1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 23 Aug 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 466       Contents:& ## downloadable tutorial of OpenVMS ##! Re: A whopping 50 percent...  ???  Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator??? RE: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator??? Re: charon vax emulator???D Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users Re: HPworld - I Survived Re: HPworld - I Survived RE: HPworld - I Survived Re: If OVMS is killed by HP....  Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... 8 Re: Installing OpenVMS Alpha on PWS 600au without CD-ROM8 Re: Installing OpenVMS Alpha on PWS 600au without CD-ROM8 Re: Installing OpenVMS Alpha on PWS 600au without CD-ROM+ Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ... + Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt  Re: Re, Re : set prompt @ Re: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed- V7.3-2 upgrade DECwindows problem encountered 1 What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF) 5 Re: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF) 5 Re: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF) 5 Re: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2004 22:44:32 -07002 From: mskumar_2k1@rediffmail.com (M.Senthil Kumar)/ Subject: ## downloadable tutorial of OpenVMS ## = Message-ID: <d6823ffb.0408222144.25ba9853@posting.google.com>   	 hai all.. C  i'm newbe to OpemVMS. I want the basic things about openVMS. Where , can i find the donloadable tutorial for this   M. senthil kumar   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:52:20 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>* Subject: Re: A whopping 50 percent...  ???, Message-ID: <41295BE4.1080207@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:    > David Froble wrote:  >  >>Ray wrote: >> >>G >>>Back in the Digital days, when the Digital UNIX boys went calling on A >>>the VMS customers telling them that VMS was dead, UNIX was the @ >>>future, and you need to get off VMS and onto UNIX, I rememberD >>>hearing a statistic that said out of every six VMS customers thatG >>>switched, only *one* switched to Digital UNIX. As UNIX's go, Digital C >>>UNIX wasn't bad, <sarcasm>so perhaps there were other factors at  >>>work?</sarcasm> >>> B >>>Given this past behavior, 50% retention seems quite optimistic. >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> F >>I've never understood expanding your customer base at the expense ofC >>another segment of YOUR OWN COMPANY.  Then again, I've read about < >>significant antagonism between VMS and Unix people at DEC.E >>Regardless, at some level management should have realized that they > >>were falling on their own sword and put a firm stop to such. >>E >>Not quite the same as the HP issue.  It's not a different OS on the 
 >>same HW,# >>it's the same OS on different HW.  >> >  > J > Cannibalizing your own customer base makes some sense rather than losing% > your customer base to a competitor.     L I'd suggest that if a customer was going to leave VMS, then pitching a Unix ; system isn't really "Cannibalizing your own customer base".   7 Cannibalizing your own customer base never makes sense.     F > The problem with Digital/Compaq/HP's approach in suggesting that VMSI > customers move to unix, Windows, or Linux is that none of these options M > provide as high a profit margin to the vendor nor do they necessarily offer L > a better overall value proposition (security, stability, scalability, ease; > of programming, operating costs, etc...) to the customer.  > J > I have never seen IBM go out of its way to try and convince one of theirM > MVS/OS390/ZoS customers that unix/windows/linux is what the customer should I > move to. IBM simply states that they can offer these options and if the K > customer so decides to lean that way IBM can help - Period. Now if Sun or L > some other vendor comes along to try and poach that IBM customer to a unixD > or other non-IBM environment, IBM fights tooth-and-nail to either:F > a) keep the mainframe customer a mainframe customer (preferably), orJ > b) if a) is a lost cause, IBM will offer an IBM-based unix/Windows/linux
 > solution    " Yep, that's how it should be done.    I > But IBM does not go out of the way to slag its own flagship product has  > Digital/Compaq/HP .      Sadly.     Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:48:02 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? + Message-ID: <4128DC52.ECB69759@comcast.net>    "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----3 > > From: David Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com] ! > > Sent: August 20, 2004 2:09 PM  > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ' > > Subject: Re: charon vax emulator???  > >  >  > [..snip..] > @ > > My understanding is that when running CHARON-VAX on an Intel
 > > box it is < > > recommended to be the sole user.  Seems that there are a > > bunch of OS things that # > > aren't required in such a case.  > >  >  > Dave - > H > My biggest concern when I hear Cust's considering Charon-VAX (or otherH > emulators) on x86 boxes for even semi-mission critical environments isA > the monthly security/virus patches as recommended by Microsoft.  > H > While these typically require system reboots, the biggest issue is notF > the reboot time (bad enough though), but rather the time required toF > qualify these monthly (and some semi-monthly) patches before loadingI > them into production i.e. most companies with semi-mission critical and H > higher type stuff need to certify/test any patches before loading them > into production. > D > Customers running on VAX have not had to worry about this and theyH > should fully understand what it is they are getting into before making > the jump.  > H > Note - this has nothing to do with CHARON-VAX or any other emulator on& > x86, but rather the entire solution.  H ...which is why I'd prefer to see Charon-VAX run as a stand-alone o.s. - no underlying o.s.  H Mind you, I've not the first clue how to accomplish that - it just seems* like how it should have been from day one.  H Then again, perhaps that sounds too much like VMS on native IA32, and weG can't have *THAT*, now, can we? (It would likely be an Itanic killer in H the short term: a secure, stable o.s. on a ubiquitous hardware platform,A albeit 32-bit, would temporarily eliminate the need for "industry > standard" VMS (Exactly which standards body(-ies) issued thoseH specifications that people call "industry standard", anyway? Hey! I justD figured it out! There's a "men-in-black"-like organization out there? calling the shots: The MISDO: Microsoft International Standards G Dictation Organization!). Then, after the existing 32-bit platform base G has been taken over, the need for scalability would again demand 64-bit B capability, and the port to x86-64 would be the next logical step.# Itanic would be a herring by then.)    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:51:17 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? . Message-ID: <4128C0F5.14299.90F0C15@localhost>  - On 22 Aug 2004 at 11:39, Andrew Robert wrote: H > I agree that running a VAX emulator on a Microsoft box is risky due to' > trojans, virii, security issues, etc.  > * > That is why I would recommend you don't.  2 Unless, of course, you read the Application Notes:  ! ftp://chvx-public:charon@ftp.sri- 3 gva.ch/Documentation/Application%20notes/AN-035.pdf   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:43:25 +0200 + From: Wilm Boerhout <w3.boerhout@planet.nl> # Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? 5 Message-ID: <4128f79b$0$1890$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl>    David J Dachtera wrote:   H >>My biggest concern when I hear Cust's considering Charon-VAX (or otherH >>emulators) on x86 boxes for even semi-mission critical environments isA >>the monthly security/virus patches as recommended by Microsoft.   G Please note that a Windows system is only vulnerable when connected to  I an (external) network. When it's never connected via its TCPIP stack, it  H is not prone to attacks. For stability of the solution, there is a list ? of Windows features and services that may be disabled, because  G Charon-VAX does not need them. windows components are remakably stable  0 when they are not used or, preferably, disabled.  I Charon-VAX on Windows as a solution does not need the Windows host to be  E connected to the network at all. Charon-VAX maps the VAX SGEC to the  G underlying Ethernet-device. The only TCP-IP stack that runs is the VMS  F TCPIP stack (UCX flavor or Multinet or what have you.) That stack has - vulnerabilities that we've come to accept :-)   C So, YMMV, but a Windows-security-patch-free and Windows-virus-free   solution may be configured.   
