1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 20 Aug 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 461       Contents:- A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS + Anybody got a version of the VAXELN toolkit & Re: anyone using these disks with VMS? Re: charon vax emulator???? Re: Does SHE know about VMS??  not according to this article :( D Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users Re: Ford and Oracle 3 Re: Getting FORKed Was: If OVMS is killed by HP.... 3 Re: Getting FORKed Was: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: HP Away  Re: HP Away  Re: HP Away  Re: HP Away  Re: HP Away  HP Invent wisely? ) HP's Problem? It Ain't the SAP Install... 3 IA64-version of SETI for VMS ?  Does Shannon Know ?  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  RE: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... - ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's 1 RE: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's 1 Re: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's 1 RE: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's  Missing Display ' OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...  OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling ! Re: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling ! Re: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling ! Re: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling  Re: questions about TZ88N-VA Re: questions about TZ88N-VA Re: questions about TZ88N-VA Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Total Eclipse...was Re: HP Away F Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... VAX Instruction Timings   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 10:11:12 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0408200911.611975f7@posting.google.com>   : this wouldn't happen to have been you Andrew, would it? :)  C "An early example of the effectiveness of OpenVMS is DT came in the A mid-nineties in Paris when Credit Lyonnais survived a fire at its E headquarters. Its multi-site OpenVMS Cluster safely mirrored its data E at a second site, while the UNIX folks reportedly had to run into the ? burning building to pull the most-recent backup tape cartridges , containing their data from the tape drives."  F http://www.enterpriseitplanet.com/storage/features/article.php/3396941   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 07:48:00 -0700! From: nyce3000@hotmail.com (Dave) 4 Subject: Anybody got a version of the VAXELN toolkit= Message-ID: <f3598ae1.0408200648.60ed34e5@posting.google.com>   F I am currently testing a real-time version of a VAX emulator and wouldA very much like to get hold of a version of the VAXELN toolkit. Is & there anybody out there with a copy???   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 07:24:31 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)/ Subject: Re: anyone using these disks with VMS? = Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0408200624.43ad838a@posting.google.com>   | helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote in message news:<cg33d9$af3$2@online.de>...I > In article <10i9uno9cs5j60b@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers USA" ) > <dbturner@islandco.com.nospam> writes:   >  > > Seagates yes > > Quantum - no way >  > The models I mentioned?  > G > Talking only original DEC disks for the moment, I have some rebadged  J > Seagates and some rebadged Quantums, though more of the former than the C > latter.  The only disk I've ever had fail was a rebadged Seagate  A > Barracuda (2 GB).  Small-number statistics, of course.  Is the  J > traditional wisdom Seagate better than Quantum better than Connor borne ' > out by the experience of others here?   C Not the models you listed.  Older Quantums (1 - 4GB, especially the E DEC-designed DSP models, are all still running, though some are quite C noisy.  I've had a couple older Seagate rebadges fail (ST15150N/W), E and one ST19171WC/RZ1DB unit.  Newer disks: mostly Seagate, all still  running.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 07:42:00 -0700! From: nyce3000@hotmail.com (Dave) # Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? = Message-ID: <f3598ae1.0408200642.77d4ddd4@posting.google.com>   k tjonard@usa.net (Thomas A. Jonard) wrote in message news:<3ad0fd0.0408190524.40170b0@posting.google.com>... x > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<wbSN$CN20pfj@eisner.encompasserve.org>...h > > In article <4123b682$0$12336$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <w3.boerhout@planet.nl> writes: > > > G > > > It is a production quality software that I've recommended to and  N > > > implemented at several of my customers sites. It replaces a real VAX to  > > > the last decimal.  > > >  > > G > >    Unless the Windows kernel has something better to do for several F > >    milliseconds.  I have not yet seen a version of Charon-VAX that. > >    I would use in a real-time application. > F > Actually in real life you might have a different problem as does oneG > of our current clients -- CharonVAX is too fast for the application.  G > If your application was written assuming some things about the timing C > of events and is tuned to the performance of a micro-VAX the much F > higher performance of CharonVAX can require retuning the applicationH > to run on it.  The good news is that your VAX is much faster.  The badF > news is that your qbus and qbus periperals are unchanged.  Combining@ > new and old technology in this way has to be well thought out. > @ > It is also important to treat the CharonVAX server as such andG > configure it so that the M$ doesn't decide to do something on its own % > or in response to an outside event.  >  > Tom  > * > Thomas A. Jonard,  jonard@XLNsystems.com > Senior Consultant, XLNsystems . > XLNsystems -- VMS specialists, CharonVAX VAR   Hi Tom  F I was interested to read about the problem encountered by your client.A I was wondering whether his problems would be completly solved by E slowing down the emulation process to match the original VAX hardware E or if there is also interfacing problems concerning the Qbus devices? ? A migration of the CHARON_VAX to a RTOS might also improve it's  real-time performance.   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:24:44 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>H Subject: Re: Does SHE know about VMS??  not according to this article :(@ Message-ID: <MQnVc.179460$wH4.11896969@twister.southeast.rr.com>  K Which session David?  Was it an Itanium based session?  They're waiting for $ the Itanium 8.1 release in December.  L That was mentioned in the OVMS-SIG meeting, I saw you come in late, not sure, if you caught it but someone did mention it.   Ken    --   Kenneth R. Farmer <><  http://www.OpenVMS.org          ? "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4122C897.9759683D@comcast.net...  > Hank Vander Waal wrote:  > >  > > L http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,95312,00. > > html?nas=AM-95312  > E > I was at an EVA session today where the leader mentioned the entire 1 > "stable" of o.s.-es, except for (guess which?).  > 3 > I was the only one in the room who spell "V-M-S".  >  > *SIGH* >  > D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:47:50 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 8 Message-ID: <q0bbi0dab5jt1imu895kk7g8hage1807m7@4ax.com>  O On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:08:19 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   = >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/18/hpworld_users_react/  > L >"a whopping 50 percent of [HP-UX] customers have no plans to move to ItanicM >at all.  This leaves half of HP's high-end [HP-UX] customer base looking for K >a new home either on Linux systems, which HP does sell, or - more likely - ( >on IBM and Sun Microsystems' Unix kit."  O Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX customers then had no P plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home they were happy withO VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate. The same is true for  many PA-RISC customers today.    -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:53:26 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> M Subject: RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIMEOMDKAA.tom@kednos.com>    < -----Original Message-----* < From: Nigel Barker [mailto:nigel@hp.com]( < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 12:48 AM < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com I < Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64  < users  <  < 2 < On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:08:19 -0400, "Bill Todd" ! < <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:  < ? < >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/18/hpworld_users_react/  < > @ < >"a whopping 50 percent of [HP-UX] customers have no plans to  < move to ItanicD < >at all.  This leaves half of HP's high-end [HP-UX] customer base 
