1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 28 Sep 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 538       Contents: <None>
 Re: <None>0 Re: A flood of spams - another virus on the way? Re: AMD64 sales figures # Re: DHCP & Advanced Server question D Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ? SSH for VMS  SSH for VMS , suggestion: TCPIP$SMTP_PERSONAL_NAME logical7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC < Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]< Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target]2 RE: VMS JVM implementation of sub-process deletion Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web 2 Re: VMS Technical Update seminar (the Netherlands) [Audio] Lame 3.93 for VMS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 03 09:59:42 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  Subject: <None> ) Message-ID: <xCCENmk2lp30@elias.decus.ch>   ? So, sick of aall the Swen spams, I thought of creating a NOSPAM ( account and using Netscape 3.03 to post.  D I can read newsgroup messages fine, and can compse replies, but whenL I hit the send button, Netscape comes up with "Netscape Error, Couldn't open
 FCC file".  # Anyone any idea WTF an FCC file is?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:24:47 +0200 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> Subject: Re: <None> / Message-ID: <3F76B6EF.F475C98@sture.homeip.net>    Paul Sture wrote:  > A > So, sick of aall the Swen spams, I thought of creating a NOSPAM * > account and using Netscape 3.03 to post. > F > I can read newsgroup messages fine, and can compse replies, but whenN > I hit the send button, Netscape comes up with "Netscape Error, Couldn't open > FCC file". > % > Anyone any idea WTF an FCC file is?   
 Test reply   --
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 13:39:44 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: A flood of spams - another virus on the way? 9 Message-ID: <bl6oav$8j5vr$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   + In article <3F74D1E3.8BB8F946@pacbell.net>, * 	Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > : > I and others in this NG are trying to do something - see) > http://alphase.com/vms/FBEProtocol.html   C Yet another hair-brained idea with little if any real fore-thought.     E          Depending on the recipients and other criteria, the receiver D          software can demand a fee from the sender's ISP for passing          on the e-mail.   H What ISP is likely to agree to pay some arbitrary "fee" in order to passH mail to you?  Do you really think your that important?  It is simpler toI just notify the sender that their mail is undeliverable and let them sort G it out.  If you rely on email for your business, you will start to feel D the pinch in very short order.  Your potential customers will merelyC find you unreachable, not understand why, think your are not a very 6 reliable company and look elsewhere for their answers.  G         The RECPTID of the mail generated by the sending software shall K         be used, whenever possible, to track the e-mail's final disposition F         and both the receiving and sending domains shall maintain this#         data for at least 180 days.   K Who is going to pay for the storage space??  And what ISP is likely to want K to keep around a whole bunch of information that they could find themselves J being asked to provide through subpoenas at some later pointin time?  (YouK did know that was why libraries do not keep records of what books have been ? read by which patrons once the books are returned, didn't you?)     G          ISP's who agree to pay the costs imposed by the receiver, will C          maintain a $1M bond to insure compliance and post their IP -          addresses and insurer at eosawki.org   H Don't tell me, this was porposed by a large ISP with the primary purposeJ being to drive all their smaller competition out of business.  Most of theH ISP's I consulted for in the early days didn't start with a total budget; of $1M much less have that kind of money to post as a bond.   F         Sender software adds $.21USD to Jane Doe's monthly bill - they#         collect .01 for themselves.   E If I have to pay $.21 apiece for email, I would opt not to use it.  A E phone call is cheaper.  Maybe this porposal has it's origins with the @ USPS which is feeling the bite of email more and more every day.  E         Everyone's happy except the spammers, who's days are numbered   F How is Jane Doe happy?  And, this doens't even take into considerationG things like mailing lists.  Hmmmm.... $.21 an email, last I heard RISKS B had over 10,000 subscribers.  I make that out to $2,100 per issue.7 Somehow, I don't think PGN is going to be happy either.   I Looks like just another "metered service" proposal.  No "metered service" E system for the INTERNET has ever got off the ground.  People, most of H whom don't understand how any of this works anyway, will merely flock toG the ISP's/services that do not charge this fee and the ones who do will F have a very limited clientele.  Which brings us full circle yet again.  