1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 26 Sep 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 533       Contents:< All systems are go, except the magical disappearing licenses Re: Alpha firmware updates Re: Alpha firmware updates4 Re: Availability of clusterwide logicals during boot4 Re: Availability of clusterwide logicals during boot4 Re: Availability of clusterwide logicals during boot Re: dcl.OpenVMS.org . EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?2 Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?2 Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create?< Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...)7 Re: HP to Linux users: "Go ahead.  I've got your back." ( Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target( Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target( Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target( Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target( Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target  Re: MOP device types 226 and 218 Re: OpenVMS 7.3-2  Re: OpenVMS 7.3-2 $ Re: ppp on OpenVMS for remote accessD Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?' Re: question about U160 Raid Controller < Re: Question: In DCL Can One Check To See If A File Is Open?< Re: Question: In DCL Can One Check To See If A File Is Open?< Re: Question: In DCL Can One Check To See If A File Is Open?3 Re: SMTP to PMDF IMAP vms mail w/attachments hosed? 3 Re: SMTP to PMDF IMAP vms mail w/attachments hosed? 3 Re: SMTP to PMDF IMAP vms mail w/attachments hosed? 6 Re: strangeness with temporary text files used by MAIL7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC 8 Re: USA - Alpha/VAX Hardware Field Engineers needed ASAP< Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]< Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]< Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target] Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: [HELP] MAIL.MAI deleted ...   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:37:21 GMT 3 From: Jeffrey Green <pleasereply@thisnewsgroup.com> E Subject: All systems are go, except the magical disappearing licenses 0 Message-ID: <3F739858.6000508@thisnewsgroup.com>  
 Hello all,  D Well after a lot of help from many of you I have my mini-cluster (3 I workstations and one server) running with independent system disks, MSCP  I   served "server" disk mounted on each client and sylogicals pointing in  H all the right places, UCX up and functioning, and the HP printer almost  configured.   B I have found a "new" problem that I cannot explain though.  After F booting the cluster server and the 3 workstations everything is fine. H If I have to reboot one of the workstations though, it gets crazy.  The G workstation comes back up but says that the license limit was exceeded  E (thus Decnet, Xwindows Motif and UCX fail to start, and I cannot log  I in).    This happens on all of the workstations when I reboot them.  The  I only way to get back to "normal" is to reboot the entire cluster, server   first.  H The only "key" thing I did have to do to make the licensing work in the I beginning was a mod_units on the cluster master.  Until I get the actual  B license (or try loading the client licenses on the master) I have G mod_units the net-app-sup-200 and set it to only include the 4 systems  I in the cluster.  I boosted it from 1050 (requirement for single) to 6000  G units. I tried 4 X 1050 but for some reason the 4th would exhibit this  0 "missing license" problem right from the get-go.   Each system is licensed for:" OpenVMS                   12 units# Openvms additional user   200 units $ Net-App-supp-200          1050 units  A Any ideas as to where my licenses are going?  Is it counting the  ) workstation a second time after a reboot?   I I'm going to load the licenses from the workstations onto to the cluster  D master to see if that helps as a crutch until I can get the correct  licenses to run on the server.  , Thanks in advance for any imparted wisdom =)  
 Jeffrey Green    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:47:05 -0500 % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> # Subject: Re: Alpha firmware updates 9 Message-ID: <HTMcb.56070$eF3.50620@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>   J Colin Butcher <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> wrote in message7 news:9wZbb.3059$Bp7.28034108@news-text.cableinet.net... 2 > A suggestion for the Alpha firmware update team. > L > Please put the entire current and 'old systems archive' CDs on the web forL > download. A zip file or similar would be good. That way we could then burnK > our own CDs and do firmware updates a lot more simply than having to drag G > individual files from the web. Of course, it depends on having a high J > bandwidth link to do this in a sensible manner. There might also be someK > issues around how to make the resulting CD bootable on an Alpha. Maybe it E > could be done as a CD image file suitable for use with CDRECORD, or  perhaps  > NERO?   H You had to make a ISO-9660 Mode1 CD, or something like that for it to beD read by the VMS system.  That requires a PRO version of CD software.  J Note:  Put a DOS CD in your VMS box and try to mount it if you want a good4 way to crash your VMS system!    ****  BUGCHECK ****  K I tried to make copies with EZ-CD creator 4.0  (the free one that came with : the burner) at home, and just succeded in making coasters.  / I was able to make a copy at work using EZ V5.0    >  > -- >  > Hope this helps, Colin. + > colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk J > Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and  > networks.  >  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:28:17 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org# Subject: Re: Alpha firmware updates ) Message-ID: <03092521281745@antinode.org>   % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com>   J > You had to make a ISO-9660 Mode1 CD, or something like that for it to beF > read by the VMS system.  That requires a PRO version of CD software.  E    All you need is an image file of the data on the firmware CD-ROM.  E ISO 9660 may or may not have anything to do with it, depending on the  CD-ROM contents.  M > I tried to make copies with EZ-CD creator 4.0  (the free one that came with < > the burner) at home, and just succeded in making coasters.  B    CDRECORD (now available from HP, I gather, although I use one IH compiled myself) can certainly do the job.  (The biggest headache is theG very long time it takes to do a MOUNT /FOREIGN and COPY from the CD-ROM  drive to the image file.)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode,org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:11:43 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>= Subject: Re: Availability of clusterwide logicals during boot ) Message-ID: <3F732FE0.32E88A5C@istop.com>    Martin Vorlaender wrote:H > OpenVMS will ensure that the clusterwide database has been initialized' > before SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM is executed.   # Thanks. Just what I needed to know.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:22:44 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>= Subject: Re: Availability of clusterwide logicals during boot ) Message-ID: <3F733273.BDD39F1F@istop.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:G >   Can't you simply have the sylogicals.com on all the nodes execute a D >   command file on the cluster common disk (where sysuaf et.al. are? >   stored) to make sure that the logicals are defined prior to  >   systartup_vms.com?  N Since that particular logical points to a disk that is MSCP served by node1, IM would much prefer that node1 define it because it is responsible for it. This K way, if node2 boots first, when node1 eventually boots, the logical becomes ! available to node2 automagically.   L Since the clusterwide logicals are made available before systartup_vms, thenN the non-existence of a logical means that the node responsible for it isn't upH yet and I must then take action to indefinitely delay the startup of any( software that depends on node1 being up.    L The things you learn when one has a power outage... (the only times one gets to see a reboot in action).    ------------------------------   Date: 25 Sep 2003 18:06 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) = Subject: Re: Availability of clusterwide logicals during boot - Message-ID: <25SEP200318064761@gerg.tamu.edu>   y In article <bkugda$662h0$1@ID-56200.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> writes...  }JF Mezei wrote:C }> Am investigating why one piece of software doesn't seem to start = }> during system boot. This is the only one which relies on a 8 }> clusterwide logical name to exist during execution ofG }> systartup_vms.com. (this name is defined by another node which hosts - }> the drive on which the software resides).   }>  C }> Obviously, I have to modify the DCL to handle the case when this H }> logical doesn't exist. But I'd like to undertstand this a bit better. }>  D }> When node2 joins a cluster formed by node1, how long does it takeG }> before the clusterwide logicals created by node1 become available on D }> node2 ? Can I assume that by the time systartup_vms executes, theF }> booting node will have already assimilated the clusterwide logicals }> from other nodes ?  } = }See the "OpenVMS Cluster Systems" manual, especially section : }5.5 (Defining and Accessing Clusterwide Logical Names) at= }http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/4477/4477pro_007.html  }  }<quote>G }OpenVMS will ensure that the clusterwide database has been initialized & }before SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM is executed.	 }</quote>  }  }cu,	 }  Martin  }-- G }  OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer   G For informational purposes, there is additional info on how to find out J if the clusterwide logicals are ready yet in the SYLOGICALS.TEMPLATE file:  A $! NOTE:  It is recommended that use of clusterwide logical names ? $!        (new functionality in OpenVMS V7.2) be deferred until A $!        the SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM procedure.  The initialization of > $!        the clusterwide logical name database by the cluster> $!        server process (CSP) may not be complete at the timeA $!        this SYLOGICALS.COM procedure is executed.  If you must D $!        use clusterwide logical names here, then use the following7 $!        tests as a guideline for how to take actions: < $!              1. The system must be booted into a cluster:: $!                      F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_MEMBER") is TRUE9 $!              2. The system must not be booted MINIMUM: ; $!                      F$GETSYI("STARTUP_P1") is not "MIN" 6 $!              3. The CSP initialization is complete:6 $!                      F$GETSYI("CWLOGICALS") is TRUED $!        If all these conditions are met, clusterwide logical names? $!        can be used - otherwise, any clusterwide logical name D $!        operations may stall or yield unexpected (non-clusterwide) $!        results.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:38:00 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>  Subject: Re: dcl.OpenVMS.org( Message-ID: <3F734418.3060306@rdrop.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:   H > In case you run WASD (http://wasd.vsm.com.au/wasd), let me know and I 0 > send you a bunch of DCL scripts for uploading.   