 < looking for @ < >a new home either on Linux systems, which HP does sell, or -  < more likely - * < >on IBM and Sun Microsystems' Unix kit." < < < Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX  < customers then had no C < plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home they   < were happy with A < VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate. The   < same is true for < many PA-RISC customers today.   I You could conclude from that, that management is no wiser today than they H were 10 years ago.  They seem to be repeating the same mistake.  Can youJ imagine IBM going to its customers and saying, "we have come out with thisA great new architecture, and you will need to move all your code."  <  < -- < Nigel Barker! < Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur  <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004  <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:00:04 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 8 Message-ID: <8p0ci057b829ll65ju6hsq4slio2gqetq5@4ax.com>  H On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:53:26 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  J >You could conclude from that, that management is no wiser today than theyI >were 10 years ago.  They seem to be repeating the same mistake.  Can you K >imagine IBM going to its customers and saying, "we have come out with this B >great new architecture, and you will need to move all your code."  O Over the years that is exactly what IBM have done. With different architectures N targeted at different markets there was always the need for what were referredK to as 'software transitions'. The old joke in an IBM shop was that you were G always either planning for a software transition, undergoing a software 4 transition or recovering from a software transition.   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:08:49 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> M Subject: RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECICEOODKAA.tom@kednos.com>    < -----Original Message-----* < From: Nigel Barker [mailto:nigel@hp.com]' < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 7:00 AM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com I < Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64  < users  <  < J < On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:53:26 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote: < L < >You could conclude from that, that management is no wiser today than theyK < >were 10 years ago.  They seem to be repeating the same mistake.  Can you C < >imagine IBM going to its customers and saying, "we have come out  < with this D < >great new architecture, and you will need to move all your code." < C < Over the years that is exactly what IBM have done. With different  < architectures B < targeted at different markets there was always the need for what < were referred ? < to as 'software transitions'. The old joke in an IBM shop was  < that you were I < always either planning for a software transition, undergoing a software 6 < transition or recovering from a software transition. <   H Not true at all.  You can run code compiled 30 years ago on a mainframe. TrueL they have different architectures for different markets, but the transitionsI you are referring are nothing more than revision updates or new products,  not to6 imply that these transitions were necessarily trivial.   < -- < Nigel Barker! < Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur  <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004  <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 09:19:24 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 3 Message-ID: <1AJpbouIbeCp@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <q0bbi0dab5jt1imu895kk7g8hage1807m7@4ax.com>, Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:  Q > Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX customers then had no R > plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home they were happy withQ > VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate. The same is true for  > many PA-RISC customers today.   F    Once upon a time HP-UX customers were happily running on 68K.  ThenB    HP not only introduced HP-UX on HPARC, they dropped support forF    68K.  I'll note with distict interest whether they live up to their)    promises re: support of VAX and Alpha.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:55:46 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users ' Message-ID: <412610F2.1040007@MMaz.com>    Bob Koehler wrote:  ] >In article <q0bbi0dab5jt1imu895kk7g8hage1807m7@4ax.com>, Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:  >    > Q >>Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX customers then had no R >>plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home they were happy withQ >>VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate. The same is true for  >>many PA-RISC customers today.  >>     >> > G >   Once upon a time HP-UX customers were happily running on 68K.  Then C >   HP not only introduced HP-UX on HPARC, they dropped support for G >   68K.  I'll note with distict interest whether they live up to their * >   promises re: support of VAX and Alpha. >    > I I don't know anything about the HP-UX 68K history, but I'd be willing to  H wager that when HPARC came out, it supported HP-UX faster than on a 68K F system - just like VMS was faster on Alpha than VAX, when the Alpha's E started releasing; That hasn't been the case with Itanic, it is only  A gaining ground because of the Alphacide, time, and Moore's-Law...      Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:23:06 GMT & From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 2 Message-ID: <KzpVc.8478$Wj5.8011@news.cpqcorp.net>  B >>   Once upon a time HP-UX customers were happily running on 68K.E >>   Then HP not only introduced HP-UX on HPARC, they dropped support F >>   for 68K.  I'll note with distict interest whether they live up to1 >>   their promises re: support of VAX and Alpha.  >>  ? > I don't know anything about the HP-UX 68K history, but I'd be F > willing to wager that when HPARC came out, it supported HP-UX faster > than on a 68K system    ; Indeed, before the PA-RISC workstations, there were HP 9000 E workstations based on 68K's and there was a transition.  I had one or B two S300's on my desk, I think the last I had was a 345.  When theE 9000/720 (first PA-RISC workstation, unless you count a 9000/835 with F a graphics card) was released with HP-UX 8.01 ca 1991, there continuedB to be some additional 68K based systems released (the S400s) thereD were a couple of S400 to PA-RISC upgrade kits, and HP-UX support forC 68K continued until/through an HP-UX 9.10 release.  From what I can A gather 9.10 shipped some time in either 1993 or 1994.  One item I F found in an internal search looked like a letter to 68K customers thatA said something about 68K-based platforms being available for sale D through 1997 (not sure if that was HW, SW or both and which HW), andC 9.10 having support, including Y2K patches, until October 2002. The @ letter was undated, but titled "Letter to HP 9000 Series 300/400B customers about HP-UX 9.10 Y2K compliance and patches that will be% produced to provide that compliance."   B Performance comparisons between PA-RISC and 68K workstations wouldC have been based on the venerable 'SPECmark' metric (aka SPEC89).  I B don't think SPEC has any of that online.  There may have been some? overlap with SPECcpu92.  SPEC does not have any of those online D either, but at http://www.spec.org/cpu92/ there is a link to a place	 that may.   
 rick jones --  = denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, rebirth... C                                      where do you want to be today? F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 07:38:05 -07002 From: williamwebb@openvms-rocks.com (William Webb) Subject: Re: Ford and Oracle= Message-ID: <bf98c417.0408200638.1daf5e3f@posting.google.com>   Z "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message news:<41253567.6010402@MMaz.com>... > Rob H wrote: >  > >I found this article today.P > >My question is: what platform were they deploying Oracle Applications on and L > >what platform is the "tried and tested" application on to which they are O > >reverting, and how is that built? Are we talking VMS for tried and tested ,   > >or something else...  > >  > > 3 > >Ford kills 'Everest' procurement software system  > > L > >It pulled the plug on a system built around Oracle's 11i E-Business Suite > >  > >  > >   > >News Story by Marc L. Songini > > E > >(http://www.computerworld.com/printthis/2004/0,4814,95335,00.html)  > >  > > M > >AUGUST 18, 2004 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Despite four years in production and an  N > >investment of millions of dollars, Ford Motor Co. is pulling the plug on a P > >major procurement software system built around Oracle Corp.'s 11i E-Business  > >Suite of applications.  > >    > > C > What 'bugs' me about articles, like this, is the instant loss of  D > credibility.  For instance, they could not have been running this I > project in production for four years on 11i simply because 11i has not  I > been out for four years, so really, what was the cause of the failure?  G > Trust me, I'm not an Oracle fan, but the way this article starts and  J > ends, it appears to be placing the blame for this failure on Oracle and K > not an otherwise flawed design and/or implementation specification which  F > could also include poor choices for hardware and OS underpinnings... >  >  > Barry   ? Ford hasn't shut their links relating to this project down yet.   % https://www.everestsupplier.ford.com/   D It looks as if HP-UX and Windows 2000 were involved, as I've located0 the following juicy tidbits from several places:  
 Apache 1.3
 Apache Ant
 Apache Struts  CVS  EJB  HP-UX  HTML
 JavaScript JDK  JSP  OC4J
 Oracle 11i Oracle Exchange  Oracle JDeveloper  PERL PL/SQL SQL  Websphere 5  Windows 2000   WWWebb   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 09:17:03 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) < Subject: Re: Getting FORKed Was: If OVMS is killed by HP....3 Message-ID: <93S9l2fSQM$1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <87isbfjmgl.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes: > E > What is the use of FORK? Outside a unix implementation that is. For D > a different type of system, which VMS is, FORK is about as usefull > as tits on a bull.  B    It's usefull for porting software written by people who've been
