1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 10 Oct 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 562       Contents: Re: Advertising in HP 
 Apache on VMS  Re: Apache on VMS  Re: Apache on VMS , Re: Authorize suggestion: sys$system default2 Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create? Re: Fw: how to start DECevent  Re: Fw: how to start DECevent / Re: http_server / quotas / decnet task creation / Re: http_server / quotas / decnet task creation  Re: Info about HP  Install Problem  Leaper Colony meeting  Re: MD5 source code ?   Re: Problem with SWCC_CONFIG.com Re: Sickening, isn't it? Re: Sickening, isn't it? Re: Sickening, isn't it? Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit  Re: Sun takes a hit % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ? % Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?  Zigi :-) Re: Zigi :-)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 09:22:10 -0700. From: al5vf03p02@sneakemail.com (William Webb) Subject: Re: Advertising in HP= Message-ID: <d5ce4b06.0310100822.5c3c8262@posting.google.com>   c "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net> wrote in message news:<voc0ro3npe8232@corp.supernews.com>... I > 20 pages in People !!  Wonder where else these pages will show up.  How % > about Mad magazine?  What the heck.  > M > During the Cubs/Marlins baseball games, hp is trying to get people thinking L > about their digital cameras, printers and other personal technology.  That# > probably cost a pretty penny too.  >  > 3 > "Island" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message + > news:voammsea80vs4d@news.supernews.com... L > > In "People" Ragazine yesterday (I don't read it honestly) there is a  20( > > page Ad for HP Printers and Cameras. > > + > > I repeat 20 page Ad, yes, a 20 page Ad.  > > < > > Yep... shows where HP's concentrating don't you think??? > > 2 > > It must have cost tens of millions of dollars.I > > I think HP is more worried about losing printer business to DELL than  > > pushing their REAL systems.  > >  > >  > > DT > >  > > --   > > David B Turner# > > Island Computers US Corporation  > > 2700 Gregory St., Suite 180  > > Savannah GA 31404  > > Tel: 912 447 6622  > > Fax: 912 201 0402  > > Email: dbturner@hpaq.net > > http://www.hpaq.net  > >  > >   C While concurring with the general sentiment that has been stated in D this newsgroup for quite some time that HP's lack of VMS advertising@ is analogous to the servant in the parable who buried his talent instead of investing it---  ' Think About What Time Of Year It Is.      E While many of you (and I) would gladly give affordable VMS systems to D all our friends as Christmas gifts and not give it a second thought,A there are many more on the planet who will probably make seasonal A investments in the end-user digital imaging technology referenced  above.  
 (say cheese!)    WWWebb   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:27:42 GMT  From: "John" <me@hair.net> Subject: Apache on VMS8 Message-ID: <26Bhb.17618$Qo.16082@news2.central.cox.net>  G Anyone know of a web site running on a VMS system under apache ? We are 4 having idiot type problems to get images to show up.   Thanks   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:02:22 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) Subject: Re: Apache on VMS1 Message-ID: <03101012022204@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   I > Anyone know of a web site running on a VMS system under apache ? We are 6 > having idiot type problems to get images to show up. > Thanks > John   You mean ID TEN T errors?   3 I am running a CSWS (Apache) Intranet - works fine.   ) What version OS and CSWS are you running?      J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:05:04 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>  Subject: Re: Apache on VMS/ Message-ID: <vodpm1cpt1m65a@news.supernews.com>   % "John" <me@hair.net> wrote in message 2 news:26Bhb.17618$Qo.16082@news2.central.cox.net...I > Anyone know of a web site running on a VMS system under apache ? We are 6 > having idiot type problems to get images to show up. >    http://www.mvpsi.com/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:58:55 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>5 Subject: Re: Authorize suggestion: sys$system default 0 Message-ID: <3F86E3F9.C46724E1@blueyonder.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:  > O > Is there a reason that AUTHORIZE doesn't default to SYS$SYSTEM when it triues  > to open SYSUAF.DAT ? > E > Does't the RMS equivalent to F$PARSE allow one to specify a default O > device/directory and extension (SYS$SYSTEM:.DAT) which would fill any gaps if + > SYSUAF doesn't translate to a full path ?  > F > Is there a specific reason that AUTHORIZE doesn't use such parsing ? > L > Or is the expectation that all sites shoudl define SYSUAF logical to point  > even to the default location ? > C > It is very annoying to have to CD SYS$SYSTEM before MC AUTHORIZE.   @ Security thru obscurity? An error message saying "could not open; sys$system:sysuaf.dat" would give away the default location H of the sysuaf. however, this is available online in the docs these days. Not so way back when...   E Anyway, almost the first thing I do in a login.com is define a sysuaf ( logical. A process mode logical is fine.   --   tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:35:42 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>; Subject: Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create? 8 Message-ID: <0kndovofbt9gdq1n5lj6ne8qpsqdmqpgej@4ax.com>  C On 7 Oct 2003 08:08:49 -0700, svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth) wrote:   E >> This is all news to me.  Our normal config would be as few LUNs as M >> possible, with as many disk spindles in the group as possible.  Regardless 