Oooh- I could use those...   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2003 14:09:35 -0700$ From: svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth)7 Subject: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create? = Message-ID: <5a85bce2.0309251309.5f095452@posting.google.com>    Hi:   E In one of the EVA-related sessions in Atlanta (HP World) a few months D back, there was a discussion about the "queue depth" of various OS'sB and that it beneficial to create more vdisks to present to a givenE host to increase the throughput that you would see from the EVA.  The * chatter centered around Windows and Tru64.   What about VMS?   D Let's say I've currently got three units from HSG80s presented to myB VMS system.  Those three DGAnn: devices hold around forty database6 files (that are all accessed by the same application).  A When we move to EVA, should I create one large vdisk and move all @ forty database files onto that new DGAnn: device?  Or is there aC performance benefit to creating four vdisks and putting 10 database C files on each DGAnn: device?  How about going with eight vdisks and E putting five database files on each DGAnn: device? (All of the vdisks E will be in the same disk group regardless if we create 1 big vdisk or  8 small vdisks)   D Is there a difference in performance between having *one* vdisk thatD holds all of the files and slicing things up among multiple vdisks? A Everything is on one HSV110 pair.  Should I think about trying to B balance between the "top" and "bottom" HSV?  Or should I shoot forC four vdisks and have one vdisk on each HSV port (HSV Top Port1, HSV / Top Port2, HSV Bottom Port1, HSV Bottom Port2)?   = What does the OS do when one DGAnn: device gets buried in I/O E requests?  Does it recognize that DGA30: is on the same HSV as DGA20: ( and stop sending I/O requests to DGA30:?  D Any enlightenment and useful advice will be greatly appreciated. :^)   Thanks,  -Scott Vieth   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:31:58 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>; Subject: Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create? ) Message-ID: <3F735EC1.34F1CE06@istop.com>    Scott Vieth wrote:C > When we move to EVA, should I create one large vdisk and move all B > forty database files onto that new DGAnn: device?  Or is there aE > performance benefit to creating four vdisks and putting 10 database  > files on each DGAnn: device?    N From the VMS perspective,  it depends (partly) on the total number of files on
 the drive.  N Do you prefer having one single humongous indexf.sys file, or multiple smallerK ones ? Do you prefer having a larger disk cluster size for one lveryt large I drive or smaller cluster size when you have smaller drives ? (this affect  mostly file creation/deletion)  N Consider also backup. Do you prefer backing up one single very large drive, orJ performing 4 different backups on 4 logically different drives. (I realiseL that in a disk array, the risk of failure is less, but if you must restore aM backup due to a failure, it is easier to restore only 1/4 of your data on the Q affected logical disk than to have to restore 100% of your data on one huge disk.   M I terms of performance though, I don't have enough experience. You would also J have to look at the disk array to see how its performance compares when it5 serves one large disk versus serving 4 smaller disks.   M If your files are very dynamic, you also need to look ito file fragmentation. M Easier to find one large unsused block when all your spare capacity is lumped  into the same large disk.   G Another aspect: if usage on the 4 drives is not symetric, does having 4 L separate drives allow you greater control on each drive's performance (cacheN size etc) ? Or can you achieve the same results with a single drive having the0 total combined cache size of 4 separate drives ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:17:53 -0500 % From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> ; Subject: Re: EVA question: How many vdisks should I create? 9 Message-ID: <isMcb.55873$eF3.36653@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>   / Scott Vieth <svieth@wi.rr.com> wrote in message 7 news:5a85bce2.0309251309.5f095452@posting.google.com...  > Hi:  > G > In one of the EVA-related sessions in Atlanta (HP World) a few months F > back, there was a discussion about the "queue depth" of various OS'sD > and that it beneficial to create more vdisks to present to a givenG > host to increase the throughput that you would see from the EVA.  The , > chatter centered around Windows and Tru64. >  > What about VMS?  > F > Let's say I've currently got three units from HSG80s presented to myD > VMS system.  Those three DGAnn: devices hold around forty database8 > files (that are all accessed by the same application).  I We put on average 3 Oracle production databases on an HSG80. This is on a 	 1GIG SAN.   3 40 files on 3 LUNS -- what are you wimpering about? ' How hard are you accessing the files??? ? What is the performance stats from your SAN switches and HSG's?   F When we switches from HSG to EVA for backup drives, we saw a jump fromH 35GB/hour to 70GB/hour on RMAN backup speed.  We where still reading theK data from an HSG drive, and writting it to the EVA.  I suspect that if both E the source and the Backup drive where on the EVA, we would see better  throughput.    > C > When we move to EVA, should I create one large vdisk and move all B > forty database files onto that new DGAnn: device?  Or is there aE > performance benefit to creating four vdisks and putting 10 database E > files on each DGAnn: device?  How about going with eight vdisks and G > putting five database files on each DGAnn: device? (All of the vdisks G > will be in the same disk group regardless if we create 1 big vdisk or  > 8 small vdisks)   J When you are dealing with HSG's, you are managing SPINDLES, and throughputF to the individual spindle.  When you are dealing with the EVA, you areJ dealing with managing SPACE.  The IO is spread across your disk group thatG you carve the Virtual disks from.  So, it doesn't really mattter if you K logically make it one disk, or 4 disks.  It's more important how many disks  you have in your disk group.  L Why change your setup?  If you have a setup that works for your application,I you can transfer it strait from the HSG's to the EVA LUN for LUN, and not L worry about re-mapping files.  You should even be able to match the LUN ID's if you are really good!  :-)  J Unless you would have larger than a 2TB LUN, you could make the one larger LUN if you really wanted too.    > F > Is there a difference in performance between having *one* vdisk thatE > holds all of the files and slicing things up among multiple vdisks?   I Depends on the Disk group size.   Are your VDISKS in the same group?  Are  they in Different groups?   C > Everything is on one HSV110 pair.  Should I think about trying to D > balance between the "top" and "bottom" HSV?  Or should I shoot forE > four vdisks and have one vdisk on each HSV port (HSV Top Port1, HSV 1 > Top Port2, HSV Bottom Port1, HSV Bottom Port2)?   H You still need to consider things like INDEXF.SYS  Just because you haveJ virtualized the storage, you still need to deal with the OS level settings
 for the LUNS.   K You can SET DEV DGxxx /switch/PATH=xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxn  (xxxx = HSG WWID, n L = your HSG port #) This would balance your LUNS between the controllers, butG it may not be necessary.  What Alphaserver do you have pushing the I/O? ! That may be your real bottleneck.   K Unless you have 4 HBA's/Fabrics in your SAN, your bottleneck is going to be J in your host more than it is in the HSV.  Remember to balance between your! HBA's as well as EVA controllers.   
 Questions:1 How many Servers will you have accessing the EVA? : How much Data/hour are you trying to push to/from the EVA?   > ? > What does the OS do when one DGAnn: device gets buried in I/O G > requests?  Does it recognize that DGA30: is on the same HSV as DGA20: * > and stop sending I/O requests to DGA30:?  L NO.  You can see what SAN storage device the DGA device is by doing a SH DEV /MULTI  I Compare the path strings to the GGA devices below.  If you are smart, you H will set the command console LUNS to be a uniqe ID # so that you can see this relationship.  K Example:  HSG #1 has a ID = 1001   So I see a GGA1001 device that lists the 
 WWID of HSG#1    > F > Any enlightenment and useful advice will be greatly appreciated. :^) > 	 > Thanks,  > -Scott Vieth   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:34:31 GMT ' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> E Subject: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...) + Message-ID: <3F738A49.CD1C72A0@pacbell.net>   ( Reposting to give this its own thread...     > M > You are correct in that the TCPIP packets need to know what route to follow P > to get anywhere. However what sort of logging does the average default gatewayP > perform. I'd doubt it was anywhere near sophisticated enough for this proposed > type of billing. > L > You would need to log not only connections to port 25 but also whether theM > transfer of the message completed successfully. This is not as simple as it 	 > sounds. H > Badly configured mail systems,overloaded mail systems (or those behindQ > certain firewalls which by default employ certain questionable security methods C > with smtp ) can often have timeout issues when dealing with large % > mails or large lists of recipients. N > This can lead to the sending system not receiving an acknowledgment that theN > receiving system has completely received the message and therefore having noO > option but to retry sending the message later. Hence this results in messages N > being delivered multiple times. The problem is with the receiving system butO > unless you are very careful in this billing scheme the sender would be billed   > for all these message retries. >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >   F At this point I'm fairly convinced that the implementation of fees viaG central gateways &/or routers is not workable. So I have come up with a D protocol that implements e-mail in 2 phases: a meta phase and a dataD phase. In phase 1, all the info about the email is sent to the open,B listening port of the receiver. Then the link is dropped, by both.B Phase 2 must be initiated by the receiver, so they are in completeE control of the transmission and final delivery and at that point they  can also charge a fee.  E A first draft is available at http://alphase.com/vms/FBEProtocol.html   E Serious suggestions are more than welcome, but please no nit-picking. 7 This is a early, early draft. A suggestion, if you will      --     Have VMS, Will Travel  Wire paladin, San Francisco    (paladinATalphaseDOTcom)   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2003 16:26:57 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) @ Subject: Re: HP to Linux users: "Go ahead.  I've got your back."= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0309251526.4af9b117@posting.google.com>   } clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote in message news:<5AYJQ625QaWs@eisner.encompasserve.org>...  > there seem to L > be two main positions. The first one, mainly taken by Sun, is that the SCOK > licensing offered an opportunity for Sun to just sort out some technology  > licensing issues  E Something hard to explain with this position is the stock options Sun D was granted, to buy a total of 222,500 shares of SCO (so far) at the' far-below-market rate of US$1.83/share.   C If Sun is merely paying SCO for licenses, why is _SCO_ paying _Sun_ E with the option of taking an equity position in SCO at a huge profit?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:58:40 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> 1 Subject: Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target ' Message-ID: <3F732CD0.2070400@MMaz.com>    Michael D. Ober wrote:  8 >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message$ >news:3F723350.EA6A50F8@istop.com... >    >  >>Ian Burgess wrote: >>     >>9 >>>See globe technology's "The Globe and Mail" article...  >>>  >>> 	 >>>        >>> M >www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030911.gtlinuxsep11/BNStory/Te 