    castrated.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:34:46 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>< Subject: Re: Getting FORKed Was: If OVMS is killed by HP...., Message-ID: <41261A16.9020907@tsoft-inc.com>   Paul Repacholi wrote:   , > David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  > C >>If the VMS developers were so aware of Unix, then why didn't they D >>address FORK long ago, which can be very useful in some instances.E >>VMS programmers could use FORK, and not just for porting Unix code. ? >>I know of several things I've done that could have used FORK.  >> > E > What is the use of FORK? Outside a unix implementation that is. For D > a different type of system, which VMS is, FORK is about as usefull > as tits on a bull. >  >   ' Ok, a simple usage, just as an example.   P A service, listening for socket connection requests, accepting the connections, K and doing some work and replying to the client.  If you're expecting small  Q numbers of connection requests, with significant time between requests, then you  M can stream the requests, one at a time, letting TCP/IP buffer any additional  K connection requests until the service finishes the current request and can   return to listening.  O For a more robust solution, you'd want the listener to pass the request off to  I *something else* to service the request and continue handling subsequent  I connection requests.  The best way I've found to do this is to grant the  N connection, on a shared socket, and have another process/subprocess also open N the socket to actually service the request.  This involves some inter-process 4 communications, possibly process creation, and such.  D Note, if you've got a better method, I'd sure like to hear about it.  P While I've never used FORK, my impression from reading about it is that it will J allow a process to basically split.  In the above example, one fork would K continue as the listener, and the other would service the request and then  < terminate.  I have no idea how complex this would be to use.  P As for threads, from what I've read, it seems that you need to be working in C, Q which I avoid.  Last I heard, I don't think the BASIC language as implemented on   VMS is thread safe.    Always willing to be educated.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:16:44 +0100 9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com>  Subject: Re: HP Away0 Message-ID: <cg4j29$lgp$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:   s > Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote in message news:<cg2job$2cj$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > ? >>I don't remember if I sent this reference out before if I did  >>my apologies.  >>C >>http://tesla.hpl.hp.com/self-manage03/Finals/henson-self-tune.pdf  >>B >>DFS aka ZFS will be released as part of the Sun Software ExpressD >>program later this year, I will send you refs to the documentation >>when this happens. >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >  > 9 > don't bother, because nobody is porting to your garbage 0 > systems and cert of the week club slowaris ...  + Is it just me or is the echo getting worse.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:19:05 +0100 9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com>  Subject: Re: HP Away0 Message-ID: <cg4j6l$lgp$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:   s > Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote in message news:<cg2job$2cj$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > ? >>I don't remember if I sent this reference out before if I did  >>my apologies.  >>C >>http://tesla.hpl.hp.com/self-manage03/Finals/henson-self-tune.pdf  >>B >>DFS aka ZFS will be released as part of the Sun Software ExpressD >>program later this year, I will send you refs to the documentation >>when this happens. >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >  > ds9 > don't bother, because nobody is porting to your garbage 0 > systems and cert of the week club slowaris ...  7 So you don't want to know what the competition can do ?   8 Actually thats a silly question on my part, its entirely6 obvious that understanding what you slag off has never5 been high on your agenda. If it had people might take  you a bit more seriously.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 04:46:56 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) Subject: Re: HP Away= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0408200346.6e7de4a2@posting.google.com>   x "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> wrote in message news:<41249b67$0$210$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>...> > "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message 9 > news:f30679fb.0408190342.4b3fd5ad@posting.google.com... L > > "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> wrote in message 4 > > news:<4123ce3f$0$198$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>...@ > >> "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message< > >> news:f30679fb.0408180326.4e30f681@posting.google.com...: > >> > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message@ > >> > news:<d7791aa1.0408171532.3d180428@posting.google.com>...* > >> >> Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy / > >> >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> E > >> >> wrote in message news:<cftc6o$7hm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > >> >> E > >> >> remember, a box is only as good as the os that runs on it ... 7 > >> >> OpenVMS complimented alpha and soon itanium ... F > >> >> neither IBM or sun has any os to compliment their hardware ... > >> >< > >> > I think Andrew knows that OpenVMS is a good product !: > >> > He is not in this news group wasting his time ! ;-)< > >> > But OVMS still expensive ! I think a good way to sell? > >> > OpenVMS systems (Itanium) is delivery it as an appliance B > >> > product - not exclusevily of course. For Telecom operators,C > >> > Financial, etc ... Put a lot of Oracle, BEA, Attunity inside : > >> > and sell the system(s) like a kit to power-and-run.A > >> > Like the NetApp OS.  May be with the Itanium Blades we can  > >> > have a good surprise !  > >> > > >> > > >> > Regards > >> >	 > >> > FC  > >> > >> > >> Fabio,  > >>M > >> Can you phone Servix in Brazil (they sell Itanium and Alphas) on 11 3619 M > >> 3414 please? Get a quote for a rx1600, they are 1U high. I really would   > >> be N > >> interested to know how much one would be from them, I want to understand  > >> theD > >> scale of the high import charges you have previously mentioned. > >>M > >> Post back here the cost, go for an entry level config, 1 CPU and 1GB of  	 > >> RAM.  > >> > >> Thanks  > >>	 > >> Alex  > >  > >  > > Ok Alex  > > A > > Wait a few hours ! :-) By the way I know  another reseller in > > > Brazil: www.decatron.com.br ! They are in Rio de Janeiro ! > > May I quote them ? > >  > > Regards  > >  > > FC >  > Fabio, > K > Yes why not get a quote from them too, I like their name with DEC in it,  M > although unlike Servix  they are not mentioning VMS on their website (from  # > admittedly a quick look through).  >  > Cheers >  > Alex     Alex     I receive one quote:  A HP Integrity rx1600 with 1 CPU Itanium2 (1.1 GHz) , 1 GB of mem,  @ 1 disk ( 36 GB 10K RPM) , Linux, 1 year of support Plus HP 24x7.   US$ 7.244,00   Obs: The 24x7 is mandatory !     Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:06:17 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: HP Away, Message-ID: <41262F89.4080705@tsoft-inc.com>   Andrew Harrison wrote:   > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > H >> Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote in message / >> news:<cg2job$2cj$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  >>A >>> I don't remember if I sent this reference out before if I did  >>> my apologies.  >>> E >>> http://tesla.hpl.hp.com/self-manage03/Finals/henson-self-tune.pdf  >>> D >>> DFS aka ZFS will be released as part of the Sun Software ExpressF >>> program later this year, I will send you refs to the documentation >>> when this happens. >>>  >>> Regards  >>> Andrew Harrison  >> >> >>: >> don't bother, because nobody is porting to your garbage1 >> systems and cert of the week club slowaris ...  >  > - > Is it just me or is the echo getting worse.  > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison   N As I mentioned earlier, we must be getting boob so riled up that he's mashing D the send button hard enough to defeat the anti-bounce features.  :-)   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:03:31 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: HP Away* Message-ID: <41262EE3.70409@tsoft-inc.com>  
 CJT wrote:   > John Smith wrote:  >  >> Bob Ceculski wrote: >>H >>> Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote in message0 >>> news:<cg2job$2cj$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... >>> B >>>> I don't remember if I sent this reference out before if I did >>>> my apologies. >>>>F >>>> http://tesla.hpl.hp.com/self-manage03/Finals/henson-self-tune.pdf >>>>E >>>> DFS aka ZFS will be released as part of the Sun Software Express G >>>> program later this year, I will send you refs to the documentation  >>>> when this happens.  >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Andrew Harrison >>>  >>> ; >>> don't bother, because nobody is porting to your garbage 2 >>> systems and cert of the week club slowaris ... >> >> >> >> >> Bob,  >>L >> Quit blowing so hard. I'm sure Andrew is a perfectly nice guy, aside fromH >> the fact that he works for Sun...but give him a break... he probably  >> has a6 >> mortgage and needs to eat just like the rest of us. >>H >> Solaris is perfectly adequate for those who don't know any better. I 
