0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 06 Feb 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 73      Contents: CVS on VMS problem Re: CVS on VMS problem Re: CVS on VMS problem Re: CVS on VMS problem@ Re: DECserver(tm) Trade-Up Promotion ~ Now through June 30, 2004 Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Heads up on the latest UCX ECO Re: Hobbyist questions?  Re: Hobbyist questions?  Re: Hobbyist questions?  Re: Hobbyist questions? P Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance on Itaniu? Re: Is Encompass a member of Interex (was : Hobbyist questions) ? Re: Is Encompass a member of Interex (was : Hobbyist questions) ( Re: Just making sure that  you are aware) Re: LK401-AA keyboard - no PS2 connector. ) Re: LK401-AA keyboard - no PS2 connector. @ OpenVMS  vs unix security ... still waiting Andrew for response! Re: Oracle 9.2.0.2 installC Re: Oracle ships 10g database, cuts price  <-- Oracle RDB too ????? C Re: Oracle ships 10g database, cuts price  <-- Oracle RDB too ????? C Re: Oracle ships 10g database, cuts price  <-- Oracle RDB too ?????  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Technical Journal @ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems/ Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! P Re: WG: [local-cert] [Sun][Other] Schwachstellen in pfexec() und tcsetattr() - S Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? [MOZILLA] What's current ? Re: [MOZILLA] What's current ? Re: [MOZILLA] What's current ? Re: [MOZILLA] What's current ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:01:36 +0100 7 From: Robert Trawinski <robert.trawinski@softax.com.pl>  Subject: CVS on VMS problem / Message-ID: <bvvl5h$686$1@bozon2.softax.com.pl>    Hi all,   C We use in our projects CVS client for VMS (version 1.11.2) . Local  ! source tree I have on ODS-5 disk. I Procces'  parse style is EXTENDED. But when I fetch OpenSSL files errors   occur.  In OpenSSL source tree1 there are multidot files. And that's the problem.   . Did anyone has the same problem? Any solution?   Thanks in advance,   Robert.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 06:53:34 -0500 ' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>  Subject: Re: CVS on VMS problem 1 Message-ID: <_O2dnVylr_TfHb7dRVn-gQ@adelphia.com>    Robert Trawinski wrote:   	 > Hi all,  > E > We use in our projects CVS client for VMS (version 1.11.2) . Local  # > source tree I have on ODS-5 disk. D > Procces'  parse style is EXTENDED. But when I fetch OpenSSL files ' > errors occur.  In OpenSSL source tree 3 > there are multidot files. And that's the problem.  > 1 > Did anyone has the same problem? Any solution?    F I fixed this problem in CVS client a while ago. I think this modified 7 version of the client maybe shipping in GNV now. Steve?    Colin.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 07:59:45 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: CVS on VMS problem 3 Message-ID: <CvGATTYcaxFD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <bvvl5h$686$1@bozon2.softax.com.pl>, Robert Trawinski <robert.trawinski@softax.com.pl> writes: 	 > Hi all,  > E > We use in our projects CVS client for VMS (version 1.11.2) . Local  # > source tree I have on ODS-5 disk. K > Procces'  parse style is EXTENDED. But when I fetch OpenSSL files errors    > occur.  In OpenSSL source tree3 > there are multidot files. And that's the problem.  > 0 > Did anyone has the same problem? Any solution? >   F    CVS does not properly make use of all of ODS-5's capabilities.  TheH    VMS client probably assumes ODS-2.  I've had the same problems tryingE    to fetch files with blanks in their names, even though I have many 2    other programs which work fine with such files.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:20:09 +0100 7 From: Robert Trawinski <robert.trawinski@softax.com.pl>  Subject: Re: CVS on VMS problem / Message-ID: <c00erq$djj$1@bozon2.softax.com.pl>    Colin Blake wrote: > Robert Trawinski wrote:  > 
 >> Hi all, >>F >> We use in our projects CVS client for VMS (version 1.11.2) . Local $ >> source tree I have on ODS-5 disk.E >> Procces'  parse style is EXTENDED. But when I fetch OpenSSL files  ( >> errors occur.  In OpenSSL source tree4 >> there are multidot files. And that's the problem. >>2 >> Did anyone has the same problem? Any solution?  >  > H > I fixed this problem in CVS client a while ago. I think this modified 9 > version of the client maybe shipping in GNV now. Steve?    I don't see CVS in GVN  C http://h71000.www7.hp.com/opensource/gnvreadme_first.html#heading_2    Robert   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 08:20:35 GMT < From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann)I Subject: Re: DECserver(tm) Trade-Up Promotion ~ Now through June 30, 2004 0 Message-ID: <bvvioj$ono$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  q In article <857e9e41.0402050833.1c7784d2@posting.google.com>, susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) writes: = >From now until June 30, 2004, Digital Networks is offering a A >substantial credit toward the purchase of a new DECserver(tm) or ? >CServer product when you trade-in any one of our DECserver(tm)  >products listed below.  > - >Model                           Part Number  " >DECserver 200           DSRVB-**   J We have a few of these lingering in our basement. So if you need one for a) trade-in and pay for the shipping cost...    Regards,    Christoph Gartmann    --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452   ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de   D-79011  Freiburg, Germany 9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 03:18:03 -0500( From: "Mark Buda" <budaNO@SPAMyahoo.com># Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? 1 Message-ID: <NeudnSJ0DOSz1L7d4p2dnA@adelphia.com>   K "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message 0 news:40186E52.3CAA9319@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net...E > > I would expect "16" or "128" or "UNLIMITED" as an reply, not just  "TRUE".   K I would suggest talking to engineering and asking for this behavior.  It is E quite possible that a  {SET/GET}LMI API could be implemented.  :-)  I H suggest someone take a look at a recent FT release for IA64 and see what" system services have been added...   mark   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:06:13 +0000 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> # Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? * Message-ID: <40239145.7060906@bigpond.com>   Mark Buda espoused: M > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message 2 > news:40186E52.3CAA9319@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net... > D >>>I would expect "16" or "128" or "UNLIMITED" as an reply, not just > 	 > "TRUE".  > M > I would suggest talking to engineering and asking for this behavior.  It is G > quite possible that a  {SET/GET}LMI API could be implemented.  :-)  I J > suggest someone take a look at a recent FT release for IA64 and see what$ > system services have been added... >  > mark  H A documented and supported API would be nice... see a discussion on this+ topic around Mid December on the itrc site. D It shouldn't be all that hard -- I ended up writing some code to getE what I needed, it's not rocket science once you know how it all hangs G together.  (But then it is undocumented and therefore subject to change  without notice.)   Regards, Dave.  --  I David B Sneddon (dbs)    VMS Systems Programmer     dbsneddon@bigpond.com I Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/ I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm I "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennon    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 12:02:04 -0600 B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)' Subject: Heads up on the latest UCX ECO 3 Message-ID: <MRs6vUFDGkks@eisner.encompasserve.org>   F Now that it's been published in the latest ECO notes, I thought that IF would draw your attention to this in case spammers are looking out for these kinds of things:  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ECO I	20-AUG-2003	Alpha and VAX   	 	Problem:   C 	A problem exists in the anti-SPAM route-through check which allows 9 	a SPAMmer to trick the SMTP receiver into relaying SPAM.    	Deliverables:  " 	TCPIP$SMTP_RECIVER.EXE			V5.3-18I   	Reference:   ? 	PTR 70-5-2370 / CFS.102136 / Req Id: GB_G07885 / UCX Note 9907  	TCPIP_BUGS Note 2960 H ------------------------------------------------------------------------   Some notes:   B 1) When I did my testing prior to reporting this, I only found oneC infrastructure configuration that was vulnerable; I have no idea if ( this is a popular or rare configuration.  D 2) Just because I only found one configuration vulnerability doesn't mean that there aren't others.  H 3) The SMTP image that was provided to me has been working just fine forB several months in my configuration and is passing my ISP's (Demon)E open relay testing, as well as blocking all the various attempts from  the Internet to relay mail.   K Obviously, I am not going to get into a discussion about what configuration L is vulnerable; if you are on support, you can get that information from your
