1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 03 Sep 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 488       Contents:M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal M Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal P Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal OS Re: ANN:SMPP API under OpenVMS Re: ANN:SMPP API under OpenVMS Re: ANN:SMPP API under OpenVMS' Any problems with the INFO-VAX gateway? + Re: Any problems with the INFO-VAX gateway? + Re: Any problems with the INFO-VAX gateway?   Backup/Copy tree with alias file$ Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file$ Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file$ Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file$ Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file$ Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file$ Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file+ Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box / Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box / Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box / Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box / Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box  Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? RE: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? RE: Do we need a DCL debugger? RE: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? RE: Do we need a DCL debugger? Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?? Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members ? Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members ? Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members ? Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members ! New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived % Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived  Re: OpenVMS Security Re: OpenVMS Security Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates  RE: PowerPoint slides on VMS RE: PowerPoint slides on VMS Re: RdB on EVA ?7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 RE: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 7 Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available 3 Re: The Dell Effect (Was: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 ...) 3 Re: The Dell Effect (Was: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 ...)  Re: The vmsnet hierarchy Re: TPU Section files...4 two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept8 Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept8 Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept8 Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept8 Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept8 Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept8 Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept> Re: Using multiple Radeon 7500 PCI cards in a DS10 running VMS> Re: Using multiple Radeon 7500 PCI cards in a DS10 running VMS1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 RE: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250 1 Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 03 08:44:08 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal) Message-ID: <eOYzs6GZqm5j@elias.decus.ch>   e In article <harris-1408F4.22525202092003@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>, Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com> writes: 5 > In article <l6lrJdZtb1CN@eisner.encompasserve.org>, ? >  koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  > O >> In article <aus-1BD7BF.21233129082003@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Hans Aus  % >> <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes: 8 >> > In article <GmoYK4f4Sy8N@eisner.encompasserve.org>,B >> >  koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: >> >   >> > ... The only options G >> >>    you have are to control it at the client side or to use an X11 G >> >>    based terminal emulator which will allow the VMS system to use  >> >>    xmodmap.  >> >>  >> >  N >> > But Bob - why does the delete key work in non-X11 terminal programs such 0 >> > as VersaTerm and Kermit - without xmodmap?  >>  F >>    Because when you use the delete key on those clients, the client, >>    sends a proper ASCII delete character. >>  M >> > We've used VersaTerm on pre-X MacOS since the beginning of Mac (almost)  N >> > and never had to set any extra options in VMS. Unfortunately, Synergy is % >> > not porting VersaTerm to MacOSX.  >>  F >>    I've mostly used NCSA telnet for years, NCSA dropped Mac a whileI >>    back.  Later I tried BetterTelnet, which I think is a FAT with OS X K >>    support.  Nowdays I'm using NiftyTelnet which has SSH built in and is M >>    also built for OS X.  I have no problems with the delete key on any of   >>    them.  >>   > H > I am just repling to the stream in general.  I picked on this specify I > article only because it was on-topic and not talking about VMS and PDP  
 > history. > J > Today, I used rlogin and telnet to connect to an OpenVMS system from my I > Mac OS X 10.2.6 system using Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal.app  C > and using Strict VT100 emulation _AND_ delete worked as expected.  > 2 > So I am confused as to what the real problem is? >   F The real problem which provoked this discussion is for those of us whoA have accented characters on our Mac keyboards wanting to use them 3 when using Terminal on OS X to access a VMS system.   B o - SSH can deal with these, when after logging into VMS you do a      $ SET TERM/EIGHBITG     It does get rubout right, but SSH on VMS is an Early Adopter's Kit, !     so not suitable for everyone.   A o - telnet -8 into a VMS system also manages accented characters, @     but gets rubout horribly wrong. It does send <DEL>, but also-     an input terminator, rendering it useless   F o - Using xterm from the OS X X11 kit from Apple sends ^H. Here again,F     it's a beta kit, so fine on my home system, not so keen elsewhere.K     According to an earlier post this behaviour can be overridden by use of C     xmodmap. I haven't tried this yet but of course it only applies      to X11 applications.  E The last option in theory offers me the option of launching a DECterm I window on the Mac, but I haven't figured out how to get this working yet,  getting:  0 $ set display /create /transport=tcpip /node=mac $ mc decw$clock ' XIO:  unable to open connection _WSA22: C       after 0 requests (0 known processed) with 0 events remaining. # X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display % %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204    > ---- > K > By the way, speaking to the article that I used to reply to, I still use  D > BetterTelnet, running in the Classic environment.  I use it for 2 J > reasons, the most important is that I need to tunnel into work, and the I > easiest tunnel for me is the old AltaVista tunnel which currently only  J > runs in Classic mode so only Classic apps can use it.  The other reason J > is that BetterTelnet is actually a very good VT emulator and works well G > with UNIX and OpenVMS applications (especially OpenVMS NOTES and the   > keypad keys).  > H > If NiftyTelnet has Mac OS X support, maybe I'll have look at it for a E > future terminal emulator.  I've played with iTerm, but it does not  I > handle the Powerbook keypad keys that you have to hold the 'fn' key to  I > activate.  iTerm works with keypad on a regular keyboard, but my Pismo  E > it just doesn't handle the keypad.  Also iTerm seems to work fine,  K > except when I start a Vim session.  I don't know why, but it gets really  G > sluggish when I start up Vim.   I like iTerm TAB'ed windows, but the   > keypad and Vim problems. > 4 >                                         Bob Harris   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 12:20:27 GMT , From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal9 Message-ID: <bj4mab$ff4qv$2@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   , In article <3F54F3CE.3030707@nelsonusa.com>,+ 	Alan Frisbie <Abuse@NelsonUSA.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > : >> Well, yes it was.  It was either Murray or Baudot.  :-) > D >> And for bonus points, what symbol was all 5 channels punched out? >  > LTRS > F > The very first program I wrote for the PDP-11 was a Baudot-ASCII andG > ASCII-Baudot conversion.   I fabricated a tape slitter that would cut " > 1" 8-level tape down to 5-level. > C > Twenty years later, a client asked if I could write a program for B > their VAX to convert ASCII to Baudot.   They wanted to take textD > files and punch Baudot tapes which they could then feed into theirC > crypto machine.   This time we didn't have to use the slitter, as 8 > Teletype had a 5-level punch with an RS-232 interface. >   D Been there, done that.  My very first hardcopy printer was the LO-15G I mentioned previously hooked up to a homebrew interface that converted G the serial signals sent out the cassette port of a TRS-80 to 60 ma. TTY G loop, driven by a program that converted ASCII to BAUDOT.  I still have > some of those listings laying around the attic somewhere.  :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 12:28:19 GMT / From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net> V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal* Message-ID: <bj4mp3$30n$1@news1.radix.net>  9 In comp.os.vms Paul Sture <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote: / >     an input terminator, rendering it useless   H > o - Using xterm from the OS X X11 kit from Apple sends ^H. Here again,H >     it's a beta kit, so fine on my home system, not so keen elsewhere.M >     According to an earlier post this behaviour can be overridden by use of E >     xmodmap. I haven't tried this yet but of course it only applies  >     to X11 applications.  / it can also be overridden by resource settings.   K (xmodmap is generally a bad solution, since it affects other applications).    --  4 Thomas E. Dickey <dickey@radix.net> <dickey@his.com> http://dickey.his.com  ftp://dickey.his.com   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:45:20 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal3 Message-ID: <kxE5FKPAeFZ9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <harris-1408F4.22525202092003@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>, Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com> writes:   J > Today, I used rlogin and telnet to connect to an OpenVMS system from my I > Mac OS X 10.2.6 system using Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal.app  C > and using Strict VT100 emulation _AND_ delete worked as expected.  > 2 > So I am confused as to what the real problem is?  I My real problem was getting PF1-PF4 to work with ANUNEWS, which might not J be on your VMS system.  I have dropped back to MacOS 9.1 with Reflections.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:46:43 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal3 Message-ID: <9+bYy$yTXlCs@eisner.encompasserve.org>   y In article <cf02d19cce1bc9e5eb9ef5f21d8c6584@news.teranews.com>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> writes: ? > In article <harris-1408F4.22525202092003@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>, ) >  Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com> wrote:  >  > I >> If NiftyTelnet has Mac OS X support, maybe I'll have look at it for a  F >> future terminal emulator.  I've played with iTerm, but it does not J >> handle the Powerbook keypad keys that you have to hold the 'fn' key to 
 >> activate.   > . > FWIW, I've had pretty good luck with GLTerm: > ! > <http://www.pollet.net/GLterm/>  > F > It has some trouble with double-high, double-wide characters but is F > otherwise the most stable, VMS-friendly Mac OS X emulator I've used.  = But it is a shame Apple could not get it right with Terminal.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:47:35 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal3 Message-ID: <UFvHIFwq24GO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <eOYzs6GZqm5j@elias.decus.ch>, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) writes:  > G > The last option in theory offers me the option of launching a DECterm K > window on the Mac, but I haven't figured out how to get this working yet, 
 > getting: > 2 > $ set display /create /transport=tcpip /node=mac > $ mc decw$clock ) > XIO:  unable to open connection _WSA22: E >       after 0 requests (0 known processed) with 0 events remaining. % > X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display ' > %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204   D    Are you running an X server on your Mac?  The Mac OS X GUI is not5    X11.   Also check to see that permissions are set.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:56:19 -0500 5 From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal2 Message-ID: <e5udnQS8-4COnMuiRTvUpQ@speakeasy.net>  3 In article <9+bYy$yTXlCs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:z >In article <cf02d19cce1bc9e5eb9ef5f21d8c6584@news.teranews.com>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> writes:@ >> In article <harris-1408F4.22525202092003@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>,* >>  Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com> wrote: >>   >>  J >>> If NiftyTelnet has Mac OS X support, maybe I'll have look at it for a G >>> future terminal emulator.  I've played with iTerm, but it does not  K >>> handle the Powerbook keypad keys that you have to hold the 'fn' key to   >>> activate.  >>  / >> FWIW, I've had pretty good luck with GLTerm:  >>  " >> <http://www.pollet.net/GLterm/> >>  G >> It has some trouble with double-high, double-wide characters but is  G >> otherwise the most stable, VMS-friendly Mac OS X emulator I've used.  > > >But it is a shame Apple could not get it right with Terminal.  F Terminal has delete sending delete by default.  F1-F4 send the PF1-PF4/ keys.  F5-F11 send F5-F11.  What's the problem?    --  F Matthew T. Russotto                            mrussotto@speakeasy.netF "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuitL of justice is no virtue."  But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of / a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 10:43:07 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal3 Message-ID: <poYpZeySkq3$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <e5udnQS8-4COnMuiRTvUpQ@speakeasy.net>, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) writes:5 > In article <9+bYy$yTXlCs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 > Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:  ? >>But it is a shame Apple could not get it right with Terminal.  > H > Terminal has delete sending delete by default.  F1-F4 send the PF1-PF41 > keys.  F5-F11 send F5-F11.  What's the problem?   B There are keys at the top of the keypad on my Apple Keyboard whereA PF1-PF4 should be, but they do not send those codes.  F1-F4 would @ be all the way on the other end of the keyboard, if I had a less$ space-efficient keyboard from Apple.  E Note that under OS 9.1 Reflections 2+ has no trouble honoring PF1-PF4  keystrokes.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:52:45 -0500 5 From: russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal2 Message-ID: <3IOdnXvLZ4bQk8uiRTvUqg@speakeasy.net>  3 In article <poYpZeySkq3$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:k >In article <e5udnQS8-4COnMuiRTvUpQ@speakeasy.net>, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) writes: 6 >> In article <9+bYy$yTXlCs@eisner.encompasserve.org>,1 >> Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:  > @ >>>But it is a shame Apple could not get it right with Terminal. >>  I >> Terminal has delete sending delete by default.  F1-F4 send the PF1-PF4 2 >> keys.  F5-F11 send F5-F11.  What's the problem? > C >There are keys at the top of the keypad on my Apple Keyboard where B >PF1-PF4 should be, but they do not send those codes.  F1-F4 wouldA >be all the way on the other end of the keyboard, if I had a less % >space-efficient keyboard from Apple.   B I'm on a Powerbook now, so I can't check if it works, but have you1 tried the "Strict VT-100 keypad behavior" option?  --  F Matthew T. Russotto                            mrussotto@speakeasy.netF "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuitL of justice is no virtue."  But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of / a modicum of security is a very expensive vice.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 12:35:26 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) V Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal3 Message-ID: <n0CSr+c3GgII@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <3IOdnXvLZ4bQk8uiRTvUqg@speakeasy.net>, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) writes:5 > In article <poYpZeySkq3$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 > Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:l >>In article <e5udnQS8-4COnMuiRTvUpQ@speakeasy.net>, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) writes:7 >>> In article <9+bYy$yTXlCs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 >>> Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote: >>A >>>>But it is a shame Apple could not get it right with Terminal.  >>> J >>> Terminal has delete sending delete by default.  F1-F4 send the PF1-PF43 >>> keys.  F5-F11 send F5-F11.  What's the problem?  >>D >>There are keys at the top of the keypad on my Apple Keyboard whereC >>PF1-PF4 should be, but they do not send those codes.  F1-F4 would B >>be all the way on the other end of the keyboard, if I had a less& >>space-efficient keyboard from Apple. > D > I'm on a Powerbook now, so I can't check if it works, but have you3 > tried the "Strict VT-100 keypad behavior" option?   C I believe so - I found I had to change at least two controls to get ? as close as I could to a VT100.  There is also a dialog box for ? changing the meanings of keys, but PF1-PF4 were not among them.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:52:18 +0300 * From: Mike Rechtman <rechtman@tzora.co.il>Y Subject: Re: ??==Delete key only backspaces w/o delete from Telnet in Mac OSX Terminal OS * Message-ID: <3F558FA2.9000105@tzora.co.il>   Paul Sture wrote: g > In article <harris-1408F4.22525202092003@juggl7.zk3.dec.com>, Bob Harris <harris@zk3.dec.com> writes:  > 5 >>In article <l6lrJdZtb1CN@eisner.encompasserve.org>, ? >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  >> >>O >>>In article <aus-1BD7BF.21233129082003@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>, Hans Aus  % >>><aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes:  >>> 7 >>>>In article <GmoYK4f4Sy8N@eisner.encompasserve.org>, A >>>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  >>>> >>>>... The only options >>>>F >>>>>   you have are to control it at the client side or to use an X11F >>>>>   based terminal emulator which will allow the VMS system to use >>>>>   xmodmap. >>>>>  >>>>M >>>>But Bob - why does the delete key work in non-X11 terminal programs such  / >>>>as VersaTerm and Kermit - without xmodmap?   >>> F >>>   Because when you use the delete key on those clients, the client, >>>   sends a proper ASCII delete character. >>>  >>> L >>>>We've used VersaTerm on pre-X MacOS since the beginning of Mac (almost) M >>>>and never had to set any extra options in VMS. Unfortunately, Synergy is  $ >>>>not porting VersaTerm to MacOSX. >>> F >>>   I've mostly used NCSA telnet for years, NCSA dropped Mac a whileI >>>   back.  Later I tried BetterTelnet, which I think is a FAT with OS X K >>>   support.  Nowdays I'm using NiftyTelnet which has SSH built in and is M >>>   also built for OS X.  I have no problems with the delete key on any of   >>>   them.  >>>  >>H >>I am just repling to the stream in general.  I picked on this specify I >>article only because it was on-topic and not talking about VMS and PDP  
 >>history. >>J >>Today, I used rlogin and telnet to connect to an OpenVMS system from my I >>Mac OS X 10.2.6 system using Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal.app  C >>and using Strict VT100 emulation _AND_ delete worked as expected.  >>2 >>So I am confused as to what the real problem is? >> >  > H > The real problem which provoked this discussion is for those of us whoC > have accented characters on our Mac keyboards wanting to use them 5 > when using Terminal on OS X to access a VMS system.  > D > o - SSH can deal with these, when after logging into VMS you do a  >     $ SET TERM/EIGHBITI >     It does get rubout right, but SSH on VMS is an Early Adopter's Kit, # >     so not suitable for everyone.  > C > o - telnet -8 into a VMS system also manages accented characters, B >     but gets rubout horribly wrong. It does send <DEL>, but also/ >     an input terminator, rendering it useless  > H > o - Using xterm from the OS X X11 kit from Apple sends ^H. Here again,H >     it's a beta kit, so fine on my home system, not so keen elsewhere.M >     According to an earlier post this behaviour can be overridden by use of E >     xmodmap. I haven't tried this yet but of course it only applies  >     to X11 applications. > G > The last option in theory offers me the option of launching a DECterm K > window on the Mac, but I haven't figured out how to get this working yet, 
 > getting: > 2 > $ set display /create /transport=tcpip /node=mac > $ mc decw$clock ) > XIO:  unable to open connection _WSA22: E >       after 0 requests (0 known processed) with 0 events remaining. % > X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display ' > %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204 )                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    >  >  >>----  E Try running DECW$EXAMPLES:ICO - the error messages are a trifle more   informative.       --    & New to c.o.vms? allow me to recommend:6 http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~rechtman/post_hlp.htm@ Other useful links at http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~rechtman/E --------------------------------------------------------------------- E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that. ? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* E Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home):(972)-2-9908337 C    "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%" E ---------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:57:11 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>' Subject: Re: ANN:SMPP API under OpenVMS ) Message-ID: <3F55F335.7941AEDE@istop.com>    "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: > 	 > Hi All! P >         Some time ago I wrote a small interface library to interoperating withE > Short Message Service Center with SMPP (Short-Message-Peer-to-Peer)   E In your experience, do any GSM networks make it easy for customers to K interface to them via SMPP ? My GSM provider refuses to acknowledge it even M has TAP ports, and while I know that they have SMPP available, I suspect that  they don't want it to be used.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:40:27 +0400 < From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev{at}DeltaTelelecom{dot}RU>' Subject: Re: ANN:SMPP API under OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <E947E37531C3C8311F2C4F083997B918@nntp>    Hi !   JF Mezei wrote:    > "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: > 	 >>Hi All! P >>        Some time ago I wrote a small interface library to interoperating withE >>Short Message Service Center with SMPP (Short-Message-Peer-to-Peer)  >  > G > In your experience, do any GSM networks make it easy for customers to  > interface to them via SMPP ?D 	We use SMPP in gateway software to send/receive SMS-es from/to our O GSM-partners. We working with several external info/service providers wich use  J "SMS-trasport" to receive a request and send an information with the SMPP.  0 > My GSM provider refuses to acknowledge it evenO > has TAP ports, and while I know that they have SMPP available, I suspect that   > they don't want it to be used.P 	AFAIK, traditionaly, operator provide some other primitive way to SMS-ing from L internet - it's a MAIL to SMS gateways (for example xxxxxx@page@nextel.com).   --  F + WBR, OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .................................+D Delta Telecom Inc., NMT-450i, IMT-MC-450(CDMA2000) cellular operatorE Russia,191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3 Cel: +7 (812) 116-3222 F +http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru ............. Frying on OpenVMS only +   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:00:51 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>' Subject: Re: ANN:SMPP API under OpenVMS ) Message-ID: <3F561E3C.804DCC71@istop.com>    "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:X >         AFAIK, traditionaly, operator provide some other primitive way to SMS-ing fromN > internet - it's a MAIL to SMS gateways (for example xxxxxx@page@nextel.com).  N Unfortunatly, SMPP is the "only" efficient way to allow someone to send an SMSL to a host. For instance, if I want to be able to turn on lights in the houseE from my phone, I need to be able to send an SMS "directly" to my VAX.   I Using email is very problematic because anyone can forge my phone's email  address. (and is slow).    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:32:45 GMT + From: Ken Robinson <sendspamhere@rbnsn.com> 0 Subject: Any problems with the INFO-VAX gateway?@ Message-ID: <9e69a12be473daca85c96efc90e12484@news.teranews.com>  K As the subject says... are there any problems with the INFO-VAX news/email  6 gateway? Or should I look for a problem with my email?   Thanks Ken Robinson   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:05:06 +0200 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> 4 Subject: Re: Any problems with the INFO-VAX gateway?; Message-ID: <01L08F8UADXIAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   A > As the subject says... are there any problems with the INFO-VAX D > news/email gateway? Or should I look for a problem with my email?   - Maybe you'll see this via Google or whatever.   & There don't appear to be any problems.  E I'm assuming that you think there are problems and that you normally  F access comp.os.vms via Info-VAX.  If you aren't getting messages, how E are folks supposed to let you know, since you didn't provide a valid  * address to reply to (even in munged form)?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:09:40 GMT + From: Ken Robinson <sendspamhere@rbnsn.com> 4 Subject: Re: Any problems with the INFO-VAX gateway?@ Message-ID: <05235603180bf5fd07de6440aad0c5ea@news.teranews.com>  = Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in  3 news:01L08F8UADXIAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com:   B >> As the subject says... are there any problems with the INFO-VAXE >> news/email gateway? Or should I look for a problem with my email?   > / > Maybe you'll see this via Google or whatever.  > ( > There don't appear to be any problems. > G > I'm assuming that you think there are problems and that you normally  H > access comp.os.vms via Info-VAX.  If you aren't getting messages, how G > are folks supposed to let you know, since you didn't provide a valid  , > address to reply to (even in munged form)? >    Sorry.   I'm posting via Xnews...   Ken   kenrbnsn (at) kenrbnsn (dot) com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:15:27 GMT # From: "Keith" <keith.ho@compaq.com> ) Subject: Backup/Copy tree with alias file 1 Message-ID: <Pii5b.3932$GC5.315@news.cpqcorp.net>   H I have a directory tree which contains alias files (using set file/enterI command).   So, how can I move the whole tree while keeping all the alias L entries?  I tried BACKUP command using /NOALIAS and /ALIAS.    /NOALIAS willK not backup the alias entries while /ALIAS will duplicate the alias entries.    Thanks, 
  -- Keith.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:37:17 +0200 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> - Subject: Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file ; Message-ID: <01L0884GPGU0AMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   J > I have a directory tree which contains alias files (using set file/enterE > command).   So, how can I move the whole tree while keeping all the F > alias entries?  I tried BACKUP command using /NOALIAS and /ALIAS.   H > /NOALIAS will not backup the alias entries while /ALIAS will duplicate > the alias entries.    C I think that the answer is that you can't, unless you do an /IMAGE   backup.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:10:08 -0700 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)- Subject: Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0309030610.55ab0447@posting.google.com>   | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01L0884GPGU0AMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...L > > I have a directory tree which contains alias files (using set file/enterG > > command).   So, how can I move the whole tree while keeping all the H > > alias entries?  I tried BACKUP command using /NOALIAS and /ALIAS.   J > > /NOALIAS will not backup the alias entries while /ALIAS will duplicate > > the alias entries.   > E > I think that the answer is that you can't, unless you do an /IMAGE  	 > backup.   A If you're moving it to another place on the same disk, RENAME the  tree's top direcotry:   
 Suppose that         [FELDMAN.ALIAS...]  " contains your alias files. Then...  -     $ RENAME [FELDMAN]ALIAS.DIR [SOMEONEELSE]    e.g., will do the trick.    D If it's to another disk, I think only an image save and restore will work.   E Have you considered aliasing directories instead of files? That might 8 make things easier, depending on just what you're doing.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:33:00 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>- Subject: Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file 1 Message-ID: <jXm5b.717$G1.3088@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   I That also was my conclusion, when I had to move Multinet to another disk. J I used /NOALIAS and then issued appropriate SET FILE/ENTER commands on the destination.   -- S Syltremo   OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---kE "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> a crit dans leo@ message de news:01L0884GPGU0AMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...L > > I have a directory tree which contains alias files (using set file/enterG > > command).   So, how can I move the whole tree while keeping all the E > > alias entries?  I tried BACKUP command using /NOALIAS and /ALIAS.TJ > > /NOALIAS will not backup the alias entries while /ALIAS will duplicate > > the alias entries. >eD > I think that the answer is that you can't, unless you do an /IMAGE	 > backup.k   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:01:29 GMTe& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>- Subject: Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias filey8 Message-ID: <k24clvcha2gnslp3cm2ldhhe3mn0bamev8@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:15:27 GMT, "Keith" <keith.ho@compaq.com> wrote:  I >I have a directory tree which contains alias files (using set file/enter J >command).   So, how can I move the whole tree while keeping all the aliasM >entries?  I tried BACKUP command using /NOALIAS and /ALIAS.    /NOALIAS will L >not backup the alias entries while /ALIAS will duplicate the alias entries. >a  G Are you moving this directory on the same disk?  If so, RENAME the .DIRa% file to the new containing directory.   K If not (i.e., you're moving them to another disk), then alias entries won'trJ make any bit of sense on the destination volume as the original files willH be different (and you can't have aliases that point to a file on another volume).   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:26:24 +0200 (MET)b9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>L- Subject: Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias file ; Message-ID: <01L08K6W9WKAAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  I > Are you moving this directory on the same disk?  If so, RENAME the .DIRa' > file to the new containing directory.g   Right.  A Tongue-slightly-in-cheek: Is renaming directories supported?  :-)   G > If not (i.e., you're moving them to another disk), then alias entriesdG > won't make any bit of sense on the destination volume as the original J > files will be different (and you can't have aliases that point to a file > on another volume).    This is a misunderstanding.e  G Here's a problem I had: Directory A contains some files.  I want it to  I be visible as directory B as well.  Thus, I used SET FILE/ENTER to add B p as an alias for A.  H Suppose I now copy a higher-level directory [...] which contains A and BE to, say, another disk.  If I do an IMAGE backup, then I can have B as @ the alias entry for A, or I have DOUBLE COPIES OF ALL THE FILES,A depending on /ALIAS or /NOALIAS.  However, if I DON'T do an image G backup, the only option is to have all the files duplicated, or I have  F to just copy one of the directories and do the SET FILE/ENTER by hand  again.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 11:53:44 -0500i; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)A- Subject: Re: Backup/Copy tree with alias fileo3 Message-ID: <OE3Zwg66Uk+v@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  w In article <01L08K6W9WKAAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:vJ >> Are you moving this directory on the same disk?  If so, RENAME the .DIR( >> file to the new containing directory. >  > Right. > C > Tongue-slightly-in-cheek: Is renaming directories supported?  :-)C      Tounge out of cheek:  yep.   J > Suppose I now copy a higher-level directory [...] which contains A and BG > to, say, another disk.  If I do an IMAGE backup, then I can have B aslB > the alias entry for A, or I have DOUBLE COPIES OF ALL THE FILES,C > depending on /ALIAS or /NOALIAS.  However, if I DON'T do an imageSI > backup, the only option is to have all the files duplicated, or I have  H > to just copy one of the directories and do the SET FILE/ENTER by hand  > again.  E    Sounds like you've identified some missing funtionality that mightT4    be a usefull addition to a future version of VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:12:07 +0100t% From: David Gray <police@spamcop.net>t4 Subject: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box8 Message-ID: <87fblvkevl30pmqo1gsgr92lq4orksu35q@4ax.com>   Greetings all, I  F I'm just in the process of  setting up a new DS20 to act as a disasterB recovery server.   The live server has 64 OpenVMS licenses and the test server a bare bones 4.  P  D If in the event of a total failure, I was forced to switch to the DR> box, would I need to register the licenses on the day or can I4 'prepare' by preloading BUT NOT USING the licenses?   D If so apart from copying the LMF$LICENSE file what else do I need to do?    Thanks in advance, S 	Dave. o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:39:17 +0100* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>8 Subject: Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box+ Message-ID: <bj4gco$pka@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>   2 "David Gray" <police@spamcop.net> wrote in message2 news:87fblvkevl30pmqo1gsgr92lq4orksu35q@4ax.com...  F > If in the event of a total failure, I was forced to switch to the DR@ > box, would I need to register the licenses on the day or can I5 > 'prepare' by preloading BUT NOT USING the licenses?h  @ Since LMF is only  tool to help you administer licences, I would> think it reasonable to have the licences loaded on the DR box,= as long as you can enforce the non-use of the software there.,  > There are contact details on the licenceing page if you need a formal answer from HP.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:55:05 +0100o% From: David Gray <police@spamcop.net>m8 Subject: Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box8 Message-ID: <r10clvor7u93qfr25ic2c0cdhi9o6qi2jn@4ax.com>  E Yes I thought it would be reasonable to have them all preloaded, lastmF thing I want to do in the event of a switchover is worry about loading