 >> can seeF >> the new Sun advertising campaign now, "Solaris & Linux. The perfect9 >> combination for all you ignorant 'suits' and IT guys."  >>I >> The real problem is that HP refuses to educate those who need to know  	 >> better  >> >> > G > I think another real problem is that they showed the wrong people the  > door.  >  >   M You mean like DEC did?  The problem at DEC was that they assigned the job of  O cutting the fat to ..... The Fat!  Never did find even one who cut his own job.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:32:39 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>  Subject: HP Invent wisely?8 Message-ID: <20040820103239.462c8a76.mathog@caltech.edu>  . In:  http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=179679 and elsewhere HP lays out a plan to "invent wisely", thatV6 is, to only invest in R&D that will clearly contribute to the bottom line.o  6 Which sounds fine unless you've ever actully worked in7 research, any kind of research.  The only way to target-: R&D with that sort of precision is if the research subject= is only 1-2 years away from actual production use.  Otherwiset; "what you need" and "what you'll find" are not sufficientlyi@ predictable.  To my mind this level of "R&D" is just "D" - it's 9 engineering an existing and well characterized technologyi: to achieve a predetermined goal. That's certainly a worthy3 thing to do if HP intends to do more than just slapM5 HP stickers on other people's hardware.  But it's notO= the _only_ worthy thing to do and it's insanely short sighted ; since down the road it means the company will have produced @ (and hence control via patents) no new fundamental technologies.  9 This policy effectively signals the end of HP as a sourceV5 of research.   Research is looking into subjects _not.0 already well characterized_ to try to understand@ them better.  Although one can guess which ways things might go,B more often than not the results lead off in unexpected directions.5 A successful research company will capitalize on what.: falls out, even if it isn't what they originally expected.   Finally, HP management is demonstrably inept.  Consequently, HP's excecutives are unlikely to implement this new R&D policy successfully.  If Carly had been at ATT back in the day doubtless she would haveA taken an axe to Bell labs and fired Shockley and the rest because = "AT&T products use tubes and all this theoretical solid stateo? research isn't immediately applicable."  (More or less what sheM# did at Lucent, years later, right?)C  A Once upon a time HP had the workers and assets to be another IBM,uD unfortunately HP came up short, very short, in the executive suite. = As a result IBM management has less and less to fear from HP.i     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 05:14:49 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)2 Subject: HP's Problem? It Ain't the SAP Install...= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0408200414.3a6a95b6@posting.google.com>1   Click0  2 http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jonathan/20040816  
 or read...    ) HP's Problem? It Ain't the SAP Install...l  D So we all saw that HP had a bad week. My bet? It's only going to get? worse - and it has nothing to do with their SAP implementation.t  D Personally, all cards on the table, I'm a fan of their CEO - I thinkE she demonstrates courage, is willing to buck conventional wisdom, andgC has a titanium spine. (Last week's public firings notwithstanding.)t  C But that said, I think HP faces an enormous challenge. And it's noteD related to the cancellation of PA-RISC, or weakness in their Itanium- transition. Or even Dell's printer onslaught.a  ? To me, HP's problems spawn from the death of... their operatingtC system, HP/UX. Like IBM, they've elected to ask their customers and C ISV's to move to Red Hat Linux or Microsoft Windows on x86 systems. E And if you're an ISV, how does that differentiate HP? - they're a boxrA vendor. If you're a customer, where does that leave you with your-F HP/UX investments? Facing untimely change - with a vendor no longer in charge of their OS.y  ? On the hardware side, Sun, IBM, Dell and HP will all vigorously4> compete for the x86 hardware space. I'm confident our industryB standard Opteron systems will lead everyone in price/performance -F especially in multi-processing environments. But as Fowler points out,E that's just the box side of the equation. On top of that, our systems F story will have one big advantage, an advantage spawning from the fact< that a server without an operating system is a space heater.  F As you well know, our operating system, Solaris, continues to set landC speed records on SPARC, while branching into new territory on x86 -a@ and it's the least expensive in the industry. I continue to hearE customers disappointed in the realization that ISV's don't qualify totE "linux" (or specifically, Fedora) - so they have to pay big bucks for E RHEL if they want commercial support. And while HP stumbles into that E reality, our commitment to Solaris (did I mention we're open sourcing A it - check out http://www.blastwave.org) highlights the demise of E HP/UX. HP/UX won't even run on HP's own industry standard servers. As A an ISV told me last week, "I come to sun, you tell me to write to7> Java, then write to Solaris. Clear as a bell." If you're an HPC customer or ISV, have some fun, ask your HP rep the same question -t "what should I write to?"@  C While HP tells its customers to "change" (we're still not sure 'to'1@ what, I'm more comfortable with the 'from' part), we're going to@ continue redoubling our investment (with partners, too) in superD scalable SPARC systems, the fastest industry standard servers in theF market - and the only commercial operating system deployed at scale inE both environments. Because no matter what the ads say, what customers $ don't want is unnecessary... change.  D We hear consistently that what they do want is a vendor committed to its operating system roadmap.e  ! (2004-08-16 15:03:18.0) Permalinke   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:33:18 +0100h- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>o< Subject: IA64-version of SETI for VMS ?  Does Shannon Know ?* Message-ID: <2om9flFcc78mU1@uni-berlin.de>  *  From Terry Shannon's latest offerings at:  A http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=04/08/18/3021817m  F "On the SETI@Home application, IPF definitely rules, for a variety of I reasons. Both the Alpha and IPF CPUs cited above deliver over 2GB/sec of  G memory bandwidth; AlphaServers provide better memory latency. When I/O  D performance is measured on a 2GB/sec Fibre Channel interconnect, an E rx4640 running at 1.5GHz beats a 1GHz ES45 on single-stream apps; on  5 dual-stream apps performance is virtually identical."u  C Anyone got any idea where to get the IA64-version of SETI for VMS ?   , I've got a spare IA64 box gathering dust ...  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:14:32 +0100s9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com>e( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....0 Message-ID: <cg4iu4$lgp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:n > In article <cg2hbo$1ga$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> writes: > ; >>Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do securityC8 >>and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on. >>VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling. >  > 
 >    ROTFLOL.u > 3 Care to elaborate base on your experiences of usingP- a current Solaris based system clustered ????a  * Nope I guess not so who is laughing now  ?   Regards  Andrew Harrison.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:26:54 -0400u# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP...., Message-ID: <If2dnVMWQOphQrjcRVn-gw@igs.net>   Andrew Harrison wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote:C >> In article <cg2hbo$1ga$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison . >> <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> writes: >>= >>> Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do security7: >>> and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on0 >>> VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling. >> >> >>    ROTFLOL. >>5 > Care to elaborate base on your experiences of usingo/ > a current Solaris based system clustered ????  >a, > Nope I guess not so who is laughing now  ?    H Andrew, one might also ask exactly how much experience do you personally. have administering current VMS-based clusters?  J Hey, it's a fair question. Otherwise we are just at the spec-sheet pissing contest level.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:39:25 -0700d# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: If OVMS is killed by HP....9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIMEOLDKAA.tom@kednos.com>r   < -----Original Message-----* < From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]' < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 4:27 AMe < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma* < Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... <  <k < Andrew Harrison wrote: < > Bob Koehler wrote:E < >> In article <cg2hbo$1ga$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrisonx0 < >> <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> writes: < >>? < >>> Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do securityw< < >>> and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on2 < >>> VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling. < >> < >> < >>    ROTFLOL. < >>7 < > Care to elaborate base on your experiences of usingo1 < > a current Solaris based system clustered ????e < >,. < > Nope I guess not so who is laughing now  ? <o <eJ < Andrew, one might also ask exactly how much experience do you personally0 < have administering current VMS-based clusters? <DL < Hey, it's a fair question. Otherwise we are just at the spec-sheet pissing < contest level. <   % You may have seen the following story  www.kednos.com/TCO2004em.pdf   <c < ---F( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004  <t ---w& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004e   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 09:25:38 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....3 Message-ID: <TtC0LCjb3LHW@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  R In article <If2dnVMWQOphQrjcRVn-gw@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Andrew Harrison wrote: >>>  >>>    ROTFLOL.p >>>t6 >> Care to elaborate base on your experiences of using0 >> a current Solaris based system clustered ????  