 >chnology/ >    > I >>>Surprising that Linux rates above Microsoft (67% of successful attacks  >>>in August vs 23% for M/S). 	 >>>        >>> L >>Even more suprising that this would be released at the same time as a moreL >>credible report that blames Microsoft software on all the hacking/viruses. >>     >> > L >What report?  Please provide a reference.  All the reports I've been seeingM >over the last couple of years are similar to the British Intelligence report + >referenced in the globetechnology article.  >  >    > ; Go to this site and do some light reading to get caught up:   ! http://www.ccianet.org/index.php3    Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:42:35 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> 1 Subject: Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target ( Message-ID: <3F73452B.4020708@rdrop.com>  K >>>> Surprising that Linux rates above Microsoft (67% of successful attacks  >>>> in August vs 23% for M/S).   C Yeah, but. Percentages are nice, but compare raw numbers (machines  F attacked, machines successfully attacked, # of machines affected by a , single outbreak) and where's all the damage?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:33:28 -0600 6 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd-@-alum-mit-edu-nospam>1 Subject: Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target 0 Message-ID: <cqHcb.64$oD4.39063@news.uswest.net>  6 "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message! news:3F732CD0.2070400@MMaz.com...  > Michael D. Ober wrote: > : > >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message& > >news:3F723350.EA6A50F8@istop.com... > >  > >  > >>Ian Burgess wrote: > >> > >>; > >>>See globe technology's "The Globe and Mail" article...  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>  > L >www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030911.gtlinuxsep11/BNStory/T e  > >chnology/ > >  > > K > >>>Surprising that Linux rates above Microsoft (67% of successful attacks  > >>>in August vs 23% for M/S).  > >>>  > >>> I > >>Even more suprising that this would be released at the same time as a  more= > >>credible report that blames Microsoft software on all the  hacking/viruses. > >> > >> > > G > >What report?  Please provide a reference.  All the reports I've been  seeingH > >over the last couple of years are similar to the British Intelligence report- > >referenced in the globetechnology article.  > >  > >  > > = > Go to this site and do some light reading to get caught up:  > # > http://www.ccianet.org/index.php3  >  > Barry  > J OK, I just read several of the CCIA articles.  Although they are critical,I and correctly so, of Micrsoft and its near monopoly, none of them dispute L the Globe Technology story.  The basic issue of 94-97% market penetration isI what makes MS products such a prized target of virus and worm writers - a G huge attack surface.  The Globe Technology article normalize the attack I surface and reported the percentage of systems based on each OS that were J breached.  This tells me that as "joe user", if I have a linux system, I'mG more likely to be breached than with a MS-Windows system, and the least G likely would be the BSD Unix systems.  (VMS systems appear to be nearly ) immune if they are correctly configured.)   L There are multiple reasons for successful attacks.  One is the complexity ofL the code, and thus the likelyhood of programming errors.  MS fails miserablyK on this one.  I don't know the complexity of Linux, so I have no ability to K judge code complexity.  Another is the ease of applying vendor patches.  MS K again fails, but is getting better.  Linux, unless you are experienced with H rebuilding the kernel, fails miserably.  Yet another is user apathy.  MSI Windows end users tend to be very apathetic about security until it bites J them in the rear.  MS has made the Windows Update site work even over slowK links (28.8Kbs) with restartable downloads.  Corportate MS users tend to be G better, but they still don't put the focus on security that needs to be K there - it simply isn't a profit/loss center.  Linux users are usually more H technically savy and understand the importance of security, thus they doK tend to maintain their systems, but as linux starts appearing in more homes F in the form of Lindows, Red-Hat, etc, using SAMBA for the Windows fileH system integration and WINE for Windows app support, the issue of simpleL patching will become very important and it will take some time for the linuxF development community to develop a simple patching system that doesn't require recompiling the kernal.   G Both the CCIA and the Globe Technology sites are correct.  CCIA for its K critical analysis and position on Microsoft, its monopoly (and tactics used K to develop and maintain it), and Globe Technology for looking at the chance 5 of any individual system being successfully attacked.    Mike.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:24 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>1 Subject: Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target ) Message-ID: <3F734861.D56A1FA5@istop.com>    "Michael D. Ober" wrote:I > huge attack surface.  The Globe Technology article normalize the attack K > surface and reported the percentage of systems based on each OS that were L > breached.  This tells me that as "joe user", if I have a linux system, I'mI > more likely to be breached than with a MS-Windows system, and the least I > likely would be the BSD Unix systems.  (VMS systems appear to be nearly + > immune if they are correctly configured.)   M No. I think that it may be possible that Linux gets more "attempts at writing I a virus" than Microsoft. The thing is that Microsoft gets more "succesful ( attempts at writing a virus" than Linux.  M Consider that there are many people who thinker with Linux source, so it is a A given that there would be more attempts to find a fault in Linux.   N Yes, there are regular patches/CERT notifications of some deficiency in a UnixF system that needs a patch. But those are not "virus" or "trojan horse"N related, they are denial of service/bug related. It isn't something which willK result in self replication and worldwide distribution of the problem, as is ! the case with Microsoft products.   F And a Unix/Linux machine, when vulnerable, doesn't also bring down theJ internet by scanning all possible IP adresses to find another machine thatN could be infected, nor does it scann the sdick for all possible email adresses to spam them with itself.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:56:22 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>1 Subject: Re: Linux is the favourite hacker target ) Message-ID: <3F73566A.B4A08926@istop.com>    Dean Woodward wrote:D > Yeah, but. Percentages are nice, but compare raw numbers (machinesG > attacked, machines successfully attacked, # of machines affected by a . > single outbreak) and where's all the damage?  I But that is not a fair comparison. (Not that I want to defent Microsoft).   L The impact of a virus is directly dependent on the number of platforms which it can infect.N So by definition, no matter what OS is dominant, that OS will have the greater) impact whenever a viri is directed to it.   H What is more important is the number of separate viri which are launched against an OS.  H What is more important is the impact that a single viri can have on each= individual machine, and on the network (internet) as a whole.   M If all Linux is vulnerable is a virus that will display "Hello world" on your K desktop without any ability to zap system files etc, and that this virus is I not self propagating, then its impact is far less than a self propagatingiL virus which changes a Windows configuration to enable separate attacks whichA could destroy a user's disk and emails itself to anyone/everyone.w  K In the case of Microsoft, its problems are coumpounded because the platform E leads itself very easily to self propagating viri which innundate theeK internet, and more inportanly, deposit files in system directories, startupvJ background processes without the user knowing it and implant themselves as- automatically started programs at boot times.v  M Yes, because of Microsoft's dominance, the potential target is huge, but itisvJ also because Windows itself is structured to make self replicating viri so8 easy to make that Microsoft is far worse off than Linux.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:21:00 +0100n) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org>c) Subject: Re: MOP device types 226 and 218t? Message-ID: <eTJcb.4445$%G1.2550@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>m   Galen wrote:  H > Does anyone know what uses MOP device type 226 (decimal)? I see two onG > our LAN, one with a 08-00-2B OUI, the other with 00-00-F8, so they're E > both "DEC-family" addresses, and the only MOP function they supporto# > (besides Request ID) is loopback.i  & DECrepeater 900CP (a 16 port repeater)  D > And (in case anyone cares) I've recently found that the DEGXA GigEG > card has reused the device type 218, which I'd long ago noted as usedcE > by the FDDI port of a PEswitch 900TX (the PEswitch's Ethernet portss > use 219).i  ! Someone must be getting careless!o   Antonio    --   ---------------C- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgT   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:17:43 +0000 (UTC)O) From: "Jeff" <dirkdiggler@totalise.co.uk>  Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-2/ Message-ID: <bkvf0n$5n7$1@titan.btinternet.com>    Thanks for your input.  B "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote in messageF news:rdeininger-2409032039090001@user-uinj4pb.dialup.mindspring.com...9 > In article <bkrko7$7mv$1@sparta.btinternet.com>, "Jeff"p% > <dirkdiggler@totalise.co.uk> wrote:i >PE > >Does anybody have a date for shipping of OpenVMS 7.3-2 for Alpha ?p >e > Nope.M >n >rF > >All I can find on the HP web site is 'Q4', does anybody have a more > >definitive date ? >e > Nope.M   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:53:31 GMTX5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)d Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-2L Message-ID: <rdeininger-2509032002290001@user-105n8gg.dialup.mindspring.com>  6 In article <bkvf0n$5n7$1@titan.btinternet.com>, "Jeff"# <dirkdiggler@totalise.co.uk> wrote:t   >Thanks for your input.h  C Always glad to help.  I try to provide the best information I have.    :-)o   Maybe I was too terse.  H Patience is called for.  I expect V7.3-2 will show up in the fullness of$ time.  And also sometime in Q4 2003.    