 Wilm Boerhout  Zwolle, The Netherlands    wilmOLD@PAINTboerhout.nl2    (remove OLD PAINT from this address before use)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:43:10 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> # Subject: RE: charon vax emulator??? R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3DFC1E@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----7 > From: Wilm Boerhout [mailto:w3.boerhout@planet.nl]=20  > Sent: August 22, 2004 3:43 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com % > Subject: Re: charon vax emulator???  >=20   [...snip ..]   >=20B > Charon-VAX on Windows as a solution does not need the Windows=20 > host to be=20 I > connected to the network at all. Charon-VAX maps the VAX SGEC to the=20 @ > underlying Ethernet-device. The only TCP-IP stack that runs=20 > is the VMS=20 J > TCPIP stack (UCX flavor or Multinet or what have you.) That stack has=20/ > vulnerabilities that we've come to accept :-)  >=20G > So, YMMV, but a Windows-security-patch-free and Windows-virus-free=20  > solution may be configured.  >=20   Wilm,    Thx for the additional info.=20   H One additional question - can I assume from this recommended config thatE the Customer is not using Windows based backups, but rather VMS based  backups?=20   C One typical reason quoted for doing the Charon (or any emulator) on F Windows is for large Windows shops that want to include this system asB part of their normal Windows based backup strategy. This of course+ assumes network connectivity to the server.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:37:17 -0400 ) From: Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com> # Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? 0 Message-ID: <10ii4ej5kjafm0c@corp.supernews.com>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 Hash: SHA1    9 Please note that Stan Quayle is a reseller of Charon-VAX.   F It behooves him to talk up that solution to the exclusion of all else.             -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- ! Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) B Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org  @ iD8DBQFBKRINtvFd07fNC/kRAgRZAJ4wD7anH/nMCJ13QsVgByouPKp3XQCgyas+ NcRwlze/scJ9/bmDIUv7hLw= =iXIr  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:18:38 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? , Message-ID: <412953FE.1010708@tsoft-inc.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:   >>-----Original Message-----2 >>From: David Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com]  >>Sent: August 20, 2004 2:09 PM  >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com % >>Subject: Re: charon vax emulator???  >> >> >  > [..snip..] >  > ? >>My understanding is that when running CHARON-VAX on an Intel   >>box it is ; >>recommended to be the sole user.  Seems that there are a   >>bunch of OS things that ! >>aren't required in such a case.  >> >> >  > Dave - > H > My biggest concern when I hear Cust's considering Charon-VAX (or otherH > emulators) on x86 boxes for even semi-mission critical environments isA > the monthly security/virus patches as recommended by Microsoft.  > H > While these typically require system reboots, the biggest issue is notF > the reboot time (bad enough though), but rather the time required toF > qualify these monthly (and some semi-monthly) patches before loadingI > them into production i.e. most companies with semi-mission critical and H > higher type stuff need to certify/test any patches before loading them > into production. > D > Customers running on VAX have not had to worry about this and theyH > should fully understand what it is they are getting into before making > the jump.  > H > Note - this has nothing to do with CHARON-VAX or any other emulator on& > x86, but rather the entire solution.  D Windoz is not the only underlying OS, even on x86, as far as I know.  Q In a recent post I mentioned the possibility of software to act as an underlying  P OS, solely for the purpose of running CHARON-VAX.  The more I think about this, E the more it seems to be another method of having VMS on x86 hardware.   M Another post from a CHARON-VAX reseller mentions that a typical installation  O would have at least two (2) processors.  This isn't an everyday config.  Seems  Q to me that that's one more example of why VMS on any old affordable x86 platform   isn't very realistic.   J Another point is that I just don't trust Intel as a CPU vendor.  An early N example of their indifference to an error in, I believe, 386 processors tells O you how they feel about such things before user outrage led them to grudgingly  Q replace the defective CPUs.  Myself, I don't think a leapord changes it's spots,  L just hides them.  So now when there is a defect, they call it an erratta or , something such.  See, no defects.  Bullshit!  M When DEC had a similar issue, they jumped on it and treated is as a critical  7 issue.  One instance was 11/750 floating point problem.   O When you say mission critical, I'm not yet ready to think CHARON-VAX on Intel.  E Doesn't mean I'm right.  Unfortunately, the option list is shrinking.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:28:18 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com># Subject: Re: charon vax emulator??? , Message-ID: <41295642.1010308@tsoft-inc.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:   J > ...which is why I'd prefer to see Charon-VAX run as a stand-alone o.s. - > no underlying o.s. > J > Mind you, I've not the first clue how to accomplish that - it just seems, > like how it should have been from day one.    O That might be very untrivial.  I'm guessing (could be way offbase) that device  R drivers and such of the underlying OS are used.  Getting into serious stuff there.    C > Then again, perhaps that sounds too much like VMS on native IA32,      Yes it does.   > and we! > can't have *THAT*, now, can we?     P Yes we can.  Don't know what the CHARON-VAX people are up to.  They might think M running on top of windoz is fine.  (See Wilm Boerhout's post about disabling  I unneeded services.)  But they might get the idea of including the entire  L package, ie; not using another OS.  Note that their expertize appears to be I hardware emulation, not OS development.  They might not want to go there.   ) > (It would likely be an Itanic killer in J > the short term: a secure, stable o.s. on a ubiquitous hardware platform,C > albeit 32-bit, would temporarily eliminate the need for "industry @ > standard" VMS (Exactly which standards body(-ies) issued thoseJ > specifications that people call "industry standard", anyway? Hey! I justF > figured it out! There's a "men-in-black"-like organization out thereA > calling the shots: The MISDO: Microsoft International Standards I > Dictation Organization!). Then, after the existing 32-bit platform base I > has been taken over, the need for scalability would again demand 64-bit D > capability, and the port to x86-64 would be the next logical step.% > Itanic would be a herring by then.)  >  > D.J.D. >     Q A stand-alone VAX emulation on Opteron, now that would make the times we live in   more interesting.  :-)     Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:44:00 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>M Subject: Re: Figures on Itanic migration plans by HP-UX, VMS, and Tru64 users , Message-ID: <412959F0.6030703@tsoft-inc.com>   Tom Linden wrote:     M > Of course the clock rate on VAX could have been increased as much as Alpha, N > they just gave up on it, and yes it could also have been extended to 64 bit.H > A VAX clock rate of half as much as Alpha would probably give the same > performance.   