 local CSC.   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       P SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of most disliked companies   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 09:24:24 GMT 0 From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist questions?/ Message-ID: <c3JUb.186376$5V2.909353@attbi_s53>    Bob Koehler wrote:  U > In article <401b0562_2@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> writes:   < >>Where does one acquire the CD-Roms for VMS 7.3-2 and such?  I >    Anywhere you can get them.  Borrow them from work.  Borrow them from J >    a friend.  Buy them on eBay.  Buy the hobbyist CD where you got your  >    free hobbyist license.     9 If one wanted to run VAX/VMS version 4 or 5, or so, where  would one get those CDs?  - What was the VAXStation 3100 supposed to run?    -- glen    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:13:37 +0100- From: "Winfried Bergmann" <dummy@empuron.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist questions?: Message-ID: <bvvp8i$10oum4$1@ID-170759.news.uni-berlin.de>  C "glen herrmannsfeldt" <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> schrieb im Newsbeitrag ) news:c3JUb.186376$5V2.909353@attbi_s53...  > Bob Koehler wrote: > < > > In article <401b0562_2@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> writes: > > > >>Where does one acquire the CD-Roms for VMS 7.3-2 and such? > K > >    Anywhere you can get them.  Borrow them from work.  Borrow them from K > >    a friend.  Buy them on eBay.  Buy the hobbyist CD where you got your  > >    free hobbyist license.  >  > ; > If one wanted to run VAX/VMS version 4 or 5, or so, where  > would one get those CDs? > / > What was the VAXStation 3100 supposed to run?   J I think, it was 5.2 (I have currently running VAX/VMS 5.5-2 on my MicroVax/ 3100/10, but the original installation was 5.2)    ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 07:52:41 -0600 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)   Subject: Re: Hobbyist questions?3 Message-ID: <U8qAORgwaHlZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <c3JUb.186376$5V2.909353@attbi_s53>, glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes: > ; > If one wanted to run VAX/VMS version 4 or 5, or so, where  > would one get those CDs?  F    VMS 4 didn't ship on CDs.  You'ld have to find somebody with a copy    and then copy it to CD.  H    I know several folks who are tracking down old versions of VMS they'dE    like to run.  I don't know of any that are having tons of success.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:50:49 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>   Subject: Re: Hobbyist questions?3 Message-ID: <4023E209.72DCE1EC@applied-synergy.com>    glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >  > Bob Koehler wrote: > W > > In article <401b0562_2@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> writes:  > > > >>Where does one acquire the CD-Roms for VMS 7.3-2 and such? > K > >    Anywhere you can get them.  Borrow them from work.  Borrow them from K > >    a friend.  Buy them on eBay.  Buy the hobbyist CD where you got your  > >    free hobbyist license.  > ; > If one wanted to run VAX/VMS version 4 or 5, or so, where  > would one get those CDs? > / > What was the VAXStation 3100 supposed to run?   C IIRC, the VAXstation 3100 model 30/40 was introduced with VMS 5.1B.   D "Big" data disk support (over 1GB) required VMS 5.3-2 (maybe 5.3-1).  2 These machines are extremely solid with VMS 5.5-2.  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  C Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com     Fax: 817-237-3074    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:28:23 +0000 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> Y Subject: Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance on Itaniu 0 Message-ID: <bvvq87$5ac$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rick Jones wrote: R > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > @ >>You seem to have forgotten that SPARC has ~12000+ applications" >>supported on it Itanium has ~500 >  > E > I believe your figure for Itanium applications is out of date.  The H > number as of January 2004 is 1797 and counting based on what I've been' > told/given after asking around a bit.  >   @ You appear to be  talking about IVS' who are commited to doing a@ port and you appear to have added the apps for all the platforms     regards  Andrew Harrison  > rick jones   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 02:38:59 -0800 . From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)H Subject: Re: Is Encompass a member of Interex (was : Hobbyist questions)= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0402060238.215bb591@posting.google.com>   o Clay M. Denton <denton@orison.dsserv.com> wrote in message news:<40p420lk04vmag317j0ggbe8h76kbentjv@4ax.com>... R > I don't want to have a discussion over any organizations use of marketing terms. > N > The 3 organizations you have listed are separate corporations, with separateO > membership bases, representing different portions of the "HP User Community".  >  > Clay  M What mess ! Like the Open Source world, each group goes to a specific side !  8 Why not merge them ? Oh, I forgot.. too much politics !    Regards    FC     > I > On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:44:56 +0100, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote:  >  > >http://www.encompassus.org/! > >"Encompass, an HP User Group".  > > # > >http://www.interex.org/home.html M > >"Interex, the International HP Customer Community, is an independent, not  R > >for-profit association providing information, education, and advocacy services " > >to members all over the world". > >  > >http://www.hp-interex.org/ M > >"HP-Interex EMEA, the newly-formed federation of HP user groups in Europe  S > >resulting from the merger of the Compaq Users Organisation EMEA (formerly DECUS  M > >Europe) and interex Europe (the HP Enterprise User Group), represents the  S > >largest body of Enterprise System Users in the EMEA region, uniting over 70 000   > >IT professionals".  > > " > >EMEA today, Worldwide tomorrow.N > >Tell us how an HP User Group could not be a member of the International HP  > >Customer Community, Clay. > >  > >D.  > >  > >  > >Clay M. Denton wrote:; > >> Encompass and Interex are VERY separate organizations.  > >>   > >> Clay Denton
 > >> Director  > >> Encompass US, Inc.  > >>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:31:07 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>H Subject: Re: Is Encompass a member of Interex (was : Hobbyist questions)) Message-ID: <4023C14B.1439CD06@istop.com>    "Clay M. Denton" wrote:  > R > I don't want to have a discussion over any organizations use of marketing terms.  J Well, perhaps members would like you to have such a discussion. If you areK going to remain a separate entity devoted to ex-Digital products, why don't L you go back to using the "DECUS" name  on a worldwide basis and forget about6 that Compaq-induced self-destruct renaming stupidity ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:54:10 +0100- From: "Martin Vorlaender" <mv@pdv-systeme.de> 1 Subject: Re: Just making sure that  you are aware 9 Message-ID: <bvvkmv$10hift$1@ID-56200.news.uni-berlin.de>    Sue Skonetski wrote:F > If you go to the OpenVMS home page there is a button that will allow< > you to get a 30% discount on all books from Digital Press.E > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/ this 30% disount will be until April 15.   & Thanks a lot for making me aware, Sue.  A However, if I do visit the DigitalPress bookstore coming from the @ VMS homepage, and put the System Management book into my cart, I only see a 20% discount:     Item: 1555582435
   Quantity: 1 .   Description: OpenVMS System Management Guide   Unit Price: GBP 34.99    Promo Disc.: GBP 7.00    ... E   You received a discount of GBP 7.00 because you visited us from HP.     ( 30% of GBP 34.99 is GBP 10.50, isn't it?   cu,    Martin --  @   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  OpenVMS rules!3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 09:12:42 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>2 Subject: Re: LK401-AA keyboard - no PS2 connector.0 Message-ID: <40235A8A.1FDAE4FC@sture.homeip.net>   Ken Fairfield wrote: >  > Paul Sture wrote: H > > My LK461-A2, with PS2 plug is dead. I have a spare LK401-AA keyboardJ > > which is like new, but unfortunately has an MMJ? style plug which fits" > > my trusty old VAXstation 3100. > [...]  > : >     Seems to me just about every AlphaServer was shipped> > with a keyboard, whether it was needed or not (usually not).> > There must be tons of unused LK461 and LK462 keyboards to be: > had for the taking (they're only about US$50 _list_ from> > HP/Compaq/Digital).  I saved two brand new LK462's, still in> > bubble pack, from going to the dumpster for use at home (one< > as a spare for 10 years hence when the first one dies :-). >   0 Thanks, you've given me an idea of where to ask.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 09:15:15 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>2 Subject: Re: LK401-AA keyboard - no PS2 connector.0 Message-ID: <40235B22.58E07785@sture.homeip.net>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > _ > In article <402235D7.612B7424@sture.homeip.net>, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes: G > >My LK461-A2, with PS2 plug is dead. I have a spare LK401-AA keyboard I > >which is like new, but unfortunately has an MMJ? style plug which fits ! > >my trusty old VAXstation 3100.  > ; > And in VT4xx and VT5xx and VAXstation 4000 and DEC3000...  > F > >Before I try taking the keyboards apart to see if I can simply swap( > >cables, I though I'd try asking here. > > J > >Has anyone managed to do this, or I do I need to hunt down a converter?C > >And yes, I've had a look at the VMS FAQ, but didn't see anything  > >obvious.  > K > I don't see any chance for swapping cables (or for a converter). They are H > totally different inside. An USB-to-PS2 converter is only a mechanicalI > device, the electronic inside the keyboard supports both interfaces and K > switches the mode. You currently find only USB-to-PS2 converters, not the J > other way round, ie the most effective way to avoid people trying to use, > older non-usb keyboards on USB interfaces. >   9 Thanks. That saves me wasting time on pulling them apart.   O > As for the other keyboard interface type (MMJ-to-PS2 converter), I don't know  > but I doubt, too.  >  > -Peter > L > PS: In case anyone has spare (108key US style) LK463, LK462, LK461, LK411.N > I do need 3 of them and I want to avoid buying new ones for over $100/piece.* > Best would be 2 PS2 and 1 USB (or 3 PS2)   Noted.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 10:06:07 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)I Subject: OpenVMS  vs unix security ... still waiting Andrew for response! = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0402061006.404a9786@posting.google.com>   C Yes, but first redesign and rewrite your unix to cleanly catagorize  and separateF Kernel Mode from Supervisor Mode and from User Mode. Three modes are a minimum D for a correct ring protection system. The use of three or more rings
 happens toC be a fully patented methodology by OpenVMS Engineering. OpenVMS has  four. E OpenVMS also has 40 groups of higher mode functionality classified as 	 requiring  special named privileges.    And, then...  6  - allow access to higher mode services only through a DESCRIPTOR-basedD    calling standard which rules out "by design" the primary cause of securityE    holes - buffer-overflows. The secure Calling Standard is a central  design    theme in OpenVMS.  F  - rewrite and install your TCP/IP stack so that it doesn't live in orB    directly access kernel mode services except through the calling	 standard. @    If the previous condition was met, your tcp/ip stack probablyD    won't work in Supervisor mode or User Mode without these changes.B    This is the reason why most security holes for which OpenVMS isA    affected does not in fact lead to a security vulnerability. In F    this sense I agree with Andrew. Security vulnerability listings are9    innaccurate for OpenVMS. Because they do not correctly 
 differentiate E    whether only a user-mode process can be affected or a higher mode, D    and whether a higher privilege can be attained. A correct listing>    must rate the severity of the security hole. In OpenVMS the severityE    is usually lower (or meaningless) in comparison to other operating     systems.   F  - design privilege assignments to be attached to a mode. If a programC    installed in a higher mode breaks out to a user-mode prompt. All C    privileges assigned during the program run must be automatically  lost. C    This prevents program privilege tailgating. OpenVMS Hackers (yes  they>    do exist, an admirably persistent if unsuccessful lot) have recently9    discovered this functionality in OpenVMS, inwhich they 
 intentionally F    installed an application with privileges and with a buffer overflow leading E    to a DCL prompt. Their experiment failed. This OpenVMS "knockdown" A    functionality can also be extended to disable the privilege of ?    receiving a DCL Prompt when breaking out of a program or DCL 
 procedure,E    just by assigning the CAPTIVE and RESTRICT flags to user accounts.   @  - design your Unix to provide only strictly separated (and from overflow?    controlled) user and system stacks to prevent stack crashing  leading &    to access to higher mode functions.  F  - lets also not forget a redesign of the internal logon  mechanism to    be carried out by one  @ These are only a few of the unique, patented design decisions in OpenVMS C resulting in a world-beating matrix of Functionality, Reliability,  D Availability, Security, Stability, and Scalability(RT, APMP, SMP andF Cluster). It's an OS that was "Designed" first by 4 competing teams of experts,E and then the best results of these competing design teams merged into  a ? final design team. They knew of the older Unix, MVS and Multics  designs, andD naturally they innovated and improved on them for the Enterprise OS  problem space.  A When you are done making these elementary design changes to Unix  A (many of which were intentionally excluded or ignored by the Unix 	 designers F in 1969 - Multics already had early forms many of them) you will find A most of the commercial products on the Unix Market will no longer  functionF correctly on your New-Unix, and will also require a redesign, and then
 a rewrite.  ? But at least you will finally have an OS and TCP/IP stack which @ "begins" to technically compare with OpenVMS within the frame of	 security. F And you'll have a product which pays royalties to OpenVMS Engineering.  F Each OS has it's strengths and weaknesses in design and implementationE which will have a different evaluation depending on the problem space ? it will be applied to, and depending on the design goals of the 
 designers.> For the general Enterprise OS problem space, I believe OpenVMS Engineering ; has most consistently made the best decisions in design and  implemented ? them with an admirably consistent high quality and methodology.   E OpenVMS enthusiasts can righteously bemoan that the Computer Science  A Profession (Informatics) have failed to recognize and teach their  studentsC the sophisticated mechanisms and high principals found in OpenVMS,  D preferring instead to favoritize the minimalistic asthetics of Unix,E or the marketing level sophistication in OS selection. This is a real > loss for enterpise efficiency (money), mission-critical system	 stability F (lives), and the computer science profession (maturity as a science). @ A more balanced and impartial framework of scientific thought is needed. F Computer Science needs some independence from commercial and marketing> interests to even discover the value of many existing designs, technologiesD and ideas. The last major papers over OS design were written over 10/ years ago, but their work is far from complete.   A Critics of OpenVMS should first study and compare it's internals  E (Professional OS comparisons and choices should not be reduced to an  A application layer beauty contest) with an open mind concering OS  > design paradigms, system operations principals and reliability methodologies.A After recovering from the shock, they will likely no longer be as 	 critical.   E Excuse me. I just noticed I didn't finish writing the last condition.  It should read...   F  - lets also not forget a redesign of the internal logon  mechanism toF    be carried out by one program/process first created at user request and =    has complete responsibility for the entire login sequence.   @ By the way, that was not by any means a complete list of OpenVMS, design advantages.  It was only a beginning.  E Excuse me one last time, I have checked my sources and find I need to D change one sentence of my earlier Email. The sentence should read...  =    It's an OS that was "Designed" by experts first producing  >    four design iterations, and then the best results of these ?    designs were carried over into a  final design by "The Blue      Ribbon Committee".   C I had thought to have read that the original 4 designs were by four @ competing teams, but I can no longer find a source for this. TheE essential message remains unchanged. OpenVMS was carefully "Designed" ( by experienced operating system experts.  E I'm not interested in changing history for any purpose. I do stand by 3 my other statements and opinions made in the email.      Cheers!    Keith Cayemberg ) IBM Business Services - Hannover, Germany    Semi-Nonstandard Disclaimer:3 Any non-official claims concerning my semi-official + opinions are hereby officially disclaimed.    i.e. I said it, not my employer.0 (and no I didn't steal this one from Yogi Berra)  ? I welcome rebuttal, however a lack of response on my part only  > indicates a lack discretionary time to indulge in discussions ' peripheral to my employment activities.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:45:23 +01003 From: "Maarten van Breemen" <van.breemen@hccnet.nl> # Subject: Re: Oracle 9.2.0.2 install ; Message-ID: <40235474$0$152$6c56d894@diablo.nl.easynet.net>   3 "Carmine" <magalettac@massdor.com> wrote in message 7 news:4093a3af.0402041250.33e70cd6@posting.google.com...  > Hi,  > E > I am in the process of installing ORacle9i onto a VMS Alpha system. 3 > I believe I have all the requirements up to snuff  > VMS 7.3-1 	 > UCX 5.3 