C >"Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote in message G >news:rdeininger-2409032039090001@user-uinj4pb.dialup.mindspring.com...e: >> In article <bkrko7$7mv$1@sparta.btinternet.com>, "Jeff"& >> <dirkdiggler@totalise.co.uk> wrote: >>F >> >Does anybody have a date for shipping of OpenVMS 7.3-2 for Alpha ? >> >> Nope. >> >>G >> >All I can find on the HP web site is 'Q4', does anybody have a morev >> >definitive date ?d >> >> Nope.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2003 17:02:17 -0700, From: JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)- Subject: Re: ppp on OpenVMS for remote accesst= Message-ID: <4b6ec350.0309251602.688cfcfe@posting.google.com>w  [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F71F464.B084F88A@istop.com>...rM > Your modem configuration should the the same whether for interactive or pppdX > sessions. You need compliant modem control handling, as well as hardware flow control. ...e  ; Thank you all for helping me see the forest from the trees.w  1 Jim Strehlow, Data911.com OpenVMS Systems Manageru   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:18:25 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ? ) Message-ID: <3F733171.AF7F5DA2@istop.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:G >   Double clicking on the file is supposed to use the resource fork tooH >   find and open the proper application.  I don't know the details, butG >   I always assumed that had something to do with how the viruses werer" >   rampant on our Macs years ago.  J Nop. Double clicking on a file does not open its resource. It looks in theL file header for the file type as well as application code (each 4 bytes) andE then looks up the application "directory" to find which executable isd responsible for this file.    L An application would have to specifically load some specific (code) resourceB from a data file and execute it. It would never execute by itself.  I Now, if the user downloaded an "APPL" type file (application), and doublee1 clicked on it, then, of course, it would execute.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:41:38 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?D) Message-ID: <3F7336E0.4E539F00@istop.com>n   John Vottero wrote:5M > There is no need to be concerned about NAT.  This proposal is a replacementrK > for SMTP servers.  They already need special consideration when used with # > NAT, as do all listening servers.   M Yes, there is need to be concerned with NAT.  The sending server doesn't knowfK what its real IP is, and thus is unable in the SMTP discussions to tell theoB receiving SMTP server "call me back at nn.nn.nn.nn on port xxxxx".  H Furthermore, the whole concept of changing SMTP the way you propose willL simply fail. In any upgrade, you must maintain upward compatibility. So yourF fancy SMTP server will require to continue to support the conventional% standard for many many years to come.C   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:28:58 -0400r% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>eM Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?c/ Message-ID: <vn6gfrepk1sf0c@news.supernews.com>   7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messaget# news:3F7336E0.4E539F00@istop.com...a > John Vottero wrote:iC > > There is no need to be concerned about NAT.  This proposal is a  replacement H > > for SMTP servers.  They already need special consideration when used with% > > NAT, as do all listening servers.l >oJ > Yes, there is need to be concerned with NAT.  The sending server doesn't knowI > what its real IP is, and thus is unable in the SMTP discussions to tell  thecD > receiving SMTP server "call me back at nn.nn.nn.nn on port xxxxx". >   C There's no need to be concerned because an SMTP server has the same6J requirements as the new and improved server. If someone has an SMTP serverJ behind a NAT router, they've already jumped through the hoops they need to
 jump through.a  J > Furthermore, the whole concept of changing SMTP the way you propose willI > simply fail. In any upgrade, you must maintain upward compatibility. SoC yourH > fancy SMTP server will require to continue to support the conventional' > standard for many many years to come.   J First, be careful with the "you" and "yours"., give credit where credit is" due. It's not my idea, it's Don's.  K I agree that any new mail server has to be backwards compatible.  But, fromeI day one the new server will be able to mark mail as trusted, untrusted or-I paid.  If enough people adopt the new protocol, you could eventually drop(# untrusted mail into the bit bucket.k   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:50:01 -0400-* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?A) Message-ID: <3F7346E3.A5D2AC23@istop.com>b   John Vottero wrote:2E > There's no need to be concerned because an SMTP server has the samesL > requirements as the new and improved server. If someone has an SMTP serverL > behind a NAT router, they've already jumped through the hoops they need to > jump through.   M With current SMTP, the NAT router only needs to define where calls to port 25>L go. With the "new" system, one would need to switch the "default port" to goI to that machine instead of another one since you wouldn't know which porth# would be used for an incoming call.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:04:29 -0400a% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>hM Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?a/ Message-ID: <vn6m2ts4l7amec@news.supernews.com>   7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message # news:3F7346E3.A5D2AC23@istop.com...  > John Vottero wrote: G > > There's no need to be concerned because an SMTP server has the samecG > > requirements as the new and improved server. If someone has an SMTPt serverK > > behind a NAT router, they've already jumped through the hoops they needs to > > jump through.t > L > With current SMTP, the NAT router only needs to define where calls to port 25K > go. With the "new" system, one would need to switch the "default port" tol goK > to that machine instead of another one since you wouldn't know which port % > would be used for an incoming call.a  I The new server isn't going to open a port and start listening like an FTPgK server.  Once it tells a remote server that it has mail for it, it ends thecE session.  The remote site would eventually establish a new connectionaL (probably via port 25) and it would ask for the message.  Don used port 13986 in his example but, it could be any port including 25.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:45:44 -0400e( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?t, Message-ID: <3F738C38.6050807@tsoft-inc.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:e  x > usenet_vms@lehrerfamily.com (Joshua Lehrer) wrote in message news:<477e0934.0309230702.2874cf3b@posting.google.com>... > ] >>JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F6FDA1B.359A6B91@istop.com>...d >>P >>>Another issue is that of viruses. It would be best to simply educate everyoneQ >>>to simply avoid anything microsoft. But if that won't happen, there isn't much E >>>to be done to prevent viri since microsoft is such an easy target.s >>>y >>C >>Not a solution.  Most OS'es have holes.  The virus writers targetiH >>whatever the mainstream OS is because that is how they get the highestE >>infection rate.  If we all switched over to Apple instead, then thea@ >>virus writers would target MacOS and poke holes all over that. >> >>This isn't MSFT's fault. >> >>-joshO >> > H > yes it is Micro$ofts fault!  Instead of trying to steal mica code theyD > should have bought vms and threw out dos and ran windows on top ofE > VMS ... now there would have been a platform ... VMS has few if any H > holes to poke ... 25 years have proven that and defcon9 reinforced it! >   L If VMS sources were given to some hackers who were instructed to put in the N fancy stuff, not to worry about securuty, and paid only for what was desired, , the result would be the same as MS is today.  Q It's not the OS, it's the concept.  VMS gets bought for lots of reasons, but the  O fancy MS auto-execution of stuff that makes their systems seem so great to the eL casual user isn't one of them.  I'd suggest you compare VMS sales to windoz 7 sales and then determine what the casual user will buy.   H Why should MS spend any resources on security?  Why should MS spend any N resources on quality?  Why should MS spend any resources on anything but what O the majority of purchasers will buy?  My only surprise is that they aren't the  = leading anti-virus vendor.  They missed an opportunity there.    Dave   -- c4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:37:47 -0400r( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?r, Message-ID: <3F73986B.4030805@tsoft-inc.com>   Don Sykes wrote:    H > At this point I'm fairly convinced that the implementation of fees viaI > central gateways &/or routers is not workable. So I have come up with a2F > protocol that implements e-mail in 2 phases: a meta phase and a dataF > phase. In phase 1, all the info about the email is sent to the open,D > listening port of the receiver. Then the link is dropped, by both.D > Phase 2 must be initiated by the receiver, so they are in completeG > control of the transmission and final delivery and at that point they  > can also charge a fee. > G > A first draft is available at http://alphase.com/vms/FBEProtocol.htmlV > G > Serious suggestions are more than welcome, but please no nit-picking.e9 > This is a early, early draft. A suggestion, if you willd  O You have a problem with your idea.  You've started to describe a scenario that tK could control the problem without imposing fees.  That would be preferable.    -- e4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadv Vanderbilt, PA  15486i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:27:56 -0400l( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?d, Message-ID: <3F73961C.8040705@tsoft-inc.com>  H > On 23 Sep 2003 02:19:59 GMT, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >  > M >>I'll say it once more... You can't solve social problems with technologicale >>solutions.    : This is more of a technical problem than a social problem.    Q Human nature allows us to succumb to temptation.  If a bank leaves it's money on oI the sidewalk, and not in the vault, there are those that might decide to eN appropriate such money.  If they were homeless and hungry, I'd expect them to  attempt to survive.o  Q The internet has evolved in a manner similar to the money on the sidewalk.  It's hI rather easy to be a spammer.  These people don't consider it spam.  They  P consider it the greatest advance in marketing the world has ever seen, and they J consider the anti-spammers as terrorists.  It's the system that's flawed. M Remove the ease which causes the temptation and the problem is a long way to l