 >> of the OS.  > C >This is not the "best" way to do things.  Other OSes have built-in G >throttling mechanisms which regulate the number of pending IO requests @ >per LUN.  For example, Windows or Tru64 have a "queue depth" of3 >something like 32.  Don't quote me on that number.  > B >If you have one LUN (on an EVA) served to a Windows box, and thatD >Windows box has 32 pending IO request to that LUN, it will wait forE >one of the IOs to complete before it issues the next IO to that LUN.   K You're assuming a queue will be backed up.  With 168 spindles servicing the K requests, this is rarely an issue.  And, if you're monitoring approirately, I you'll be aware of the possibility in enough time to obtain more spindles - to add to the group to alleviate the problem.    > F >So if you have one LUN on an EVA (still taking Windows here), you canG >have (1 x 32) pending IO requests.  If you create ten LUNs on the same E >EVA and present them to the same Windows box, now you can have (10 x ( >32) pending IO requests on that system. > G >*This* is why I originally asked the question about having one LUN vs.  >many LUNs.   J But it's not an issue with the way that the EVA services I/O requests.  At least, not yet.   J (BTW, re the discussion about many groups of 20 disks vs large group:  youF can still create multiple LUNs to present to the servers if this is anC issue in your site, but they don't have to be from separate groups    J I'd still like to see some empirical measurements of one LUN vs many LUNs.  8 But the idea is still to have as few groups as possible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:13:27 +0100 0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>& Subject: Re: Fw: how to start DECevent4 Message-ID: <bm6eq7$hhb$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>   Bob Kaplow wrote: ` > In article <006d01c38e7e$8ee32460$1806c084@JennyB>, "Jenny Butler" <jbutler@utmem.edu> writes: > 3 >> Bob,  Ftp into ftp.support.compaq.com and cd to:  >>. >>    /private/svctools/deceventV34/ovms-alpha >>: >> I just checked and the savesets are there - A through D >> and named DIAA034A.EXE, etc.  >  > J > Thanks! So someone just slipped "/private" in front of the old location.J > Wasted half a day yesterday with HP support and on my own trying to find > this.  > L > They just don't get it that manually pointing and clicking on multiple webN > pages to download VMS software and patches to my Dell peecee, to then try toL > FTP it to my VMS host without ending up with corrupted binaries is **NOT**0 > an acceptable answer to VMS system management. > K > As far as I'm concerned, if I can't FTP it directly from the vendor to my 7 > VMS system with a batch FTP script, it doesn't exist.   ) fetch_http is good for batch http scripts    Chris    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 08:40:04 -05004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)& Subject: Re: Fw: how to start DECevent3 Message-ID: <JVXqU6k0NLbk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <006d01c38e7e$8ee32460$1806c084@JennyB>, "Jenny Butler" <jbutler@utmem.edu> writes:3 >  Bob,  Ftp into ftp.support.compaq.com and cd to:  > . >     /private/svctools/deceventV34/ovms-alpha > : >  I just checked and the savesets are there - A through D >  and named DIAA034A.EXE, etc.   H Thanks! So someone just slipped "/private" in front of the old location.H Wasted half a day yesterday with HP support and on my own trying to find this.   J They just don't get it that manually pointing and clicking on multiple webL pages to download VMS software and patches to my Dell peecee, to then try toJ FTP it to my VMS host without ending up with corrupted binaries is **NOT**. an acceptable answer to VMS system management.  I As far as I'm concerned, if I can't FTP it directly from the vendor to my 5 VMS system with a batch FTP script, it doesn't exist.   1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" & 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  O  Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!   http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:06:19 +0100 0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>8 Subject: Re: http_server / quotas / decnet task creation4 Message-ID: <bm5p9r$hh1$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com wrote:6 > In article <bm1c0g$e35$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>,5 >  Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:  > ? >>Our "www server 80" process keeps getting into a MUTEX state. 7 >>Bytlm showed as just under 9914 (limit), 192 (avail).  >>It appears to be started by:) >>$ open net 0"http_server"::"0=www_init"  >>7 >>http_server had a bytlm of 64k - I doubled it to 128k 3 >>The system pql figures are mbytlm 1k, dbytlm 64k.  >>G >>Having rebooted, the "www server 80" process now has bytlm of 87-89k  K >>(fluctuates) - there's an http_server_1 subprocess which may account for   >>the fluctuation I suppose. >> >>The questions are:9 >>1) What determines the quotas of a decnet task object ? " >>2) What quotas are appropriate ?G >>alphaserver 2100A, 1Gb memory, VMS 7.3, doing nothing but webserving. F >>3) Is there a less drastic solution than rebooting when it MUTEXes ? >>	 >>Thanks,  >>Chris  >  > 1) SYSUAF   " One says SYSUAF, t'other says PQL.G Observed bytlm doesn't match either, although I suppose it's difficult  H to tell with pooled quotas - I'm inclined to believe it's SYSUAF, since * nothing else would explain the 89k figure.7 Can anyone else out there running HTTP_SERVER comment ?   I > 2) short answer - whatever it takes, it's only a limit and doesn't mean - >    that the process will actually use it up J > 3) supported method is AMDS - I typically don't have AMDS available whenD >    I encounter a bytlm depletion and so I use the attached code toK >    increase it on the fly (usual disclaimers apply; use at your own risk, 3 >    may crash your system, yadda, yadda, yadda...)   / Thanks  - bump_bytlm downloaded, read, & built.    Chris    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Oct 03 06:34:15 PST From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com 8 Subject: Re: http_server / quotas / decnet task creation( Message-ID: <D9hPnbNdU5g$@cpva.saic.com>  4 In article <bm5p9r$hh1$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>,3  Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:   > mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com wrote:7 >> In article <bm1c0g$e35$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, 6 >>  Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes: >>  @ >>>Our "www server 80" process keeps getting into a MUTEX state.8 >>>Bytlm showed as just under 9914 (limit), 192 (avail). >>>It appears to be started by: * >>>$ open net 0"http_server"::"0=www_init" >>> 8 >>>http_server had a bytlm of 64k - I doubled it to 128k4 >>>The system pql figures are mbytlm 1k, dbytlm 64k. >>> H >>>Having rebooted, the "www server 80" process now has bytlm of 87-89k L >>>(fluctuates) - there's an http_server_1 subprocess which may account for  >>>the fluctuation I suppose.  >>>  >>>The questions are: : >>>1) What determines the quotas of a decnet task object ?# >>>2) What quotas are appropriate ? H >>>alphaserver 2100A, 1Gb memory, VMS 7.3, doing nothing but webserving.G >>>3) Is there a less drastic solution than rebooting when it MUTEXes ?  >>> 
 >>>Thanks, >>>Chris >>   >> 1) SYSUAF > $ > One says SYSUAF, t'other says PQL.I > Observed bytlm doesn't match either, although I suppose it's difficult  J > to tell with pooled quotas - I'm inclined to believe it's SYSUAF, since , > nothing else would explain the 89k figure.9 > Can anyone else out there running HTTP_SERVER comment ?  >   E Prove it to yourself - modify bytlm in the UAF record for HTTP_SERVER A - stop and restart (you may have to STOP/ID active network server E processes so that they aren't reused with the same quotas). You might D want to use SDA to examine the bytlm of the server process after theC application has been stopped before you STOP/ID it. Then you should B see nearly the entire bytlm available. Remember that mailboxes andF even the WCBs that are created when channels are opened consume bytlm;B so you won't see your entrire 128k if you've got any of these open (SDA> show proc/chan).  J >> 2) short answer - whatever it takes, it's only a limit and doesn't mean. >>    that the process will actually use it upK >> 3) supported method is AMDS - I typically don't have AMDS available when E >>    I encounter a bytlm depletion and so I use the attached code to L >>    increase it on the fly (usual disclaimers apply; use at your own risk,4 >>    may crash your system, yadda, yadda, yadda...) > 1 > Thanks  - bump_bytlm downloaded, read, & built.  >  > Chris  >  --   - Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:05:00 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> Subject: Re: Info about HP9 Message-ID: <bm6nik$j95ln$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>   * On 2003-10-10 02:10, "David Turner" wrote:  # > So far I have seen the following:  >  > [...]  > K > The frightening answer was: We don't have any contacts at HP anymore and  ; > can't find anyone who knows anything but PC related info.  > J > Now I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by offering HP information 6 > that will cause us to lose business, but Come On !!!G > HP - You need to answer to the customers of DEC/Compaq/HP that spend  : > Hundreds of Thousands of Bucks a year on your equipment. >  > [...]   @ Take one of the current internet worms (the one saying "Re: YourF application" in the subject line and "Please see the attached file forH details." in the body) and simply modify the subject line to "List of HPH customers about to migrate to other vendors" before sending it to all HP sales persons. SCNR ;-)    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:06:13 GMT 1 From: "Barry in Indy" <barrymeindy@ameritech.net>  Subject: Install Problem@ Message-ID: <p1zhb.27289$ev2.7286559@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>  ? Has any one run into a problem using INSTALL? We did an INSTALL ? REPLACE for a module, and when we tried to bring up the system, = we got an "image not found" message, even though the previous ; version of the executable showed up in a directory listing. > Running INSTALL REPLACE with the LOG option gave us no output.  ? We finally tried doing an INSTALL DELETE followed by an INSTALL  ADD, and that worked!   
