0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 17 Jan 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 33      Contents:1 Re: 2 unrelated Q: Mozilla 1.6 and DS15 soundcard  Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... Re: Anonymous Read-Only & Re: c openvms newbie %CC-W-PTRMISMATCH Re: Detaching processes on VMSH Re: Faced with flagging PC sales,  HPand others are pushing aggressivelyD RE: HP Integrity Superdome server sets world record for 10-terabyte, Re: IP Address problems  Re: IP Address problems  Re: IP Address problems P Re: Judge Upholds Jury Decision In Microsoft Web-Browser Patent Case - U.S. Pate Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  OT Spam  Pages in a print file. Re: Pages in a print file. Re: Pages in a print file.3 RE: Personal Workstation 500a/au hardware questions 3 Re: Personal Workstation 500a/au hardware questions   RE: Rally VAX to Alpha Migration  RE: Rally VAX to Alpha Migration Re: The Inquirer@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems RE: VAXstation question  RE: Vaxstation some question...  vms and floppy Re: vms and floppy Re: vms and floppy Re: vms and floppy. Re: VOLUME SHADOW over FDDI using Alpha and CI  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:30:30 +0100  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>: Subject: Re: 2 unrelated Q: Mozilla 1.6 and DS15 soundcard2 Message-ID: <bu4gk1$cu2$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>  6 Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.68.40 wrote:U > In article <bu1ahu$4lf$1@news4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:  > [...]  > H >>Yep, it seems there are simply not enough resourses (manpower) at VMS N >>engineering to keep the Mozilla releases up to date. There even isn't a 1.5 N >>final yet, so I guess it may be quite a while before we see any kind of 1.6 G >>release. I don't think anyone (incl. engineering) is happy with this   >>situation. >  > P > Do you know if the work on a native VMS build system for Mozilla is finished ?  - Do you mean if there will be no new versions?   F There will be new versions I have been assured, but when I don't know.  N All Mozilla versions are build with traceback information, and that does make  them a bit slow....    >  > If I refer to F > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/cswb/cswb_source.htmlF > Mozilla build is made under a Posix environment (and very slow ...). > 	 > Patrick  > --Q > =============================================================================== P > pmoreau@ath.cena.fr  (CENA)      ______      ___   _          (Patrick MOREAU)6 > moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|L > CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  P > BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |P > 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|P > http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/Q > ===============================================================================    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jan 2004 00:01:27 -0800' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) ' Subject: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... = Message-ID: <734da31c.0401170001.4c55bcca@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bu9903$o69$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > David Svensson wrote: h > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<w7-dnVmAuIMaTZrdRVn-uw@metrocast.net>... > > 8 > >>"David Svensson" <icerq4a@spray.se> wrote in message; > >>news:734da31c.0401150736.65c94cd6@posting.google.com...  > >>N > >>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> > >>B > >> wrote in message news:<bu3rct$qce$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > >> > >>>>David Svensson wrote:  > >>>>( > >>>>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy > >>< > >><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message0 > >>news:<bu1eh4$1ct$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > >> > >>   > >>L > >>>>>It is currently expensive and hotter, but in my real world experienceM > >>>>>with testing customer database setups, nothing beats Itanium today and M > >>>>>that matters. (this includes testing of all current CPU architectures)  > >>>> > >>>>M > >>>>So you have tried an unspecified DBMS on a Power4+ P690, a USIII 1.2Ghz L > >>>>SF Sun and a GS1280. You must have access to a great deal of expensive > >>>>kit, congratulations.  > >>>> > >>>  > >>>Thanks,K > >>>but they are 4-way boxes, so there is no need to have P690 and GS1280.  > >>L > >>Ah - that explains why Itanic out-performed the competition.  But if youN > >>actually were able to obtain a top-of-the-line 4-processor 1.7 GHz POWER4+H > >>system for comparison I'd be very interested to see the figures:  myP > >>suspicion is that it would at the very least give Itanic a strong challenge,E > >>since in larger system configurations the top-of-the-line POWER4+ P > >>out-performs the top-of-the-line Itanic on a per-processor basis by close to > >>50% on TPC-C.  > >  > > G > > We got 1.5Ghz POWER4+. 1.7Ghz was not available in the 4-way boxes, J > > and I don't think 1.7Ghz is availale now either. I agree though that aF > > 1.7GHz could be very close to a Itanium 1.5GHz. I do think howeverJ > > that IBM's boxes get good database scores partly because of very large > > L3 caches. > >  > 1 > Sort of like Itanium II's very large L2 caches.   