B    Exactly.  Guess which systems were hacked into, despite a largeD    time of full time patch applying admins.  Yes, I could go on, but5    why bore all the VMS folks with the same old junk.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:51:55 +0100 9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com>e( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....0 Message-ID: <cg56mm$rvh$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  T > In article <If2dnVMWQOphQrjcRVn-gw@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >  >>Andrew Harrison wrote: >> >>>>   ROTFLOL.  >>>> >>>d6 >>>Care to elaborate base on your experiences of using0 >>>a current Solaris based system clustered ???? >  > D >    Exactly.  Guess which systems were hacked into, despite a largeF >    time of full time patch applying admins.  Yes, I could go on, but7 >    why bore all the VMS folks with the same old junk.n >   ; Thats hardly elaborating on your claims is it. All you have.> done is recouched your claim without any additional supporting data.m   Regards  Andrew Harrisond   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:50:51 +0100o9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com>i( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....0 Message-ID: <cg56km$rvh$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   John Smith wrote:  > Andrew Harrison wrote: >  >>Bob Koehler wrote: >>C >>>In article <cg2hbo$1ga$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison . >>><andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> writes: >>>w >>>e= >>>>Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do securityo: >>>>and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on0 >>>>VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling. >>>e >>>f >>>   ROTFLOL. >>>t >>5 >>Care to elaborate base on your experiences of using / >>a current Solaris based system clustered ????  >>, >>Nope I guess not so who is laughing now  ? >  >  > J > Andrew, one might also ask exactly how much experience do you personally0 > have administering current VMS-based clusters? >   
 None recently-  9 But then I am not making any claims about how insecure orh: otherwise OpenVMS is or how good or bad OpenVMS clustering is.M  8 Plenty of people like the Bobs on this group make claims8 about UNIX/Linux etc based on absolutely zero experience: of the current offering that they are slagging of, I don't6 slag OpenVMS off so I do not fall into their category.   Regardss Andrew HarrisonyL > Hey, it's a fair question. Otherwise we are just at the spec-sheet pissing > contest level. >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:12:24 -0400c( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP...., Message-ID: <412614D8.9050404@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  5 > In article <b9NZVeoLNsP5@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > H >>Perhaps those who want VMS to look like Unix should ask their favorite >>Unix vendor for AST support. >> > E > I would be willing to bet that there is a much larger percentage ofoF > VMS users who would like a working fork than Unix users who want AST4 > support (or even know what it is for that matter!) >  > bill >  >   P Ok, I'll ask some possible stupid questions.  I've never used any brand of Unix . so I'm not aware of Unix programing practices.  G I cannot imagine an OS without ASTs or something similar.  Timers, I/O  0 completion, and such, how are such done on Unix?   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadi Vanderbilt, PA  15486g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:16:14 -04000( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP...., Message-ID: <412615BE.3050507@tsoft-inc.com>   Andrew Harrison wrote:   > Bob Koehler wrote: > D >> In article <cg2hbo$1ga$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison . >> <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> writes: >>= >>> Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do security : >>> and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on0 >>> VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling. >> >> >> >>    ROTFLOL. >>5 > Care to elaborate base on your experiences of usingc/ > a current Solaris based system clustered ????  > , > Nope I guess not so who is laughing now  ? > 	 > Regardsu > Andrew Harrisony  H Gee Andy boy, I took it that he's laughing at the job you assigned boob.  % Care to elaborate on how you took it?i   -- n4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road@ Vanderbilt, PA  15486:   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 09:45:34 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0408200845.7b1dabc6@posting.google.com>m  q Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote in message news:<cg4iu4$lgp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...m > Bob Koehler wrote:p > > In article <cg2hbo$1ga$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> writes: > > = > >>Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do security : > >>and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on0 > >>VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling. > >  > >  > >    ROTFLOL.o > > 5 > Care to elaborate base on your experiences of usingv/ > a current Solaris based system clustered ????n > , > Nope I guess not so who is laughing now  ? > 	 > Regardst > Andrew Harrisonl  ; we are, because slowaris cannot do anything close to what as5 VMS cluster can, and it is actually a SECURE cluster.n: VMS was written for clustering, and unless you have opened5 yourself up to a lawsuit, it always will be the best.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:52:47 +0000 (UTC) ' From: Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca>m( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....) Message-ID: <cg5a8v$bdc$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca>   _ >> David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message news:<41242745.2020308@tsoft-inc.com>...-R >>>If the VMS developers were so aware of Unix, then why didn't they address FORK T >>>long ago, which can be very useful in some instances.  VMS programmers could use Q >>>FORK, and not just for porting Unix code.  I know of several things I've done a >>>that could have used FORK.i   > Bob Ceculski wrote:T? >> and I know several thousand things I can do on VMS that unix : >> can't ... the top two being security and clustering ...  : Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote:; > Since everyone except you knows that UNIX can do securityb8 > and Clustering the 998 things that you think can do on. > VMS but cannot on UNIX better be compelling.  E Ahhhh great.  We haven't had a good flamewar in comp.os.vms for a fewtJ months.   I'm just surprised nobody's cross-posted to any of the comp.unix groups yet.IC (or cross-post to alt.folklore.computers and get the TOPS-20 peopleo agitated too!)  
 Thomas Dzubin0( Calgary, Vancouver, and Saskatoon CANADA   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:19:02 -0400y! From: gokrix <gokrix@hotmail.com>e( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....6 Message-ID: <cg5bq7$qs3$1@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>   Bob Koehler wrote:t >  Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> wrote in message news:<cg04ls$6c7$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > I >>AIX is actually a pretty competent UNIX, ZOS is also a pretty competentsJ >>OS and there is nothing lousy about either of them but then I doubt very, >>much it you have any experience of either. >  > I >    Is that why they say AIX stands for "Ain't unIX"?  I've used AIX, itrJ >    is a fairly competent OS for something that very much resembles UNIX.G >    Of all the UNIX and UNIX-lookalikes out there, AIX is also the one ! >    which is the most different.  >   H AIX stands for Advanced Interactive eXecutive.  It has a decent feature I and is seriously stable, but all the same it is somewhat strange from an eF administration point of view to someone familiar with other Unices or 4 Linux.  It also has the weirdest linker in creation.  G Other people have commented that AIX is more like a hosted environment eF than anything else, and you do get that impression if you work on it. J You get the feeling of deep waters and things beyond the human ken on AIX.   Thanks,  --GS   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:58:18 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>6 Subject: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's@ Message-ID: <uHlVc.179447$wH4.11882051@twister.southeast.rr.com>  9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=04/08/19/6976375    -- @ Kenneth R. Farmer <><a http://www.OpenVMS.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:31:06 -0700u# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>p: Subject: RE: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIGEOLDKAA.tom@kednos.com>v  @ This should be forwarded to HP Senior Management.  