 Any ideas? --  
 Barry in Indy    Knock me out to reply    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 10:24:19 -07001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)  Subject: Leaper Colony meeting= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0310100924.50183344@posting.google.com>   C Looks like we have a quorum for a leaper colony meeting at the boot C camp.  If any of you are interested here is an older picture of the C leaper colony on VAXman's web site .http://www.tmesis.com/pix/ look F for DECUS Geeks.  Folks, Steve S. is going to be there as well (new to the colony in Atlanta).    Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:34:08 +0930 / From: Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>  Subject: Re: MD5 source code ?, Message-ID: <3f86d86b_3@news.chariot.net.au>   Doc.Cypher wrote: N > On Mon, 06 Oct 2003, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) wrote: > L >>Does anyone have a source code ready which does a MD5 checksum of an input3 >>file and puts the hash/checksum in a DCL symbol ?  >>O >>I know I could do it myself but I'm lazy^Wshort of time and ask here first...  >  > O > There's a md5 routine in WASD.  Doesn't put the hash in a symbol, but all the  > hard work is done. > J > You can find md5.c and md5.h in http://vmsbox.cjb.net/ht_root/src/httpd/ >  > HTH  >  >  > Doc.  1 It can Doc.  From the prologue of that module ...    > STAND-ALONE MD5DIGEST$SYMBOL > ----------------------------O > If this symbol exists (detected using getenv()) then the "-s", "filename" and K > "standard input" options result in the silent creation of a global symbol L > MD5DIGEST$DIGEST containing the hexadecimal MD5 digest of the input.  This5 > would be convenient for use in DCL procedures, etc.   F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+E   Mark Daniel                         http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaide F   mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark.Daniel@dsto.defence.gov.au)F +--------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 07:58:12 -07000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter)) Subject: Re: Problem with SWCC_CONFIG.com < Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0310100658.f813f8a@posting.google.com>   Dave, P      Can you post whatever response you get here, or forward it to me directly,    Thanks   Dave Baxter   c "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net> wrote in message news:<voc166m2f61ea0@corp.supernews.com>... L > Had the same problem.  Saw this thread and got my hands on v2.5 of the VMSG > agent.  2.5-106 to be exact.  Installed it on a DS20E/VMS 7.3-1/HSZ80 A > system.  Didn't help.  SWCC_CONFIG still complained about >255.  > D > Thinking I must have done something wrong, I removed the agent and" > reinstalled v2.5.  Same results. > M > I sent a note to a local hp storage guy.  We'll see what he has to say in a  > day or three.  >  >  >  > 8 > "Oliver" <oliver.steeples@compaq.com> wrote in message9 > news:e5029990.0310090228.16726c79@posting.google.com...  > > This is a known issue. > > B > > The SWCC polling of the storage comes back with a string > 255& > > characters which vms can't handle. > > F > > Contact your local HP office and they should be able to supply the& > > latest 2.5 agent which fixes this. > >  > > Regards,
 > >    Oliver  > > 8 > > PS: SWCC should only be run on 1 node in the cluster > >  > > 4 > > "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> wrote in message7 >  news:<005hb.27370$832.8932@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>... A > > > Dave Baxter <dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com> wrote in message = > > > news:a3c44af1.0310080938.787d284f@posting.google.com... G > > > > Can anyone help me here.    I have a two node cluster of ES40's M > > > > running OVMS 7.3-1, connected via a SAN setup to two pairs of HSG80's M > > > > with 42 drives attached to each controller pair.   Each of the ES40's H > > > > has two HBA's, and is dualpathed to the storage via two separateA > > > > fabrics, i.e. Each Host (ES40) has 4 paths to each drive. L > > > >      The CC Lun's on the two pairs of HSG's are set to 9000 and 9001L > > > > and they appear on the hosts as devices $1$gga9000: and $1$gga9001:. > > > > M > > > > When I try to run SWCC_CONFIG and add a sub-system (option 8), I give  > > > > it;  > > > >  > > > > Subsystem Name: HSG9000 # > > > > Device Name:    $1$gga9000: # > > > > Monitoring interval: 5 secs  > > > >  > > > > I then get;  > > > > I > > > > Adding subsystem: hsg9000, access device: $1$GGA9000:, monitoring  > > > > interval: 5 N > > > > %DCL-W-BUFOVF, command buffer overflow - shorten expression or command > > > > line	 > > > > $  > > > > = > > > > If I "set verify" and run it again this is what I get  > > > >  > > > > $write cfile > > > O >  "hsg9000|$1$GGA9000:|5|18|81D11B00PATHBIAS:0017PATH:PGA0.5000-1FE1-0012-1992  > > > O >  PRIMARY,CURRENT|81D17AC0PATHBIAS:0016PATH:PGB0.5000-1FE1-0012-1991|81D123C0|  > > > O >  81D123C0PATHBIAS:0002PATH:PGA0.5000-1FE1-0012-1994|81D182C0PATHBIAS:0006PATH  > > > N >  PGB0.5000-1FE1-0012-1993|81D11B00PATHBIAS:0017PATH:PGA0.5000-1FE1-0012-1992 > > > O >  PRIMARY,CURRENT|81D17AC0PATHBIAS:0016PATH:PGB0.5000-1FE1-0012-1991|81D182C0| 
 > > > 81D123C  > > > >  > > > O >  PATHBIAS:0002PATH:PGA0.5000-1FE1-0012-1994|81D182C0PATHBIAS:0006PATH:PGB0.50  > > > O >  00-1FE1-0012-1993|81D172C0PATHBIAS:0005PATH:PGB0.5000-1FE1-0012-1C13|81D1130  > > > O >  0|81D11300PATHBIAS:0005PATH:PGA0.5000-1FE1-0012-1C14|81D18AC0PATHBIAS:0015PA  > > > O >  TH:PGB0.5000-1FE1-0012-1C11|81D172C0PATHBIAS:0005PATH:PGB0.5000-1FE1-0012-1C  > > > O >  13|81D18AC0|81D11300PATHBIAS:0005PATH:PGA0.5000-1FE1-0012-1C14|81D18AC0PATHB  > > > IAS:0015PATH:PGB0.50 > > > > 0-1FE1-0012-1C11|"N > > > > %DCL-W-BUFOVF, command buffer overflow - shorten expression or command > > > > line > > > > $exit: > > > > ( > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions > > > @ > > > Yes, scrap the SWCC GUI stuff and use the CLI interface to >  monitor/programL > > > your HSG's.  You can connect the console ports of the Alphaservers and >  HSG'sL > > > to a Decserver700, or some such similar device, and access it remotelyN > > > through the Telnet Listener service.  Something like ConsoleWorks allows >  youK > > > to have remote access, share the access, as well as scanning/alerting  >  for< > > > problems/errors on the systems.  