1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 21 Aug 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 462       Contents:1 Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS 1 Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS 1 Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS 1 Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS  A whopping 50 percent...  ??? ! Re: A whopping 50 percent...  ???  Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator???- DEC Support then (was charon vax emulator???) ? Re: Does SHE know about VMS??  not according to this article :( ? RE: Does SHE know about VMS??  not according to this article :( D RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersD Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 usersO Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users usersusers  Re: Ford and Oracle  Re: HP Invent wisely?  HPworld - I Survived Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... 1 Re: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's ) RE: Legato vs VMS Backup -- Recover Speed  Re: Missing Display  Re: Multia questions% OpenVMS Freeware Call For Submissions + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... ) OVMS SIG, Hobbyist News from HPworld-2004  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt # Re: Total Eclipse...was Re: HP Away J Re: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....J RE: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....P Re: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... HP... Re: VAX Instruction Timings  Re: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha?  RE: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha?  Re: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:46:09 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS, Message-ID: <9YmdneKuMsV8pbvcRVn-ug@igs.net>   Bob Ceculski wrote: < > this wouldn't happen to have been you Andrew, would it? :) > E > "An early example of the effectiveness of OpenVMS is DT came in the C > mid-nineties in Paris when Credit Lyonnais survived a fire at its G > headquarters. Its multi-site OpenVMS Cluster safely mirrored its data G > at a second site, while the UNIX folks reportedly had to run into the A > burning building to pull the most-recent backup tape cartridges . > containing their data from the tape drives." > H > http://www.enterpriseitplanet.com/storage/features/article.php/3396941     Bob,   This is old news.   L Nowadays most unix offerings wouldn't require you to run back into a burningL building to get your backup tapes....you could pick them up just outside the main entrance.   ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:50:17 -0700 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com>: Subject: Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS+ Message-ID: <cg5klp$t1e$1@news01.intel.com>    John Smith wrote:  > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > < >>this wouldn't happen to have been you Andrew, would it? :) >>E >>"An early example of the effectiveness of OpenVMS is DT came in the C >>mid-nineties in Paris when Credit Lyonnais survived a fire at its G >>headquarters. Its multi-site OpenVMS Cluster safely mirrored its data G >>at a second site, while the UNIX folks reportedly had to run into the A >>burning building to pull the most-recent backup tape cartridges . >>containing their data from the tape drives." >>H >>http://www.enterpriseitplanet.com/storage/features/article.php/3396941 >  >  >  > Bob, >  > This is old news.  [...]   @ JS, while that is true (old news), the referenced article is newG (this month) and the quote is just one sentence in article specifically D talking about OpenVMS and Disaster Tolerance.  Nevermind BC's focus,. this is press exposure for OPenVMS' strengths.  
 	Regards, Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:31:01 GMT & From: Lee Mah <lytmah@telusplanet.net>: Subject: Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS, Message-ID: <9ctVc.41027$fz2.11680@edtnps89>  9 We just had a disaster at one of our 3 sites 4 hours ago. 5 Both the site's 2 nodes and 78 shadow members dropped 9 when outside contractors killed all power to the computer 7 room during maintenance.  Fortunately the mirrored site 9 8 miles away and a third quorum site in another direction ? kept the cluster up after a minute of cluster state transition. @ I'm now in the process of recovering the dropped shadow members.     Ken Fairfield wrote:   > John Smith wrote:  >  >> Bob Ceculski wrote: >>> >>> this wouldn't happen to have been you Andrew, would it? :) >>> G >>> "An early example of the effectiveness of OpenVMS is DT came in the E >>> mid-nineties in Paris when Credit Lyonnais survived a fire at its I >>> headquarters. Its multi-site OpenVMS Cluster safely mirrored its data I >>> at a second site, while the UNIX folks reportedly had to run into the C >>> burning building to pull the most-recent backup tape cartridges 0 >>> containing their data from the tape drives." >>> J >>> http://www.enterpriseitplanet.com/storage/features/article.php/3396941 >> >> >> >> >> Bob,  >> >> This is old news. >  > [...]  > B > JS, while that is true (old news), the referenced article is newI > (this month) and the quote is just one sentence in article specifically F > talking about OpenVMS and Disaster Tolerance.  Nevermind BC's focus,0 > this is press exposure for OPenVMS' strengths. >  >     Regards, Ken   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:12:39 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: A hilarious example of a unix cluster vs. VMS+ Message-ID: <41266947.4F1EE396@comcast.net>    Lee Mah wrote: > ; > We just had a disaster at one of our 3 sites 4 hours ago. 7 > Both the site's 2 nodes and 78 shadow members dropped ; > when outside contractors killed all power to the computer 9 > room during maintenance.  Fortunately the mirrored site ; > 8 miles away and a third quorum site in another direction A > kept the cluster up after a minute of cluster state transition. B > I'm now in the process of recovering the dropped shadow members.  H Please submit your story to Sue Skonetski (susan dot skonetski at hp dot com) as an OpenVMS Pearl.    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:31:40 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>& Subject: A whopping 50 percent...  ???@ Message-ID: <05uVc.179497$wH4.11927279@twister.southeast.rr.com>  > >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/18/hpworld_users_react/ >>F >>"a whopping 50 percent of [HP-UX] customers have no plans to move to ItanicJ >>at all.  This leaves half of HP's high-end [HP-UX] customer base looking for L >>a new home either on Linux systems, which HP does sell, or - more likely -) >>on IBM and Sun Microsystems' Unix kit."   H I've seen reference to these numbers in an earlier article on E-CommerceE Times this week.  I went to the Interex press room and they said they H released no such numbers.  I repeated the process daily and got the same answer.   F I just emailed and got a reply from The Register writer.  This was hisI response, "They put them up during a presentation. Not sure exactly which J survey. Have been trying to get an official copy for days now."  I emailed him back asking which session.  J I've got the card for the press room lady in my computer case.  I'll emailL her again and see if they haven't found anything.  At the moment there is NO& proof these numbers exist or are true.   I'll keep digging.   Ken    --   Kenneth R. Farmer <><  http://www.OpenVMS.org   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:08:38 GMT 6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>* Subject: Re: A whopping 50 percent...  ???@ Message-ID: <GDuVc.179511$wH4.11930617@twister.southeast.rr.com>  A "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> wrote in message : news:05uVc.179497$wH4.11927279@twister.southeast.rr.com...@ > >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/18/hpworld_users_react/ > >>H > >>"a whopping 50 percent of [HP-UX] customers have no plans to move to > ItanicL > >>at all.  This leaves half of HP's high-end [HP-UX] customer base looking > for E > >>a new home either on Linux systems, which HP does sell, or - more  likely -+ > >>on IBM and Sun Microsystems' Unix kit."  > J > I've seen reference to these numbers in an earlier article on E-CommerceG > Times this week.  I went to the Interex press room and they said they J > released no such numbers.  I repeated the process daily and got the same	 > answer.  > H > I just emailed and got a reply from The Register writer.  This was hisK > response, "They put them up during a presentation. Not sure exactly which L > survey. Have been trying to get an official copy for days now."  