Had to read that 3 times.   B That's a pretty bold statement.  What can you offer to back it up?  Q Yes, they gave up on it.  Gave up on Alpha too.  What they need to give up on is   EPIC.   P A 64 bit VAX would take more time thinking about than I'm willing to commit to. K   It's more than just memory addresses.  Can't quickly say just what's all  H involved.  There are those who could.  I'll leave that question to them.  O As for performance, while I agree with you that many VAX instructions required  N multiple Alpha instructions to accomplish the same task, the statement I made & was about clock rate, not performance.  Q Without reasonable proof otherwise, I'll continue to believe that a CPU designed  O   and implemented with a primary goal of pushing the clock rate should be able  P to do that better than a VAX.  While there are workarounds, the VAX instruction L set presented problems to pipelining and such.  I have no clue as to how it ' could adapt to Out-Of-Order processing.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:00:11 GMT , From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net>! Subject: Re: HPworld - I Survived - Message-ID: <uP7Wc.38912$Fg5.21712@attbi_s53>   K There were brochures on this @ Hp World.  Gotta buy an Alpha ES or GS to be L eligible for the <1K for a VMS capable rx2600 machine.  We're about to order: 3 DS15s and I'll ask if 3 DS boxes = 1 ES.  What the heck.   Dave...   . "Rusty" <wilmesr@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:f0d7bf28.0408220616.36fc8928@posting.google.com... E > At one of the VMS sessions they mentioned a promotion for an RX2600  > series w/ VMS for $900.  > % > I can't find any mention at hp.com.  >  > Anyone have any info on this?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:03:24 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ! Subject: Re: HPworld - I Survived , Message-ID: <_bCdndM9-aK7l7TcRVn-oA@igs.net>   Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- + >> From: Rusty [mailto:wilmesr@hotmail.com] ! >> Sent: August 22, 2004 10:16 AM  >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com$ >> Subject: Re: HPworld - I Survived >>F >> At one of the VMS sessions they mentioned a promotion for an RX2600 >> series w/ VMS for $900. >>& >> I can't find any mention at hp.com. >>  >> Anyone have any info on this? >> >  > Rusty, > F > I suspect that you may have heard about the following somewhat dated > promotion:J > http://h30046.www3.hp.com/promofile_oov.php?promo=1-27LB&portal=PRODUCTS > G > Note that the fine print says you get the rx2600 for USD$990 with the 9 > purchase of an OpenVMS based ES/GS Series Alpha system.  > G > However, there are other alternatives as well for getting rx2600's as H > well. A recent post on this newsgroup indicated that there were 2600's! > to be had for less than USD$2K.  > F > Keep in mind that in addition to OpenVMS, these 2600's will also runD > Linux, Windows64 and HP-UX on the same server as well, so they are > pretty flexible dev boxes.    . Don't forget to add Solaris to that list soon.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:23:41 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> ! Subject: RE: HPworld - I Survived R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3DFC20@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message------ > From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]=20  > Sent: August 22, 2004 5:03 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com # > Subject: Re: HPworld - I Survived  >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message-----   	 [snip...]    > > H > > Keep in mind that in addition to OpenVMS, these 2600's will also runF > > Linux, Windows64 and HP-UX on the same server as well, so they are > > pretty flexible dev boxes. >=20 >=200 > Don't forget to add Solaris to that list soon. >=20 >=20  D Yep, given the following 1999 url, it is likely almost there now ...H http://news.com.com/Sun+works+with+simulated+Merced+chip/2100-1001_3-219 964.html?tag=3Dnl & "Sun works with simulated Merced chip"   :-)   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2004 15:04:54 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> ( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP..... Message-ID: <mddr7pzat9l.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  # Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:   J > On 20 Aug 2004 09:45:34 -0700, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote:  = >> VMS was written for clustering, and unless you have opened 8 >> yourself up to a lawsuit, it always will be the best.  M > I admire your enthusiasm Bob but on a point of history here clustering came 5 > along a good five years after VMS saw light of day.   O ...and inherited the hardware and concepts from the 36-bit Jupiter project, for # which the HSC and CI were invented.    --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:29:27 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ( Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP...., Message-ID: <ssydnX_G5c5GCb_cRVn-ug@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote:  > < -----Original Message-----, > < From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]* > < Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 6:38 AM > < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , > < Subject: Re: If OVMS is killed by HP.... > <  > <  > < Jerry Finn wrote: 9 > < > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message > > < > news:<d7791aa1.0408150603.b9aef10@posting.google.com>...E > < >> Undisclosed <nomail@dontbeaweaselspammer.com> wrote in message C > < >>> could a community effort make the requisite bank to buy and F > < >>> open-source OVMS and/or maybe create a community-oriented OVMSC > to < >>> buy OVMS and sell it a la the Cray employees buying back  > Cray from < >>> SGI? > < >>@ > < >> they better not try to force users off, or else they will@ > < >> make a lot of customers like us very very angry and never' > < >> buy another HP product again ...  > < > G > < > Doesn't mean it won't happen. Its exactly whats happening with HP 
 > < > MPE/iX. H > < > They tried, and are trying to get HP to release the source, but ofA > < > course this is not in HP interest since they want their MPE G > customers < > to move on to something different. I've been in alot of ; > conferences < > on this and OVMS is never mentioned as an # > alternative, only HPUX, < > Linux  > < > and Windows. > <  > < G > < And all of this only supplies additional ammunition for Sun and IBM G > to < encourage VMS customers to switch - "Hey, if you are going to be C > forced to < switch operating systems, you may as well switch to a 7 > company that cares < about having your business too."  > F > I only just yesterday spoke with someone very close who is in senior > managment E > at one of the largest financial firms in the world, and they have a 
 > plethora of E > systems, Suns, Tru64+sybase, OpenVMS  and for their new procurement  > he told meG > that the criteria were in HP's favor over Sun and IBM, but in the end 
 > it appeared H > it was going to IBM.  I extolled the virtues of VMS,  but Sybase was a