 licenses.    Thanks for your response.    Dave.   3 On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:39:17 +0100, "Richard Brodie"  <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote:   >g3 >"David Gray" <police@spamcop.net> wrote in messager3 >news:87fblvkevl30pmqo1gsgr92lq4orksu35q@4ax.com...t >rG >> If in the event of a total failure, I was forced to switch to the DRyA >> box, would I need to register the licenses on the day or can Il6 >> 'prepare' by preloading BUT NOT USING the licenses? >dA >Since LMF is only  tool to help you administer licences, I wouldo? >think it reasonable to have the licences loaded on the DR box,f> >as long as you can enforce the non-use of the software there. >n? >There are contact details on the licenceing page if you need an >formal answer from HP.o >V   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 08:26:36 -0700n& From: denny_rich@ameritech.net (Denny)8 Subject: Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box= Message-ID: <2a9d9498.0309030726.3e168bd9@posting.google.com>o  @ Usual practice, David, is to make periodic image backups of your% system disk on the production system.o  C When you want to test (or when you have that pesky disaster), do anoE image restore of your most recent backup onto the DR server.  You cano8 use any disk that will hold the production system image.  A Reboot the DR server from the restored system disk. This will, ofeD course cause issues if both nodes are on the same subnet (but then iB don't want my DR server sitting beside the production node, do I?)  C Then, when your testing is finished, wipe the restored system disk,d9 reboot the DR server from its _own_ disk, and off you go.g  D This is standard practice, and I think HP will bless it, if you ask.% They understand about DR and testing.   @ They will have absolutely no sense of humor, however, if you are* "duplicating" licenses, but you knew that.   regards,   dennyd  ] "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<bj4gco$pka@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>...t4 > "David Gray" <police@spamcop.net> wrote in message4 > news:87fblvkevl30pmqo1gsgr92lq4orksu35q@4ax.com... > H > > If in the event of a total failure, I was forced to switch to the DRB > > box, would I need to register the licenses on the day or can I7 > > 'prepare' by preloading BUT NOT USING the licenses?  > B > Since LMF is only  tool to help you administer licences, I would [ S N I P ]r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:38:12 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>8 Subject: Re: Copying Licenses to a Disaster Recovery Box, Message-ID: <3F560AE4.2070602@tsoft-inc.com>   David Gray wrote:    > Greetings all, l > H > I'm just in the process of  setting up a new DS20 to act as a disasterD > recovery server.   The live server has 64 OpenVMS licenses and the > test server a bare bones 4.  d > F > If in the event of a total failure, I was forced to switch to the DR@ > box, would I need to register the licenses on the day or can I6 > 'prepare' by preloading BUT NOT USING the licenses?  > F > If so apart from copying the LMF$LICENSE file what else do I need to > do?  >  > Thanks in advance, a	 > 	Dave. t >  >   B You don't give any details on how disaster recovery would proceed.  O I'd usually assume that the latest copy of the production data would be loaded oL onto the disaster recovery system, including a BACKUP restore of the system + disk.  If so, then you'd have the licenses.   J It's been a while since I read any of the licenses, and DEC's position on J disaster recovery.  What I recall is that they were pretty flexible.  The Q recovery hardware would be considered the same as your primary hardware when the )P primary hardware is rendered unusable.  Periodic testing of recovery procedures  seemed to be acceptable.  O Note that the actual language in your license agreement(s) is what you need to cO follow.  However, if you have a vnedor that doesn't allow you to test and have  ; prepared a DR site and hardware, you have the wrong vendor.   N Also, the language in the licenses uses the word 'USE' if I recall correctly. L Regardless of where you store your archived copy(s) of the licenses, if you - don't 'use' the licenses, you should be fine.e  L You can also load the license PAK, but disable it until you need to use it, 4 since you have the 4 user license for the DR system.   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486v   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:12:18 +0300i" From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com># Subject: Do we need a DCL debugger? & Message-ID: <3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com>  C The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to beo- added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).   G We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will bew$ useful. It won't be as sophisticatedG as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and.
 set break.  7 Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail.y   Thanks in advance,  	 Guy Pelegv OpenVMS Engineeringl  H ** Please note that this note is no commitment for actually developing a1 DCL debugger, this is only a survey that will nott) necessarily result in actual product.....e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:51:51 GMT 4 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? . Message-ID: <Htl5b.259532$Oz4.68155@rwcrnsc54>  K In article <3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com>, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> writes:  !tD !The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to be. !added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2). !eH !We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will be% !useful. It won't be as sophisticatediH !as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and !set break.  ! 8 !Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail. !m !Thanks in advance,r !x
 !Guy Peleg !OpenVMS Engineering !.I !** Please note that this note is no commitment for actually developing a 2 !DCL debugger, this is only a survey that will not* !necessarily result in actual product..... !e Guy,  M I would find this feature very useful - please consider adding it in a future@ version.   !s  J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own"dK bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' i0                                          with @"   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:56:23 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?F3 Message-ID: <tIYV0TK39Qk$@eisner.encompasserve.org>V  K In article <3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com>, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> writes:-  E > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to bem/ > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).t > I > We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will be9& > useful. It won't be as sophisticatedI > as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and. > set break.  H This would have the disadvantage of encouraging people to write DCL whenI a compiled language should have been used.  But then I remember what most G people choose for a compiled language and think it does not matter thataE much that they "program" in DCL.  Plus, using an interpreted languageoG helps sell VMS licenses for more and larger machines, so I vote yes :-)y  > Of the features you list, I think SET BREAK is most important,C particular SET BREAK WHEN (my_iterator .EQ. 639486536), or whateveru( other weird value I keep ending up with.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:20:44 +0200 (MET).9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>m' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? ; Message-ID: <01L08CZGIGTSAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a  E > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to bes/ > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).  > I > We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will bej& > useful. It won't be as sophisticatedI > as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine andn > set break. > 9 > Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail.t   It would be nice to have.e  B However, your resources are not unlimited.  I think that there areG higher-priority items which need to be tackled.  I would prefer to have G no DCL debugger IF this means that more resources could be invested in,:H say, improving VMS MAIL, improving TCPIP (not so much the features as a)H the command-line interface and b) the on-disk organisation of the files) etc. k  > I think most folks don't know what your internal budgeting andC work-distribution policies are, so it's difficult for us to see if e< saving resources somewhere would free them up elsewhere etc.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:22:17 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ' Subject: RE: Do we need a DCL debugger?e9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEELHOAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message-----9A >From: Phillip Helbig [mailto:HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com]c, >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 6:21 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? >c >mF >> The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to be0 >> added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2). >>  J >> We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will be' >> useful. It won't be as sophisticatedoJ >> as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and
 >> set break./ >> p: >> Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail. >g >It would be nice to have. >sC >However, your resources are not unlimited.  I think that there are H >higher-priority items which need to be tackled.  I would prefer to haveH >no DCL debugger IF this means that more resources could be invested in,I >say, improving VMS MAIL, improving TCPIP (not so much the features as a)oI >the command-line interface and b) the on-disk organisation of the files)s >etc.  >y? >I think most folks don't know what your internal budgeting and D >work-distribution policies are, so it's difficult for us to see if = >saving resources somewhere would free them up elsewhere etc.-  # I would like to see symbolic links.r   >i >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.:; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003g >  ---a& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:40:15 -0500l( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?a1 Message-ID: <03090308401510@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>F  E > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to ben/ > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).t > I > We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will bet& > useful. It won't be as sophisticatedI > as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine andt > set break. > 9 > Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail.a  P DCL Debug?  I thought there already was one - or is that just a SYNTAX checker? < Regardless, I have had no real issues debugging DCL scripts.  J I would prefer a DCL compiler.  I remember that there was a DCL to FORTRANK converter and I believe I have test-software for that but have not used it.l  O I did encounter a product on OS/2 called REX (?) - it was intelligent enough toeO pre-compile itself and run.  If no changes were made since the last compilationy' it would run the current compilation.  r       J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*no VMS Systems Administratori* firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:09:22 GMT-+ From: Ken Robinson <sendspamhere@rbnsn.com>5' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?e@ Message-ID: <b23ef1eaaa5aff0282a100870dac860c@news.teranews.com>  D Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> wrote in news:3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com:   > E > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to bey/ > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).I > F > We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will) > be useful. It won't be as sophisticated E > as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine  > and set break.  H I think that this is a very good idea. With it, I wouldn't need to keep + re-inventing the wheel with each procedure.f  G Other suggestions for DCL ... (I know you didn't ask, but why not :-) )a   1) a for loop construct0 2) a switch constructm 3) more that 8 parameters    Probably others...   Ken Robinson   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:31:03 +0300@" From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com>' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?t& Message-ID: <3F55ED17.86A546D4@hp.com>   Hi Ken,w  J I'm currently in coding stage of a WHILE. Hopefully you may use it instead of FOR.a( CASE statement is next on my plate......   Guy4   Ken Robinson wrote:n  F > Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> wrote in news:3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com: >< > >$G > > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to bep1 > > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).  > >eH > > We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will+ > > be useful. It won't be as sophisticated G > > as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examineo > > and set break. >pI > I think that this is a very good idea. With it, I wouldn't need to keep - > re-inventing the wheel with each procedure.  >tI > Other suggestions for DCL ... (I know you didn't ask, but why not :-) )  >  > 1) a for loop constructn > 2) a switch construct  > 3) more that 8 parameters  >1 > Probably others... >n > Ken Robinson   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:39:52 +0200o$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?,9 Message-ID: <bj4rcf$famdl$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>-  ' On 2003-09-03 15:31, "Guy Peleg" wrote:   	 > Hi Ken,  > L > I'm currently in coding stage of a WHILE. Hopefully you may use it instead	 > of FOR.f* > CASE statement is next on my plate......  E "CASE" in conjunction with a "DEFAULT" or "OTHERWISE" option to catcha. all the conditions not explicitely thought of?   Michael<   -- z; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.n@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.3= And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)b   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:07:50 +0200 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>w' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?>; Message-ID: <01L08FGAKLKSAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t  N > > I'm currently in coding stage of a WHILE. Hopefully you may use it instead > > of FOR.m, > > CASE statement is next on my plate...... > G > "CASE" in conjunction with a "DEFAULT" or "OTHERWISE" option to catchK0 > all the conditions not explicitely thought of?  G I STRONGLY recommend modelling the control structures on FORTRAN95 and r3 not repeating the mistakes made in other languages.V   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:10:50 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>.' Subject: RE: Do we need a DCL debugger?t9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEEPHOAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message-----M, >From: Michael Unger [mailto:unger@decus.de], >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 6:40 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? >  > ( >On 2003-09-03 15:31, "Guy Peleg" wrote: >t