I emailed  > him back asking which session. > L > I've got the card for the press room lady in my computer case.  I'll emailK > her again and see if they haven't found anything.  At the moment there is  NO( > proof these numbers exist or are true. >  > I'll keep digging.  J Spoke with Register reporter.  The people I spoke with in the press officeH were HP people.  They could have been leading me in the wrong direction.1 I'll contact Interex and see what I can find out.    Ken    --" Kenneth R. Farmer <>< 366-736-7376 http://www.OpenVMS.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:37:21 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? 0 Message-ID: <877jrukdwu.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  > "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca> writes:   > Bob Koehler wrote:  F >>    Unless the Windows kernel has something better to do for severalE >>    milliseconds.  I have not yet seen a version of Charon-VAX that - >>    I would use in a real-time application.   @ > I would not use VMS in a true real-time application because ofB > processes like SWAPPER that need to be there and need to be at aA > high priority, but I know of VMS being used in almost real-time ? > applications and I would not see any problem using CHARON-VAX E > there. If you have a real-time application and you are using VMS on = > a hardware VAX then I would see no problems at all going to 
 > CHARON-VAX.   G Not a problem, just run at 17 or greater priority. Mind, you had better # have all your pages lock in memory.   C Bigest problem with tight realtime on Vaxen was the time for a 780s H vectored interupts. A Vax is an excelent RT machine if programmed right.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:40:39 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? 0 Message-ID: <873c2ikdrc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  % Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> writes:    > Bob Koehler wrote: > Z >> In article <41242A11.9020206@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  D >>> In fairness, some wouldn't use a VAX in a real-time environment.& >>> Don't hit me, I'm not one of them.  E >>    Well even I wouldn't use a VAX in a real-time environment if it B >> was running Ultrix.  And for some real-time jobs I'd use VAXeln4 >> instead of VMS.  Design of the kernel is crucial.  C > ONe of the main reasons to purchase VMS is Colorado Support.  You @ > don't get that with a Charon VAX.  You'd have to reproduce the > problem on a real VAX.  B You don't get it anymore with a Vax or an Alpha, unless Pikes Peak# has relocated to India recently...     --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:31:43 -0400 ) From: Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> # Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? 0 Message-ID: <10ickbi1ahan013@corp.supernews.com>  I If you are not worried about support, I recommend you try the SimH   VAX  	 emulator.   G I've run it with Fedora CORE1 and CORE2 as base OS builds and it works   great.  
 Thank you,
 Andrew Robert  Systems Architect % TS&S Infrastructure Support - OpenVMS   Massachusetts Financial Services   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:09:00 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? , Message-ID: <41263E3C.2010106@tsoft-inc.com>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:  B >>Unless the Windows kernel has something better to do for severalC >>milliseconds.  I have not yet seen a version of Charon-VAX that I ( >>would use in a real-time application.  >> > F > You're not the only one to have this concern.  Stay tuned for future > CHARON-VAX announcements.  > F > [Another Shameless Plug (tm) from your "local" CHARON-VAX reseller.] >   G My understanding is that when running CHARON-VAX on an Intel box it is  Q recommended to be the sole user.  Seems that there are a bunch of OS things that   aren't required in such a case.   M If the developers were good enough to develope the emulator, it shouldn't be  N real hard for them to develop an environment solely for running the emulator. N Note that I have no idea of what parts of the underlying OS the emulator does S use.  Regardless, with such, wouldn't this then be a form of VMS on IA-32 hardware?   N I've heard many times that there is more than one way to skin a cat.  While I O don't skin cats, I think the principal is valid, and with the speed of today's  B hardware, such an implementation of VMS should be perfectly valid.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:51:29 -0700 3 From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii_googlespam@yahoo.com> 6 Subject: DEC Support then (was charon vax emulator???)0 Message-ID: <10idj0l4qcsfpa5@corp.supernews.com>   Beach Runner wrote: I > ONe of the main reasons to purchase VMS is Colorado Support.  You don't G > get that with a Charon VAX.  You'd have to reproduce the problem on a  > real VAX.   I One of the reasons to use VAXELN was the Alphretta, Georgia support group " with Alan and Sumithra and others.  J Also, there was a limit on Vaxstation 9x that limited the size of the bootH image. This was not a problem with VMS which goes through several steps.J With VAXELN one can have the entire system load the boot image from one ofI the SYS0 - SYSF directories. In the mid 90s Amistar had a 60MB image that I exceeded the limit. DEC made changes and supplied the needed ROMs for the K less than two dozen systems. Obviously they did not get a return for such a  small customer.   / Where would one get that kind of support today?    --   C.W.Holeman II) cwh5ii@Julian5Locals.com remove the fives    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:01:17 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>H Subject: Re: Does SHE know about VMS??  not according to this article :(+ Message-ID: <4126669D.6385FD6D@comcast.net>    Kenneth Farmer wrote:  > M > Which session David?  Was it an Itanium based session?  They're waiting for & > the Itanium 8.1 release in December. > N > That was mentioned in the OVMS-SIG meeting, I saw you come in late, not sure. > if you caught it but someone did mention it.  D Session 4001, the "virtual classroom" session on RVA administration.  G It actually would have been a good pre-requisite to the 2 hour hands-on H EVA lab where they had no lecture, just a hand-out. They basically said,( here it is, here's what to do, go do it.   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:09:12 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> H Subject: RE: Does SHE know about VMS??  not according to this article :(9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEEPMDKAA.tom@kednos.com>   < Shouldn't that be 8.2?  I just today received the 8.2 kit byA FedEx.  Don't know what I will do with the "Industry Standard 64" = but I think I will bring up the Alpha version on a spare box.        < -----Original Message-----; < From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net] ' < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 2:01 PM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com I < Subject: Re: Does SHE know about VMS?? not according to this article :(  <  <  < Kenneth Farmer wrote:  < > D < > Which session David?  Was it an Itanium based session?  They're 
 < waiting for ( < > the Itanium 8.1 release in December. < > B < > That was mentioned in the OVMS-SIG meeting, I saw you come in  < late, not sure0 < > if you caught it but someone did mention it. < F < Session 4001, the "virtual classroom" session on RVA administration. < I < It actually would have been a good pre-requisite to the 2 hour hands-on J < EVA lab where they had no lecture, just a hand-out. They basically said,* < here it is, here's what to do, go do it. <  < D.J.D. <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004  <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:25:02 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> M Subject: RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3DFBD5@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Barry Treahy, Jr. [mailto:Treahy@MMaz.com]=20   > Sent: August 20, 2004 10:56 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com B > Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS,=20 > and Tru64 users  >=20 > Bob Koehler wrote: >=20> > >In article <q0bbi0dab5jt1imu895kk7g8hage1807m7@4ax.com>,=20% > Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:  > > =20  > > @ > >>Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX=20 > customers then had no B > >>plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home=20 > they were happy withA > >>VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate.=20  > The same is true for! > >>many PA-RISC customers today. 
