1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 26 Nov 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 656       Contents:# Re: a pix to VT100 ascii converter? 5 Re: Anybody monitoring vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest ? ! Re: AS1200 setting ethernet speed ! Re: AS1200 setting ethernet speed  RE: RE: Backwards File Dump  Re: Backwards File Dump  Re: bin Laden  strikes again!  Re: BUG IN AUTOGEN.COM!!!!!! Re: BUG IN AUTOGEN.COM!!!!!!$ Re: Bugcheck in SYSMAN.EXE on reboot? Cascade button Motif widget does not take the background colour C Re: Cascade button Motif widget does not take the background colour ) RE: DCL Enhancement: PUSH/POP Environment  Re: Ghostscript  Re: Ghostscript / Re: Hobbyist license and layered products - SLS / Re: Hobbyist license and layered products - SLS / Re: Hobbyist license and layered products - SLS 6 Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from Alan Erskine?7 Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from Alan Erskine?? 5 Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from Greg Morrow? 2 Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from JF Mezei?5 Re: New maynagement software Nimbus also for OpenVMS? A Re: odd SMTP e-mail when sending to page.metrocall.com (RESOLVED)  PBXGA on AS1000 	 Re: Qio ? 	 Re: Qio ? 6 Re: question about dates of patches on ftp.itrc.hp.com RCU utility  Re: SimH: no cluster connection  Re: SimH: no cluster connection  Re: SimH: no cluster connection 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday 9 Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday  Re: TELENT in batch 4 VMS/SMTP for Dummies(tm) (was [OT] For David CATHEY) Re: Who is Alan Erskine? Re: Who is Alan Erskine??  Re: Who is Alan Erskine??  Who is Greg Morrow?  Re: Who is Greg Morrow?  Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  RE: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  RE: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL  Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL Re: Wildcard searching1 X Views: Plotting Capacity Date by David W. Bynon  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY  Re: [OT] For David CATHEY   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:09:34 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>, Subject: Re: a pix to VT100 ascii converter?4 Message-ID: <3fc45fe6$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Richard B. Gilbert wrote: J > ISTR that a gentleman named Sam Harbison wrote such a tool at Princeton K > University in the 1970's.  In fact, I think his work made the cover of a  G > national magazine.  He used an optical densitometer to determine the  K > density values of various overstrike combinations and then wrote code to  E > translate the scanned density values of a photograph to overstrike   > combinations.  > G > Sam later co-authored a book on C; I believe his co-author was named  . > Steele.  I don't know where he is now. . . .  A Here: http://www.carlow.edu/news-events/harbison_appointment.html    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2003 23:31:41 -0800% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) > Subject: Re: Anybody monitoring vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest ?= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0311252331.6a90894b@posting.google.com>   D Well, I read the group via Google and there is definitely no sign of
 any binaries.   F Another thing is that in the official cover letter of the EFT/SDK kit,F page 7, there is a paragraph about problem reporting which states that? you have to use that news group and that product management and  engineering will monitor it.  E In comp.os.vms there is also very little talk abot the E7.3-2 EFT, it $ seems there is very little interest.   Regards,  	 Bart Zorn   Z   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A296F8.D94D990D@SendSpamHere.ORG>...e > In article <8+z$gBJ+T+Rg@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: [ > >In article <3fc37dd8$0$2389$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes:  > >> Bart Zorn wrote:  > >>  F > >>> I have posted two messages on vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest aboutG > >>> OpenVMS E7.3-2 but I seem to be the only one currently using that  > >>> group. > >>>   > >>> Is anybody else listening? > >>  T > >> I think I remember that vmsnet groups are today heavily used by Spanish people R > >> to post binaries because there is no size limitation, or something like that. > > L > >No, that problem was cleared up in  vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest at leastK > >a month ago.  I too have posted in the newsgroup and not seen responses,  > M > Problem is that the damage has been done.  I've removed the VMSnet.* groups 7 > from my subscription lists because of the DIVX noise.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:37:49 +0100 : From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de>* Subject: Re: AS1200 setting ethernet speed/ Message-ID: <bq1l5i$8412@doiweb4.volkswagen.de>    VAXman- wrote:_ > In article <ZDSwb.1393$sW1.51027@news.uswest.net>, "Jim Mehlhop" <jmehlhop@qwest.net> writes:  > L >>I have acquired a used as1200 and I do not have any manuals.  How do I set= >>the first ethernet adapter to run at 100MBS or Auto detect?  >  >  > 	 > Hi Jim,  >  > At eh console prompt, enter: >  > P00>>> show e*_mode  > O > This will show you the two ethernet adaptors and their current configuration. & > To set it to 100bT Fast Full Duplex: >  > P00>>> set eia0_mode FastDF   5 ---------------------------^^ its fastFD of course...  >  > To set it to 10bT: > # > P00>>> set eia0_mode Twisted-Pair  >  > O > It's been some time since I last looked at the console but I believe the key- . > word for auto-detect is Auto or Auto-detect. >  >      --    + mit freundlichen Gren | with best regards     Karl Rohwedder		iT-Ingenieurteam$ Ellernbruch 11		D-38112 Braunschweig  E mailto:it-ingteam(at)t-online.de | mailto:rohwedder(at)decus.decus.de - mailto:extern.karl.rohwedder(at)volkswagen.de    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:52:05 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG* Subject: Re: AS1200 setting ethernet speed0 Message-ID: <00A29772.475A3F8C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  l In article <bq1l5i$8412@doiweb4.volkswagen.de>, Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> writes: >VAXman- wrote: ` >> In article <ZDSwb.1393$sW1.51027@news.uswest.net>, "Jim Mehlhop" <jmehlhop@qwest.net> writes: >>  M >>>I have acquired a used as1200 and I do not have any manuals.  How do I set > >>>the first ethernet adapter to run at 100MBS or Auto detect? >>   >>   >>  
 >> Hi Jim, >>   >> At eh console prompt, enter:  >>   >> P00>>> show e*_mode >>  P >> This will show you the two ethernet adaptors and their current configuration.' >> To set it to 100bT Fast Full Duplex:  >>   >> P00>>> set eia0_mode FastDF > 6 >---------------------------^^ its fastFD of course...  N Dyslexia... 'Tis why I try to cut-n-paste whenever I possibly can.  It's also 0 the reason I have symbols like HEPL defined too.   --  L VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 26 Nov 2003 07:06:26 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>$ Subject: RE: RE: Backwards File Dump5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dlwCf44dfgwy@localhost>   F On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:32:51 UTC, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:   Snip  N > It is neither, it is just an unfortunate shortcoming of little endian memoryK > design.  When porting code from one to the other, you must always keep an  > eye * > out for aliasing, whatever the language.  < Well I might accept 'incompatbility' but certainly not flaw.  F If you think in terms of bit fields, then processor architecture makesA its presence felt and, as Wayne says, you have to take this into  C account if you're moving code from one endianness to another. I"ve  F seen this in C code that I've maintained and had it reported to me as , a problem when moving Ada from VAX to 68040.  C The bit field manipuation instructions from LE VAX have no problem  E with little-endianness whatsoever and it wouldn't surprise me if IBM  C and Sun claim the same thing for their BE CPUs (assumimg they have  
 equivalents).   > It never ceases to amaze me how many people do not understand * endinaness (I probably don't myself 100%).  = And John B. is right - (mis-)perception is the source of the  
 confusion.   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 07:06:30 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org  Subject: Re: Backwards File Dump3 Message-ID: <nZB6MfvMzUK4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3FC3BECC.564CAFF0@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote: I >> In both big endian and little endian, integers are generally presented  >> with msb left and lsb right.  > N > They keyword here is "presented". The compiler knows that the 4 bytes storedM > beginning at memory location X are in little endian and can be displayed to  > the user with routine Y. > P > The DUMP utility doesn't know what the contents of the file are, and it has noO > way of knowing that 4 bytes at offset X from start of file are meant to be an M > integer. It has no business trying to interpret the contents of the file to 1 > try to represent them to me in a different way.   C For files on VMS, it is a good bet that binary integers in the file C are stored using a little-endian convention.  Accordingly, it makes ? sense for DUMP to display them in the conventional fashion with & the high order hex digits on the left.  E Yes, DUMP cannot know.  So the designers chose a display format based D on the assumption that binary data on the files that DUMP deals with% would be predominantly little endian.   H > I can live with VMS being little endian. I don't need nor want DUMP to- > artificially reverse the order of the dump.   0 It's not reversed.  It's the same for all files.  G Your file on disk is not a left to right array of bytes.  It is a first D to last array of bytes.  DUMP didn't reverse anything.  It chose oneA of two reasonable conventions for associating first and last with  right and left.   ? That convention is a good choice for little endian binary data.   ? That convention is a poor choice for big endian binary data and  for endian-neutral byte arrays.   N > If I see  FFFF0000 in dump, I have no way of knowing whether this is 2 wordsM > or one longword, unless I consult that program that generated that file and T > calculate offsets to see where those 4 bytes point to to know what they represent.  J Either way, if those words are little endian or if that longword is littleC endian the display produced by DUMP will display those words in hex , with the most significant digit on the left.  E If upon consulting the record definition you discover that there are, F in fact, two fields, the 0000 will map to the first field and the FFFF to the second, of course.   O > And when consulting documentation on a file's format, the data is represented 1 > in ascending order from the start of the file.    	 Yes.  So?   O > And in the western world, ascending order means left to right and then top to L > bottom. There is no endianness in a file. However, a file may contain someP > binary data here and there that is stored in a particular endianness. The TIFFI > file format comes to mind, since a TIFF file can be generated in either P > endianness. So when you dump a TIFF file, you must look at the first couple ofU > bytes to determine how binary values in the rest of the file should be interpreted.   E Your point being that DUMP's display choice means that field order in G the display is right to left and that this flies in the face of western  convention.   F Yes.  We're aware of that.  That is the price that you pay for getting7 little endian integers to display with msb on the left.   O > However, once you get to the stream of bytes that represent the image itself, H > there is no endianness. The endianness in the TIFF file applies to theM > integers that contain flags, offsets from start of file etc. Should DUMP be O > aware of the TIFF format and automaticall switch frm displaying right-to-left P > to -left-to-right when it gets to a portion of the file that is endian-neutral. > because it is a stream of individual bytes ?  B No.  It should not.  It should be consistent, presenting all filesF and all parts of files in the same fashion.  It should not have arcaneE rules for reversing its display format when it thinks it has detected F big endian data.  I don't want to have to second guess my dump tool in$ order to tell what's really on disk.  @ If you want to design a TIFF dump tool with some of these smarts built in, feel free.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:40:43 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>& Subject: Re: bin Laden  strikes again!- Message-ID: <87isl7639w.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ' Dick Locke <dlocke@spamcop.net> writes:   D > You know, I'm not a Bush supporter to put it mildly, and I do tendF > to think he's a major threat, but nobody seems to be able to come upA > with a web cite to this alleged survey, so it doesn't have much  > credibility. A pity, really.  7 Try the BBC, and if that is no go, search commondreams,    http://www.commondreams.org/  
 or znet/zmag.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:07:10 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)% Subject: Re: BUG IN AUTOGEN.COM!!!!!! $ Message-ID: <bq1mve$h58$1@online.de>  F In article <0gt4svc3kdh1aqt9d6b6c9o45mmdeamin9@4ax.com>, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:     > $SYSMAN = "$SYSMAN"  > $DEFINE/USER sysmanini nl: > $DEFINE/USER sys$error nl: > $DEFINE/USER sys$output nl:  > $SYSMAN IO autoconfigure > P > The DEFINE/USER SYSMANINI NL: should be sufficient (it seems to me) to preventO > your file from being executed -- the logical name SYSMANINI should "override" > > the existence of your file. I'm not sure what I'm missing...  3 I'm not sure either.  I can only say that if I have C SYS$LOGIN:SYSMANINI.INI, it gets executed.  Can you reproduce this?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:07:03 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>% Subject: Re: BUG IN AUTOGEN.COM!!!!!! 8 Message-ID: <82n9svopqkei89n15904a4mev2e5b8cuff@4ax.com>  I On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:07:10 +0000 (UTC), helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de 1 (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote:   G >In article <0gt4svc3kdh1aqt9d6b6c9o45mmdeamin9@4ax.com>, David M Smith  ><dsmit115@csc.com> writes:  >  >> $SYSMAN = "$SYSMAN" >> $DEFINE/USER sysmanini nl:  >> $DEFINE/USER sys$error nl:  >> $DEFINE/USER sys$output nl: >> $SYSMAN IO autoconfigure  >>  Q >> The DEFINE/USER SYSMANINI NL: should be sufficient (it seems to me) to prevent P >> your file from being executed -- the logical name SYSMANINI should "override"? >> the existence of your file. I'm not sure what I'm missing...  > 4 >I'm not sure either.  I can only say that if I haveD >SYS$LOGIN:SYSMANINI.INI, it gets executed.  Can you reproduce this?  M No, I cannot reproduce your behavior on V7.3-1 (I don't have access to a V7.3 / system). Here is the output from my experiment:    $ dir sys$login:sysmanini.ini    Directory USER1:[xxxxxx]  L SYSMANINI.INI;1            1/9        26-NOV-2003 11:58:09.56  (RWED,RWED,,)   Total of 1 file, 1/9 blocks. $ ty sys$login:sysmanini.ini show environment $ sysman+ %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment:          Local node only  SYSMAN> exit $ define/user sysmanini nl:  $ sysman SYSMAN> exit $ sysman+ %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment:          Local node only  SYSMAN> exit $   K I created a SYSMANINI.INI file with one command in it. Executing it with no N special environment set, the command is executed as shown by the output I-ENV.L Then, I defined SYSMANINI to refer to the null device, and try again -- thisN time, no output so the .ini file was not executed. Finally, I ran SYSMAN a 3rdP time, and since the user-mode logical was automatically deassigned after the 2nd3 execution of SYSMAN, I got the I-ENV message again.   I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------   Date: 26 Nov 2003 16:41:02 GMT% From: ejheller@aol.com.com (EJHeller) - Subject: Re: Bugcheck in SYSMAN.EXE on reboot : Message-ID: <20031126114102.00773.00001113@mb-m28.aol.com>  M Thanks for all the responses. It appears to be a parity error from one of the   PCI boards. HP is addressing it.M My next question is - If this is the problem and the error log can record it, N why can't the displayed message reflect this instead of pointing to a program? Edward.    >SYSMAN.EXE on reboot % >From: "Mike Naime" mnaime@kc.rr.com  0 >Date: 11/20/2003 10:44 PM Eastern Standard Time9 >Message-id: <kSfvb.58023$Eq1.1453@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>  > F >If you are seeing  the following, this means that you have a hardwareM >problem and need to get it fixed!  Sending (FTP) the ERRLOG.SYS file that is L >in the SYS$ERRLOG: directory to HP will let the hardware group diagnose the >exact problem.  > B >**** OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System V7.3-1   - BUGCHECK **** > L >** Bugcheck code = 00000215: MACHINECHK, Machine check while in kernel mode > M >INITing the box is only masking the problem.  If it is a NEW DS10, it should  >still be under warranty.  >  >Mike Naime  > 1 >EJHeller <ejheller@aol.com.com> wrote in message 5 >news:20031120144834.10071.00000629@mb-m01.aol.com... F >> We have a new DS10 with OVMS 7.3.1 with all the latest and greatest	 >critical I >> patches. Since we turned it on, every time we do a shutdown/reboot the  >system K >> bugchecks in SYSMAN.EXE with a code of 215 (process = STARTUP). The only F >> recovery is to manually halt the machine and issue an INIT from the >maintenance? >> prompt, then boot the computer. We could work around by do a  >shutdown/noreboot6 >> and the issue the boot from the maintenance prompt.H >> In looking at the patch site, I saw there is a patch for MANAGER. So,
 >being theH >> psuedo-adventurous sort, I installed this patch. Now any boot after a	 >shutdown - >> requires an INIT before a successful boot. 0 >> Has anyone seen this problem and resolved it? >> Thanks for your input,  >> Edward Heller >> TransCore ITS, Inc " >> edward.heller@transcore-.-com..   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:50:25 +0100 & From: Sorin Costea <soterro@yahoo.com>H Subject: Cascade button Motif widget does not take the background colour9 Message-ID: <3fc46952$0$238$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>    Hello,  B I'm recmpiling some Motif (using also UIL) code which was running B prefectly on VMS 6.x now on VMS 7.2-1 which is having Motif 1.2-5.  D As the title says, I'm having this annoying problem which makes the D application look very ugly: I can change all the colours everywhere A _except_ for the background of the XmCascadeButton, whether it's  E highlighted or not. The foreground changes fine, so the borders. The  F background is always the one inherited... This makes the menu bar and J the popup menus within it looking bad, is there anything that I'm missing?  G Is there another property than XmNbackground (and XmNhighlight) that I  G should use in it? Is there any attribute/property (in the creation, in  G the UIL file) that might be overriding the values I do programatically   set at runtime?   
