1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 09 Dec 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 682       Contents: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !1 Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux 1 Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux 1 Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux 1 Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux 1 Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux 0 Re: It's crunch time ... to survive HP must  ...0 Re: It's crunch time ... to survive HP must  ... Re: News Server  Re: News Server  Re: News Server  Re: News Server F Re: NFS problem, server = VMS-TCPIP, client = Solaris.  Mount, hang...0 Re: OT: Chinese now 3rd biggest PC manufacturers0 Re: OT: Chinese now 3rd biggest PC manufacturers0 Re: OT: Chinese now 3rd biggest PC manufacturers; Re: Reinstalling DECwindows after losing it during upgrade? ; Re: Reinstalling DECwindows after losing it during upgrade? ; Re: Reinstalling DECwindows after losing it during upgrade?  Re: Suggestion for DECW TPU/EVE  Re: TK50 cartridge resurrection ( Which MPACK for 7.1 VMS alpha and where?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 8 Dec 2004 18:04:15 -0800 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! C Message-ID: <1102557855.682106.234470@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: 5 > In article <YoykacNBpCMv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: ? > >In article <b096a4ee.0411211618.9fa39ec@posting.google.com>, 0 spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > >>G > >> Uh, I don't see that. GR was a "generalization" of special rel. to  > >> acceleration and gravity. > > > > >   Nope.  "General Relativity" and "Special Relativity" are
 misnomers. > > A > >   "Special Relativity" is actually as general as it gets when  > >   discussing relativity. > > ? > >   "General Relativity" is actually a theory of gravitation.  > >  > : > No Alan is correct. Special relativity doesn't deal with
 acceleration. F > General Relativity reduces to the special case of Special Relativity> > when you are not dealing with accelerations (or equivalently
 gravitational 
 > fields). >  > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University  @ Actually, I think all three of us are correct. We all agree thatF special relativity is relativity. Now general relativity resulted fromA extending special relativity to acceleration. But general rel. is D founded on the idea that acceleration and gravitation are really theB same thing (plus other ideas). What this means is that if one wereF inside an elevator car, and that car were accelerated, all experiments@ inside the car would produce the same results as if the car wereF instead in a graviational field of suitable strength. Einstein assumedG that the two cases were physically indistinguishable. IOW, while one is G caused by propulsion, and the other caused by a suitable arrangement of 9 mass, the result inside the elevator is exactly the same.   E So gen. rel. ended up being mostly about gravitation. But it is still F part of relativity, sort of. So I believe all three of us are right. I  think its an issue of semantics.   OCICBWYK or JMHO   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:54:02 -0700: From: "Luc The Perverse" <sll_NOSPAM_zm@remove.cc.usu.edu>: Subject: Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux, Message-ID: <31p0u3F3e6h44U1@individual.net>  H "Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>A wrote in message news:00A3BF6E.4B5122BE@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU... J > >I have a little program I wrote in C++ - laughably simple, for managing my: > >indices on the left navbar.  This is on a suse 9.1 box. > > I > >Problem - The location that is hosting my webpage runs on VMS and uses L > >some unusual protocals.  It calls itself FTP, but anything you can't pull. > >up in mozilla, doesn't classify in my book. > I > This subject comes up here on comp.os.vms every so often.  It turns out  thatG > the FTP protocol doesn't define remote directory listing formats very 	 well, and K > so FTP clients try to parse whatever they get back, and most of them only K > really know how to do Unix and Windows directory listings.  I know that's  trueK > for IE; didn't know it was true for Mozilla.  Not clear why you're trying  to' > use Mozilla as an FTP client, though.  > K > There are several different TCP/IP packages which may run on VMS systems,  and H > there are different ways of getting them to give directory listings in formats K > your clients can understand.  You probably don't have much influence over  the L > administration of the system that hosts your site, but if you do you could ask K > them to install the HGFTP FTP-server add-on (high-quality freeware) which  willH > give directory listings in a format brain-dead clients can understand.  