 > >>   =20 > >> > > A > >   Once upon a time HP-UX customers were happily running on=20  > 68K.  ThenE > >   HP not only introduced HP-UX on HPARC, they dropped support for @ > >   68K.  I'll note with distict interest whether they live=20
 > up to their , > >   promises re: support of VAX and Alpha. > > =20  > > B > I don't know anything about the HP-UX 68K history, but I'd be=20 > willing to=20 > > wager that when HPARC came out, it supported HP-UX faster=20 > than on a 68K=20J > system - just like VMS was faster on Alpha than VAX, when the Alpha's=20I > started releasing; That hasn't been the case with Itanic, it is only=20 C > gaining ground because of the Alphacide, time, and Moore's-Law...  >=20 >=20 > Barry  >=20 > --=20  >=20@ > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com@ > Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320@ > Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028 >                       =20      Barry,  G When the first Alpha's were released (Jensen AXP150 etc), they were not % faster than many of the bigger VAX's.   H It was only over time when the Alpha performance exceeded all of the VAX systems.  2 Take a look at the relative performance levels at:? http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:40:29 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> M Subject: RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEPGDKAA.tom@kednos.com>    < -----Original Message-----. < From: Main, Kerry [mailto:kerry.main@hp.com]( < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:25 AM < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com I < Subject: RE: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64  < users  <  <  < > -----Original Message-----5 < > From: Barry Treahy, Jr. [mailto:Treahy@MMaz.com]  " < > Sent: August 20, 2004 10:56 AM < > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com B < > Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS,  < > and Tru64 users  < >  < > Bob Koehler wrote: < > > < > >In article <q0bbi0dab5jt1imu895kk7g8hage1807m7@4ax.com>, ' < > Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:  < > >    < > > @ < > >>Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX  < > customers then had no B < > >>plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home  < > they were happy withA < > >>VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate.   < > The same is true for# < > >>many PA-RISC customers today. 
 < > >>     < > >> < > > A < > >   Once upon a time HP-UX customers were happily running on   < > 68K.  ThenG < > >   HP not only introduced HP-UX on HPARC, they dropped support for @ < > >   68K.  I'll note with distict interest whether they live  < > up to their . < > >   promises re: support of VAX and Alpha. < > >    < > > B < > I don't know anything about the HP-UX 68K history, but I'd be  < > willing to  > < > wager that when HPARC came out, it supported HP-UX faster  < > than on a 68K J < > system - just like VMS was faster on Alpha than VAX, when the Alpha's I < > started releasing; That hasn't been the case with Itanic, it is only  E < > gaining ground because of the Alphacide, time, and Moore's-Law...  < >  < > 	 < > Barry  < >  < > --   < > B < > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.comB < > Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320B < > Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028 < >                          <  <  < Barry, < I < When the first Alpha's were released (Jensen AXP150 etc), they were not ' < faster than many of the bigger VAX's.  < J < It was only over time when the Alpha performance exceeded all of the VAX
 < systems.  G Well, that is obvious, they stopped development of VAX.  It was claimed I (incorrectly, BTW) that CISC was a dead-end design and that RISC was the  J way to increase performance, seems we now have the reverse arguement beingG posited.  So now we have a second major misstep, gratuitous development H expenditures, lost market share and a sullied reputation.  Hard to put a positive spin on that.   < 4 < Take a look at the relative performance levels at:A < http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_tps.html  < 	 < Regards  <  < Kerry Main < Senior Consultant  < HP Services Canada < Voice: 613-592-4660  < Fax: 613-591-4477  < Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . < (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)  < & < "OpenVMS has always had integrity ..  < Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .." <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004  <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:35:30 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users , Message-ID: <41264472.6070608@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:    > Bill Todd wrote:  D >>"Earlier this week, an article in the Wall St Journal claimed thatC >>HP's Shane Robison had axed most of the high end R&D projects the  >>firm was working on."  >>C >>Way to go, Shane:  carrying on the tradition established with the F >>Alphacide in exemplary fashion.  Not that storage needs new products >>or anything... >>  M > Under chief technology officer Shane Robison, a former Compaq executive who I > has the ear of Ms. Fiorina, the strategy group is taking steps to focus H > invention, including creating a central pipeline to take in innovativeM > proposals from smaller companies that may want to collaborate with H-P. The H > group also has set up a hotline to which employees can phone in ideas.M > "Invention only matters if you focus on the right thing," says Mr. Robison. 6 > "It doesn't matter if it doesn't help our business."    O Excuse my lack of memory, but is this the same Compaq chief technology officer  O that had much bad to say about Alpha?  If so, how has HP been so successful in   keeping the worst of Compaq?   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:36:49 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users , Message-ID: <412660E1.2000900@tsoft-inc.com>   Nigel Barker wrote:   Q > On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:08:19 -0400, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:  >  > > >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/18/hpworld_users_react/ >>M >>"a whopping 50 percent of [HP-UX] customers have no plans to move to Itanic N >>at all.  This leaves half of HP's high-end [HP-UX] customer base looking forL >>a new home either on Linux systems, which HP does sell, or - more likely -) >>on IBM and Sun Microsystems' Unix kit."  >> > Q > Turn the clock back ten years. What the percentage of VAX customers then had no R > plans to move to Alpha? They weren't looking for a new home they were happy withQ > VAX or at least there was no compelling reason to migrate. The same is true for  > many PA-RISC customers today.  >  > -- > Nigel Barker! > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur  >   O Yeah, and some are still on those VAXs, or CHARON-VAX.  Was ther some point to  P be made, or were you just pointing out a fact?  In either case, it doesn't bode  well for the itanic.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 05:47:00 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>X Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users usersusers0 Message-ID: <87y8kaiywb.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  ' "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:   1 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message  ( > news:aOCdnfgvXKYhMbncRVn-gA@igs.net... >  > [snip] >  >>I >> H-P remains convinced that its R&D war chest is enough to shore up its L >> ailing server and storage-system product lines that hurt its results for  >> theL >> quarter that ended July 31. The focus now is on software: H-P researchersL >> are developing programs to help manage many different pieces of hardware  >> as < >> the equivalent of a single system, saving on labor costs. > N > Sounds like an OpenVMS Cluster.  Someone should call R&D and tell them they  > already have it.  N Ah, but the Melb/Monash lecture on demand system ran on Alphas, so it does not@ count. That was with video as well btw, and over 10 years ago...     --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:51:05 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: Ford and Oracle, Message-ID: <41266439.9000308@tsoft-inc.com>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:   > Rob H wrote: >  >> I found this article today.I >> My question is: what platform were they deploying Oracle Applications  J >> on and what platform is the "tried and tested" application on to which E >> they are reverting, and how is that built? Are we talking VMS for  * >> tried and tested , or something else... >> >>3 >> Ford kills 'Everest' procurement software system  >>L >> It pulled the plug on a system built around Oracle's 11i E-Business Suite >> >> >>  >> News Story by Marc L. Songini >>E >> (http://www.computerworld.com/printthis/2004/0,4814,95335,00.html)  >> >>J >> AUGUST 18, 2004 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Despite four years in production and G >> an investment of millions of dollars, Ford Motor Co. is pulling the  C >> plug on a major procurement software system built around Oracle  0 >> Corp.'s 11i E-Business Suite of applications. >>   >>C > What 'bugs' me about articles, like this, is the instant loss of  D > credibility.  For instance, they could not have been running this I > project in production for four years on 11i simply because 11i has not  I > been out for four years, so really, what was the cause of the failure?  G > Trust me, I'm not an Oracle fan, but the way this article starts and  J > ends, it appears to be placing the blame for this failure on Oracle and K > not an otherwise flawed design and/or implementation specification which  F > could also include poor choices for hardware and OS underpinnings... >  >  > Barry  >   5 Yep.  Search for the guilty.  Prosecute the innocent.   O Entering speculation mode.  Possibly the performance was an issue, and someone  N promised better performance with 11i.  When that didn't materialize, not much ? left to do but determine that the project wasn't going to work.   K I've found relational databases great for retrival.  I've found them to be  N somewhat less when being pounded upon with updates/additions.  I'd think that E any kind of purchasing system would include large numbers of updates.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:44:16 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: HP Invent wisely?, Message-ID: <9YmdneOuMsVCpbvcRVn-ug@igs.net>   David Mathog wrote: 0 > In:  http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17967; > and elsewhere HP lays out a plan to "invent wisely", that 8 > is, to only invest in R&D that will clearly contribute > to the bottom line.  > 8 > Which sounds fine unless you've ever actully worked in9 > research, any kind of research.  The only way to target < > R&D with that sort of precision is if the research subject? > is only 1-2 years away from actual production use.  Otherwise = > "what you need" and "what you'll find" are not sufficiently A > predictable.  To my mind this level of "R&D" is just "D" - it's ; > engineering an existing and well characterized technology < > to achieve a predetermined goal. That's certainly a worthy5 > thing to do if HP intends to do more than just slapl7 > HP stickers on other people's hardware.  But it's not ? > the _only_ worthy thing to do and it's insanely short sightedh= > since down the road it means the company will have produced B > (and hence control via patents) no new fundamental technologies. >e; > This policy effectively signals the end of HP as a source 7 > of research.   Research is looking into subjects _notn2 > already well characterized_ to try to understandB > them better.  Although one can guess which ways things might go,D > more often than not the results lead off in unexpected directions.7 > A successful research company will capitalize on whatu< > falls out, even if it isn't what they originally expected. > C > Finally, HP management is demonstrably inept.  Consequently, HP's ; > excecutives are unlikely to implement this new R&D policyeG > successfully.  If Carly had been at ATT back in the day doubtless she F > would have taken an axe to Bell labs and fired Shockley and the restG > because "AT&T products use tubes and all this theoretical solid stateMA > research isn't immediately applicable."  (More or less what sheo% > did at Lucent, years later, right?)n > C > Once upon a time HP had the workers and assets to be another IBM, E > unfortunately HP came up short, very short, in the executive suite. ? > As a result IBM management has less and less to fear from HP.  >t     I'll second that.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:20:55 -0500n2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: HPworld - I Survivedt+ Message-ID: <41266B37.2304EF83@comcast.net>t  H Count me among those now reclining with sore legs and blistered feet who4 survived HPworld-2004 at McCormick Place in Chicago.  F A very large vote of thanks to all who made it possible, and those whoG made it possible for me to participate. I only wish I had more to bringg
 to the table.a  G Watch for the next event in Sept 2005 in New Orleans. I'll be polishingaH up this year's presentations (changes were made on the fly) for the web,  and planning sessions to submit.  H A good possibility right now is likely to be "DCL Programming for SystemH Administrators", based partially on stuff I saw this year, but mostly onB real-life stuff I use every day, including freeware (DCL proc.'s).   Suggestions are welcome... p   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:53:43 -0400u# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP...., Message-ID: <9eCdnQI_UsM7p7vcRVn-ig@igs.net>   Andrew Harrison wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: >h< >> In article <If2dnVMWQOphQrjcRVn-gw@igs.net>, "John Smith" >> <a@nonymous.com> writes:s >> >>> Andrew Harrison wrote: >>>n >>>>>   ROTFLOL. >>>>>l >>>>8 >>>> Care to elaborate base on your experiences of using2 >>>> a current Solaris based system clustered ???? >> >>E >>    Exactly.  Guess which systems were hacked into, despite a largerG >>    time of full time patch applying admins.  Yes, I could go on, buta8 >>    why bore all the VMS folks with the same old junk. >> >r= > Thats hardly elaborating on your claims is it. All you haveu@ > done is recouched your claim without any additional supporting > data.     L You're heading into Monthy Python Argument Clinic territory Andrew, only not nearly as humourous.  K Perhaps some real examples to back your claims would be in order if only tot" educate the un-eunuch-ed among us.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 20:11:46 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>i( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP..... Message-ID: <mddisbd9wot.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  ) Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca> writes:i  N > I'm just surprised nobody's cross-posted to any of the comp.unix groups yet.N > (or cross-post to alt.folklore.computers and get the TOPS-20 people agitated > too!)a   You mean alt.sys.pdp10...t   -- tL Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:06:43 -0500o2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: ITPlanet.com: OpenVMS Gets a Case of the DT's+ Message-ID: <412667E3.82AC4BAE@comcast.net>p   Tom Linden wrote:d > > > Well I am making the presumption that there are some serious@ > businessmen (or should I say businesswomen) in the enterprise.  2 That is perhaps a bit of a brash (pre/as)sumption.   I'll stop there...   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:33:47 +0100f% From: Alan Fay <alan.fay@veritas.com>t2 Subject: RE: Legato vs VMS Backup -- Recover Speed4 Message-ID: <cg5n5v$4hq$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>    > Date: 2004-08-19 21:00:17 PST & > From: Alex (vms@iss-integration.com)1 > Subject: Legato vs VMS Backup -- Recover Speed u > Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsl > 	  > L > Are there any VMS users who benchmarked a recent Legato client (6.0.1-D or= > 6.0.1-C) restore performance against the native VMS backup?b > A > I am looking for timing estimates for a disaster recovery test.  > 	 > Thanks,> > Alex >      Alex,l  9 You may want to look at some of the performance examples -< in the NetBackup User's Guide for OpenVMS which is available from VERITAS support:-  J ftp://ftp.emea.support.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/     nbu_v5_0_vms_pdf.zip  4 Restore performance has been significantly improved.  : The only way to really test this, is to try it yourself on$ your system and compare the results.   Alan Fay VERITAS Software Corporation e Roseville Engineering    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:59:38 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)t Subject: Re: Missing Display2 Message-ID: <uSrVc.8504$mn5.2594@news.cpqcorp.net>  c In article <slrncicdaj.1mq3.thierry@MARS.Family>, Thierry Dussuet <thierry@dussuet.lugs.ch> writes:i  M :I have a VAXstation 3100/38 at home which has the switch set as a VAXserver.