 > ODS-5 disks  > Motif  > and sysgen params look ok  >   0 Also, do not forget OpenVMS ECO VMS731_RMS-V0100   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:20:12 +0100  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>L Subject: Re: Oracle ships 10g database, cuts price  <-- Oracle RDB too ?????- Message-ID: <bvvpou$1tvo$1@news.cybercity.dk>    Jonas Lindholm wrote: E > Rdb was running on NT (around 97). I've one copy at home on CD that 
 > works well. D > You could take an RMU backup on VMS, transfer the backup to NT and  > restore it and run. Very cool. >   C It is still available for download on the OracleRdb downloads page.   H But sadly, CompaQ desupported the BLISS compiler for Intel/NT and f***edL Oracle over.  Oracle released the product and had to withraw it because theyH were in the position of having built a product on a compiler that was noI longer available and the product thus unsupportable in the long run - and L CompaQ/Cappellas decided that they would not sell the compiler to Oracle orJ was it a $1m price tag - I forget which.  In any case, Capellas was in theJ process of getting CompaQ sold to HP and becoming a defacto division of MS3 so screwing Oracle made him look good to BG and CF.      > /Jonas >  > Daryl Jones wrote: >> Dear Fabio Cardoso: >>H >> Oracle Rdb will run on VMS, OpenVMS, and Unix (maybe NT?). Therefore,E >> making Rdb apart of VMS would not be cost worthy. Yes, once upon a E >> time, VMS and Rdb run-time kernel was tied together(DTM?). at that H >> time, Rdb name was Rdb/VMS. This was when the VMS license was $30,000F >> and so was(I believe) the price of the Rdb development license. RdbB >> back then was bringing in about $100 million a year in for DEC.G >> However, Palmer started to sell off DEC assets. Therefore, Rdb, CDD, D >> and related products were sold to Oracle. I always thought by nowF >> Oracle would have move everyone over to its databases, Oracle RDBMSB >> 7,8,8i,9i, and now Oracle 10g. As you can see, Oracle Rdb still	 >> exists # >> with its current version of 7.x.  >> >> Regards,  >> Daryl Jones >>< >> fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) wrote in message< >> news:<f30679fb.0402041522.4c5cee0c@posting.google.com>... >>2 >>> "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageJ >>> news:<xVaUb.130724$9Ce1.54975@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... >>>  >>>> Malcolm Dunnett wrote:  >>>>B >>>>> In article <f30679fb.0402040128.4659871@posting.google.com>,6 >>>>> fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes: >>>>>  >>>>>> Click >>>>>>@ >>>>>> http://news.com.com/2100-7344_3-5152672.html?tag=nefd_top >>>>>> >>>>>>F >>>>>> Oracle announced the availability of its Oracle 10g database onH >>>>>> Tuesday and cut prices, in an effort to gain more customers among >>>>>> midsize businesses. >>>>>>C >>>>>> As previously reported by CNET News.com, Oracle released the E >>>>>> Unix and Linux versions of its Oracle 10g database and dropped @ >>>>>> the price of its entry-level database to about $5,000 perB >>>>>> processor, matching the cost of Microsoft's SQL Server 2000> >>>>>> database. A Windows version of Oracle 10g is slated forD >>>>>> completion in a "few weeks," according to company executives. >>>>>> (...) >>>>>> >>>>> F >>>>>   Do they say somewhere what the difference is between "Standard >>>>> Edition One"H >>>>> and "Standard Edition"? The only thing I can see is that "Standard >>>>> Edition One"G >>>>> supports a maximum of 2 processors in a server ( vs unlimited for 
 >>>>> "SE" ).  >>>>> H >>>>>   Any indication they will release "Standard Edition One" for VMS? >>>>> Right now D >>>>> it only says "Windows, Linux and Unix". None of our VMS Oracle >>>>> servers haveE >>>>> more than 2 processors so I'd hate to be spending an additional  >>>>> $10k per* >>>>> processor just to run Oracle on VMS. >>>>>uH >>>>>  (note to Sue et al - it would be very supportive for the "low-end
 >>>>> VMS"? >>>>> market if Oracle could be encouraged to make this product~ >>>>> available on VMS ) >>>>C >>>> A far cry from the days of Rdb run-time included with NAS 200,a4 >>>> which IIRC was included with every VMS licence. >>>o; >>> What Oracle gains retaining RDB ?  It should be bundled 7 >>> with OpenVMS autmatically and Oracle could sell ther1 >>> other products for the customer side ! Etc...t6 >>> How is the cost of  RDB developemnt for Oracle and  >>> how much it worth for them ? >>>s >>> Regardsm >>>  >>> FC   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:20:40 +0100  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>L Subject: Re: Oracle ships 10g database, cuts price  <-- Oracle RDB too ?????- Message-ID: <bvvppo$1u08$1@news.cybercity.dk>t   John Smith wrote:D > Fabio Cardoso wrote:8 >> Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> wrote in message/ >> news:<40225182.1B1EA40D@sture.homeip.net>...O >>> Dr. Dweeb wrote: >>>> >>>> Daryl Jones wrote:h >>>>> Dear Fabio Cardoso:i >>>>>p@ >>>>> Oracle Rdb will run on VMS, OpenVMS, and Unix (maybe NT?).G >>>>> Therefore, making Rdb apart of VMS would not be cost worthy. Yes,e< >>>>> once upon a time, VMS and Rdb run-time kernel was tiedG >>>>> together(DTM?). at that time, Rdb name was Rdb/VMS. This was when H >>>>> the VMS license was $30,000 and so was(I believe) the price of theG >>>>> Rdb development license. Rdb back then was bringing in about $100hH >>>>> million a year in for DEC. However, Palmer started to sell off DECD >>>>> assets. Therefore, Rdb, CDD, and related products were sold toE >>>>> Oracle. I always thought by now Oracle would have move everyone H >>>>> over to its databases, Oracle RDBMS 7,8,8i,9i, and now Oracle 10g.F >>>>> As you can see, Oracle Rdb still exists with its current version
 >>>>> of 7.x.- >>>> >>>> Rdb Current Version 7.1.x >>>>H >>>> While Rdb has been under a cloud recently, it has historically beenB >>>> a very good performer for the Oracle Corporation according toG >>>> heresay evidence. There are a plethora of reasons why Rdb users douD >>>> not want to move to OracleClassic database.  The main ones are; >>>>H >>>> * Administration - Rdb is an order og magnitude easier to setup and >>>> administer.B >>>> * Performance - For a large class of TP applications Rdb is a >>>> measurably better solutionsG >>>> * 3rd. party apps. - TP applications you have probably never heard-> >>>> of running very critical, 24*7 systems with zero downtimeB >>>> requirements provided by 3rd party providers - it is doubtfulG >>>> whether these applications will even run on Oracle classic, so thetD >>>> chances of them being ported is low. * The products are in someG >>>> ways mutually exclusive as a deployment database, so flipping fromkG >>>> Rdb to Oracle Classic is not a no-brainer * Bad experience - There A >>>> is a body of emprical evidence suggesting that Rdb to OraclesH >>>> classic conversions are unlikely to be the success their proponents6 >>>> hope. * OracleRdb is a better product technically >>>> >>> E >>> * Hot backups too. I know of one large application where the main ? >>> show stopper for migration away from VMS is that very issue0 >> >>> >> We are using Hot Stanby and its working fine too ! But ... >>A >> When was the last Ad / News of Oracle RDB in Oracle Magazine ?r >c >aD > About the same time the last ad for OpenVMS was done by Digital  - > 1992 I think   :-(   Never I think.   Dweeb.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:46:51 +010019 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>cL Subject: Re: Oracle ships 10g database, cuts price  <-- Oracle RDB too ?????' Message-ID: <4023709B.8D047A83@aaa.com>u  J > But sadly, CompaQ desupported the BLISS compiler for Intel/NT and f***edN > Oracle over.  Oracle released the product and had to withraw it because theyJ > were in the position of having built a product on a compiler that was noK > longer available and the product thus unsupportable in the long run - andmN > CompaQ/Cappellas decided that they would not sell the compiler to Oracle or* > was it a $1m price tag - I forget which.  1 And, besides, BLISS is freeware today, isn't it ?f  	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:45:15 +0000oO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>W" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars0 Message-ID: <bvvr7r$5ac$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote: >  oI > We're sorry, but we are unable to process your request to configure the Q > identified product. The link to the product you selected is temporarily broken..N > This product should be accessible shortly. If time is of the essence, we ask: > that you call us at and talk to a sales representative.  > P > Please use your browser's "back" button to return to the previous page and, if' > appropriate, make another selection. v >  e >   : Just do the config Rob and stop BSing, including support a; PowerEdge 6550 with 4 x 2.8 GHz CPU's and 8 GB of RAM costsi $30120.s   Regardso Andrew Harrisonj   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 07:46:29 -0800 1 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)  Subject: Technical Journal< Message-ID: <857e9e41.0402060746.3abb72a@posting.google.com>   Dear folks,i  F The newest technical journal is on the VMS web site.  At this time theB combined PDF is not available, however the individual articles areF there.  The articles are excellent and in my opinion probably the best
 issue yet.  