Ours runs on a DS10L. > > >  > > >  > > > > Thanks > > > >  > > > > Dave Baxter    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 23:57:31 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> ! Subject: Re: Sickening, isn't it? ( Message-ID: <3F86585B.8010207@rdrop.com>   John Smith quotes:  G > By contrast, the Small Business Server software, for example, can be  # > set up in 15 minutes, Ayala said.   I Snork! giggle... I've set up previous versions of SBS (it's not really a  F new product). I suppose if it ships pre-installed on a box and you're G willing to accept that 95% of the defaults are reasonable, it could be   done in a half hour.  F > Instead of dedicating different computers to different server tasks,F > the Small Business Server software is designed to be loaded onto oneA > server computer with networking, e-mail, secure Internet tools,   1 Bwahahahahahaha! Wait- today's not April first...    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 03:19:57 -07007 From: stephen_bainbridge@yahoo.co.uk (Steve Bainbridge) ! Subject: Re: Sickening, isn't it? = Message-ID: <a48f6f51.0310100219.24f6bd9e@posting.google.com>   v "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<FLohb.269357$Lnr1.175241@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...  	 [chop...]   L > It reads almost exactly like a Microsoft press release, but that's not the@ > most sickening thing about the following Reuters 'news' story. > F > The most sickening thing is that the lame excuse for a VMS MarketingL > Department does zero, zilch, nichts, nada, zip, gornischt, and squat aboutM > marketing VMS even when Reuters seems so desperate for material to send out  > over the newswires.   	 [chop...]   L Give Reuters a break. We use loads of Alpha and VAX systems running OpenVMS.   Steve    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:56:49 -0400 % From: Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> ! Subject: Re: Sickening, isn't it? < Message-ID: <howard-12FD9A.06564910102003@enews.newsguy.com>  = In article <a48f6f51.0310100219.24f6bd9e@posting.google.com>, 9  stephen_bainbridge@yahoo.co.uk (Steve Bainbridge) wrote:   N > Give Reuters a break. We use loads of Alpha and VAX systems running OpenVMS.  & Tell it to the reporter on that story.   --  D You are what you eat, therefore, I'm a vegetable!  Cows and chickens and Pop Tarts are too.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 03:21:11 -0700+ From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)  Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit= Message-ID: <bec993c8.0310100221.54e88166@posting.google.com>   d "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<A42dnbbj5soAZRiiU-KYvg@metrocast.net>...: > "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message9 > news:bec993c8.0310070803.4e75038c@posting.google.com... M > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> @ >  wrote in message news:<blu5jl$osa$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...G > > > Exentually you realise that Free Linux is in fact Expensive Linux F > > > unless you think that paying 7.5K over 3 years for SW support on) > > > a box that costs 6K is a good deal.  > > M > > 7.5K and 6K are both in the noise... unless you're talking about hundreds N > > or thousands or tens of thousands of boxes.  If you've got that many boxesN > > then you *do* go with the open-source alternative and self-support becauseJ > > you have all the sources and you built from them.  (Or at least that's > > what I hope happens!)  > F > While I don't really care to enter any portion of my anatomy in thisK > particular pissing contest, I've just got to ask:  how did the supposedly K > direct quote from Andrew above get its 7500K figure (at least that's what M > his post contains in the copy on *my* news server) get magically changed to K > 7.5K - and why didn't Andrew complain about it in his later response (his N > point presumably having been that supporting even a single inexpensive LinuxI > box can cost a hell of a lot of money in certain circumstances, a point N > which your response completely ignores by virtue of having changed the value > to 7.5K)?   D I was the one who edited the quote.  I made the assumption that whatB Andrew meant was 3 years of RedHat Enterprise AS "Premium Edition"+ support at full list price of $2.5K a year.   K I've used RedHat AS support before and found it to be equivalent in quality L to the old "Gold level" VMS support (I'm not sure what HPaq calls it today).7 Quick answers, technically correct, politically useful.    Tim.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Oct 2003 12:35:30 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit9 Message-ID: <bm692h$j47v9$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   J In article <NNkhb.158977$3r1.129754@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Tim Shoppa wrote: $ >> Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy; >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message / >> news:<bm3a9j$kbb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... F >>> In the circumstances Oracles possition is entirely understandable. >>H >> Not really.  They're losing lots of sales because they want the worldG >> to adapt to them.  Sure, there are customers who are clueless enough B >> to just bend to Oracle's whims and build their whole enterprise, >> computing system around what Oracle says. >>I >> But the rest of us realize there are alternatives which do not involve ( >> strapping ourselves to Oracle's mast. >  > % > Perhaps just Microsoft's mast then.    @ I am quite certain that Tim was not refering to Microsoft in his* comments.  There are alternatives to both.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:45:41 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit8 Message-ID: <3fodovstc1k8d1ipmil2cst1bf3pei9td8@4ax.com>  J On 7 Oct 2003 17:16:12 -0700, shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote:   >Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<blurcu$403$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...   >> >   >>  5 >> Hang on what value does Linux bring to an IT shop.  > ? >It gives the shop full and absolute control over its code base @ >and chosen (not dictated) hardware.  This is of enormous value. >   I There are so few businesses who have access to this kind of resource, nor J the commitment to continue it, that I just really don't see the market for it.   F There have been many similar types of resources of the years.  On MVS,D there were tweakers who could take the assember output from Cobol orJ FORTRAN and really speed things up, but real disciplined IT processes have! made that impossible to maintain.   K It's a nice notion, but in the commercial markets where I've been involved, I NOBODY would be willing to build a staff of OS experts who could maintain  their version of Linux.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:39:54 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit8 Message-ID: <c6odovcl77p0sbt6eml716b3h337igjfeu@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:05:35 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   >Bob Koehler wrote: 