-M :Since some time I see such messages every 5 minutes, which fill up the audite- :log, and I'm wondering where they come from.h :r) :Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on MERKURsN :Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on MERKUR, system id: :268259 :Auditable event:          Detached process login failureo ..; :The message number means "No display found", but I have nol2 :keyboard/mouse/monitor hooked up to the computer.    A   Enable security alarms for process creations.  That should say.u  ?   I'd also ensure that DECwindows was properly disabled for theoB   particular OpenVMS VAX version -- the current mechanism involves3   DECW$IGNORE_WORKSTATION, as discussed in the FAQ.o  ?   When posting, the OpenVMS VAX and DECwindows versions and ECOV@   level -- if not current on at least the available ECOs, please%   get there -- can be useful details.n    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq/N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comT   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:18:32 +0000 (UTC)e, From: lewis@PROBE.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: Multia questionsd. Message-ID: <cg2jso$dia$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   Tim Sneddon <first-initiallastname@bsddotinfomedia.com.au> writes in article <2oivfvFara4iU1@uni-berlin.de> dated Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:26:07 +0800: >David Froble wrote:E >>> 2.  Does the MMOV audio software work on the Multia audio device?r >>>f > H >No. I've tried it with various different configs with no success. I didM >get it to appear as a device and even got MMOV to start, but when I tried toaL >do anything "sound related" MMOV$SERVER crashed with an ACCVIO. The virtual1 >address was 4, if that means anything to anyone..  D That probably means that the program was trying to access the secondI longword of a data structure for which the pointer was not initialized.  g> That's enough for me, I'll wait for a deal on an Alphastation.  I >>> 3.  What's the latest version of VMS anybody has successfully run on   >>> Multia?e >FF >I have V7.2 installed. I haven't bothered even attempting an upgrade.  L I guess if it's a standalone machine it would be a lot more work getting theJ distribution loaded on a spare disk, etc.  If it's clustered with a "real"( VMS box you simply upgrade the OS there.  L >> Buying?  I wouldn't mess with a Multia that was free.  If you're buying, K >> can't you find a nice working AlphaStation, even an EV4 would be better   >> than the Multia.T  H Practically free.  They're on Ebay for $10 right now, no bids as of last! night when I started this thread.   / >> If you're looking for a challenge, well, Ok.M >dK >I agree. The Multia was never meant to run VMS. That said though, I ported L >Wolfenstein 3D using my Multia and that ran reasonably well, and I've never >had any crashes.a  K Cool!  While I am up for challenges in general, I think I'll skip this one.   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:48:56 GMTb# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)r. Subject: OpenVMS Freeware Call For Submissions2 Message-ID: <sIrVc.8501$mn5.2871@news.cpqcorp.net>  8                       Seeking New or Updated Submissions7                        for the next HP OpenVMS Freeware 0                              Deadline 8-Nov-2004      L   Do you have or do you know of useful new tools for HP OpenVMS, or updates,K   corrections, or new versions of existing OpenVMS Freeware software tools?   K   Please mail the Collector of OpenVMS Freeware (CoOF), and pass along youreI   knowledge of these new or updated software packages -- even if you are -H   not the maintainer or the owner -- to the CoOF.  Please do not assume F   that somebody else has or will notify the CoOF about the package(s).  .   The OpenVMS Freeware submission deadline is:        8 November 2004  F   The Freeware submission information and guidelines are available at:  *     http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/freeware/  I   Please use the Freeware email address -- listed at the above website --VI   for submission-related messages and communications.  (And yes, the CoOFsI   can provide an FTP server for a kit push, can pull from an FTP server, tJ   can receive and process kits attached to MIME-encoded mail, and can alsoI   provide a snail mail address and media requirements for media-based kito   submissions.)-     Thank you!    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqsN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:47:28 -0400m# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ..., Message-ID: <E6KdnctLaKGypLvcRVn-hA@igs.net>   GreyCloud wrote: > Bob Ceculski wrote:  >W, >> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994 >pH > The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low > price?  K At HP's "We're Getting Out of The Itanium Business" clearance sale.....just-< follow the signs......it's right next to the lemonaide stand   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:57:29 +0000 (UTC)86 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...1 Message-ID: <newscache$2kgr2i$w2r1$1@news.sil.at>r  U In article <Lpidnekb_aaLu7vcRVn-hA@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:t >Bob Ceculski wrote: >', >> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994 > N >The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low price?  B A couple of weeks ago, there was a rx2600 on ebay for IIRC $1899.- and nobody was interested in...N   -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERM% Network and OpenVMS system specialiste E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:09:48 -0500c2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...+ Message-ID: <4126689C.B0C1CE9E@comcast.net>    GreyCloud wrote: >  > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > - > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994a > H > The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low > price?  # Depends on what you consider "low".-  H That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portingG classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., ande. walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class.  G E-mail Sue Skonetski (susan dot skonetski at hp dot com) for more info.    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:20:50 -0500s6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...D Message-ID: <craigberry-64CCAB.17205020082004@news.isp.giganews.com>  + In article <4126689C.B0C1CE9E@comcast.net>,b4  David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:  J > That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portingI > classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., and 0 > walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class. >   G I think 2600 is the model number of the machine (rx2600 to be exact).  n- The price I saw was $2000.  But close enough.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:49:07 -0600t" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...0 Message-ID: <y8-dnePTp8Xz4rvcRVn-gg@bresnan.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:t   > GreyCloud wrote: >  >>Bob Ceculski wrote:q >> >>, >>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994 >>H >>The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low >>price? >  > % > Depends on what you consider "low".e > J > That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portingI > classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., anda0 > walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class. >    $2600??  Are they NUTS???     Dont' these idiots get it yet??? Prices are falling... FAST!!!pH These delusional morons will just sink in the quick sand and become OIL!   -- i! ---------------------------------  The Golden Years Sux.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:43:45 GMTl% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>v4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...< Message-ID: <5VwVc.1746$LH1.1193@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>  B "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote in message > news:craigberry-64CCAB.17205020082004@news.isp.giganews.com...- > In article <4126689C.B0C1CE9E@comcast.net>, 5 > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:r >sK >> That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portinghJ >> classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., and1 >> walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class.  >> >aG > I think 2600 is the model number of the machine (rx2600 to be exact).a/ > The price I saw was $2000.  But close enough.o  7 You can now get the RX2600 without the class for $1799.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:23:55 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...* Message-ID: <4126B23B.CC74818@comcast.net>   GreyCloud wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:e >  > > GreyCloud wrote: > >u > >>Bob Ceculski wrote:n > >> > >>. > >>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994 > >>J > >>The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low