 >> Hi Ken, >> oC >> I'm currently in coding stage of a WHILE. Hopefully you may use   >it insteadI
 >> of FOR.+ >> CASE statement is next on my plate......n >pF >"CASE" in conjunction with a "DEFAULT" or "OTHERWISE" option to catch/ >all the conditions not explicitely thought of?     C Guy, since you are working on the parser you could support both themF C and the PL/I like syntax with little effort, this would make it moreH REXX like.  Besides SELECT ... WHEN ... OTHERWISE is a lot more powerful0 with the ALL and ANY options, (and reads better)  D Of course, Larry's comment that you are making DCL a surrogate for aH compiled language is valid, as is his comment that it may be preferrable to that used by many   >e >Michael >, >-- < >Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.A >Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityKB >Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.> >And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-) >b >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.o; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003  >  ---s& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:15:08 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>f' Subject: RE: Do we need a DCL debugger? 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEEPHOAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- 0 >From: John Brandon [mailto:brandon@dalsemi.com], >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 6:40 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? >  >vF >> The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to be0 >> added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2). >>J >> We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will be' >> useful. It won't be as sophisticatedtJ >> as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and
 >> set break./ >>: >> Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail. >s@ >DCL Debug?  I thought there already was one - or is that just a >SYNTAX checker?= >Regardless, I have had no real issues debugging DCL scripts.s >tK >I would prefer a DCL compiler.  I remember that there was a DCL to FORTRAN L >converter and I believe I have test-software for that but have not used it. > : >I did encounter a product on OS/2 called REX (?) - it was >intelligent enough to? >pre-compile itself and run.  If no changes were made since the- >last compilation & >it would run the current compilation.  1 REXX developed by Colishaw at IBM Hursley Labs UKR   >N >P >P >J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n >VMS Systems Administrator+ >firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com  >A >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.n; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).cA >Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003n >  ---y& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 09:27:14 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)0' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? 3 Message-ID: <TD2ZsMZHhQwR@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  n In article <b23ef1eaaa5aff0282a100870dac860c@news.teranews.com>, Ken Robinson <sendspamhere@rbnsn.com> writes:  I > Other suggestions for DCL ... (I know you didn't ask, but why not :-) )  >  > 1) a for loop construct  > 2) a switch construct>  G Presuming you mean a "case" statement, I use "computed GOTOs" for that.    > 3) more that 8 parametersG   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:29:46 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? 1 Message-ID: <hUm5b.716$G1.3113@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>d  F I think that could be a nice feature, but is not something I would use often.> Most of the time for a long procedure, I do a SET VERIFY and aJ /OUTPUT=X.LOG, then I can go through the steps in the text editor, and addL some SHOW SYMBOL where required. That's often quicker than executing step by step.e  C But there are cases where it would really come handy so I vote YES.s  F OTOH, I don't see the point for FOR and WHILE or UNTIL loops, that canI easily be made with GOTOs, as DCL should not be considered a language for F creating real applications and thus does not absolutely need all those constructs.3   Thanks   -- 6 Syltremh   OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---r9 "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@hp.com> a crit dans le message deS  news:3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com... >3E > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to beF/ > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2).i >iI > We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will bel& > useful. It won't be as sophisticatedI > as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine andh > set break. >,9 > Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail.m >h > Thanks in advance, >  > Guy Pelegd > OpenVMS Engineering  >nJ > ** Please note that this note is no commitment for actually developing a3 > DCL debugger, this is only a survey that will not-+ > necessarily result in actual product.....m >e >o   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:27:23 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?s) Message-ID: <bj518r$nik$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   K In article <3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com>, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> writes:  >iD >The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to be. >added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2). >iH >We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will be% >useful. It won't be as sophisticated H >as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and >set break.a >p  9 I'd rather you improved the control structures in DCL  ie    For loop Whilew   Case statement    0 and added support for floating point arithmetic.  * That's assuming those aren't in V7.3-2  :)  
 David Webb VMS and Unix Team leader CCSS Middlesex University    8 >Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail. >  >Thanks in advance,t >e
 >Guy Peleg >OpenVMS Engineering >aI >** Please note that this note is no commitment for actually developing a-2 >DCL debugger, this is only a survey that will not* >necessarily result in actual product..... >u >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:52:30 +0100f0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? 4 Message-ID: <bj52nv$oua$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:p > In article <b23ef1eaaa5aff0282a100870dac860c@news.teranews.com>, Ken Robinson <sendspamhere@rbnsn.com> writes: >  > I >>Other suggestions for DCL ... (I know you didn't ask, but why not :-) )' >> >>1) a for loop construct  >>2) a switch construct  >  > I > Presuming you mean a "case" statement, I use "computed GOTOs" for that..  A That works, but you can't do the default/otherwise: the error is o$ unrecoverable. I have to check with:/   $ search 'f$env("procedure")' switch_'value':?2   $ if ($severity.eq.1) then $ goto switch_'value'B (and that's not fireproof if the label is inside a subroutine, or  there's some similar problem)2   Chrisr   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:08:19 +0200# From: "Jean-Luc" <r-jl@lwanadoo.fr>@' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?t2 Message-ID: <bj53kk$4p1$1@s1.read.news.oleane.net>  # It would be very useful, I vote YESo   --        Jean-Luc RAYON       Systme & Rseaux    La Couronne C.E.P.A.P           B.P. 14       16400 La Couronne  http://www.lacouronne.com      ? "Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@hp.com> a crit dans le message de news:- 3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com...  >eE > The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to be@/ > added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2)./ ...t9 > Please post a reply with your comments or send me mail.v >u > Guy Pelegc > OpenVMS Engineeringc >yJ > ** Please note that this note is no commitment for actually developing a3 > DCL debugger, this is only a survey that will not + > necessarily result in actual product...../ >L >    ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:46:52 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?o. Message-ID: <bj55ts$fee$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  p Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com> writes in article <3F55DAA1.A38E175A@hp.com> dated Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:12:18 +0300: >oD >The DCL engineering team is currently evaluating new features to be. >added in future version of VMS (post V7.3-2). >vH >We were wondering if folks think that developing a DCL debugger will be% >useful. It won't be as sophisticatedcH >as the VMS debugger, I was thinking about implementing step,examine and >set break.   L I've usually found editing command procedures sufficient for debugging (i.e.J insert a STOP or a SHOW SYMBOL command).  IMHO if the script has a complexK enough state that setting it up is too much work or too much time to repeatn8 multiple times, you should be using a compiled language.  L I once inherited a problem reporting system written in DCL.  It tested fine,I but when the database (a text file) was populated with 20-some "records", J and DCL was searching through them for specific values in specific fields,J it started to get really slow.  I re-wrote the whole thing in PL/I using aI keyed file and SMG, and now the database contains over 10,000 records andg still works great.  G Here's an improvement I'd like to see in DCL -- a way to write to a MBAoL device which does the equivalent of IO$_WRITEVBLK | IO$M_NOW |IO$M_NORSWAIT.I DCL's WRITE command seems to wait for the message to be read on the otherr end before continuing.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgm> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:00:35 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger? . Message-ID: <bj56nj$fee$2@newslocal.mitre.org>   Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes in article <bj52nv$oua$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk> dated Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:52:30 +0100: >Larry Kilgallen wrote: q >> In article <b23ef1eaaa5aff0282a100870dac860c@news.teranews.com>, Ken Robinson <sendspamhere@rbnsn.com> writes:sJ >>>Other suggestions for DCL ... (I know you didn't ask, but why not :-) ) >>>n >>>1) a for loop construct >>>2) a switch construct >> gJ >> Presuming you mean a "case" statement, I use "computed GOTOs" for that. >LB >That works, but you can't do the default/otherwise: the error is  >unrecoverable.   & This recovers just fine for me, Chris.   $ dest := bad_label- $ on warning then goto default
 $ goto 'dest'M $ exit $!	 $default:x $ write sys$Output "Hello"   >I have to check with:0 >  $ search 'f$env("procedure")' switch_'value':3 >  $ if ($severity.eq.1) then $ goto switch_'value'GC >(and that's not fireproof if the label is inside a subroutine, or w >there's some similar problem)  K You can deal with the label collision problem by making your prefix unique,a e.g. "goto switch_1_'value'".d  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgN> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 11:48:20 -0500e; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i' Subject: RE: Do we need a DCL debugger?v3 Message-ID: <+ixScnZG66ze@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEEPHOAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:a > E > Guy, since you are working on the parser you could support both the-H > C and the PL/I like syntax with little effort, this would make it moreJ > REXX like.  Besides SELECT ... WHEN ... OTHERWISE is a lot more powerful2 > with the ALL and ANY options, (and reads better)  E    I agree with the previous comment:  more like Fortran 95, not moree@    like C.  IMHO PL/I doesn't look all that much like C, either.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:17:15 -0400 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>' Subject: Re: Do we need a DCL debugger?n- Message-ID: <3F55E9DB.19939.67AF70@localhost>s  - On 3 Sep 2003 at 16:46, Keith A. Lewis wrote: I > Here's an improvement I'd like to see in DCL -- a way to write to a MBAlN > device which does the equivalent of IO$_WRITEVBLK | IO$M_NOW |IO$M_NORSWAIT.K > DCL's WRITE command seems to wait for the message to be read on the other  > end before continuing.  C While we're wishing and hoping -- how about a way to exchange data rE with IP sockets on remote hosts?  That was a big subject some months E1 ago, and I don't remember it ever being resolved.   = As for someone else's comment that you shouldn't write "real  A programs" in DCL:  check out "Writing Real Programs in DCL".  An tC excellent book, worth every penny -- I read it cover-to-cover, and e% discovered all sorts of useful stuff./  
 --Stan Quayleg Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671o1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147o= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:01:50 +0300>" From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@hp.com>H Subject: Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members& Message-ID: <3F55D82E.EE548FB8@hp.com>   Yes for HSJ,HSG,HP FC.....  2 for 3rd party you'll have to check it yourself....   Guyi  
 Lee wrote:  : > Can DVE be implemented on any type of disk architecture?* > E.g., HSJ, HSG, HP FC, third-party FC... >o > Keith Parris wrote:a >a > > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01L0774ZGBQKAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...I > > > I understand that in 7.3-2 it will be possible to have two disks ofk& > > > different sizes in a shadow set. > >dE > > Right.  This is called Dissimilar Device Shadowing, or DDS (whereeH > > 'dissimilar' means in terms of size; geometry already doesn't matterI > > anymore).  See http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/v732features.htmlr > >oH > > > Presumably, the shadow set will have the size of the smaller disk. > >0
 > > Right. > >rC > > > (Would an option to make it appear even smaller be useful foro > > > anything?) > >8J > > To cut Shadowing full-copy and full-merge times, maybe?  But folks canH > > do that already with partitioning, at least on the controllers which > > support that.v > >sA > > > Can I then shadow BIG_DISK and LITTLE_DISK to make a shadowiK > > > set the size of LITTLE_DISK, then break the shadow set and rebuild itIK > > > with two disks the size of BIG_DISK and have the SHADOW SET have thisU > > > size as well?s > > E > > Once LITTLE_DISK has been removed from the shadowset, you can use I > > Dynamic Volume Expansion (DVE) to expand the effective volume size to  > > the size of BIG_DISK.: > >1G > > Then you can repeat this with each new generation of disk drives asnH > > they continue to get bigger.  (One could wish they might have gottenH > > faster to anywhere near as big a degree as they have gotten bigger.) >q > -- > Leek >5 > lytmah@telusplanet.net   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:09:26 +0100* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>H Subject: Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members+ Message-ID: <bj4lln$ogq@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>n  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0309021422.66cd1c02@posting.google.com...   C > Once LITTLE_DISK has been removed from the shadowset, you can use G > Dynamic Volume Expansion (DVE) to expand the effective volume size toa > the size of BIG_DISK.5 > E > Then you can repeat this with each new generation of disk drives asc > they continue to get bigger.  H As I understand it, DVE is at the filesystem level, so you would have toB preallocate the size of the largest disk you would ever use on the
 smallest one.   ; You thus couldn't preallocate space for EVEN_LARGER_DISK onn> BIG_DISK because the shadow copy would overwrite it. Or have I misunderstood?   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:55:33 +0200 (MET)o9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>xH Subject: Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members; Message-ID: <01L08CP57MGQAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>n  E > > Once LITTLE_DISK has been removed from the shadowset, you can use?I > > Dynamic Volume Expansion (DVE) to expand the effective volume size tot > > the size of BIG_DISK.t > >cG > > Then you can repeat this with each new generation of disk drives ast  > > they continue to get bigger. > J > As I understand it, DVE is at the filesystem level, so you would have toD > preallocate the size of the largest disk you would ever use on the > smallest one.  > F > You thus couldn't preallocate space for EVEN_LARGER_DISK on BIG_DISKG > because the shadow copy would overwrite it. Or have I misunderstood?     I'm confused too.  At   9    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/v732features.htmlp  