 >> In article C >> <5qpgb.244170$Lnr1.224370@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, ( >> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >>- >>> So what's stopping HP from digesting Sun?  >>H >>    Why would HP want to buy a company that only has one product?  SunI >>    prides itself on, and attracted a lot of customers because of, only A >>    doing UNIX.  HP has a strong UNIX, they don't need another. F >>    Features HP said they wanted to add to their UNIX, they got with	 >> Tru64.  >>I >>    Sun grew up with, and will die with, the UNIX market.  For the last B >>    decade and a half that's been a good market to be in.  Sun'sE >>    biggest problem is that someday Solaris will be as usefull as a H >>    typewriter is today.  Typewriters hung around for several decades,E >>    but those companies who had them as their sole product are gone  >> now.  >  > I >Which division of Compaq did HP really want? None really, except perhaps L >Services/Consulting - which they had desperately trying to strike a deal onD >with any credible partner for several years before the Compaq deal. > M >In the end what HP really wanted to do was take a competitor off the market.   F Statements like these, put forth as "fact", with absolutely no backing  proof, are a true waste of bits.     > H >Given the state of the computing market at the time the Compaq deal wasD >thought about, consumated, and still remains, HP would have, in allI >likelihood, been  as profitable or unprofitable today (depending on your < >perspective) as it would have been without the Compaq deal.   Again, with no backing proof.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:48:10 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Sun takes a hit8 Message-ID: <4modovsncchvo9dlnpn8fkb3f90lcv14m5@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 13:53:58 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy . <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:     > A >However your point neatly illustrates the thinking behind one of * >the great Linux myths so thanks for that. >i  J With this I wholeheartedly agree.  Trying to push Linux because a businessI can change the OS to support whatever they please is a myth.  Heck, theseeH businesses can write their own device drives already for any OS they may+ have, but you don't see them doing it much.e  K The market for that is very small.  Most businesses what someone to call toG3 provide them patches when their systems don't work.i   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:14:48 -0400 (EDT) + From: Lord Isildur <isildur@andrew.cmu.edu>a Subject: Re: Sun takes a hitH Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58-035.0310101305340.2969@unix44.andrew.cmu.edu>  C I think most businesses would prefer that it work without having torD constantly be calling tech support. In the arena where they compete,F linux is a lot better than windows on this kind of thing. I dont thinkK anybody seriously expects to deploy linux in a large, serious installation-iG the kind of installation where you really only have options from ibm or-J dec^H^H^Hcompaq^H^H^H^H^H^Hhp, and to some extent sun. Let's be realistic.H Linux's primary competitor is windows. The primary arena is the low end.J True, linux is creeping into the midrange. The midrange has been a bastionI of various *NIX since the early or mid 80s anyway. Linux might not be the.F best *NIX out there but, all told, it is rather decent. Anyway. In theD low end, linux is winning against windows and pushing it back prettyJ aggresively. Windows is painful and expensive, and linux far less so. more9 people are figuring this out and switching. end of issue.h   Isildurb    ! On Fri, 10 Oct 2003, jlsue wrote:  >lM > The market for that is very small.  Most businesses what someone to call tor5 > provide them patches when their systems don't work.'   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 07:23:46 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) . Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?3 Message-ID: <A7OtAZDr8Vrh@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <nUohb.269450$Lnr1.36741@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > E > So here's an alternative to HP not providing its LOYAL customers an K > opportunity to test drive the fastest IA64 system with a debug version ofnF > VMS - how about having a 2nd IA64 running a non-debug version of VMSM > available....or can't HP afford that huge additional expense for a group oftL > customers that bring in $800MM profit to HP (if that any longer) annually?E > Seems to me that cost is only about a week's worth of manicures forn > carly(tm).  D    HP has made other VMS I64 systems available on a standalone basisE    (you get exclusive access to the machine).  That's a proper way tooB    let folks run benchmarks, you know someone else isn't trying to    benchmark at the same time.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 07:21:25 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)b. Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?3 Message-ID: <+47KmmzpqQOG@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Q In article <3F85ED7C.709@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:.  G > Speaking of test drives, there was an Encompass query as to how more sH > value could be brought to the user group community.  