/ INFO-VAX	Sat, 03 Jan 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 5       Contents:/ Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit / Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit / Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit / Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit / Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit / Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit  Re: Bugcheck - PCAPVCM?  Re: Christmas Special  Re: Christmas Special  Re: DCL user info  Re: DCL user info P Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support   in        P RE: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in         DP Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in         DP Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in         DK Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in DCL) ' Re: Haven't received 7.3-2 condist yet. 8 Re: Linux kernel security bug ... VMS kernel rock solid!& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp& Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp Re: SIMH V3.1 released Re: Tom Linden's use of /*/ Transferring files from VAX to W2K Professional 3 Re: Transferring files from VAX to W2K Professional 3 Re: Transferring files from VAX to W2K Professional   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 18:33:12 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG8 Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit0 Message-ID: <00A2B4BD.78B2313E@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <b096a4ee.0401020628.635eb15d@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:a >Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> wrote in message news:<00A2B434.DA28D38E.23@tachysoft.com>...  >> >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms < >> >Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit$ >> >From: VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 >> >Message-ID: <00A2B3CE.B84C24B4@SendSpamHere.ORG>! >> >Organization: TMESIS Software  >> >E >> >OS X!  Proof that a good, intuitive GUI can beat the pants off of E >> >anything RedmondWarez Inc.  Something similar and solid atop of a E >> >Linux distro could easily do a better job than Billy and his poor  >> >excuse of an OS. >>M >> I agree.  OS X is just as easy to use as billyware.  I dislike the eunuchs Q >> command line as much as anybody, but I rarely see it, just an occasional xterm : >> when I telnet connect back into one of the vms systems. >>  : >> I enjoy life more now that I live in a billy free zone. >[...] > : >How about keyboard shortcuts? How does OS-X fare on that? > G >Can you do as much without the mouse on OS-X as you can on Windows? If  >not, what's missing? Thanks.    Reboot... reboot... reboot.    --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.  --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:29:23 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com>8 Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit+ Message-ID: <bt4usj$5as$1@news01.intel.com>    Alan E. Feldman wrote:b > Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> wrote in message news:<00A2B434.DA28D38E.23@tachysoft.com>... >  >>>X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms; >>>Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit # >>>From: VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG 3 >>>Message-ID: <00A2B3CE.B84C24B4@SendSpamHere.ORG>   >>>Organization: TMESIS Software >>> D >>>OS X!  Proof that a good, intuitive GUI can beat the pants off ofD >>>anything RedmondWarez Inc.  Something similar and solid atop of aD >>>Linux distro could easily do a better job than Billy and his poor >>>excuse of an OS.  >>L >>I agree.  OS X is just as easy to use as billyware.  I dislike the eunuchsP >>command line as much as anybody, but I rarely see it, just an occasional xterm9 >>when I telnet connect back into one of the vms systems.  >>9 >>I enjoy life more now that I live in a billy free zone.  >  > [...]  > ; > How about keyboard shortcuts? How does OS-X fare on that?   = Of course you can.  I seem to recall that the early Macintosh A OSes had more, and more sensible, keyboard short cuts long before > Windows had them (not talking about DOS...of which I have very@ little experience anyway).  Further, OS X has the ability to get? into keystrokes-instead-of-mouse-clicks mode from the keyboard.   A As near as I can tell, Apple have done a good job of layering the B traditional Mac look-and-feel on top of X-windows, on top of unix.B Decwindows, and by extension X-windows, has had the ability to use: keyboard instead of mouse for as long as I can remember...  H > Can you do as much without the mouse on OS-X as you can on Windows? If > not, what's missing? Thanks.  > My guess is more.  I prefer VMS/DECwindows, but I am forced to> use Windows XP (my work environment/my employer).  In spite of> finding and using as many keyboard shortcuts as I can, I still> find my right hand lifting off the keyboard to find the mouse,? then having to settle back on the keyboard, far, far more often  than I'd like. :-(  ? Oh, and a little more personal opinion: X11/Motif (and probably > earlier) got it right with a 3-button mouse, select and paste,< quick select-and-paste, and tailorable focus policies (among= other things...sorry for the incorrect terminology).  I amaze ? my coworkers, especially the younger ones, by how effective and C efficient I can be in a DECterm, and even more so in EVE (of course = with my personal extensions).  The Windows UI gets in the way   of my work; Motif helps me work.   	-Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2004 14:51:30 -0800 . From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)8 Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0401021451.59ec93b0@posting.google.com>   X VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A2B4BD.78B2313E@SendSpamHere.ORG>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0401020628.635eb15d@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:c > >Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> wrote in message news:<00A2B434.DA28D38E.23@tachysoft.com>...  > >> >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms > > >> >Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit& > >> >From: VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG6 > >> >Message-ID: <00A2B3CE.B84C24B4@SendSpamHere.ORG># > >> >Organization: TMESIS Software  > >> >G > >> >OS X!  Proof that a good, intuitive GUI can beat the pants off of G > >> >anything RedmondWarez Inc.  Something similar and solid atop of a G > >> >Linux distro could easily do a better job than Billy and his poor  > >> >excuse of an OS. > >>O > >> I agree.  OS X is just as easy to use as billyware.  I dislike the eunuchs S > >> command line as much as anybody, but I rarely see it, just an occasional xterm < > >> when I telnet connect back into one of the vms systems. > >>  < > >> I enjoy life more now that I live in a billy free zone. > >[...] > > < > >How about keyboard shortcuts? How does OS-X fare on that? > > I > >Can you do as much without the mouse on OS-X as you can on Windows? If  > >not, what's missing? Thanks.  >  > Reboot... reboot... reboot.   D First: Now I still hate much about Windows, but the truth is that myD PC at work running W2K has been up since 2003-10-31. And it wasn't aC crash that brought it down then. And that is actually very typical.   D Second: I'll take that as OS-X not having keyboard shortcuts or very# few. (Well, I know they have some.)   C I have a friend who can't use a mouse the way most people do due to F RSI. What are people like that supposed to do on a Mac if there aren'tB a reasonable number of keyboard shortcuts? Huh? Why don't you step" into *his* shoes and walk a mile?!   Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:17:17 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG8 Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit0 Message-ID: <00A2B4ED.8AA3976C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <b096a4ee.0401021451.59ec93b0@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:Y >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A2B4BD.78B2313E@SendSpamHere.ORG>... q >> In article <b096a4ee.0401020628.635eb15d@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: d >> >Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> wrote in message news:<00A2B434.DA28D38E.23@tachysoft.com>...  >> >> >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms? >> >> >Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit ' >> >> >From: VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG 7 >> >> >Message-ID: <00A2B3CE.B84C24B4@SendSpamHere.ORG> $ >> >> >Organization: TMESIS Software >> >> > H >> >> >OS X!  Proof that a good, intuitive GUI can beat the pants off ofH >> >> >anything RedmondWarez Inc.  Something similar and solid atop of aH >> >> >Linux distro could easily do a better job than Billy and his poor >> >> >excuse of an OS.  >> >> P >> >> I agree.  OS X is just as easy to use as billyware.  I dislike the eunuchsT >> >> command line as much as anybody, but I rarely see it, just an occasional xterm= >> >> when I telnet connect back into one of the vms systems.  >> >> = >> >> I enjoy life more now that I live in a billy free zone. 	 >> >[...]  >> >= >> >How about keyboard shortcuts? How does OS-X fare on that?  >> >J >> >Can you do as much without the mouse on OS-X as you can on Windows? If  >> >not, what's missing? Thanks. >>   >> Reboot... reboot... reboot. > E >First: Now I still hate much about Windows, but the truth is that my E >PC at work running W2K has been up since 2003-10-31. And it wasn't a D >crash that brought it down then. And that is actually very typical.  G I've been playing with my PB G4.  Wireless and 10/100/1000bT wired net- H working and I've even configured PPP modem dialup.  I can use all of theH myriad networking interfaces on the PB G4 without ever being prompted toE reboot.  I recently changed an internal network from 192.168.100.0 to H 192.168.2.0.  Three times I was prompted to and forced to reboot the ol'G PeeCee -- four if you consider that I also needed to change the address  in the PeeCee for the LNCO2.  E >Second: I'll take that as OS-X not having keyboard shortcuts or very $ >few. (Well, I know they have some.)  F It does.  