 one can read:o   Dynamic Volume Expansion  I     * Ability to initialize a device with a "maximum" size, to which the n&       volume can expand into over time  I     * Allows a disk of any size to be initialized to a larger size, such vG       that it can logically be expanded beyond the size of the initial b       disk size over time.I     * Allows a disk to be replaced with a larger one or to expand into a eH       virtual device which has a size greater than the size of a single        physical disk.  H This sounds to me like I have to know when I initialize LITTLE_DISK how 6 big BIG_DISK (which I might not even own yet) will be.  H My idea was this: if I have a two-member shadow set with each disk 2 GB,H I could replace one of the disks with a 4-GB disk (and still have a 2-GBC shadow set, of course) then, after the copy completes, replace the sH remaining 2-GB disk with another 4-GB disk, thus increasing the size of H my shadow set with no downtime.  Of course, the current 2-GB disks were 4 initialised normallly, not with a 4-GB disk in mind.   I'm confused too, right?   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 10:15:29 -0700e1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) H Subject: Re: dynamic volume expansion and different-sized shadow members= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0309030915.7b244d3d@posting.google.com>   | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01L08CP57MGQAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>... > I'm confused too.0  9 This was discussed in topic 3361 of the VMS conference on 7 Encompasserve. Here's a summary of the info from there:oL ----------------------------------------------------------------------------% 7.3-2 new features are summarized at:49    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/v732features.htmld  C If you want to play with it, the 7.3-2 EFT kit can be purchased forh
 $46.  See:0    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/732sdk.html@ Support is via the vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest newsgroup -- seeU http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=vmsnet.sdk.openvms.fieldtest N ------------------------------------------------------------------------------F This info was in session P078 (OpenVMS Storage & SAN Technical Update)
 at Amsterdam:y ---eD o  Storage arrays today can dynamically expand volumes (HSG/HSV/MSA)E o  OpenVMS cannot utilize the expanded volume without re-initializingsB o  OpenVMS dynamic volume expansion will allow allocation of extra bitmap spaceC    at $INITIALIZE time and then later be able to expand volume sizea	 while thea    device is mounted  ;      $ initialize /limit $1$dga100:  ! Allocates 1TB bitmape  <         Change volume size using storage sub-system commands  )      $ set volume $1$dga100: /size=xxxxxx   < o  For volumes initialized prior to 7.3-2, there will be the
 capability too=    dismount the volume, expand the size and re-mount (without  re-initializing     the volume)M -----------------------------------------------------------------------------oC I grabbed a copy of the 7.3-2 EFT kit and took a look.  The Release'E Notes say you can't change the volume size while a Write Bitmap is ine9 place (which makes sense).  The New Features manual says:o ---e9 "Dissimilar Device Shadowing and Dynamic Volume Expansioni  @ OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.3-2 supports the shadowing of dissimilarD devices that differ in size. This functionality is called dissimilarC device shadowing (DDS). To use DDS, all systems that have mounted a8E shadow set whose members differ in size must be running OpenVMS Alpha  Version 7.3-2.  B Prior to OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.3-2, Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSD required that all members of a shadow set be the same size, that is,@ that each member have the exact same number of blocks. The rapidE advance of disk technology has made this requirement impractical. TheaD flexibility of using different size devices outweighs the space that$ will be unused on the larger device.  D Operationally, shadowing dissimilar devices means that you can add aD larger disk device to an existing shadow set. The shadow set retainsF the file system size of the original shadow set. After adding a largerD disk, if you remove a smaller disk, the geometry (cylinders, tracks,A and sections) of the shadow set changes to the smallest remaining-D disk, but the logical volume size (that is, the file system size) is not changed.  E A complementary new feature, dynamic volume expansion, enables you toDC increase the logical volume size (amount of disk space allocated to@0 the file system) without dismounting the device.  C The basis of dynamic volume expansion is the one-time allocation of E extra bitmap space to the maximum size that will ever be used on thisiB volume (that is, 1 TB, if you want). This can be performed at diskF initialization time or by use of the SET VOLUME command. This makes itF possible to expand the volume size at a later time while the device is@ mounted. Note that to use the SET VOLUME command to increase theF expansion limit, the disk must be mounted privately. However, once theD expansion limit is set, the volume can be expanded while the disk is# mounted as shareable (MOUNT/SHARE).l  A Together, the features of dissimilar device shadowing and dynamicu@ volume expansion enable you to continually grow a logical volume. without ever having to take it off line again.  A For more information about shadowing dissimilar devices, refer toAC OpenVMS Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS. For information about dynamics@ volume expansion, refer to the OpenVMS System Manager's Manual." --- F (And I haven't gotten my hands on the 7.3-2 version of either of those
 manuals yet.) N ============================================================================== With regard to VAX support:@ ---rC VAX systems can tolerate the new pre-expanded BITMAP.SYS files, butlB will not have the new DCL commands/qualifiers added or support for dynamic expansion on-line.  F So if you have VAX systems in the cluster and need to use DDS/DVE, oneF would dismount the volume on the VAX, expand it on the Alpha side, and< when you're done, re-mount the now-larger volume on the VAX.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 06:58:28 -0700w. From: mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com (mist dragon)* Subject: New Itanium sales figures arrived< Message-ID: <7500353b.0309030558.b20d2ef@posting.google.com>  2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.html   Especially this sentence : a  B It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withE millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding Itanium D rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 systems combined.Q  @ Don't worry, Carly, we're only a decade into this Itanium thing.F There's plenty of time to pick things up. These numbers don't take theE Madison chip into account. It only arrived at mid-year. The third try  is sure to be the charm    Me   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:42:12 -0400$ From: "rob kas" <news@paychoice.com>. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived/ Message-ID: <vlc02kf3bp6mc4@corp.supernews.com>   ?  The New Itanium chip has some really good performance numbers. J  As long as Intel doesn't come out with a Yamill type chip , Itanium  will+ start selling sooner or in this case later.r  1                                               Rob     ; "mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in messageo6 news:7500353b.0309030558.b20d2ef@posting.google.com...4 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.html >  > Especially this sentence : > D > It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withG > millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding ItaniumtF > rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 > systems combined.  >tB > Don't worry, Carly, we're only a decade into this Itanium thing.H > There's plenty of time to pick things up. These numbers don't take theG > Madison chip into account. It only arrived at mid-year. The third try2 > is sure to be the charmT >L > M"   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:24:18 -0700* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived2 Message-ID: <TxudnfQYEcs-msuiXTWJhQ@mpowercom.net>  ; "mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message@6 news:7500353b.0309030558.b20d2ef@posting.google.com... > D > It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withG > millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding ItaniumwF > rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 > systems combined.h >iI And what percentage of that 3178 is going to VMS developers?  When I readiJ the article the first thought was that Itanium may fall into the same trapK as the Alpha...a proprietary HP chip manufactured by Intel.  Which does noteE bode well for Itanium since the reasons to drop the Alpha could applyn# equally well to the Itanium family.   G On the up side, with so few chips Intel certainly doesn't have to worryiI about fab capacity.  What does the quarterly production come to, about 25a> wafers?  A lifetime inventory of chips can be made in one run.  K The deafening silence from Intel on sales figures is reminiscent of Intel'suJ last Great Leap Forward, the revolutionary IAPX 432.  History does seem toL be repeating itself.  Maybe there's a lack of institutional memory at Intel?  I Despite the bad news I'm actually more optimistic about VMS now.  Not foruK the near term, but the eventual future when by necessity it will have to beiD ported to AMD.  Or even a 64 bit StrongArm/Xscale...VMS on your PDA.    Jack Peacocks   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:54:07 -0700' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>s. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived8 Message-ID: <20030903085407.388ffd5f.mathog@caltech.edu>   On 3 Sep 2003 06:58:28 -0700/ mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com (mist dragon) wrote:g  4 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.html >  > Especially this sentence : u > D > It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withG > millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding ItaniumDF > rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 > systems combined.i >   B The real fun will come when Intel starts amortizing the true costsC for the Itanic by adding them on to the retail price of the chip.  h  B Certainly at this time the "retail price" of the Itanium is a pure> economic fantasy.  It has no relationship whatsoever to any ofA the costs associated with the chip.  Given the zillion to 1 ratio C between the actual costs and the sales price, and the minute numbereA of units shipped, they might as well just give them away for free ( and label them all engineering samples.    Hmm.  ? Is HP actually paying Intel per Itanium unit, as they would forn> other Intel CPUs?  If so, it would be interesting to know just how much they cost HP.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:14:04 GMTe  From: CJT <cheljuba@prodigy.net>. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived* Message-ID: <3F5613AF.2080007@prodigy.net>   rob kas wrote:  A >  The New Itanium chip has some really good performance numbers.gL >  As long as Intel doesn't come out with a Yamill type chip , Itanium  will- > start selling sooner or in this case later.g >    Like the Alpha before it?.  3 >                                               RobI >  > = > "mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in messageh8 > news:7500353b.0309030558.b20d2ef@posting.google.com... > 4 >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.html >> >>Especially this sentence : >>D >>It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withG >>millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding ItaniumeF >>rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 >>systems combined.  >>B >>Don't worry, Carly, we're only a decade into this Itanium thing.H >>There's plenty of time to pick things up. These numbers don't take theG >>Madison chip into account. It only arrived at mid-year. The third trya >>is sure to be the charm. >> >>Mu >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:17:58 GMT3  From: CJT <cheljuba@prodigy.net>. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived( Message-ID: <3F561499.10309@prodigy.net>   David Mathog wrote:)   > On 3 Sep 2003 06:58:28 -07001 > mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com (mist dragon) wrote:  >  > 4 >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.html >> >>Especially this sentence : n >>D >>It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withG >>millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding ItaniumtF >>rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 >>systems combined.- >> >  > D > The real fun will come when Intel starts amortizing the true costsE > for the Itanic by adding them on to the retail price of the chip.  - > D > Certainly at this time the "retail price" of the Itanium is a pure@ > economic fantasy.  It has no relationship whatsoever to any ofC > the costs associated with the chip.  Given the zillion to 1 ratio0E > between the actual costs and the sales price, and the minute numbernC > of units shipped, they might as well just give them away for freef* > and label them all engineering samples.  >   G How many Itaniums (Itaniae?) does one wafer yield?  Or perhaps I should 1 ask how many wafers it takes to yield an Itanium?e  E So how many wafers have they processed as production to be sold?  How  many hours did that take?i   > Hmm. > A > Is HP actually paying Intel per Itanium unit, as they would for$@ > other Intel CPUs?  If so, it would be interesting to know just > how much they cost HP. > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu@ > Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:21:43 GMT89 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>n. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived2 Message-ID: <ryo5b.3967$IX5.1209@news.cpqcorp.net>  I Come on.  Slow day or something?  This looks like a rehash of crap from 6HJ months ago -- oh, maybe someone saw 3/9/2003 and flipped the month and theL date.  Typical.  Nor are the numbers anything but a IDC guess.  They are not" from HP.  They are not from Intel.    ; "mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in messageS6 news:7500353b.0309030558.b20d2ef@posting.google.com...4 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.html >D > Especially this sentence : >oD > It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withG > millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding Itanium:F > rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72 > systems combined.1 >GB > Don't worry, Carly, we're only a decade into this Itanium thing.H > There's plenty of time to pick things up. These numbers don't take theG > Madison chip into account. It only arrived at mid-year. The third try  > is sure to be the charmt >  > Mt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:08:33 -0400e* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived) Message-ID: <3F56200A.45962C0A@istop.com>    rob kas wrote: > A >  The New Itanium chip has some really good performance numbers.sL >  As long as Intel doesn't come out with a Yamill type chip , Itanium  will- > start selling sooner or in this case later.i  G Does HP currently still sell more Pa-risc based systems than IA64 baseda	 systems ?   J Until IA64 sells more units than the combination of Pa-Risc, Alpha and theL tandem-destined MIPS, then it is still a newborn chip struggling to catch up