 > problem and G > he couldn't sell VMS to management and the future with Itanium looked  > far too risky. > . > BTW, why is Sybase not supported on OpenVMS?    H Sybase is not offered, and is no longer supported on VMS for a couple of* reasons...both of which are tied to sales:  K A few years ago...around 8 now....Sybase released System 10. Polite company K would call it a 'dog' - most people in IT called it much worse. This is the K start of Sybase's financial slide. It also coincided with the depths of the H GQ Palmer neglect of VMS and the active "NT is the future" mantra of the aforementioned Palmer.  K So VMS gets hit with the double whammy of active encouragement of customers C by Digital  to 'embrace' anthing but VMS, and the less than stellar  performance of System 10.   L Sybase users on VMS, like other Sybase customers stay away from System 10 inG droves. Sybase starts to haemmorhage red ink and looks to cut platforms : where sales are tanking. Guess which o/s's number came up?   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:01:05 +0000 (UTC) 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)A Subject: Re: Installing OpenVMS Alpha on PWS 600au without CD-ROM 1 Message-ID: <newscache$ph0v2i$onx1$1@news.sil.at>   ` In article <noSdnQ6AabrII7XcRVnyuA@scarlet.biz>, "Starlet731" <starlet731@attglobal.net> writes:J >I have 2 local disks in the PWS, so your proposed configuration procedureM >would work, but how do I boot the PWS into the cluster via the EWA0 ethernet ! >interface from it's SRM console?    That's the easy part ;-)  L >Is this with BOOT EWA0? When I do this it continuously retries and will notK >boot into the cluster. Do have have to give other options to this command?    Yes. No.  K This means the bootserver (AS1000) is not working (/setup) as a bootserver. G You need to configure it first. This was already mentioned here in this  thread (@CLUSTER_CONFIG)...   H btw: Without a VMScluster license you can login only from OPA0. But thisE shouldn't be a problem on an unconfigured system (otherwise disabling   MOTIF or so might be neccessary)   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:11:05 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>A Subject: Re: Installing OpenVMS Alpha on PWS 600au without CD-ROM 6 Message-ID: <1040822180712.19425B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  & On Sun, 22 Aug 2004, Starlet731 wrote:  K > Does this explanation assume that there is something installed yet on the N > PWS. I want to start from the situation with totally blanc disks on the PWS.  6 No.  PWS can have completely blank disks at the start.  L > How is it booted into the cluster formed with the AS1000. How must this be' > done from the SRM console on the PWS?  >   E I don't know the exact commands, which I think depend somewhat on the C specific model of Alpha you are attempting to boot, but they should  be in the Cluster manual.    It would be something like   >>> boot -fl 1,0 ewa0:  E Where the 1 in the flags is the system root you selected for the PWS, 8 and ewa0: is the console name for your ethernet adapter.      	 > Thanks!  > 1 > "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> schreef in bericht 2 > news:1040822032548.19425R-100000@Ives.egh.com..., > > On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, David Froble wrote: > >  > > > Starlet731 wrote:  > > >  > > > > Hello, > > > > , > > > > I have a problem with the following: > > > > N > > > > PWS 600au has no supported CD-ROM drive for OpenVMS (i.e. not 512 byte > > > > sectored)!L > > > > So I can not boot the installation CD-ROM on the PWS. I have OpenVMS > V7.3-1G > > > > and an AlphaServer 1000 4/200 with a supported CD-ROM drive and 	 > OpenVMS  > > > > installed on it.M > > > > Now I have read that I can install OpenVMS on the PWS via the network L > > > > (ethernet) form the AlphaServer with a cluster configuration. By the > way: I" > > > > use the hobbyist licenses.M > > > > How must I accomplish this to get OpenVMS installed on the local disk  > on theI > > > > PWS? Can I do that directly from the mounted OpenVMS installation  > CD-ROM on E > > > > the AlphaServer (via the net), or must I do this another way? I > > > > Is there a link on the net with a more detailed explanation to do  > this?  > > > >   > > > > Thank you for your help! > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > K > > > 1) take the PWS disk, put it in the AlphaServer 1000, build VMS, move  > disk back  > > > to PWS, autogen. > > > ; > > > 2) take CD drive from AS 1000, put in PWS, build VMS.  > > > J > > > 3) (best option) get another CD drive for PWS.  You can find one for > well under > > > $20.  Maybe under $10. > > > 
 > > > Dave > > K > > If PWS will boot over the network, you can add a 2nd node for it on the I > > AS1000 ($ @sys$manager:cluster_config_lan), boot it into the cluster, J > > enable MSCP disk serving on it, mount the PWS disk /foriegn (on eitherF > > the AS1000 or the PWS), backup/image/ignore=interlock AS1000_disk: > PWS_disk:,K > > dismount the PWS_DISK:, remount it file-structured, change its label to J > > avoid conflicts, ana/disk/repair it to fix the broken stuff due to theI > > online backup, shutdown and reboot the PWS from its local disk, using L > > the root directory you made for it.  If the two systems are not going toJ > > permanenly live in a cluster, change VAXCLUSTER to 0 in MODPARAMS.DAT, > > autogen and reboot.  > > G > > Remember you'll still have to use the PWS's root directory when you L > > boot it, either from its local disk or via the network, or it will think3 > > it is the AS1000, leading to network conflicts.  > > H > > Deleting the extra roots and renaming the remaining on to [sys0.] is' > > left as an exercise for the reader.    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:59:00 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>A Subject: Re: Installing OpenVMS Alpha on PWS 600au without CD-ROM , Message-ID: <41295D74.1020509@tsoft-inc.com>   Starlet731 wrote:   K > I have 2 local disks in the PWS, so your proposed configuration procedure N > would work, but how do I boot the PWS into the cluster via the EWA0 ethernet" > interface from it's SRM console? > M > Is this with BOOT EWA0? When I do this it continuously retries and will not L > boot into the cluster. Do have have to give other options to this command? > 	 > Thanks!     $ See, other methods aren't so simple.  O I've never done what's suggested, so what may be 'hard' for me may be 'simple'   for others.   Q I'm guessing the AS1000 must be set up to provide the remote boot service.  Just  > guessing.  Don't think it's automatic, or the default behavor.    G > "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> schreef in bericht - > news:newscache$a2su2i$vdx1$1@news.sil.at...  > ? >>In article <f5CdndR-ptlyLLXcRVnyjQ@scarlet.biz>, "Starlet731"  >>$ > <starlet731@attglobal.net> writes: > L >>>Can't it be done in a less labor intensive way (not swapping the physicalL >>>disks or CD-ROM's) because I hate messing with the computer hardware. Can >>>o > I  > G >>>do this with a cluster configuration between the PWS and the AS1000?o >>> C >>Yes. Use the AS1000 as a bootserver for the PWS. Use the PWS as aH >> > satelliteu > F >>to backup the VMS CD to a local SCSI disk, then boot the PWS locallyJ >>from this (installation) disk and install VMS on another local PWS disk.    P Or, even simpler, just BACKUP/IMAGE the system disk on the AS1000.  Remember to  autogen.    H >>>How do I configure the AS1000 to serve the installation CD-ROM to the >>>e > PWS. > ! >>No problem with serving the CD, : >>but a problem installing OpenVMS from an MSCP served CD. >> >>I >>>How do I boot then the PWS from the SRM console (via network interfacee >>>t > EWA0)  > 7 >>>with the installation CD in the AS1000 CD-ROM drive?e >>>t
