1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 29 Sep 2003	Volume 2003 : Issue 539       Contents:0 Re: A flood of spams - another virus on the way?0 Re: A flood of spams - another virus on the way?  Re: DS10 vs. DS40 and HP support@ Re: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...)@ Re: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...) Re: Quorum DIsk Question RSX.EXE under OpenVMS 7.3? Re: RSX.EXE under OpenVMS 7.3?7 Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC < Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target] Re: VMS system on the web  Re: VMS system on the web 2 Re: VMS Technical Update seminar (the Netherlands)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:23:04 GMT ' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> 9 Subject: Re: A flood of spams - another virus on the way? + Message-ID: <3F7743C5.5B63DE63@pacbell.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <3F74D1E3.8BB8F946@pacbell.net>, 3 >         Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  > > < > > I and others in this NG are trying to do something - see+ > > http://alphase.com/vms/FBEProtocol.html  > E > Yet another hair-brained idea with little if any real fore-thought.  > G >          Depending on the recipients and other criteria, the receiver F >          software can demand a fee from the sender's ISP for passing >          on the e-mail.  > J > What ISP is likely to agree to pay some arbitrary "fee" in order to passJ > mail to you?  Do you really think your that important?  It is simpler toK > just notify the sender that their mail is undeliverable and let them sort I > it out.  If you rely on email for your business, you will start to feel F > the pinch in very short order.  Your potential customers will merelyE > find you unreachable, not understand why, think your are not a very 8 > reliable company and look elsewhere for their answers.  F You obviously don't understand how this works and it's clear from yourF tone, you just want to. And I gave up trying to argue with "Comic Book Guy" types, soo...   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 23:39:24 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)9 Subject: Re: A flood of spams - another virus on the way? 9 Message-ID: <bl7rfc$8rvip$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   + In article <3F7743C5.5B63DE63@pacbell.net>, * 	Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >  >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>  . >> In article <3F74D1E3.8BB8F946@pacbell.net>,4 >>         Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >> >= >> > I and others in this NG are trying to do something - see , >> > http://alphase.com/vms/FBEProtocol.html >>  F >> Yet another hair-brained idea with little if any real fore-thought. >>  H >>          Depending on the recipients and other criteria, the receiverG >>          software can demand a fee from the sender's ISP for passing  >>          on the e-mail. >>  K >> What ISP is likely to agree to pay some arbitrary "fee" in order to pass K >> mail to you?  Do you really think your that important?  It is simpler to L >> just notify the sender that their mail is undeliverable and let them sortJ >> it out.  If you rely on email for your business, you will start to feelG >> the pinch in very short order.  Your potential customers will merely F >> find you unreachable, not understand why, think your are not a very9 >> reliable company and look elsewhere for their answers.  > H > You obviously don't understand how this works and it's clear from your > tone, you just want to.   H So clarify it.  What I saw was a plan that punishes the victim by makingG ordinary users pay for a service that has always been free in the past. K Systems like that stifle legitimate use but allow comercial use to flourish L as all they have to do is make more money then they have to spend.  What didK I have wrong about the parts I cut&pasted in the last message?  Are you now L saying your not proposing that Jane Doe pay $0.21 for every email she sends?J Or that you think it would be as easy for a 100 customer ISP in Winder, GA7 to post a $1M bond as it would be for Earthlink or AOL?   H >                         And I gave up trying to argue with "Comic Book > Guy" types, soo...  H Not having read a "Comic Book" in about 4 decades I'm afraid this one is< lost on me, but I'll assume it was supposed to be an insult.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:18:57 -0400 0 From: "Homer Simpson" <hsimpson@burnsenergy.com>) Subject: Re: DS10 vs. DS40 and HP support 6 Message-ID: <TtGdb.973$md5.768@bignews6.bellsouth.net>  H I agree, getting a good refurbished DAT drive was *very* challenging.  ID came to the conclusion that they usually just can't be refurbed.  WeL sometimes had to run a cleaning tape through the replacement unit 6 times inE order for it to start working.  If it took more than 6 times, we just ! re-ordered and red-tagged it DOA.   H DLT is a much better way to go.  I don't remember ever getting a DOA DLTL drive.  They have a much longer duty cycle too.  I steer everybody away fromH DAT.  They are not ready for prime time.  They will cause you more grief* than the higher price of a DLT ever would.  5 "Rich Jordan" <duodec@speakeasy.net> wrote in message , news:3JCdnXY9GtXAleuiXTWc-g@speakeasy.net...F > If you are referring to my post (bashing) I would like to state thatC > once I actually got a person (not in India, apparently) they were G > helpful.  The additional step of having to speak to an 'engineer' who J > asks generally pc-level questions about my VMS system problems (DAT tapeF > drive failed in this case), which adds several hours of delay into aC > response is another issue.  