 > >>price? > >0 > >:' > > Depends on what you consider "low".s > >sL > > That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portingK > > classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., andw2 > > walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class. > >e >  > $2600??  Are they NUTS???  > " > Dont' these idiots get it yet??? > Prices are falling... FAST!!!VJ > These delusional morons will just sink in the quick sand and become OIL!  B Remember: Intel's got 10 years worth of losses to make up - Itanic( prices won't be "falling" any time soon.   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:52:16 GMT % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>y4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...< Message-ID: <ANyVc.5838$FV3.1237@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>  0 "GreyCloud" <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message * news:y8-dnePTp8Xz4rvcRVn-gg@bresnan.com... >o >c > David J Dachtera wrote:  >s >> GreyCloud wrote:B >> >>>Bob Ceculski wrote: >>>  >>>u- >>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994. >>> I >>>The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low 	 >>>price?i >> >>& >> Depends on what you consider "low". >>K >> That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portingmJ >> classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., and1 >> walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class.? >> >c > $2600??  Are they NUTS???  > " > Dont' these idiots get it yet??? > Prices are falling... FAST!!! J > These delusional morons will just sink in the quick sand and become OIL!  E What world are you living in??  The HP RX2600 is an enterprise class aM machine, not some crappy no-name piece of junk.  It has things like hot swap iL power supplies, hot swap fans etc.  I just went to www.dell.com to see what I a similar Dell machine would cost.  A Dell PowerEdge 2650 with dual Xeon s< CPUs, 4GB RAM and dual 36GB disks will run you about $5,892.  I A Dell PowerEdge 3250 with dual 1.5Ghz Itaniums, 8GB RAM, 72GB disk will   cost you $23,815.i   $2,600 for an RX2600 is a deal.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:28:41 -06007" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...0 Message-ID: <9u2dnfFSaJeeUrvcRVn-oQ@bresnan.com>   John Vottero wrote:e  2 > "GreyCloud" <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message , > news:y8-dnePTp8Xz4rvcRVn-gg@bresnan.com... >  >> >>David J Dachtera wrote:0 >> >> >>>GreyCloud wrote:y >>>@ >>>m >>>>Bob Ceculski wrote:o >>>> >>>> >>>>. >>>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994 >>>>J >>>>The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low
 >>>>price? >>>g >>>-& >>>Depends on what you consider "low". >>>aK >>>That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the porting J >>>classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., and1 >>>walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class.r >>>  >> >>$2600??  Are they NUTS???m >>" >>Dont' these idiots get it yet??? >>Prices are falling... FAST!!! J >>These delusional morons will just sink in the quick sand and become OIL! >  > ! > What world are you living in?? h   In the world of reality.  ' > The HP RX2600 is an enterprise class rO > machine, not some crappy no-name piece of junk.  It has things like hot swap  N > power supplies, hot swap fans etc.  I just went to www.dell.com to see what K > a similar Dell machine would cost.  A Dell PowerEdge 2650 with dual Xeon l> > CPUs, 4GB RAM and dual 36GB disks will run you about $5,892. > K > A Dell PowerEdge 3250 with dual 1.5Ghz Itaniums, 8GB RAM, 72GB disk will r > cost you $23,815.  > ! > $2,600 for an RX2600 is a deal.' >     * But that price can come lower and it will.     --  ! ---------------------------------P The Golden Years Sux.t   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Aug 2004 00:10:12 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...3 Message-ID: <tqqmk1PVnHab@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  U In article <y8-dnePTp8Xz4rvcRVn-gg@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:r >  >  > David J Dachtera wrote:i >  >> GreyCloud wrote:w >> i >>>Bob Ceculski wrote: >>>  >>>o- >>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994  >>> I >>>The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a lowh	 >>>price?t >> a >> r& >> Depends on what you consider "low". >>  K >> That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the portingpJ >> classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., and1 >> walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class.o >> h >  > $2600??  Are they NUTS???  > " > Dont' these idiots get it yet??? > Prices are falling... FAST!!!:  " Have you seen an RX2600 up close ?  ? Do you _really_ know of a comparable computer for much cheaper,d) including quality of construction, etc. ?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:31:46 -0500a2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>2 Subject: OVMS SIG, Hobbyist News from HPworld-2004+ Message-ID: <41266DC2.ACD5257F@comcast.net>s  F There were some announcements at HPworld-2004 that I think folks might find interesting:-   New OVMS SIG ChairF Chairmanship of the OVMS SIG has changed. The new chair is Bill ThomasH of Sungard, in suburban Chicago. More info. will likely follow. If I getG it before it appears here, I'll post it. I'll have to look and see if Ig@ have his e-mail address. If I do, I will not post it without hisH permission - write me privately when appropriate (how to demung the from or reply-to should be obvious).i   OVMS/Hobby for IA64 B The question was asked multiple times about hobbyist licensing forG OVMS-I64. The answers are apparently pending, based on info. given at a<@ couple of sessions, including the "Experts Panel", (aka "OpenVMS= Engineering Panel"). This is being looked at and news will bedF forthcoming. Again, if it comes my way before I see it here, I'll post it.   G I do not know how the change in the OVMS chair will effect the existingtH hobbyist licensing infrastructure. I intend to offer my services to help= administrate the systems; as yet, I have not been approached.c   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:50:48 -0700-+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>   Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt' Message-ID: <412639F8.5040906@MMaz.com>    David Froble wrote:s  F > I have a strange dislike of 'wasting' a 'real' system like VMS on a I > user interface.  When I think about it, it seems strange.  What better  G > for a user interface than the best system available?  Guess it comes mG > from the time when the best user interface was a TTY.  At least that r > beat punched cards.n  C I couldn't agree wit you more, but you've just opened the door for oH another flame war from VMS purist that cannot accept that VMS has been, I and continues to be, an awesome back-end and back-bone to a company, but MI using it to drive desktops (outside of character cell terminal sessions)  < is a lost cause and a waste of valuable system resources....     Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 19:24:40 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0408201824.1701176e@posting.google.com>w  X VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A36A14.C8ACC269@SendSpamHere.ORG>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0408191753.20cf9fc4@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:[ > >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A3695E.CC43E1CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>.../r > >> In article <b096a4ee.0408190543.722e672@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: [...]c [...]5 > >> >VAXMAN: default = DEC  > >> > > >> >% > >> >So unless you say otherwise...!  > >> f > >> I say!e > >  > >  O-kay!S >  > Typical confrontational NYer.I   O-kay is confrontational?   K > *You* said you wanted a "time" in your prompt.  If it's not on a terminaly6 > and it's not on a DECterm then where the hell is it?   On a SmarTerm window.e   >  > -- 0> > http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security? >                       solutions that others only claim to be.5 > -- s. > Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:N >   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product!   