I don't know the PeeCee shortcuts save for CTRL-ALT-DEL so IF can't comment, compare or contrast the quantities of the shortcuts.  ID do know that the Apple's keyboard shortcuts can be easily customisedE in the System Preference app as well as many of the software packages  that I've installed to date.   --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.  --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:24:23 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG8 Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit0 Message-ID: <00A2B4EE.88E9CCED@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Z In article <bt4usj$5as$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com> writes: >Alan E. Feldman wrote: c >> Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> wrote in message news:<00A2B434.DA28D38E.23@tachysoft.com>...  >>   >>>>X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms < >>>>Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit$ >>>>From: VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG4 >>>>Message-ID: <00A2B3CE.B84C24B4@SendSpamHere.ORG>! >>>>Organization: TMESIS Software  >>>>E >>>>OS X!  Proof that a good, intuitive GUI can beat the pants off of E >>>>anything RedmondWarez Inc.  Something similar and solid atop of a E >>>>Linux distro could easily do a better job than Billy and his poor  >>>>excuse of an OS. >>> M >>>I agree.  OS X is just as easy to use as billyware.  I dislike the eunuchs Q >>>command line as much as anybody, but I rarely see it, just an occasional xterm : >>>when I telnet connect back into one of the vms systems. >>> : >>>I enjoy life more now that I live in a billy free zone. >>   >> [...] >>  < >> How about keyboard shortcuts? How does OS-X fare on that? > > >Of course you can.  I seem to recall that the early MacintoshB >OSes had more, and more sensible, keyboard short cuts long before? >Windows had them (not talking about DOS...of which I have very A >little experience anyway).  Further, OS X has the ability to get @ >into keystrokes-instead-of-mouse-clicks mode from the keyboard. > B >As near as I can tell, Apple have done a good job of layering theC >traditional Mac look-and-feel on top of X-windows, on top of unix. C >Decwindows, and by extension X-windows, has had the ability to use ; >keyboard instead of mouse for as long as I can remember...   @ Unrooted X11 is available.  You can start X11 apps with a motif ? window manager and share the worksapce with the Aqua (Apple) dt  manager and apps.    --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.  --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:04:12 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>8 Subject: Re: A Christmas gift to all haters of Micro$hit) Message-ID: <3FF63110.F048270F@istop.com>    Ken Fairfield wrote:@ > My guess is more.  I prefer VMS/DECwindows, but I am forced to@ > use Windows XP (my work environment/my employer).  In spite of@ > finding and using as many keyboard shortcuts as I can, I still@ > find my right hand lifting off the keyboard to find the mouse,    H I have to disagree. On the MAC, cut/copy/paste are consistant across allM applications. On DECwidnows, there isn't much consistency, and I never really L use the shortcut keys. Besides, in most cases, the shortcut opens a menu and; you then have to type another key to get the item you want.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 06:29:46 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)  Subject: Re: Bugcheck - PCAPVCM?; Message-ID: <3ff6534a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   5 Norman Lastovica (norman.lastovica@oracle.com) wrote:  > Martin Vorlaender wrote:L > > I just had my otherwise reliable AlphaStation 200 (VMS 7.2-2 with UPDATEI > > 1.0, ACRTL 3.0, DRIVER 3.0, and a few others; DECnet Phase IV; TCP/IP L > > Services 5.1 ECO5) bugcheck with "PGFIPLHI, Pagefault with IPL too high"F > > in SYS$LAN_CSMACD+08A38. As the last thing I did was test the PCAPG > > (downloaded from simh.trailingedge.com) I have a strong feeling the I > > guilty part is the PCAPVCM execlet. Does it really need VMS 7.3-1 (as + > > SIMH's 0readme_ethernet.txt suggests)?   > D > 	One would have to suspect that the people that write the softwareI > would be relatively familier with its limitations.  it might make sense ! > to follow the instructions, eh?   C It's just that I found it working before reading that it shouldn't.   B >  why not upgrade to vms v7.3-2 and see if it works better there?  H Because this is the system I build distributions on, and I wouldn't want> to force all people running ht://Dig under VMS 7.2 to upgrade.  / At work, we still have VMS 6.2 for that reason.    > > SIMH and pcaptest.exe (when I > > started with at least CMKRNL,PHYS_IO) did find WE0:, and pcaptest did ( > > gather packets, so it seems to work.   <quote> J   1. Ethernet support will only work on Alpha VMS 7.3-1 or later, which is:      when required VCI promiscuous mode support was added. </quote>  F But the VCI promiscious mode definitely works under 7.2-2 (plus ECOs).   cu,    Martin --  G                            | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer 4  UNIX is user friendly.    | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deG  It's just selective about |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ ;  who its friends are.      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:56:33 -0500< From: "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Christmas Special9 Message-ID: <bt4lu2$39upv$1@ID-141708.news.uni-berlin.de>   
 Island wrote:  > DS10L 617Mhz > 256MB Compaq Memory : > 30GB 7200 Compaq  Hard Disk (VMS 7.1-2> and Tru64 4.0F>) > Dual 10/100 Ethernet > NO CD or Floppy  > $ > Special Pricing until Jan 5th 2004 >  > Only $899 + Shipping > % > Limited Qty available at this price 4 > We can only accept Visa or Mastercard on this deal= > Shipping is NOT included - averages $40 USA /$70 Canada and 	 $90 to EU " > Approximate shipping prices only >  > Warranty is one year.  >  > Email your order only.= > Email must reach us by the 5th of January to take advantage  of this  > very low pricing8 > Credit Card details will need to be available by phone> > YOU MUST include a valid daytime phone number for this offer< > You MUST also include a valid email address (we don't spam email  > accounts)  > + > Thanks all - Merry Xmas/Happy Chanuka etc    Dave,   8 I sent you two messages about this, one to your islandco7 address and a few days later to your HPAQ address, both > messages came from a sympatico.ca account. So I'm assuming you7 are using some spam blocker that thinks sympatico.ca is 4 something to be blocked. Anyway, the questions were;  7 1. What CD can you add on this for me and at what cost? 9 2. What graphic card can you add for me and at what cost?    --   Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.  Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX  www.weaverconsulting.ca    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:16:31 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> Subject: Re: Christmas Special) Message-ID: <3FF633F1.5F3D98D5@istop.com>    Peter Weaver wrote: 9 > address and a few days later to your HPAQ address, both @ > messages came from a sympatico.ca account. So I'm assuming you9 > are using some spam blocker that thinks sympatico.ca is  > something to be blocked.  N It is, or at least it was. Until  mid2003, sympatico refused to do anything toF prevent spammers and relay servers. It was a major source of spam in aC worldwide basis and had begun to appear on RBLs. When this made the K newspapers, sympatico finally start to act and blocked outbound and inbound J port 25, forcing all sympatico customers to use Sympatico's SMTP servers.   L They probably haven't finished the paperwork to get themselves off all RBLs.  M Sympatico *should* be giving you the reason why your message was blocked, and M the islandco server *SHOUDL* provide the reason (for instance, which RBL told  islandco to refuse that email).   N But not all sending SMTP servers (for instance, the TCPIP Services one) reportK back to the sender the exact error message sent by the receiving SMTP.  The M TCPIP Services server only reports that the username was invalid. You have to N look at the SMTP server log file to see the exact error message, provided that" you enabled SMTP dialogue logging.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:37:14 -0500 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> Subject: Re: DCL user info8 Message-ID: <niabvvsqo188d1ak099fcktvftu28g8uv7@4ax.com>  J On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:03:19 -0800, Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com> wrote:  2 >> F$GETUAI() has been suggested to fill this gap. > = >     Would that not generate a security hole?  Correct me if = >I'm wrong, but calling $GETUAI certainly checks for adequate < >privileges before allowing access to SYSUAF and RIGHTSLIST.9 >At the moment, I can't think of an existing lexical that 5 >requires elevated privileges to return the requested 9 >information (though a protected logical name table might  >thwart F$TrnLnm...).   M As David already replied, if such a lexical function were available it should K work just as others do -- allow you DCL access to information based on your O current VMS privileges. For GETUAI, this would allow access to your information  but no others.  K I have a copy of an existing freeware program called GETUAI which does just N this. I don't remember where I got my copy, possibly one of the VAX SIG tapes.0 The top of GETUAI.C in the version I have reads:  < /*Last Modified: 24-JUL-1991 10:44:03 by EWILTS : GETUAI.C*/? /*Last Modified: 13-MAY-1992 11:53    by Andy Harper : GETUAI.C  #module  GETUAI  "V2.2"    /* GETUAI.C     Facility:  7     Fermilab Accelerator Control System - VAX/VMS ACNET 5     Get User Authorization Information for use in DCL   
  Abstract:E     This program provides an interim solution until (if?) an F$GETUAI J     lexical function is added to DCL.  Since this program uses the $GETUAIN     system service; it should continue to function across VMS upgrades (unlikeJ     GETUAF which reads the UAF records directly).  One use of GETUAI is inK     the system startup to define logical names for packages which reside on M     the user disks under various "manager" accounts (FPS164, MASS11MGR, etc).   