 Warm Regards,d Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:43:19 +0000 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>-I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems 0 Message-ID: <bvvr47$5ac$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:i > In article <bvr8j0$gub$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >  >>Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>>In article <bvb6av$oet$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:R >>>  >>>e >>>>The same applies to EAL. >>>J >>>1J >>>   Nope.  I don't get my warm fuzzies by reading other people's supportI >>>   of my posts.  I get them by knowing what I'm doing.  EAL is a joke..+ >>>   Nothing you can say will change that.M >>> & >>>   A point you always seem to miss. >>>u >> >a> > Andrew you don't seem to have a firm grasp of this yourself. >    Ohh I doG > There are NO equivalent of B1/B2/B3 or for that matter C2 EAL levels.a > EAL is the evaluation level. I; > The requirements are specified in the protection profile.  >   : So an OS certified to EAl4/LSPP would be equivalent to B1.  6 > The CAPP profile is supposed to be equivalent to C2.6 > The LSPP profile is supposed to be equivalent to B1.   Regards@ Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:07:46 GMTW" From: GreyCloud <mist@Cumulus.com>8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!7 Message-ID: <CRPUb.627$ss.22000@bcandid.telisphere.com>    Fabio Cardoso wrote:w > "David Barnes" <david@nospam-bitsolve.com> wrote in message news:<uIvSb.1669$W37.16152730@news-text.cableinet.net>...l > E >>>Multiple times the idea of purchasing/saving/rescuing VMS has beenlH >>>floated on this newsgroup.  If there was really a serious effort hereH >>>to purchase VMS, why not sound the alarm and get help from all of the >>>loyal troops. >>C >>I would contribute $100 to the cause.. VMS under a GNU licence...d0 >>Er.. methinks Lin#* would be dead in a year... >  > P > GNU ? No thanks ! These people of Open Source (Stallman) are a band of nuts ! M > Just show the attack agains SCO !  Open Source people will kill each other. C > May be we from the OpenVMS world can survive and have benefits ! . > I Are you kidding??  The nutter, Daryl McBride is nothing more than a liar  D and a cheat!  Remember that the company that bought SCO was Caldera B Linux.  Then the company changed their name to SCO.  And besides, F where's McBrides proof??  So far he has shown no proof, but just FUDS 9 the public to jack up SCOX stock prices to make a profit.h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:58:39 +0100( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>Y Subject: Re: WG: [local-cert] [Sun][Other] Schwachstellen in pfexec() und tcsetattr() - S : Message-ID: <MCELKPMOKPMNDNKJNIONCEFPCKAA.win@fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  - On 2004-02-05 16:36, "Bill Gunshannon" wrote:-   > [...]- >-0 > And what does this have to do with VMS?  [...]  O I would like to show, that a system, which did get (other then OpenVMS) an EAL4lO certification, not a secure system is. How is it possible, that a system within:A a normal user can do what he wan't gets a security certification.-   Best regards Rudolf WingertG   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 06:34:24 GMT-' From: nospam <x@wedontwantyourspam.com>-% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?y5 Message-ID: <BC498094.1F237%x@wedontwantyourspam.com>r  J in article 8a646952.0402052103.6555591e@posting.google.com, Daryl Jones at> jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net wrote on 06/02/2004 16:03:   > Dear Richard B. Gilbert: > D > In 1999, I experience at a client site the moving a large ACMS-RdbD > application from a max out VAX 78xx system to a Alpha 8400 where IE > only saw saw drop of cpu utilization go from 100% to 66%. I thoughtbH Oh god how sad. CPU utilization cant be used like that. CPU's are alwaysJ 100% till they halt or power down. %utilization relates to the OS being in% the idle loop.  Your deluded sorry ;)o     C > this was strange since the Interger test comparison was 1800 to 1lG > faster for the Alpha. Therefore, I find your statement that the AlphapA > blows off the doors of the VAX processor not true at that time.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:36:30 +0000rO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> % Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?t0 Message-ID: <bvvu7u$6rp$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:r > Bob Koehler wrote: > C >>   While the performance was gasping it's last breath, cheap RISCVF >>   workstations were close to VAX 9000 performance levels.  Sure theG >>   price/performance was poor, but peak performance was also missing.y >  > J > gasping last breath ? Seems to me that Digital was able to significantlyQ > increase the VAX performance after the start of the decline in the late 1980s. t > K > Secondly, even if vax wasn't a world leader in performance at that stage,eM > proper pricing would still have made it a ideal choice for workstations. It N > was still far more performant than the 8086 desktops. And yes, it would haveM > have to be sold cheaper that the higher performance new kids on the block. e >   B I don't think that would have helped much. I have a SPARCstation 1C sitting under my desk. If you pull it apart and compare it with thesA equivalent VAXstation at the time you could see that there was nofC way that a VAXstation could compete with the SPARCstation on price. B This is because the SPARCstation was much more integrated than the/ VAXstation, many fewer discrete components etc.   D I don't think that Digital had the inclination to sell large numbers of VAXen at less than cost.o   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:35:57 +0000vO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>l% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?-0 Message-ID: <bvvu6t$6rp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:n > Bob Koehler wrote: > D >>   The compelling reason was that DEC did a nose dive when the VAX> >>   simply couldn't keep up with everyone else's performance. >  >  > P > No. The real reason was that Digital did not lower the prices of VAXes quicklyP > enough to maintauin price-performance leadership against the newcomers such as > Apollo and Sun.   3 This definitely applied to workstations but less soo7 to servers because Sun nor Apollo produced servers thatd, matched the VAX servers in terms of RAS etc.  7 The first Sun servers were re-packaged workstations and 5 probably the first "proper" servers from Sun were the47 SPARCcenter 1000/2000's which used the SuperSPARC CPU'sr   Regardsu Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 08:13:25 -0500h3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> % Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?e0 Message-ID: <CsGdnUs6eNtxD77dRVn-uw@comcast.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0900090809060405050208089 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bity  H I did say "using today's technology".   If you built a VAX today, using G the very latest fabrication technology and any design improvements you  F like (must still conform to the VAX Archicture standard), I think the - very best Alphas would blow the doors off it.n  E Also note that "integer performanace" is not quite the same thing as MB performance.  Any real application uses far more than the integer 
 instructions.-  K Was the site with the large ACMS-Rdb application McGraw-Hill by any chance?e   Daryl Jones wrote:   >Dear Richard B. Gilbert:  > C >In 1999, I experience at a client site the moving a large ACMS-Rdb-C >application from a max out VAX 78xx system to a Alpha 8400 where I D >only saw saw drop of cpu utilization go from 100% to 66%. I thoughtB >this was strange since the Interger test comparison was 1800 to 1F >faster for the Alpha. Therefore, I find your statement that the Alpha@ >blows off the doors of the VAX processor not true at that time. >a	 >Regards,_
 >Daryl Jones n >am >"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<svidnWLeioqV773dRVn-ug@comcast.com>....n >  a >5E >>Well, it was many years ago, but I seem to recall that "faster and dG >>cheaper" competing systems were selling like hotcakes and VAXen were tI >>not.  No matter how great the O/S was, the hardware was overpriced and e >>underpowered!V >>E >>There may have been technical considerations as well but there was fK >>definitely a financial reason; they needed faster hardware to run VMS on -I >>in order to sell VMS and the VAX architecture simply could not do it.  mK >>Even using today's technology, the best Alpha chips would blow the doors  , >>off the best VAX chips that could be made.K >>I has been three or four years since I last booted a VAX;  I still own a .J >>VAXstation 4000/VLC and a MicroVAX 3100 but I may never boot either one  >>again  >> >>JF Mezei wrote:d >> >>     >>H >>>>>I personally think a 64-bit extended VAX architecture incorporating7 >>>>>current processor technologies would be dreamy :-)b