A Itanium II has up to 6MB L3 cache, and that certainly helps here.   @ For database stuff a 128MB shared L3 cache is in my opinion much> better. And, since it is partly shared the problems with cache coherency issues is smaller.   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jan 2004 00:12:19 -0800' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) ' Subject: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... = Message-ID: <734da31c.0401170012.51700974@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bu98uc$o69$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > David Svensson wrote:  > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bu8etb$f1o$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > >  > >>David Svensson wrote:  > >> > >>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bu3rct$qce$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > >>>  > >>>  > >>>>David Svensson wrote:  > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<bu1eh4$1ct$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > >>>>>  > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>L > >>>>>It is currently expensive and hotter, but in my real world experienceM > >>>>>with testing customer database setups, nothing beats Itanium today and M > >>>>>that matters. (this includes testing of all current CPU architectures)  > >>>> > >>>>M > >>>>So you have tried an unspecified DBMS on a Power4+ P690, a USIII 1.2Ghz L > >>>>SF Sun and a GS1280. You must have access to a great deal of expensive > >>>>kit, congratulations.  > >>>> > >>>  > >>>  > >>>Thanks,K > >>>but they are 4-way boxes, so there is no need to have P690 and GS1280.  > >> > >>Which 4 way Sun ?  > >>Which 4 way IBM ?  > >>Which 4 way AlphaServer ?  > >> > >>Regards  > >>Andrew Harrison  > >  > > Q > > They were the best 4-way servers available from each vendor in November 2003.  > ! > You didn't answer the question.  >  > Model numbers CPU's   E I might be able to drive to the place next week, but from what I know F and because there are not that many to choose from, I think I can make very good guesses.   The Sun is most likely one of - Sun Fire V440        1.28-GHz UltraSPARC IIIi  or+ Sun Fire V480        1.2 GHz UltraSPARC III    The Alpha is  AlphaServer ES47     1.0 GHz EV7  - I don't know about the IBM, a p630 or a p650.    ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jan 2004 09:23:16 -0800' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) ' Subject: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... = Message-ID: <734da31c.0401170923.2d111abe@posting.google.com>   [ JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message news:<40086E2E.A2F67871@istop.com>...  > Rob Young wrote:D > >         You are either deliberately missing or overlooking whereC > >         high-end (read: 64-bit Enterprise) computing is headed.  > > K > >         Intel has Spink and Bannon and Emer and crew.  It isn't much of K > >         a stretch to assume there is a future Itanium chip that has all . > >         the features of EV7 and then some, >  > K > And you are either deliberately missing or overlooking where those former  > Decies are actually working. > N > Consider that AMD's offering already has many Alpha features inside, such asL > glue etc. Consider that Intel will have to ramp up its 32 bit 8086 into 64 > bits very soon now.  > O > My money is on the ex dec engineers being involved with the 8086 architecture M > more than with IA64. Their experience and mentality is much more compatible F > with the 8086, especially since the 8086 already includes much alphaL > technology (remember when palmer pardonned Intel for having stoled all the  > Alpha stuff for its pentium ?) > P > The IA64 engineers already have official access to the Alpha technologies theyF > think could be implemented. But the Alpha engineers are used to RISCJ > platforms, not EPIC stuff. So, if you are intel, and you have a bunch ofO > really smart RISC engineers from whom's you've already stolen much IP for the N > 8086, it then makes sense to put those to work on the 8086 and then come outI > with something that will make AMD's 64 bit 8086 look like a microvax I.  > --  D It doesn't matter if it is RISC or EPIC. The new technologies in EV7C that Rob refer to make just as much sense in Itanium as in EV7, and @ those particular people have, from what I know, not been heavilyE involved in the Alpha ISA in recent years. There are also differences > between AMD's and Alpha on-die features, where the Alpha's are	 superior.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:26:08 GMT 0 From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>  Subject: Re: Anonymous Read-Only. Message-ID: <Qc7Ob.71704$Rc4.241456@attbi_s54>   Michael D. Ober wrote:  N > Does anyone know how to get NFS (GuardianOS Linux kernal) to allow unlimitedK > read-only access to an NFS share.  All the access will be from one client J > (VMS 7.3) , but the user accounts are highly variable, so keeping a user( > list on the NFS server isn't feasible.  ? The traditional way was to put the files in user guest, UID -2, & and world read access for those files.  < If the files have world read permission, it shouldn't matter what UID or GID they have.   -- glen    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:43:52 -0000 % From: "L. Blunt" <withheld@my.choice> / Subject: Re: c openvms newbie %CC-W-PTRMISMATCH ; Message-ID: <40090350$0$23463$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>   G Code written with the old VAX C compiler allowed the passing of integer I constants, this is not in any official C standard (although very useful).   D If you are just porting to Alpha and/or DEC-C, you can just user theE /Standard=VAXC qualifier and it will also allow this code to compile. J Otherwise you need to go through the code creating temporary variables and2 pass those by reference in place or the constants.  / <tutor_removespam_@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message 2 news:3ipg00taque0psr5f3qh178q5fcdga893q@4ax.com... > Hi, @ > Below is the code which ran perfectly on VAX, now fails to getA > compiled on ALPHA....Do I need to do some sort to type casting? @ > By doing type casting to keep the compiler happy, what type of0 > problems do I face during the testing phase... > 	 > Thanks, D > ****************************************************************** > In the function definition: & > unsigned long myfunc(int *something) > {  > ...some code here  > }  > & > In the main, the code is as follows: >  > main() > {  > unsigned long status;  >  > ...some code here  >  > status = myfunc(&NULL);  > }  >  > I got this error:  >  > B > %CC-W-PTRMISMATCH, In this statement, the referenced type of theC > pointer value "&((void ...)0)" is "pointer to void", which is not  > compatible with "int". > 0 > ********************************************** > tutor at cfl dot rr dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:16:32 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: Detaching processes on VMS - Message-ID: <87k73qogun.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   3 JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) writes:   C > Getting virtual terminal support for the SSH server I wrote was a B > bit problematic.  By default, the server creates the interactiveE > processes with the same flag used when creating DECterm sessions so A > you don't get prompted for a username/password.  Unfortunately, C > skipping that dialog also makes loginout.exe skip all the virtual B > terminal code (binding the PTY to a VT, looking for disconnectedB > processes, etc).  I was never able to find a supported interfaceB > that lets you do all the magic that loginout does in switching a$ > process's terminal to a VT device.  ; If (from rotting memory) SYS$INPUT and SYS$OUTPUT and maybe < SYS$COMMAND are `right' loginout runs but does not ask for a: username/password. I think this was in the IDS book in the process creation stuff.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 17 Jan 2004 16:47:41 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)Q Subject: Re: Faced with flagging PC sales,  HPand others are pushing aggressively 9 Message-ID: <bubovd$f7kbs$1@ID-135708.news.uni-berlin.de>   / In article <100gcdelovk8dc@corp.supernews.com>, 2 	Greg Cagle <news@removethisgregcagle.com> writes:; > Bill Gunshannon said the following on 1/16/2004 10:30 AM:  > 3 >> In article <bu8f8v$f1o$6@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, U >> 	Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:  >>   >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>> K >>>>I always thought that HP-PARC stood for tht Hewlett Packard - Palo Alto E >>>>Research Center.  In a report on Venture Capital I find the line: G >>>>    "Few anchor companies or organizations (eg. HP-PARC, Stanford)"  >>>> >>>  >>>Wasn't that Xerox >>>  >>   >>  G >> Xerox had a "PARC" as well, and consdering that Palo Alto was called H >> Silicon Valley I would imagine most of the major players at that time! >> had research facilities there.  > % > Bill - if it's this report you saw:  > : > http://www.vic-ikp.info/Venture%20Capital%20Database.pdf > B > then you misquoted it - there's a comma between "HP" and "PARC": > D > "Few anchor companies or organizations (e.g. HP, PARC, Stanford)." > ; > HP's research facilities have always been called HP Labs.  >   B Well, I did say I could be wrong.  Probably need new glasses.  :-)  B But I did think I vaguely remembered HP have something called PARC just like Xerox.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:13:27 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> M Subject: RE: HP Integrity Superdome server sets world record for 10-terabyte, R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB237DFE@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>  A > Yeah, that crossed my mind too.  Never dealt with CA myself,=20 E > but I've heard all the horror stories about good products gone bad.  >=20A > True, I would also prefer vms be bought by somebody not also=20 @ > mired in eunuchs and the billyworld, and who would allow it=20) > to compete, but somebody other than CA.  >=20 > Wayne  > = L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=$ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D5 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ? > Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  =20  > wayne@tachysoft.com ? > http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  =20  > = L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=$ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D5 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D D > Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?". > 	Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?" >=20   Wayne,  H While there were some past issues, the CA folks I have talked to at some@ recent events appear to indicate a different attitude right now.  ; As an example, check out CA's OpenVMS specific web site at: 8 http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/ProductFamily.asp?ID=3D4017  F From what I have heard (perhaps someone can confirm?), the prices have/ also come down at lot in the last 12-18 months.    Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jan 2004 01:58:01 -0800$ From: chrisgaze@msn.com (Chris Gaze)  Subject: Re: IP Address problems= Message-ID: <57512a77.0401170158.6a6777eb@posting.google.com>    Hi Everyone,   Thanks for all your help.   D I mistyped in some of the ip addresses and subnet masks when postingF my original message (too tired to think straight), although the subnetD mask on the alpha was incorrect and did not match the subnet mask of/ the router.  I have subsequently modified this.   B I think the problem could be to do with arp, or it could simply beE that my tcpip module is knackered on my alpha.  Stopping and starting F TCPIP tends to rectify the problem, but again, only for 15-20 mins.  I@ have run a network monitor on the network and found some strange packets comming from the alpha.   E I am going to re-install TCPIP and start a fresh to see what happens.    Thanks for all your help.    Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:16:16 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>  Subject: Re: IP Address problems) Message-ID: <40090B3B.89F31AAF@istop.com>    Chris Gaze wrote: G > I am going to re-install TCPIP and start a fresh to see what happens.    No need to.   J You might want to go into TCPIP, delete all permanent and volatile routes,1 delete all interfaces. (again perm and volatile).   L Then, you can use @TCPIP$CONFIG in sys$MANAGER to recreate your environment.M What is important is to create the basic routes properly. This then gives you A a good template to create similar routes when you add interfaces.   M And think about your various subnets. If there is only one router out of your H lan, then you can yuse a default route to the router and that will catch anything not in local subnets.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:18:38 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>  Subject: Re: IP Address problems/ Message-ID: <4009362E.5E951AA@sture.homeip.net>    Chris Gaze wrote:  >  > Hi Everyone, >  > Thanks for all your help.  > F > I mistyped in some of the ip addresses and subnet masks when postingH > my original message (too tired to think straight), although the subnetF > mask on the alpha was incorrect and did not match the subnet mask of1 > the router.  I have subsequently modified this.  > D > I think the problem could be to do with arp, or it could simply beG > that my tcpip module is knackered on my alpha.  Stopping and starting H > TCPIP tends to rectify the problem, but again, only for 15-20 mins.  IB > have run a network monitor on the network and found some strange! > packets comming from the alpha.  > G > I am going to re-install TCPIP and start a fresh to see what happens.  >  > Thanks for all your help.  >   < Please have a look of a couple of log files I have of TCP/IP configuration sessions:   / Configuration from scratch via TCPIP$CONFIG.COM   0 http://www.sture.homeip.net/vms/tcpip_config.txt  < Deleting that config and reconfiguring via the command line:  8 http://www.sture.homeip.net/vms/tcpip_config_partial.txt  H You never know, you might spot something you have previously overlooked.   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:55:30 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> Y Subject: Re: Judge Upholds Jury Decision In Microsoft Web-Browser Patent Case - U.S. Pate ( Message-ID: <4008F882.1010600@rdrop.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  I > What I like it that MS is big enough to threaten the Patent Office.  MS ( > could simply *license* the technology.  I This is over ActiveX, isn't it? No great loss... Matter of fact, it'd be   a net security gain.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:15:59 +0100  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question2 Message-ID: <buarm8$1rk$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:R > In article <bu9tp2$613$1@pcls4.std.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) writes: > 5 >>In article <y77N3L676oBF@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 >>Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote: >>, >>>In article <bu8jgu$tej$1@pcls4.std.com>, * >>>bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) writes: >>E >>>>If you mean to say that it shouldn't be wrapped in a DCL script,  F >>>>I'd disagree.  Though I haven't actually seen the contents of the D >>>>MOZILLA.COM script itself, I'm guessing it echoes the purpose ofI >>>>mozilla Bourne shell wrapper script used on Unix systems.  