  Environment:      Foreign DCL command.  =  Author: Frank J. Nagy          Fermilab Accelerator Controls      and it can be used as follows:  ! $ getuai dsmit115 /owner=my_owner  $ sho sym my_owner   MY_OWNER = "David M. Smith"   F When used without privileges, the user can only access his/her record.I ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only) I -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:42:13 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com> Subject: Re: DCL user info+ Message-ID: <bt4vkl$5lc$1@news01.intel.com>    David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Ken Fairfield wrote: >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: [...] 2 >>>F$GETUAI() has been suggested to fill this gap. >>> >>     Would that not generate a security hole?  Correct me if> >>I'm wrong, but calling $GETUAI certainly checks for adequate= >>privileges before allowing access to SYSUAF and RIGHTSLIST. : >>At the moment, I can't think of an existing lexical that6 >>requires elevated privileges to return the requested
 >>information  >  > J > F$GETJPI() requires GROUP or WORLD privilege to get info about processes$ > outside your own UIC, does it not?  4 	Point taken.  Other lexicals are similarly gated by: privileges, e.g., F$GetQui requires elevated privileges to9 return all the information about entrie you don't own, or - queues you wouldn't otherwise have access to.    [...]   ? >>     While I like the idea of a DCL interface to $GETUAI, I'd < >>not like to break the pattern that information returned by& >>lexicals is unprivileged.  Comments? >  > F > It really should work identically to $GETUAI. If you have sufficientI > privilege, you can get info about other users; otherwise, it is limited  > to your current UIC.  ? As David M Smith pointed out in another post, there are various ? freeware tools around that interface to $GETUAI and (typically) ; return the requested information in DCL symbols.  We (also) : use one at work.  Having that functionallity available and= fully supported in a lexical would be very useful to us and a  Good Thing(tm). :-)    	-Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 18:50:59 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com>Y Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support   in         + Message-ID: <bt5amj$aev$1@news01.intel.com>    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:   
 [big snip]  ( > Variables might be explicitly declared
 > $ Integer X  > $ Character Y 
 > $ Decimal Z . > or implicitly declared by the value assigned > $ X=1  ! Integer > $ Y="1"  ! Character > $ Z=1.0   ! Decimal    $ x = 1 	 $ y = "2"  $ write sys$output f$type(x) INTEGER  $ write sys$output f$type(y) INTEGER  $   6 I don't think implicit typing, as you've suggested, is7 compatible with current behaviour...and I wouldn't want 
 it changed...    	-Ken  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:38:37 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> Y Subject: RE: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in         D 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEHHCJAA.tom@kednos.com>    < -----Original Message-----7 < From: Alan E. Feldman [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] ) < Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:18 AM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com E < Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL was(RE: Floating point arithmetic  < support in DCL)  <  < 1 < "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message  7 < news:<NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEGDCJAA.tom@kednos.com>... K < > Seems like everybody wants to have a hand at reinventing the log.  This H < > problem was solved 40 years ago.  Firstly, I have never seen commandK < > interpreter that uses float, decimal yes, but float no.  Secondly, they  < D < Then what to you call the Stratus example I posted in the original	 < thread?  <  < Here it is again:  <  < ready  21:22:22  < display_line (calc 2.5 ** 9) < 3814.697265625 < ready  21:22:40 # < display_line (calc 2.5 ** 9 * 10)  < 38146.97265625 < ready  21:22:51 / < display_line (calc 2.5 ** 9 * 10000000000000)  < 3.814697265625E+16 < ready  21:23:00  < display_line (calc 2.5 ** 99)  < 2.48920611114446E+39 < ready  21:23:32  < ? < Is this not float? Or do you not consider this a command line @ < interpreter because it is calling the "command function" calc?@ < ("Command function" is Stratus VOS's equivalent of our lexicalG < functions.) You can use math expressions without the calc function in A < certain statements VOS command macros. But it is still the calc ) < function that is called to do the work.   K The VOS command interpreter recognizes two data types, Character string and J Float Decimal with a maximum precision of 15 digits.  All calculations and@ conversions are performed by PL/I operators.  I stand corrected. <  < [...]  <  < Disclaimer: JMHO < Alan E. Feldman  <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).C < Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 12/18/2003  <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 12/18/2003    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:11:48 -0500 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> Y Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in         D 0 Message-ID: <ou6dnY8LxNNLi2uiRVn-hw@comcast.com>  @ Sigh!  Ugly ad hoc rules?   It seems to me that these rules, or ? something very like them already exist in both Fortran and C.   I Generations of programmers survived them.  I don't recall enough PL/1 to  H be able to make any claims regarding its behavior in this respect.  Are = these rules any uglier than a four operand division function?   ? The little credit card size promotional giveaway four function  G calculators do everything that I'd want to see in DCL.  Other than not  I breaking existing integer calculations I don't see a problem.  Requiring  H an explicit decimal point in decimal constants seems natural and not an C unreasonable burden and seems to solve the problem of not breaking  G integer calculations.  If numeric constants don't have a decimal point   they are integers.  & Variables might be explicitly declared $ Integer X 
 $ Character Y  $ Decimal Z , or implicitly declared by the value assigned $ X=1  ! Integer $ Y="1"  ! Character $ Z=1.0   ! Decimal      Tom Linden wrote:    >< -----Original Message----- ; >< From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] + >< Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:42 PM  >< To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComF >< Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL was(RE: Floating point arithmetic" >< support in DCL) in DCL) in DCL) >< ><H >< all right, decimal arithmetic instead of floating.  With the possibleJ >< exception of a COBOL course I took thirty years ago, I don't think I'veI >< ever used decimal arithmetic!!  Neither Fortran nor C support the data  >< type or the operations. > M >That is true, but the world of commerce uses exclusively decimal arithmetic, 8 >which is why they use cobol and PL/I to such an extent. ><J >< Pardon me but I don't see the necessity for two operators either.   OneH >< operator, overloaded, seems to me to be sufficient.  Integer operandsH >< imply an integer calculation.   If at least one operand is decimal itG >< seems to me to require a decimal operation and a decimal result.  Is ) >< there some ambiguity that I don't see?  > M >Overloading is not necessarily a good thing, and in this case, in an attempt J >to not break exisiting code you would have to apply some pretty (ugly) ad >hocK >rules, and I see no compelling reason to do so.  Moreover, it is important M >to make the contemplated extensions consistent with data types of other 3GLs L >to facilitate import/export of values, which is why I suggested that SDL is$ >the appropriate backdrop to employ. >  ><H >< As for the number of significant figures in the result, why would youJ >< want to specify that?  5./4. = 1.25!  If , for some reason, you wish toJ >< display only two significant figures that seems to me to be a differentF >< problem.  If you are going to use the result in another calculationF >< would you really want the result to be 1.2?  4.0*1.2=4.8  not five!I >< Sorry I don't recall the correct technical term for the rule that that H >< breaks.  (Yes, I know that floating point can break that rule too but> >< 4.999998 is usually close enough to 5 for government work.) ><I >< And the purpose of the third operand in your divide() function escapes  >< me completely.  3 what? > L >the third arg is the precision, the total number of decimals and the fourth >is I >the scale, the number of decimals to the right of the decimal point. The ! >following URL describes the args  > L >ftp://freja.kednos.com/pub/html/vms/reference/6291pro_037.html#index_x_1633 ><= >< You (and John) may be right but you haven't explained why!  >< >< Tom Linden wrote: ><K >< >Seems like everybody wants to have a hand at reinventing the log.  This H >< >problem was solved 40 years ago.  Firstly, I have never seen commandK >< >interpreter that uses float, decimal yes, but float no.  Secondly, they I >< >are not scaled integers.  There is scaled binary and scaled decimals.  >< >K >< >As John and I have both pointed out, you will need to provide two forms G >< >of operators, one for natural numbers (5/4 =1) and one for extended 9 >< >precision decimal ( divide(5,4,3,2) = 1.25, note that  >< divide(5,4,3,1)=1.2) ) . >< >and this will not break any existing code. >< >J >< >Moreover, all the builtin functions from the math libs could easily beL >< >made available as lexical functions.  Even BSD Unix had this in the late >< >70's (in bc).  >< >K >< >Ok, suppose this is a fait accompli, then you might ask for the ability D >< >to write arbitrary algebraic expressions in dcl.  Piece of cake, >< just needM >< >nine or so layers of recursive descent.  Oh, and what about type checking  >< >and C >< >semantic analysis?  My point is that we have 3GLs for this type  >< of work andI >< >I think the key here is knowing when to cut it off and avoid clutter.  >< > >< >Next topic?  >< > >< >Happy New Year >< >Tom  >< >  >< >< -----Original Message-----> >< >< From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net]0 >< >< Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 5:58 PM >< >< To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ; >< >< Subject: Re: Floating point arithmetic support in DCLt >< ><t >< >< M >< >< I see   5 / 4 as an integer expression that evaluates to 1!   Make thathC >< >< 5.0 / 4.0 (zeroes not really needed, the decimal point shoulde