J Like I have said all along, you can't solve social problems with technicalF solutions.  This proposal has more bad side effects than possible goodI direct effects.  If you don't want to accept mail from everyone who wants F to send it to you, simply instruct your mail server or local router toF refuse mail (or connections on port 25 in the case of the router) fromE everyone except those few machines you actually trust.  Of course, if G your an ISP or any kind of a serious business, your users are likely to ' be very unhappy, but it is your choice.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 06:06:18 GMT   From: CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net>  Subject: Re: AMD64 sales figures* Message-ID: <3F767A92.7060803@prodigy.net>   rob kas wrote:, >>OK - sorry. Must have missed that one 8^). >  > 9 >  Yes but you always respond with single word   "ECache"  > L >   Big Difference between Early IA64 machines and what should mature Stable > High End Sparcs. >   5 I wish Sun had never bought those bad chips from IBM.    >  >  >  >  >  >>--   >>Greg Cagle >>gregc at gregcagle dot com >> >  >  >      --  3 After being targeted with gigabytes of trash by the 1 "SWEN" worm, I have concluded we must conceal our 5 e-mail address.  Our true address is the mirror image 4 of what you see before the "@" symbol.  It's a shame such steps are necessary.    Charlie    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:47:26 -0400 $ From: "PEN" <paul.nuneznosp@mhp.com>, Subject: Re: DHCP & Advanced Server question, Message-ID: <bl73b2$pki$1@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>   Hi,   5 "John Brandon" <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote in message + news:03092611043273@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com... ? > I have an AlphaServer VMS V7.3-1 with Advanced Server loaded.  >  [snip]E > In the mean time, I configured the Win/x client with IP address and  domain, > > etc., and and successfully logged into the VMS setup domain.K > From the Win/x client I can FIND the computer and see the shares, however  whenJ > I attempt to access one of the assigned shares I get the following error (from  > the Win/x client)  > H > "The local device type and the network recourse type are not the same" >   L That sounds like the silly error which occurs when you don't have a license.J You didn't indicate which version of Advanced Server you had, but the mostH recent versions - v7.3 and v7.3A - require the license pwlmxxxca07.03 inL order for clients to map shares.  If you have the licenses, it may just be a config issue...   K To confirm it's a license problem do  $ ADMIN/ANALYZE/SINCE[=date/time] and L look for messages indicating "No server license for client - access denied".     Paul   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 13:41:43 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)M Subject: Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam Gateway - any experience so far ? 9 Message-ID: <bl6oem$8j5vr$2@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   + In article <3F74C68E.D70964E4@pacbell.net>, * 	Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >  > I > I agree 100%. This protocol is NOT SMTP, it's a new e-mail protocol, so I > you could, and probably would, serve both, until SMTP fell into disuse. H                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^F Never going to happen. (At least not in the lifetime of anyone reading this.)    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:27:07 -0500 ) From: "Sam Rozenfeld" <rozenfeld@dls.net>  Subject: SSH for VMS, Message-ID: <f6GcnQvtl7ah4uuiXTWJkA@dls.net>   Hello,  L I am just wondering if anyone came across this problem or may otherwise knowH a way around it: We are using SSH for OpenVMS EAK  (June 20, 2003). I amB trying to write a pretty simple DCL procedure utilizing public keyL authentication to BSD server to execute a command there. Procedure works butJ it seems to be hanging waiting for input after it performs ssh command and8 never releases control back to DCL to continue past SSH:  	 $ set ver # $ define/user sys$input sys$command - $ ssh2 -t -l testuser mybsdbox.dls.net ls -la  $ show default $ exit     This is the output I get:    ICE:\> @test.com# $ define/user sys$input sys$command ' Authentication successful.rsteer ls -la  total 166 drwx------   3 testuser  testuser   512 Sep 28 01:06 .9 drwxr-xr-x  18 root       wheel       512 Sep 15 14:29 .. > -rw-r--r--   1 testuser  customers    22 Sep 27 19:17 .forward9 drwx------   2 testuser  testuser   512 Sep 27 19:22 .ssh = -rwxr-xr-x   1 testuser  testuser  3381 Sep 28 01:06 mailstat   I >>> At this point I must hit "Return" otherwise script hangs and does not 
 move further.  $ show default   DISK$USER:[ROZENFELD]  $ exit  I I am not sure if I am doing something wrong here but if I do not redefine ; sys$input procedure errors out when trying to bring up ssh:   	 $ set ver $ $! define/user sys$input sys$command3 FATAL: ssh_io_register_fd: fd 3 already registered!     6 %TCPIP-F-SSH_FATAL, non-specific fatal error condition  & Any help would be greatly appreciated.  