 >>>>>      >>>>>s >>>>>          p >>>>> O >>>At the time the decision was made to ditch VAX and develop Alpha, were theredQ >>>compelling technical reasons to do so, or was there a strong marketing urge tou* >>>adopt the then buzzword-du-jour: RISC ? >>>dQ >>>The one argument I had heard was the need to have fixed length instruction setwQ >>>in order to make pipelining etc work better. Does the 8086 have a fixed length. >>>instruction set ? >>>,Q >>>When one looks at what Intel was able to do with the 8086, it makes one wonders- >>>if the same could have been done with VAX.  >>>a( >>>What was the fastest VAX chip made ?  >>>. >>> P >>>Also, if, for my birthday, Sue were to give me the rights and all designs forL >>>VAX architecture, could I go to TI, IBM or Intel and ask them to FAB me a  >>>couple thousands VAX chips ?  >>> M >>>If, during the last fab, they clocked the VAX at say 200mhz,  if I were to J >>>provide the same designs today, but have it fabbed using the latest andP >>>greatest process, could the mhz be cranked up significantly because the chip,G >>>albeit the same phsyical size as before, would be manufacturerd with / >>>significantly better precision than before ?  >>>  >>>a	 >>>        >>>: >>-- >>     >>  & --------------090009080906040505020808) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">  <html> <head>I   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">n   <title></title>s </head>n' <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">cN I did say <i><b>"using today's technology".&nbsp;&nbsp; </b></i>If you built aF VAX today, using the very latest fabrication technology and any design? improvements you like (must still conform to the VAX Archicture H standard), I think the very best Alphas would blow the doors off it.<br> <br>D Also note that "integer performanace" is not quite the same thing asF performance.&nbsp; Any real application uses far more than the integer instructions.<br>6 <br>C Was the site with the large ACMS-Rdb application McGraw-Hill by anyu chance?<br>s <br> Daryl Jones wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite"$;  cite="mid8a646952.0402052103.6555591e@posting.google.com">:'   <pre wrap="">Dear Richard B. Gilbert:e  B In 1999, I experience at a client site the moving a large ACMS-RdbB application from a max out VAX 78xx system to a Alpha 8400 where IC only saw saw drop of cpu utilization go from 100% to 66%. I thought A this was strange since the Interger test comparison was 1800 to 1 E faster for the Alpha. Therefore, I find your statement that the Alphay? blows off the doors of the VAX processor not true at that time.c   Regards, Daryl Jones   "Richard B. Gilbert" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net">&lt;rgilbert88@comcast.net&gt;</a> wrote in message news:<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:svidnWLeioqV773dRVn-ug@comcast.com">&lt;svidnWLeioqV773dRVn-ug@comcast.com&gt;</a>...    </pre>   <blockquote type="cite">T     <pre wrap="">Well, it was many years ago, but I seem to recall that "faster and E cheaper" competing systems were selling like hotcakes and VAXen were -G not.  No matter how great the O/S was, the hardware was overpriced and a
 underpowered!m  C There may have been technical considerations as well but there was  I definitely a financial reason; they needed faster hardware to run VMS on  G in order to sell VMS and the VAX architecture simply could not do it.  sI Even using today's technology, the best Alpha chips would blow the doors ?* off the best VAX chips that could be made.I I has been three or four years since I last booted a VAX;  I still own a rH VAXstation 4000/VLC and a MicroVAX 3100 but I may never boot either one  againh   JF Mezei wrote:   
     </pre>     <blockquote type="cite">       <blockquote type="cite">          <blockquote type="cite">Z           <pre wrap="">I personally think a 64-bit extended VAX architecture incorporating2 current processor technologies would be dreamy :-)      h             </pre>         </blockquote>o       </blockquote> _       <pre wrap="">At the time the decision was made to ditch VAX and develop Alpha, were there0N compelling technical reasons to do so, or was there a strong marketing urge to' adopt the then buzzword-du-jour: RISC ?D  N The one argument I had heard was the need to have fixed length instruction setN in order to make pipelining etc work better. Does the 8086 have a fixed length instruction set ?M  N When one looks at what Intel was able to do with the 8086, it makes one wonder* if the same could have been done with VAX.  % What was the fastest VAX chip made ? t    M Also, if, for my birthday, Sue were to give me the rights and all designs for I VAX architecture, could I go to TI, IBM or Intel and ask them to FAB me ac couple thousands VAX chips ? h  J If, during the last fab, they clocked the VAX at say 200mhz,  if I were toG provide the same designs today, but have it fabbed using the latest andhM greatest process, could the mhz be cranked up significantly because the chip,cD albeit the same phsyical size as before, would be manufacturerd with, significantly better precision than before ?  c         </pre>     </blockquote>i     <pre wrap="">--t
     </pre>   </blockquote>f
 </blockquote>- </body>r </html>   ( --------------090009080906040505020808--   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 07:44:17 -0600B; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?k3 Message-ID: <K2QmkMXdXCfS@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  o In article <GRrUb.13835$Bx6.2787@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com> writes:1N > But the PC really arrived when DEC "thought" that the competition for it wasI > the PDP11.  The Pro-300 was the ill-fated response, and did reflect thelL > opinion that it was so much better technology that people would just flock
 > to it.    F    The PC arrived when DEC thought the competition was IBM mainframes.C    Sun arrived when DEC thought the competition was IBM mainframes.98    Compaq and Sun thought the competition was everybody.  G    A the same time DEC thought DEC was a computer manufacturer, writingrF    software so they could make and sell hardware.  They didn't realizeC    that there was better hardware than VAXen, but people who bought E    VAXen really wanted VMS.  They'd have bought VMS on PDP-10 if theyoF    could get it.  They'd have bought it on SEL 32 if they could get itG    (our cheap 32/55 ran circles aronud our 11/780).  People didn't say aI    "buy a VMS", they said "buy a VAX".  DEC thought folks were buying VAXsJ    but they were really buying VMS.  End users still refer to an Alpha as 	    a VAX.v      DEC got blindsided.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 05:58:11 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o% Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ?r9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEIKCMAA.tom@kednos.com>   B I still maintain that if you can make a Pentium spin at 4 GHz thenB you could do at least the same for VAX (which unlike Pentium has aE symmetric, orthogonal instruction set)  To match the performance withcB an Alpha you would probably need a clock of 8GHz or more.  I think this horse must now be dead.  D I have seen numbers in the past of ~400K VMS systems worldwide.  How many of those are VAXen today?   -----Original Message-----8 From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net]' Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 5:13 AMA To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?n    K I did say "using today's technology".   If you built a VAX today, using theeG very latest fabrication technology and any design improvements you likehJ (must still conform to the VAX Archicture standard), I think the very best# Alphas would blow the doors off it.s  D Also note that "integer performanace" is not quite the same thing asA performance.  Any real application uses far more than the integer 
 instructions.d  K Was the site with the large ACMS-Rdb application McGraw-Hill by any chance?t   Daryl Jones wrote:   Dear Richard B. Gilbert:  B In 1999, I experience at a client site the moving a large ACMS-RdbB application from a max out VAX 78xx system to a Alpha 8400 where IC only saw saw drop of cpu utilization go from 100% to 66%. I thoughteA this was strange since the Interger test comparison was 1800 to 1oE faster for the Alpha. Therefore, I find your statement that the Alpha ? blows off the doors of the VAX processor not true at that time.t   Regards, Daryl Jonesm  > "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote in message, news:<svidnWLeioqV773dRVn-ug@comcast.com>...  B Well, it was many years ago, but I seem to recall that "faster andD cheaper" competing systems were selling like hotcakes and VAXen wereF not.  No matter how great the O/S was, the hardware was overpriced and
 underpowered!i  B There may have been technical considerations as well but there wasH definitely a financial reason; they needed faster hardware to run VMS onE in order to sell VMS and the VAX architecture simply could not do it.fH Even using today's technology, the best Alpha chips would blow the doors* off the best VAX chips that could be made.H I has been three or four years since I last booted a VAX;  I still own aG VAXstation 4000/VLC and a MicroVAX 3100 but I may never boot either onec againt   JF Mezei wrote:w    C I personally think a 64-bit extended VAX architecture incorporating12 current processor technologies would be dreamy :-)      L At the time the decision was made to ditch VAX and develop Alpha, were thereK compelling technical reasons to do so, or was there a strong marketing urgeh to' adopt the then buzzword-du-jour: RISC ?l  J The one argument I had heard was the need to have fixed length instruction setwG in order to make pipelining etc work better. Does the 8086 have a fixedl length instruction set ?.  G When one looks at what Intel was able to do with the 8086, it makes one  wonder* if the same could have been done with VAX.  $ What was the fastest VAX chip made ?    I Also, if, for my birthday, Sue were to give me the rights and all designsp forOI VAX architecture, could I go to TI, IBM or Intel and ask them to FAB me ae couple thousands VAX chips ?  J If, during the last fab, they clocked the VAX at say 200mhz,  if I were toG provide the same designs today, but have it fabbed using the latest andiG greatest process, could the mhz be cranked up significantly because the  chip,nD albeit the same phsyical size as before, would be manufacturerd with, significantly better precision than before ?       --   --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------   Date: 6 Feb 2004 07:46:07 -0600e; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e% Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ?e3 Message-ID: <o6im40Ahz17H@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <JFEPKAPBPMDFDBOIANGDAEANEMAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes:  D > It wasn't the price of the Vax - it was the price of the software.` > The myth of a free hardware generic OS (UNIX) took the masses by storm (can you spell Linux)?   D    UNIX was not cheap to the end user.  It was cheap to the computerF    manufacturer who no longer had to write a new OS every time he came     out with a new computer line.  =    Cheap UNIX came later, long after VAXen lost market share.i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:57:13 -05005 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com>.% Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ?nQ Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D502D06F88@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>t  L plus if the cpu was at 100% who's to say it wasnt really at 1000%, and then=L  dropped to 66%?  