 >< be enough)cM >< >< and it's a float expression that evaluates to 1.25.   5./4 and 5/4. areaL >< >< mixed mode expressions that would seem to require some sort of specialI >< >< handling.  You could make a rule that integers will be converted to D >< >< float when found in a mixed mode expression and the expression >< evaluated  >< >< using floating arithmetic. >< ><pM >< >< Others may want to do some fairly complex calculations using DCL but mygL >< >< needs are quite modest; things like calculating the percentage of freeB >< >< space on a disk. . . .  I certainly would not expect to need >< logarithms,K >< >< trig functions or anything like that.  Serious calculations should bepC >< >< done in a language that was designed to support them; Fortranf
 >< or, if you  >< >< must, C. >< ><f >< >< John Reagan wrote: >< ><t >< >< > For  >< >< >o >< >< > A = 5 / 4s >< >< > H >< >< > my language background says that the variable on the left has noC >< >< > impact on parsing the expression on the right.  That is whyi
 >< Pascal has J >< >< > two divide operators, DIV and /.  Just like PLI has two operators.L >< >< > Perhaps you want two divide operators, integer divide spelled as "/"H >< >< > for compatibility and floating divide spelled as something else? >< >< >fB >< >< > Also, we haven't talked about exceptional values, rounding >< modes, etc.K >< >< > If you think if this as real IEEE floating numbers, then we need to@B >< >< > talk about those things.  If you want DCL's floating to be >< more like aL >< >< > fixed-point/packed-decimal model, then we need to define it that wayM >< >< > (and not use the underlying floating registers/instructions to do theW3 >< >< > work since it won't give the right answer).w >< >< >3 >< >< >E >< ><h	 >< >< ---., >< >< Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.@ >< >< Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).G >< >< Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 12/18/2003R >< ><> >< >---i* >< >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> >< >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).E >< >Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 12/18/2003u >< > >< > >< > >< >< ---) >< Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.e= >< Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).lD >< Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 12/18/2003 >< >---' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.e; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).>B >Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 12/18/2003 >H >  o >k   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:26:42 -0500h3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>tY Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in         Dm0 Message-ID: <jKednU699bvOh2ui4p2dnA@comcast.com>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0100050105090300000003009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7biti  F Yes, commercial calculations involve money and accountants care about G the pennies, no matter how many billions are involved.  I wouldn't use eG Fortran, C, or DCL for money calculations.  If I wanted to convert one -G binary floating point format to another, I don't think I'd want to use e Ada for the job. :-)  E For DCL, I think I'd be happy with the equivalent of the little four >* function promotional giveaway calculators.   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  ` >In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEGGCJAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: >  O >  >>< -----Original Message-----< >>< From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net], >>< Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:42 PM >>< To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComaG >>< Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL was(RE: Floating point arithmetic # >>< support in DCL) in DCL) in DCL)g >><  >><iI >>< all right, decimal arithmetic instead of floating.  With the possibleaK >>< exception of a COBOL course I took thirty years ago, I don't think I'velJ >>< ever used decimal arithmetic!!  Neither Fortran nor C support the data >>< type or the operations.o >>N >>That is true, but the world of commerce uses exclusively decimal arithmetic,9 >>which is why they use cobol and PL/I to such an extent.i >>     >> >dF >And why, when Ada was specified leading up to 1983 (quite recently asA >languages go) fixed point arithmetic was part of the definition.c >nE >When Fortran was developed, there was not a long history of Cobol tofG >consider.  By the time Ada came along, there were both Cobol and PL/I.v< >I shall refrain from commenting regarding C (this time :-). >  n >p  & --------------010005010509030000000300) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-asciib Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">o <html> <head>I   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">i   <title></title>M </head>o' <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">yE Yes, commercial calculations involve money and accountants care about K the pennies, no matter how many billions are involved.&nbsp; I wouldn't useoK Fortran, C, or DCL for money calculations.&nbsp; If I wanted to convert onemF binary floating point format to another, I don't think I'd want to use Ada for the job. :-)<br> <br>D For DCL, I think I'd be happy with the equivalent of the little four. function promotional giveaway calculators.<br> <br> Larry Kilgallen wrote:<br>H <blockquote type="cite" cite="midIJ5nEFCTZYbf@eisner.encompasserve.org">  <pre wrap="">In article <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEGGCJAA.tom@kednos.com">&lt;NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEGGCJAA.tom@kednos.com&gt;</a>, "Tom Linden" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tom@kednos.com">&lt;tom@kednos.com&gt;</a> writes:1   </pre>   <blockquote type="cite">     <pre wrap="">t &lt; -----Original Message-----  &lt; From: Richard B. Gilbert [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net">mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net</a>]s- &lt; Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:42 PMDj &lt; To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com">Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com</a>H &lt; Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL was(RE: Floating point arithmetic$ &lt; support in DCL) in DCL) in DCL) &lt; &lt;J &lt; all right, decimal arithmetic instead of floating.  With the possibleL &lt; exception of a COBOL course I took thirty years ago, I don't think I'veK &lt; ever used decimal arithmetic!!  Neither Fortran nor C support the data> &lt; type or the operations.  L That is true, but the world of commerce uses exclusively decimal arithmetic,7 which is why they use cobol and PL/I to such an extent.d
     </pre>   </blockquote>p   <pre wrap=""><!---->E And why, when Ada was specified leading up to 1983 (quite recently asi@ languages go) fixed point arithmetic was part of the definition.  D When Fortran was developed, there was not a long history of Cobol toF consider.  By the time Ada came along, there were both Cobol and PL/I.; I shall refrain from commenting regarding C (this time :-).e   </pre>
 </blockquote>n </body>  </html>y  ( --------------010005010509030000000300--   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2004 11:17:57 -0800r. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)T Subject: Re: Decimal Arith in DCL  was(RE: Floating point arithmetic support in DCL)< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0401021117.ba4d7fe@posting.google.com>  d "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEGDCJAA.tom@kednos.com>...I > Seems like everybody wants to have a hand at reinventing the log.  ThisaF > problem was solved 40 years ago.  Firstly, I have never seen commandI > interpreter that uses float, decimal yes, but float no.  Secondly, theye  B Then what to you call the Stratus example I posted in the original thread?e   Here it is again:e   ready  21:22:22  display_line (calc 2.5 ** 9) 3814.697265625 ready  21:22:40h! display_line (calc 2.5 ** 9 * 10)a 38146.97265625 ready  21:22:51a- display_line (calc 2.5 ** 9 * 10000000000000)a 3.814697265625E+16 ready  21:23:00  display_line (calc 2.5 ** 99)j 2.48920611114446E+39 ready  21:23:32   = Is this not float? Or do you not consider this a command line > interpreter because it is calling the "command function" calc?> ("Command function" is Stratus VOS's equivalent of our lexicalE functions.) You can use math expressions without the calc function in.? certain statements VOS command macros. But it is still the calcm' function that is called to do the work.n   [...]    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmano   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:44:40 -0500N& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>0 Subject: Re: Haven't received 7.3-2 condist yet.8 Message-ID: <udbbvvg4vosg8n1ij560dq0poqm8jf6fdu@4ax.com>  L On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:10:34 -0600, Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> wrote:  J >I haven't seen the 7.3-2 distros yet. Have people been getting them? I'm  >on condist support.  