 Thank you, S    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:28:38 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>L Subject: Re: Cascade button Motif widget does not take the background colour) Message-ID: <3FC48047.C6F39F5E@istop.com>    Sorin Costea wrote: E > application look very ugly: I can change all the colours everywhere B > _except_ for the background of the XmCascadeButton, whether it'sF > highlighted or not. The foreground changes fine, so the borders. TheG > background is always the one inherited... This makes the menu bar and L > the popup menus within it looking bad, is there anything that I'm missing?  I Have you tried to set the colour attributes in the XmMenuBar object which ' controls the XmCascadeButton children ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:16:49 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 2 Subject: RE: DCL Enhancement: PUSH/POP Environment9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOELOIIAA.tom@kednos.com>   ) Thanks to Hunter, I finally got it right.   K >>have a look at ftp://freja.kednos.com/pub/misc/pd.com then if you put it  3 >>in your login dir, put the following in login.com  >>$ >>$ POPD == "@SYS$LOGIN:PD.COM POPD"% >>$ PD   == "@SYS$LOGIN:PD.COM PUSHD"  >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- 7 >>>From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] - >>>Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:02 AM  >>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com5 >>>Subject: Re: DCL Enhancement: PUSH/POP Environment  >>>  >>> E >>>In article <3FBBBEC1.AE19D599@applied-synergy.com>, Chris Scheers  & >>><chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:K >>>> There has been some recent discussion of having the capability to save F >>>> and restore the entire DCL/Terminal/etc. environment in one shot. >>>>  > >>>> A mechanism that I have seen elsewhere is a CLI PUSH/POP  >capability thatF >>>> does this.  PUSH saves the current environment, POP restores it. 6 >>>> Obviously, the environments are saved as a stack. >>>>  B >>>> The environment that is saved should include at least the DCLE >>>> environment, RMS environment, terminal characteristics (if any), E >>>> symbols, and PPF logicals (possibly all supervisor process table  >>>> logicals?). >>> % >>>We have this.  It is called SPAWN.  >>>  >>>---) >>>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. = >>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). C >>>Version: 6.0.536 / Virus Database: 331 - Release Date: 11/3/2003  >>>  >>--- ( >>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B >>Version: 6.0.536 / Virus Database: 331 - Release Date: 11/3/2003 >> >---' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.536 / Virus Database: 331 - Release Date: 11/3/2003  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 11/18/2003    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:58:00 +0000 0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> Subject: Re: Ghostscript4 Message-ID: <bq1puo$r4g$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   Paul Hodson wrote: > Hi,  > M > Does anyone have experience with using ghostscript on openvms to convert ps 	 > to pdf?   D We recently switched from Distiller to Ghostscript (on a Mac): it's E vastly superior - much much faster, infinitely more reliable, and of   course free.  E Compiling it for VMS, last time I looked, was hard work. The version  I shipped with DPD Goldfax (very old) has some problematic leaks which DPD  H are unable or unwilling to address. IF you can sort out the compilation * issues, it's probably a very good product.   Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:54:30 +0100 ' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>  Subject: Re: Ghostscript2 Message-ID: <3FC4A286.4010005@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>   Chris Sharman wrote: > Paul Hodson wrote: >  >> Hi, >>D >> Does anyone have experience with using ghostscript on openvms to  [snip] > G > Compiling it for VMS, last time I looked, was hard work. The version  K > shipped with DPD Goldfax (very old) has some problematic leaks which DPD  J > are unable or unwilling to address. IF you can sort out the compilation , > issues, it's probably a very good product. > C A more recent version on a recent version of VMS ( I tested it for  & Alpha) should compile "out of the box" See for more info my web-page:B    http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/software2.html#GhostScript           Jouk   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2003 23:51:52 -0800% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) 8 Subject: Re: Hobbyist license and layered products - SLS= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0311252351.490bafea@posting.google.com>   D I am not sure if ABS is included in the hobbyist licenses (I have toD look at my system at home), but if it is, I would recommend that you$ have a look at that in stead of SLS.   Regards,  	 Bart Zorn   k denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny) wrote in message news:<2a9d9498.0311250759.12091a13@posting.google.com>... _ > hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<_Tswb.9601$nj5.1216@news.cpqcorp.net>... j > > In article <2a9d9498.0311241015.608f15cb@posting.google.com>, denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny) writes:C > > :> Montagar CD? Specifically I'm interested in COBOL and Notes.  > > . > >   Notes is on Freeware V6.0, with license. > > K > > :Is there an Alpha hobbyist license for SLS (Storage Library System)?   H > > :I've got the CD, but I didn't see a license in the email that came  > > :from Montagar.  > > L > >   SLS is an older product and (AFAIK) isn't a product offered to OpenVMSN > >   hobbyists.  SLS is assumed of interest only to our commercial customers,. > >   in other words, and not to hobbyists.    > > L > >   FWIW, a basic remote BACKUP procedure is available in the OpenVMS FAQ. > >  > > R > >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------O > >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq R > >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------I > >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com  > D > The reason i ask, is that last week, I came across a TZ88 that wasC > being discarded (yes, you heard that right).  I asked for and was G > given permission to carry it out to the dumpster.  So now I have this H > thing plugged into my BA356, and I can run backups. I thought it would, > be fun to use SLS to maintain the catalog. > E > This all assumes my Sandpiper doesn't croak. And I guess a hobbyist F > with an almost current DLT is a bit unusual. But then 3 months ago IF > would have laughed if you told me I would have to move my "VMS shop"> > off the dining room table so we can eat Thanksgiving dinner! > @ > Is there anyone I can talk to about getting a SLS-MGR license? >  > thanks >  > denny    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 07:37:30 -0800& From: denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny)8 Subject: Re: Hobbyist license and layered products - SLS= Message-ID: <2a9d9498.0311260737.64c28d5c@posting.google.com>   j Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) wrote in message news:<a98cd882.0311252351.490bafea@posting.google.com>...F > I am not sure if ABS is included in the hobbyist licenses (I have toF > look at my system at home), but if it is, I would recommend that you& > have a look at that in stead of SLS. > 
 > Regards, >  > Bart Zorn  > m > denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny) wrote in message news:<2a9d9498.0311250759.12091a13@posting.google.com>... a > > hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<_Tswb.9601$nj5.1216@news.cpqcorp.net>... l > > > In article <2a9d9498.0311241015.608f15cb@posting.google.com>, denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny) writes:E > > > :> Montagar CD? Specifically I'm interested in COBOL and Notes.  > > > 0 > > >   Notes is on Freeware V6.0, with license. > > > M > > > :Is there an Alpha hobbyist license for SLS (Storage Library System)?   J > > > :I've got the CD, but I didn't see a license in the email that came  > > > :from Montagar.  > > > N > > >   SLS is an older product and (AFAIK) isn't a product offered to OpenVMSP > > >   hobbyists.  SLS is assumed of interest only to our commercial customers,0 > > >   in other words, and not to hobbyists.    > > > N > > >   FWIW, a basic remote BACKUP procedure is available in the OpenVMS FAQ. > > >  > > > T > > >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------Q > > >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq T > > >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------K > > >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com  > > F > > The reason i ask, is that last week, I came across a TZ88 that wasE > > being discarded (yes, you heard that right).  I asked for and was I > > given permission to carry it out to the dumpster.  So now I have this J > > thing plugged into my BA356, and I can run backups. I thought it would. > > be fun to use SLS to maintain the catalog. > > G > > This all assumes my Sandpiper doesn't croak. And I guess a hobbyist H > > with an almost current DLT is a bit unusual. But then 3 months ago IH > > would have laughed if you told me I would have to move my "VMS shop"@ > > off the dining room table so we can eat Thanksgiving dinner! > > B > > Is there anyone I can talk to about getting a SLS-MGR license? > > 
 > > thanks > > 	 > > denny   E After your tip, I looked. NO ABS  license in the hobbyist kit. What's D a hobbyist to do?  They included Shadowing and Clustering (the crown? jewels of VMS) but no way to play with organized backup.  Hmmm.   E Is there anyone at HP who might listen to a request for either SLS or  ABS?   Tia    Denny    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 08:09:14 -0800. From: al5vf03p02@sneakemail.com (William Webb)8 Subject: Re: Hobbyist license and layered products - SLS= Message-ID: <d5ce4b06.0311260809.3c459b1d@posting.google.com>   k denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny) wrote in message news:<2a9d9498.0311241015.608f15cb@posting.google.com>... f > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<IDELIOKNLCICKNEPNOFAMEGDCKAA.tom@kednos.com>...D > > You also need the license for the layered products.  Please noteG > > that PL/I is not on the Hobbyist distribution, but you can download  >  > [  S N I P  ]  > @ > > Montagar CD? Specifically I'm interested in COBOL and Notes. > > 4 > > Any help for this newbie is greatly appreciated!
 > > slaX0r > H > Is there an Alpha hobbyist license for SLS (Storage Library System)?  S > I've got the CD, but I didn't see a license in the email that came from Montagar.  >  > TIA, > Denny   @ I don't know if my email got to you so I'll repost to the group:  B The current VMS enterprise backup product is called Archive Backup System (ABS)  6 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/storage/abspage.html  E Besides the fact that a license for it isn't included in the hobbyist C program, it's really designed for sites with multislot tape storage : devices and (usually but not always) multiple tape drives.  D I use ABS now and can say that its learning curve is formidable, butC once you get a handle on it, you can make your tape library do just69 about everything except fetch your coffee in the morning.i  1 Your configuration has 1 tape drive and 1 slot.  v  F I've got 6 and 45 to handle a cluster of AlphaServers and about 1.5 TB8 of storage- and no, that's not my hobbyist system.   :^)  ? It would be overkill to say that ABS would be overkill for your 
 situation.  D If you're wanting to go one step up from one drive/one slot backups,/ I'd suggest that you try to track down a TZ875.h  B It's got a little 5-slot magazine on it and then you could use MRUD (Media Robot Utility) as part of your backup procedure to move tapes around.p   WWWebb   ========================! William W. Webb- EMS Operations, e OpenVMS Systems Support % USPS DSSC Annex - 4730 Hargrove Road n( Raleigh, NC 27616-2874 919.325.7500x4186E * * * -      email is first initial last name at email stop usps stop  govr   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 18:35:17 +0100) From: George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it>r? Subject: Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from Alan Erskine?O; Message-ID: <b69f8c26304f1ccc0d5460213f7c8464@mixmaster.it>c  C Alan Erskine trolling as bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear) wrote:a  , >Or is he just Michael Jackson's love child?  I Typical Alan Erskine psycho behavior - complains endlessly about "trolls"eO posting through google under pseudonyms, no accountability, blah blah blah, andd here he is doing the same.  O Remember the "Executioner", Alan?  You threatened to kill an entire family.....    About Alan Erskine u   alanerskine@optusnet.com.aum  G Alan Erskine is a well known Australian netkook, psychopath, and cowardnJ who lives in Melbourne.  He usually stalks and harasses the posters of theK sci.space groups, although he is known to make excursions into a wide range-K of other groups for the purposes of trolling and stalking and harassing theeK participants there.  He is currently under investigation by the authorities = in Australia.  If you fall victim to his frequent attacks andCI stalking/harassment campaigns, like so many in the sci.space groups have,a9 notify abuse@optusnet.com.au .  This psycho is dangerous.   H Most sane participants have been forced to killfile him for his frequentJ violent outbursts at posters and his unrelenting attacks.  Some are taking legal action against him.L  G Here are just a few of his victims.  He has been stalking and harrasing?F Scott and Betty Grissom relentlessly.  Scott Grissom is the son of GusG Grissom, the second American in space, who died in an Apollo 1 trainingD3 exercise fire, and Betty Grissom, 75, is his widow.   E Alan has also been waging long-time stalking and harassment campaignsWJ against other well-known members of the space community, including RichardG Katz of NASA, John Maxson, and his sons Paul and Daniel Maxson.  He haseA even gone so far as to threaten to kill the entire Maxson family.e  H He has been known to stalk his victims anonymously and via sock puppets,J showing what a coward he is.  Furthermore, he likes to challenge people toF fights, telling them to come to Melbourne and look him up in the phoneH book, while having admitted elsewhere that he is not listed in the phone book.  Coward!  H Alan is an enemy of freedom of speech and hates remailers, which serve aJ useful and necessary purpose.  He has resorted to impersonating others andK even himself through remailers in an effort to discredit remailers and makewK it look like others were attacking him through them.  He regularly bombardseJ remailer operators with hysterical complaints and threats and floods their
 mailboxes.  K Alan is currently on one of his psychotic crusades, this time to get people I to killfile posts from remailers in order to prevent word of his misdeedslI from getting out.  Alan is a Nazi, he wants to be able to say whatever heoG wants about others but doesn't want anyone to mention him.  He wants tosF express himself freely but wants to shut others up and, not only that,J wants others to do as he says, read only the messages he approves of, etc.D He wants to police, rule, and control newsgroups and people like the% perfect little jackbooted Nazi he is.A  D Alan is not just content to harass his victims in the newsgroups, heJ usually also stalks them via email.  If you find yourself on the receivingD end of Alan's famous psychotic emails, contact abuse@optusnet.com.auB immediately, as well as the law enforcement agencies in Melbourne,B Australia.  This psycho is very violent.  Do not attempt to reasonD with him yourself, many others have tried and he does not respond to+ reason.  Let the authorities deal with him.    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:10:04 +0100 (CET)s% From: Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>n@ Subject: Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from Alan Erskine??8 Message-ID: <b69f8c26304f1ccc0d5460213f7c8464@dizum.com>  C Alan Erskine trolling as bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear) wrote:r  , >Or is he just Michael Jackson's love child?  I Typical Alan Erskine psycho behavior - complains endlessly about "trolls" O posting through google under pseudonyms, no accountability, blah blah blah, and3 here he is doing the same.  O Remember the "Executioner", Alan?  You threatened to kill an entire family.....    About Alan Erskine r   alanerskine@optusnet.com.aut  G Alan Erskine is a well known Australian netkook, psychopath, and cowardsJ who lives in Melbourne.  He usually stalks and harasses the posters of theK sci.space groups, although he is known to make excursions into a wide rangehK of other groups for the purposes of trolling and stalking and harassing thehK participants there.  He is currently under investigation by the authoritiesp= in Australia.  If you fall victim to his frequent attacks and-I stalking/harassment campaigns, like so many in the sci.space groups have,x9 notify abuse@optusnet.com.au .  This psycho is dangerous.t  H Most sane participants have been forced to killfile him for his frequentJ violent outbursts at posters and his unrelenting attacks.  Some are taking legal action against him.t  G Here are just a few of his victims.  He has been stalking and harrasingoF Scott and Betty Grissom relentlessly.  Scott Grissom is the son of GusG Grissom, the second American in space, who died in an Apollo 1 training>3 exercise fire, and Betty Grissom, 75, is his widow.h  E Alan has also been waging long-time stalking and harassment campaignssJ against other well-known members of the space community, including RichardG Katz of NASA, John Maxson, and his sons Paul and Daniel Maxson.  He hassA even gone so far as to threaten to kill the entire Maxson family.a  H He has been known to stalk his victims anonymously and via sock puppets,J showing what a coward he is.  Furthermore, he likes to challenge people toF fights, telling them to come to Melbourne and look him up in the phoneH book, while having admitted elsewhere that he is not listed in the phone book.  Coward!  H Alan is an enemy of freedom of speech and hates remailers, which serve aJ useful and necessary purpose.  He has resorted to impersonating others andK even himself through remailers in an effort to discredit remailers and makeCK it look like others were attacking him through them.  He regularly bombardshJ remailer operators with hysterical complaints and threats and floods their