 being solved.m   Dave   -- t4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadi Vanderbilt, PA  15486)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:19:26 -0400n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ? , Message-ID: <3F73941E.3080900@tsoft-inc.com>   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:   W > In article <3F6FE435.177A5C96@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes:l >  >> >>Mike Bartman wrote:i >>I >>>On 22 Sep 2003 21:41:57 -0500, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i	 >>>wrote:h >>>k >>>ah >>>>In article <bkoakf$42ov5$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>>7 >>>>>In article <ZuednaI5fOd9O_KiXTWJiw@metrocast.net>,06 >>>>>     "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >>>>>oO >>>>>>I'd vote for that $.01 per email fee that was proposed:  I think it wouldrO >>>>>>stop most spammers in their tracks, at least to the degree of making themiR >>>>>>select for people who at least *might* be interested in their product rather >>>>>>than just spam the world.d >>>>>>K >>>>>And how is it proposed to do this?  How do you know how many emails my  >>>>>machine sends out?  >>>>>eA >>>>Receiving ISPs charge the backbone for each message received.lC >>>>Backbones charge each other (and sending ISPs) for each message 
 >>>>received.h >>>>A >>>How do any of these know that a given packet is part of a maile? >>>message?  The port number used?  What about those who run on C >>>non-standard ports, or over other protocols for part of the trip. >>>(web-mail for instance)?e >>>:G >>Yes. Charge by headers directed to port 25. Others simply wouldn't beiF >>part of the solution and could continue to use any port they wished. >> >> > % >>>What if the sender isn't an ISP?  c >>> J >>The sender doesn't have to be an ISP. But the ISP that gave provided youG >>with your IP address would be responsible for assesing those charges.i >> >># >>>I run my own mailserver...my ISPmE >>>isn't involved except in moving packets at the TCP/IP level.  Am It >>>supposed to bill myself?  >>> I >>You mean you don't point to any mail, or default, gateway IP?? How does F >>your mail know where the next hop is? I run my own server too, but IG >>have to declare at least the address of my router and my router has ae+ >>default gateway address, which is my ISP.i >> >> > E >>>What will be your reaction when you find that your home system got B >>>infected by a virus that sent a commercial e-mail to 27 millionI >>>addresses while you were at the beach over the weekend?  Will you justm/ >>>pay the $270,000.00 bill your ISP sends you?s >>>  >>>oJ >>Of course you would have simple safegards, like decaring a maximum numer: >>of outbound emails per day without further confirmation. >> >>B >>>There may be a solution to the spam problem, but that isn't it. >>>c >>>r% >>I wouldn't be so sure. Money talks.e    L I wouldn't want to see this as the solution.  As soon as money is involved, G taxes won't be far behind.  However, money DOES talk, and gets results.e    J > How will you enforce this. To work it has to be applied worldwide to allN > "ISPs" (or at least a majority - since I suppose you would refuse to receive% > mail from those who don't sign up).cK > However until a majority have signed up it pays for an ISP NOT TO charge.aM > They will get more customers if they don't charge and their competitor downa > the road does charge.     O If the enforcement is at the backbone level, then if an ISP doesn't play ball, eL he's not on the internet.  That would mean zero customers, which definitely  doesn't pay.    N > Also until all systems are charging you will be causing chaos since you will? > have destroyed any hope of consistent reliable mail delivery.r    L Yep, there has to be wide agreement on the principal and the implementation.    M > I think Money will talk - it'll say "this is madness - this "cure" is worseo > than the disease".    O I was away for 3 days.  I had over 1000 messages at my ISP.  Don't know if any :M max storage was enforced.  Not that's madness!  The vast majority, over 90%, rP were the junk we've been discussing.  Prior to that, I had over 800 of the same!    L > The only people who could think this is a good idea are non-technical bean > counters.s    O It's NOT a good idea.  It's a potential solution to spammers, who do what they hM do solely because it's a way of putting a message in front of people without  A buying a stamp or placing a phone call, both of which cost money.   Q The bottom line is, any attempted solution at the receiving end just won't work.  K   I don't know what will work, I just know that the spammers and the virus  M writers and such will destroy the internet as we know it now, unless we stop ,) their easy access and ease of doing harm.e  P So, don't tell me what won't work.  Make suggestions on how to fix the problem. P   Maybe it could happen with the current environment.  Maybe the environment is P fatally flawed, and needs to be changed.  While I'll readily admit that I'm not Q familiar enough with the system to provide decent suggestions, I'm pretty sure I u know what the problems are.n  L If there is an ability to abuse any system, there are those who will do so. P Blaming MS isn't an answer.  Blaming casual users isn't an answer.  Prosecuting > the innocent (a time honored human tradition) isn't an answer.  J What I see as the problem is the ability of people to access the internet P without any type of monitoring and/or control of such access.  Relaying of data O without any method of knowing what's being relayed is a problem.  Not saying I tP want to see the data, just the type of data, and the source of the data.  A bit K like caller ID.  If you have this phone option, (which I think should be a nN mandatory part of basic service), you get to see who is attempting to contact M you, and you can refuse the contact.  Mail utilities that would have another SL option, easily allowing the sender of an e-mail to be placed onto a 'do not Q call' list for the reciepient could be a solution.  A bit like the 'do not call' ,O lists being provided to telemarketers in some locations now.  Invoking the 'do eQ not call' capability as close to the source as possible will address the problem D of wasted bandwidth.   Dave   -- g4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadt Vanderbilt, PA  15486u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:57:31 -0400i* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ?e) Message-ID: <3F73AAF9.468E315C@istop.com>    David Froble wrote:oR > The internet has evolved in a manner similar to the money on the sidewalk.  It'sJ > rather easy to be a spammer.  These people don't consider it spam.  TheyQ > consider it the greatest advance in marketing the world has ever seen, and they + > consider the anti-spammers as terrorists.s  H The same was said when someone decided they could start using the postalK service to deliver advertising to your home. It was easy and effective. Thed/ internet just made this more effective/cheaper.a  N X.400 was more robust and more secure, but it is exactly because oif that thatG it didn't catch on. SMTP caught on because of the first letter: SIMPLE.   M SMTP was developped at a time when a "NODE" was a large mini/mainframe with aaM real administrator and proper authorization/security. When a NODE became somecI toy wintel box with no security/authorization, it allowed  unsigned spam.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:56:55 -0400p& From: "Island" <dbturner@islandco.com>0 Subject: Re: question about U160 Raid Controller/ Message-ID: <vn6bd4ghq8h758@news.supernews.com>t   THANKS  Oliver  J The problem I am having though is that 7.3-1 is not recognising the CPQISS RAID set (dya0)t  J From the selection when installing 7.3-1 it gives quite a few options, but no dya0s  I It also seems to take a long time to initialize (not init at the console)u
 the drives Lights stay one foreverpG I loaded V2.94 through the LFU (latest version of f/ware for the KZPDC)u  E I wonder if it is too late or is maybe the wrong version for VMS?!?!?    Anyone care to comment     David-    6 "Oliver" <oliver.steeples@compaq.com> wrote in message7 news:e5029990.0309240711.6d9acc8f@posting.google.com...cF > When you run bios pya0 you should get the menu to create the logical* > disk, the disks are init'd once created. >mH > You will need an init after exitint ORCA (Option ROM Configuration for% > Arrays) for the devices to be seen.o >sG > You also need to install the acuxe kit on the OS to be able to manage  > the disks properly.  >t0 > Make sure you set the graphics type to serial: >tH > When ORCA (Option ROM Configuration for Arrays) is used in conjunctionG > with serial console, pressing the space key might cause ORCA to hang. H > Recovery is possible by turning the system power off and then back on.D > The console device list is not updated after running the ORCA BIOSH > emulator. After invoking ORCA to add or delete a logical drive, a userC > issuing the "show device" command will not see output necessarilyeG > representative of their actual configuration. The console device listjG > that exists prior to invoking ORCA remains after ORCA is run.The INIT0D > command has to be executed at the console prompt to get the device > list updated.tD > Thirty two logical units is the maximum possible number of logicalB > drives that can be configured on a Smart Array 5300A controller.? > When executing a BIOS function after the following message iso > received:t+ > Press F8 to run the options config....... ! > Press ESC to skip .............n >h
 > Regards, >    Olivero >t3 > "Island" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message + news:<vn2tupni55gr43@news.supernews.com>...n< > > Installing a KZPDC on a DS10. 2 x 18GB 10KRPM U160 disks > >eI > > Docs say nothing about initialization time of the controller for hd's  likeL > > the old KZPAC you knew it would take about an hour for 2 x 9GB mirrored.F > > When I say initialization time, I mean the controller delaying theI > > availability of the HDs to OpenVMS to actually be  a bootable device. F > > We are installing VMS 7.3-1 (supported) with the latest f/w loaded (2.94)> > > None of the disks (yes all U160 or U2 - tried both setups) > > = > > The controller says nothing of "preparing the disks" etc.  > > 0 > > Anyone know anything about this controller ? > > D > > My guess is it'll take a few minutes but so far nothing has been