O I received the V7.3-2 distribution on December 4, 2003; and the Q4 CY2003 Alphad SPL on December 9, 2003.I -------------------------------------------------------------------------tI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)II -------------------------------------------------------------------------i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:16:51 -0500b* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>A Subject: Re: Linux kernel security bug ... VMS kernel rock solid! ) Message-ID: <3FF5EDC9.AAE97A64@istop.com>s   Tom Linden wrote:>E > /* IDC Server Quarterly Tracker numbers put OpenVMS server customeri. > /* revenues at USD $75 Million for Q3CY2003.  L Mr Linden, do you realise that all your comments are unterminated ? You needM */ at the end of the line. Or use // at the start of the line to indicate theGM whole line is a comment. Otherwise any text you write after the comments willP/ be ignored since the comments are unterminated.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 11:16:28 -0500c. From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com>/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampd3 Message-ID: <3ff5aeeb$0$6744$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>o   Alan E. Feldman wrote:Z > VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A29FBC.A68CB4AB@SendSpamHere.ORG>... > p >>In article <b096a4ee.0312061344.6390b00c@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >>{...snip...} >>D >>>Boy, you are full of insults today. New Yorkers have bravely goneI >>>about their business despite the horrors of 9/11. I worked with peopleu@ >>>some of whom died in the twin towers. You are very insulting. >>G >>Nothing so terrible as the horror I endured '94-'98 at the hands of am >>NYer.  >  > * > I don't understand this comment. Either: > H > What does this have to do with your calling New Yorkers "weedy", .OR.  > F > OK. I give up. What happened to you that was worse than mass murder,. > and how does that implicate all New Yorkers? > # > Could you be a little more vague?e >  > I >>>I understand your point about certain lawyers (not all lawyers do whatAE >>>you complain about), but do you have to be so insulting to so manyC$ >>>others? Take an anger pill, dude. >> >>Wrong!  All law(lie)yers!!!a >  > G > And how does that make them different from many other people? And youlH > continue to use that spelling trick as if it actually means something.F > I suppose that COBOL is COOL because you can drop the B and get COOLE > (No offense meant to fans of COBOL -- it's just an example -- COBOLeH > may or may not be "cool". But whether it is or not, it's certainly notH > because of this spelling trick. This is only an exmaple. It is easy to* > malign any name by this oft used trick.) > H > OK, you most likely just enjoy spelling lawyers that way. It's hard to2 > read, though. Also, not all liars are lawyers!!! > H > I think the bottom line is that I have no idea what you're saying. (!) >  > Alan E. Feldmanh1 Unfortunately he does have very good provocation,y; a lawsuit that ended with a gag order but IMO a very unfairb? verdict that appeared to me to be pursued as a way to get moneyt8 from some others, but he happened to be the only one who: couldn't afford to keep fighting legally (ran out of moneyB and had major health consequences as well). One of the allegations> was that the guy who sued him had taught him all he knew about< porting Vax to Alpha code, despite the fact he had published; significant examples of this well before showing up workingi< at this guy's place. Neither the lawyer nor the guy who sued: seemed interested in truth from what I heard. The probable? real target was another VMS ISV, whose president remarked to meo@ that it looked to him like the lawyer was working on contingency; and intended to keep filing motions until someone paid him.u  < Really, the gag order on Bruce was the last straw; the whole8 affair really deserved to have a much more public airing7 (including the name, address, phone, etc. of the lawyer < involved, which I don't know) but this is an example of ways8 in which the legal system allows pretty gross injustices to individuals sometimes.t  5 Considering that not only was Bruce's health impacteda9 but his son's was as well, I think bitterness in the cases is well understandable.a  < However I also don't think at this point that the malfeasorsA are likely to repay his losses financially (let alone do anything.8 else to rectify things) and would prefer that no further6 nastiness ensue. Please be aware though that there was7 reason for the anger. (Some of the outbursts that angern> produced probably made things worse but a bunch of whole-cloth: accusations perhaps calculated to reduce him to incoherent7 anger and thus be ineffective in self defense  appearedf> to me to be going on. I heard about it at the time, partially, so my info is not complete.)   Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:17:11 -0500v* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp ) Message-ID: <3FF5D1C5.7F0DBD93@istop.com>e   Glenn Everhart wrote:-D > and had major health consequences as well). One of the allegations@ > was that the guy who sued him had taught him all he knew about> > porting Vax to Alpha code, despite the fact he had published= > significant examples of this well before showing up workingo > at this guy's place.  H Well, this is right up there with suing a restaurant because you spilled coffee on your lap.A  N In normal countries, lawyers are there to resolve or to prevent conflicts. ButG in the USA, it seems that the smell of money has resulted in a class ofLI lawyers who are out to find/create conflicts which will then give them an N opportunity to make lots of money and they don't care if they destroy lives in the process.  M I put them right up there with the likes of New York Bankers who also have no?M qualms about crushing innocent people , even those loyal to them, in order to @ shift responsibility away from themselves so they keep all theirM glory/power/perks even though they be well past their Peter's principle point  of competence.  N For lawyers, there could be a simple solution: if the judge feels that this isI a frivolous lawsuit, then the *lawyer* responsible for making the lawsuit'I would have to pay the fees for the defendant's legal expenses AND pay thetF court fees AND, the lawyer's "record" would be marked with a frivolousH lawsuit. After a certain number of such lawsuits, he would be disbarred.  J Another option is to reduce the number of lawyers produced. Rats have selfJ population control based on available food. Seems that lawyers do not haveL that type of control, and when you have too many of them, the excess lawyers have to create their own food.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:44:45 -0600( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampy/ Message-ID: <00A2B4C7.6D72B6CC.5@tachysoft.com>w  & >Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 11:16:28 -0500/ >From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com>dE >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6b)- >            Gecko/20031208e0 >Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp      2 >Unfortunately he does have very good provocation,< >a lawsuit that ended with a gag order but IMO a very unfair@ >verdict that appeared to me to be pursued as a way to get money9 >from some others, but he happened to be the only one who ; >couldn't afford to keep fighting legally (ran out of moneyiC >and had major health consequences as well). One of the allegationsV? >was that the guy who sued him had taught him all he knew abouta= >porting Vax to Alpha code, despite the fact he had publishedg< >significant examples of this well before showing up working= >at this guy's place. Neither the lawyer nor the guy who sued ; >seemed interested in truth from what I heard. The probablel@ >real target was another VMS ISV, whose president remarked to meA >that it looked to him like the lawyer was working on contingency < >and intended to keep filing motions until someone paid him.    C Another issue is that judges and juries in general are incapable ofeC comprehending technical computer and software engineering concepts.o  J In one case I heard of, the case basically got into a loop.  At each courtO session, the judge would throw up his hands, say he didn't understand, and tellbM the defendents to come back at a later date with a presentation that he could K follow.  After several iterations of this, it became evident that it was in 1 fact impossible for him to understand this stuff.I  M I don't know if this was the same case as Brian's or not, but I think it was.-H The person telling me about it was another well-known figure in the vms I community, who works for the company that is probably the isv referred to3 above.  N My own adventure in software litigation never went to court, due to a betrayalJ by someone in the DFW VMS community who I had *thought* was a friend.  NotL associating with this person any more was one of the reasons I moved to fromM Dallas to Houston in 1997.  Of course, it turns out that Houston doesn't haves- an active decus presence at all, but oh well.y  H Fortunately, I lost only consulting fees I was owed and not money that IL already had.  But it was a miserable enough experience that I can understandO Brian's pain, and I am really, *really* careful who I deal with professionally t	 nowadays.t   WaynePO ===============================================================================aN Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html   fO ===============================================================================dB Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?", 	Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?"   