What was the cpu queue?  How long did it take to do your = standard jobs before and after?o   This is misleading.u   -----Original Message-----1 From: nospam [mailto:x@wedontwantyourspam.com]=20n' Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:34 AMh To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComO% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?p    L in article 8a646952.0402052103.6555591e@posting.google.com, Daryl Jones at => jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net wrote on 06/02/2004 16:03:   > Dear Richard B. Gilbert: >=20G > In 1999, I experience at a client site the moving a large ACMS-Rdb=20bG > application from a max out VAX 78xx system to a Alpha 8400 where I=20 E > only saw saw drop of cpu utilization go from 100% to 66%. I thoughtsL Oh god how sad. CPU utilization cant be used like that. CPU's are always 10=L 0% till they halt or power down. %utilization relates to the OS being in th=# e idle loop.  Your deluded sorry ;)r   =20 F > this was strange since the Interger test comparison was 1800 to 1=20J > faster for the Alpha. Therefore, I find your statement that the Alpha=20A > blows off the doors of the VAX processor not true at that time.n      ) ----------------------------------------- L The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and c=L onfidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s) n=L amed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent =L responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any revi=L ew, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is str=L ictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the=L  sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original =L message. Please note that we do not accept account orders and/or instructio=L ns by e-mail, and therefore will not be responsible for carrying out such o= rders and/or instructions.L If you, as an intended recipient of this commercial e-mail or advertisement=L , would not like to receive further e-mail correspondence from the sender, =4 please "reply" to the sender indicating your wishes.< In the U.S.: 1345 Avenue of the Americas, New York, NY 10105   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:22:34 +0000 (UTC)( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?a/ Message-ID: <c00bfq$g3l$1@news.tu-darmstadt.de>   V In article <40217DAA.F7493BDC@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: > P > No. The real reason was that Digital did not lower the prices of VAXes quicklyP > enough to maintauin price-performance leadership against the newcomers such as > Apollo and Sun.o   I'm not exactly a VMSer, gA but just for the record I might give my 2 cents as an ex-user ...n   D when my former work group turned from VMS to UNIX ( around 1990/91 )> the calculation for a single workplace was roughly as follows # (edu discounts already subtracted):g  ; VAX 3176, 8MB, cheapest colour, monitor       : DEM 32700,-r<     OEM disk 900MB, extra 8MB                 :      8000,- ;                                                     -------l;                                                     40700,-r  3 IBM RS/6000(20MHz) 32MB, excellent colour+monitor, .<              disk 300MB                       : DEM 32000,-    (1 DEM == 0.5 Euro == $0.5 )  6 So the VAX was not only significantly more expensive, 5 it had less memory and was more complicated to order: I System disk and memory from another, cheaper supplier, because DEC priceso  for these items were outrageous.  I The IBM box came complete and was more than 2 times faster for our apps, p and that was it.$ We never bought VMS equipment again.  A In the same time frame you could have the Mips-based DecStations, B with a similar pricetag as the IBMs, but only if you bought memory? and disks somewhere else, otherwise they were really expensive. E The first batch had lousy graphics and monitor, and their performance   didn't match that of the IBM's. 4 The OS (ultrix) and associated software (compilers) 8 were junk compared to even the earliest versions of AIX.? We bought them more or less to satisfy the Dec traditionalists.   C The other contenders were HP/Apollo with their 68040 based machines2> and price/performance levels roughly equivalent to the Mipsen;E the cheapest Sun Sparc was twice as expensive at half the performances of the IBMs.  D When alpha-based UNIX boxes came around, it was too little too late,  DECs downfall had already begun.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 15:27:01 GMTc9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>A% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ? / Message-ID: <4023B236.77CBDFB4@eps.zko.dec.com>o   Daryl Jones wrote:  D > In 1999, I experience at a client site the moving a large ACMS-RdbD > application from a max out VAX 78xx system to a Alpha 8400 where IE > only saw saw drop of cpu utilization go from 100% to 66%. I thoughtdC > this was strange since the Interger test comparison was 1800 to 1iG > faster for the Alpha. Therefore, I find your statement that the AlphaeA > blows off the doors of the VAX processor not true at that time.a  c That's a cute story, but from a technology perspective it means nothing without further background.m  K Notably, that 100% really may have been 1000% had the resources been there. I How much time did the same unit of work take on the Vax versus the Alpha?i  T Furthermore, the 7800 and 8400 had largely the same(similar)  backplane / memory no?C So if the VAX managed to come close  to memory bandwith saturation,ni and the alpha more so, then you'd see lost of CPU burned waiting for instructions and/or data to come in. E Remember, a cpu looks 100% busy while stalling for memory to come in!t  ; The may well explain the integer benchmar vs real-life gap.iF That integer benchmark may have been running in the (small) cpu cache!  9 What was the CPU speed on that 8400 anyway? 275? 350? :-(M  Z More importantly... those first Alpha's were not designed to tremendously overpower VAXen.` The main reason to their creation is that Digital saw the end of a technology curve in sight and[ the Alpha was created to get onto a new curve, much like the Itanium story a decade  later. d (hmm, you'd think they'd learn.. pdp - vax - alpha - ipf ... all doomed before their time? :-(..   )  G I'd like to think Alpha deliverd on that promiss: ES45 Ev69 1250 Mhz...uS But then then end of its line came in sight, not technologically, but economically. \ So here we are coming to a grinding hold with Marvel / Ev7 @ 1.15 and a little more to come. Ouch.    Cheers,2 Hein.BT [btw... I have not followed this discussion much, sorry if I duplicate prior inputs]   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:52:03 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>f% Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ?b9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEILCMAA.tom@kednos.com>u  C Interesting story.  Why did you choose AIX over other Unix vendors?s; IIRC you were largely a PL/I shop based on 370's and VAXen.n     -----Original Message-----C   From: Michael Kraemer [mailto:kraemer@clri6e]On Behalf Of Michaelo	   Kraemer>)   Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 7:23 AMm   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com>'   Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?t      5   In article <40217DAA.F7493BDC@istop.com>, JF Mezei  %   <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:    > B   > No. The real reason was that Digital did not lower the prices    of VAXes quicklyA   > enough to maintauin price-performance leadership against the     newcomers such asi   > Apollo and Sun.W      I'm not exactly a VMSer, eC   but just for the record I might give my 2 cents as an ex-user ...O     F   when my former work group turned from VMS to UNIX ( around 1990/91 )@   the calculation for a single workplace was roughly as follows %   (edu discounts already subtracted):>   =   VAX 3176, 8MB, cheapest colour, monitor       : DEM 32700,-a>       OEM disk 900MB, extra 8MB                 :      8000,- =                                                       ------->=                                                       40700,-e   5   IBM RS/6000(20MHz) 32MB, excellent colour+monitor,  >                disk 300MB                       : DEM 32000,-       (1 DEM == 0.5 Euro == $0.5 )   8   So the VAX was not only significantly more expensive, 7   it had less memory and was more complicated to order:eK   System disk and memory from another, cheaper supplier, because DEC prices>"   for these items were outrageous.   K   The IBM box came complete and was more than 2 times faster for our apps, g   and that was it.&   We never bought VMS equipment again.   C   In the same time frame you could have the Mips-based DecStations,oD   with a similar pricetag as the IBMs, but only if you bought memoryA   and disks somewhere else, otherwise they were really expensive. G   The first batch had lousy graphics and monitor, and their performance "   didn't match that of the IBM's. 6   The OS (ultrix) and associated software (compilers) :   were junk compared to even the earliest versions of AIX.A   We bought them more or less to satisfy the Dec traditionalists.    E   The other contenders were HP/Apollo with their 68040 based machines @   and price/performance levels roughly equivalent to the Mipsen;G   the cheapest Sun Sparc was twice as expensive at half the performance?   of the IBMs.   F   When alpha-based UNIX boxes came around, it was too little too late,"   DECs downfall had already begun.      ---.(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004    --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:02:34 +0000-O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>i% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?o0 Message-ID: <c00dqr$c9m$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Michael Kraemer wrote:X > In article <40217DAA.F7493BDC@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: >  >rE > The other contenders were HP/Apollo with their 68040 based machines @ > and price/performance levels roughly equivalent to the Mipsen;G > the cheapest Sun Sparc was twice as expensive at half the performanceu > of the IBMs. >   : The IBM you are refering to was the RS/6000 320 or 520 and? both were slower than the SS2 which was around at the same timet as the RS/6000   	SPECint