 successful > >-, > > (oh - yes we did the set boot bios pya0) > >e > > DT > >d > > -- p > > David B Turner# > > Island Computers US Corporation  > > 2700 Gregory St., Suite 180d > > Savannah GA 31404s > > Tel: 912 447 6622o > > Fax: 912 201 0402c > > Email: dbturner@hpaq.net > > http://www.hpaq.nete   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:26:13 -0400d* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>E Subject: Re: Question: In DCL Can One Check To See If A File Is Open?-) Message-ID: <3F733344.D92F018B@istop.com>    Charlie Hammond wrote:" > Here is an untested code segment  >     $!  Check for OPENIN error' >     $   if $STATUS .eqs. "%X1001628A"s  N The true test of a VMS engineer... they know the status codes for all possible' RMS operations by heart :-) :-) :-) :-)0   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:15:03 GMTn3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)5E Subject: Re: Question: In DCL Can One Check To See If A File Is Open?S2 Message-ID: <X8Hcb.5691$fQ2.1855@news.cpqcorp.net>  V In article <3F733344.D92F018B@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: >Charlie Hammond wrote:T# >> Here is an untested code segmentS! >>     $!  Check for OPENIN errorc( >>     $   if $STATUS .eqs. "%X1001628A" >uO >The true test of a VMS engineer... they know the status codes for all possiblee( >RMS operations by heart :-) :-) :-) :-)  ! The [expletive deleted], you say!f  I No [expletive deleted] real engineer memorizes [expletive deleted] statusPF codes (or any other codes, for that matter).  We look them up!  <grin>  3 In this case the "lookup" goes something like this:e  &     $ open /read /write XXX <any-file>     $ open yyy <any-file>      %DCL-E-OPEN...     $ sho sym $status          $STATUS == "%X1001628A"      $ close xxxc  I If I had a dollar for every time I've done something like this...  {sigh}   B HOWEVER, Note well that the comment line documents what that valueC in $STATUS represents.  It can be "wonderful" to work with somebodyoE else's old that checks values in $STATUS _without_ any indicatin whatd% the values are supposed to represent.w      --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:11:01 +0100e) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org> E Subject: Re: Question: In DCL Can One Check To See If A File Is Open?u? Message-ID: <TJJcb.4437$%G1.1314@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net>    Charlie Hammond wrote:D > HOWEVER, Note well that the comment line documents what that valueE > in $STATUS represents.  It can be "wonderful" to work with somebodyiG > else's old that checks values in $STATUS _without_ any indicatin whatp' > the values are supposed to represent.   @ A judicious SET MESSAGE and F$MESSAGE would "comment" it just as< well wouldn't it? Or am I just being pedantic in my old age?? (I guess status values are not likely to change from release toe release but ...)   Antonio      --   ---------------e- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orga   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:38:37 -0400d* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>< Subject: Re: SMTP to PMDF IMAP vms mail w/attachments hosed?) Message-ID: <3F73362B.1CC787F2@istop.com>u   Bob Ceculski wrote:e@ > the problem seems to be vms 7.1 mail ... and because pmdf runs. > using 7.3 mail logic, you have a problem ...  N Sorry, that doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Has MAIL gotten any changesG that would affect this since it was rewritten and the callable mail waso
 released ?  L For IMAP, all that is important is the ability to obtain the contents of theL message in an intact way so that the client can parse the RFC header and theJ contents that follow. From the way you were talking, this wasn't happeningK because the client was not seing the proper "tags" in the message to let itd realise it was multipart.d  M I ask again: if you used VMSmail interactively after having restored the maile: directory from another system, how did the messages look ?   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2003 16:02:50 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: SMTP to PMDF IMAP vms mail w/attachments hosed?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0309251502.10455cd3@posting.google.com>   [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F73362B.1CC787F2@istop.com>...s > Bob Ceculski wrote:hB > > the problem seems to be vms 7.1 mail ... and because pmdf runs0 > > using 7.3 mail logic, you have a problem ... > P > Sorry, that doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Has MAIL gotten any changesI > that would affect this since it was rewritten and the callable mail wase > released ? > N > For IMAP, all that is important is the ability to obtain the contents of theN > message in an intact way so that the client can parse the RFC header and theL > contents that follow. From the way you were talking, this wasn't happeningM > because the client was not seing the proper "tags" in the message to let it  > realise it was multipart.e > O > I ask again: if you used VMSmail interactively after having restored the maile< > directory from another system, how did the messages look ?  H they looked ok but one difference was old mail had an smtp% in front offI all from addresses and when brought up under pmdf before migrate was used E you could see smtp%smtp% ... I was also told that vms mail 7.2-7.3 isvJ different from 7.1 and that there may have been some bug fixes ... tcpwareI uses native vms mail where pmdf uses some 7.3 built in engine ... that isn what process told me ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:06:22 -0400-* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>< Subject: Re: SMTP to PMDF IMAP vms mail w/attachments hosed?) Message-ID: <3F7382E8.9322DC56@istop.com>-   Bob Ceculski wrote:iJ > they looked ok but one difference was old mail had an smtp% in front offK > all from addresses and when brought up under pmdf before migrate was usedf > you could see smtp%smtp% ..g  M If you used BACKUP to simply move the .MAI files, you shouldn't have seen anyoK of this change. The mail directory should have looked exactly the same fromeN VMSmail. If it didn't, it means that you did not use backup to move the files.K Could you have use FORWARD to send the emails individually from one node toi	 another ?d  M You may also want to check the PMDF/IMAP configuration to ensure that it useshJ the RFC822 headers before looking at the mail headers. Normally, it shouldA look at the mail headers only of it doesn't find the RFC headers.t   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:23:43 +0000 (UTC)wP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)? Subject: Re: strangeness with temporary text files used by MAILn$ Message-ID: <bkvtdu$f9c$2@online.de>  H In article <bkv159$68e7r$1@ID-141708.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Peter Weaver"0 <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca> writes:   = > OK, no *EDT* logicals, but what about the logical MAIL$EDITu< > and how are you checking to see what the user's editor is?  9 %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name MAIL$EDITp  G I personally use MAIL/OLD instead of MAIL.  But that's not the problem.e  H I've done some experimenting and found both behaviours---all with my ownG accounts, which are always set up the same way with respect to MAIL andrD EDT (hey, I've spent a substantial fraction of my life in EDT calledF from MAIL!).  I'll have to make a table of where the behaviour occurs:= version of VMS, architecture, ownership and protection of all2E directories involved, MAIL vs. MAIL_OLD etc.  Lots of combinations to  check out. M  H Is there any thing OTHER than SET NOSUMMARY which could be causing this?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:24:46 -0400c From: norm.raphael@metso.com@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC? Message-ID: <OFD1FA23BE.107D1CE0-ON85256DAC.0064AF4B@metso.com>c  H Does this mean that no patch notification e-mail will be available after this server shutdown?   + Will any service replace this notification?u  C It should be obvious that this is an extremely useful mechanism fordJ providing awareness and availability of ECO's.  It is beyond comprehension2 that it be abandoned without suitable replacement.   -Norm    >e* > EXISTING PATCH SERVER SHUTDOWN REMINDER: >oJ > OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX patches will no longer be available after October 31,a( > 2003 from the existing patch servers (& http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/+ > or ftp://ftp.support.compaq.com/public/).  >vI > This includes the patch notification e-mail distribution lists, throughn whichd! > you are receiving this message.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:01:18 GMT.4 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC= Message-ID: <2YGcb.150532$mp.76831@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>   ^ In article <OFD1FA23BE.107D1CE0-ON85256DAC.0064AF4B@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes: !nI !Does this mean that no patch notification e-mail will be available after2 !this server shutdown? !r, !Will any service replace this notification? !rD !It should be obvious that this is an extremely useful mechanism forK !providing awareness and availability of ECO's.  It is beyond comprehensiont3 !that it be abandoned without suitable replacement.e !  !-Norm !o !>+ !> EXISTING PATCH SERVER SHUTDOWN REMINDER:p !snip!   Hi Norm,  L I haven't had a chance to research this, but ISTR that ITRC has some kind ofM notification list - I'll look it up when I get home tonight, and report back.2  J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own"cK bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' i0                                          with @"   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:14:28 GMT 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC5 Message-ID: <E0Icb.110023$hd6.1207489@news.chello.at>7  ^ In article <OFD1FA23BE.107D1CE0-ON85256DAC.0064AF4B@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes:* >[EXISTING PATCH SERVER SHUTDOWN REMINDER]I >Does this mean that no patch notification e-mail will be available afters >this server shutdown?   Don't think so.   , >Will any service replace this notification?   Already happened.e  N Register @ http://europe.itrc.hp.com and goto "proactiveNotificationOSPatches"  D >It should be obvious that this is an extremely useful mechanism forK >providing awareness and availability of ECO's.  It is beyond comprehension-3 >that it be abandoned without suitable replacement.:  K It seems, that the old page of this mailling list will eventually take overs the ITRC mails  6 	http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/mail-list.shtml   -- F Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERo% Network and OpenVMS system specialiste E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:42:04 GMTw" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC0 Message-ID: <00A2671D.3178AD0C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <E0Icb.110023$hd6.1207489@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:_ >In article <OFD1FA23BE.107D1CE0-ON85256DAC.0064AF4B@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes:s+ >>[EXISTING PATCH SERVER SHUTDOWN REMINDER]eJ >>Does this mean that no patch notification e-mail will be available after >>this server shutdown?  >p >Don't think so. >e- >>Will any service replace this notification?u >a >Already happened. >-O >Register @ http://europe.itrc.hp.com and goto "proactiveNotificationOSPatches"m >@E >>It should be obvious that this is an extremely useful mechanism forxL >>providing awareness and availability of ECO's.  It is beyond comprehension4 >>that it be abandoned without suitable replacement. >TL >It seems, that the old page of this mailling list will eventually take over >the ITRC mailse >s7 >	http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/mail-list.shtmle >i >--  >Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER& >Network and OpenVMS system specialist >E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atlG >A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realistc  7 I registered and all I get when I search for a patch isc       we're very sorry!h  $ Failed to locate the item specified.   Patch-50004u        % That happens with [Search by Keyword]a&                   [Search by Patch ID]%                   [Browse patch list]f      ' Another extremely *useful* HP web site.-   --L VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:47:08 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)g@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRCL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2509031956060001@user-105n8gg.dialup.mindspring.com>  9 In article <00A2671D.3178AD0C@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- e @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  8 >I registered and all I get when I search for a patch is >t >e >n >we're very sorry! >e% >Failed to locate the item specified.r >  >Patch-50004 >s >a >  >t& >That happens with [Search by Keyword]' >                  [Search by Patch ID]n& >                  [Browse patch list] >e >o > ( >Another extremely *useful* HP web site.  H I don't much care for web sites to find patches, and I really don't like	 this one.d  2 Anonymous ftp still works for current VMS patches:  & ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/  H The directory tree is arranged differently from the old site.  And thereE are no checksum files.  But you can get the patch kits and plain-textr