Someone there( must recognize the business opportunity.   < -----Original Message-----= < From: Kenneth Farmer [mailto:kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com]e' < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 4:58 AMi < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 8 < Subject: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's <  < ; < http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=04/08/19/69763758 <  < -- P < Kenneth R. Farmer <><  < http://www.OpenVMS.org <  <  < ---n( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004o <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:47:09 -0400f# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>u: Subject: Re: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's, Message-ID: <GZ6dnTDf9utGnbvcRVn-ig@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote:gB > This should be forwarded to HP Senior Management.  Someone there* > must recognize the business opportunity.    K And just whom do you think is high enough in the HP pecking order to notice I the opportunity, and if they indeed noticed the opportunity would they doo anything positive about it?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:11:41 -0700,# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> : Subject: RE: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIGEOODKAA.tom@kednos.com>   < Well I am making the presumption that there are some serious> businessmen (or should I say businesswomen) in the enterprise.   < -----Original Message-----* < From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]' < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 6:47 AM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < < Subject: Re: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's <  <  < Tom Linden wrote:nD < > This should be forwarded to HP Senior Management.  Someone there, < > must recognize the business opportunity. <  < D < And just whom do you think is high enough in the HP pecking order  < to noticecK < the opportunity, and if they indeed noticed the opportunity would they doo < anything positive about it?e <  <  <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004S <  ---d& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004e   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Aug 2004 17:30:58 GMT/ From: Thierry Dussuet <thierry@dussuet.lugs.ch>M Subject: Missing Display1 Message-ID: <slrncicdaj.1mq3.thierry@MARS.Family>o   Hello!  L I have a VAXstation 3100/38 at home which has the switch set as a VAXserver.L Since some time I see such messages every 5 minutes, which fill up the audit, log, and I'm wondering where they come from.  ( Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on MERKURM Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on MERKUR, system id:c 26825t8 Auditable event:          Detached process login failure1 Event time:               20-AUG-2004 18:43:13.86n* PID:                      20200817        * Username:                 SYSTEM          " Process owner:            [SYSTEM]I Image name:               $1$DKA100:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]LOGINOUT.EXEe@ Status:                   %DECW-F-NOMSG, Message number 02DB8204  : The message number means "No display found", but I have no1 keyboard/mouse/monitor hooked up to the computer.oI And a PIPE SHOW DEVICE/FILES | SEARCH SYS$PIPE 20200817 gives no results. L Does somebody know how to find out what is causing this or how to get rid of it?e   Thierrys   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 05:51:31 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)0 Subject: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0408200451.20c4ae70@posting.google.com>l  ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:27:55 -0600 " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...0 Message-ID: <Lpidnekb_aaLu7vcRVn-hA@bresnan.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:t  + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994i  G The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low   price?   --  ! ---------------------------------  The Golden Years Sux.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:32:29 +0400 : From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev{at}DeltaTelecom{dot}RU>& Subject: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling3 Message-ID: <F037B14549F6B03D43938700DC233F37@nntp>l   Hi All!aP 	Today I tried to compiling some stuff in macro under OVMS 7.3-2/Alpha, I got a  some diagnostic:  E $ MACRO/MIGRATION/LIST/OBJECT=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.OBJ PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.MAR  ...   M                        00000000      611         $TRAN   SEPA,           KWDSr1                                          1.......tL %AMAC-E-GENERROR, (1) generated ERROR: 0  $TRAN requires symbols defined in 
 ARCH_DEFS.MARt, -AMAC-I-ATEXPLINE, at macro expansion line 6B          .ERROR  ; $TRAN requires symbols defined in ARCH_DEFS.MAR  2 %AMAC-E-IFEXPRNABS, (1) IF expression not absolute- -AMAC-I-ATEXPLINE, at macro expansion line 16       .IF NE, IXVMS  M                        00000000      814         $TRAN   TPA$_ALPHA,     KWDSH   	oJ 	This module was developed under OVMS 7.3/Alpha. Is there need to do some  changes of my .MAR sources ?   	Thanks in advance!        -- iF + WBR, OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .................................+D Delta Telecom Inc., NMT-450i, IMT-MC-450(CDMA2000) cellular operatorE Russia,191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3 Cel: +7 (812) 116-3222yF +http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru ............. Frying on OpenVMS only +   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:50:32 GMTa& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>* Subject: Re: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling2 Message-ID: <IknVc.8463$3d5.3160@news.cpqcorp.net>   Ruslan R. Laishev wrote:	 > Hi All!n@ >     Today I tried to compiling some stuff in macro under OVMS ' > 7.3-2/Alpha, I got a some diagnostic:  > G > $ MACRO/MIGRATION/LIST/OBJECT=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.OBJ PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.MARt > ...p > J >                       00000000      611         $TRAN   SEPA,            > KWDS2 >                                         1.......J > %AMAC-E-GENERROR, (1) generated ERROR: 0  $TRAN requires symbols definedI                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^h   > in ARCH_DEFS.MAR       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^    G The $TRAN macros now need to know whether they are being used on Alpha oI or Itanium (they are common source).  The developer who made the changes aG added various ".IF DF EVAX" and ".IF DF IA64" directives to the macro. dD The Alpha version wasn't scheduled to be changed until 8.2, but the - common source accidently slipped into V7.3-2.P  E Those symbols are not part of the Macro-32 compiler itself, but come e- from a file called SYS$LIBRARY:ARCH_DEFS.MAR.o   So turn your Macro command tos  ; $ MACRO/MIGRATION/LIST=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL/OBJ=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL  8 SYS$LIBRARY:ARCH_DEFS.MAR+SYS$DISK:[]PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.MAR  I I have asked the developer to just have two sets of macros in our source  I pool.  One for Alpha and another for Itanium.  When we build OpenVMS, we 3B know that the architecture is.  We should just insert the correct = definition of $TRAN here in ZKO so you won't have to add the .A ARCH_DEFS.MAR (which is commonly used here, but obviously not so  % commonly used in the user community).H  - If you have more questions, feel free to ask.s     -- : John Reagan@/ HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leadere Hewlett-Packard Companyo   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:19 +0400o: From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev{at}DeltaTelecom{dot}RU>* Subject: Re: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling3 Message-ID: <E3C11EE43DA94E00947D7EB622FA225A@nntp>    Hi John!   	Thanks. I works now.a   John Reagan wrote:   > Ruslan R. Laishev wrote: > 
 >> Hi All!A >>     Today I tried to compiling some stuff in macro under OVMS a( >> 7.3-2/Alpha, I got a some diagnostic: >>H >> $ MACRO/MIGRATION/LIST/OBJECT=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.OBJ PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.MAR >> ... >>; >>                       00000000      611         $TRAN   t >> SEPA,           KWDSL3 >>                                         1....... K >> %AMAC-E-GENERROR, (1) generated ERROR: 0  $TRAN requires symbols defined  > J >                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >  >> in ARCH_DEFS.MARp >  >      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  >  > I > The $TRAN macros now need to know whether they are being used on Alpha >K > or Itanium (they are common source).  The developer who made the changes  I > added various ".IF DF EVAX" and ".IF DF IA64" directives to the macro. .F > The Alpha version wasn't scheduled to be changed until 8.2, but the / > common source accidently slipped into V7.3-2.  > G > Those symbols are not part of the Macro-32 compiler itself, but come  / > from a file called SYS$LIBRARY:ARCH_DEFS.MAR.  >  > So turn your Macro command to  > = > $ MACRO/MIGRATION/LIST=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL/OBJ=PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL  : > SYS$LIBRARY:ARCH_DEFS.MAR+SYS$DISK:[]PCF_DRV-MSC-TBL.MAR > K > I have asked the developer to just have two sets of macros in our source nK > pool.  One for Alpha and another for Itanium.  When we build OpenVMS, we  D > know that the architecture is.  