I still have my excellent local field 4 > service folks, so the last stage is fine except... > I > who the heck does HP get to refurb its DAT drives?  Back in '99 we went G > through several TLZ06 drives in a row before field dropped in an '07, J > which worked for two years.  When it failed, we went through four DOA orG > quick-fail TLZ07's before they gave up and gave us a TLZ09.  That one I > failed a couple weeks ago; had two DOA and one quick fail TLZ09 so they D > dropped in a TLZ10 (which is not behaving well...).  Maybe they've- > outsourced refurbishing to India as well...  > E > The problem really is the significant decline in response and 'user I > friendliness' when getting support when compared to the DEC days.  Long H > hold times, long transfer times getting to the 'engineer', long delaysI > for field service because there are not enough of them, poor quality of ' > replacement parts in the channel.....  >  > Rich >  >  > Grealy, Patrick wrote: >  > B > > Considering all the HP bashing going on, I would like to stateD > that I have been very pleased with the software phone support fromC > HP/Compaq that we have received during the past year. There seems D > to be at least a few old DEC gurus buried away there. And the helpC > we received from Darryl Fuller in Colorado Springs in configuring D > the specs for our new system was greatly appreciated since we wereB > trying to beat a budget deadline. This was especially remarkableD > considering that it was a relatively lightweight academic discountC > deal for HP. The sad news, however, is that it took us two months B > of being passed from one rep to another before we found one thatC > was both interested and knowledgeable. Thus, the deadline crunch.  > 
 > - Pat G. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:04:36 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> I Subject: Re: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...) / Message-ID: <vneq85k9t5cm83@news.supernews.com>   I "Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens> wrote in message * news:bl2ajc$nf0$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de...@ > In article <vn8pgikktp1qde@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:L > >"Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens> wrote in message- > >news:bl0roc$47b$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de... : > >> In article <3F738A49.CD1C72A0@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes" > ><anonymous@pacbell.net> writes:L > >> >At this point I'm fairly convinced that the implementation of fees via4 > >> >central gateways &/or routers is not workable. > >>J > >> I don't agree here. From a senders or better a mail gateway manager's > >pointK > >> of view it is very simple to tell whether a mail went trough or not. A 	 > >modern < > >> SMTP server software should be able to log what it did. > >> > > F > >Yes, my SMTP server can log what it did.  Are you suggesting that I shouldL > >send myself a bill?  Or do you know of a way that I can send the spammers a 7 > >bill based upon what my SMTP server was able to log?  > I > In case your ISP is going to charge you for the number of mail messages  thatJ > originate from you, you may want to charge the people at your site or to+ > identify the one that exceeded the limit.   L How is my ISP going to count the e-mails that I send?  They don't go throughK the ISP's SMTP server.  The ISP only sees raw packets.  Good luck trying to * turn packets into a count of e-mails sent.   > F > >How is a router supposed to know that a connection was accepted?  A routerH > >could see a packet that is asking to open a connection to port 25 but never . > >see the packet that accepts the connection. > J > If there are packets to port 25 that have the sync bit set you may count them. J > Ok, there are attacks in the form that they set the bit without actually havingJ > established a connection. But then it is still the originator who has to pay. >   = How are you going to prevent spoofing the sending IP address?   J > >> Again, I suggest that only large network carriers are required to pay the  > >fee.  > > @ > >Large network carriers don't send e-mail, they route packets. > L > Of course, but with my approach they'll have to look at the packets. It is not I > much that I require, only packets to port 25 from outside their network  have to 7 > be considered and only the first few in a connection.  >   > How do they know which ones are the first few in a connection?  K > >The best part of a two phase e-mail protocol is that you can't spoof the I > >from domain.  If phase 1 tells me that I have mail from joe@hp.com, my  phase G > >two is going to connect to hp.com to retrieve the mail.  If the mail  didn'tJ > >actually originate from HP, then their e-mail servers will tell me that the  > >message doesn't exist.  > I > Yes, but for example at the moment more than 80% of our mail-traffic is  SWEN. H > So I have to establish a huge amount of connections to Microsoft which willI > basically double the load of our WAN connection just to know that it is  all E > junk :-(  I am quite sure that the guys who have the virus on their  desktop G > would do everything to remove it in order to keep their bill within a D > reasonable amount if they had to pay for the messages it produced. >   J With a two phase e-mail exchange, you might be able to recognize SWEN fromH the information provided in the first phase (size, attachments etc.) andD then simply refuse to do phase 2 thus avoiding the wasted bandwidth.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2003 21:13:00 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) I Subject: Re: Fee Based Email (From Re: Process's PreciseMail AntiSpam...) 