 mailboxes.  K Alan is currently on one of his psychotic crusades, this time to get people:I to killfile posts from remailers in order to prevent word of his misdeedswI from getting out.  Alan is a Nazi, he wants to be able to say whatever he G wants about others but doesn't want anyone to mention him.  He wants to F express himself freely but wants to shut others up and, not only that,J wants others to do as he says, read only the messages he approves of, etc.D He wants to police, rule, and control newsgroups and people like the% perfect little jackbooted Nazi he is.y  D Alan is not just content to harass his victims in the newsgroups, heJ usually also stalks them via email.  If you find yourself on the receivingD end of Alan's famous psychotic emails, contact abuse@optusnet.com.auB immediately, as well as the law enforcement agencies in Melbourne,B Australia.  This psycho is very violent.  Do not attempt to reasonD with him yourself, many others have tried and he does not respond to+ reason.  Let the authorities deal with him.n   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 02:00:34 -0800) From: bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear) > Subject: Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from Greg Morrow?= Message-ID: <8fe0acb8.0311260200.33cbf386@posting.google.com>r  + Or is he just Michael Jackson's love child?l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:02:26 GMTt0 From: "DALing" <daling43[delete]-at-hotmail.com>; Subject: Re: How do they deliver a newsgroup from JF Mezei?l( Message-ID: <HoysG1.I5x@news.boeing.com>   nah, it's fun to respond  + "sigh" <what.a@maroon.com> wrote in messagee3 news:R63GHQ6X37951.1529513889@Gilgamesh-frog.org...i) > James Robinson <wascana@212.com> wrote:  >  > >nobody wrote: > >>K > >> A concorde just crossed the atlantic BY BARGE.  Another donation to anl > >> american museum.  > >tF > >Hardly.  It was barged all the way from JFK airport to the Intrepid > >museum in Manhattan.e > I > Mezei knows this full well.  He is just TROLLING you.  Really, how manyt times do  > you suckers have to be told??? >.D > Or is it that you just enjoy being trolled by a very poor Canadian imitation of > Michael Jackson? >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:02:13 +0000gO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>@> Subject: Re: New maynagement software Nimbus also for OpenVMS?0 Message-ID: <bq2bpv$pna$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 14:28:04 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  >  >>jlsue wrote: >>H >>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:31:37 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >>><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:a >>>d >>>y >>>  >>>>Rudolf Wingert wrote:. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Hello,d >>>>>kT >>>>>today I red, that HP will produce a new management software called Nimbus. ThisQ >>>>>software should function on Windows, Linux und HP-UX. I did not red anythingiS >>>>>about OpenVMS. But the mention should be: one managment software, one look ande% >>>>>feel for it on all OS platforms.  >>>>>t >>>>@ >>>>You have to admire a company that names a management product2 >>>>after a broomstick used by a fictional wizard. >>>> >>>m >>>hE >>>Hey Andrew, try a google search of Nimbus.  You might get a little 
 >>>education.t >>>. >># >>Hey Jeff try reading Harry Potter  >> >  > + > As if I could avoid seeing it everywhere.hM > But your implied assumption is that Harry Potter is the only source of that  > name.  It's not... >   8 Don't be an A*SE it was a joke of course there are other sources for the word Nimbus.  < However HP are the intials of both Hewlett Packard and Harry- Potter hence the Nimbus broomstick reference.s   Regards  Andrew HarrisonD   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:38:57 -0600o( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)J Subject: Re: odd SMTP e-mail when sending to page.metrocall.com (RESOLVED)1 Message-ID: <03112608385742@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>a  J >> I thought MX records were supposed to be for _incoming_ email handlers.. >> Perhaps Metrocall is doing something wrong. > O > I believe MetroCall is attempting to backward resolve the server name - as innM > a reverse lookup DNS - in an effort to control SPAM.  From what I have beene	 > told...   > Actually our ISP holds the MX record - which would make sense.  * MetroCall attempts to validate the e-mail.  @ > Ok, but that is an entirely different issue from an MX record. > The proper test would be:i3 > 	Does this IP address have a reverse DNS name and 5 > 	does that reverse DNS name forward resolve to thisi& > 	IP address (possibly among others).! > Any test more severe is flawed.e  C Yes, for MetroCall but not for the ISP.  And that is all they do.  d  J > Exactly- but they should be trying to  resolve to an A name, not an MX. K > Assuming that any given organization's incoming and outgoing mailservers n- > are the same box(es) is asking for trouble.   4 The ISP holds the MX, MetroCall attempts to resolve.  M We have opted to funnel the other servers through one address that is alreadyn5 existing.  Limit the number of holes in the firewall.p       J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*nt VMS Systems Administratore* firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:44:36 -0700y% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>  Subject: PBXGA on AS1000B Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031126073855.01f409c8@raptor.psccos.com>  I I have an AS1000 5/300 with a plain old 2mb ATI Mach card in it, VMS 7.3. F I want to use a PBXGA CA/CN card (stamped on the card bulkhead) that'sE been running fine in an AS200 4/233.  I put the card in the 1000, andnF all is fine until DECwindows starts.  Then, I get the stylized "X" forH the server, the screen background turns green, and nothing else happens.   Any ideas, anybody?a   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Nov 2003 23:58:36 -0800- From: denis.fayaud@netspace.mc (Denis Fayaud)e Subject: Re: Qio ?= Message-ID: <93820504.0311252358.1d4aab06@posting.google.com>3  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3FC338C0.75D5DA38@istop.com>...   i  > The solution is documented at:C > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/5639/5639motifpro_005.html   >    Oh yes you're right!( I tried these routines a few months ago.> It's OK to trap broadcast messages but at that time I could'ntF configure the QIO's parameters to display the messages coming from the3 serial line (via a Decserver).That was the problem.h How can we achieve that ?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:32:48 -0500c* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> Subject: Re: Qio ?) Message-ID: <3FC47335.6C021286@istop.com>    Denis Fayaud wrote: @ > It's OK to trap broadcast messages but at that time I could'ntH > configure the QIO's parameters to display the messages coming from the5 > serial line (via a Decserver).That was the problem.y  N The manual formerly known as the IO User's Guide has a section on the terminal! driver as well as the LAT driver.i  C Sending data is easy, you know how many bytes to send and just to aB4 IO$WRITEVBLK with the buffer specifying those bytes.  A Receiving is not so obvious as it depends greatly on your device.D  L The terminal driver supports terminator characters. You can define a mask ofM characters that will terminate a read io.  For instance, if the remote device K ends its response with a CR-LF, you could put the LF character in the mask.uJ This way, as soon as the remote device sends you a message, the IO request will complete.  L Another option is to read one character with no timeout (will wait forever).I When you get that character, you then issue a second read IO with a largeIM buffer, but with a short timeout. Once the line becomes iddle for the timeout-N value, the read completes and you get as many character as had been sent prior to the timeout.   I Another option is to have a separate timer  (SYS$SETIMR) that has smallervJ timout values and when that timeout happens, you issue a SYS$CANCEL to theM channel where you issued the READ IO. The READ IO then completes with however " many characters had been received.    F In terms of interfacing to your X application, the QIO has two ways of> signaling that it has completed: event flags and AST routines.  L And AST is convenient since it allows some of your code to execute some codeH right away (even if the main loop is stuck waiting for an X event).  ForI instance, you can preprocess the received data, verify, and if the remoteIM device requires some form of acknowledgement send it. Then, you set an ecventg  flag which triggers the X event.  M The other way is to have the QIO set the event flag by itself. The X softwareuO will then call your routine (callback) which can then fetch the io information.a   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:15:51 +0000 (UTC)oP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)? Subject: Re: question about dates of patches on ftp.itrc.hp.com1$ Message-ID: <bq1nfm$h58$2@online.de>  C In article <xoTwb.32759$m84.4625552@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Geogee, Pagliarulo <georgepag@adelphia.net> writes:   K > 	We found a problem with the checksums in all the kits that had checksum cK > information in the docs.  Turns out that the copying a file  changes the  K > checksum.  If the last bit after the end of file is null, COPY will zero pI > it (FTP does the same thing).  Since the checksum is added to the docs .I > before the file is copied, all the sums were wrong.  All the kits were h4 > corrected and the checksums should now be correct.H > Whic kit did you recently download that had a mis-matched checksum in 
 > the readme?s  F I think it was TCPIP 5.3 for ALPHA.  I just downloaded the patch, not H the readme.  It now seems that this patch has disappeared from the ITRC 
 server!  Why?S  1 The checksum I have for the file I downloaded is s  !   CHECKSUM$CHECKSUM = "875591030"t  = (for the decompressed DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0503-182-4.PCSI).-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:54:33 -0700-% From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>6 Subject: RCU utilityB Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031126095346.01f65dc0@raptor.psccos.com>  C Anybody have a source for this?  I just acquired an AS1000 that has B a SWXCR controller in it, and I need to be able to reconfigure it.0 Apparently, the only way is via the RCU utility.   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:24:17 +0100t" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>( Subject: Re: SimH: no cluster connection4 Message-ID: <3fc46359$0$17089$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  	 Hi Peter,    Peter Sutter wrote:   L  > I am emulating a cluster (OpenVMS 7.1 and OpenVMS 6.2) each running under > SimH on a linux box. >  tJ > Check if the SimH cluster member can connect to the rest of the network.  P Yes, it does fine, via DECnet and TCP/IP. I actually work on the "SimH station" O either via SET HOST from my Alpha, or via TELNET from the host PC (because the cK SimH operator console utility has no history buffer - Lostdows XP version).o  H > I assume the box running SimH is a Linux/Unix machine with one networkL > interface only. If so, the network card must run in promiscuous mode, i.e. > SimH must run under root.>  P The host is a Presario/WXP. It has one interface. I do not know what "run under  root" means.  M > This has one drawback, the emulated VMS can not connect to the machine SimHt3 > runs on. If you need this, you need a second NIC.d  P I can telnet/FTP from/to my Presario to/from SimH without problem, as I gave to  SimH a different IP address.  . > Here are my entries in the SimH startup file- > ; The network uses eth0 in promiscuous moder > attach xq eth0 > set xq mac=08-00-2B-AA-BB-CC  
 Here is mine:.( ; Attach Ethernet to a network interface att xq eth0  set xq mac=00-08-02-63-29-F1   Any other suggestion?. Many thanks,   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:35:57 +0800c( From: Peter Sutter <nospam@sopac.com.au>( Subject: Re: SimH: no cluster connection< Message-ID: <3fc4ac7c$0$1742$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au>   Didier,.  I It is such a long time since I really used OpenVMS, I remember things notnG anymore accurately. If you can access the network with tcpip and decnettI from the emulated OpenVMS, then the network is up and running. But wasn't K there something like set service enable on either the circuit or line levelrH under decnet, one had to enable it for remote boot and clustering on all, nodes participating in clustering and boot?   # $mc ncp set circ qna-0 service ena?   - The configuration of your NIC looks ok to me.    Peterg   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:14:25 +0800a, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>( Subject: Re: SimH: no cluster connection- Message-ID: <874qwr3vda.fsf@prep.synonet.com>-  * Peter Sutter <nospam@sopac.com.au> writes:  @ > This has one drawback, the emulated VMS can not connect to the@ > machine SimH runs on. If you need this, you need a second NIC.  < Since Vax emulation is going to be of increasing importance,= how about back porting the Galaxy memory port driver to Vaxenu1 so you can run that for clustering with the host?e   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.t@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:09:20 -05003* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <Uc6dnfrQz4EAzFmiRVn-sQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:5+nZaL7PLhgf@eisner.encompasserve.org... @ > In article <zKedncFhovmVRF6iRVn-sw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >D< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:1e0Ge5c8Eb90@eisner.encompasserve.org...lC > >> In article <EfOdnfFBCbpXX16i4p2dnA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"0$ > > <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >> >? > >> > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message 4 > >> > news:GndLTSmqlLxw@eisner.encompasserve.org... > >s > > ...  > ><= > >> >  should become a 24, 48, 96 MByte L3 on IA64.  Turn itcB > >> >> point-to-point and worst case 2-hop latency (8-way server)I > >> >> shouldn't be more than 30-40 nanoseconds access for a cache line.i > >> >I > >> > BFD.  Opteron's *memory* latency isn't much higher than that - and  its J > >> > *remote* memory latency not much more than double that.  That's whyE > >> > humongous caches are becoming *less* important in anything butd systemsn > > soF > >> > large that avoiding inter-module bus activity becomes critical. > >> > > >> > >> Well ... it is. > >i > > No, it's not.s > >i6 > >   If it was close, I wouldn't quibble, but here is > >> what it is for a 4-way: > >>* > >> http://www.devx.com/amd/Article/17580 > >>K > >> A unique benefit to the Opteron processor (and other AMD64 processors). isL > >> Coherent HyperTransport Technology for glueless multiprocessor systems,	 > > whichiD > >> eliminates Northbridge contention, minimizing memory latency in > > multi-processor6I > >> systems. In fact, between-processor memory latencies are under 105ns  foriL > >> dual-processor platforms, and under 140ns for four-processor platforms. > >)I > > And the previous paragraph notes that local memory latency *today* is  underuI > > 60 ns. - which, just as I said, isn't all that much higher in realityp todayg< > > than the hypothetical end-of-this-decade 30 ns. - 40 ns. remote-cache-access I > > figure you provided.  Nor is 105 ns. - again, *today* - all that muchr moreH > > than double that hypothetical figure.  140 ns. is starting to become moreF > > significant, but that number should drop markedly by the time your5 > > hypothetical platforms arrives - if it ever does.t > >p >m, > Why bring up single processor performance?  G Because it's of interest when comparing access times.  Having 768 MB ofuE aggregate combined fast L3 cache sounds pretty impressive - until youpB compare it against 8 GB (today) to perhaps 64 GB (by the time yourF hypothetical large-aggregate-L3 configuration might actually exist) ofL nearly-as-fast local main memory, let alone 32 GB (today) to 256 GB (at that: hypothetical future date) of nearly-as-fast remote memory.     I'm saying an 8-way-A > could do 30-40 ns versus 4-way of 140 ns.  Also, as clock speed.A > increases remote cache speed decreases.  EV7 has load to use of0( > 15 ns for remote cache line (one hop).  E You're off by close to an order of magnitude.  *Local* L2 load-to-useiK latency is 12 cycles (just over 10 ns.).  Best-case *one-way communication*SG latency is about 18 ns. (i.e., each additional hop adds about 36 ns. tolF load-to-use latency), but when you add in the on-chip contributions toK latency at the two end-points a hit in another processor's L2 cache one hopoL away has about 100 ns. load-to-use latency (only about 33 ns. faster than anH access to that processor's RAM; all these figures are from the excellentL white paper "Performance Analysis of Alphaserver GS1280" from last January).     Double the clock speed@ > and those same 15 clock cycles to lock and load remotely turns' > into 7.5 ns remote cache line access.   K Communication latencies really aren't affected by clock speed, Rob:  it's a8L speed-of-light/signal integrity thing.  But all this does highlight the factH that your original assumption (30 - 40 ns. Itanic inter-cache latencies,F which you compared unfavorably with AMD64 remote memory latencies) wasH radically wrong to start with:  as EV7 demonstrates, hitting in a remoteK cache doesn't have all that much less latency than hitting in remote memoryp in the same location.    ...a  0 > But they have poor latencies.  SPARCing it up: > J > Considering that the Sun Fire 15K can support as much as half a terabyte ofJ > memory in a single domain, it is extremely important that data be stored as& > close to the processors as possible. >aJ > For example, when the CPUs feed off data within their own Uniboard, theyL > typically experience latency of roughly 180 nanoseconds. Latency increases toI > as much as 440 ns when CPUs have to request data from memory modules inr othern? > Uniboards because the request needs to travel over the serverL