K Thanks for the suggestion, but recommending things to my university is like : telling to reason with a hungry animal that is eating you.  I > >I kept getting an error message that the directory didn't exist, and I K > >messed with it for a long time, thinking I could get it working, but no,  I  > >couldn't. > L > I'm not sure I'm following you.  Are you saying that on your Linux box youL > wrote a CGI script in C++ which is supposed to run as part of your websiteK > (hosted on a VMS server), and you can't upload to the website, because it  keeps I > giving you an error saying it can't find the directory you're trying to  put it > into.   K No -  there is no scripting on my web page.   I'm sorry I confused you.   I L value plain regular HTML pages, and utterly detest frames, however I like toL have tree navigation for my site, which is a nightmare to maintain manually,L so I use a helper application to regenerate (recompile if you will) the HTML: code whenever I change the tree or add an additional page.  F > Won't the command-line ftp command do this for you, once you get the	 directory  > structure issues sorted out?  J I was unaware that there was one - it is sounding like this is the missing link I was looking for.   G I thought I checked for one of these by going to the command prompt and 0 typing man ftp and go nothing, but I'm not sure.   -LTP   :)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:57:10 -0700: From: "Luc The Perverse" <sll_NOSPAM_zm@remove.cc.usu.edu>: Subject: Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux, Message-ID: <31p13vF3cbdf4U1@individual.net>  4 "JOUKJ" <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message$ news:cp6f7r$n0q$1@news.tudelft.nl...K > >>I have a little program I wrote in C++ - laughably simple, for managing  my; > >>indices on the left navbar.  This is on a suse 9.1 box.  > >>J > >>Problem - The location that is hosting my webpage runs on VMS and usesH > >>some unusual protocals.  It calls itself FTP, but anything you can't pull/ > >>up in mozilla, doesn't classify in my book.  > >  > > K > > This subject comes up here on comp.os.vms every so often.  It turns out  thatI > > the FTP protocol doesn't define remote directory listing formats very 	 well, and H > > so FTP clients try to parse whatever they get back, and most of them onlyF > > really know how to do Unix and Windows directory listings.  I know that's true F > > for IE; didn't know it was true for Mozilla.  Not clear why you're	 trying to ) > > use Mozilla as an FTP client, though.  > > G > Recent version of Mozilla work just fine as client to an OpennVMS-FTP 	 > server.   = Well this was the Konquoror browser which ships with Suse 9.1   1 > I always advise people to use (in this order) :  >    1) plain text-mode FTP  >    2) On Windows : WS-FTP  >    3) On MacIntosh : Fetch& >    4) Mozilla for anonymous download  7 You are not the first person to suggest plain text FTP.   J It will take some work figuring out to invoke it from my program (I assumeL this will require a shell script, another thing I do not yet know how to do)  H WS-FTP is the program I was using [in windows], as it was the only way I  could find to upload my webpage.   -LTP   :)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:59:49 -0700: From: "Luc The Perverse" <sll_NOSPAM_zm@remove.cc.usu.edu>: Subject: Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux, Message-ID: <31p18uF3db6i5U1@individual.net>  + <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote in message - news:8p4JQAbk7aaa@eisner.encompasserve.org... L > In article <pan.2004.12.08.08.58.45.898658@remove.cc.usu.edu>, *Mega snip*C > "According to the instructions I got from the administrators, ...   A Thanks - if I continue having problems, I will include additional  information :P   -LTP   :)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 19:33:42 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing): Subject: Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux6 Message-ID: <00A3C0A2.3C1D4FFA@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  i In article <31p0u3F3e6h44U1@individual.net>, "Luc The Perverse" <sll_NOSPAM_zm@remove.cc.usu.edu> writes:  >>M >> I'm not sure I'm following you.  Are you saying that on your Linux box you M >> wrote a CGI script in C++ which is supposed to run as part of your website L >> (hosted on a VMS server), and you can't upload to the website, because it >keepsJ >> giving you an error saying it can't find the directory you're trying to >put it  >> into. > L >No -  there is no scripting on my web page.   I'm sorry I confused you.   IM >value plain regular HTML pages, and utterly detest frames, however I like to M >have tree navigation for my site, which is a nightmare to maintain manually, M >so I use a helper application to regenerate (recompile if you will) the HTML ; >code whenever I change the tree or add an additional page.  >   O Okay, I get you now.  You were explaining why and how your pages were generated  on the Linux box.   G >> Won't the command-line ftp command do this for you, once you get the 