 >>Not at all.e >>F >>OTOH, you can use the undocumented/unsupported infoserver feature ofJ >>OpenVMS Alpha V8 to serve the AS1000 CD via a LAST service to the PWS... >> >>-- e >>Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERt' >>Network and OpenVMS system specialistD >>E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atH >>A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist >> >  >        -- -4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin RoadV Vanderbilt, PA  154868   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:56:59 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...+ Message-ID: <4128DE6B.D39268FF@comcast.net>-   David Froble wrote:  >  > GreyCloud wrote: >  > >  > >e > > John Vottero wrote:u > >:4 > >> "GreyCloud" <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message/ > >> news:y8-dnePTp8Xz4rvcRVn-gg@bresnan.com...  > >> > >>>b > >>> David J Dachtera wrote:> > >>>> > >>>n > >>>> GreyCloud wrote:h > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Bob Ceculski wrote:V > >>>>>e > >>>>>g > >>>>>t2 > >>>>>> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17994 > >>>>>o > >>>>>dN > >>>>> The question now remaining is where can I get an Itanium box for a low > >>>>> price? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>* > >>>> Depends on what you consider "low". > >>>>G > >>>> That said, keep an ear to the ground for announcements about the? > >>>> portingN > >>>> classes where you pay $2600 to attend the class and port your app., and5 > >>>> walk-away with the IA64 box you used in class.s > >>>> > >>>h > >>> $2600??  Are they NUTS???f > >>>W& > >>> Dont' these idiots get it yet???# > >>> Prices are falling... FAST!!!SN > >>> These delusional morons will just sink in the quick sand and become OIL! > >> > >> > >># > >> What world are you living in??  > >  > >s > > In the world of reality. > >aJ > >> The HP RX2600 is an enterprise class machine, not some crappy no-nameI > >> piece of junk.  It has things like hot swap power supplies, hot swapaF > >> fans etc.  I just went to www.dell.com to see what a similar DellH > >> machine would cost.  A Dell PowerEdge 2650 with dual Xeon CPUs, 4GB7 > >> RAM and dual 36GB disks will run you about $5,892.w > >>H > >> A Dell PowerEdge 3250 with dual 1.5Ghz Itaniums, 8GB RAM, 72GB disk > >> will cost you $23,815.l > >>$ > >> $2,600 for an RX2600 is a deal. > >> > >r > >e. > > But that price can come lower and it will. > >i > >  > F > With VMS license?  Ok, 8.1 is $75.  Don't know about upgrade to 8.2.  H Even if the machine and the license costs were the same ($2600 + $2600),E that might be livable if the license equates to unlimited users, IMO. D That's still circa. $5,200, but anyone worth their salt can probablyG justify that before they can justify a $15,000 license for an o.s. on am $2,600 machine.e  Q > In any case, the price includes a week of class, with people to help in portingeL > issues you run into.  It's not just the computer system you're paying for.  > The value of the learning likely far exceeds the cost of both!  P > The way I looked at it, you're paying for the class, and the computer is free.$ > Can you complain about that price?   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:19:52 GMTs% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...: Message-ID: <sS9Wc.2317$Iz.242@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>  @ "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4128DE6B.D39268FF@comcast.net...n   [snip] >>G >> With VMS license?  Ok, 8.1 is $75.  Don't know about upgrade to 8.2.f >oJ > Even if the machine and the license costs were the same ($2600 + $2600),G > that might be livable if the license equates to unlimited users, IMO.hF > That's still circa. $5,200, but anyone worth their salt can probablyI > justify that before they can justify a $15,000 license for an o.s. on a  > $2,600 machine.s >-  L Before anyone gets too excited, the prices that are being tossed around are L special deals for DSPP members for remanufactured hardware.  The list price M for a new RX2600 starts at about $5,700 and climbs rapidly.  As far as I can n7 tell, none of these prices includes an OpenVMS License.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:02:44 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ..., Message-ID: <ZuGdnUzJzIfLw7TcRVn-pw@igs.net>   John Vottero wrote: A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in messagei' > news:4128DE6B.D39268FF@comcast.net...o >  > [snip] >>>hH >>> With VMS license?  Ok, 8.1 is $75.  Don't know about upgrade to 8.2. >>C >> Even if the machine and the license costs were the same ($2600 +hD >> $2600), that might be livable if the license equates to unlimitedF >> users, IMO. That's still circa. $5,200, but anyone worth their saltF >> can probably justify that before they can justify a $15,000 license# >> for an o.s. on a $2,600 machine.n >> >XB > Before anyone gets too excited, the prices that are being tossed> > around are special deals for DSPP members for remanufacturedG > hardware.  The list price for a new RX2600 starts at about $5,700 and F > climbs rapidly.  As far as I can tell, none of these prices includes > an OpenVMS License.a    F The conundrum is that with 'commodity' hardware (or at least commodityI within the same manufacturer's lineup), HP has to convince customers thatoH it's worth paying a premium for a better o/s on the same hardware ratherH than spending zero (or close to it) in capital costs for linux, more forL Windows or HP-UX, and yet more for VMS and NSK. My bet is that HP will never do it.  D The simple analog is that of a distiller of whiskey - the individualF distilleries *may* buy their grain from the same merchant (Cargill, orI Intel), and each distillery will put their own unique spin on the whiskeyoG produced (age, etc, or their own hardware and operating systems in IT'stJ case), but each distiller then has to market each of their products to theJ target audience. HP seems to be quite content to sell other manufacturer's whiskey rather than their own.  . HP - the Crazy Eddie of the computer industry.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:31:17 GMT.% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> 4 Subject: Re: OpenVMS pretty darn fast on itanium ...< Message-ID: <9ydWc.6612$FV3.2908@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>  / "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message @& news:ZuGdnUzJzIfLw7TcRVn-pw@igs.net... > John Vottero wrote: B >> "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message( >> news:4128DE6B.D39268FF@comcast.net... >>	 >> [snip]i >>>>I >>>> With VMS license?  Ok, 8.1 is $75.  Don't know about upgrade to 8.2.  >>>:D >>> Even if the machine and the license costs were the same ($2600 +E >>> $2600), that might be livable if the license equates to unlimited-G >>> users, IMO. That's still circa. $5,200, but anyone worth their salt G >>> can probably justify that before they can justify a $15,000 licensew$ >>> for an o.s. on a $2,600 machine. >>>- >>C >> Before anyone gets too excited, the prices that are being tossedo? >> around are special deals for DSPP members for remanufactured H >> hardware.  The list price for a new RX2600 starts at about $5,700 andG >> climbs rapidly.  As far as I can tell, none of these prices includes  >> an OpenVMS License. >o >vH > The conundrum is that with 'commodity' hardware (or at least commodityK > within the same manufacturer's lineup), HP has to convince customers thatlJ > it's worth paying a premium for a better o/s on the same hardware ratherJ > than spending zero (or close to it) in capital costs for linux, more forI > Windows or HP-UX, and yet more for VMS and NSK. My bet is that HP will e > never, > do it. >h  F I haven't seen prices for OpenVMS yet but I'm betting that they'll be M competitive.  