 interconnect.   K Yup, that's pretty poor latency.  Though one might observe that it's not asbL poor as Superdome's, where the *average* (non-NUMA-optimized) memory latency1 in a 64-processor box is (coincidentally) 440 ns.-   >- >-? > It isn't just about the memory controllers.  The part that isdB > just as important in my opinion is the on-chip routers.  ImagineC > if they could increase cache size to 96 MBytes, crank the CPUs to-? > 3 GHz, 8 CPUs with routers, you would have > 750 MBytes of L3e0 > cache with remote 2-hop L3 access of 10-15 ns.  H You do have an active imagination, Rob.  Unfortunately, it seems to haveH very little grounding in any acquaintance with how these beasts actually perform.     Large on-chip cachesD > at that point would be quite a bit faster than main memory access.  > No:  as demonstrated by the EV7 figures above, they would not.  G > So sure - large on-chip caches make little sense otherwise.  If Intel C > couldn't stay ahead of main memory access or as you point out the @ > difference becomes less of a differentiator - they are foolishD > in pursing such developements.  I don't think they are foolish but# > know exactly what they are doing.t  I I suspect that they understand the situation considerably better than you-H do, Rob:  Itanic needs all the help it can get, and about the only thingJ that Intel can do while encumbered with the current core and system designJ is to keep adding more cache to it.  But it's not because there aren't farI better things that they *could* have done with the chip area had they hado. better foresight (as the Alpha designers did).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:54:35 -0500o* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <wYudnWXZ3emlwVmi4p2dnA@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:O8sfr9CvBe1y@eisner.encompasserve.org..._@ > In article <O-CdncZiT_qCUF6i4p2dnA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >o< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:ExiFv198tRzB@eisner.encompasserve.org...sC > >> In article <09SdnV5YyfuYMl6i4p2dnA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" $ > > <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >> > > >> > >> >D > >> > Itanic performance is lack-lustre only by comparison with theK > >> > historically-inflated claims for it (and with more recent claims, ifl yourL > >> > compare real-world performance with some of the benchmark scores that > > aredC > >> > being touted for it).  In absolute terms, its performance iss	 certainlyoK > >> > competitive - but that's not nearly sufficient to get many people tol > > adopt apH > >> > new platform in preference to their tried-and-true existing ones. > >> > > >> >- >-J > >> Why don't you say Itanium is mostly "leading" instead of competitive? > >c0 > > Because it's not leading - just competitive. > >p+ > >> SSL or a Web thing for Opteron?  Okay.- > > J > > That's a good start on explaining why my characterization is suitable. > >  > >  But Itanium is leading in5 > >> tpmC (yes - not a single trailing number there).r > >y@ > > It trails rather badly behind POWER4+ in per-processor TPC-C performance. >oE > Per processor tpmC performance?  Come on, you're not going to start5( > talking about SpecInt per MHz are you?  K No, Rob:  *you're* the one who tends to start grasping at such straws afterm# having made unsubstantiable claims.s     Wouldn't the best comparison > be total tpmC performanceB  H That's a pretty silly question to leave in here after what I said later:C don't you reread your drivel for consistency before hitting 'send'?n  H If you really claim that's the best measure of performance, then all theK garbage you used to throw at SPARC for requiring more processors than AlphadH to beat its TPC-C scores must have been deliberate FUD.  And you clearlyI must think that SPARC completely runs away with SAP SD 2-tier, since theya dominate the top scores there.  H Unless, just maybe, per-processor performance *is* of real significance?   ...   J > > We *are* talking about processors, here, right?  I mean, the fact that Sun0H > > (back when it used to submit TPC-C results) took far more processors thanG > > Alpha to achieve comparable results was something that *you* alwayst chose to > > emphasize... > >e? > Still do.  Because Oracle is $40000 per CPU and DB2 is $33000f
 > per CPU.  E So the fact that a 32-processor POWER4+ system wipes the floor with aII 32-processor Itanic system *is* something you consider significant, aftersL all.  Good:  that makes it clear that your statement above - "But Itanium isE leading in tpmC (yes - not a single trailing number there)" - was thet hogwash I took it to be.    1   If buying a 4 processor box you can go with thetB > under-whelming 4 CPU SPARC or a much higher powered Itanium box.  F And if buying a 32-processor system you can go with the under-whelmingI Itanic or the leading POWER.  If you recall, the question was not whether G Itanic could beat just *one* of its competitors, but whether it was theh, leader - and in this case it clearly is not.   >cA > So wouldn't the 32 procssor Power4 box make more sense than theoB > 64 processor SuperDome?  Depends.  You may want to run a DB that= > delivers the most bang for the buck - MSSQL.  At $16541 pergA > CPU it helped HP turn in a higher tpmC number than IBM and mucht5 > cheaper, $6.49 $/tpmC for HP, $8.55 $/tpmC for IBM.   L Gee, Rob - that's sort of like running Windows for your OS.  Do you *really*E think that people who buy large, high-end MP systems are likely to do 8 something like that, or might it be pure benchmarketing?   >rB > There are several directions we can explore here regarding cost, > performance , DBs, etc.f >o > >>  SAP - yes. > >t > > Er, no.s > >.L > > If you've abandoned your historical position noted above that the number ofI > > processors is significant, then you should note that the top 5 SAP SD, 2-tierJ > > positions are held by Sun and Fujitsu, with high-processor-count SPARCA > > systems.  If not, let's compare systems with equal numbers of  processors:p > >eF > > 6th place is held by (gasp!) a 32-processor Marvel system - though	 there's a-H > > good chance that a 32-processor POWER4+ system might edge it out for thatI > > position (a previous-generation 1.3 GHz 32-processor POWER4 system is  onlyE > > two positions behind, in 8th - after another high-processor-count- Fujitsua > > system). >8 >:A > Well - yeah.  I wouldn't claim they had the highest SAP numbersH5 > across the board.  Sorry for not being clear there.s  K But you were quite clear, Rob:  you claimed that Itanic was leading in thisn
 benchmark.     They do lead > in 4-way and 8-way.O  K Because IBM hasn't bothered to submit a top-end (1.7 GHz) system there.  OfiK course, it hasn't bothered to at 32 processors, either, but the old 1.3 GHznF POWER4 was sufficient to beat the current top-of-the-line Itanic there anyway.b  G And HP hasn't elected to field smaller GS1280 systems there, either.  I I guess they only submitted the 32-processor Marvel configuration when they 0 needed it to beat POWER because Itanic couldn't.  )   In fact, 2 weeks ago IBM posted a 4-waylC > Itanium SAP 2-tier that is 199000 dialog steps/hour.  By the way,kC > that 32-processor Marvel is in 7th place now, a 32-way NEC passedu- > it.  That ideasinternational list is dated.h  ' The list I'm looking at right now is atdL http://www.sap.com/benchmark/sd2tier.asp , and the highest-placing Itanic isL in 10th place (in number of benchmark users, which seems to be the preferredJ single metric for touting performance - though the systems are in the sameI order I originally stated if you sort by dialog steps per hour should youqA prefer that):  do you claim that's not where I should be looking?m   >  > >gB > > The highest-placing 32-processor Itanic system is a brand-new,K > > top-of-the-line 1.5 GHz processor system from NEC - in 10th place, justS6 > > after yet another high-processor-count Sun system. > >i >p0 > No.  6th place now.  That ideas list is stale.  L One might expect SAP to have an up-to-date copy, but I'll await your pointer to a better one.   >n6 > >> SPECfp2000 - Opteron isn't even close to Itanium. > >oC > > The one area where Itanic has a clear lead is in raw SPECfp anda SPECfp_rate B > > performance - though even there one should note that its power consumptionyI > > is high enough that installations with limited cooling facilities cantE > > achieve equivalent performance per Watt with AMD64 and noticeablyo *better*J > > performance per Watt with POWER4+.  Of course, SPECfp isn't really all thatK > > significant for most commercially-important applications, but I'm happy  to > > give credit where it's due.c > >  >e > performance per watt?a  H As noted, it's a metric of consequence to a non-negligible percentage of0 installations (just ask Nick over at comp.arch).   >d2 > Another area it is a clear leader is 4-way tpmC.  L Again, because IBM hasn't bothered to submit a high-end POWER system at thatI node.  (It would also be interesting to see a 4-way Marvel system, thoughlK the *really* interesting Marvel results would be at 32-way and above, wheret) it should trounce Itanic pretty soundly.)f   ...s  I > >> But to characterize Itanium performance as lack-lustre is a stretch.r > > K > > I guess in your haste to tout Itanic you must have missed the fact thatr I K > > said exactly the same thing (noting that lack-lustre was an appropriatetE > > characterization only when comparing Itanic performance with witht inflatedG > > historical claims or when trying to relate its benchmark results toe > > real-world performance). > >c >e  > Itanium leads in many metrics.  C Itanic leads mostly in carefully-selected benchmarks where the best E competition didn't bother to show up.  The *only* area where it leadsoJ unambiguously is in SPECfp and SPECfp_rate (and for the latter you need toK go to the SGI submissions, since Marvel starts closing the gap on Superdomei in larger systems).      To characterize it > as lackluster is a stretch.L  C You keep ignoring the fact that I did *not* so characterize it with I reference to any benchmarks, only with respect to the historical hype andzG the real-world performance that the benchmark results might lead one to? expect.-  E But your attempt to characterize it as 'leading' is just as much of a " stretch.  It's merely competitive.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 07:55:12 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)tB Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday3 Message-ID: <LqdlfXgI4Z7r@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <wYudnWXZ3emlwVmi4p2dnA@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:s >    > + >   In fact, 2 weeks ago IBM posted a 4-wayiD >> Itanium SAP 2-tier that is 199000 dialog steps/hour.  By the way,D >> that 32-processor Marvel is in 7th place now, a 32-way NEC passed. >> it.  That ideasinternational list is dated. > ) > The list I'm looking at right now is athN > http://www.sap.com/benchmark/sd2tier.asp , and the highest-placing Itanic isN > in 10th place (in number of benchmark users, which seems to be the preferredL > single metric for touting performance - though the systems are in the sameK > order I originally stated if you sort by dialog steps per hour should youhC > prefer that):  do you claim that's not where I should be looking?l >   < 	My mistake.  I wasn't doing a very good job comparing them.   				Robs   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:00:43 GMTh& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday8 Message-ID: <j4c9sv4fugbh2e2ouakd55idqa85odmoum@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:05:28 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote:hH >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:27:19 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:c >> >R' >The crux of the matter as I see it is:sJ >a) in June 2001 Compaq said to its customers, 'Everything we/Digital toldM >you about Alpha is wrong. It isn't a leading cpu, it isn't capable of havingoL >any life beyond the next couple years, it does not and can't have a 25-yearM >life span. My god, what were we thinking? Our cpu designers aren't up to themL >challenge. Intel can do anything we do better - even if they don't steal itM >from us. That we don't do much if anything to market Alpha has nothing to do L >with our decision. Oh, and BTW, were going to screw our partner - Samsung - >while we're at it.'  A That's not what I heard.  What I heard was that the difference inaI performance was not worth the continued investment, in the opinion of theyJ management at CPQ.  That's their job to make those decisions.  While I mayH not always like the outcome, and while there may always be two (or more)H other possible paths to take, the management chose to go another way.  IK was just as peeved about the loss of Alpha, but I've realize that it's justo' another small bump in the road of life.    >sK >b) Sun continues to invest in upcoming versions of Sparc both on their ownyL >(perhaps one can hold up the EV7 model (post-June 2001 as an analog) and inF >partnership with Fujitsu. They are investing in building systems withF >another chip design (AMD) not of their own creation for some of their >product line (at this point).  I But Bill's statements seemed to say that Sun's investment in SPARC wasn'tmD intended to make it a performance leader (and it isn't a performanceI leader), but just keep it alive.  Certainly folks who really wanted SPARC H (and Sun) to shine could complain just as vehemently that Sun made a bad> decision not to push SPARC to the limits and make it a leader.   >hK >c) What Sun has not said is that they are killing Sparc. They are spendinghL >money on three parallel tracks ( Sparc/Sun, Sparc/Sun/Fujitsu, AMD/Sun) and@ >seeing which way their customers and the technology steer them.  J But judging from this discussion, it appears that they have not pursued anG investment strategy that would make SPARC a performance leader.  Opting E instead to just make it "good enough" to get by.  And apparently thattJ strategy is considered valid by some, so I'm just trying to understand the0 logic that allows Sun's strategy, but not CPQ's.  I I'm not casting stones at anyone's opinions on the matter, only trying tor@ figure out how the different views make sense in their thinking.   >gM >And before you take this personally, I have nothing against VMS and Alpha or>M >IA64 engineers/designers or system builders. My issues start with the people F >who run advertising/marketing and to levels of decision making in the1 >executive positions above and laterally thereto.n >   ( No problem.  I don't take it personally.   --- jlsy0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:27:16 GMTm& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday8 Message-ID: <mmd9sv4jqecqckoa0li8nedr3coo56v1cv@4ax.com>  H On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:04:32 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote: M >> namely:  a) DEC/CPQ/HPQ is bad because they decided to not invest in alpha L >> to allow it to keep up, and b) Sun is not bad, even though it has decided% >> not to invest in Sparc to keep up.m >uK >Compaq made a conscious decision to abandon a better product so as to help>K >maintain good relationship with Intel even of Alpha, combined with VMS andtL >Tru64 generated more profit than wintel crap the deal was intented to help.  H Please be careful to separate fact from opinion.  This may be your view,K but it certainly isn't based on anything supported by real facts available.s  ! But by now, the decision is done.i   >cN >HP's announcements that they won't even honour the "Plan of record" that theyH >had promised to honour, combined with Carly statements admitting HP wasN >winding down Alpha faster than had originally been planned is quite different >from Sun handling of SPARC.  C You still seem to have difficulty discerning a difference between asH commitment, and a plan.  The POR is how HP "plans" to honor commitments,I but there are often other means, and sometimes the plans have to change.     >NF >HP doesn't care about VMS or Tru64, its core business are printer/inkN >cartridges, followed by wintel to help its freinds at microsoft and intel. So+ >HP doesn't car about losing VMS custoemrs.2  J From some recent business reports, it appears that OpenVMS is experiencing some growth.  I Your attributions to motive are, again, personal opinion, based solely on5E the meanderings of your own mind.  You certainly don't have access tobJ anyone "inside" to know that their motivations are other than what they've stated.    >eO >Sun knows that its core business depends on Solaris and Sparc. Sun cares abouteL >having competition and knows that because of IBM, Sun must still make SparcM >better. It would be suicide for Sun to abandon Sparc today and be restrictedr8 >to the smaller systems AMD's 8086 can handle right now.  ? The parallel to SPARC isn't completely valid, only the business H decision-making proces.  Sun is in a much different market position thanK CPQ was due to a much narrower product line.  However, the point is that it J apparently doesn't cause problems for people to consider that Sun had madeH business decisions to keep SPARC investment low enough to keep it out of the top performance spots.   --- jls 0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail).   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:19:39 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday8 Message-ID: <0kc9sv8lmjfl9sphqv9opo69q3m2k8j5d1@4ax.com>  H On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:14:09 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >'4 >"jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message3 >news:skq6svkgbtk9gn7a4740scb8eks2jenp0s@4ax.com...r >c >... > 9 >  Note that I am responding to Mr. Todd.  I am trying to I >> understand the logic behind two different opinions I've seen come fromk >him,hM >> namely:  a) DEC/CPQ/HPQ is bad because they decided to not invest in alphalL >> to allow it to keep up, and b) Sun is not bad, even though it has decided% >> not to invest in Sparc to keep up.a >nI >Note that you are rather carefully *not* responding to any opinions that-C >I've offered, but to your own attempt to twist them.  Both of youryE >characterizations of what I've said are incorrect, one might suspecta >deliberately:  E Why deliberate?  Can't you allow that I may not have fully understood H something you've written?  This is why I ask the questions, to hopefullyD understand better.  It's my learning method, not my debating method.   >-I >a) DECpaq was incompetent because they decided not to invest in Alpha to-J >keep it *ahead* of the competition (it had no difficulty keeping up, evenJ >after several years of neglect under Capellas) - and because they decidedL >not to promote Alpha and the systems on it to make even better use of their >investments in them.  D  H Again, the way I see it, this is not different than Sun deciding at someK point not to pursue the investments to keep their SPARC chip competitive in! performance.  4 >DECpaq was also unethical (to the point of outrightL >sleaziness:  no grey areas here) both for breaking very specific, repeated,K >public promises to continue Alpha development and for brazenly lying aboutoK >its reasons for doing so in an attempt to make the decision more palatable J >to the customers who had depended upon the future of the platform because( >DECpaq *explicitly* encouraged them to.  > CPQ did not yank anything out from under anyone in their AlphaG announcement.  Nobody who invested in Alpha before the announcement hasaG lost anything since.  In fact, they've still got a long future with theeH platform.  The death of the long-term future of Alpha does not magically* cause the existing systems to go *poof*.    I Put on your business hat for a minute.  If I invested in Alpha systems in J early 2001, I've lost essentially nothing (measureable) in the investment.H And, I'd still have lots of room for workload growth in that server lineJ for quite awhile.  In fact, it might surprise you to learn that we *still*K have new customers moving tor AlphaServer systems, in spite of the supposedcH doomsday announcement.  And these customers' businesses will continue toD have significant room for growth in the medium-term future for those