Does anyone else J > see the merit in allowing subscribed, paid members, the ability to have K > access to the alpha/beta program (and presumably the released product in :J > the future), at their own choosing and risk, without support, under the G > terms of a non-Production type license even, with maybe the only two  G > caveats being that the user can report bugs, flaws, irritations, and  I > that the same the user cannot discuss these findings (ie. NDA) outside kG > of HP and possibly a closed Encompass forum designated just for this?*  D    I currently have almost all of that for free, so why should I payG    Encompass for a membership?  The only part I don't have is a channel5(    to "report bugs, flaws, irritations".   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 08:03:48 -05004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow). Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?3 Message-ID: <teMHOldPNEeo@eisner.encompasserve.org>S  V In article <3F83BEA2.E7681027@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: > Hans Vlems wrote:cN >> Based on the (in)famous VUPS DCL utility the 2600 that is accessible to theM >> internet runs at 166 Vups. That's about the performance of an EV56 runningg >> at 400 MHz. > P > Yes, be we are constantly told to wait for the next generation IA64 which willP > provide much better performance. IA64 will eventually exceed Alpha's speed. ByP > then however, the future might be clearer with regards to Intel going for a 645 > bit 8086, so IA64's perfornance will be quite moot.Y  I The only reason that "IA64 will eventually exceed Alpha's speed", is that < Intel via HP and Compaq managed to kill off the competition.  M > My gut tells me that most VMS customers will not migrate to IA64, they willi$ > migrate from Alpha to 64 bit 8086.  G From what I've seen, they are migrating to a platform that is availablebK TODAY that is not yet end-of-lift. HP has shot itself in the foot with bothlJ Alpha and PA-RISC by killing them both off BEFORE a viable replacement wasL already established in the market. Imagine if DEC had announced the death ofJ the VAX in 1988, several years before the first Alpha shipped. Instead VAXG wasn't EOLed until 5 years after Alpha ship, and was sold for another 4l years after that.c  2 Something about counting chickens comes to mind...    1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"o& 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdfeL     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  O  Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!   http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.htmlp   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:49:04 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>t. Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?8 Message-ID: <65adov8habrqch2hre6aji1ighfumtiam2@4ax.com>  P On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 16:21:32 -0700, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote:  F >Speaking of test drives, there was an Encompass query as to how more G >value could be brought to the user group community.  Does anyone else sI >see the merit in allowing subscribed, paid members, the ability to have mJ >access to the alpha/beta program (and presumably the released product in I >the future), at their own choosing and risk, without support, under the eF >terms of a non-Production type license even, with maybe the only two F >caveats being that the user can report bugs, flaws, irritations, and H >that the same the user cannot discuss these findings (ie. NDA) outside F >of HP and possibly a closed Encompass forum designated just for this?  N As has been done with some earlier versions of OpenVMS the plan is for OpenVMSI V8.1 to be available as a 'beta' Software Developers Kit at nominal cost. M Support for this SDK will only be available through a dedicated newsgroup. OfnA course you will have to supply the Itanium system to run it on:-)s  P V8.1 will have native compilers among other things & unless you are desperate orK masochistic you really do want to wait for a native development environmentt7 before commencing on porting/migrating/transistioning. n   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azure   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:01:36 GMTd! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>s. Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?8 Message-ID: <cmadov4s9sfj7b5e68hfghm6kng9tkomf9@4ax.com>  L On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:42:59 +0200, "H Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> wrote:   >b2 >"Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> schreef in bericht- >news:bm12to$cea$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr...8 >> H Vlems wrote:nK >> > BTW where are you in France? We're planning a holiday next week at thep >Ctea >> > d'Azur :-)> >>H >> HP + Cote d'Azur = Valbonne, close to Nice, aka Sophia-Antipolis, theI >> former DEC European Competence Center, then former COMPAQ incompetence F >> Center (all DECcies left, well most of), today a complex octopus ofG >> engineers in a 90% free for rent building. Some of them have creatediG >> there the European VAX/ALPHA to Itanium Migration Competence Center.c >> >> D.t >>M >I've been to Digital Sophia-Antipolis but was under the impression that thisr. >facility had been closed. Hence the question. >h  O Digital had many offices on the Sophia Antipolis Technology Park even including N a manufacturing facility at one time. Operations were consolidated down to oneL building some years ago before the Compaq thing. There is still a sizeable &# extremely competent operation here.    -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur8   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 08:06:24 -05004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow). Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?3 Message-ID: <J1YlEXA5sTks@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  q In article <LQVfpw0AjYPT@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ei > In article <bm0lg8$g6lhm$1@ID-143435.