We should just insert the correct ? > definition of $TRAN here in ZKO so you won't have to add the kC > ARCH_DEFS.MAR (which is commonly used here, but obviously not so 4' > commonly used in the user community).  > / > If you have more questions, feel free to ask.a >  >    --  F + WBR, OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .................................+D Delta Telecom Inc., NMT-450i, IMT-MC-450(CDMA2000) cellular operatorE Russia,191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3 Cel: +7 (812) 116-3222wF +http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru ............. Frying on OpenVMS only +   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:20:54 -0700 3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>t* Subject: Re: OVMS 7.3-2 & MACRO compilling. Message-ID: <412616D6.5040107@Flying-Disk.com>   John Reagan wrote:  K > I have asked the developer to just have two sets of macros in our source oK > pool.  One for Alpha and another for Itanium.  When we build OpenVMS, we rD > know that the architecture is.  We should just insert the correct ? > definition of $TRAN here in ZKO so you won't have to add the  C > ARCH_DEFS.MAR (which is commonly used here, but obviously not so  ' > commonly used in the user community).r  8 That would be nice.   I got bitten by this problem also.: Naturally, it was late at night on a weekend (when else do9 you do system upgrades?), and it was a pain to modify all- my build procedures.   Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 02:18:54 -0700/ From: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com (John Reinhardt)a% Subject: Re: questions about TZ88N-VA-= Message-ID: <5d708ac7.0408200118.6760eac3@posting.google.com>    > J > I have mostly SCSI-1 (5 Mb/s), some fast narrow SCSI-2 (10 MB/s), mostlyH > VA disks internal or in BA350 or BA353 shelves, some VW disks in BA356I > shelves (all of these are on the 10 Mb/s SCSI).  When doing a backup totJ > the DLT system mentioned above from a) a disk on the same SCSI bus, b) aA > disk  with a direct connection to the same machine and c) to anmE > MSCP-served disk, what will be the bottleneck: disk speed, SCSI-buseJ > speed, tape-drive speed or network speed (only a possibility in the last > case, obviously)?   F   If you find the Systems and Options (SOC) archives on the HP website0 and look up the TZ88 in the tape drive section (C http://h18002.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC/QB00DPPF.PDF )yout= will find that the information given there says the  "TZ88 iswC read/write compatible with the TZ85, TZ86, TZ87 and TZ88. TZ88 usess: DLT/CompacTape IV media and is read/write compatible with,4 DLT/CompacTape III, and DLT/CompacTape IIIXT media."  F   When using a DLT IV make sure that it hasn't been previously used onC with a DLT7000 (TZ89) or DLT8000 drive since they also use the sametE cartdridge but at a higher density (35/70GB or 40/80GB) than the TZ88 A can handle. If this is the case, the TZ88 will give an error when E trying to load the tape.  The only way I know of to remedy that is to + use a degauser and erase the tape manually.   D The SOC also says the drive's native transfer speed is 1.5MB/sec andD the compressed speed is up to 3.0MB/sec.  Ths means that in senariosE (a) and (b) it may be a toss-up as to what is the bottleneck as quitedE a few SCSI-1 and some SCSI-2 drives will be hard pressed to sustain a F transfer rate of 3MB/Sec and if both the hard drive and the tape driveE are on the same bus it may be the bus bandwith that is the limit.  InoA senario (c) the network will be the limiting factor if you have a-E 10baseT network and probably even if you have a 100baseT although thea3 throughput of the MSCP server may be a factor also.w  6   Also in the SOC documents under Storage Enclosures (D http://h18002.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC/QB001QPF.PDF ), it> lists the TZ88Z-VA supported for the BA350 (BA356 also) shelf.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 08:09:24 -0700s3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> % Subject: Re: questions about TZ88N-VAt. Message-ID: <41261424.4030009@Flying-Disk.com>   John Reinhardt wrote:l  H >   When using a DLT IV make sure that it hasn't been previously used onE > with a DLT7000 (TZ89) or DLT8000 drive since they also use the sameiG > cartdridge but at a higher density (35/70GB or 40/80GB) than the TZ88aC > can handle. If this is the case, the TZ88 will give an error wheniG > trying to load the tape.  The only way I know of to remedy that is toi- > use a degauser and erase the tape manually.O  = And it will take a *really* *powerful* degausser!   The least > expensive one I have found that will reliably do the job costs< $1500.   The really good ones cost up to twice that.   I was shocked, to say the least.  ? Another possible solution (which I have not tried yet) would bei@ to manually unwind the first ten feet or so of the tape and pass? it over one of those ceramic/rare earth magnets.   I have one Ig@ removed from an old Fujitsu Eagle disk drive, so I will try that- the next time I need to re-initialize a tape.p   Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:14:56 -0500a! From: Mike Dorn <mrdorn@visi.com>i% Subject: Re: questions about TZ88N-VAr: Message-ID: <41262381$0$8084$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>   Alan Frisbie wrote:  > John Reinhardt wrote:  > I >>   When using a DLT IV make sure that it hasn't been previously used onsF >> with a DLT7000 (TZ89) or DLT8000 drive since they also use the sameH >> cartdridge but at a higher density (35/70GB or 40/80GB) than the TZ88D >> can handle. If this is the case, the TZ88 will give an error whenH >> trying to load the tape.  The only way I know of to remedy that is to. >> use a degauser and erase the tape manually. >  > ? > And it will take a *really* *powerful* degausser!   The leastg@ > expensive one I have found that will reliably do the job costs> > $1500.   The really good ones cost up to twice that.   I was > shocked, to say the least. > A > Another possible solution (which I have not tried yet) would be B > to manually unwind the first ten feet or so of the tape and passA > it over one of those ceramic/rare earth magnets.   I have one I0B > removed from an old Fujitsu Eagle disk drive, so I will try that/ > the next time I need to re-initialize a tape.  >  > Alan > Q Actually, I ran into this problem occasionally at my last job, where we had both lN TZ88 and TZ89 drives.  You can reset the density on a tape by loading it back I into a TZ89 drive and manually selecting the lower density, then writing  O something to it.  (Of course, this is no help if you only have a TZ88 drive...)    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:04:26 GMTI" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt0 Message-ID: <00A36A14.C8ACC269@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <b096a4ee.0408191753.20cf9fc4@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:Y >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A3695E.CC43E1CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>... p >> In article <b096a4ee.0408190543.722e672@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:\ >> >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A36935.DBFDA36A@SendSpamHere.ORG>...t >> >> In article <b096a4ee.0408181828.7a95deaa@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:_ >> >> >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A368AD.895B28AD@SendSpamHere.ORG>...sw >> >> >> In article <b096a4ee.0408180856.29328185@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:r >> >> >> >koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<bOAm7GU1UAHY@eisner.encompasserve.org>...c >> >> >> >> In article <4120D4FD.1060503@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:l	 >>  [...] M >> >> >> >Actually, I'd like to see an option to add the time to the prompt. o
 >> >> >> > >> >> >> >JMHO	 >> >> >> i	 >> >> >> z% >> >> >> With continuous time update?n >> >> >pL >> >> >No. I want to be able to come back to a SmarTerm session and at leastM >> >> >have a clue as to when things happened. I want the time to be the timeSM >> >> >that the prompt appeared on the screen. Someone mailed me a utility to.& >> >> >try but I haven't tried it yet. >> >> >tN >> >> >> FYI, with XPDNT, you can include the last 32 characters in the promptN >> >> >> string.  It can also be used to update the DECterm title bar with theN >> >> >> current default (up to about 60 characters of it) or have is write in  >> >> >> the 25th "status" line. >> >> > K >> >> >I don't have anything to run DECwindows on and I don't have any real  >> >> >need for DECwindows.  >> >> ? >> >> Does your terminal emulator support the 25th status line?r >> >0 >> >Yes. But it's not necessarily the 25th line! >> u- >> True, it is not necessarily the 25th line.o >> oO >> >> >> It also maintains a list of prior defaults which can be navigated witht; >> >> >> a utility that is launched via a hot key sequence.r >> >> >gJ >> >> >Cool. But I already have my TO.COM which does the same and more. OnL >> >> >VMS I live in a character-cell world, and for my job, that's probablyM >> >> >best. The only thing I think I would like a VMS GUI for is to navigatemK >> >> >directory trees. Selecting a file would make it the equivalence nameDH >> >> >of the logical name FILE so that I could then run a succession of >> >> >commands on said FILE.a >> >> # >> >> Who said this was DECwindows?p >> >J >> >Well, you *are* VAXMAN and you mentioned DECterms. The only place I'veH >> >seen DECterms is on DECwindows (albeit about 13 years ago!). Put allJ >> >that together and, well, I thought you, as VAXMAN, surely wouldn't use >> >any other GUI! >> rI >> You are obviously absorbed into the Weendoze world.  