 workloads.   >lF >b) In no way has Sun stated, or even suggested, that it's cutting offJ >investment in SPARC.  Rather the reverse:  it's not only bringing currentH >SPARC efforts like USIV (and perhaps even USV - I haven't followed thisL >closely enough to knw) to market, but investing in a new SPARC architectureM >(Niagara) based on the IP it acquired with Afara and partnering with Fujitsua, >to share that company's OoO SPARC platform.  G It's too early to tell for sure how things will turn out for SPARC, buthI clearly my point is that it seems OKAY for them to give a piddling amount H of investment to just barely keep up performance-wise, while the same is& not true for CPQ's business decisions.   >lF >Your attempt to draw parallels between the two situations is far moreB >reminiscent of so-called political 'debate' than of any objectiveB >evaluation.  Either you're too clueless to understand the radicalK >differences between them, or too slimey to let those differences interfereI. >with your attempts to influence the gullible. >   F Or, perhaps I see honest parallels that you, in your apparent infiniteJ wisdom, have just overlooked, or too slimey to even consider.  Don't be anJ idiot just because I question your position.  There is, to me, a logic gapI and either I'm merely missing something, or it's a real gap.  But if your 9 thesis can't stand up to challenges, it's not my problem.i  F Also realize that my job doesn't rely on Alpha's future.  Not even theE future of OpenVMS, really.  So I view most of this continued diatribeeJ against a 2+ year old *business* decision as a bit tedious now.  I supposeJ there are some out there who still argue about betamax vs vhs, but at some point it becomes a moot point.   --- jlst0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:45:48 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected MondayJ Message-ID: <w03xb.53251$Fv8.1664@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   jlsue wrote:H > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:05:28 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >  >> jlsue wrote:a= >>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:27:19 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUKs> >>> Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >>>5 >>) >> The crux of the matter as I see it is:PG >> a) in June 2001 Compaq said to its customers, 'Everything we/Digital,B >> told you about Alpha is wrong. It isn't a leading cpu, it isn'tG >> capable of having any life beyond the next couple years, it does notaE >> and can't have a 25-year life span. My god, what were we thinking? F >> Our cpu designers aren't up to the challenge. Intel can do anythingG >> we do better - even if they don't steal it from us. That we don't do > >> much if anything to market Alpha has nothing to do with ourE >> decision. Oh, and BTW, were going to screw our partner - Samsung -e >> while we're at it.' > C > That's not what I heard.  What I heard was that the difference incG > performance was not worth the continued investment, in the opinion oftC > the management at CPQ.  That's their job to make those decisions.|E > While I may not always like the outcome, and while there may always-E > be two (or more) other possible paths to take, the management chose1G > to go another way.  I was just as peeved about the loss of Alpha, buteE > I've realize that it's just another small bump in the road of life.i    L Perhaps this is the case...but that situation arose solely due to managementK imposed delays in getting EV7 pushed out the door. Had Compaq managment notSH slowed down on EV7 prior to June 2001, EV7 would have been in the marketL long befor it eventually arrived, and would have been at the leading edge ofL performance. Ditto for EV79 and EV8. Recall that we aren't talking about theH 2003-4 IA-64 vs. a 2003-4 Alpha, we're actually talking about the 2003-4H Alpha being delivered in 2000-1 vs the 2003-4 IA-64 - basically a 2-year9 lead on performance had there been management commitment.m  K That they didn't ,  based on Marcello's statements that Alpha funding was a H paltry $150MM annually, shows that IA64 was on the management discussionI table at Compaq years before 2001 despite all the engineering evidence of 6 Alpha superiority in its various upcoming superiority.        C >> b) Sun continues to invest in upcoming versions of Sparc both ontF >> their own (perhaps one can hold up the EV7 model (post-June 2001 asD >> an analog) and in partnership with Fujitsu. They are investing inC >> building systems with another chip design (AMD) not of their ownh; >> creation for some of their product line (at this point).0 >3D > But Bill's statements seemed to say that Sun's investment in SPARCA > wasn't intended to make it a performance leader (and it isn't aeC > performance leader), but just keep it alive.  Certainly folks whoc? > really wanted SPARC (and Sun) to shine could complain just as>B > vehemently that Sun made a bad decision not to push SPARC to the > limits and make it a leader.    J Recall that porting costs of customer applications to another platform areE not insignificant. It isn't absolute performance that counts for mosteI customers (for some it's the only thing), but rather price/performance. IeF come back to VAX in the late 1980's when Sun was starting to erode VMSJ market share. There were huge dislocation costs for VMS users that went toF Sun - costs that would not have been incurred had Digital improved theH price/performance ratio to something approaching Sun's value propositionJ +10-20%. But Digital was 50%+ more expensive on price/performance then, so/ the decision to migrate to Sun was much easier.m  E So I'm not betting that Sun is necessarily looking to be the outrightcG performance champ, but rather I believe that they are simply looking touJ ensure that their price/performance ratio remains in the game at all priceJ points, factoring in the potential costs of migration and dislocation thatJ their customers will consider if they were to switch o/s and h/w platformsI to an HP or IBM.  Sun has a huge customer base and as long as they retain1= most of them they will still be a profitable growing company.     D >> c) What Sun has not said is that they are killing Sparc. They are7 >> spending money on three parallel tracks ( Sparc/Sun,.G >> Sparc/Sun/Fujitsu, AMD/Sun) and seeing which way their customers and  >> the technology steer them.- > A > But judging from this discussion, it appears that they have not@D > pursued an investment strategy that would make SPARC a performanceG > leader.  Opting instead to just make it "good enough" to get by.  AndYC > apparently that strategy is considered valid by some, so I'm just@D > trying to understand the logic that allows Sun's strategy, but not > CPQ's.    J Again, my opinion is that performance leader isn't necessarily Sun's plan,K but price/performance is. And that is where most customer wins are decided.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:02:32 +0800o, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday- Message-ID: <878ym33vx3.fsf@prep.synonet.com>v  , JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:  D >> The 90 nm. Montecito will be hard-pressed to fit 24 MB of on-chip& >> cache into a chip pushing 500 mm^2.  E > If IA64 has , up to now, managed to shed its Merced image by addingiC > enourmous amounts of cache to give it less laughable performance,eD > isn't there a point at which adding more cache will yield negative > performance ?.  C You have about log2(N) gate delays to decode the address. There area0 tricks to hide it, but the tricks scale as well.  B > Or can cache scale without any performance impact ? (isn't thereF > some index to search to see if desired memory is already in cache ?,D > and what about multi processor systems where one processor writingC > to a specific memory location should invalidate any cache anothere. > processor may have of that memory location ?  G Yes, as the cache gets bigger, you get a, generally, decreasing benefitr= from the increase. Bigger also adds to the coherence traffic.n  E > Also, is there a point where adding more cache won't give any addednE > benefit because your current processes already fit into the cache ?d   Could well happen.   ...u  A > Only time will tell if Intel can change. So far, if IA64's pastpE > history is to continue, IA64 won't be very impressive over the long. > run.  B Rubish. Itanic give you way more late per dollar than any computer since the Analytic Engine.   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:54:16 GMTo& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday1 Message-ID: <cN5xb.9754$Oj7.503@news.cpqcorp.net>   ) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:eF > Sorry - I haven't looked recently.  Has IBM submitted a p690 1.7 GHz< > POWER4+ result other than for their 32-processor system?    A To my knowledge, IBM has yet to grace us with anything other than  their 32-CPU result.  C > If not, comparing against Itanic 32-processor results is the onlye > direct comparison available.  C Then you should be saying per-CPU in a 32-processor system.  SimplyfD saying "per-CPU" invokes in at least some minds the idea you want toF state what a _processor_ might be able to do, not what a processor canA do in a _specific system_.  Particularly when it is prefaced withtA stuff along the lines of "we are talking about processors right."i (Paraphrase, not direct quote).i  
 rick jones -- rH Wisdom Teeth are impacted, people are affected by the effects of events.F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:03:11 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>B Subject: Re: Sun to use AMD Opteron - announcement expected Monday2 Message-ID: <jtadnU3GjtBGd1miRVn-sA@metrocast.net>  3 "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 2 news:0kc9sv8lmjfl9sphqv9opo69q3m2k8j5d1@4ax.com...J > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:14:09 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >f > >b6 > >"jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message5 > >news:skq6svkgbtk9gn7a4740scb8eks2jenp0s@4ax.com...e > >  > >... > > ; > >  Note that I am responding to Mr. Todd.  I am trying topK > >> understand the logic behind two different opinions I've seen come from  > >him, I > >> namely:  a) DEC/CPQ/HPQ is bad because they decided to not invest ine alpha F > >> to allow it to keep up, and b) Sun is not bad, even though it has decidedl' > >> not to invest in Sparc to keep up.  > >xK > >Note that you are rather carefully *not* responding to any opinions thatlE > >I've offered, but to your own attempt to twist them.  Both of your G > >characterizations of what I've said are incorrect, one might suspectr > >deliberately: >  > Why deliberate?   L Because the alternative is incompetence:  I was giving your intelligence the1 benefit of the doubt, rather than your integrity.o  6   Can't you allow that I may not have fully understood > something you've written?c  I I can easily allow it the first time.  Often even the second time, if theeL issue is complicated or subtle (which this one is not).  After that, I start to suspect the worst.i   ...f  K > >a) DECpaq was incompetent because they decided not to invest in Alpha toUL > >keep it *ahead* of the competition (it had no difficulty keeping up, evenL > >after several years of neglect under Capellas) - and because they decidedH > >not to promote Alpha and the systems on it to make even better use of theira > >investments in them.  >aJ > Again, the way I see it, this is not different than Sun deciding at someJ > point not to pursue the investments to keep their SPARC chip competitive in > performance.  G 1.  Hypothetical garbage:  there's no indication whatsoever that Sun is G deciding not to continue investments in SPARC:  rather, it's apparentlysJ shifting its emphasis from the UltraSPARC line (which hasn't turned out asL well as it had hoped) in favor of the new Niagara SPARC line it's developing: from its Afara purchase and the SPARC64 line from Fujitsu.  L 2.  Even if it *were* the case (e.g., if Sun didn't have the Fujitsu SPARC64D option to turn to plus the complementary throughput-oriented NiagaraL technology of its own), abandoning SPARC *because of* its inability to offerG competitive performance would be dramatically different from abandoningr9 Alpha *despite* its current and future leadership status.d   > 6 > >DECpaq was also unethical (to the point of outrightD > >sleaziness:  no grey areas here) both for breaking very specific,	 repeated,:G > >public promises to continue Alpha development and for brazenly lyingw about3C > >its reasons for doing so in an attempt to make the decision moreg	 palatablemL > >to the customers who had depended upon the future of the platform because* > >DECpaq *explicitly* encouraged them to. >l@ > CPQ did not yank anything out from under anyone in their AlphaI > announcement.  Nobody who invested in Alpha before the announcement hasoI > lost anything since.  In fact, they've still got a long future with the J > platform.  The death of the long-term future of Alpha does not magically* > cause the existing systems to go *poof*.  J No one said that it did, but to suggest that Compaq did not compromise theL investments that it had actively *encouraged* its customers to make based onI Alpha's long-term future is pure bullshit.  Compaq had publicly committed,G very specifically to Alpha futures through EV10, with specific featuresrI through EV8:  when it instead took all that off the table and replaced itpI with a single modest upgrade (EV79 - and of course even that 'commitment'>L has now been broken), it screwed its Tru64 customers royally (they have *no*C even quasi-compatible continuation path to follow:  an incompatible L migration is required as soon as EV7 ceases to continue to meet their needs)E and its VMS customers significantly (they have a path forward, but itnL requires a hardware migration to a platform whose performance is about threeJ years behind the Alpha roadmap in many respects - e.g., Itanic won't offer$ EV7-style scalability until 2006-7).  L And then, of course, there are the lies Compaq's spokespeople and hangers-onJ told to try to make the decision more palatable.  Real sleazeballs, beyondI question.  Are you one too?  The alternative, just as it was above, wouldl seem to be abject stupidity.   ...   H > >b) In no way has Sun stated, or even suggested, that it's cutting offL > >investment in SPARC.  Rather the reverse:  it's not only bringing currentJ > >SPARC efforts like USIV (and perhaps even USV - I haven't followed thisA > >closely enough to knw) to market, but investing in a new SPARC- architectureG > >(Niagara) based on the IP it acquired with Afara and partnering withe Fujitsuw. > >to share that company's OoO SPARC platform. >pI > It's too early to tell for sure how things will turn out for SPARC, butlK > clearly my point is that it seems OKAY for them to give a piddling amount J > of investment to just barely keep up performance-wise, while the same is( > not true for CPQ's business decisions.  L Clearly, you speak from ignorance (or, I'll note once again, with deliberateI intent to mislead).  By all accounts I know of, Sun's investment in SPARCsK was, and continues to be, significantly higher than cHumPaq's investment int Alpha.   >  > >2H > >Your attempt to draw parallels between the two situations is far moreD > >reminiscent of so-called political 'debate' than of any objectiveD > >evaluation.  Either you're too clueless to understand the radicalC > >differences between them, or too slimey to let those differences 	 interferew0 > >with your attempts to influence the gullible. > >  >eH > Or, perhaps I see honest parallels that you, in your apparent infinite? > wisdom, have just overlooked, or too slimey to even consider.e  F So we're yet again back to the question of whether you're dishonest or incompetent.  