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Aug 2004 22:41:54 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0408202141.319a516a@posting.google.com>t  \ David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message news:<41262D8F.2040602@tsoft-inc.com>... > Alan E. Feldman wrote: >  >  [...]sJ > > using telnet. At my current job I rarely use VT terminals. I currentlyG > > open multiple SmarTerm sessions in multiple SmarTerm windows. I caneG > > switch among sessions with Ctrl-Tab (or Alt-W then select a sessioneG > > from a list, all of which can be done without the stupid mouse) andhJ > > among windows with Alt-Tab or Windows-Tab. (I have 35 MicroVAX systems > > on line to tend to.) > > J > > But I don't like the SmarTerm FTP. In fact I think it stinks. In fact,0 > > for FTP I open a DOS window and use its FTP! > S > Interesting comment on SmarTerm's FTP.  I've used it, and normally like the drag  R > and drop interface.  I've had problems transfering large files where it appears I > to complete transfering, but doesn't complete the transaction, and the o? > destination file isn't usable.  What don't you like about it?P  F Hmmm. It's been a while since I tried SmarTerm's FTP. So give me a few4 minutes to re-familiarize myself with. Hold on . . .   [WARNING! Rant alert!]   OK. Starts in stupid directory.l  @ Only 3 lines of command output. Way too little. A definite PITA.  6 Not that excited about drag and drop. Hate the mouse.   B When I open the Properties menu, I choose Text or Binary. I alwaysF worry that maybe it didn't take and I have to drop the menu again justF to be sure the check is on the right mode. Then I still worry. There'sD an auto mode? Yes, I know. But I was told it doesn't work that well.? I'd rather just do it right the first time. If I'm in a commandeD window, I just type ASCII or BIN and I'm done with it. Alert! I justF noticed a text/binary/auto indicator buttons. OK, mode confirmation isD not too hard, though I prefer words to visual indicators like these. And I still worry.  D I have to keep moving the focus around the screen via Tab. A pain in2 the butt. No, I don't like using the stupid mouse.     SmarTerm FTP Command mode:   No command recall.    E Dull gray background in command output window provides poor contrast.mC And it has yucky typography. Not enough vertical whitespace and thesC times look more like separate columns of numbers than actual times.  Too difficult to read. Yuck.  E And what's the point of the separate input window? Just how does that A make it better than a regular command window? And without commandu recall!n    D I find it easier to use DOS FTP. I just type simple commands and hitF Return. No skipping among fields every time I want to do something. NoA spasmodic Windows menus to deal with. And the GUI for looking for C files? I usually prepare on each system if necessary before runningtD FTP. Yeah, it's a bit of typing for long paths/directories/whatevers@ at the ftp> prompt, but it's mostly typing letters, which is the? easiest type of typing. So I still find it much easier than the A SmarTerm FTP GUI. If needed, I do use Windows Explorer to prepare.E things on the PC side. Or I'll use DOS commands to get to the desiredo> directory before starting FTP. Or I'll move the file after theF transfer outside of FTP. The Windows Explorer "file system browser" isF much better than the SmarTerm FTP version. If I liked using the mouse,D maybe it would be okay except for the tiny three-line command outputE window.  Sometimes with DOS FTP I need to use its help, which is easyp to use.a  F OK, if I happen to be in a drag and drop mood, I might use it. But DOS@ FTP is not that big a deal to use. And SmarTerm FTP's three-lineA command output window is way too small. I find it a ROYAL PITA to E scroll it to see the output. And it's claustrophobic. Why not just dorD it all in a regular command window? No pussy footing around. No lame; file system browsers. Just do it! Simple, clean, efficient.   D In fact, this tiny-window syndrome is one of my all-time biggest petD peeves about the Windows user interface. Lots of times in Windows weA have windows that are too small.  They should at least make theseCC stupid Open, Save As, and any similar "file system browser windows"h@ maximizable. Why am I not allowed to see more of the file systemD without having to scroll endlessly? And click endlessly. Just put itA all up and let me read it like a human being. Sheeeeeesh!  If you F bought a book, but you couldn't read it without looking through a maskE that has a 1"x3" decoder window, would you not be rather upset? Well,tC the Windows people say, "You can scroll!" "You can move the mask asrF you read!" Yeah, I can swim across the East River, too. But I'd rather take the subway.  A And an extra comment about MS Access (97). The one time I used itgF regularly I was making reports. And it always showed me only about 95%D of each page. The last column would either be off the edge or mostlyB off the edge of the window. And if you tried scrolling to see thatD last missing bit, you would not be able to see most of the page. WHYD FOR GOD'S SAKE? Is this a big technical challenge? Making a page fit in a window?  E My theory is that the Windows programmers, marketers, or whoever, arepF trying to not confuse the user with huge amount of stuff on the screenB (but this doesn't explain Access type stupidities). Fine, but theyD could at least give us a maximize button. We've got the big monitors% -- which have lots of screen. Use it!n     t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:59:24 -0400n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>, Subject: Re: Total Eclipse...was Re: HP Away( Message-ID: <41263BFC.402@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:d   > Fabio Cardoso wrote: >  >>Clicke >>@ >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/17/sun_hpaway_phasethree/ >> >>' >>HP's Unix base offered Opteron carrot  >>A >>"HP World Sun Microsystems has started Phase III of its HP Away B >>program for shifting customers off the Tru64 and HP-UX operating >>systems and onto Solaris.i >>G >>This time round Sun has centered its attack on a new fleet of Opterone? >>servers, which were finally delivered in July, instead of its G >>traditional UltraSPARC-based gear. As in the past, Sun offers up freefD >>consulting services to HP customers to demonstrate how much a moveF >>from Tru64 or HP-UX will cost and how well applications will performG >>on Solaris. Over the past year, Sun has pulled 150 customers from HP,d) >>resulting in close to $200m in revenue.  >>H >>"We were focused on moving customers from RISC to RISC before, but nowH >>that we have these Opteron systems, we decided to offer a move from HPB >>RISC platforms to x86 as well," said Larry Singer, Sun's head of >>global market strategies.  >>D >>One positive with the new Opteron program is that HP customers areA >>being given a path from traditionally more expensive Alpha- anda/ >>PA-RISC-based servers to lower-cost x86 gear.. >> >>^c >>) >>>------- HP: Look at this paragraph !!!  >>>n >>G >>Sun offers workstations, a two processor box and a four processor box C >>based on AMD's x86-64-bit Opteron chip. Sun is familiar with thislG >>shift from RISC to x86, as it has seen a number of its key customers, A >>particularly those in the financial services markets, move fromo& >>Solaris/SPARC kit to Linux on Intel. >>C >>These days, however, Sun's renewed interest in Solaris x86 has itiD >>asking HP's customer base to make an easier Unix to Unix shift andE >>just replace the processor underneath the OS. But with only up to a E >>four-processor Opteron system available, Sun won't be able to temptdH >>HP's higher-end Unix customers to make this move. In addition, Sun hasG >>yet to complete a 64-bit version of Solaris for Opteron. HP customersnH >>would need to be running 32-bit software or wait until December to get >>the 64-bit OS. >>C >>Sun, of course, started this HP Away program to attract Alpha andlE >>PA-RISC customers that are being forced to move onto Intel's 64-bitsB >>Itanium processor, as HP pulls out of the processor-making game. >>(...)" >> >  > M > So HP has their own 'Total Eclipse' program to woo Sun whoreshipers away ton > HP.o > > > From http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/archives/SKHPCV11N33.pdf > N > "Sun worshippers who want to reduce their IT TCO, exploit the lower cost andL > higher performance of industry standard systems, enjoy the freedom of openE > source computing, become more agile and adaptive, and take the nextcN > evolutionary step in the datacenter may find that HP and Intel outshine Sun.J > The Total Eclipse program offers Sun to HP migration assistance servicesJ > with a proof of concept offer valued at up to $50K USD as well as systemK > trade in choices to HP industry standard hardware and Linux, Windows, andyK > HP-UX OS choices. The offer includes the use of a proof of concept system 7 > for the duration of the project at no charge to you."s > H > If Sr. Shannon's article is correct, I note the conspicuous absence of > OpenVMS in the offer.  > N > Seems to me that HP is offering Solaris users to trade from one sow's ear to8 > another, or worse. How is that beneficial to the user? >  >  >   P Agreed.  I was going to point out that they are talking Unix to Unix/Linux, but H it seems that HP just cannot say one sentence without uttering the word I 'windows'.  With that in there, the ommission of VMS becomes significant.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roada Vanderbilt, PA  15486t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:45:23 +0100o- From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>eS Subject: Re: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... 8 Message-ID: <9ndci09n98tu9e6jjka674ka6vb06ivufi@4ax.com>  K On 20 Aug 2004 12:16:32 -0500, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP  (Simon Clubley) wrote:  K >As for fork(), my main interest for it's presence in VMS is to aid Unix tos
 >VMS porting.:  J Someone has supplied an example of servicing message requests.  This couldK be likened to threading.  Another "typical" use of fork is fork/exec.  ThisQL does little more than create a new process to exec the chosen shell command.4 In VMS terms, SPAWN might be the nearest equivalent.  H These two examples are so far apart I don't think you can come up with aL one-size-fits-all answer.  You must examine the context of each fork call to* work out the most effective answer on VMS.  I There is a vfork() call.  I'm not familiar enough with these functions to # tell you much more than to rtfm ;-)a   -- j' The future isn't what it used to be... o   Mail john rather than nospam...    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:10:32 -0400 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> S Subject: RE: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... : Message-ID: <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDIEGIFIAA.dallen@nist.gov>   > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Clubley-7 > [mailto:clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP]i' > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 1:17 PMm > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComiJ > Subject: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by > HP.... >v >b; > In article <412614D8.9050404@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froblet > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:. > >oE > > Ok, I'll ask some possible stupid questions.  I've never used anyt > brand of Unixo2 > > so I'm not aware of Unix programing practices. > > J > > I cannot imagine an OS without ASTs or something similar.  Timers, I/O4 > > completion, and such, how are such done on Unix? > >u >tL > The traditional method is to use select(). Unlike on VMS, select() on UnixI > works on a wide range of device types; which is yet another Unix to VMS- > porting issue. >-  P Ah yes - select(). A lovely substitute for AST's (btw - it only works on objectsO accessed through file descriptors - AST's are applicable to far more situationsg in VMS):  > 1) Initialize 3 bit masks for the file descriptors of interest 2) call select()E 3) check status of select to see if I/O is possible or timer went offn) 4) If timer do background work and goto 1hP 5) Else iteratively loop through bit masks to see which fd's need processing andO if a bit is set do the I/O. For reads select() only tells you data is present -<N nothing is actually read. For writes it simply says a write is possible. SinceM writes complete "immediately" there's no I/O completion event to be serviced.  6) Do background work@	 7) Goto 1t  I SO much cleaner and easier to code than an AST driven model with a truelyo asynchronous I/O system - NOT!  O As far as porting goes I usually try to rewrite the select() logic (if it's notoP too convoluted) using AST's. This often results in a performance gain if the I/OK events are truely asynchronous in nature and can be overlapped. It's almost N never a performance loss. Perhaps in todays Eunuchs with threads, interprocessM shared memory, and interprocess events you can cobble up AST like logic using.I multiple processes/threads but it's surely going to be uglier than simple5O single-process AST code under VMS (or Windows for that matter). Just my opiniony
 of course ;-)t   Dans  L > As for fork(), my main interest for it's presence in VMS is to aid Unix to > VMS porting. >o > Simon. >e > --= > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP ? > SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of mostj > disliked companies >  >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:54:14 -0500q2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>Y Subject: Re: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... HP...a+ Message-ID: <412664F6.78497FC1@comcast.net>s   John Laird wrote:  > M > On 20 Aug 2004 12:16:32 -0500, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFPa > (Simon Clubley) wrote: > M > >As for fork(), my main interest for it's presence in VMS is to aid Unix tot > >VMS porting.A > L > Someone has supplied an example of servicing message requests.  This couldM > be likened to threading.  Another "typical" use of fork is fork/exec.  ThistN > does little more than create a new process to exec the chosen shell command.6 > In VMS terms, SPAWN might be the nearest equivalent.  * Perhaps LIB$SPAWN might be closer still...   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 22:58:02 +0200e. From: Frank Themann <frankthemann@T-Online.de>$ Subject: Re: VAX Instruction Timings* Message-ID: <412665DA.CF08EDF@T-Online.de>   Dave wrote:e > G > Has anybody experience in obtaining the execution timings for the VAXe% > instruction set, any model will do?-  F Timings would be very different, depending on the CPU model. The VAXenA with cache are much faster, as long as they have a cache hit. The-@ instruction fetches are also different, depending on the addressF alignment in memory, and, the addressing mode of the instruction. KeepD in mind that the VAX is (mainly) a CISC machine with variable-length, instructions, and it doesnt waste memory...   Frankc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:12:40 -0400o, From: "Phill Davies" <binary@totalnetnh.net>( Subject: Re: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha?, Message-ID: <xarVc.38$rc1.1223@news.abs.net>  E You can get a copy of OpenVMS Alpha as well as the licenses to run it L (hobbyist only, non-commercial) for nearly free through the hobbyist programK run by Montagar software. I believe hobbyist.montagar.com or something likea that.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:29:14 -0700d# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha?9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEPFDKAA.tom@kednos.com>s  A We also participate in the Hobbyist program for the PL/I compiler ; and we have a link to montagar from our site www.kednos.comh   < -----Original Message-----3 < From: Phill Davies [mailto:binary@totalnetnh.net]I( < Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 11:13 AM < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com * < Subject: Re: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha? <  < G < You can get a copy of OpenVMS Alpha as well as the licenses to run itt> < (hobbyist only, non-commercial) for nearly free through the  < hobbyist program? < run by Montagar software. I believe hobbyist.montagar.com or   < something like < that.r <  <  < ---o( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A < Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004> <  ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:52:26 -0500f2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>( Subject: Re: Where to get OpenVMS Alpha?+ Message-ID: <4126648A.8A08BA8D@comcast.net>n   Phill Davies wrote:p > G > You can get a copy of OpenVMS Alpha as well as the licenses to run itMN > (hobbyist only, non-commercial) for nearly free through the hobbyist programM > run by Montagar software. I believe hobbyist.montagar.com or something like  > that.k  # Try http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/    D.J.D.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.462 ************************