There is a deviceiJ >> knows as the terminal which was the interface long before the advent of >> the DECwindows. >lF >What's your point? You were talking about DECterms and suddenly we'reD >back to VT420's? Yes, I am quite familiar with VT terminals. I usedF >actual vt100's and similar graphics terminals for much of my graduateG >research (1985 - 1991). I only used DECwindows for maybe the last yearsF >of it and I also used VWS windows (or whatever it was called). I usedC >the Visual 603 vt220 clone as a postdoc for two years. Then I usedeF >mostly that and VT420's/VT320's at my next job. At the job after thatC >I used VT420, later a PC with LAN Workplace for terminal emulationtG >using telnet. At my current job I rarely use VT terminals. I currentlynD >open multiple SmarTerm sessions in multiple SmarTerm windows. I canD >switch among sessions with Ctrl-Tab (or Alt-W then select a sessionD >from a list, all of which can be done without the stupid mouse) andG >among windows with Alt-Tab or Windows-Tab. (I have 35 MicroVAX systems- >on line to tend to.), > G >But I don't like the SmarTerm FTP. In fact I think it stinks. In fact,R- >for FTP I open a DOS window and use its FTP!2 >MG >Yes, I too hate MS Windows, but that's what they give me at work and I D >do the best I can with it. But when I'm working in the VAX sessionsD >it's not too bad. Sometimes stupid annoying things happen, but theyE >happen far more often with the other Windows apps than with SmarTerm88 >terminals (if you don't use SmarTerm's FTP, of course). >bC >One thing I do like about Windows is the Sticky Keys feature, even 6 >though it is buggy (which of course annoys me a lot). >e >Again, what is your point?  >o >> >VAXMAN: default = DECu >> > >> ># >> >So unless you say otherwise...!t >> w	 >> I say!i >e	 >  O-kay!s   Typical confrontational NYer.t  I *You* said you wanted a "time" in your prompt.  If it's not on a terminalh4 and it's not on a DECterm then where the hell is it?   -- -< http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.P --  , Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! m -- oK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:57:51 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt, Message-ID: <41262D8F.2040602@tsoft-inc.com>   Alan E. Feldman wrote:    G > What's your point? You were talking about DECterms and suddenly we'renE > back to VT420's? Yes, I am quite familiar with VT terminals. I usednG > actual vt100's and similar graphics terminals for much of my graduate H > research (1985 - 1991). I only used DECwindows for maybe the last yearG > of it and I also used VWS windows (or whatever it was called). I usedhD > the Visual 603 vt220 clone as a postdoc for two years. Then I usedG > mostly that and VT420's/VT320's at my next job. At the job after that?D > I used VT420, later a PC with LAN Workplace for terminal emulationH > using telnet. At my current job I rarely use VT terminals. I currentlyE > open multiple SmarTerm sessions in multiple SmarTerm windows. I caniE > switch among sessions with Ctrl-Tab (or Alt-W then select a sessiontE > from a list, all of which can be done without the stupid mouse) and0H > among windows with Alt-Tab or Windows-Tab. (I have 35 MicroVAX systems > on line to tend to.) > H > But I don't like the SmarTerm FTP. In fact I think it stinks. In fact,. > for FTP I open a DOS window and use its FTP!  Q Interesting comment on SmarTerm's FTP.  I've used it, and normally like the drag  P and drop interface.  I've had problems transfering large files where it appears G to complete transfering, but doesn't complete the transaction, and the h= destination file isn't usable.  What don't you like about it?   O Windows isn't a bad user interface.  Using SmarTerm for VMS sessions is rather rN good.  The F4 function key can also be set up to switch sessions.  Don't know ) that I've ever come close to 35 sessions.f  I I have a strange dislike of 'wasting' a 'real' system like VMS on a user  M interface.  When I think about it, it seems strange.  What better for a user rQ interface than the best system available?  Guess it comes from the time when the nA best user interface was a TTY.  At least that beat punched cards.m   Dave   -- n4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road> Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:57:05 -0400?# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>h( Subject: Total Eclipse...was Re: HP Away, Message-ID: <CJydnT3w-fWtnrvcRVn-pA@igs.net>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > Clickw >b@ > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/17/sun_hpaway_phasethree/ >a >a' > HP's Unix base offered Opteron carrot  >eA > "HP World Sun Microsystems has started Phase III of its HP Away B > program for shifting customers off the Tru64 and HP-UX operating > systems and onto Solaris.  >0G > This time round Sun has centered its attack on a new fleet of OpteronR? > servers, which were finally delivered in July, instead of itsnG > traditional UltraSPARC-based gear. As in the past, Sun offers up free D > consulting services to HP customers to demonstrate how much a moveF > from Tru64 or HP-UX will cost and how well applications will performG > on Solaris. Over the past year, Sun has pulled 150 customers from HP,>) > resulting in close to $200m in revenue.i >cH > "We were focused on moving customers from RISC to RISC before, but nowH > that we have these Opteron systems, we decided to offer a move from HPB > RISC platforms to x86 as well," said Larry Singer, Sun's head of > global market strategies.  > D > One positive with the new Opteron program is that HP customers areA > being given a path from traditionally more expensive Alpha- andr/ > PA-RISC-based servers to lower-cost x86 gear.i >a > ^a) >> ------- HP: Look at this paragraph !!!M >s > G > Sun offers workstations, a two processor box and a four processor boxsC > based on AMD's x86-64-bit Opteron chip. Sun is familiar with thiszG > shift from RISC to x86, as it has seen a number of its key customers,tA > particularly those in the financial services markets, move froms& > Solaris/SPARC kit to Linux on Intel. >tC > These days, however, Sun's renewed interest in Solaris x86 has it.D > asking HP's customer base to make an easier Unix to Unix shift andE > just replace the processor underneath the OS. But with only up to aIE > four-processor Opteron system available, Sun won't be able to tempt>H > HP's higher-end Unix customers to make this move. In addition, Sun hasG > yet to complete a 64-bit version of Solaris for Opteron. HP customershH > would need to be running 32-bit software or wait until December to get > the 64-bit OS. >rC > Sun, of course, started this HP Away program to attract Alpha andeE > PA-RISC customers that are being forced to move onto Intel's 64-bit B > Itanium processor, as HP pulls out of the processor-making game. > (...)"    K So HP has their own 'Total Eclipse' program to woo Sun whoreshipers away ton HP.U  < From http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/archives/SKHPCV11N33.pdf  L "Sun worshippers who want to reduce their IT TCO, exploit the lower cost andJ higher performance of industry standard systems, enjoy the freedom of openC source computing, become more agile and adaptive, and take the next L evolutionary step in the datacenter may find that HP and Intel outshine Sun.H The Total Eclipse program offers Sun to HP migration assistance servicesH with a proof of concept offer valued at up to $50K USD as well as systemI trade in choices to HP industry standard hardware and Linux, Windows, andBI HP-UX OS choices. The offer includes the use of a proof of concept system 5 for the duration of the project at no charge to you."   F If Sr. Shannon's article is correct, I note the conspicuous absence of OpenVMS in the offer.o  L Seems to me that HP is offering Solaris users to trade from one sow's ear to6 another, or worse. How is that beneficial to the user?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 12:16:32 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)O Subject: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....r3 Message-ID: <IOQtA7pK2t9s@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  W In article <412614D8.9050404@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > R > Ok, I'll ask some possible stupid questions.  I've never used any brand of Unix 0 > so I'm not aware of Unix programing practices. > I > I cannot imagine an OS without ASTs or something similar.  Timers, I/O -2 > completion, and such, how are such done on Unix? >   J The traditional method is to use select(). Unlike on VMS, select() on UnixG works on a wide range of device types; which is yet another Unix to VMSm porting issue.  J As for fork(), my main interest for it's presence in VMS is to aid Unix to VMS porting.   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       P SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of most disliked companies   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 07:49:48 -0700! From: nyce3000@hotmail.com (Dave)   Subject: VAX Instruction Timings= Message-ID: <f3598ae1.0408200649.556e7383@posting.google.com>t  E Has anybody experience in obtaining the execution timings for the VAX # instruction set, any model will do?g   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.461 ************************slowaris cannot do anything close to what as5 VMS cluster can, and it is actually a SECURE cluster.n: VMS was written for clustering, and unless you have opened5 yourself up to a lawsuit, it always will be the best.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:52:47 +0000 (UTC) ' From: Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca>m( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....) Message-ID: <cg5a8v$bdc$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca>   _ >> Dav