   Don't be andL > idiot just because I question your position.  There is, to me, a logic gap> > and either I'm merely missing something, or it's a real gap.  G As I noted above, I have no problem when someone misses something once.b> Sometimes even twice.  You, however, struck out some time ago.  
   But if yourn; > thesis can't stand up to challenges, it's not my problem.f  H The problem is not the quality of my thesis but the incompetence of your challenges.    > H > Also realize that my job doesn't rely on Alpha's future.  Not even theG > future of OpenVMS, really.  So I view most of this continued diatribeaL > against a 2+ year old *business* decision as a bit tedious now.  I supposeL > there are some out there who still argue about betamax vs vhs, but at some  > point it becomes a moot point.  F Once again, you completely *miss* the point:  incompetence, or sleaze?   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Nov 2003 15:27:14 GMT& From: Frank da Cruz <fdc@columbia.edu> Subject: Re: TELENT in batch7 Message-ID: <slrnbs9hii.c9g.fdc@sesame.cc.columbia.edu>   A In article <bq0hiu$a4i$1@reader2.panix.com>, Dale Dellutri wrote: O : On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:49:16 -0600, John Brandon <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote: E :> I have a user that is asking me about using TELNET in a batch job. % :> My response is to use RSH instead.h= :> Just out of curiousity, can TELNET be used in a batch job?  :> Why or why not? : A : The problem is scripting the responses.  We use kermit for thisaF : purpose, and kermit's telnet.  Kermit has good scripting capability. :  See:  K   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.html   C-Kermit for VMS (and Unix)aB   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckscripts.html Scripting tutorial   - Frankt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:49:45 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>= Subject: VMS/SMTP for Dummies(tm) (was [OT] For David CATHEY)n4 Message-ID: <3fc49380$0$17108$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   David Froble wrote:   H > If you ever find a simple tutorial defining SMTP and how to set it up 4 > and use it, I'd be interested in knowing about it.  M Granted. This is exactly what I'm currently working on: preparing the coming e% back of VMS to newbies in any domain.s   D.  J www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf download statistics:- day of the announcement: 43 (6th of November)h next day: 1472 amazing.  P Also, the FutureVAX page reached more than 5000 hits this morning since the 3rd # of November 2003. www.futurevax.coms   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:46:20 +0100 (CET)a0 From: futureworlds <nobody@mail.futureworlds.it>! Subject: Re: Who is Alan Erskine? C Message-ID: <89f795d6ea7e49e3636c8464d713f256@mail.futureworlds.it>g  * bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear) wrote:  D >Is he the troll?  He's the one making all the comments about Mezei. >Yours,m >o >Bear.   And who is "Bear"?  " winax23-046.dialup.optusnet.com.au   About Alan Erskine     alanerskine@optusnet.com.au   G Alan Erskine is a well known Australian netkook, psychopath, and cowardtJ who lives in Melbourne.  He usually stalks and harasses the posters of theK sci.space groups, although he is known to make excursions into a wide range K of other groups for the purposes of trolling and stalking and harassing the K participants there.  He is currently under investigation by the authoritiesa= in Australia.  If you fall victim to his frequent attacks andeI stalking/harassment campaigns, like so many in the sci.space groups have,c9 notify abuse@optusnet.com.au .  This psycho is dangerous.l  H Most sane participants have been forced to killfile him for his frequentJ violent outbursts at posters and his unrelenting attacks.  Some are taking legal action against him.m  G Here are just a few of his victims.  He has been stalking and harrasing F Scott and Betty Grissom relentlessly.  Scott Grissom is the son of GusG Grissom, the second American in space, who died in an Apollo 1 training 3 exercise fire, and Betty Grissom, 75, is his widow.s  E Alan has also been waging long-time stalking and harassment campaignseJ against other well-known members of the space community, including RichardG Katz of NASA, John Maxson, and his sons Paul and Daniel Maxson.  He has A even gone so far as to threaten to kill the entire Maxson family.   H He has been known to stalk his victims anonymously and via sock puppets,J showing what a coward he is.  Furthermore, he likes to challenge people toF fights, telling them to come to Melbourne and look him up in the phoneH book, while having admitted elsewhere that he is not listed in the phone book.  Coward!  H Alan is an enemy of freedom of speech and hates remailers, which serve aJ useful and necessary purpose.  He has resorted to impersonating others andK even himself through remailers in an effort to discredit remailers and make(K it look like others were attacking him through them.  He regularly bombardssJ remailer operators with hysterical complaints and threats and floods their
 mailboxes.  K Alan is currently on one of his psychotic crusades, this time to get peoplerI to killfile posts from remailers in order to prevent word of his misdeedscI from getting out.  Alan is a Nazi, he wants to be able to say whatever heeG wants about others but doesn't want anyone to mention him.  He wants toiF express himself freely but wants to shut others up and, not only that,J wants others to do as he says, read only the messages he approves of, etc.D He wants to police, rule, and control newsgroups and people like the% perfect little jackbooted Nazi he is.g  D Alan is not just content to harass his victims in the newsgroups, heJ usually also stalks them via email.  If you find yourself on the receivingD end of Alan's famous psychotic emails, contact abuse@optusnet.com.auB immediately, as well as the law enforcement agencies in Melbourne,B Australia.  This psycho is very violent.  Do not attempt to reasonD with him yourself, many others have tried and he does not respond to+ reason.  Let the authorities deal with him.k   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:33:13 GMTb1 From: "  Darrell Larose" <CXotaX348X@rXogers.coX>r" Subject: Re: Who is Alan Erskine??K Message-ID: <tt5xb.54224$Fv8.17160@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>y  G That would assume Alan Erskine even knows who JH Mezei is. Pointing the L finger esp. via an anonymous remailer is a red herring. The imposter IMHO is* in the Ottawa-Montreal area, not Australia  2 "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message2 news:89f795d6ea7e49e3636c8464d713f256@dizum.com..., > bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear) wrote: >nF > >Is he the troll?  He's the one making all the comments about Mezei.	 > >Yours,  > >e > >Bear. >  > And who is "Bear"? >"$ > winax23-046.dialup.optusnet.com.au >h > About Alan Erskine >1 > alanerskine@optusnet.com.auS >KI > Alan Erskine is a well known Australian netkook, psychopath, and cowardTL > who lives in Melbourne.  He usually stalks and harasses the posters of theG > sci.space groups, although he is known to make excursions into a wide  rangenI > of other groups for the purposes of trolling and stalking and harassing  theeA > participants there.  He is currently under investigation by thei authoritiesu? > in Australia.  If you fall victim to his frequent attacks andeK > stalking/harassment campaigns, like so many in the sci.space groups have,a; > notify abuse@optusnet.com.au .  This psycho is dangerous.n >hJ > Most sane participants have been forced to killfile him for his frequentL > violent outbursts at posters and his unrelenting attacks.  Some are taking > legal action against him.n > I > Here are just a few of his victims.  He has been stalking and harrasing H > Scott and Betty Grissom relentlessly.  Scott Grissom is the son of GusI > Grissom, the second American in space, who died in an Apollo 1 traininge5 > exercise fire, and Betty Grissom, 75, is his widow.o >tG > Alan has also been waging long-time stalking and harassment campaigns L > against other well-known members of the space community, including RichardI > Katz of NASA, John Maxson, and his sons Paul and Daniel Maxson.  He haseC > even gone so far as to threaten to kill the entire Maxson family.t > J > He has been known to stalk his victims anonymously and via sock puppets,L > showing what a coward he is.  Furthermore, he likes to challenge people toH > fights, telling them to come to Melbourne and look him up in the phoneJ > book, while having admitted elsewhere that he is not listed in the phone > book.  Coward! >kJ > Alan is an enemy of freedom of speech and hates remailers, which serve aL > useful and necessary purpose.  He has resorted to impersonating others andH > even himself through remailers in an effort to discredit remailers and makeD > it look like others were attacking him through them.  He regularly bombardsL > remailer operators with hysterical complaints and threats and floods their > mailboxes. >rF > Alan is currently on one of his psychotic crusades, this time to get peopleK > to killfile posts from remailers in order to prevent word of his misdeedsiK > from getting out.  Alan is a Nazi, he wants to be able to say whatever hedI > wants about others but doesn't want anyone to mention him.  He wants toaH > express himself freely but wants to shut others up and, not only that,L > wants others to do as he says, read only the messages he approves of, etc.F > He wants to police, rule, and control newsgroups and people like the' > perfect little jackbooted Nazi he is.r >eF > Alan is not just content to harass his victims in the newsgroups, heL > usually also stalks them via email.  If you find yourself on the receivingF > end of Alan's famous psychotic emails, contact abuse@optusnet.com.auD > immediately, as well as the law enforcement agencies in Melbourne,D > Australia.  This psycho is very violent.  Do not attempt to reasonF > with him yourself, many others have tried and he does not respond to- > reason.  Let the authorities deal with him.  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:10:03 +0100 (CET)s% From: Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>o" Subject: Re: Who is Alan Erskine??8 Message-ID: <89f795d6ea7e49e3636c8464d713f256@dizum.com>  * bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear) wrote:  D >Is he the troll?  He's the one making all the comments about Mezei. >Yours,t >o >Bear.   And who is "Bear"?  " winax23-046.dialup.optusnet.com.au   About Alan Erskine c   alanerskine@optusnet.com.au   G Alan Erskine is a well known Australian netkook, psychopath, and cowarddJ who lives in Melbourne.  He usually stalks and harasses the posters of theK sci.space groups, although he is known to make excursions into a wide rangewK of other groups for the purposes of trolling and stalking and harassing thesK participants there.  He is currently under investigation by the authoritiesl= in Australia.  If you fall victim to his frequent attacks and I stalking/harassment campaigns, like so many in the sci.space groups have,h9 notify abuse@optusnet.com.au .  This psycho is dangerous.   H Most sane participants have been forced to killfile him for his frequentJ violent outbursts at posters and his unrelenting attacks.  Some are taking legal action against him.f  G Here are just a few of his victims.  He has been stalking and harrasingoF Scott and Betty Grissom relentlessly.  Scott Grissom is the son of GusG Grissom, the second American in space, who died in an Apollo 1 training 3 exercise fire, and Betty Grissom, 75, is his widow.n  E Alan has also been waging long-time stalking and harassment campaigns J against other well-known members of the space community, including RichardG Katz of NASA, John Maxson, and his sons Paul and Daniel Maxson.  He has,A even gone so far as to threaten to kill the entire Maxson family.   H He has been known to stalk his victims anonymously and via sock puppets,J showing what a coward he is.  Furthermore, he likes to challenge people toF fights, telling them to come to Melbourne and look him up in the phoneH book, while having admitted elsewhere that he is not listed in the phone book.  Coward!  H Alan is an enemy of freedom of speech and hates remailers, which serve aJ useful and necessary purpose.  He has resorted to impersonating others andK even himself through remailers in an effort to discredit remailers and makemK it look like others were attacking him through them.  He regularly bombardsnJ remailer operators with hysterical complaints and threats and floods their
 mailboxes.  K Alan is currently on one of his psychotic crusades, this time to get peopletI to killfile posts from remailers in order to prevent word of his misdeedssI from getting out.  Alan is a Nazi, he wants to be able to say whatever heoG wants about others but doesn't want anyone to mention him.  He wants todF express himself freely but wants to shut others up and, not only that,J wants others to do as he says, read only the messages he approves of, etc.D He wants to police, rule, and control newsgroups and people like the% perfect little jackbooted Nazi he is.   D Alan is not just content to harass his victims in the newsgroups, heJ usually also stalks them via email.  If you find yourself on the receivingD end of Alan's famous psychotic emails, contact abuse@optusnet.com.auB immediately, as well as the law enforcement agencies in Melbourne,B Australia.  This psycho is very violent.  Do not attempt to reasonD with him yourself, many others have tried and he does not respond to+ reason.  Let the authorities deal with him.    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 01:56:32 -0800) From: bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com (Bear)  Subject: Who is Greg Morrow?< Message-ID: <8fe0acb8.0311260156.8fc602d@posting.google.com>  C Is he the troll?  He's the one making all the comments about Mezei.c Yours,   Bear.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:03:37 +0800 : From: "Nik" <spamavoid.deletethis.mnjensen@netvigator.com>  Subject: Re: Who is Greg Morrow?2 Message-ID: <bq24qp$hra186@imsp212.netvigator.com>  J Apparently so. A sober judgement based on his writing and actions seems toK indicate that he belong to some kind of extreme political group - either oniI the extreme right or the extreme left. He might (may be not so likely) benK one of the few surviving communists or (perhaps more likely) represent somevL version of Neo Nazism. He could also be an extreme Christian fundamentalist.G Whatever he might be (and all the above mentioned with few more extremenK groups are all less different than they might themselves believe) - a trolla he sure is!c   Nik.      6 "Bear" <bearbehindau2001@hotmail.com> wrote in message6 news:8fe0acb8.0311260156.8fc602d@posting.google.com...E > Is he the troll?  He's the one making all the comments about Mezei.s > Yours, >  > Bear.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:59:25 +0100d" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>% Subject: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLh4 Message-ID: <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  Q I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in nK PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?h   Thanks,m   D. -- hN     Read the latest VAX/VMS to Itanium Migration News  | mirrors   | downloadsJ   www.openvms.org/dmorandi/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf   en USA        n/aI www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf   en Europe    2669 I www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311fr.pdf   fr Europe     532 I www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200310en.pdf   en Europe     377nI www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200310fr.pdf   fr Europe     147t  ;                   Discover the FutureVAX: www.futurevax.com';                   (number of visits, en : 2604 - fr : 2404)h  I    didier morandi  ~ sarl au capital de 8 000 euros ~  Revendeur agr HP E        Expertise en environnement DIGITAL ~ Formation ~ Programmation I    Offshore ~ 5 av. A. Durand 31700 Blagnac France. Tl: 33(0)5 6131 6287SF      SIRET 448 694 851 00016 RCS Toulouse http://www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:02:52 +0100o& From: Sorin Costea <soterro@yahoo.com>) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLy9 Message-ID: <3fc46c3c$0$245$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>o  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:p  I > My standard response is that PERL is for those not familiar with F$FAO.  > I > Once someone told me how easily one can have PERL automatically "pipe" b$ > input to output.  I then suggested  % I am using Perl for two main reasons:t  H 1. (and most important for me) I'm way more familiar with Perl, which I  can also use almost everywhere.u  F 2. Perl comes with heaps of modules offering help for almost any task H one could imagine (although I'm using it mainly for string manipulation)H Piping input to output is not giving a real reason to choose a language D over another :) Now if I'm wrong on this point and there _are_ such D modules/libaries for DCL, point 1 portability would still stand for  people using more than one OS.   S    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:17:59 +0000 (UTC)sP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLe$ Message-ID: <bq1njm$h58$3@online.de>  C In article <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandic <no@spam.com> writes:   G > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processinghG > written in PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does  > PERL add to DCL? o  G My standard response is that PERL is for those not familiar with F$FAO.e  G Once someone told me how easily one can have PERL automatically "pipe"  " input to output.  I then suggested      $  TYPE SYS$INPUT:5  G and that someone was surprised that it can be done so elegantly in DCL.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:52:43 -0500w* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLG) Message-ID: <3FC477DF.BF2E50E8@istop.com>   / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:9H > Once someone told me how easily one can have PERL automatically "pipe"$ > input to output.  I then suggested    L For the record, piping was first implemented on VMS by ALL-IN-1, long before it came to DCL.w  