 Sincerely,
 Sam Rozenfeld  DLS Internet Services    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:36:50 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org Subject: SSH for VMS) Message-ID: <03092802365074@antinode.org>   ) From: "Sam Rozenfeld" <rozenfeld@dls.net>   D    I encountered some problems, including one like one of these, andA reported them (OPENVMSSECURITY@HP.COM) around the end of July.  I F believe that I was told that the hang when contacting a VMS server wasE fixed in the yet-to-be-released code.  I did not get any more info on A the status of my other two complaints, one of which was a "FATAL: B ssh_io_register_fd: fd 3 already registered! \ %TCPIP-F-SSH_FATAL,H non-specific fatal error condition" complaint when invoking SSH inside aG command procedure.  (The other was a lack of carriage-return characters ! in output from a Solaris server.)   H    You could try contacting OPENVMSSECURITY@HP.COM to see what happens. B Your problems differ in details from mine, so they might have some% educational value for the developers.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  N > I am just wondering if anyone came across this problem or may otherwise knowJ > a way around it: We are using SSH for OpenVMS EAK  (June 20, 2003). I amD > trying to write a pretty simple DCL procedure utilizing public keyN > authentication to BSD server to execute a command there. Procedure works butL > it seems to be hanging waiting for input after it performs ssh command and: > never releases control back to DCL to continue past SSH: >  >  > $ set ver % > $ define/user sys$input sys$command / > $ ssh2 -t -l testuser mybsdbox.dls.net ls -la  > $ show default > $ exit >  >  > This is the output I get:  >  > ICE:\> @test.com% > $ define/user sys$input sys$command ) > Authentication successful.rsteer ls -la 
 > total 168 > drwx------   3 testuser  testuser   512 Sep 28 01:06 .; > drwxr-xr-x  18 root       wheel       512 Sep 15 14:29 .. @ > -rw-r--r--   1 testuser  customers    22 Sep 27 19:17 .forward; > drwx------   2 testuser  testuser   512 Sep 27 19:22 .ssh ? > -rwxr-xr-x   1 testuser  testuser  3381 Sep 28 01:06 mailstat  > K > >>> At this point I must hit "Return" otherwise script hangs and does not  > move further.  > $ show default >   DISK$USER:[ROZENFELD]  > $ exit > K > I am not sure if I am doing something wrong here but if I do not redefine = > sys$input procedure errors out when trying to bring up ssh:  >  > $ set ver & > $! define/user sys$input sys$command5 > FATAL: ssh_io_register_fd: fd 3 already registered!  >  > 8 > %TCPIP-F-SSH_FATAL, non-specific fatal error condition > [...]    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:08:16 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)5 Subject: suggestion: TCPIP$SMTP_PERSONAL_NAME logical $ Message-ID: <bl68e0$qr8$1@online.de>  I One can use the TCPIP$SMTP_FROM logical to specify the From: header of a  C message.  It would be nice to have a similar functionality for the  G personal name.  While it is true that one can change the personal-name  D setting from within VMS MAIL and not the name of the sender, such a C logical would still be useful since it could change the value on a  ? process (or job) basis while leaving the "default" value to be  # determined by the VMS MAIL setting.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:27:43 +0200 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC9 Message-ID: <bl6ui5$8jvsn$1@ID-152801.news.uni-berlin.de>   7 On 2003-09-26 01:57, "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" wrote:   U > In article <00A2671D.3178AD0C@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: 9 >>I registered and all I get when I search for a patch is  >> >>[...]  >>) >>Another extremely *useful* HP web site.  > K > I cannot disagree (though it works for me, most likely because of cookies - > and/or JS), but I never relied on www only.  > ) > 	ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/  > Q > is my new (but not the only) friend (though it has a lot of ECOs still missing)   E I finally managed to register with ITRC (just as a hobbyist, i.e., no > valid support contract) with JavaScript *disabled* and cookies? temporarily *enabled* (session cookies, not permanent cookies).   C I also managed to subscribe to the VMS (VAX and Alpha) patch digest D mailing lists. But what is really annoying: the mailing frequency isF "weekly" which is absolutely *inadequate* for security-related issues.  H Really annoying too: the entire registration process (including transfer2 of passwords) is done in simple HTTP, *not* HTTPS.   Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. @ Please do *not* send "Security Patch Notifications" or "SecurityA Updates"; this system isn't running a Micro$oft operating system. = And don't annoy me <mailto:postmaster@[127.0.0.1]> please ;-)    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 11:41:37 GMT/ From: "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> E Subject: Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target] 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-5vsHnx20rsFe@localhost>   F On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:28:58 UTC, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith  Parris) wrote:  ] > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F7489E1.5487941D@istop.com>... P > > But when they hired Cuttler and al to write NT, (and windows 95), they couldQ > > have decided to start from a clean slate and stop adding security issues with & > > each bell and whistle they wanted. > D > Windows 95 was not Cutler's -- that's what NT had to be compatible > with.   F My memory tells me that issues about NT/Win95 compatability came about@ with NT4. NT 3.51 had the Win 3.1 desktop/GUI with the Graphics F hardware separate from the kernel. NT4 has the Win95 GUI, the graphicsB support in the kernel and, at least in the early years, a similar @ number of protection violations and blue screens to Win 95. The E cross-compatabilily (Win95/NT) without the BSODs was possible but it   would have felt slower...   ; Or are you refering to the lack of consistency in the APIs?    E > You can't have a clean slate and backward compatability at the same  > time.   > I get the impression that there is general 'down' on backward F compatibility at the minute. Is it vogue? It is _not_ a bad thing. It ! is one of VMS's major strengths.     --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:00:30 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>E Subject: Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target] ) Message-ID: <3F7713AD.B2EF3410@istop.com>    Dave Weatherall wrote:? > I get the impression that there is general 'down' on backward G > compatibility at the minute. Is it vogue? It is _not_ a bad thing. It " > is one of VMS's major strengths.    N Intel was able to take its 8086 toy controller and turn that architecture intoI a respectable thing, an architecture that is now 64 bits (thanks to AMD).   M VMS was designed from the start as a multi-user operating system. So it could 0 evolve fairly easily because its base was solid.  N DOS on the other hand was a minimalist piece of software that allowed keyboardH input, display to screen and access to a floppy drive. There was no realJ thought into planning that software for the future. It was just to get all that money from IBM real fast.  N Consider what apple did: they ditched the Apple II (DOS' equivalent) when theyK designed the MAC. They knew that it would be a hindrance.  And the original M MACos survived over 15 years. They had to ditch it because back in 1984, they N hadn't considered it important to include true multitasking and this came back to haunt them.  N When Microsoft came out with Windows, they should have ditched DOS and write aH real OS from scratch with a DOS shell running as an application. At thatN point, the API could have been clean, designed for multi tasking etc. Instead,K Microsoft chose to build windows over DOS, and when it realised its mistake L and comissioned NT, it was now stuck with supporting a DOS API on the new NT5 system so that windows applications could work on NT.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:34:43 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> ; Subject: RE: VMS JVM implementation of sub-process deletion R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB0D86CA@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   >=20 > -----Original Message-----; > From: Ken Randell [mailto:kenneth.randell@verizon.net]=20 # > Sent: September 26, 2003 10:39 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  >=20= > I'm seeing a couple of inconsistencies trying to control=20 : > sub-processes using the java API calls in 'Process'. =20! > Specifically, I'm trying to use ; > Process.destroy() to abort a sub-process that has been=20 4 > created.  I'm using the classic (.vs. FAST) JVM=20? > interactively.  I'm running on VMS 7.3-1, JAVA SDK 1.3.1-4=20  > installed on a DS10. >=20? > Inconsistency #1:  At the time of the destroy call, if the=20 ? > sub-process is executing in DCL (various things -- a $WAIT=20 > > statement, $writes to a log file, etc.), the destroy call=20A > appears to be ignored -- the DCL procedure keeps going -- it=20 ? > will even continue to run other executable images.  If the=20 @ > sub-process is executing a program when the destroy call is=20= > issued (only attempted in USER mode), the sub-process is=20 * > deleted right away as would be expected. >=20A > Inconsistency #2: If, as above, the sub-process is executing=20 ? > in DCL when the destroy call is issued, if I then exit the=20 @ > JAVA program that created the sub-process (say via CNTL-Y),=20B > the sub-process immediately disappears, instead of continuing=20 > as it does above.  >=20B > It would appear that Process.destroy() is not implemented via=20> > $DELPRC, as I would expect to see that termination status=20@ > (%X2BD4) in the accounting records.  If it were implemented=20> > via $FORCEX, I would have expected to see the 'force exit=20> > pending' bit in the process control status set, but it is=20A > not.  If it was implemented by some sort of user-mode AST, I=20 ; > would expect that as soon as the DCL runs a program in=20 @ > user-mode, the AST would be picked up, but SDA doesn't show=20? > any AST's active/pending/blocked for the sub-process after=20 # > the destroy() function is called.  >=20? > All of this can be worked-around -- but I was wondering if=20 > > I'm just missing something or is this a feature.  I can't=20> > find anything in the release notes/API documentation/etc.=20 > that mentions these things.  >=20' > Thanx in advance for any information.  >=20 >=20   Ken,  - Likely not applicable, but as a general fyi -   3 1. Java V1.4.1-2 is available for OpenVMS Alpha.=20   
 Reference:% http://h18012.www1.hp.com/java/alpha/   F 2. There is a relatively new pthreads eco (pthread-V0200) that fixes a few issues with Java.=20  * Reference: (one long url will likely wrap)H http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/public/Readmes/vms/dec-axpvms-vms7 31_pthread-v0200--4.README     Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:31:10 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) " Subject: Re: VMS system on the webL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2809030740140001@user-uinj468.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <2SLcb.72641$Lnr1.49527@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, $ "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   >Robert Deininger wrote:< >> In article <bkv3r6$6bigf$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>, >> bill@cs.uofs.edu wrote: >>E >>> Ummmm..  I'm the one who proposed the possibility of some porting E >>> projects that would count for academic credit (at least we have a I >>> projects course here where that would work)  Compaq (yes, it predated C >>> the merger) provided a machine and one years worth of licenses. D >>> And it was greatly appreciated.  Sadly, more is needed.  WithoutE >>> experience no student is going to commit to a project he can't be B >>> sure of being able to finish.  And that comes back to the sameH >>> argument again.  We need the ability to set up labs that can supportF >>> multiple servers and multiple users.  The current EDU program does >>> not do this. >>D >> The Edu program does allow for multiple systems, and 25 users per+ >> system. And a bunch of layered products.  >>@ >> Is that not enough, or is there something about the terms and+ >> conditions that keeps you from using it?  >  > I >Seems to me that a typical CS class has more than 25 students....at some L >schools the overall class size can be in the hundreds, perhaps divided intoM >different sections of 50+ students. All the kids get the same assignments at E >the same time and need to hammer the same machines the same weekend.  > K >Are you suggesting that each section have one or more machines running VMS L >in order to accomodate 25 'named' users or 25 concurrent users per machine?K >Remember that VMS or features therein aren't the only thing these kids are I >studying/learning, so tying up all the overhead (floor space, HVAC, a/c, M >admin, etc...) for a fleet of Alphas or Itanics limited to 25 users (however ) >you count them) doesn't fly in academia.   J I can't find anything in the Edu program about "named" users.  I guess the6 license terms allow 25 simultaneous users per system.   I If the courses are taught using Windows, how many students simultaneously  use each system?   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 13:52:38 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web9 Message-ID: <bl6p36$8j5vr$3@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   L In article <rdeininger-2509031945070001@user-105n8gg.dialup.mindspring.com>,8 	rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) writes:L > In article <bkv3r6$6bigf$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu > wrote: > C >>Ummmm..  I'm the one who proposed the possibility of some porting C >>projects that would count for academic credit (at least we have a G >>projects course here where that would work)  Compaq (yes, it predated A >>the merger) provided a machine and one years worth of licenses. B >>And it was greatly appreciated.  Sadly, more is needed.  WithoutC >>experience no student is going to commit to a project he can't be @ >>sure of being able to finish.  And that comes back to the sameF >>argument again.  We need the ability to set up labs that can supportD >>multiple servers and multiple users.  The current EDU program does >>not do this.   > L > The Edu program does allow for multiple systems, and 25 users per system. " > And a bunch of layered products.  