Right now, HP only lists two operating systems for the RX2600, lM Windows Enterprise Server 2003 is $3,600 and Red Hat Linux is $700 per year. C4 Linux may be $0 in capital costs but, it's not free.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:10:59 -0700f From: Z <z@no.spam>w  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt0 Message-ID: <10ii2uuk0fknd13@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:iD > I've never used SmartTerm's FTP; however, WRQ's newest FTP clientsG > (since about V6.2) are "drag and drop", and that makes them a *ROYAL* C > PITA! Don't believe me? Try this: without using the command line,-J > transfer any file so that it gets a different name on the target machineD > - you can't, and if there's already a file by the same name at theD > target, or if the target doesn't accept the filename syntax on the= > source machine, ... time wasters! The V6.10 FTP client fromtD > WRQ/Reflection should be updated for the newer Windows o.s.-es and1 > re-released without the Whinebloze Exploder BS.m  . Transfer then Rename, or Rename then Transfer.   All from within WRQ.    : Yes, it's true that you can't rename it on the fly, as you can with GET or PUT.  " So, that's your biggest complaint?  < I especially like multiple select and drag and drop.  That's< a lot simpler (and a lots less typing) than issuing multiple GETs or even MGETs.T   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:55:40 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt, Message-ID: <41294E9C.6000403@tsoft-inc.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:.   > David Froble wrote:e >  >>[snip]R >>Interesting comment on SmarTerm's FTP.  I've used it, and normally like the dragQ >>and drop interface.  I've had problems transfering large files where it appearshH >>to complete transfering, but doesn't complete the transaction, and the? >>destination file isn't usable.  What don't you like about it?b >> > D > I've never used SmartTerm's FTP; however, WRQ's newest FTP clientsG > (since about V6.2) are "drag and drop", and that makes them a *ROYAL*6C > PITA! Don't believe me? Try this: without using the command line,mJ > transfer any file so that it gets a different name on the target machineD > - you can't, and if there's already a file by the same name at theD > target, or if the target doesn't accept the filename syntax on the= > source machine, ... time wasters! The V6.10 FTP client fromgD > WRQ/Reflection should be updated for the newer Windows o.s.-es and1 > re-released without the Whinebloze Exploder BS.u    T SmarTerm allows the choice of drag & drop or a command line interface.  Your choice.    % >>Windows isn't a bad user interface.P >> > J > ...it's just not a good one. IMO, windowed GUIs would be a lot better if= > they forced programmers to always allow keyboard shortcuts./    M Come now David.  I agree that there are good programming principals, but why EN would we need programmers if everything was already settled.  That would also $ keep them from doing required tasks.  N There are bad programmers.  There are bad designs.  Don't blame the tools for Q either.  I do agree with your following rant.  I'm currently working on a Visual rN Basic based project.  Hey, gotta pay the mortgage and grocery bill.  I insure Q that the user does not need a mouse to run the applications.  Keyboard shortcuts  P and well organized tab sequences are part of good programming.  That's just how Q it is.  Sometimes I worry that I'm so intent on mouseless operation that I don't >6 provide the best possible mouse operation of the apps.   > Laptop mouseD > options (touchpad, the little "joystick" embedded in the keyboard,E > trackballs, etc.) *REALLY* suck as far as I'm concerned, and on thecH > train or a plane, using an external mouse frequently is not an option. > F > I'm always amazed at how few otherwise tech-savvy people know or are  > taught the keyboard shortcuts. >  > D.J.D. >    Dave   -- h4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadd Vanderbilt, PA  15486t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:43:02 GMTVL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt6 Message-ID: <00A36C11.14DE6AFB@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <4128D87B.1C7EC5E@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  >David Froble wrote:	 >> [snip]8S >> Interesting comment on SmarTerm's FTP.  I've used it, and normally like the dragcR >> and drop interface.  I've had problems transfering large files where it appearsI >> to complete transfering, but doesn't complete the transaction, and the @ >> destination file isn't usable.  What don't you like about it? >aC >I've never used SmartTerm's FTP; however, WRQ's newest FTP clientsTF >(since about V6.2) are "drag and drop", and that makes them a *ROYAL*B >PITA! Don't believe me? Try this: without using the command line,I >transfer any file so that it gets a different name on the target machineAC >- you can't, and if there's already a file by the same name at the6C >target, or if the target doesn't accept the filename syntax on theu< >source machine, ... time wasters! The V6.10 FTP client fromC >WRQ/Reflection should be updated for the newer Windows o.s.-es and.0 >re-released without the Whinebloze Exploder BS.  F If you poke around you may be able to get your WRQ FTP client to open F a command line.  I've been able to. (I'm at home now, and the box with= Reflection FTP is at work, so I don't know the model number.)s   -- Alanc -- aO ===============================================================================f0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025:O ===============================================================================-   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2004 21:39:34 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0408222039.6e9fcf4b@posting.google.com>   X VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A36B3F.1DF2A03F@SendSpamHere.ORG>...} > In article <4127C0F2.4E00AED5@encompasserve-or-this.org>, Graham Burley <burley.not-this@encompasserve-or-this.org> writes:n$ > >VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> es > >> In article <b096a4ee.0408201824.1701176e@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:f   > >> >On a SmarTerm window.h  ! > >> What the hell is a SmarTerm?n  H > >A terminal emulator for MS Windows that provides VT series emulation,1 > >IIRC it does properly emulate the status line.   p* > Then what the hell is Feldman's issue?    pB > (I don't expect you to answer.  He himself doesn't have a clue.)    ! All right. Stop with the insults.h  4 Let's review, shall we? From a recent relevant post:   I wrote:  F > >Actually, I'd like to see an option to add the time to the prompt.    You:  T > With continuous time update?   I:  E No. I want to be able to come back to a SmarTerm session and at leastbF have a clue as to when things happened. I want the time to be the timeF that the prompt appeared on the screen. Someone mailed me a utility to try but I haven't tried it yet.e   You:  G > FYI, with XPDNT, you can include the last 32 characters in the promptuG > string.  It can also be used to update the DECterm title bar with thenG > current default (up to about 60 characters of it) or have is write inr > the 25th "status" line.h   I:  D I don't have anything to run DECwindows on and I don't have any real need for DECwindows.    C Then you went on and on about DECwindows and terminals and I simplysD responded. I guess I should have skipped my comment about not havingF or needing DECwindows (which I just put in as an "off-the-cuff" answerF to your remarks about putting the default in the DECterm window) whichC apparently is the only part of that post that you read! And I guessFE you thought that I also wanted the default in the prompt and I don't!t? Hence the confusion. Actually, I did say that I do not want the- default in my prompt.      