 for instance:l  H COPY "<for UAI$ do merge_line <.username:12> <.last_login>" "sysuaf.lis"  L The above will use as input to the COPY command, the output generated by theN loop through the UIA$ dataset (mapped to SYSUAF.DAT). The output gets directed to "sysuaf.lis"g  A Normally, COPY expects a file as input. the "<" in the input filei" specification triggers the piping.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:40:07 GMT,L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLa6 Message-ID: <00A29746.AFA51E49@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  Y In article <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes:tR >I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in L >PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?  N I wouldn't particularly recommend using PERL instead of DCL for scripting yourO BACKUP jobs, but there are a whole lot of applications for which it's superior.p What Perl brings to the party:   Regular expression processing.   Libraries.  (Kinda.)  % Object orientation, reusable modules.a  I Extensibility.  Perl extensions (XS packages) let your scripts call into iI binary libraries with a little glue; many of these are already available.lF Perl Modules (.PMs) are a good way to encapsulate application-specificB knowledge; you can use tools without having to know how they work.  M Portability.  (Perl scripts which don't use system-specific functionality can G run on many different platforms, which often means that you can find a eC pre-written script for what you want to do.  Very helpful in CGIs.)   I Expressiveness.  (A bewildering array of idioms - I speak advisedly - are ; available.  Easier string processing; floating point math.)   H IP-readiness. (Knows how to listen on sockets.  Excellent for running upN network daemons.  With libwww provides scriptable web browsing, etc, etc; thisM makes banging together web-application availability monitors is pretty easy.)a  M Database connectivity.  (Your application can use callable SQL to fetch stufftN out of databases, add things in, etc.  With DCL you'd have to write a SQL fileF and invoke a SQL processor to execute it, which is okay, if slow, whenO inserting, but requires even more postprocessing when selecting. Perl does thislM through the DBI extension and a DBD driver for the database you want to use.)l  L Python provides many of the same advantages over DCL, incidentally, but uses# a less bewildering array of idioms.s  N (DCL is fine for CGI scripting up to a point, but with Perl and the CGI.PM andM DBI stuff you can do very powerful database CGI programming in very few linesI	 of code.)o  ? And you can format output very nicely with very little trouble.e   -- Alan) --  O ===============================================================================a0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025oO ===============================================================================r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:36:55 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLh) Message-ID: <3FC4742B.6AA5CA84@istop.com>p   Didier Morandi wrote:aR > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written inM > PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?c    M Why use PERL when ALL-IN-1 gives you not only all the formatting, boilerplateuH generation, email interface, interface to SYSUAF, queue manager, indexed" files, text files , data file etc.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 03:45:21 -0800- From: soccer13player@yahoo.com (Nom de Plume)() Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL)= Message-ID: <f401eb7f.0311260345.3ea247ed@posting.google.com>t  S > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in uM > PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?t > 	 > Thanks,j >  > D.  F 1.  Useful scripts written in Perl may be ported from other platforms.  = 2.  When OpenVMS dies through lack of marketing by HP, I havea; marketable experience with a commonly used langauge/script.n   JMOD   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 03:50:04 -0800% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn)e) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL-= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0311260350.13e3f134@posting.google.com>l  C Perl can do things with far less statements than would be needed in E DCL. But only the person who wrote the code understands what is goingtE on, and don't ask him/her two months later. And why limit yourself to E Perl? You can use (g)awk or phyton or whatever is the language of the  day.  D Sometimes it seems to me that readability and maintainability are noD longer a design consideration for software. If it works, fine. If it+ doesn't, also fine, and start from scratch.w   Regards,  	 Bart Zornl    ^ Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:<3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>...S > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in oM > PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?r > 	 > Thanks,r >  > D. > --  P >     Read the latest VAX/VMS to Itanium Migration News  | mirrors   | downloadsL >   www.openvms.org/dmorandi/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf   en USA        n/aK > www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf   en Europe    2669aK > www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311fr.pdf   fr Europe     532eK > www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200310en.pdf   en Europe     377 K > www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200310fr.pdf   fr Europe     147d > = >                   Discover the FutureVAX: www.futurevax.comn= >                   (number of visits, en : 2604 - fr : 2404)4 > K >    didier morandi  ~ sarl au capital de 8 000 euros ~  Revendeur agr HPoG >        Expertise en environnement DIGITAL ~ Formation ~ Programmation K >    Offshore ~ 5 av. A. Durand 31700 Blagnac France. Tl: 33(0)5 6131 62870H >      SIRET 448 694 851 00016 RCS Toulouse http://www.didiermorandi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:39:04 -0500t5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> ) Subject: RE: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLbQ Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D502D06B47@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>:  A 1 - portability to other os's with (in many cases) minimal issuest? 2 - supportability as more people probably know perl these days5I 3 - access to some low level functions that DCL may not have an interfaceo for    -----Original Message-----, From: Didier Morandi [mailto:no@spam.com]=20* Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 2:59 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come% Subject: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLi    E I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing3
 written in=20uK PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?    Thanks,a   D. --=20 D     Read the latest VAX/VMS to Itanium Migration News  | mirrors   |	 downloadsnJ   www.openvms.org/dmorandi/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf   en USA        n/aI www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf   en Europe    2669 I www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311fr.pdf   fr Europe     532nI www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200310en.pdf   en Europe     377rI www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200310fr.pdf   fr Europe     147   ;                   Discover the FutureVAX: www.futurevax.como;                   (number of visits, en : 2604 - fr : 2404)-  L    didier morandi  ~ sarl au capital de 8 000 euros ~  Revendeur agr=E9=E9 = HPE        Expertise en environnement DIGITAL ~ Formation ~ Programmation K    Offshore ~ 5 av. A. Durand 31700 Blagnac France. T=E9l: 33(0)5 6131 6287xF      SIRET 448 694 851 00016 RCS Toulouse http://www.didiermorandi.com    ) -----------------------------------------9L The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and c=L onfidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) n=L amed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent =L responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any revi=L ew, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is str=L ictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the=L  sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original =L message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or instructio=L ns by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such o= rders and/or instructions.   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 07:40:59 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLe3 Message-ID: <2kK4xgScAN1k@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Y In article <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes:aS > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in lM > PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?w >   D    PERL is popular from eunichs-land where the shells are so poor atB    handling strings that the programmers think PERL is good at it.    iH    That said, lots of things like CGI scripts tend to be written in PERLI    and if you have some or you have a programmer who's used to PERL then oC    you might want to use them instead of translating them to DCL ori;    waiting for reality to sink into said programmer's head.a   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 07:41:59 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLi3 Message-ID: <n3rRXzWpc+fY@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  V In article <3FC4742B.6AA5CA84@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: > O > Why use PERL when ALL-IN-1 gives you not only all the formatting, boilerplategJ > generation, email interface, interface to SYSUAF, queue manager, indexed$ > files, text files , data file etc.  0   Ever try to port that ALL-IN-1 stuff to a Sun?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:10:02 -0500o5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com>t) Subject: RE: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLrQ Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D502D06B48@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>    I think this was sarcasm....   -----Original Message-----C From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] e* Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:42 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLg    2 In article <3FC4742B.6AA5CA84@istop.com>, JF Mezei# <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:d > D > Why use PERL when ALL-IN-1 gives you not only all the formatting, F > boilerplate generation, email interface, interface to SYSUAF, queue 5 > manager, indexed files, text files , data file etc.   0   Ever try to port that ALL-IN-1 stuff to a Sun?    ) -----------------------------------------  The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of  the original message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.f   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Nov 2003 14:32:30 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL : Message-ID: <bq2dht$1t7d34$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>  3 In article <2kK4xgScAN1k@eisner.encompasserve.org>,p> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:[ > In article <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes: T >> I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in N >> PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL? >> m > F >    PERL is popular from eunichs-land where the shells are so poor atD >    handling strings that the programmers think PERL is good at it.  I The Unix shells weren't designed to handle strings, there are other toolshH in the Unix toolkit for that.  DCL won't control my home heating system,- but I don't see that as a shortcoming of DCL.   F PERL, on the other hand, is a scripting language designed to bring out% the worst in any programmer's style. O   bill   -- .J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:36:56 +0100,- From: "Martin Vorlaender" <mv@pdv-systeme.de>t) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCL'9 Message-ID: <bq2dq6$1ul56o$1@ID-56200.news.uni-berlin.de>n   Didier Morandi wrote: G > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processingwG > written in PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does  > PERL add to DCL? o  C Besides all the other good reasons mentioned, there's one advantager1 that won't last very long (or will it? Guy? :-) :t   Perl has a debugger.   cu,f   Martin -- oF   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:22:08 -0600p6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLaT Message-ID: <craigberry-736500.08220826112003@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>  4 In article <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>,$  Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote:   > What does PERL add to DCL?    There are some comparisons here:  - http://www.sidhe.org/vmsperl/information.htmlr  H Probably the things I miss the most in DCL after using Perl are regular E expressions and hashes.  I like DCL, but there's an *extremely* long sB list of things DCL doesn't do that Perl does.  Start with Unicode D support in recent versions, the fact that scripts are pre-compiled, A which has both speed and syntax-checking advantages, fewer image oF activations in a large script, more sophisticated scoping mechanisms, F object-oriented inheritance mechanisms, and the list goes on and on.  H Another big difference is extensibility; how easy is it to add your own H lexical function in DCL?  And then there's CPAN, the Comprehensive Perl F Archive Network, which has a collection of thousands of libraries for A everything from data encryption algorithms to generating HTML to oC processing XML to connecting with all sorts of different databases.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:15:58 -0700c+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> ) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLe' Message-ID: <3FC4C3AE.5060303@MMaz.com>u   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  4 >In article <2kK4xgScAN1k@eisner.encompasserve.org>,? >	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:n >  x > [ >>In article <3fc45d93$0$17092$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes:- >>     >>T >>>I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written in N >>>PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL? >>>$	 >>>      a >>>nF >>   PERL is popular from eunichs-land where the shells are so poor atD >>   handling strings that the programmers think PERL is good at it. >>     >> >aJ >The Unix shells weren't designed to handle strings, there are other toolsI >in the Unix toolkit for that.  DCL won't control my home heating system,o. >but I don't see that as a shortcoming of DCL. >  a >tF Funny, this is the same hypocritical group that complains that office I productivity software isn't 'sanctioned' unless it runs on VMS.  A major  H double standard here... No doubt there is at least one person who wants D to use VMS to control their X10 appliances and perhaps even control H their home heating, and automatic spa warming for their daily 6pm after F work soak and brew?  They just might argue and fight you on the issue I that VMS should be able to do all that, and more, regardless of the fact h> that there are most likely cheaper and easier ways to do it...  G >PERL, on the other hand, is a scripting language designed to bring outE& >the worst in any programmer's style.  >  >  E >iF That is patently stupid to say, and you know it.  You can take any of C the highly structured languages and in the hands of a boob, create cI spaghetti code.  Over the past two decades, I've seen some very ugly DCL  H command procedures, so the language of choice has little to do with the 5 quality of the coding, it is the coder that counts...a     Barry      -- e  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        t   ------------------------------   Date: 26 Nov 2003 15:46:56 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLh: Message-ID: <bq2htg$1tqllr$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>  ' In article <3FC4C3AE.5060303@mmaz.com>,o. 	"Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > H >>PERL, on the other hand, is a scripting language designed to bring out' >>the worst in any programmer's style.   >> >>   >>4 > That is patently stupid to say, and you know it.    D We disagree.  Just like many people (especially here) claim that theE "Unix mindset" results in bad programs as does the "C mindset" I holdn? that PERL brings with it a mindset of "cutesy" programming that B results in the acceptance and even a desire to strive for "cutesy"A scripts that exhibit bad programming style.  For example, and onen- that I am certain many people here have seen:eJ    "print((~qq/\x95\xc4\xe3/^qq/Just Another Perl Hacker./).qq/\x08!\n/);"G Which, of course, does not print the string you see but something quite 