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:15:46 GMTs" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampr0 Message-ID: <00A2B4D4.2F25C5D4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  Z In article <00A2B4C7.6D72B6CC.5@tachysoft.com>, Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> writes:' >>Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 11:16:28 -0500c0 >>From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com>F >>User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6b) >>            Gecko/200312081 >>Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp  >l >i >a3 >>Unfortunately he does have very good provocation,?= >>a lawsuit that ended with a gag order but IMO a very unfaircA >>verdict that appeared to me to be pursued as a way to get moneyR: >>from some others, but he happened to be the only one who< >>couldn't afford to keep fighting legally (ran out of moneyD >>and had major health consequences as well). One of the allegations@ >>was that the guy who sued him had taught him all he knew about> >>porting Vax to Alpha code, despite the fact he had published= >>significant examples of this well before showing up workingr> >>at this guy's place. Neither the lawyer nor the guy who sued< >>seemed interested in truth from what I heard. The probableA >>real target was another VMS ISV, whose president remarked to meIB >>that it looked to him like the lawyer was working on contingency= >>and intended to keep filing motions until someone paid him.1 >4 > D >Another issue is that judges and juries in general are incapable ofD >comprehending technical computer and software engineering concepts. >:K >In one case I heard of, the case basically got into a loop.  At each courttP >session, the judge would throw up his hands, say he didn't understand, and tellN >the defendents to come back at a later date with a presentation that he couldL >follow.  After several iterations of this, it became evident that it was in2 >fact impossible for him to understand this stuff. >iN >I don't know if this was the same case as Brian's or not, but I think it was.  H Judge G.E. Fecescolor couldn't tell the difference between a toaster andH a computer.  He couldn't spell VMS if you'd spotted him the V and M.  E-H mail was, to him, like reading ancient sanscrit.  Of course, most judges0 have the intellect of a swarm of drosophilidae!     I >The person telling me about it was another well-known figure in the vms RJ >community, who works for the company that is probably the isv referred to >above.r   ;0      I >Fortunately, I lost only consulting fees I was owed and not money that IaM >already had.  But it was a miserable enough experience that I can understandtP >Brian's pain, and I am really, *really* careful who I deal with professionally 
 >nowadays.  H Also, avoid histrionic, narcisistic, weedy NY types and their civil suit	 henchmen.    --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.s -- tK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM.            t5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 16:34:25 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampa) Message-ID: <3FF5E3DA.1D136641@istop.com>m  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:eI > The reason justices wear long robes is so that the law(lie)yer can hidemJ > underneath while sucking them off to get what they want.  The corruption6 > trough feeds every aspect of the US judicial system!  L Are courts commercial entities in the USA ? Do they make money on the number of cases they hear?i  K In Canada, they are government entities and their capacity is below demand,yL which results in long waits for less important lawsuits which is detrimentalF to make-money-quick schemes from lawyers and also fosters out of courtL settlements. We also do not have such high awards for the winning side here,; so the motivation from lawyers and citizens isn't has high.u  K The problem is defining a frivolous lawsuit. Judge has to be neutral on theiG matter in case the plaintif may show a very valid reason for the suit. o  J > A collection of rats is known as a plague.  A collection of law(lie)yersJ > is known by the same -- likely because they too manifest as the disease!  J Why do they bury lawyers 20 feet underground ? Because deep down, they are realy good people :-)u   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:47:13 GMTo" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampu0 Message-ID: <00A2B4D0.31DB977B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <3FF5D1C5.7F0DBD93@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: >Glenn Everhart wrote:E >> and had major health consequences as well). One of the allegationstA >> was that the guy who sued him had taught him all he knew about$? >> porting Vax to Alpha code, despite the fact he had published > >> significant examples of this well before showing up working >> at this guy's place.  > I >Well, this is right up there with suing a restaurant because you spilled1 >coffee on your lap. > O >In normal countries, lawyers are there to resolve or to prevent conflicts. ButrH >in the USA, it seems that the smell of money has resulted in a class ofJ >lawyers who are out to find/create conflicts which will then give them anO >opportunity to make lots of money and they don't care if they destroy lives ink
 >the process.e >aN >I put them right up there with the likes of New York Bankers who also have noN >qualms about crushing innocent people , even those loyal to them, in order toA >shift responsibility away from themselves so they keep all their:N >glory/power/perks even though they be well past their Peter's principle point >of competence.L >BO >For lawyers, there could be a simple solution: if the judge feels that this isnJ >a frivolous lawsuit, then the *lawyer* responsible for making the lawsuitJ >would have to pay the fees for the defendant's legal expenses AND pay theG >court fees AND, the lawyer's "record" would be marked with a frivolousmI >lawsuit. After a certain number of such lawsuits, he would be disbarred.E  H The reason justices wear long robes is so that the law(lie)yer can hide H underneath while sucking them off to get what they want.  The corruptionH trough feeds every aspect of the US judicial system!  There's nothing toH curb this.  The legal system is a "good ol' boys" network.  Law(lie)yersH become justices insuring their phylogeny or they become lawmakers liningH the petri dish of the court system with the fertile culture medium which  grows and promotes this disease.    K >Another option is to reduce the number of lawyers produced. Rats have self2K >population control based on available food. Seems that lawyers do not haveaM >that type of control, and when you have too many of them, the excess lawyerst >have to create their own food.i  H A collection of rats is known as a plague.  A collection of law(lie)yersH is known by the same -- likely because they too manifest as the disease!   --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.c --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            t5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" x   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:13:59 -0500e* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampd) Message-ID: <3FF5ED1D.9881D4BD@istop.com>i   Wayne Sewell wrote:eE > Another issue is that judges and juries in general are incapable of3E > comprehending technical computer and software engineering concepts.m  K Include lawyers in this, as well as vice presidents of large new york bankso who hire those lawyers.3  L > In one case I heard of, the case basically got into a loop.  At each courtH > session, the judge would throw up his hands, say he didn't understand,  K Yes, this is a problem. Often, you must put a lot of dots on all the "i" to J cover all the variations. For instance, if customer 1 requests an audit ofE your system, you must make sure that the auditor sign confidentialityuL agreement because he will have access to data belonging to custoemrs 2 and 3L which does not belong to customer 1. Things get more complex when customer 3I is also a customer of customer 1, which means that you must cleary define L which data from customer 3 belongs exclusively to customer 3, and which datd& from customer 3 belongs to customer 1.  H If the lawyers doesn't understand any of this, he will simply reject theM contract and counter with a more simple "you must print all the files on your H systsm and send me a copy so I can verify you have deleted all data from customer 1".  / What happens if you try to print the pagefile ?i  N And yes, this has happened to me.  In the end, New York Bankers figured it wasL simpler to just call me "uncooperative" and tell their buddies to stop doingK business with me, than to admit to their buddies that they were incompetent E and couldn't understand the comprehensive non-disclorure and auditingwM agreement that had been presented to them. (and yes, as a result, I also lostgF customer 3).  I was however comforted when I found out that the seniorK coprorate security VP of a large New York bank had to take an unanticipatedtN early retirement just as the SEC started to investigate his bank for knowinglyL allowing russian mafia money to be laundered through his bank. (his dept wasI in charge of spotting money laundering, so evidently he had cooperated inmJ keeping his eyes conveniently closed when it came to russian mafia money).  L The most interesting thing is that peers from other very large internationalK banks not only believed that banker that I was uncooperative, but tolerated<J that I be let go without having ever signed a non-disclosure agreement forL data that is illegally transmitted between banks across national boundaries.  M It is interesting when one of his buddies whose office faced the WTC had beeneN telling me not to worry and that I'd be well rewarded for my 15 years of loyalQ service, but his secretary told me very quickly that they were going to screw me.i  P > My own adventure in software litigation never went to court, due to a betrayalH > by someone in the DFW VMS community who I had *thought* was a friend.   