 inside of HP.M  M And until IA64 sales exceeed 8096 architecture sales (in units shipped, not $lE value), then IA64 is still very far away from gaining the designationb "industry standard".  J Actually, "newborn" is perhaps the wrong word. Logically, there is anotherG term used to describe a 10 year old with still the mental capacity of ac newborn :-) :-) :-) :-) ;-)(   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:14:18 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived) Message-ID: <bj57h9$pog$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   n In article <ryo5b.3967$IX5.1209@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> writes:J >Come on.  Slow day or something?  This looks like a rehash of crap from 6K >months ago -- oh, maybe someone saw 3/9/2003 and flipped the month and the  >date.    E The register is based in the UK where 3/9/2003 is 3rd September 2003.aK You can find this article referenced from the "IBM's server safety net has  J HP at a loss" on the register frontpage which is explicitly dated there asK 3 September 2003 - when you link to that article you will find it is by theh' same person and also is dated 3/9/2003.d  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University  F >Typical.  Nor are the numbers anything but a IDC guess.  They are not# >from HP.  They are not from Intel.s >I >v< >"mist dragon" <mistdragon@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message7 >news:7500353b.0309030558.b20d2ef@posting.google.com...O5 >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32619.htmlo >> >> Especially this sentence :I >>E >> It looks like HP is the Itanium ecosystem. In a server market withgH >> millions of units shipped overall per quarter, HP is pounding ItaniumG >> rivals into the ground with 3,178 Itanium sales. The rest shipped 72d >> systems combined. >>C >> Don't worry, Carly, we're only a decade into this Itanium thing.sI >> There's plenty of time to pick things up. These numbers don't take theaH >> Madison chip into account. It only arrived at mid-year. The third try >> is sure to be the charm >> >> M >u >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:22:22 -0400d* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>. Subject: Re: New Itanium sales figures arrived) Message-ID: <3F562346.C779CEE7@istop.com>0   Jack Peacock wrote:-L > the article the first thought was that Itanium may fall into the same trap> > as the Alpha...a proprietary HP chip manufactured by Intel.   I In the case of Alpha, it was clearly owned by Digital, and that made someaL difficulties in making it easy for competitors of Digital to use Alpha since* Digital wanted to keep its competive edge.  I In the case of IA64, how much "onwership" of IA64 does HP still have ?  I N guess as long as IA64 has lackluster performance that doesn't give HP any edgeL over competitors, HP won't mind if anyone else uses it. As a matter of fact,J it would be to HP's advantage to have has many people as possible stuck on9 IA64 since if it lags in performance , HP won't be alone.e  K But if IA64 magically becomes very fast at economical price, would HP stille6 really want to "share" the chip with its competitors ?  B What Intel needs to do, if it wants IA64 to succeed is to make theL architecture available to competitors for second source, and for HP/Intel toN make public the agreements over who controls what of IA64's future. Until thisT happens, I consider IA64 to be an HP chip whose development was outsourced to Intel.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 05:36:44 -0700w( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Security = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0309030436.7d42bac6@posting.google.com>r   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<biiq2a$kg5$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...i > ; > Your OpenVMS is perfect everything else is a lump of S**Tg > 	 > Regardst > Andrew HarrisonS  / why Andrew, I think you have finally got it! :)n/ and the cert counts and clustering comparisionse	 prove it!    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 05:41:12 -0700n( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Securityn= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0309030441.6e9368ab@posting.google.com>b   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bikt4f$ce1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > > > However it is that inaccurate historical record that Bob has@ > been trying to mine for FUD collateral against other operating
 > systems. > 	 > Regardsh > Andrew Harrisone  > your the one trying to claim certs are inaccurate because your; slowaris along w/all the other unix/windoze garbage is just  that, GARBAGE!   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 03 Sep 03 08:42:46 GMTb From: jmfbahciv@aol.comk$ Subject: Re: PDP-11 OS Release Dates+ Message-ID: <bj4dh7$o5j$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   2 In article <bj32bd$2rve$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,,    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:   Whew!  Finally..   >You know, you're right.  7 I know since I've been using this EDLIN on this system..  3 > .. The EDLIN on DOS doesn't look or work like the G >editor I was remembering. I did find myself using one, though, back in K >the early '80s that had a name like that but looked like a "line oriented" 5 >TECO. I was certain that was EDLIN, but clearly I'm t" >confusing two different programs.  ? It could have been something called the same thing.  Or, if theS= distributor was being cute, he might have dropped (or added) e= a letter or two from the name.  I got mildly offended when I  = first used EDLIN.  My first reaction was whythehell did they c; swap syllables  (or would these pieces be called phrases?) o since EDLIN seemed to be LINED.s   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:10:32 GMTm2 From: "Ken Farmer" <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com>% Subject: RE: PowerPoint slides on VMSs> Message-ID: <YSk5b.48057$5H4.2264675@twister.southeast.rr.com>  J From now on I will convert .ppt slides into .gif's and compress in a .zip.L The .zip will also be made available for download.  Please give it a try andI let me know if you have problems.  I tried saving the BCS presentation inoG .html but got an error, plus the .html filenames will have spaces which B presents another problem.  Gif/zip seems to be the easiest method.  9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=03/08/29/3410320.   Ken    -- Kenneth Farmer  <><' OpenVMS.org  |  dcl.OpenVMS.org'   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:23:42 GMTi" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG% Subject: RE: PowerPoint slides on VMSl0 Message-ID: <00A2558D.E8F3A6CB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  s In article <YSk5b.48057$5H4.2264675@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Ken Farmer" <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> writes: K >From now on I will convert .ppt slides into .gif's and compress in a .zip.,M >The .zip will also be made available for download.  Please give it a try andnJ >let me know if you have problems.  I tried saving the BCS presentation inI >..html but got an error, plus the .html filenames will have spaces whicheC >presents another problem.  Gif/zip seems to be the easiest method.    Yeah!    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:59:15 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: RdB on EVA ?a8 Message-ID: <kl3clv8ce245pb555qje06hn55bu7m9bsk@4ax.com>  K On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:26:54 GMT, "Jeff Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com>6 wrote:  L >I posted on this a couple of months ago and got some excellent, but varyingM >opinions.  In the end, we went with two separate disk groups, one for the DB  >and one for the journals.  F This can go either way, depending on your paranoia level.  At the veryG least, I'd go with a separate lun - not for performance (since they alleC LUNs in a disk group use the same spindles), but for LUN corruptioni0 problems (re-initializing, deleting *.*;*, etc).  J If you're more paranoid, create a second disk group (smaller) for logs and% create those LUNs from the 2nd group.a  I And if you're REALLY paranoid, buy another storage subsystem and put LUNsf for logs there..   >e> >"Lars Holmstrm" <lars.holmstrom@flysta.net> wrote in message# >news:3f550e5c$1@news.wineasy.se...u: >> Does any one have experience of running RdB on an EVA ?L >> AFAIK Oracle recommend having journalling files on a separate volume. How >isg >> this done on an EVA ? >> /Lars >> >> >h   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 03 08:05:42 +0200 ) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)e@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available) Message-ID: <3pTjL7hpEEVk@elias.decus.ch>   U In article <00A25508.F37FCEEE@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:rl > In article <YV7hrS64V6ZV@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:e >>In article <3F4FBD61.BD711996@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:b >>> Ken Farmer wrote:n >>>> eQ >>>> I got the .ppt and knew many who didn't get to attend HP World would like tot
 >>>> view it.  >>> ? >>> And thank you for your efforts to make it available to us !,> >>> PPT is just fine, I'm sure 99% of those *working* with VMS7 >>> also has access to a PC so *that* is a non-issue...  >>> 
 >>> Jan-Erik.e >>D >>Here's an idea for Ken.  While ppt files can be viewed eventually,@ >>you should be able to use PowerPointless to convert the slides@ >>into html.  I do that at work when someone gives me a ppt file7 >>I am supposed to use to update our intranet webpages.  >>= >>I like to do as much of my work at work on the VMS desktop.sA >>Converting ppts to html helps.  The html generated is horrible, ' >>but _can_ be viewed by mozilla (SWB).t >> >>Just my $.02 > K > I did't see Jan-Erik's post but PPT is not just fine for the -- accordingkK > to Jan-Erik's cited statistic -- 1% of is that do not.  It's a BIG issue; L > not a non-issue.  Even if I *did* have access to a PeeCee -- like I might J > take the file to the local library -- I wouldn't have the first clue how > to run this PPT presentation.: >   D But it's even worse than that in this case. We do have PowerPlonk at4 work, but this particular file gives something like:  D "This was created using a later version of PowerPoint than you have.! Download converter from the web?"   L I answer "No" (we are forbidden to download software from the web, and don't> have the privilege to install it either), and it then pops up:   "Cannot open this file"n   Totally bloody useless.-  L > Acceptable, cross-platform standards...  I'm all for having these present-L > ations made available on the web in a HTML or PDF (yea, that's another canK > of worms) but stick PPT back up Billy G's alimentary canal output orifice<K > from whence it came please... oh, or give me a tool -- a VMS tool -- thatr > can be used to view it.u >    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 03 08:11:54 +0200I) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) @ Subject: RE: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available) Message-ID: <qjPEfSlG$FZF@elias.decus.ch>A  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEDLHOAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:m >  >  >>-----Original Message-----D >>From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG]+ >>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 3:32 PM  >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComnB >>Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available >> >>6 >>In article <YV7hrS64V6ZV@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 8 >>kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:4 >>>In article <3F4FBD61.BD711996@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik 4 >>=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes: >>>> Ken Farmer wrote: >>>>> E >>>>> I got the .ppt and knew many who didn't get to attend HP World u >>would like tor >>>>> view it. >>>>  @ >>>> And thank you for your efforts to make it available to us !? >>>> PPT is just fine, I'm sure 99% of those *working* with VMSe8 >>>> also has access to a PC so *that* is a non-issue... >>>> y >>>> Jan-Erik. >>>eE >>>Here's an idea for Ken.  While ppt files can be viewed eventually,tA >>>you should be able to use PowerPointless to convert the slidesdA >>>into html.  I do that at work when someone gives me a ppt filee8 >>>I am supposed to use to update our intranet webpages. >>>1> >>>I like to do as much of my work at work on the VMS desktop.B >>>Converting ppts to html helps.  The html generated is horrible,( >>>but _can_ be viewed by mozilla (SWB). >>>- >>>Just my $.02e >>K >>I did't see Jan-Erik's post but PPT is not just fine for the -- accordingdK >>to Jan-Erik's cited statistic -- 1% of is that do not.  It's a BIG issue;DL >>not a non-issue.  Even if I *did* have access to a PeeCee -- like I might J >>take the file to the local library -- I wouldn't have the first clue how >>to run this PPT presentation.? > J > You left double click on the icon or rigth click and left click on open.H > The battle you are fighting was lost long ago.  A neutral observation.8 > It's just a tool, not a way of life.  Time to move on. >   I But the battle continues on this occasion because it wants me to downloadfH more software to convert one proprietary format into another, presumably even more proprietary format.e  > It's a matter of "the straw that broke the camel's back" here.  a >>L >>Acceptable, cross-platform standards...  I'm all for having these present-L >>ations made available on the web in a HTML or PDF (yea, that's another canK >>of worms) but stick PPT back up Billy G's alimentary canal output orificeeK >>from whence it came please... oh, or give me a tool -- a VMS tool -- thatf >>can be used to view it.t >> >>--9 >>VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     n >>VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:55:19 GMTs4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available0 Message-ID: <3F55D4A1.E3D6F22B@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Koehler wrote: > l > In article <YV7hrS64V6ZV@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:g > > In article <3F4FBD61.BD711996@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:h > >> Ken Farmer wrote: > >>>aR > >>> I got the .ppt and knew many who didn't get to attend HP World would like to > >>> view it. > F >    I was suprized to find it was a version of PPT my Office couldn'tG >    read (decision having come from higher up not to upgrade existringS
 >    copies).6 >   W You can also get a free up to date Powerpoint Viewer from Microsoft last time I looked.iJ Whether you violate your corporate desktop policy by installing it I don't know.h   >    OpenOffice to the rescue.   -- r tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:59:47 GMTe4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available0 Message-ID: <3F55D5AC.FCCEAC65@blueyonder.co.uk>   Paul Sture wrote:t >   d > F > But it's even worse than that in this case. We do have PowerPlonk at6 > work, but this particular file gives something like: > F > "This was created using a later version of PowerPoint than you have.# > Download converter from the web?"  > N > I answer "No" (we are forbidden to download software from the web, and don't@ > have the privilege to install it either), and it then pops up: >  > "Cannot open this file"M >  > Totally bloody useless.B >   dL Depends on your perspective. If you then proceed to request that you require; an upgrade to the application, Microsoft make another sale.d   sigh   -- c tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:41:04 -0500p- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available3 Message-ID: <ZjXEW$Cd9Qto@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  g In article <3F55D4A1.E3D6F22B@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:   Y > You can also get a free up to date Powerpoint Viewer from Microsoft last time I looked. L > Whether you violate your corporate desktop policy by installing it I don't > know.d  N And if it did not violate security rules, would it work on VAX or just Alpha ?   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:43:02 -0500a; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available3 Message-ID: <e1ZIx1g7A9v4@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  g In article <3F55D4A1.E3D6F22B@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:  > Y > You can also get a free up to date Powerpoint Viewer from Microsoft last time I looked.oL > Whether you violate your corporate desktop policy by installing it I don't > know.f  G    Powerpoint wanted to download a converter for me.  www.microsoft.comh    was not responding.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:50:12 GMTe+ From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) @ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available8 Message-ID: <8sl5b.2714$Hn4.59633@twister.austin.rr.com>  < Bob Koehler (koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org) wrote: :aI :    Powerpoint wanted to download a converter for me.  www.microsoft.comi :    was not responding. :   # Could this explain the problem ?...n  /    http://news.com.com/2100-1032_3-5070463.htmli9    Road Runner glitch bars users from MSN | CNET News.com1   --Jerry Leslie m9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email:   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:08:58 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available0 Message-ID: <3F55E5E0.C749B393@blueyonder.co.uk>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > i > In article <3F55D4A1.E3D6F22B@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:  > [ > > You can also get a free up to date Powerpoint Viewer from Microsoft last time I looked. N > > Whether you violate your corporate desktop policy by installing it I don't	 > > know.d > P > And if it did not violate security rules, would it work on VAX or just Alpha ?   <irony mode on>w  N Neither of course. Powerpoint is a propietary solution, so it is bound to failH as a business solution like other propietary systems that were discarded7 in the face of "open" or "industry standard" solutions.-   <irony mode off> -- - tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:08:49 -0400m* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available) Message-ID: <3F55F5EE.7B93E1F2@istop.com>    Tom Linden wrote:mD > Anybody else have a distaste for the phrase "retain trust", pretty	 > feeble.a  H "retain trust" = "we admit we made a verty big mistake with the "plan ofM record" (aka: killing alpha) and must now reduce the damage by bribing enoughh customers to stay with us.   Trust is earned, not purchased.t   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 11:44:30 -0500t; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o@ Subject: Re: Rich Marcello's BCS Strategy Presentation available3 Message-ID: <Awtno1DEJMiW@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  f In article <8sl5b.2714$Hn4.59633@twister.austin.rr.com>, LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) writes:> > Bob Koehler (koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org) wrote: > :sK > :    Powerpoint wanted to download a converter for me.  www.microsoft.comi > :    was not responding. > :  > % > Could this explain the problem ?...   F    To me >.microsoft.< is the problem.  But sometimes they make me use6    it, so I have it.  It didn't come out of my pocket.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:35:11 -0400e* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>< Subject: Re: The Dell Effect (Was: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 ...)) Message-ID: <3F55EE0E.256AC4B2@istop.com>   ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:4 > However IBM, HP and Sun are manufacturers and Dell1 > isn't its a very efficient channel to market orh > distribution company.i  I When you consider only wintel operations, in what way are IBM HP and DELLpM different ? Seems to me that they are all manufacturers, but that their orderi1 taking, sales and distribution is very different.   P I consider Dell to be as much a manufacturer as HP or IBM for the Wintel market.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:54:34 +0100 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>o< Subject: Re: The Dell Effect (Was: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 ...)0 Message-ID: <bj4vd3$1ub$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote: * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > 4 >>However IBM, HP and Sun are manufacturers and Dell1 >>isn't its a very efficient channel to market orn >>distribution company.a >  > K > When you consider only wintel operations, in what way are IBM HP and DELL O > different ? Seems to me that they are all manufacturers, but that their ordera3 > taking, sales and distribution is very different.m > R > I consider Dell to be as much a manufacturer as HP or IBM for the Wintel market.  C IBM at least design systems and produce Intel support chipsets, the I x440 for example uses IBM Enterprise X Architecture which they developed r& and the systems are also built by IBM.  C Dell don't do this, the same vendor that builds the Sun V60/65 alsoaB builds the equivalent Dell .So equivalent that the main differenceB between the two systems is the front bezel which of course Sun and Dell both design.u   Regards  Andrew Harrisonk   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 08:47:22 -0000a4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>! Subject: Re: The vmsnet hierarchys6 Message-ID: <20030903084722.12832.qmail@gacracker.org>  J On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca> wrote: >Doc.Cypher wrote:  = >> UDP the SoBs.  Ask your peers to impose a UDP on them too.= >The ISP8 >> responsible for this little band of pirates should be >isolated untile. >> such time as they put their house in order.  : >Last February I asked the people at news.cis.dfn.de to do9 >that, they responded that they were already aware of thes0 >garbage going on in VMSNET, but they also said; >v8 >    We could easily block _all_ articles that have been >transported via the= >    teleline.es server since such a "path exclude" is a main- >element in ; >    keeping the news article transport efficient. However,i >such a "passive> >    UDP" would also affect a large number of regular articles >so we will nots< >    impose it on our own, perhaps after a longer discussion >amoung news+ >    admins and/or in the net-abuse groups.P > = >So if the people here that also run news servers would startt? >complaining in the net-abuse groups then maybe a large part oft< >the usenet community would take part in a UDP and get these >idiots off the net.  M A few months ago I asked my ISP if they could do something about the problem, K and mentioned that a UDP might be appropriate.  For several weeks the abusenI vanished (at least as far as I could see).  Not only should those running J servers bring up the subject in the appropriate newsgroups, readers should8 also petition their ISP or news service to impose a UDP.     Doc. -- gK OpenVMS.         Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.aK [New PGP Key - Get via finger]                        http://vmsbox.cjb.net'   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:50:36 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>! Subject: Re: TPU Section files... ) Message-ID: <3F561BD6.BEBEF6C1@istop.com>w   > >>$edit <file> > >>replace3 > >>~8 > >>crlf > >>allo > >>exit   Haven't tested it but:   mycommand.tpu: exit;t  T $edit/nodisplay/section=sys$library:eve$section.tpu$section/command=sys$input <file> crlf := ASCII(13) + ASCII(10) ;s eve$$x_global_replace := TRUE ;r' position(beginning_of(current_buffer));t eve_replace("~",crlf); exit; , $write sys$output "Changes done to the file"    M Note that the resulting file will be variable length and the CR-LF characters'M will part of lines, they will not be splitting lines. If you then convert thepM file to stream (or some correct variation thereof), then your crlfs will have  become end of line terminators.-  M If you want to truly split lines within TPU, you might want to take a look ateE sys$examples:eve$edit.tpu for the eve*replace* procedures, especiallysN eve$$replace_loop where you could perhaps change that code to remove the ~ andB issue a SPLIT_LINE command instead of adding the replacement text.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 05:21:26 -0700I1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) = Subject: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept = Message-ID: <857e9e41.0309030421.285a2fc2@posting.google.com>   D Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003C zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. Dery? Schwerpunkt der Veranstaltung liegt im technischen Bereich, mitn; internationalen OpenVMS-Engineering Spezialisten, aber auchiA Businessthemen mit renommierten Sprechern von der Hewlett-Packard D Corporation. Die Veranstaltung beinhaltet ein breites Themenspektrum von Technik und Wissen.b? Logistik: Der Veranstaltungsort ist das Hofgut Kronenhof in Bado Homburg.A Hofgut Kronenhof, Zeppelinstr. 10, D-61352 Bad Homburg v. d. Hhe E Die Veranstaltung beginnt am 22. September 2003 um 8.00 Uhr und endetu= am Folgetag gegen 17.00 Uhr. OpenVMS-Engineering werden tiefe 9 Einblicke in die Itanium-Architektur und -Systeme bieten. 7 Diedetailierte Agenda finden Sie unter www.hpevents.de.m  B Netherlands - Sept 25-26 Information about the Netherlands OpenVMSC Technical Update Days can be found at: http://www.hp.nl/openvms-tud  The event will be held inn> Congrescentre De Reehorst in Ede (halfway Utrecht and Arnhem);9 http://www.reehorst.nl/Bereik/bereik.htm for the address.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 07:58:42 -0500l- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).A Subject: Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Septr3 Message-ID: <QwNWRDun0VbH@eisner.encompasserve.org>/  q In article <857e9e41.0309030421.285a2fc2@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:uF > Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003E > zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. Der,A > Schwerpunkt der Veranstaltung liegt im technischen Bereich, mit = > internationalen OpenVMS-Engineering Spezialisten, aber auchsC > Businessthemen mit renommierten Sprechern von der Hewlett-Packard F > Corporation. Die Veranstaltung beinhaltet ein breites Themenspektrum > von Technik und Wissen. A > Logistik: Der Veranstaltungsort ist das Hofgut Kronenhof in Bad 
 > Homburg.C > Hofgut Kronenhof, Zeppelinstr. 10, D-61352 Bad Homburg v. d. HheeG > Die Veranstaltung beginnt am 22. September 2003 um 8.00 Uhr und endett? > am Folgetag gegen 17.00 Uhr. OpenVMS-Engineering werden tiefem; > Einblicke in die Itanium-Architektur und -Systeme bieten.o9 > Diedetailierte Agenda finden Sie unter www.hpevents.de.   G I presume Usenet conventions allow for some of our German colleagues tolG ask detailed technical questions of the original poster in the language  she used :-)  D > Netherlands - Sept 25-26 Information about the Netherlands OpenVMSE > Technical Update Days can be found at: http://www.hp.nl/openvms-tude > The event will be held inr@ > Congrescentre De Reehorst in Ede (halfway Utrecht and Arnhem);; > http://www.reehorst.nl/Bereik/bereik.htm for the address.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:57:41 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>A Subject: Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Sept 9 Message-ID: <bj4opg$fdm8c$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>w  + On 2003-09-03 14:21, "Sue Skonetski" wrote:0  F > Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003E > zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. Der  > [...]u > D > Netherlands - Sept 25-26 Information about the Netherlands OpenVMSE > Technical Update Days can be found at: http://www.hp.nl/openvms-tud7 > [...]   B What about putting these information on the "OpenVMS events" page?  C BTW: <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/events/index.html> is redirected to D <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/events/EXTERNALCALENDARBYDATE.HTML> which= simply results in a "HTTP 404 - File not found" error ... :-(s   Michaelh   -- .; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.a@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.5= And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)2   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 13:24:22 GMTe( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)A Subject: Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Septt9 Message-ID: <bj4q25$fgghe$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   3 In article <QwNWRDun0VbH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,H0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:s > In article <857e9e41.0309030421.285a2fc2@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:tG >> Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003 F >> zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. DerB >> Schwerpunkt der Veranstaltung liegt im technischen Bereich, mit> >> internationalen OpenVMS-Engineering Spezialisten, aber auchD >> Businessthemen mit renommierten Sprechern von der Hewlett-PackardG >> Corporation. Die Veranstaltung beinhaltet ein breites Themenspektrume >> von Technik und Wissen.B >> Logistik: Der Veranstaltungsort ist das Hofgut Kronenhof in Bad >> Homburg.eD >> Hofgut Kronenhof, Zeppelinstr. 10, D-61352 Bad Homburg v. d. HheH >> Die Veranstaltung beginnt am 22. September 2003 um 8.00 Uhr und endet@ >> am Folgetag gegen 17.00 Uhr. OpenVMS-Engineering werden tiefe< >> Einblicke in die Itanium-Architektur und -Systeme bieten.: >> Diedetailierte Agenda finden Sie unter www.hpevents.de. > I > I presume Usenet conventions allow for some of our German colleagues to I > ask detailed technical questions of the original poster in the languageo > she used :-) >   E After the tirades in the past over non-english postings I was waitingF9 to see if this one would elicit any unfavorable response.:  B And, to answer your question, I have never hesitated to answer anyC question in any language that was within my ability in any newgroupl in which they appear.o   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:26:30 +0200e$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>A Subject: Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Septn9 Message-ID: <bj4qif$f58ge$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>   - On 2003-09-03 14:58, "Larry Kilgallen" wrote:u  s > In article <857e9e41.0309030421.285a2fc2@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:rG >> Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003eF >> zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. Der >> [...] > I > I presume Usenet conventions allow for some of our German colleagues to I > ask detailed technical questions of the original poster in the language  > she used :-) >  >> [...]  F I don't think so; even the agenda for these "Technical Update Days" is given in English (PDF file).  K But a *cross-posting* to "*de*.comp.os.vms" would have been nice of course.e  H BTW: Members of DECUS Munich got the invitation to this event via e-mail on Aug 11th.   Michaell   -- n; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.r@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.a= And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)t   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 09:31:33 -0500t- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) A Subject: Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Septd3 Message-ID: <W$cgMvFx8Bud@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <bj4qif$f58ge$2@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>, Michael Unger <unger@decus.de> writes:/ > On 2003-09-03 14:58, "Larry Kilgallen" wrote:- > t >> In article <857e9e41.0309030421.285a2fc2@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes:H >>> Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003G >>> zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. Der"	 >>> [...]a >> aJ >> I presume Usenet conventions allow for some of our German colleagues toJ >> ask detailed technical questions of the original poster in the language >> she used :-)  >> h	 >>> [...]  > H > I don't think so; even the agenda for these "Technical Update Days" is > given in English (PDF file). > M > But a *cross-posting* to "*de*.comp.os.vms" would have been nice of course.   A No, a cross-posting between newsgroups which default to differentt@ languages would *not* be good.  Perhaps a duplicate posting, but? made by one of the German-speaking VMS Ambassadors.  If only we 0 can connect Sue with that end of her company :-)  J > BTW: Members of DECUS Munich got the invitation to this event via e-mail > on Aug 11th.   Good work !i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:47:17 GMTd, From: "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com>A Subject: Re: two more VMS Technical Update Days in Europe in Septc1 Message-ID: <92o5b.3959$FU5.414@news.cpqcorp.net>t  1 The calendar extract process is broken right now.i  F The database that contains the 'calendar' (an internal db with ALL bcs  events, visits etc) has moved toL a new db and new server and the extract of 'publishable' events isn't online yete  J I didn't get notified until after it stopped working so I didn't manage to. catch a recent page (it's an automagic system) and stop the update process.  L so I figured I'd just let it go since eventually they will start putting the$ extract back into my dropbox and the process will restart itself..    -warrenf  1 "Michael Unger" <unger@decus.de> wrote in messagel3 news:bj4opg$fdm8c$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de...t- > On 2003-09-03 14:21, "Sue Skonetski" wrote:  > H > > Germany - Sept 22-23 wir mchten Sie gerne am 22./23. September 2003G > > zu den HP OpenVMS TechnicalUpdate Days in Bad Homburg einladen. Der 	 > > [...]r > >nF > > Netherlands - Sept 25-26 Information about the Netherlands OpenVMSG > > Technical Update Days can be found at: http://www.hp.nl/openvms-tude	 > > [...]  >nD > What about putting these information on the "OpenVMS events" page? > E > BTW: <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/events/index.html> is redirected tonF > <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/events/EXTERNALCALENDARBYDATE.HTML> which? > simply results in a "HTTP 404 - File not found" error ... :-(l >s	 > Michaelt >  > -- 4= > Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.fB > Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityC > Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.t? > And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)t >u   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:19:50 +0200b$ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>G Subject: Re: Using multiple Radeon 7500 PCI cards in a DS10 running VMSi9 Message-ID: <bj4ghc$f035u$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>-  ( On 2003-09-03 02:45, "Mike Mouat" wrote:  H > We have used multiple 3DLabs VX1 graphics cards in a DS10 running VMS.C > Unfortunately we appear to see a bug (graphics freeze for up to amA > minute) when X windows graphics are sent quickly to one or moreaF > screens (this hangup does not happen when the same graphics are sentH > to a VXT2000 or to a PC running XWin32). We bought a Radeon 7500 boardE > and installed it and the new driver. With one card in the system itgG > runs well and the freeze-ups are gone. If we put a second card in the G > DS10, the console recognizes both cards (GHA0 and GHB0) and at systemm@ > boot the system sees both devices but neither screen goes intoF > graphics mode when the boot is complete. One screen goes into serialG > mode. The console has its "console" variable set to "graphics" and isrH > running firmware version 6.5. Are multiple Radeon 7500s not supported?A > If they are not currently supported will they be in the future?n  G According to the current QuickSpecs (DA-10908, Version 23, 31-Jul-2003)aG the maximum number of Radeon 7500 Graphics Adapters are: 4 (2D only), 1rB (3D), 1 (dual head) for Tru64, V5.1B; 1 (2D/3D), 0 (dual head) forF OpenVMS, V7.3-1 with TIMA kit DEC-AXPVMS-VMS731_GRAPHICS-V0200-4.PCSI.   Michael3   -- 4; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.a@ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system.e= And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:15:41 GMTT9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>aG Subject: Re: Using multiple Radeon 7500 PCI cards in a DS10 running VMS'2 Message-ID: <Nso5b.3965$tM5.3614@news.cpqcorp.net>  / "Mike Mouat" <mouat@triumf.ca> wrote in messageb7 news:995241af.0309021645.4650b4a5@posting.google.com...tH > We have used multiple 3DLabs VX1 graphics cards in a DS10 running VMS.C > Unfortunately we appear to see a bug (graphics freeze for up to a A > minute) when X windows graphics are sent quickly to one or moreMF > screens (this hangup does not happen when the same graphics are sent* > to a VXT2000 or to a PC running XWin32).  I First I've heard of this.  Do you have a support contract?  Please file a H bug report.  Do you have a reproducer?  What version of VMS?  Version ofK Motif?  Is it normal multi-head or Panaramix?  Is there anything unusual ind! the DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG file?7   >We bought a Radeon 7500 boardE > and installed it and the new driver. With one card in the system it G > runs well and the freeze-ups are gone. If we put a second card in thevG > DS10, the console recognizes both cards (GHA0 and GHB0) and at system @ > boot the system sees both devices but neither screen goes intoF > graphics mode when the boot is complete. One screen goes into serialG > mode. The console has its "console" variable set to "graphics" and is/H > running firmware version 6.5. Are multiple Radeon 7500s not supported?  K Correct.  The primary requirement for the initial kit was single headed AGP  graphics on EV7 systems.  A > If they are not currently supported will they be in the future?8 >8  9 In about 3-4 weeks.  We are in final qual for multi-head.7   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 12:11:06 GMTe( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32509 Message-ID: <bj4loq$ff4qv$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   , In article <3f551044$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,- 	"Paul A. Jacobi" <nospan@nospam.com> writes:  > 5 > "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 4 > news:3v89lvoesej6nfk9u2o35nda8ugo08rgvm@4ax.com...G >> On 28 Aug 2003 07:56:01 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  > wrote: >>B >> Personally, I'd love to see HP institute some kind of 3rd-partyH >> qualification program.  I don't know what that involves, however.  ItG >> appears to me that qualification is not trivial, however, and if you>I >> include clusters, it becomes exponentially more complex to get all thes >> combinations. > F > Testing of VMS on a new hardware platform involves a lot of folkloreL > knowledge.  All of this folklore knowledge would need to be packaged up inM > some kind of qualification test kit.  It could be done, but would take somet* > time to collect all of this information. > N > Once that is done, somebody needs to pay the third party to actually run theM > tests.  I suspect DELL would not be interested in paying the fee to qualifyeK > VMS on their platforms.  Dell is a high volume vendor and uninterested int > low volume VMS business. > L > It all comes down to time and money.  There are much high priorities ahead' > of VMS than support of Dell hardware.   I So what you are saying is the same thing that many of the nay-sayers here.H have been saying since Alpha was killed.  VMS is not going to run on anyJ "Industry Standard" (tm) hardware.  It is only going to run (with support)K on a very small subset of selected and very expensive HP hardware. (becauseeI of qualification costs and lack of volume sales)  So, tell us once again  4 exactly what the advantage of Itanium over Alpha is?   bill   -- mJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:11:32 +0100sO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>k: Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32500 Message-ID: <bj4pcl$t5l$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Paul A. Jacobi wrote:t5 > "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 4 > news:3v89lvoesej6nfk9u2o35nda8ugo08rgvm@4ax.com... > F >>On 28 Aug 2003 07:56:01 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) >  > wrote: > A >>Personally, I'd love to see HP institute some kind of 3rd-party>G >>qualification program.  I don't know what that involves, however.  It F >>appears to me that qualification is not trivial, however, and if youH >>include clusters, it becomes exponentially more complex to get all the >>combinations.i >  > F > Testing of VMS on a new hardware platform involves a lot of folkloreL > knowledge.  All of this folklore knowledge would need to be packaged up inM > some kind of qualification test kit.  It could be done, but would take somea* > time to collect all of this information. >   1 Are you saying that you don't have this already !f  F Doesn't that make the OpenVMS/platform qualification process one which1 is highly variable and fraught with uncertainty ?e  H You rely on folklore to qualify current OpenVMS platforms, sounds highly	 unlikely.s  N > Once that is done, somebody needs to pay the third party to actually run theM > tests.  I suspect DELL would not be interested in paying the fee to qualify K > VMS on their platforms.  Dell is a high volume vendor and uninterested inh > low volume VMS business. >   H Why not allow them to self certify. It would not be in Dells interest toI falsify the tests and anyway it would be perfectly possible to construct  3 a test suite that made this difficult to do anyway.o   Regardss Andrew Harrisonh   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:46:31 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>: Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32508 Message-ID: <olvblvogj342fjkr59ibh291eqk9pcst4q@4ax.com>  E On 3 Sep 2003 12:11:06 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:-     >-J >So what you are saying is the same thing that many of the nay-sayers hereI >have been saying since Alpha was killed.  VMS is not going to run on any K >"Industry Standard" (tm) hardware.  It is only going to run (with support)IL >on a very small subset of selected and very expensive HP hardware. (becauseJ >of qualification costs and lack of volume sales)  So, tell us once again 5 >exactly what the advantage of Itanium over Alpha is?  >2  G You don't think, just by virtue of the fact that the Itanium is used bytH many more vendors, that the volume of the chip will be much greater than( Alpha and thereby reduce costs per unit?   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:11:48 +0200 (MET)E9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> : Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250; Message-ID: <01L08HN4GDHAAMSOR1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   L > >So what you are saying is the same thing that many of the nay-sayers hereK > >have been saying since Alpha was killed.  VMS is not going to run on any>M > >"Industry Standard" (tm) hardware.  It is only going to run (with support) N > >on a very small subset of selected and very expensive HP hardware. (becauseL > >of qualification costs and lack of volume sales)  So, tell us once again 7 > >exactly what the advantage of Itanium over Alpha is?> > I > You don't think, just by virtue of the fact that the Itanium is used bysJ > many more vendors, that the volume of the chip will be much greater than* > Alpha and thereby reduce costs per unit?  B Of course, Bill's cynicism ignores this argument.  Whether or not E Itanium becomes high-volume due to many more vendors using it is, of   course, another question.s  A Something similar happened with PCI.  ALPHAs using PCI presumably F benefitted, cost-wise, from the fact that PCI is "industry-standard". F Nevertheless, I never expected DEC to support VMS on an arbitrary PCI 	 box.  :-)s   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 15:14:26 GMTa( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32509 Message-ID: <bj50gi$f1435$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   8 In article <olvblvogj342fjkr59ibh291eqk9pcst4q@4ax.com>,) 	jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:eG > On 3 Sep 2003 12:11:06 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:t >  >  >>K >>So what you are saying is the same thing that many of the nay-sayers hereeJ >>have been saying since Alpha was killed.  VMS is not going to run on anyL >>"Industry Standard" (tm) hardware.  It is only going to run (with support)M >>on a very small subset of selected and very expensive HP hardware. (becausecK >>of qualification costs and lack of volume sales)  So, tell us once again e6 >>exactly what the advantage of Itanium over Alpha is? >> > I > You don't think, just by virtue of the fact that the Itanium is used by-J > many more vendors, that the volume of the chip will be much greater than* > Alpha and thereby reduce costs per unit? >   D I fear you missed the point.  I am sure that DELL who will sell lotsC (relatively) of Itanium systems will be able to get the prices down4D to something close to acceptable.  But people here are concerned forC the most part with boxes that will run VMS.  If that is going to bekC a very small subset of available Itanium systems and available from C only one vendor, the cost will never come down and VMS is once moreaB relegated to special, rare, expensive hardware. How long can it beA expected that IT shops will be willing to continue to pay a stiffcG penalty for the priviledge of running VMS?  Especially as less and less6 of them even know what VMS is.   bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 09:39:57 -0500e- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l: Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32503 Message-ID: <AD7IlaQIEsKl@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <bj4pcl$t5l$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > Paul A. Jacobi wrote:a  G >> Testing of VMS on a new hardware platform involves a lot of folklorerM >> knowledge.  All of this folklore knowledge would need to be packaged up inoN >> some kind of qualification test kit.  It could be done, but would take some+ >> time to collect all of this information.  >> l > 3 > Are you saying that you don't have this already !I > H > Doesn't that make the OpenVMS/platform qualification process one which3 > is highly variable and fraught with uncertainty ?l > J > You rely on folklore to qualify current OpenVMS platforms, sounds highly > unlikely.p  J They rely on a team of people and an array of tests, but to date the folksJ submitting a platform have generally been from the same company (Alphabook being a notable exception).<  O >> Once that is done, somebody needs to pay the third party to actually run the N >> tests.  I suspect DELL would not be interested in paying the fee to qualifyL >> VMS on their platforms.  Dell is a high volume vendor and uninterested in >> low volume VMS business.w >>   > J > Why not allow them to self certify. It would not be in Dells interest toK > falsify the tests and anyway it would be perfectly possible to construct o5 > a test suite that made this difficult to do anyway.u  F I believe that vendors would tend to cut corners particularly in areasF like cluster interactions.  VMS Development says they have no plans toG qualify VMS on tri-architecture clusters, but my guess is they will runtF some internally and if there were a serious flaw encountered in normalE use it would get investigated.  But testing tri-architecture clusterstI is not written into their test plan, and a third party which had a defectnH brought out in that environment (including a defect in VMS only apparent9 with the third party machine) might not find that defect.0  C If VMS Development were to qualify a 2 thousand dollar workstation,cE they test it in the same cluster with a 2 million dollar Alphaserver.1F I am not sure third parties would be willing to spend that much money.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 10:39:53 -0500c- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n: Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32503 Message-ID: <N5JHdRzQ74Uy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   d In article <bj50gi$f1435$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  F > I fear you missed the point.  I am sure that DELL who will sell lotsE > (relatively) of Itanium systems will be able to get the prices downuF > to something close to acceptable.  But people here are concerned for- > the most part with boxes that will run VMS.n  ? Some people here seem to be concerned with boxes that have beenD? _qualified_ to run VMS.  That qualification is at odds with lowc> prices, since the process is not cheap and somebody has to pay for it.w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:13:23 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>I: Subject: RE: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32509 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEFFHOAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message-----r. >From: jlsue [mailto:jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net], >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 7:47 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com; >Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 3250s >  >iF >On 3 Sep 2003 12:11:06 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >- >- >>K >>So what you are saying is the same thing that many of the nay-sayers here@J >>have been saying since Alpha was killed.  VMS is not going to run on anyL >>"Industry Standard" (tm) hardware.  It is only going to run (with support): >>on a very small subset of selected and very expensive HP >hardware. (because J >>of qualification costs and lack of volume sales)  So, tell us once again6 >>exactly what the advantage of Itanium over Alpha is? >> >oH >You don't think, just by virtue of the fact that the Itanium is used byI >many more vendors, that the volume of the chip will be much greater thanh) >Alpha and thereby reduce costs per unit?e  I The only way to increase the volume is for Microsoft to fully support it,sJ and why should they.  Apple certainly won't they have a far superior chip.   >6 >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.N; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).mA >Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003o >a ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 11:56:09 -0500c; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)0: Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32503 Message-ID: <S+Fks68bdKxO@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  c In article <AD7IlaQIEsKl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:o  , > VMS Development says they have no plans toI > qualify VMS on tri-architecture clusters, but my guess is they will runy > some internally   ;    You don't have to guess.  At least one has been demo'ed.i  B    Now let's not open up the discussion about "supported" on this %    again.  There's nothing new there.i   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Sep 2003 11:57:37 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-: Subject: Re: Will OpenVMS I64 run on a Dell PowerEdge 32503 Message-ID: <uv2LVBoNoT9P@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  a In article <olvblvogj342fjkr59ibh291eqk9pcst4q@4ax.com>, jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> writes:$ > I > You don't think, just by virtue of the fact that the Itanium is used bycJ > many more vendors, that the volume of the chip will be much greater than* > Alpha and thereby reduce costs per unit?  A    That was DEC's plan for the Alpha, and they did get some otherrA    vendors to use some.  The question is whether Intel will sell  +    the IA64 better than DEC sold the Alpha.i   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.488 ************************