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> writes:. >  >> BTWN >> the fact that VMS by and large now runs on an Itanium does not mean that it: >> will run with minimal effort on another Intel platform. > G >    No, but VMS engineering has stated that having completed two portsgD >    a great deal of the hardware dependence originally put into VMSA >    has been removed and any future ports should be much easier.i > F >    Which to me means, if IA64 fails it will cost the owner even lessG >    to port VMS to something else than it is to port to IA64 and thereo; >    will be even more business justification for doing so.t   To what? SPARC?A  1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" & 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdfsL     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  O  Save Model Rocketry from the HSA!   http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html-   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:26:19 GMTh( From: Mark Schafer <mark.schafer@hp.com>. Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?2 Message-ID: <%ryhb.6767$uR4.1902@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Smith wrote:a  N > Please ask to have the beta/in-progress 'test drive' always available on the > currently fastest machine. >   I I'll take that action item.  HP testdrive is a service of DSPP.  I asked aF for a system to install OpenVMS V8.0 and was given one of the rx2600s F here in our facility.  We don't have faster systems yet.  They are on I order.  Priorities will determine whether I get a bigger, faster system. f   I'd love to put V8.1 on one!  I I'm pleased that this discussion has been so even-handed.  I feared that kI if there was an overwhelming negative response, that I might be asked to f remove the testdrive.    Mark   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:05:50 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>. Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?2 Message-ID: <21zhb.6768$BW4.4817@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bill Todd wrote:   it's hardly clear thatG > stripping out the debug code would help much:  Fred said that they're,N > currently running code compiled for Merced (though it's difficult to imagineE > why, unless they require features that haven't yet been migrated to I > McKinley's compilers) that's wholly unoptimized (and understandably so: N > they want to be able to make sense of it in a debugger if they have to), andM > *those* are likely the main reasons why it runs like a slug (but running on = > Madison would at least make it run like a 50% faster slug).A >   I The compiler's tuning model just knows about Itanium 1.  We just haven't cF   updated the peephole optimizer to understand the processor model in I Itanium 2.  There really aren't any new instructions for us to use, just sE a slightly different tuning model.  That work is underway.  It isn't -F particularly difficult, but just lower priority since we've been most H concerned with correctness over performance.  At this point, making the E system crash n% faster isn't something my management cares about. :-)e  H Using /NOOPT/DEBUG for many of our compiles is a bigger performance hit @ since that is untuned, no global optimizations, and no peephole H optimizations.  As things have become more stable, we are slowly moving D to turning on optimization (and sometimes finding bugs, both in the  compiler and the source code).  I As for debug code, for the compilers (which also have tons of debug code eB in them), we do a complete consistency check of our internal data ? structures at several points during a compilation.  Looking at 1H compilation times, right now, I'd guess our Itanium cross-compilers are H half the speed of our Alpha compilers both running on the same machine. I   The only difference is that the cross-compilers have the checking code tF turned on and the Alpha ones do not.  So some of our checking code is  quite complicated...     -- t John Reagana' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadern Hewlett-Packard Company>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:41:21 +0200 ( From: "H Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl>. Subject: Re: What is the performance of iVMS ?9 Message-ID: <bm6r3p$i4p04$1@ID-143435.news.uni-berlin.de>d  0 "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> schreef in bericht2 news:cmadov4s9sfj7b5e68hfghm6kng9tkomf9@4ax.com...G > On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 20:42:59 +0200, "H Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl>R wrote: >  > > 4 > >"Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> schreef in bericht/ > >news:bm12to$cea$1@news-reader3.wanadoo.fr...  > >> H Vlems wrote:eI > >> > BTW where are you in France? We're planning a holiday next week at) the  > >Ctea > >> > d'Azur :-)a > >>J > >> HP + Cote d'Azur = Valbonne, close to Nice, aka Sophia-Antipolis, theK > >> former DEC European Competence Center, then former COMPAQ incompetencemH > >> Center (all DECcies left, well most of), today a complex octopus ofI > >> engineers in a 90% free for rent building. Some of them have createdyI > >> there the European VAX/ALPHA to Itanium Migration Competence Center.t > >> > >> D.  > >>J > >I've been to Digital Sophia-Antipolis but was under the impression that this0 > >facility had been closed. Hence the question. > >e >eG > Digital had many offices on the Sophia Antipolis Technology Park even 	 includingrL > a manufacturing facility at one time. Operations were consolidated down to one L > building some years ago before the Compaq thing. There is still a sizeable &,% > extremely competent operation here.i >  > -- > Nigel Barker! > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur3  L Thanks for the information Nigel. Now, do you allow visitors :-) (in case it rains in CW43)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 06:02:01 -0400i) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>e Subject: Zigi :-) : Message-ID: <ssvhb.12808$fP6.376037@news20.bellglobal.com>  	 Zigi ZagiP	 Zigi Zagid Hoy Hoy Hoyi   :-)n Neil  L p.s. it's the time of year for all square heads to come alive. I wonder what  that Harry Himburg guy is up to?   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Oct 2003 06:08:44 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)H Subject: Re: Zigi :-)e3 Message-ID: <OCfdqPxv+yAq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <ssvhb.12808$fP6.376037@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:   > Zigi Zagia > Zigi Zagit   Cast a Shadowi :-)   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.562 ************************rate to other vendors" before sending it to all HP sales persons. SCNR ;-)    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[1