One more time:  F I want DCL to offer an option to add the time to the DCL prompt -- theD time that the prompt appeared. This is how it works in MS-DOS and onA Stratus's VOS. That's what I am asking for. I am not asking for a @ clock. I have a clock already. I want to be able to go back to a@ session, either still in the SmarTerm history buffer or copy andD pasted to a file on the VAX, and have the times in the prompts. ThisF gives clues as to what happened when. It is not a comprehensive set ofF time stamps, but it is better than no time stamps. It might be nice toC also have at least the day as an added option as sometimes the timee@ alone is not enough (for example if you come back to a session a, couple of days later and run more commands).  E And I DO NOT want the default in my prompt. I have WH*ERE as a symbolaF for show default so all I need to do to see my default is a very quickF WH<Return>. I do, however, like having the nodename in the prompt, andA have already added appropriate commands to my login.com for that.a   I hope this clears things up.   E I will write to Hunter Goatley and ask for a copy of his program (seee his post in this thread).t   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2004 21:52:14 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  Subject: Re: Re, Re : set prompt= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0408222052.40009937@posting.google.com>e  d David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<4128D87B.1C7EC5E@comcast.net>... > David Froble wrote: 
 > > [snip] [...]2  ' > > Windows isn't a bad user interface.    Since when?-  J > ...it's just not a good one. IMO, windowed GUIs would be a lot better ifJ > they forced programmers to always allow keyboard shortcuts. Laptop mouse   Bravo! I second that!1  D > options (touchpad, the little "joystick" embedded in the keyboard,E > trackballs, etc.) *REALLY* suck as far as I'm concerned, and on therH > train or a plane, using an external mouse frequently is not an option.  A I haven't used laptops much at all, but I usually prefer keyboardoE shortcuts over the mouse. There might be a trackball out there that IaE like. As far as the little IBM Thinkpad joystick, I've only used that.E once and had a little trouble with it. Maybe it would get better withsA some practice. Maybe not, but I didn't really like it much at the0 time.   F But how would you implement selecting text with keyboard shortcuts? orC moving borders? I'd like it, but how would it work? I'd guess you'd2@ need an x-y system which by pressing the arrow keys would move aF pointer and then certain Ctrl key combos would to the select, cut, andF paste, or just the current Windows method of using the Application keyF to get a right-click menu which contains cut, copy, and paste commandsF accessible by pressing the key of the underlined letters. Actually, onC second thought, Windows does have such a feature called Mouse Keys.VA But when I tried it back with Win95, it was buggy! It would causeyF values in an Access form to go wild! I haven't tried it since. Anyway,4 even if it did work, it would be clumsy and or slow.    F > I'm always amazed at how few otherwise tech-savvy people know or are  > taught the keyboard shortcuts.  A And even for those who like the mouse, the keyboard shortcuts aren often faster and easier.   >  > D.J.D.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2004 12:56:19 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)I Subject: Re: Unix/VMS programming environment, was: Re: If OVMS is killed 3 Message-ID: <UmBdOMkep7ZF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <41280F68.8090400@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:o > I > Good enough, I've been educated on the select() function in C on Linux.- > I > Maybe this is a question only a VMS person would ask.  What if I'm not yI > programming in C on Unix/Linux?  Do I have any other options besides C?0 >   K The general method seems to be to call select() and friends either directlygJ or indirectly from your language, and no, I don't like that either with my VMS background.o  I As an alternative, you could always call the kernel system call directly, @ but you are going to run into portability issues if you do that.  S > I guess my problem with the answer is that it's a language capability, not an OS ,R > capability.  Guess I should ask how close the 2 are in a Unix/Linux environment. > Q > Still haven't seen how to have the OS provide something similar to a timer AST.e >   K Have a look at man pages for alarm() and setitimer(). They deliver a signal.1 after a specified period of time to your process.3   Simon.   -- gB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       P SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of most disliked companies   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:04:32 -0400s  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>6 Subject: V7.3-2 upgrade DECwindows problem encountered6 Message-ID: <1040822170326.19425A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ? Long story short:  DECwindows didn't work immediately after the:3 upgrade, but seems to have eventually fixed itself!l      F Upgraded V7.3-1 to V7.3-2 on an Alphastation 200 4/100.  Also upgradedI DECnet-plus to V7.3-2 and DECwindows-Motif to V1.3-1.  (Using TCPware 5.6s* as the TCP/IP stack, which I didn't touch.  A After upgrading, the DECWindows login screen didn't come up.  The D DECW$SERVER_0 process was there but no DTLOGIN or DTGREET processes.  B The upgrade process automatically runs AUTOGEN and reboots the 1stF time you boot after the upgrade.  On the 2nd reboot, during DECwindowsC startup, it said some SYSGEN parameters were too small and asked if E I wanted it too run AUTOGEN to fix the parameters and reboot.  I saidrE "yes" and it did so.  (I know this used to be broken in some previousuF versions, where it wouldn't actually change anything, so you would endE up in an infinite loop of AUTOGEN-without-change, reboot.  However, I E think this was fixed in an ECO a long time ago, and it seemed to work9F fine this time.  At least, the questionable parameters got changed andA on the subsequent reboot, DECwindows didn't complain about them.)   3 However, the DECWindows login screen didn't appear.   : I installed all the V7.3-2 ECO's, and rebooted a 4th time.A Still no DECWindows screen.  The cursor was there, and would move:9 around in response to the mouse, but you couldn't log in.n  B I could start a DECterm process on the node, displaying on anotherA Alpha (running DEC Unix), so it looked like the DECwindows client  side was working, etc.  3 Tried restarting the server (several times) with=20l6 @sys$manager:decw$startup restart, but still the same.  A Noticed in the accounting log that each time I tried to start it,V5 there was a "detached process login failure" like so:y  K Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on KLEIN, system=20  id: 104r8 Auditable event:          Detached process login failure1 Event time:               18-AUG-2004 06:11:47.86r" PID:                      214000B1  Process name:             _WSA1:  Username:                 SYSTEM" Process owner:            [SYSTEM]I Image name:               $3$DKA100:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]LOGINOUT.EXEs Posix UID:                -2) Posix GID:                -2 (%XFFFFFFFE)nE Status:                   %LIB-F-ACTIMAGE, error activating image !ASi  H but I couldn't find any indication what image it was failing to activate or any log file anywhere.    