3 Message-ID: <NH6KfDEzAv2h@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <vneq85k9t5cm83@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: K > "Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens> wrote in message , > news:bl2ajc$nf0$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de...  J >> In case your ISP is going to charge you for the number of mail messages > thatK >> originate from you, you may want to charge the people at your site or to , >> identify the one that exceeded the limit. > N > How is my ISP going to count the e-mails that I send?  They don't go throughM > the ISP's SMTP server.  The ISP only sees raw packets.  Good luck trying to , > turn packets into a count of e-mails sent.  B If you are saying you send packets that do not confirm to the SMTPB protocols, the charging would not begin until someone inserts them into the system as SMTP.  C If they do conform to the SMTP protocol, they are quite susceptible  to counting.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2003 15:11:56 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) ! Subject: Re: Quorum DIsk Question = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0309281411.5b19d619@posting.google.com>   g Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> wrote in message news:<3f74a6fb$0$58699$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...  > Keith Parris wrote: K > > A quorum disk can indeed be a controller-based mirrorset (RAID1 array).  > / > Indeed, it can. But what do you gain by this?   ( Protection against a hard-drive failure.   > In my opinion, if you want  K > to use a quorum disk at all, it should be a very small disk which is not  H > used for anything else. It could be the smallest possible partition a  > HSxxx controller can offer.   A No reason why you can't use two (mirrored) small disks, or a very < small partition on a mirrorset on a HSxxx controller [pair].   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:02:43 GMT " From: "JamesG" <jglando@yahoo.net># Subject: RSX.EXE under OpenVMS 7.3? / Message-ID: <nMJdb.455718$Oz4.260388@rwcrnsc54>    Hi all,   K     Need to run some old college prog's written on a PDP-11 under RSX-11M+. F OpenVMS 7.3 (off Hobbyist CD) doesn't seem to have it. Any pointers to6 where/how I can get this work would be great.. Thanks,   - Jim L.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:14:10 -0400 % From: Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> ' Subject: Re: RSX.EXE under OpenVMS 7.3? < Message-ID: <howard-10CBAD.22141028092003@enews.newsguy.com>  / In article <nMJdb.455718$Oz4.260388@rwcrnsc54>, $  "JamesG" <jglando@yahoo.net> wrote:  M >     Need to run some old college prog's written on a PDP-11 under RSX-11M+. H > OpenVMS 7.3 (off Hobbyist CD) doesn't seem to have it. Any pointers to8 > where/how I can get this work would be great.. Thanks,  E I expect you'll need hardware which can do compatability mode, too.   9 That's any VAX-11 and a few of the more recent ones IIRC.    --  D You are what you eat, therefore, I'm a vegetable!  Cows and chickens and Pop Tarts are too.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:54:13 +0200 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>@ Subject: Re: Update on OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX Patches in HP ITRC0 Message-ID: <3F77ACE4.12B03F57@sture.homeip.net>   Michael Unger wrote: > 9 > On 2003-09-26 01:57, "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" wrote:  > W > > In article <00A2671D.3178AD0C@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: ; > >>I registered and all I get when I search for a patch is  > >>	 > >>[...]  > >>+ > >>Another extremely *useful* HP web site.  > > M > > I cannot disagree (though it works for me, most likely because of cookies / > > and/or JS), but I never relied on www only.  > > 0 > >       ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/ > > S > > is my new (but not the only) friend (though it has a lot of ECOs still missing)  > G > I finally managed to register with ITRC (just as a hobbyist, i.e., no @ > valid support contract) with JavaScript *disabled* and cookiesA > temporarily *enabled* (session cookies, not permanent cookies).  > E > I also managed to subscribe to the VMS (VAX and Alpha) patch digest F > mailing lists. But what is really annoying: the mailing frequency isH > "weekly" which is absolutely *inadequate* for security-related issues. >   * And can I please ask you how long it took?  D For the record, it took me about 20 minutes to get past registrationB and actually log on. Half an hour later I still could not find the patch tree.   " "Weekly" isn't good for me either.  H Did the system prompt you for a (very time consuming) survey as well? MyH attempt did, but I could not answer until I had tried it out for a whileF (another 40 minutes of wasted time). Most responses were in the "Don't6 know", "Very disatisfied" or just plain "disatisfied".  J > Really annoying too: the entire registration process (including transfer4 > of passwords) is done in simple HTTP, *not* HTTPS. > D And it gave me a meaningless user name, which means another piece of paper to file somewhere.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Sep 2003 14:19:48 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) E Subject: Re: VMS Cracked! [was: Linux is the favourite hacker target] = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0309281319.2c7c753c@posting.google.com>   l "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-5vsHnx20rsFe@localhost>...H > On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:28:58 UTC, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith  > Parris) wrote:  _ > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<3F7489E1.5487941D@istop.com>... F > > > But when they hired Cuttler and al to write NT, (and windows 95) > > F > > Windows 95 was not Cutler's -- that's what NT had to be compatible	 > > with.  > H > My memory tells me that issues about NT/Win95 compatability came about > with NT4.   D JF indicated Cutler's team also wrote Windows 95.  My point was that; Cutler did not work on Windows 95 -- his team worked on NT.   F And my second point was that NT had to be compatible with the existing0 applications portfolio from Windows 3.1/95/etc.:  G > > You can't have a clean slate and backward compatability at the same 	 > > time.  > @ > I get the impression that there is general 'down' on backward H > compatibility at the minute. Is it vogue? It is _not_ a bad thing. It " > is one of VMS's major strengths.  @ Backward compability in general is very good, and is demanded by< users.  The problem on the Windows platform is that backwardE compatability requires giving applications the same low-level, direct E (and thus unprotected) access to hardware that early Windows versions 1 provided, which is a very bad thing for security.    ------------------------------   Date: 28 Sep 2003 18:10:39 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web9 Message-ID: <bl786v$8t22l$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   ) In article <3F7717C1.2C3FE519@istop.com>, - 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:J >> What possible reason would a faculty member have to do that?  Remember,N >> most faculty have not had any experience with VMS is over a decade as well. > M > Agreed on that. The push must come from Digital. If VMS Ambassadors were to N > offer guest lectures at various universities to discuss real life clusteringM > and disaster tolerance issues, I suspect that few universities would refuse  > this.   D Guest lecture to who?  It is already hard enough to find the time toC cover all the necessary information in a given semester.  Add a few E snow days and there aren't really any "free" days to bring in a guest B lecturer to speak in the classroom.  Make it optional and you willE at best find yourself preaching to the choir and at worst, addressing  an empty room.  M >      And in those courses, since VMS is (still) the leader in the area, VMS 0 > would be used as the standard for clustering.   D You know that, and I know that, but the academic world doesn't.  HowG do you propose to convince them?  Management briefings are not going to D cut it and the engineers are a bit too busy to visit every school in- the country, much less the rest of the world.    > N > Guest lectures don't require a VMS machine be installed at that institution.M > But such lectures can give faculty a taste of what they could do with their N > official curriculum if they had VMS machines on campus that could be used toP > teach students about disaster tolerance, clustering etc. Such courses would beO > of great value to students when they seek their first job. So the institution I > would start to be far less negative towards VMS and stop seing it as an  > antiquated system.  H OK, you want to lecture the faculty.  How do you propose making them go?C It would have to be outside of their classroom time and if you were B going to try and get all of them some would have to make a special9 trip in on their own time.  And, what is their incentive?    > I > And because the Ambassador will have developped a relationship with the H > faculty by providing those guest lectures, he will be in a much betterI > position to then arrange to have VMS machines sold to that institution,   D Sold?  I don;t know how to break this to you, but there is no budgetD for VMS capable machines in our CS Department and there isn't likelyD to ever be again.  The best they can hope for is a periodic donationD of someone's old gear or somethingout of my collection (as long as IF am still there.)  You have to convince them of the value enough to getE them to fight for funding and then wait heaven knows how long for the G administration to agree that they should give the money.  Budgets don't I change from yeaar to year and when they do, it's usually not an increase.   O > bypassing all the HP redtape/resistance/problems with VMS related sales. This O > is why it is important that the grass roots work be done by "Digital" instead O > of HP since we all know that HP is not interested in pushing VMS. HP has only & > promised to continue to support VMS.  E The first step is till a workable EDU License Program and a few souls F still working in schools willing to implement it on their own time andF hope they can demonstrate at least enough value to interest faculty inB considering it's inclussion in course work. A little at first, andE growing with time.  But any way you look at it, it ain't gonna happen E overnight.  But it won;t happen at all if it doesn't start somewhere.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:16:44 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: VMS system on the web) Message-ID: <3F774FB2.7B445B71@istop.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:H > The students already have more than enough extra-curricular activitiesD > to occupy their time.  Considering that VMS has nothing to do with0 > current course content, why would they bother?  M If you put porn on the VMS system, the students will come :-) :-) ;-) ;-) :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:14:09 -0400 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>; Subject: Re: VMS Technical Update seminar (the Netherlands) ) Message-ID: <3F774F17.DB8C4CE5@istop.com>    Neil Rieck wrote: # > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ : > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html  K In your star trek page, the "home" at bottom of page points to an index.htm 7 page which doesn't exist (it is index.html which does).    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2003.539 ************************