N Had a similar occurence too. But more of a friendship issue. You give a friendF your old job. He then not only goes around badmouthing you and tellingK everyone how inept I was, but he also goes around telling others that he is<N the one who had setup the disaster recocvery plan that I had setup (looks goodM on his CV I guess). I know because I have kept in touch with his employer :-)o    H When we had the ice storm in 1998 (6 years ago already !), My all mightyF microvax II was just a big useless chunk of cold metal. And I was busyN obtaining, chopping wood and feeding the fireplace and using camping equipmentI to cook meals, listen to news on the power failures on radio and not muchnK else. Looking back it was a total detachement from modern lifestyle withoutoM any worry about lawyers, bad friends,  slimey new york bankers etc. Makes onen> wonder if all the modern complex lifestyle is really worth it.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2004 14:36:12 -0800n. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampf= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0401021436.7a652a54@posting.google.com>u  i Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> wrote in message news:<3ff5aeeb$0$6744$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...n > Alan E. Feldman wrote:\ > > VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A29FBC.A68CB4AB@SendSpamHere.ORG>... > > r > >>In article <b096a4ee.0312061344.6390b00c@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > >>{...snip...} > >>F > >>>Boy, you are full of insults today. New Yorkers have bravely goneK > >>>about their business despite the horrors of 9/11. I worked with peopledB > >>>some of whom died in the twin towers. You are very insulting. > >>I > >>Nothing so terrible as the horror I endured '94-'98 at the hands of a<	 > >>NYer., > >  > > , > > I don't understand this comment. Either: > > J > > What does this have to do with your calling New Yorkers "weedy", .OR.  > > H > > OK. I give up. What happened to you that was worse than mass murder,0 > > and how does that implicate all New Yorkers? > > % > > Could you be a little more vague?  > >  > > K > >>>I understand your point about certain lawyers (not all lawyers do whateG > >>>you complain about), but do you have to be so insulting to so manyc& > >>>others? Take an anger pill, dude. > >> > >>Wrong!  All law(lie)yers!!!h > >  > > I > > And how does that make them different from many other people? And youoJ > > continue to use that spelling trick as if it actually means something.H > > I suppose that COBOL is COOL because you can drop the B and get COOLG > > (No offense meant to fans of COBOL -- it's just an example -- COBOL J > > may or may not be "cool". But whether it is or not, it's certainly notJ > > because of this spelling trick. This is only an exmaple. It is easy to, > > malign any name by this oft used trick.) > > J > > OK, you most likely just enjoy spelling lawyers that way. It's hard to4 > > read, though. Also, not all liars are lawyers!!! > > J > > I think the bottom line is that I have no idea what you're saying. (!) > >  > > Alan E. Feldman>3 > Unfortunately he does have very good provocation, = > a lawsuit that ended with a gag order but IMO a very unfairsA > verdict that appeared to me to be pursued as a way to get moneyi: > from some others, but he happened to be the only one who< > couldn't afford to keep fighting legally (ran out of moneyD > and had major health consequences as well). One of the allegations@ > was that the guy who sued him had taught him all he knew about> > porting Vax to Alpha code, despite the fact he had published= > significant examples of this well before showing up working > > at this guy's place. Neither the lawyer nor the guy who sued< > seemed interested in truth from what I heard. The probableA > real target was another VMS ISV, whose president remarked to meaB > that it looked to him like the lawyer was working on contingency= > and intended to keep filing motions until someone paid him.e > > > Really, the gag order on Bruce was the last straw; the whole: > affair really deserved to have a much more public airing9 > (including the name, address, phone, etc. of the lawyers> > involved, which I don't know) but this is an example of ways: > in which the legal system allows pretty gross injustices > to individuals sometimes.  > 7 > Considering that not only was Bruce's health impactedt; > but his son's was as well, I think bitterness in the case> > is well understandable.m > > > However I also don't think at this point that the malfeasorsC > are likely to repay his losses financially (let alone do anythingk: > else to rectify things) and would prefer that no further8 > nastiness ensue. Please be aware though that there was9 > reason for the anger. (Some of the outbursts that angerw@ > produced probably made things worse but a bunch of whole-cloth< > accusations perhaps calculated to reduce him to incoherent9 > anger and thus be ineffective in self defense  appearedm@ > to me to be going on. I heard about it at the time, partially, > so my info is not complete.) >  > Glenn Everhart  E As bad as that is (and it's hard to tell just exactly what went on --nD more details are needed, though I'm *not* asking for them), it's notD worse than what Al Qaeda wants to do. If they had nukes, they'd nukeC all of North America and Europe for starters. And one day they justw might get some.   F And if they took power without killing everyone, they'd probably shootB most women for alleged "crimes" as they already did in Afghanistan before 9/11.  D Al Qaeda is interested in doing much more harm than just "terrifying us".   Alan E. Feldman:   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2004 15:06:53 -08006. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp5= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0401021506.1036d96f@posting.google.com>   i Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> wrote in message news:<3ff5aeeb$0$6744$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>...s [...]b7 > Considering that not only was Bruce's health impactede; > but his son's was as well, I think bitterness in the casen > is well understandable.o  A And having your son die by being immersed in fiery jet fuel while 0 trapped in a falling elevator is somehow better?   Alan E. Feldmant   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2004 14:21:56 -0800c. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp"= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0401021421.402e816f@posting.google.com>a  X VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A2B479.F93B8767@SendSpamHere.ORG>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0401012100.706c0d06@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:[ > >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message news:<00A29FBC.A68CB4AB@SendSpamHere.ORG>...ms > >> In article <b096a4ee.0312061344.6390b00c@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:n > >> {...snip...} G > >> >Boy, you are full of insults today. New Yorkers have bravely gone>L > >> >about their business despite the horrors of 9/11. I worked with peopleC > >> >some of whom died in the twin towers. You are very insulting.L > >> uJ > >> Nothing so terrible as the horror I endured '94-'98 at the hands of a
 > >> NYer. > >c+ > >I don't understand this comment. Either:i > > I > >What does this have to do with your calling New Yorkers "weedy", .OR. l > . > I'd rather trust a countryman than a townman3 > You can judge by his eyes, take a look if you cana > He'll smile through his guardi > Survival trains hard1 > I'd rather trust a man who works with his handso/ > He looks at you once, you know he understands- > Don't need any shield  > When you're out in the field  . Another non-answer. And it smacks of bigotry.   E If it weren't for cities and city folk, you'd never have any VAXen to"
 play with!  G > >OK. I give up. What happened to you that was worse than mass murder,c/ > >and how does that implicate all New Yorkers?r >  > Torture comes to mind. >  > $ > >Could you be a little more vague? >  > No need to be. >  >   > >> Wrong!  All law(lie)yers!!! > >tH > >And how does that make them different from many other people? And you > J > What was it that Red said in the movie Shawshank Redemption?  That might= > help you understand how rediculous your above statement is.v > : >    RED: You have to be human first. They don't qualify.  > I > How can you insult the rest of the citizenry of this good earth lumping=' > the likes of law(lie)ers with people?3  = Uh, because I didn't do that? You must have your own peculiart definition of the word 'liar'.  I > >continue to use that spelling trick as if it actually means something.lG > >I suppose that COBOL is COOL because you can drop the B and get COOLkF > >(No offense meant to fans of COBOL -- it's just an example -- COBOLI > >may or may not be "cool". But whether it is or not, it's certainly notlI > >because of this spelling trick. This is only an exmaple. It is easy toT+ > >malign any name by this oft used trick.)< > >sI > >OK, you most likely just enjoy spelling lawyers that way. It's hard tov3 > >read, though. Also, not all liars are lawyers!!!L > # > True!  But all lawyers are liars.s  F So? Actually, that may not be true. Have you checked every lawyer? No. So how can you know?  I > >I think the bottom line is that I have no idea what you're saying. (!)a >  > Stand here in my shoes e  # And just how am I going to do that?r  / > (or those of a few others that I wish I couldaF > name) and then tell me that I have no idea what I am saying.  I prayF > that you and the rest of this forum never receive such an education!  F I said that *I* had no idea what you were saying, but after this post,. I think *you* have no idea what you're saying.   >  > --D > http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityE >                             solutions that others only claim to be.   % And what's with the beanstalk saying?o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:08:56 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp00 Message-ID: <00A2B4EC.5FFED271@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <b096a4ee.0401021421.402e816f@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: {...snip...