E I am not sure which EDYU program you are talking about, but the last E official one I saw required every user to have their opwn license and E have that licens loaded when they used the system.  Classroom machine D required the administration and control of the appropriate professorH (yeah, like that's ever going to happen, shows a total lack of knowledgeH and understanding of the academic world)  The use of machines in labs is) not addressed in a meaningful way at all.    > J > Is that not enough, or is there something about the terms and conditions > that keeps you from using it?   A See above!  When it first came out, numerous people from academic B environments commented on this.  To the best of my knowledge, noneA of this has changed.  I must say again, I find it totally amazing @ that HP now (in publicly stated messages) accepts the use of theB Hobbyist Program for at least the early development of potentiallyB commercial products and yet can not put a simple sentence into the@ License itself stating that it is acceptable for educational useF where that is purely educational and not related to the administration of the educational institution.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 14:00:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web9 Message-ID: <bl6phr$8j5vr$4@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   0 In article <slrnbn9f1i.8u.thierry@venus.family>,5 	Thierry Dussuet <thierry@squeeeez.no-ip.com> writes:  > B > True... how about putting 1 or 2 machines at school and tell theI > students: "hey, if you want to get on the machine but there are already I > 25 users working on it, and you don't want to wait, you can set up simh 8 > at home and install VMS with the hobbyist license."?    A One, the school has a responsibility to provide all the necessary C resources for all school work. You can not base course requirements C on unusual equipment requirements for the student.  No professor is D going to agree to a system with a built in excuse for the student toB not turn in assignments on time (or even at all!)  It is easier to merely continue to ignore VMS.  G >                                                       Maybe with some @ > kind of hotline if installation/administration problems occur.  D Who is going to cough up the money for this "hotline" and the peopleC to man it?  Where are you going to find the people qualified to man E it? (Remember, a major part of the problem we are trying to tackle is E the complete lack of a VMS presence in education.)  And this fails to D address the extreme difficulty of trying to fix (or even diagnose) aF problem at this level when you are talking on the phone to someone whoJ is totally clueless and you don't even know (accurately) what the complete hardware platform is.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 14:33:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web9 Message-ID: <bl6rft$8omut$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   L In article <rdeininger-2809030740140001@user-uinj468.dialup.mindspring.com>,8 	rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) writes:K > In article <2SLcb.72641$Lnr1.49527@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, & > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >  >>J >>Seems to me that a typical CS class has more than 25 students....at someM >>schools the overall class size can be in the hundreds, perhaps divided into N >>different sections of 50+ students. All the kids get the same assignments atF >>the same time and need to hammer the same machines the same weekend. >>L >>Are you suggesting that each section have one or more machines running VMSM >>in order to accomodate 25 'named' users or 25 concurrent users per machine? L >>Remember that VMS or features therein aren't the only thing these kids areJ >>studying/learning, so tying up all the overhead (floor space, HVAC, a/c,N >>admin, etc...) for a fleet of Alphas or Itanics limited to 25 users (however* >>you count them) doesn't fly in academia. > L > I can't find anything in the Edu program about "named" users.  I guess the8 > license terms allow 25 simultaneous users per system.   J I agree, I didn't see this, but that has no effect on the usability of theG license.  Let's look at a few of the sticking points one more time.....   I             provided, in either case, that such computer or computers are 9             under your control in a classroom environment   C The only one that the computer can be "under the control of" in the A "classroom environment" is the professor.  That is not covered by A his/her contract and they would never agree to it.  Add into that @ the fact that they are not particularly interested and it is we,E outside parties, that are trying to convince him/her that they should 4 do this.  You don't do that with an onerous license.  F This license also only addresses classroom use which would always makeH up the minimal part of the operation.  