 320  	15.8 SS2	20.7   RegardsR Andrew Harrison,F > When alpha-based UNIX boxes came around, it was too little too late," > DECs downfall had already begun.   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:02:00 +0000 (UTC)( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)% Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?n/ Message-ID: <c00ha8$hsk$1@news.tu-darmstadt.de>i   In article <c00dqr$c9m$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > < > The IBM you are refering to was the RS/6000 320 or 520 andA > both were slower than the SS2 which was around at the same timeg > as the RS/6000 > 
 > 	SPECint > 320  	15.8
 > SS2	20.7 >   D All I can refer to was the survey performed by our central IT gurus 
 in mid 1990. oE They listed RS/6000 models 320, 530 and 540 and Sun 4/65, /370, /470,e
 respectively.y; Don't know if the model you refer to was on the market yet.a7 The metric our people used was mainly MIPS and MFlops, 1 probably from the spec sheets. a: According to that the cheapest IBM had 27 MIPS, 7 MFlops; * the cheapest Sun had 16 MIPS, 1.7 MFlops. > Sun's prices at that time were prohibitive, maybe they refusedF to offer decent edu counts, don't know, anyway it's long gone history.  M I come up with all that only because I came across those old sheets of papers S during X-mas cleanup and felt I could contribute a bit to historical reviewing ....w    h   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:33:39 +0000 (UTC)( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)% Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ? / Message-ID: <c00fl3$hbe$1@news.tu-darmstadt.de>   _ In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEILCMAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:tE > Interesting story.  Why did you choose AIX over other Unix vendors?e= > IIRC you were largely a PL/I shop based on 370's and VAXen.o >.  C That was true at that time. However, since you seem to know us, youp> might also know that a research organisation isn't monolithic.4 That workgroup was the first adopter of UNIX systemsH ("open" systems and cheap RISC boxes were the buzzwords of those days). L PL/I was no longer an option, because their main software was FORTRAN-based P and PL/I compilers where rather uncommon (on UNIX, at least until the mid 90's).E AIX was chosen partly because of the financial logic I outlined in myxF previous post, and of course because our IT people were either IBM- or@ DEC-bound (you can probably imagine the "harmony" between them).@ Since the DEC offer was less attractive than IBMs at that time, B I preferred IBM. As said, we did buy a couple of DecStations too, ' but I was never really happy with them.u  r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:08:28 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o% Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ?n9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEIPCMAA.tom@kednos.com>o     -----Original Message-----5   From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu]e+   Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 7:46 AMD   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt'   Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?     ;   In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEHGCMAA.tom@kednos.com>,y(   	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:   >rH   > I had seveal 50 series as well.  Guess who provided their compilers?   >t  >   Hmmmm......  University of Sheffield.(F77)  Garth Conboy.(C)  C   All the rest came directly from Pr1me and all my support contactsiF   were directly with them so I assumed they did most of it themselves.+   Boy do I miss working with SPL and PL1/g.   H You can still use PL/I on VMS or Tru64.  Internally Prime used PLP whichF a essentially PL/I with the I/O stripped out and somewaht extended for better access to the kernel.     bill     --L   Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF   bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.   University of Scranton   |@   Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>     --- (   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ---F& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:28:08 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: RE: Why was VAX abandonned ?y9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEIPCMAA.tom@kednos.com>i     -----Original Message-----D   From: Robert A. Matern [mailto:ramatern@SEND.MEuninetsNO.SPAM.net]+   Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:06 AMw   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come'   Subject: Re: Why was VAX abandonned ?d    I   And Prime's Multics heritage didn't hurt, either...   I miss Multics so0?   much...   it makes most newer OSes look like garbage...   thet   last U.S. NavyL   Multics was shutdown in '96, the last Multics in the world bit the dust in.   early 2000...    RIP, but live on forever...  A   Bob (Multician from CSC & NWGS - see http://www.multicians.org)r  4 You don't see well documented code like this anymore' http://www.multicians.org/calendar.html-  ;   "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 6   news:bvtof3$10t5c5$2@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de...=   > In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEHGCMAA.tom@kednos.com>,m)   > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:n   > >pJ   > > I had seveal 50 series as well.  Guess who provided their compilers?   > >    > @   > Hmmmm......  University of Sheffield.(F77)  Garth Conboy.(C)   >aE   > All the rest came directly from Pr1me and all my support contactsnH   > were directly with them so I assumed they did most of it themselves.-   > Boy do I miss working with SPL and PL1/g.r   >s   > bill   >    > --@   > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.   Three wolvesH   > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.   > University of Scranton   |B   > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       --- (   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:19:53 +0000 (UTC)6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)# Subject: [MOZILLA] What's current ?o1 Message-ID: <newscache$q3unsh$vx42$1@news.sil.at>   L I did stop by at the MOZILLA for VMS download page to look for something newO and I found that the latest/newest versions is MOZILLA B1.5 (from 29-Aug-2003).nM So, there hasn't been any VMS MOZILLA evolution for half a year now. How sad.v  L But I'm just wondering where did I then download MOZILLA D1.5 from, which isL the version I have installed on my systems ? Can you help my rotten mind ;-)   TIAd   -- a Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERs% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 06:59:36 -0500k' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>t' Subject: Re: [MOZILLA] What's current ?R1 Message-ID: <TIidnb1d04wxHL7dRVn-jg@adelphia.com>r    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:  M >But I'm just wondering where did I then download MOZILLA D1.5 from, which iscM >the version I have installed on my systems ? Can you help my rotten mind ;-)  > E That would have been from Mozilla web site. D1.5 was the 1.5 RC2 kit.t  F http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/mozilla1.5rc2/  H Mozilla don't advertise beta versions once the final release is out, so   you can't drill down to find it.   Colin.   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:51:21 +0000 (UTC)6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)' Subject: Re: [MOZILLA] What's current ?h/ Message-ID: <newscache$ao6osh$uj$1@news.sil.at>f  [ In article <TIidnb1d04wxHL7dRVn-jg@adelphia.com>, Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com> writes: ! >Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:tN >>But I'm just wondering where did I then download MOZILLA D1.5 from, which isN >>the version I have installed on my systems ? Can you help my rotten mind ;-) >>F >That would have been from Mozilla web site. D1.5 was the 1.5 RC2 kit. > G >http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/mozilla1.5rc2/l >aI >Mozilla don't advertise beta versions once the final release is out, so a! >you can't drill down to find it.s    Now you said it, I can remember.O I wondered why this version came only from mozilla.org and not from hp.com too.    Thanks a lot Colin  $ The rest of the question remain sad.   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERr% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:19:49 +0100h From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>' Subject: Re: [MOZILLA] What's current ?r2 Message-ID: <c00mn0$npq$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:] > In article <TIidnb1d04wxHL7dRVn-jg@adelphia.com>, Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com> writes:t > " >>Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: >>O >>>But I'm just wondering where did I then download MOZILLA D1.5 from, which istO >>>the version I have installed on my systems ? Can you help my rotten mind ;-)e >>>. >>G >>That would have been from Mozilla web site. D1.5 was the 1.5 RC2 kit.. >>H >>http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/mozilla1.5rc2/ >>J >>Mozilla don't advertise beta versions once the final release is out, so " >>you can't drill down to find it. >  > " > Now you said it, I can remember.Q > I wondered why this version came only from mozilla.org and not from hp.com too.t >  > Thanks a lot Colin > & > The rest of the question remain sad. > O I agree. Colin's work is sadly missed. Normally we would now have Mozilla 1.6, o but alas.......o   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.073 ************************h instruction setwQ >>>in order to make pipelining etc work better. Does the 8086 have a fixed length. >>>instruction set ? >>>,Q >>>When one looks at what Intel was able to do with the 8086, it makes one wonders- >>>if the same could have been done with VAX.  >>>a( >>>What was the fastest VAX chip made ?  >>>. >>> P >>>Also, if, for my birthday, Sue were to give me the rights and all designs forL >>>VAX architecture, could I go to TI, IBM or Intel and ask them t5I\M.2@^ZE?\&VCZUKB/BKX/C\3Z
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