 >directory >> structure issues sorted out?  > K >I was unaware that there was one - it is sounding like this is the missing  >link I was looking for. > H >I thought I checked for one of these by going to the command prompt and1 >typing man ftp and go nothing, but I'm not sure.     I I believe Red Hat is tailorable enough that you might not have installed  ' command line ftp, but it surely exists.   L A quick google ("Red Hat" "man ftp") turned up what looks like the necessaryM hint for scripting using the command-line ftp command: use the "expect" tool.   F http://www.redhat.com/archives/redhat-list/1998-December/msg00967.html   -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:13:06 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> : Subject: Re: FTP program connect to VMS client under linux, Message-ID: <41B76046.D5E0485D@teksavvy.com>   Luc The Perverse wrote: 9 > You are not the first person to suggest plain text FTP.  > L > It will take some work figuring out to invoke it from my program (I assumeN > this will require a shell script, another thing I do not yet know how to do)  L You complained about Mozilla not working. OUT of curiosity, had you expected= to be able to script a GUI to do the file transfers for you ?   P On any unix machines with a TCPIP stack, you should be able to do "ftp hostname"K You then get prompted for username/"password and should then be dumped into N that user's login directory. You can issue standard unix commands such as "ls"G to get file listings. And then you have commands such as put and get to  transfer files.   # set type image  -> binary transfers   set type ascii -> text transfers  N The above 2 are important when transfering files to a different platform sinceI different platforms store text files differently. When in ascii mode, FTP H client and server use a common format to delimit text records, with each4 converting to/from their platform dependant formats.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:08:05 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 9 Subject: Re: It's crunch time ... to survive HP must  ... 2 Message-ID: <FaJtd.4096$5q3.2819@news.cpqcorp.net>  h In article <d7791aa1.0412040506.52dfbe2a@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:6 :1. offer free VMS licenses to all tru64 customers and4 :   even free porting assistance ... this would give6 :   them better security and clustering then what they/ :   have already and lighten the bitterness ...   H   There is presently a license trade-in available for folks that want toI   move from Tru64 UNIX on Alpha, HP-UX on PA RISC, or MPE/iX, to OpenVMS.   :   For details, here is the current license policy listing:  N   http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/alpha_retaintrust/download/policy1.pdf    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 17:03:56 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 9 Subject: Re: It's crunch time ... to survive HP must  ... , Message-ID: <41B77A3A.DDCB1E95@teksavvy.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: < >   For details, here is the current license policy listing: > P >   http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/alpha_retaintrust/download/policy1.pdf  7 Unfortunatly, there is no VAX-VMS to Alpha-VMS program.   N And while Tru64 customers can migrate to PaRisc or IA64 for HP-UX, they cannotL migrate to VMS-Alpha. Only to that IA64 thing (is there an official date set6 for when VMS is to be commercially availble on IA64 ?)  K If HP allows customers to migrate from one dead platform (Alpha) to another J dead platform (PaRisc), then it should also allow migrations to VMS-Alpha.  G And considering that VAX-VMS is all but officially dead in terms of new J features, you'd think that HP might encourage more migrations to a popularJ platform (Alpha). IA64 isn't popular and has a subset of software of Alpha- which itself is a subset of software for VMS.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:00:52 -0800 ! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca>  Subject: Re: News Server( Message-ID: <41B795B4.5010105@triumf.ca>   Keith,  >    This looks more promising.  Looks like JMS's old university:    IIRC.  Maybe he is still there and doing OPS1 also ????      .. fred bach ..   Keith Cayemberg wrote:  D > I also found another source for VNEWS at University of Arizona ... >  >  > VNEWS - University of Arizona ' > ftp://arizona.edu/software/vms/vnews/  > 	 > Cheers!  >  > K.C. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:55:49 -0800 ! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca>  Subject: Re: News Server( Message-ID: <41B79485.3010603@triumf.ca>   Keith,  ?    Looks like you are absolutely correct!  Sorry I missed that.        HOWEVER,  2    the links on that page don't work for me today.  5      ftp://ftp.opus1.com/opus1/software/vnews-150.bck       and  5      ftp://ftp.opus1.com/opus1/software/vnews.reasons   /     both give me a "directory not found" error.   4      So it looks like I'm on my own with VNEWS until$      someone fixes that OPUS 1 page.       .. fred bach  music@triumf.ca   Keith Cayemberg wrote:   > Fred Bach wrote: >  >>D >>   I used to support VNEWS here. Frequently had to edit, recompileF >>   and link it when some idiot created newsgroups with insanely longD >>   names (probably designed to blow up newsreaders).  VNEWS worked >>   just fine under VAX VMS.   	    [snip]    >  > 8 > Isn't the VNEWS I listed at Opus One the same package? > ' > Opus One Software - VNEWS news reader , > http://www.opus1.com/o/software_vnews.html > D > (note: my URL titles are only to differentiate web sources and notH > to claim authorship or ownership by the stated organisation or person) > 	 > Cheers!  >  > Keith Cayemberg  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 16:10:31 -0800 ! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca>  Subject: Re: News Server( Message-ID: <41B797F7.8060406@triumf.ca>   George,   A    Good to see you're around and kicking!  (Keep up the good work     on Mosaic.)  E    How do you compare DNEWS and VNEWS for reliability, functionality, D    and user-friendliness?  Thanks.  (VNEWS is free and I compiled it    myself.)       [ more below...]      George Cook wrote:  M > In article <877jo02qhe.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com writes:  >      [snip]   > I > With DNEWS on VMS we have never had any type of rebuild or news related F > downtime in the five or so years we have used it.  The DNEWS processE > has run non-stop for over 500 days, and then the only reason for it & > not running longer was VMS upgrades. >  > F >>>This alone is probably why a commerical news feed never took off in >>>the VMS market... >>F >>No, it is because the main users of news servers where dumping vaxesE >>and vms as fast as they could in most cases, and DEC/cumpuke/hp did  >>nothing to stop the rot. >  > E > In my small state there were at one time at least three educational F > institutions running news servers on VMS.  At least two of them wereB > willing to pay for DNEWS software support.  Unfortunately, given  9     We had myself and other local support for VNEWS here.     F > zero marketing from HP, my own organization is seriously consideringC > a three year plan to eliminate VMS statewide.  Why?  Because they F > think it is on its deathbed (if not already dead) at HP.  ManagementG > was taken totally by surprise two years ago when I had to inform them E > that, yes, there were still future releases of VMS for VAX planned. A > Actually I suspect they thought I was lieing to them, and I can @ > understand why considering how DEC/xxxxxx/hp have treated VMS. > 
 > George Cook  > WVNET         D    The un*x and lin*x users here laughed at us when we presented VMSD    as an option for the future.  But let me assure you, VMS is alive    and very well here.  ?     ... fred bach ...  music@triumf.ca  Opinions are only mine.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Dec 2004 00:00:58 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: News Server3 Message-ID: <aQ8WNO1vfsNx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   L In article <41B797F7.8060406@triumf.ca>, Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca> writes:  F >    The un*x and lin*x users here laughed at us when we presented VMSF >    as an option for the future.  But let me assure you, VMS is alive >    and very well here. > A >     ... fred bach ...  music@triumf.ca  Opinions are only mine.   C 	Okay.  What have you been up to Fred?  You haven't posted to c.o.v  	in five and a half years.   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 03:04:57 GMT 1 From: "Ken Randell" <kenneth.randell@verizon.net> O Subject: Re: NFS problem, server = VMS-TCPIP, client = Solaris.  Mount, hang... ( Message-ID: <thPtd.940$lZ6.545@trnddc02>  E >> There's a switch involved, but they're pretty close to each other. , >> Did your stuff work slowly or not at all?  ? My stuff worked fine (meaning performance was acceptable -- I/O E rates OK for running at 100Mbps/half-duplex each end, CPU utilization > on my VMS box -- a DS10 617Mhz was OK), but it as I think I've? previously mentioned, the share would go away or the NFS server  hang altogether.  D My application on the Debian Linux box was scanning a directory tree	 structure H every 2 seconds for any new files in order to download and process them.D The directory tree had some 10 sub-directories with 1 to 3 files per