 readme files.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:49:23 GMTr4 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC/ Message-ID: <6aLcb.578861$YN5.414782@sccrnsc01>   o !In article <E0Icb.110023$hd6.1207489@news.chello.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:t` !>In article <OFD1FA23BE.107D1CE0-ON85256DAC.0064AF4B@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes:, !>>[EXISTING PATCH SERVER SHUTDOWN REMINDER]K !>>Does this mean that no patch notification e-mail will be available aftere !>>this server shutdown? !> !>Don't think so.e !>. !>>Will any service replace this notification? !> !>Already happened.5 !>P !>Register @ http://europe.itrc.hp.com and goto "proactiveNotificationOSPatches" !>F !>>It should be obvious that this is an extremely useful mechanism forM !>>providing awareness and availability of ECO's.  It is beyond comprehensionh5 !>>that it be abandoned without suitable replacement.c !>M !>It seems, that the old page of this mailling list will eventually take overt !>the ITRC mails !>8 !>	http://www.support.compaq.com/patches/mail-list.shtml  I I registered at this web site, but I think that this is the service which M will go away as of 31-OCT.  There is a separate page at ITRC, which I suspect0$ is the "correct" page (wrapped URL):  ? http://us-support3.external.hp.com/wps/bin/doc.pl/screen=pnHomea /sid=f2af52df0583660d40   O I will have to wait until I am back at work tomorrow to sign up at *this* site,m9 since one needs to be "logged in" to request the service.t   !snip!  J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own"eK bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' j0                                          with @"   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:57:53 GMTe6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC5 Message-ID: <5iLcb.114145$hd6.1245326@news.chello.at>r  S In article <00A2671D.3178AD0C@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: 8 >I registered and all I get when I search for a patch is >m >we're very sorry! >m% >Failed to locate the item specified.  >o >Patch-50004 >n& >That happens with [Search by Keyword]' >                  [Search by Patch ID]h& >                  [Browse patch list] >p( >Another extremely *useful* HP web site.  I I cannot disagree (though it works for me, most likely because of cookies + and/or JS), but I never relied on www only.j  ' 	ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/e  O is my new (but not the only) friend (though it has a lot of ECOs still missing)    -- i Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERh% Network and OpenVMS system specialistm E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:20:01 -0700h* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>A Subject: Re: USA - Alpha/VAX Hardware Field Engineers needed ASAP.2 Message-ID: <CDydnWkQ28p_ou6iU-KYhw@mpowercom.net>  C "Tracey Virtue" <recruits@solutions-worldwide.com> wrote in message 7 news:1f95c8ba.0309250711.48c8f7fc@posting.google.com...wB > Can anyone recommend people for multiple Hardware Field EngineerF > positions I'm trying to fill? Top priority are positions in Chicago,> > IL (second Omaha, NE) - then other locations across the USA. >oJ Isn't HP in the middle of another round of large scale layoffs for supportK people as more work is shifted to Indian companies?  Sounds like someone isuJ doing a CYA by setting up their own support staff in case the phone centerB in India can't keep their multi-mega-dollar clusters running 24/7.  G Is this a chicken and egg scenario?  Are customers deserting HP supportVJ because of outsourcing fears, or is HP switching to outsourcing because of. the drop in support revenue as customers flee?  , Hmmm, Chicago, Omaha...a commodity exchange?    Jack Peacocki   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:25:23 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>fE Subject: Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]'' Message-ID: <3F736B53.4000909@MMaz.com>M   JF Mezei wrote:    >Dean Woodward wrote:w >  h >aD >>Yeah, but. Percentages are nice, but compare raw numbers (machinesG >>attacked, machines successfully attacked, # of machines affected by ay. >>single outbreak) and where's all the damage? >>     >> >lJ >But that is not a fair comparison. (Not that I want to defend Microsoft). > M >The impact of a virus is directly dependent on the number of platforms which  >it can infect.2O >So by definition, no matter what OS is dominant, that OS will have the greaterc* >impact whenever a viri is directed to it. > I >What is more important is the number of separate viri which are launched  >against an OS. I >What is more important is the impact that a single viri can have on each:> >individual machine, and on the network (internet) as a whole. >  >  g >D That is bogus BS!   G Since this is a VMS list, consider it from VMS perspective.  All of us dD VMS relics remember what VMS 1.X was like (I started on 1.6).  Now, E presume that some how, someone managed to get an IP stack running on eF that system (which I doubt they could do but for the sake of argument C lets say that they do), and the system stays up on its own without e4 sneezing at itself, and they connect it to the net.   I This earlier version of VMS was so fragile, with so many security flaws, tF it was very easy to crash (I was working in academia at that time and I remember how easy it was).  Say that tomorrow, ten-thousand new exploits tE were released onto the net with the sole intent of attacking systems  ) running VMS 1.X, who would care?  No one!d  I So, the number of exploits vs. its ability to propagate does matter and, eG IMHO, they are inseparable but that Global article is only considering  : one-half of the equation, which is why it means nothing...   Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        -   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:55:53 -0400f* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>E Subject: Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]0) Message-ID: <3F738074.8B62407A@istop.com>:   "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote:H > Since this is a VMS list, consider it from VMS perspective.  All of us@ > VMS relics remember what VMS 1.X was like (I started on 1.6).   J Not acceptable. When Airbus started to make jetplanes in the 1970s, do youK think for a minute that they started from a blank sheet of paper ? No. They K carefully studied how Boeing, Douglass and Lockheed had built their planes,nS what sort of piotyfalls, defects etc those had and set out to build a better plane.h  M When Microsoft set out to build an OS, it had no excuse not taking in all the H experiences of previous OSs. When Microsoft decided to rewrite its emailF system, it had no excuse looking at the experience of ALL-IN-1 who hadM designed a safe way to distribute scripts, yet Microsoft disregarded all thatlK acquired experience and rewrote everything from scratch without any regards 
 for security.   K It isn't a question of young software with bugs, it is a question of poorly M designed software which allows a bug to cause havock outside its own process. C It is a question of designing a web server that requires all mighty M privileges, knowing fully well that this was extremely dangerous. It isn't as K if Microsoft weas the first to design a web server, they were quite late ini the game actually.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:29:19 -0700>+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>aE Subject: Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]t% Message-ID: <3F73B28F.30502@MMaz.com>e   JF Mezei wrote:p   >"Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote:@ >  o >eH >>Since this is a VMS list, consider it from VMS perspective.  All of us@ >>VMS relics remember what VMS 1.X was like (I started on 1.6).  >>     >> >>K >Not acceptable. When Airbus started to make jetplanes in the 1970s, do youoL >think for a minute that they started from a blank sheet of paper ? No. TheyL >carefully studied how Boeing, Douglass and Lockheed had built their planes,T >what sort of piotyfalls, defects etc those had and set out to build a better plane. >tN >When Microsoft set out to build an OS, it had no excuse not taking in all theI >experiences of previous OSs. When Microsoft decided to rewrite its email G >system, it had no excuse looking at the experience of ALL-IN-1 who hadhN >designed a safe way to distribute scripts, yet Microsoft disregarded all thatL >acquired experience and rewrote everything from scratch without any regards >for security. >eL >It isn't a question of young software with bugs, it is a question of poorlyN >designed software which allows a bug to cause havock outside its own process.D >It is a question of designing a web server that requires all mightyN >privileges, knowing fully well that this was extremely dangerous. It isn't asL >if Microsoft weas the first to design a web server, they were quite late in >the game actually.d >  e >tB Either you didn't read me message, or you misread it because your F argument is pretty much supporting what I said, just from a different F angle.  I'm in total agreement with you that Microshalt has no excuse H for the inferior quality of the their products, especially the NT based I OS since they are supposedly built by standing on the shoulders of other > serious computer scientist.   G Consider that Unix predates both Windozes and VMS and will most likely eF out live both.  Additionally, the kernels of the Unix/Linux/BSD based G systems are rarely the weak link, it is the layered software which, by yG the way, is often the same layered software that is ported/migrated to l  many other OS's, including VMS.   I The only difference with VMS is that it is a real OS with security built .I in from the beginning but if you did have a poorly designed layer, say a  G TCP stack or a SMTP server which had full privs and no bounds checking tI and write enabled the executed PSECT or allowed for code to be pushed on pI the stack (all of this has been done by one or more folks on this list), sD it too could be exploited just like IIS, or Sendmail, or BIND, ssh, G etc...  We all know that VMS is not in any real danger of this, simply  H because VMS and the layered products are so mature, but there are still H CERT related advisories still posted every year that do impact even VMS  or its layered products...  I What we were discussing, and what I was attempting to point out, is that dA it is BS to state that any OS is a greater security problem than eH Windoze...  Whacking at Linux by stating that it is a greater risk than > Windozes, based on the fact that there may or may not be more F advisories, is down right silly when hundreds of thousands of Windoze 9 systems world-wide have been plagued with compromises... t  F The Risk vs. The Reality: Perhaps Linux and other Unix's have a risk, H but the reality is the unarguable fact Windoze can't even keep standing H before another month passes with mass infections spreading on the net...   