 different.  H >                                                   You can take any of E > the highly structured languages and in the hands of a boob, create s > spaghetti code.  r  B That's true, but some languages have developed a mythos that makesG this the norm or even expected.  PERL appears to have started that way.l  K >                  Over the past two decades, I've seen some very ugly DCL iJ > command procedures, so the language of choice has little to do with the 7 > quality of the coding, it is the coder that counts...i  C Unless one assumes that one's peers expect a certain style in order C to be one of the "gurus" of the language and that style is based onxD very bad programming practice.  Then the coder, who may write ratherD excellent Pascal or ADA code, will bend to the will of his peers and? generate trash.  I have had to debug both local and more widely B distributed PERL programs. The result of this is that I have never@ used PERL for anything I have designed and written from scratch.$ And I expect that trend to continue.  E Always choose the right tool for the job and PERL is never that tool.a% (And PHP is following the same path.)e   My opinion, YMMV.m   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:35:36 GMTc9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>b) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLl/ Message-ID: <3FC4C73B.EB473F5B@eps.zko.dec.com>e   Didier Morandi wrote:.  R > I find here and there more and more examples of VMS output processing written inM > PERL (see http://tinyurl.com/wlvo). We have DCL. What does PERL add to DCL?z  ; Regular expressions, printf, sort and multi platform usage.@A Just look at any quick file/list processing loop and you'll know.I  8 You know I am a relatively able DCL hacker right Didier?& Well, I'll grab perl first these days.  K My current work is mostly on Unix, where I never bothered to learn a shell.nP I just use perl for any and all script I need on Unix and NT, so why not on VMS?  R As much as I appreciate Guy's efforts to extent DCL... it's too little and WAY too late.h   Just one opinion.f Hein.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:19:54 GMTa9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>a) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLt/ Message-ID: <3FC4D19C.3B0557DF@eps.zko.dec.com>i  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------1124465866A2D55E8DF5ED56* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7biti       Bill Gunshannon wrote:  G > Always choose the right tool for the job and PERL is never that tool.k' > (And PHP is following the same path.)u  M It would not surprise me if Didier topic was in part caused / triggered by mea0 posting a perl script to post-process DFU ouput.M That script was posted in a cluster size topic yesterday, I'll attach it heresA again. I firmly believe perl was the right language for that job.nK I'm willing to argue whether is was 'a job'. It was a quick and dirty hack,s9 not production quality code, but it "get's the job done"!g  N Sure you could have done that in DCL, but you'dd likely need a termporary file and sort and a ton more code.cK Also, it took me less than 1/2 hour to whip this up. I might not be able toaM figure out how it works next year (allthough I suspect I will), but like some = else wrote, I'll just re-invent somehting similar if need be!   L And also like someone else wrote, if I had to script a nice backup job, or aH job  with some submits and queue management I may well go for DCL again.  N But if I need to parse 'SHOW SYSTEM', or stick dynamic data into an input pipe* for a process then it would be perl again!  M And IMHO it is pretty sweet to be able to write "perl  script.pl  < input.datr( > ouput.dat" on VMS, NT  and Unix alike!  F btw... I know how to use 'associative arrays' in dcl... but the 'keys'= operator in perl is mightly powerfull and not present in dcl.h   Cheers,r Hein.y        & --------------1124465866A2D55E8DF5ED56+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;a  name="cluster_size_perl.txt"l Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bits Content-Disposition: inline;!  filename="cluster_size_perl.txt"      $ perl CLUSTER_SIZE.P < dfu.tmpi  : 6168 (6168) Files with 6168 headers 2918870/3293460 11.37%  ' Cluster ____Waste ______ Single_Clusterd' ------- --------- ------ -------- -----n&       1         0  0.00%   1430 23.18%&       2      3470  0.11%   1892 30.67%&       3      7414  0.23%   2257 36.59%&       4     10814  0.33%   2777 45.02%&       5     14975  0.45%   3053 49.50%&       6     18664  0.57%   3290 53.34%&       7     22607  0.69%   3485 56.50%&       8     27258  0.83%   3614 58.59%&       9     31357  0.95%   3726 60.41%&      10     36180  1.10%   3851 62.44%       :				:&      99    508510 15.44%   5511 89.35%&     100    513330 15.59%   5514 89.40%    9 # This perl script will process an DFU search output file A # to analyze the effect of cluster size on wasted allocaed space.mE # use a PIPE or: defi/user sys$output dfu.tmp, and DFU SEARCH disk00:o #e5 # system$disk00:[directory]filename,ext;vers      1/9  #Primary headers : 6168-+ #Files found : 6168, Size : 2918870/32934600 while (<>) {   if (/(\d+)\/(\d+)$/) {     $end=$1;     $all=$2;      if (/Files found : (\d+)/) {B       print "\n$1 ($files) Files with $headers headers $end/$all";2       printf (" %5.2f%%\n", ($all-$end)*100/$all);       } else {       $files++;b       $file{$end}++;       }.     } '   $headers = $1 if (/headers : (\d+)/);s   }o  - #foreach $end (sort {$a <=> $b} keys %file) {n* #  printf ("%6d %d\n", $file{$end}, $end); #  }  2 print "\nCluster ____Waste ______ Single_Cluster";4 print "\n------- --------- ------ -------- -----\n"; while ($c++ < 100) {
   $waste = 0;s   $singles = 0;c   foreach $end (keys %file) {o      $count = $file{$end};(      $singles += $count if ($end <= $c);.      $w = $c * int(($end +$c -1) / $c) - $end;      $waste += $count * $w;e- #     print "$c, $count, $end, $w, $waste\n";e      }+   printf ("%7d %9d %5.2f%% %6d %5.2f%%\n", k@     $c, $waste, $waste*100/$all, $singles, 100*$singles/$files);   }       ( --------------1124465866A2D55E8DF5ED56--   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:34:22 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> ) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLe' Message-ID: <3FC4E41E.3060707@MMaz.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  I >>>PERL, on the other hand, is a scripting language designed to bring outr( >>>the worst in any programmer's style.  >>>n >>>  >>>1	 >>>        >>>i4 >>That is patently stupid to say, and you know it.   >>     >> >w >We disagree.  t >i a mouse in your pocket?n  7 >Just like many people (especially here) claim that the,F >"Unix mindset" results in bad programs as does the "C mindset" I hold@ >that PERL brings with it a mindset of "cutesy" programming thatC >results in the acceptance and even a desire to strive for "cutesy"yB >scripts that exhibit bad programming style.  For example, and one. >that I am certain many people here have seen:K >   "print((~qq/\x95\xc4\xe3/^qq/Just Another Perl Hacker./).qq/\x08!\n/);"i >  m >eB So to rationalize that a language is bad, or at a minimum flawed, D because a programmer does something that is a complete hack?  There B would be a lot of purist that would insist that writing code that F generated and executed runtime code was both bad and a hack, but that A doesn't make Fortran or Macro necessarily a bad or flawed set of . languages. y  G Though I see no merit in the clumsy creation of your Perl example, the l6 hack I mentioned provided quite necessary at a time...   JMHO...    Barry    -- m  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        t   ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 11:22:28 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)a) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLe3 Message-ID: <YRqlMfKI1R0y@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  e In article <a98cd882.0311260350.13e3f134@posting.google.com>, Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) writes:hE > Perl can do things with far less statements than would be needed inIG > DCL. But only the person who wrote the code understands what is goinglG > on, and don't ask him/her two months later. And why limit yourself tomG > Perl? You can use (g)awk or phyton or whatever is the language of then > day. > F > Sometimes it seems to me that readability and maintainability are noF > longer a design consideration for software. If it works, fine. If it- > doesn't, also fine, and start from scratch.8 >   @ 	This could easily turn into a massive flame-fest, BUT anyhow...  > 	Perl is massive and like any toolkit takes a while to come up9 	to speed.  Comparing and contrasting just ONE feature...aA 	I can read an entire file into an array in PERL in one line.  It @ 	takes more than that in DCL (and I am being very cheeky).  Perl8 	is a good tool but is admittedly very cryptic at times.  0 	Mentioned elsewhere - Python is very cool.  But: 	never got past the poking and prodding stage with Python.   				Robc   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:51:13 +0100r" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>) Subject: Re: Why PERL on VMS? We have DCLo4 Message-ID: <3fc4e83c$0$17111$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Hein van den Heuvel wrote:  Q > It would not surprise me if Didier's topic was in part caused / triggered by me 2 > posting a perl script to post-process DFU ouput.   Bingo!   D.   :-)r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:38:51 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Wildcard searchingm, Message-ID: <3FC44A7B.5060004@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   " > I have a buffer containing text. > J > I'd like to provide a function to do wildcard searches which returns the > position inside that buffer. > J > STR$MATCH_WILD has the widlcard support, but returns essentially true orU > false, and I would have to add * to both the start and end of the pattern to match.  > P > (eg, if looking for choco*te , I would have to give STR$MATCH_WILD  *choco*ta*P > in which case, it would return the first byte since the whole 2000 line buffer > would match. > 0 > Is there a magical routine that handles this ? >  > (programming language is C). >   ( Just remember, you provided the opening.  - 1) Build a string descriptor for your buffer.1$ 2) Call the following BASIC routine,& 	passing the string descriptor by ref,5 	the search mask as another string descriptor by ref,a& 	an integer by ref to get the position  # Sub JF( Str1$ , Str2$ , Position% )s 	I1% = instr(1%,Str2$,"*") 	M1$ = left(Str2$,I1%-1%) " 	M2$ = right(Str2$,Len(Str2$)-I1%) 	I2% = instr(1%,Str1$,M1$) 	If	I2% < 1% 	then	Position% = 0%	 		Subexith 	End ifd$ 	I3% = instr(I2%+Len(M1$),Str1$,M2$) 	If	I3% < 1% 	Then	Position% = 0%	 		Subexite 	End ifo 	Position% = I2% Subend  O Note that a buffer containing "1234567890choco12345chocolatezzzzz", using your  P criteria, might not give the result you might want.  Possibly you might want to N find the first 'choco', then to the right of that find both any occurances of O both 'choco' and 'te', and if the second 'choco' occurs before the first 'te',  O then discard the first 'choco' and start over with the remainder of the buffer mS to the right of the first 'choco'.  Haven't mentioned uppercase/lowercase yet.  :-)f  7 The first positive step you could take is quit using C.    Dave   -- R4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadu Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 26 Nov 2003 10:58:31 -0800& From: denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny): Subject: X Views: Plotting Capacity Date by David W. Bynon< Message-ID: <2a9d9498.0311261058.441f214@posting.google.com>  D In the December 1990 issue of VAX Professional, page 31, there is an6 article by DWBynon, "X Views: Plotting Capacity Data".  B The article references a set of programs (CAPACITY.DOC is the selfC extracting kit) to be found on the ARIS/BB (right!). These programso> accept input from the MONITOR program, and produce graphs in a
 dECWindow.  F Does anyone know what became of the ARIS/BB stuff?  Is it available on
 any web site?d  F I looked for VAX Professional, sold to Cardinal Publishing. Cardinal'sA phone has been disconnected. Bynon doesn't get any useful hits ino Google.   3 I would very much like to see his program listing. e   Thanks,d   dennyE   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:29:42 -0500l* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY) Message-ID: <3FC4482D.F2E76A4F@istop.com>e   Didier Morandi wrote:PL > So, as I have Nerim at home and Wanamou in my office, if I want to give anT > international expansion to my company I may consider a T1 link and process my mailR > by myself (as soon  as I have read and understood that obscure part of VMS which
 > is SMTP...)7  L Just make sure your inter service provider is a reputable one. Sometimes, an) ISP's whole IP range is put in the RBLs. e  N Also, if you get a service, make sure you have a static address, and make sureK that your ISP hasn't included your IP in a list of dial-up/dynamic adressesD that are given to RBL services.f  N RBL services are divided into two major categories: known problem IPs, as wellI as a list of dynamic IPs that is given by an ISP to the RBL service. ThishM prevents a custoemr on a temporrary/dynamic IP address from relaying billionslH billions of spam emails since the receiving SMTO server will see that IPQ address as part of a dynamci IP which shouldn't have an SMTP server running on it,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:27:07 +0100s" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>" Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY4 Message-ID: <3fc46401$0$17089$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   JF Mezei wrote:f   > Didier Morandi wrote:s > L >>So, as I have Nerim at home and Wanamou in my office, if I want to give anT >>international expansion to my company I may consider a T1 link and process my mailR >>by myself (as soon  as I have read and understood that obscure part of VMS which
 >>is SMTP...)o >  > N > Just make sure your inter service provider is a reputable one. Sometimes, an+ > ISP's whole IP range is put in the RBLs. a > P > Also, if you get a service, make sure you have a static address, and make sureM > that your ISP hasn't included your IP in a list of dial-up/dynamic adressesr! > that are given to RBL services.w > P > RBL services are divided into two major categories: known problem IPs, as wellK > as a list of dynamic IPs that is given by an ISP to the RBL service. ThisoO > prevents a custoemr on a temporrary/dynamic IP address from relaying billionsyJ > billions of spam emails since the receiving SMTO server will see that IPS > address as part of a dynamci IP which shouldn't have an SMTP server running on itp  B Quand es-ce que tu viens  Toulouse m'aider  configurer tout a ?   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:44:28 -0500.( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>" Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY* Message-ID: <3FC44BCC.30207@tsoft-inc.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:,   > JF Mezei a *crit : >  >  >>Didier Morandi wrote:b >>O >>>><webmaster@montagar.com>: host pelican.montagar.com[209.39.152.5] said: 554 2 >>>>    Message rejected as spam. Have a nice day. >>>>K >>209.39.152.5 doesn't resolve to a host name. Ask verio, the owner of thatrO >>address to add it to their DNS database for reverse translations. Blocking anoO >>email from a server whose IP address doesn't translate back to a host name is  >>very very common.s >>M >>Also, don't be surprised if your nerim.net address gets blocked since nerime0 >>hosts one of the infamous anonymous remailers. >> > L > So, as I have Nerim at home and Wanamou in my office, if I want to give anT > international expansion to my company I may consider a T1 link and process my mailR > by myself (as soon  as I have read and understood that obscure part of VMS which
 > is SMTP...)= >  > D. >  >   N If you ever find a simple tutorial defining SMTP and how to set it up and use * it, I'd be interested in knowing about it.   Dave   -- e4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road= Vanderbilt, PA  15486-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:01:03 -0500F* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY) Message-ID: <3FC479D1.A7872081@istop.com>    David Froble wrote:aO > If you ever find a simple tutorial defining SMTP and how to set it up and use , > it, I'd be interested in knowing about it.  3 RFC 821 gives a good overview of the SMTP protocol.w, ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc821.txt  2 RFC 822 gives the overview of the message headers., ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc822.txt  H Then, the SMTP section of the TCPIP Services Management Guide provides aT fairly complete description of the SMTO software thatc omes with the TCPIP Services.  8 I have also setup a template file fro the SMTP logicals:! http://vaxination.dyndns.org/vms/   O You need to also know about DNS so you can setup the A and MX entries properly.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:57:08 +0100D" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>" Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY4 Message-ID: <3fc4953c$0$17105$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   JF Mezei wrote:   6 > RFC 821 gives a good overview of the SMTP protocol. . > ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc821.txt   67 pages  5 > RFC 822 gives the overview of the message headers. t. > ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc822.txt   46 pages  K > Then, the SMTP section of the TCPIP Services Management Guide provides a  L > fairly complete description of the SMTO software that comes with the TCPIP > Services.s   29 pages  @ > I have also setup a template file for the SMTP logical names: # > http://vaxination.dyndns.org/vms/t  	 315 lines   G > You need to also know about DNS so you can setup the A and MX entriesi > properly.t  	 3 months.d  2 You understand now why I said "obscure to me"? :-)   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:53:37 +0100 ) From: Michael Unger <unger@despammed.com> " Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY: Message-ID: <bq25dq$1rl579$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>  , On 2003-11-25 15:14, "Didier Morandi" wrote:   > David, > How can I write to Montagar?	 > Thanks.p >  > [...]m  G I've sent some mails to David himself during the past six weeks without E any reply so far -- but I didn't get an "undeliverable" or "rejected"o
 notification.s   Michaelp   -- r; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = My e-mail account at DECUS Munich will expire on 31-Dec-2003.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:21:05 -0500m* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: [OT] For David CATHEY) Message-ID: <3FC49A9A.B9DA14E3@istop.com>    Didier Morandi wrote:6
 > 67 pages
 > 46 pages
 > 29 pages > 315 lines  > 3 months.  > 4 > You understand now why I said "obscure to me"? :-)  M In light of SPAM, operating your own SMTP server really does require that youn* understand what goes on behind the scenes.  M The problem with VMS (and its documentation) is that it assumes that you have-N a "real" internet connection with fixed line that is always up, same fixed IP,I at least 2 nodes running your own DNS server accessible to the world etc.S  J In reality, small business is behind a NAT firewall (which means local DNSM can't be used because VAX-VMS doesn't support BIND 9), so it makes thing verymI interesting since the SMTP server doesn't quite exist on the internet, it5L exists in your intranet and you need to fiddle with a few more things to get it to work.O   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.656 ************************