 directory.' This is not what I'd call a large load.   H >> How many "readdir+" events should one expect per "pwd" request?  One?! >> A few?  Thousands?  Unlimited?   K I'll have to experiment with this and let you know...it's been a few months  since I L messed with this and of course I don't still have my figures handy -- not to mention   old age and senility setting in.  I Something else you can run as a 'diagnostic' for lack of a better term is  running TCPDUMP L (or whatever is called on VMS) to monitor the IP communications between your Solaris J box and the VMS box, particularly if it get's hung.  A network probe would be better as then > you could at least decode the packets and see what's going on.  I It doesn't surprise me that TRU64 client would be OK as (IIRC) the TCP/IP 
 5.3 and above H products are based upon the TRU64 code.  I think 5.5 gets away from this some: with the new 'fast' kernel which looks to be VMS-specific.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Dec 2004 21:32:33 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 9 Subject: Re: OT: Chinese now 3rd biggest PC manufacturers 3 Message-ID: <eSxDIn7fy57R@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <41B73415.44BEBA3E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >>  : >>    Kudos to IBM for selling of the non-profit business. >>  ; >>    Someone inside HP please insert between Carly's ears: ( >>       The handwriting is on the wall. > O > And even more kudos for IBM doing it first. Right now, if HP were to announce J > the same, it would be a "me too" and people would see HP as copying IBM.J > Carly's ego will prevent her from ditching the PC business anytime soon. >   ? 	That and common sense.  IBM's PC segment had declined, HP's is ? 	about 3 times larger.  Made sense for IBM - doesn't make sense 0 	for HP just yet... and this may sound familiar:  3 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1736976,00.asp   K In referring to recent speculation that IBM is set to sell its PC business, N Zitzner said such a move wouldn't make sense for HP, which saw revenue in this group grow 16 percent in 2004.    N "There's a lot of rhetoric in the market right now on who's in and who's out,"L he said. "I see this as a very profitable market for HP to participate in."   N In response to an analyst's question, Zitzner said his group is looking at how6 it would respond if IBM were to sell its PC division.   K "It's going to create a lot of turmoil with IBM accounts," he said. "It's a = great opportunity for us to go in and offer some stability."   -----------------    	Bing!  Q http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/b10a37eb3528139c?dmode=source   < 	And that is the only reason.  Full service.  If HP holds on< 	for another year or two, that gives them a year or two edgeC 	as a "full service" provider and no doubt will push that marketing  	advantage.     N > The good side of this is that perhaps she will be motivated to prove that HPP > can succeed where IBM failed and work hard to make her PC business profitable.   	Wrong.   G 	HP's PC business is profitable.  The PSG has been profitable the last  < 	6 Quarters in a row and 7 out of the last 8.  Would running? 	PCs only as a business make sense?  Absolutely NOT!  You could C 	end up like IBM with a billion dollar PC loss (see earlier posts). A 	But for a fully diversified company like HP it makes great sense / 	as it is a "value add."  That is strategically @ 	probably the only reason to hang on to a PC division these days= 	(as a counter-example - disk drives no longer made sense for A 	Digital, IBM, HP, etc. and those companies shed their disk drive  	divisions).   > Maybe she'll     		[snip]   				Rob    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:40:31 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 9 Subject: Re: OT: Chinese now 3rd biggest PC manufacturers , Message-ID: <z7GdndGumNqyVCrcRVn-sw@igs.net>   Rob Young wrote:7 > In article <41B73415.44BEBA3E@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ( > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >> Bob Koehler wrote:  >>> ; >>>    Kudos to IBM for selling of the non-profit business.  >>> < >>>    Someone inside HP please insert between Carly's ears:) >>>       The handwriting is on the wall.  >>G >> And even more kudos for IBM doing it first. Right now, if HP were to G >> announce the same, it would be a "me too" and people would see HP as A >> copying IBM. Carly's ego will prevent her from ditching the PC  >> business anytime soon.  >> > @ > That and common sense.  IBM's PC segment had declined, HP's is@ > about 3 times larger.  Made sense for IBM - doesn't make sense1 > for HP just yet... and this may sound familiar:  > 5 > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1736976,00.asp  > C > In referring to recent speculation that IBM is set to sell its PC  > business, @ > Zitzner said such a move wouldn't make sense for HP, which saw > revenue in this   > group grow 16 percent in 2004. > D > "There's a lot of rhetoric in the market right now on who's in and