Gave up and went home.  D Next day, when I got some time to go back to work on it, it had beenI up for 24 hours, still no login screen, just a cursor, and I tried again.oF Noticed that sys$manager:sylogin.com and login.com had no world accessG so I changed them both to w:re.  Also noticed (from something else thatsE didn't care, but logged the situation), that the sys$manager: versionsE of login.com was attempting to "$ set term/inquire" when it shouldn'ttE (i.e. when not on an interactive terminal), so I updated it to a moretC recent version of my personal login.com that doesn't do that.  AlsoiI removed some cruft and made it exit as soon as possible when SYS$COMMAND:oE isn't a real terminal.  None of these things helped; tried restartinga2 DECwindows after each one, but symptoms persisted.  I Turned on all auditable events in the security logging, and enabled imageoF accounting, and after restarting several times and wading through tonsG of logged info, didn't really learn anything new, except that I noticedaA it was trying to use TRACE_V74, which is part of a new version oftE DEBUG we received from HP because of problems examining and modifyingaE fields in shareable images we had under V7.3-1.  (I think this hasn'tcG been released as an ECO, but its main reason for existing is to supportPD C++.  They sent it to us mostly on the off chance it would help, and it worked fine.)  - So I turned off the V74 debugger by executing ? "$ @sys$startup:debug$startup_v74 VMS", commenting it out of=20 7 systartup_vms.com, and tried again.  Still didn't work.   = At this point, the system had been up for more than a day, so = I autogen'ed again (made minimal changes), but didn't reboot.a  D I was planning to install DEC Basic V1.5-1 to rebuild basic$starlet,) but couldn't find the LP CDs.  Went home.t  D Came in the next day, and discovered the DECwindows login screen wasC now displayed on the console, and DTGREET and DTLOGIN were running!iB From=20show process/accounting, it looked like they had started atG about the same time as I ran the AUTOGEN (connect time about 16 hours.) A The system had now been up for over 2 days, since long before the  AUTOGEN.  @ Logged into DECwindows, desktop came up, everything looked fine.@ Found the LP CD, updated BASIC, rebooted (for the 1st time since> installing the 1st set of ECO's before I started trying to get> DECwindows to work), and as soon as the normal startup process< completed, DECwindows came up by itself and the login screen) appeared.  It now seems to work normally.t  D I suspect the DEBUG version more than the AUTOGEN (since the AUTOGENF does a "write current", not a "write active"), but don't understand=20B why it didn't work immediately after I changed back to the default	 debugger.e  B I haven't yet determined if the V7.3-2 debugger fixes the problems we had with the V7.3-1 version.n  J I vaguely recall seeing something in previous versions of the InstallationC and Update Manual telling you to disable any non-standard debuggers-F (by removing them from systartup_vms.com) before starting the upgrade,? but didn't see any mention of that in the V7.3-2 version of theu manual.C       --=20g John Santos2 Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Aug 2004 13:06:16 -0500B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley): Subject: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF)3 Message-ID: <$H3M200FyBHI@eisner.encompasserve.org>   7 What is/was ODS-6 ? (Have a look in a recent HM2DEF...)u   Simon.   -- eB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       P SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of most disliked companies   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:20:56 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>> Subject: Re: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF)2 Message-ID: <cgav7f$4kk$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>  M Unless it is a typo, it could be the new filesystem VMS engineering has been h! working on for many years now....5   Simon Clubley wrote:9 > What is/was ODS-6 ? (Have a look in a recent HM2DEF...)  >  > Simon. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:41:09 -0400h) From: Andrew Robert <arobert@townisp.com>a> Subject: Re: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF)0 Message-ID: <10ii4lqpiiqdvac@corp.supernews.com>  " -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
 Hash: SHA1   Dirk Munk wrote:I | Unless it is a typo, it could be the new filesystem VMS engineering has ( | been working on for many years now.... |h | Simon Clubley wrote: | : |> What is/was ODS-6 ? (Have a look in a recent HM2DEF...) |>	 |> Simon.u |> Was this spirolog? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----o! Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)IB Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org  @ iD8DBQFBKRL1tvFd07fNC/kRAgdtAKDKtQ3+DlJuJQ8LhwDtxv8a4bOmCwCdFOoh gWzi5JLgV5zKH9Aw6Naei2I= =YFqT  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----,   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:10:40 -0400 " From: Glenn Everhart <gce@gce.com>> Subject: Re: What is/was ODS-6 ? (Referenced in recent HM2DEF)4 Message-ID: <41291a55$0$21751$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>   Dirk Munk wrote:J > Unless it is a typo, it could be the new filesystem VMS engineering has ( > been working on for many years now.... >  > Simon Clubley wrote: > : >> What is/was ODS-6 ? (Have a look in a recent HM2DEF...) >>	 >> Simon.e >> Remember Spiralog?   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.466 ************************dd a 2nd node for it on the I > > AS1000 ($ @sys$manager:cluster_config_lan), boot it into the cluster, J > > enable MSCP disk serving---------------------------------------- NEWSRDRA$    Version:      V4.9-2, 16-NOV-1998;    Description:  MadGoat NNTP client reader for Usenet news:9    Author:       Matthew D. Madison <madison@MadGoat.com>-    Architecture: VAX,AXP    # of parts:   -    Language:     CP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE"    Version:      V2.2, 31-AUG-19984    Description:  A system for managing login notices8    Author:       Hunter Goatley <goathunter@PROCESS.COM>    Architecture: VAX,AXP    # of parts:   -    Language:     BLISS32P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NSQUERY $    Version:      V3.0-3, 17-JAN-1995>    Description:  Utility to query Internet domain name servers5    Author:       Matthew D. Madison <madison@TGV.COM>-    Architecture: VAX,AXP    # of parts:   -    Language:     CP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OBJECT    Version:      e)    Description:  Get info from .OBJ files     Author:       Joe Meadows    Architecture: VAX    # of parts:   -    Language:     CP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ODS-2-READER    Version:      1-JUN-1993dB    Description:  Read VMS files from ODS-2 disk under UNIX and VMS    Author:       t    Architecture: VAX,AXP    # of parts:   -    Language:     CP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ODS-2-READER-FOR-OSF-1    Version:      21-SEP-19946    Description:  Copy files from VMS disks under OSF/1'    Author:       Glenn Everhart, et al.     Architecture: OSF/1    # of parts:   -    Language:     CP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ODS2"    Version:      V1.3, 27-SEP-2001?    Description:  Reads ODS-2 disks under VMS, Windows, and UNIX:_    Author:       Paul Nankervis <paulnank@au1.ibm.com>, Hunter Goatley <goathunter@goatley.com>-    Architecture: VAX,AXP    # o