} > / >Another non-answer. And it smacks of bigotry. 9   No... just Gabriel.e    G >So? Actually, that may not be true. Have you checked every lawyer? No.N >So how can you know?C  G From a good statistical sample and I high correlation coefficient, it'sv$ pretty safe to draw said conclusion.    & >And what's with the beanstalk saying?  F In Held 'Twas In I -- Procol Harum.  Something a simple Google search  should have disclosed. --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.) -- 4K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM6            :5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:21:49 GMT8" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcampa0 Message-ID: <00A2B4EE.2CF238D4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <b096a4ee.0401021506.1036d96f@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:j >Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> wrote in message news:<3ff5aeeb$0$6744$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>... >[...]8 >> Considering that not only was Bruce's health impacted< >> but his son's was as well, I think bitterness in the case >> is well understandable. >1B >And having your son die by being immersed in fiery jet fuel while1 >trapped in a falling elevator is somehow better?u  J Being served a complaint in the waiting room of the Deborah Heart and LungJ Center whilst you're awaiting word on your son's reconstructive open heart surgery is OK by you?  e  ; My sympathies go out to you for your loss of your son, BTW.d   --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.- -- -K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            o5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 23:17:07 -0500-* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>/ Subject: Re: Pictures from the OpenVMS bootcamp5) Message-ID: <3FF64222.A034E211@istop.com>s   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:C > And having your son die by being immersed in fiery jet fuel whileC2 > trapped in a falling elevator is somehow better?  I Terrorists make no pretens at being logical. Their acts reflect emotionaleH desperation and succesful brainwashing. They are out to get some sort ofN revenge and hurt others as much as possible, generally targetting a random set2 of humans who are part of the group they dislike.   M American lawyers pretend to be educated, pretend to be logical. Pretend to dosG good for the country. Their actions are condoned by the government. The I justice system is part of your very own government that is supposed to beaC working for you. Lawyers have specific targets they try to destroy.-  I Just because terrorists have shown to be capable of performing an instantmT calamity doesn't mean that what lawyers do everyday suddently has become acceptable.  I Just remember that your country has sponsored terrorism (under the kinder0I label of "Freedom Fighters") such as the IRA, much of the Balkan conflict J (until the USA decided to get involved) as well as the now infamous Ossama: while he was fighting the russian invasion of Afghanistan.  L WTC was beyond a terrorist act. I view it as a calamity. I prefer to look atK the human size/suffering of this calamity than at the initial cause. On the M CBS documentary 9-11 aired 6 months after, one fireman said it best: "how bady6 was it up there that the better solution was to jump".  K Those who were stuck for over an hour up there suffered a lot. And lets not E forget those who survived and even those who witnessed from up close.   N Sometime ago, the CBC in Canada had a documentary on how the media had handledL the calamity. I think that it was the Daily News (or some other lesser knownL NY newspaper that had a picture of a severed hand on the ground on its frontN page, and the editor explained: "That is what people saw as they walked out ofT the site, and we didn't want to hide the fact that this was a very traumatic event".  M Some of the survivors have had to leave NYC because everytime they walked offfI the ferry to get to their (new) office, the sight of the sphere sculptureh% formerly at the WTC traumatized them.   N And to put things in perspective, there 10 times more dead in Bam Iran than onK 9-11. And a "priceless" 2000 year old fortress was transformed into rubble.lM The WTC was less than 30 years old. But since it happened very quickly and noyI extensive TV coverage of it as it happened, it has far less impact on ouryN minds and seems more distant. But to the people who survived Bam, it will be a terrible memory.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 18:35:27 GMTo" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SIMH V3.1 releasedp0 Message-ID: <00A2B4BD.C9A860F1@SendSpamHere.ORG>  [ In article <vvb7189h3f4790@corp.supernews.com>, "rob kas" <robnospam@paychoice.com> writes:a >g? >"> Subject: simh vax emulator running on iVMS (vms on itanium)a >t >o >n >             Wow Way Cool !!!!f >  >                   Robc >       > I'd like a working executable for OS X assuming that ethernet > support will function.  Otherwise, I can make do with the V3.0! version I presnelty have running.e   --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.d --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2004 19:10:21 -05003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>e# Subject: Re: Tom Linden's use of /*s. Message-ID: <mdd4qvdnb82.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  , Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:   > Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:i  M >> Hm, actualy from long ago I seem to remember something called "Programming / >> Language One" and thought that was "PL/1"...   J > I remember our IBM contact of many years ago being quite adamant that itI > should be PL/I (and she actually pronounced it Pee Ell Eye, which bit I. > thought was wrong).   N Your IBM contact was clearly younger than I, or at least got into the businessM much later.  I first learned PL/1 (with a numeric, EBCDIC 0xF1) in 1969 whilecN still in high school; by the time I was working for the College of Administra-O tive Science Data Center at Ohio State in 1974, it had changed to PL/I with them" Optimizing and Checkout compilers.  : Sorry, but that was all long before the VAX was a gleam...  P (And the IBMer was probably just making sure you knew which character she meant. At least, I hope so.)o   --  . Rich Alderson					    | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |< news@alderson.users.panix.com			    | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |7 			 --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |e   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2004 12:15:43 -0800o- From: contracer11@uol.com.br (Shiva MahaDeva)l8 Subject: Transferring files from VAX to W2K Professional= Message-ID: <ddf392ea.0401021215.56d06969@posting.google.com>s  N In my job Im trying transfer files from VAX to W2K Professional , but when I  issue:  $ FTP smw2k335e I get the message:+  %FTP-E-NETERR, I/O error on network devicei4 -SYSTEM-F-REJECT, connect to network object rejected  G When I issue FTP from W2K to VAX, connection is established, like this: 
  >ftp VAX1  connected to VAX1*  220 VAX1 FTP server (version 3.3) ready.   User (VAX1:((none)):o    > What could I make to transfer files from VAX to my W2K server? Thanks in advance.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:36:43 +0100p2 From: Wilm Boerhout <w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl>< Subject: Re: Transferring files from VAX to W2K Professional* Message-ID: <bt4l4h$cka$1@reader08.wxs.nl>   >  $ FTP smw2k335s > I get the message:- >  %FTP-E-NETERR, I/O error on network devicen6 > -SYSTEM-F-REJECT, connect to network object rejected  G This means that the FTP client on VMS cannot connect to the FTP server nG on your Windows machine. Are you sure that your Windows machine has an r FTP server up and running?  I > When I issue FTP from W2K to VAX, connection is established, like this:h >  >ftp VAX1 >  connected to VAX1, >  220 VAX1 FTP server (version 3.3) ready.  >  User (VAX1:((none)):t  I This looks better. Apparently VMS has an FTP server ready and available. nG Now all you need is to log on to that server with a valid VMS username RH and -when requested- password, and then GET or PUT files. Do not assume / that the VMS FTP sever allows anonymous access.8   HTH,   -- G
 Wilm BoerhoutE   w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl(    (remove OLD PAINT from reply address)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:26:09 +1100U From: "Antony Wardle" <remove_clothes_antony.wardle@_remove_clothers_optusnet.com.au> < Subject: Re: Transferring files from VAX to W2K Professional< Message-ID: <3ff63658$0$18752$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>  8 assuming that you get your ftp server on your pc working  = $copy/ftp/bin (if binary)  vmsfile w2kpc"username password"::    works fairly well.  @ Looks like your vax has an old ip stack, think about an upgrade.   Cheers   Antony    : "Shiva MahaDeva" <contracer11@uol.com.br> wrote in message7 news:ddf392ea.0401021215.56d06969@posting.google.com...eH > In my job Im trying transfer files from VAX to W2K Professional , but when I > issue: >  $ FTP smw2k335d > I get the message:- >  %FTP-E-NETERR, I/O error on network deviceV6 > -SYSTEM-F-REJECT, connect to network object rejected >hI > When I issue FTP from W2K to VAX, connection is established, like this:g >  >ftp VAX1 >  connected to VAX1+ >  220 VAX1 FTP server (version 3.3) ready.g >  User (VAX1:((none)):  >p >e@ > What could I make to transfer files from VAX to my W2K server? > Thanks in advance.     ---b& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.557 / Virus Database: 349 - Release Date: 30/12/2003    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.005 ************************