 > who's out," < > he said. "I see this as a very profitable market for HP to > participate in." > A > In response to an analyst's question, Zitzner said his group is  > looking at how7 > it would respond if IBM were to sell its PC division.  > E > "It's going to create a lot of turmoil with IBM accounts," he said. 	 > "It's a > > great opportunity for us to go in and offer some stability." > -----------------  >  > Bing!  >  > L http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/b10a37eb3528139c?dmode=s ource  > = > And that is the only reason.  Full service.  If HP holds on = > for another year or two, that gives them a year or two edge D > as a "full service" provider and no doubt will push that marketing > advantage. >  > G >> The good side of this is that perhaps she will be motivated to prove D >> that HP can succeed where IBM failed and work hard to make her PC >> business profitable.  >  > Wrong. > G > HP's PC business is profitable.  The PSG has been profitable the last = > 6 Quarters in a row and 7 out of the last 8.  Would running @ > PCs only as a business make sense?  Absolutely NOT!  You couldD > end up like IBM with a billion dollar PC loss (see earlier posts).B > But for a fully diversified company like HP it makes great sense0 > as it is a "value add."  That is strategicallyA > probably the only reason to hang on to a PC division these days     G Let's see Rob....over the period you cite, just how much profit on what K total PC sales did HP make? Suggest you go through the HP quarterly reports  before you answer.  H Unfortunately HP does not publish VMS figures separately but if normallyK reliable sources are to be believed, VMS and related revenues, while vastly L lower than the PC group, were able to extract profits in rough numbers aboutJ 800% higher than the PC group over the same period, all without the aid of) any advertising or marketing to speak of.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Dec 2004 23:02:13 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 9 Subject: Re: OT: Chinese now 3rd biggest PC manufacturers 3 Message-ID: <E+mJSBwuJvhr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <z7GdndGumNqyVCrcRVn-sw@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  I > Let's see Rob....over the period you cite, just how much profit on what  > total PC sales did HP make?   / 	The last 6 quarters PSG has made $232 million.   1 > Suggest you go through the HP quarterly reports  > before you answer.   	Smarmy laddy aren't we?   > Unfortunately HP     			Rob   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:47:41 GMT 3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) D Subject: Re: Reinstalling DECwindows after losing it during upgrade?2 Message-ID: <h%Htd.4092$Xn3.1712@news.cpqcorp.net>  \ In article <41B637B6.973918F4@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >Charlie Hammond wrote: O >> The the procedure that implements the CD menu is neither tested nor expected ) >> to run except when booted from the CD.  > N >Ok, is that similar to standalone backup on VAX where it is built to run on aO >special slimmed down version of the kernel and running it on a real VMS system  >has unpredictable results ?  F When you boot the OpenVMS Alpha CD or OpenVMS I64 DVD you are booting E FULL OpenVMS -- with ALL options.  In fact, you are booting the exact F same set of files that is copied to the target disk in an installationI or upgrade.  HOWEVER, it runs a special startup procedure, not the normal E STARTUP.COM.  A couple steps later it gets to the procedure that runs F the "main menu", which runs one of serveral procedures that do variousB things, including the various PRODUCT commands.  It is these last A procedures that cannot be expected to run correctly in a "normal"  OpenVMS environment.  E Now VAX is another animal.  When you boot the OpenVMS VAX CD you boot A a copy of OpenVMS VAX that does NOT include _any_ of the optional D components.  The VAX installation still uses VMSINSTAL type savsets.B (Note that VMSINSTAL itelf is used ONLY in upgrades, and then ONLYD to restore saveset A and pass control to the KITINSTAL.COM procedure> from that saveset.  