The big need would be use in labsG where the students actually do their assignments.  And, even if it were G specifically addressed, having one server for every 25 students is just H not going to happen I currently have over 750 CS accounts on my servers.F Any one of them is a potential user of any system.  I make that out to9 be about 30 servers, yeah, that's really going to happen.    > K > If the courses are taught using Windows, how many students simultaneously  > use each system?  7 One.  Windows systems aren't designed to be multi-user. H Two.  Are you proposing that we have a VAX or Alpha for every individual       student?J Three. If you look at servers, every PC in use is simultaneously using theH        Win2K servers.  What's your point?  Our license with MS allows anE        unlimited number of users and the total is only limited by the H        power of the machine.  But then, our MS license also allows us to>        set up as many servers as I need at no additional cost.  H The answer is simple.  The license as it exists today is not acceptable.H The Professors are not fighting to get VMS back in their classrooms.  IfJ it is going to happen it need to be made as easy and painless as possible.F It has to be usable and plainly written so that the lawyers can't findE anything even slightly ambiguous.  I have made my suggestions as havenE others from larger and more prestigous schools.  All we can do now isu- wait to see if anybody is actually listening.    bill   -- MJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 14:40:33 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web9 Message-ID: <bl6rt1$8omut$2@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>e  ) In article <3F733092.BF2F1FCD@istop.com>,d- 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:- > Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >> This has been gone over to death here.  You can not legally use the. >> Hobbyist license for educational purposes.  > M > What if the teacher casually mentions the availability of a VMS systems foroI > students to play with OUTSIDE "business hours" and that the educationalaM > institution is not responsible and that this is not technically part of thed6 > curriculum but students would do well to learn VMS ?  G What possible reason would a faculty member have to do that?  Remember,-K most faculty have not had any experience with VMS is over a decade as well.<D They don't need VMS to teach their classes.  We, VMS's few remainingD loyal advocates, want to reverse this.  "OUTSIDE business hours" theF students already find plenty to keep them busy and that's not countingK the amount of time outside the actual classroom that their courses require.p > O > Then, one could argue that students would access the VMS systems out of their, > own goodwill, as a hobby.   G And what exactly is their motivation?  Believe it or not, computers are F only a hobby as well as a vocation to about 2-3% of the students.  TheC vast majority are here to learn the skils needed for a job and have I other things to do with their free time.  (My maintaining of a datacenterbF in my basement for fun is just as funny to the faculty as it is to the
 students.)   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:06:23 -0400f* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web) Message-ID: <3F77150E.943731CE@istop.com>o   Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > One, the school has a responsibility to provide all the necessaryiE > resources for all school work. You can not base course requirementsi5 > on unusual equipment requirements for the student.    L This does not prevent a teacher to have "clustering" in his course contents,M and this does not prevent the teacher from discussing VMS clustering featureseK in class. And this does not prevent the teacher from casually mentioning tosC students that should they want to test VMS out, they can try it outt
 xxx.yyy.zzz .a  M It doesn't require that the students absolutely access the system to pass the M course. Call it an extra-curricular activity that would help students furtherg' understand some of the course contents.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:17:55 -0400e* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web) Message-ID: <3F7717C1.2C3FE519@istop.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:I > What possible reason would a faculty member have to do that?  Remember, M > most faculty have not had any experience with VMS is over a decade as well.   K Agreed on that. The push must come from Digital. If VMS Ambassadors were toeL offer guest lectures at various universities to discuss real life clusteringK and disaster tolerance issues, I suspect that few universities would refuseoL this. And in those courses, since VMS is (still) the leader in the area, VMS. would be used as the standard for clustering.   