Barry    -- i  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:14:42 -0400o* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web) Message-ID: <3F733092.BF2F1FCD@istop.com>n   Bill Gunshannon wrote:E > This has been gone over to death here.  You can not legally use thes- > Hobbyist license for educational purposes. n  K What if the teacher casually mentions the availability of a VMS systems forcG students to play with OUTSIDE "business hours" and that the educationalvK institution is not responsible and that this is not technically part of theh4 curriculum but students would do well to learn VMS ?  M Then, one could argue that students would access the VMS systems out of theiro own goodwill, as a hobby.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:34:44 -0400a* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web) Message-ID: <3F733542.1CBD0271@istop.com>l   John Smith wrote:tI > It was a nice idea, but flawed for a variety of reasons, the largest of,L > which, IMHO, is that if there's no push to make VMS visible in the big badL > commercial world, ie. no demand creation, then no self-respecting academicK > institution is going to give a damn about teaching kids anything about ane( > o/s that has no commercial 'relevance'  H I beg to differ. VMS is still the leader with clustering. And as a such,J schools would do well to teach about VMS clustering so that their students1 have the "state of the art" skills in clustering.g  I But you are right in that VMS , having no commercial value, would not getfK schools to seek VMS. Digital must *actively* try to convince schools to try L VMS (again), especially since HP is much more likely to push Wintel or HP-UXF solutions when it discusses grants/deals with those very same schools.  L > One has to wonder how guys like Marcello and Gorham can either acquiese toH > the lack of advertising/marketing , or allow themselves to be muzzled.  I In an era of job cuts, management tends to be good quiet dogs and toe thevJ corporate line and not make any noise. The minute they disagree with upperM management, they are out. The problem is that this environment has been goings6 on since 1992 when GQ Palmer started to make his cuts.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Sep 2003 12:25:49 -07001 From: byer@mail.ourservers.net (Robert Alan Byer)M" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web< Message-ID: <c4bfc78e.0309251125.bbbe18c@posting.google.com>  q michael_e_price@talk21.com (Mike Price) wrote in message news:<f2c2207.0309240829.635d1797@posting.google.com>...eC > AFter nearly 15 years workign on VMS I was made redundant abotu 27/ > years ago and I am now teaching IT in school.oG > Part of the A level sylabus is operating systems so I thought I couldwG > introduce some of the next generation of programmers etc. to a propertD > operating system while they are still young. - otherwise they will > only see Windows > H > SO - I suppose I could use Unix but I would rather use VMS. Is there aF > VMS system on the Internet that could connect them onto so that they@ > can see how the best works before being totally indoctrinated. > B > N.B. school budgets are rather small and tight ( I thought I had6 > problems industry!!:-) so it would need to be "free" >   B I have two nice OpenVMS Alpha systems (adding a third soon) that I? give free public access to.  I also have a nice Alpha Tru64 boxa
 available.  E For the VAX end the "Hobbes The VAX" project (which I've been helpings! out with) can get you VAX access.t  > If interested in access, e-mail me at byer@mail.ourservers.net   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:59:51 GMTb# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e" Subject: Re: VMS system on the webI Message-ID: <HrKcb.71719$Lnr1.58282@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>b  9 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messageP3 news:bkv3r6$6bigf$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de...tJ > In article <r1Ccb.118424$DZ.37763@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > >> In article <3F729EFB.9345E28D@omond.net>,& > >> Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> writes: > >>>PF > >>> If you can sort out the licencing issue (with luck, you might be( > >>> able to use the hobbyist licence), > >>H > >> This has been gone over to death here.  You can not legally use theG > >> Hobbyist license for educational purposes.  The conflict should beoI > >> obvious by the fact that repeated requests for Compaq/HP to add textrJ > >> to the Hobbyist License specifically stating this have up to now beenF > >> refused.  Trust me, there are still some of us trying to get someI > >> kind of usable education license in place, but for now at least youryF > >> only choice is to read the current educational license and see if > >> you can work with it. > >r > > D > > Write Sue and ask her about the .edu campaign spearheaded by the AmbassadorsRG > > which was discussed at HP and/or maybe launched earlier this year -t= > > geared towards porting apps to VMS for 'academic' credit.n >gC > Ummmm..  I'm the one who proposed the possibility of some portinggC > projects that would count for academic credit (at least we have aoG > projects course here where that would work)  Compaq (yes, it predatedoA > the merger) provided a machine and one years worth of licenses.tB > And it was greatly appreciated.  Sadly, more is needed.  WithoutC > experience no student is going to commit to a project he can't bei@ > sure of being able to finish.  And that comes back to the sameF > argument again.  We need the ability to set up labs that can supportD > multiple servers and multiple users.  The current EDU program doesD > not do this.  The Hobbyist Program is not legal for this.  And theJ > bigger problem is that we are running out of people who are even willingF > to continue fighting for this (heck, even I plan to retire someday).G > The latest member of the faculty to come here has only a very limitedaH > exposure to VMS as an undergrad at Penn State and has not even used itD > since then.  He has never learned anything about it's internals orE > it's value compared to other OSes.  eventually, there will be noonevH > left in academia willing to devote any time to the furtherance of VMS.9 > I think (hope) most here would see that as a bad thing.    Ooops.  J Yes...far better academic licensing, commercial advertising and associatedK demand would all auger for better VMS exposure on-campus. But based on pasteI performance on all counts by HP/Compaq/Digital over the past dozen years,f what do you expect?   J But look at the bright side....by the time you retire there will be nobodyG in academia who knows anything about it. Any knowledge of VMS unearthedsI after that time will be a possible thesis at the PhD level in the History  faculty.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:36:10 GMTt5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) " Subject: Re: VMS system on the webL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2509031945070001@user-105n8gg.dialup.mindspring.com>  J In article <bkv3r6$6bigf$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu wrote:  B >Ummmm..  I'm the one who proposed the possibility of some portingB >projects that would count for academic credit (at least we have aF >projects course here where that would work)  Compaq (yes, it predated@ >the merger) provided a machine and one years worth of licenses.A >And it was greatly appreciated.  Sadly, more is needed.  WithoutaB >experience no student is going to commit to a project he can't be? >sure of being able to finish.  And that comes back to the sameHE >argument again.  We need the ability to set up labs that can supportoC >multiple servers and multiple users.  The current EDU program doesd >not do this.     J The Edu program does allow for multiple systems, and 25 users per system.   And a bunch of layered products.  H Is that not enough, or is there something about the terms and conditions that keeps you from using it?:   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:36:14 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>v" Subject: Re: VMS system on the webI Message-ID: <2SLcb.72641$Lnr1.49527@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>"   Robert Deininger wrote: ; > In article <bkv3r6$6bigf$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>,y > bill@cs.uofs.edu wrote:O >.D >> Ummmm..  I'm the one who proposed the possibility of some portingD >> projects that would count for academic credit (at least we have aH >> projects course here where that would work)  Compaq (yes, it predatedB >> the merger) provided a machine and one years worth of licenses.C >> And it was greatly appreciated.  Sadly, more is needed.  WithoutyD >> experience no student is going to commit to a project he can't beA >> sure of being able to finish.  And that comes back to the sameFG >> argument again.  We need the ability to set up labs that can supportyE >> multiple servers and multiple users.  The current EDU program doesp >> not do this.- >-C > The Edu program does allow for multiple systems, and 25 users per * > system. And a bunch of layered products. >R? > Is that not enough, or is there something about the terms ands* > conditions that keeps you from using it?    H Seems to me that a typical CS class has more than 25 students....at someK schools the overall class size can be in the hundreds, perhaps divided intoeL different sections of 50+ students. All the kids get the same assignments atD the same time and need to hammer the same machines the same weekend.  J Are you suggesting that each section have one or more machines running VMSK in order to accomodate 25 'named' users or 25 concurrent users per machine?nJ Remember that VMS or features therein aren't the only thing these kids areH studying/learning, so tying up all the overhead (floor space, HVAC, a/c,L admin, etc...) for a fleet of Alphas or Itanics limited to 25 users (however( you count them) doesn't fly in academia.   ------------------------------   Date: 25 Sep 2003 15:59:28 GMT< From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann)( Subject: Re: [HELP] MAIL.MAI deleted ...0 Message-ID: <bkv3d0$hig$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  K In article <3F7309D5.DDB855D3@slb.com>, BAVAY Marc <mbavay@slb.com> writes:o2 >Il s'agit d'un message multivolet au format MIME." J'aime pas ca dans un newsgroup...  : >and I cannot find information on how to create a new one. >tK >I read it was going to be re-created the next time a mail is received, but + >when I try to read this new message, I geto >w >MAIL> ready- >%MAIL-E-NOTEXIST, folder MAIL does not exists >hB >I tried to copy a MAIL.MAI from another user, but it will not see >any new incoming mails. > - >what can I do to get a new mailbox working ?a  E Enter mail, then do a "sho all". It might be that you sat a differente* mail directory than your login directory.    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann0   --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452P  ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot dem  D-79011  Freiburg, Germanyo9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.533 ************************ pmdf runs0 > > using 7.3 mail logic, you have a problem ... > P > Sorry, that doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Has MAIL gotten any changesI > that would affect this since it was rewritten and the call46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.34 at Host 147.162.156.46 accepted.  <<< PORT 147,162,156,46,200,346 >>> 200 Port 200.3