The actual installation/upgrade is done by. command procedures taht do not use VMSINSTAL.)  G >Ok, then, does the menu system of the CD make use of the standard PCSI   >"product" command and images ?   J What do you mean by "standard"?  The PRODUCT commands used from the CD/DVDI all use the /REMOTE qualilfier.  I think we now say this is supported (it H originally was NOT supported for other than OpenVMS installation) but itM does require a bit of knowledge.  The use of PCSI$SYSDEVICE and PCSI$SPECIFIC J is documeted.  However not all kits work correctly this way.  For example,K EXECUTE TEST procedure are unlikely to work as expected, and SYS$* logicals F used in any EXECUTES procedures are also unlikely to work as expected.E This is because when /REMOTE is used, the product is NOT installed on @ the current, running system.  (The CD/DVD in the case of OpenVMS installations.)   N >I am just trying to figure out why an install that should be possible withoutK >a reboot would require reboot to ened begin installation on alpha. One can J >PRODUCT INSTALL many products on VMS without needing to boot from the CD. ..M >Shirley the guy who wrote it (not meaning to imply that his name is Shirley) O >would have some idea. If it is a standard PCSI kit, why shouldn't it be usable ( >from the fully booted PRODUCT command ?  3 Actually, his name is Charlie.  Or sometimes "mud". H And he might NOT have an idea because it has never been tested this way.  F The DECwindows support bits are *NOT* a separate product; therefor youE do not have a product name to use when you install them.  You have to E install or reconfigure the OpenVMS operating system.  I hope you will E agree that installing or reconfiguring the system while it is running D as potential problems.  It might actually work; if you have the timeH to figure it out, feel free to try.  Othewise used the supported method.  F A PRODUCT INSTALL DWMOTIF command should work from the running system.D However, If I had booted the CD/DVD to get the suport bits installed: I would install DWMOTIF from the CD/DVD while I was there.  > I do not know if installing DWMOTIF requires a re-boot or not.   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:06:53 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> D Subject: Re: Reinstalling DECwindows after losing it during upgrade?, Message-ID: <41B75ED2.16A58572@teksavvy.com>   Charlie Hammond wrote:L > What do you mean by "standard"?  The PRODUCT commands used from the CD/DVD" > all use the /REMOTE qualilfier.   H OK. So I now see why the CD menu couldn't really be used since it issuesM PRODUCT commands that really do assume that the system disk is other than the  target disk.  I However, if one were to manually issue a product command from the running E system without the /REMOTE qualifier, are there still reasons why the  installation wouldn't work ?  N As I recall, PRODUCT extracts the files from the "package" into some temporaryJ directory from which it then copies/moves files etc appropritly, correct ?M When you execute from CD, obviously, those temporary files are not created on > the running system (CD) but rather on the target disk. Right ?  M Once those files are created, is there really any reason why the remainder of H the PCSI installation process would not work if you booted from the diskK instead of CD ?  (Remember, we're not talking about installing VMS per say,NF just installing the varous DECW support files which are fonts and some shareable images.)  N When one considers the flexibility of VMSINSTALL, I am somewhat surprised thatH the PRODUCT would lack some of the flexibility needed to remotely manageM systems. Having to be physically present and reboot a system BEFORE doing the 8 install is something which even Windows doesn't require.  J > And he might NOT have an idea because it has never been tested this way.  M But When Charley/Shirley/mud wrote the stuff, woudln't he have considered thesJ need to set some standards in writing PCSI kits (I believe there is even aN manual that documents how to write PCSI kits), so that any/all PCSI kits would4 be neutral as to running OS root vs target OS root ?  H > The DECwindows support bits are *NOT* a separate product; therefor you: > do not have a product name to use when you install them.  N Are they in a separate .PCSI file ? Or are they all in the same package as the" rest of the VMS operating system ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 21:43:50 GMT-3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)4D Subject: Re: Reinstalling DECwindows after losing it during upgrade?2 Message-ID: <qAKtd.4102$Vp3.1421@news.cpqcorp.net>  - In article <41B75ED2.16A58572@teksavvy.com>, i/ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:c  J >However, if one were to manually issue a product command from the runningF >system without the /REMOTE qualifier, are there still reasons why the >installation wouldn't work ?h  H If you are talking about the DECwindows support bits, the anser is "NO",7 because they are not a product.  