L Guest lectures don't require a VMS machine be installed at that institution.K But such lectures can give faculty a taste of what they could do with theirIL official curriculum if they had VMS machines on campus that could be used toN teach students about disaster tolerance, clustering etc. Such courses would beM of great value to students when they seek their first job. So the institutionpG would start to be far less negative towards VMS and stop seing it as ant antiquated system.  G And because the Ambassador will have developped a relationship with thelF faculty by providing those guest lectures, he will be in a much betterG position to then arrange to have VMS machines sold to that institution, M bypassing all the HP redtape/resistance/problems with VMS related sales. ThisyM is why it is important that the grass roots work be done by "Digital" insteadtM of HP since we all know that HP is not interested in pushing VMS. HP has onlyc$ promised to continue to support VMS.   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 17:58:38 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web9 Message-ID: <bl77gd$8d64n$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>s  ) In article <3F77150E.943731CE@istop.com>,s- 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:n > Bill Gunshannon wrote:D >> One, the school has a responsibility to provide all the necessaryF >> resources for all school work. You can not base course requirements6 >> on unusual equipment requirements for the student.  > N > This does not prevent a teacher to have "clustering" in his course contents,  C You are assuming that the teacher even knows what VMS is, much less B that he/she has the requisite knowledge to add any real content on the subject.  O > and this does not prevent the teacher from discussing VMS clustering features  > in class.   
 See above.  M >           And this does not prevent the teacher from casually mentioning toeE > students that should they want to test VMS out, they can try it outD > xxx.yyy.zzz .   $ Where is the incentive to do this?     > O > It doesn't require that the students absolutely access the system to pass theyO > course. Call it an extra-curricular activity that would help students furtherr) > understand some of the course contents.b  F The students already have more than enough extra-curricular activitiesB to occupy their time.  Considering that VMS has nothing to do with. current course content, why would they bother?  E Until VMS is re-incorporated into the curriculum neither the teachersc6 nor the students have any incentive to bother with it.   bill     -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:56:34 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>e; Subject: Re: VMS Technical Update seminar (the Netherlands) 8 Message-ID: <gpEdb.1114$ab5.42609@news20.bellglobal.com>  3 "H Vlems" <hvlems.nieuw@zonnet.nl> wrote in messageW3 news:bl3tjh$7o071$1@ID-143435.news.uni-berlin.de...n   [snip]  N > happened but handled it very well. It does prove that VMS is still very muchL > alive, at least in this country. It also proved without a doubt that HP isN > backing VMS and that the OS does have a future. I've got to admit that sinceN > the dark days of Bob Palmer, let alone Compaq, I did not have much hope thatN > VMS would ever live to be 30 years old but this symposium absolutely removedK > that doubt. VMS engineering is improving parts of the OS that hadn't beent > touched in the last decade.q   [snip]  I I came away with the exact same feeling after attending the VMS Technicali! Update seminar in Ottawa, Canada.s  I p.s. Did they talk about the good stuff happening at the Bank of Austria?i  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,r Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ 8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2003 16:27:14 +0100K From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40)e" Subject: [Audio] Lame 3.93 for VMS! Message-ID: <rEMl2UQSAYkr@sinead>E   Hello,  O I've posted a more recent version of Lame audio compressor at the DECW archive:o  2 http://decwarch.free.fr/decwindows/lame-3_93_1.zip  > Sources only (I cannot distribute binaries for legal reasons).  L You need to compile the libraries libmp3lame and mpglib and after to compileM and link the front-end. You can build for VAX (not tested with this version),)H AXP and AXP with EV6 optimizations. Tested on DS10 under VMS 7.2-1 wirh  DEC C V6.2-008  N The quality is better than old 3.70 version. You have manyn parameters to playN with (compression, filters, CBR, VBR, noise shaping, psycho acoustic settings % etc ...). It's an educational tool...-   Enjoy !!   Patrick  --O ===============================================================================SN pmoreau@ath.cena.fr  (CENA)      ______      ___   _          (Patrick MOREAU)4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================y   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.538 ************************