Hence you cannot entern  (     $ PRODUCT INSTALL DECWINDOWS_SUPPORT   It is just nonsense to PCSI.   You have to enter        $ PRODUCT INSTALL VMSi or     $ PRODUCT RECONFIGURE VMSe  : I hope it is obvious that that could cause problems on the< running system, yes?  But you are right.  If the ONLY changeB on a RECONFIGURE is to add files that were not previously present,I it just might work.  If you want, try it ON A THROW-AWAY SYSTEM, PLEASE, h and let us know what happens.e    A If you are talking about the DWMOTIF kit, then the answer is YES.b> That should work, even if it is not my preferred way to do it.       B BTW, the original poster has posted that he has his problem fixed.     -- eJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:46:25 GMTc% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>c( Subject: Re: Suggestion for DECW TPU/EVE< Message-ID: <BKJtd.3103$nE7.2277@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message i& news:41B73E0D.39556815@teksavvy.com... > John Vottero wrote:tE >> I wrote a utility that does something like that.  It's basically alG >> replacement for the EDIT/TPU (or LSEDIT) command except, instead of g >> startinguL >> an editor, it finds an editor that's using your X display and tells it to >> open the file you specified.e >tK > Ok, you've got my attention. How does one utility "tell" an X program to c > open > a specific file ?L9 > (or to de-iconify another application for that matter).:  L You tell an X program to do something by finding it's window and sending it  key presses.  K The command line utility parses the command line, builds the list of files  M to be opened and then sends the editor a Ctrl/Shift/F6.  The editor uses the  L TPU call_user to get into C code which uses X cut and paste routines to get - the list of files from the command line tool..  1 I've posted QuickED including the source code at:w  ! http://www.mvpsi.com/quicked.html   + so you can have a look and see how it worksy  3 There are a couple other free OpenVMS utilities at:y   http://www.mvpsi.com/free.html   >uK > However, this still isn't as cool as being able to drag a filename to TPUlM > because your utility sicne you'd still needto type a command and cut/paste i > they9 > filename, instead of just dragging the filename to TPU.   J I did have the Edit command working from Filevue but, I don't use the new J Motif GUI file manager so I've never tried to customize that.  I've never G done anything with drag and drop under Motif but, it can't be too hard.a   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Dec 2004 18:42:30 -0800h" From: chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk( Subject: Re: TK50 cartridge resurrectionB Message-ID: <1102560150.479279.24340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>  F One problem we used to have with TK50s was that the tape would pile upF on the wrong side of the cartridge. Sometimes brand new ones came thatC way. Looking at some I have here, I think there should be a 1mm gapaF between the tape and the toothed wheel you see when you open the flap.D Compare the one you have that worked with those that don't. I forgetF what the precise symptoms were, but the drive sure didn't like 'em theB wrong way round. It could be that the ones you have that get a bit> further each time are relayering themselves. With some earlierD cartridge types, you had to "condition" them by winding the tape allG the way forward and back (which you seem to have been doing by hand :-)r  G The fix was to hold the tape horizontally and thump it down onto a flatdA surface a few times until the tape was positioned correctly. Thisi, sounds a bit drastic, but it got them going.  D But given the age of your tapes, you may simply have dropouts and/orE writethrough. If they're just DEC distribution kits, I wouldn't worryeA too much, there are plenty of people here who can supply you withh copies if need be.   Chrisn   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Dec 2004 12:49:22 -0800  From: bob@instantwhip.come1 Subject: Which MPACK for 7.1 VMS alpha and where? B Message-ID: <1102538962.367186.14300@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  , which version of mpack at the following site) of 1.5 is needed to run on vms alpha 7.1?s. is it the single one or one of the many in the, old directory ... also will NBL work on 7.1?0 or is their somewhere else to download this that has better directions?  # ftp://ftp.andrew.cmu.edu/pub/mpack/-   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.682 ************************