The script E >>>>does housekeeping in terms of setting up the environment to tell  F >>>>the mozilla binary where to find its plugins, fonts, and the JVM. G >>>>It also figures out whether you're currently running an instance of E >>>>mozilla, so if you invoke the command a second time, it knows to  @ >>>>open a new browser window using the already running process. >>> B >>>All of those things can be done from within an executable image; >>>(presuming the previously running image is cooperative).  >>E >>True, but I really don't see why separating these platform specific 9 >>environment bits out from the exe is such a bad thing.   >  > A > I understand that to some people the difference may not matter. : > You should understand that to some of us it does matter. >  > B >>>>Given all the subtle and not-so-subtle variations between the D >>>>supported platforms (non-Unix included), it's simpler to do this> >>>>housekeeping in small platform specific wrapper scripts.   >>> G >>>I am interested in what is reasonable for the VMS end user, not what D >>>makes the developer's life easier.  This is the same as any other >>>piece of software.  >>B >>Well, it is /free/ afterall which makes it rather different from >>commercial software, >  > E > You are making a good argument for avoiding "free" software if that   > is the attitude of proponents. >  > I >>>The fact that something was ported from Unix is no excuse for it being 
 >>>shoddy. >>D >>Ouch.  So tell me, exactly what web browser would you be using if $ >>Mozilla hadn't been ported to VMS? >  > 5 > One that had been ported in a VMS-standard fashion.  > @ > Consider web servers, where Purveyor was driven off the market< > because the competition was "free".  Now we learn that the> > newest Apache cannot even handle variable length record text: > files.  _That_ illustrates the value of "free" software.  Q No, it doesn't. I'm sure if engineering wanted to, they could handle any kind of  O file. The problem seems to be that they need to be able to give the exact size  N of a file (in bytes). and since all files are downloaded in stream-lf format, . they need the files in to be stream-lf format.  Q On the other hand it would also be possible to calculate the 'stream-lf size' of  N a variable length record text file by reading all records and add a lf to the E each record. The overhead would be minimal for the average text file.   P The problem with most of this open source software is that not enough effort is I done to incorporate them into VMS. Much of this software can only handle  O stream-lf files (sometimes even only stream-lf configuration files !), and can  * only be used with Unix style commandlines.  Q The overall impression is that these utilities are added to VMS with the help of  M sticky tape and chewing gum so to speak. We do want these utilities (I do at  H least), but could we please have a bit more then a very basic Unix port.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:12:11 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question) Message-ID: <40090A47.3B89FE33@istop.com>    Dirk Munk wrote:R > On the other hand it would also be possible to calculate the 'stream-lf size' ofO > a variable length record text file by reading all records and add a lf to the G > each record. The overhead would be minimal for the average text file.   M Especially when you consider that the file needs to be read anyways. Read the K thing in memory, calculate its size, then you can report its size and start K transmitting. And since a good web server would keep the file in memory for # caching, it can also keep its size.   M For very large text files, then the issue of re-using the link is moot as the K server is likely to have finished serving the other components of a page by N the time the large file has been transmitted. This way, with no keep-alive forP that link, the web server need not report the file size before sending the data.  G I suspect that this has more to do with staff cutbacks which results in M pressure to make the vms-specific apache version less different from the unix J version. In the end, vms might end up with just the vanilla apache source.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:04:41 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question/ Message-ID: <400932E9.F55EC95@sture.homeip.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > R > In article <bu9tp2$613$1@pcls4.std.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) writes:7 > > In article <y77N3L676oBF@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 > > Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:- > >> In article <bu8jgu$tej$1@pcls4.std.com>, , > >> bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) writes: > > G > >> > If you mean to say that it shouldn't be wrapped in a DCL script, H > >> > I'd disagree.  Though I haven't actually seen the contents of theG > >> > MOZILLA.COM script itself, I'm guessing it echoes the purpose of L > >> > mozilla Bourne shell wrapper script used on Unix systems.  The scriptG > >> > does housekeeping in terms of setting up the environment to tell H > >> > the mozilla binary where to find its plugins, fonts, and the JVM.J > >> > It also figures out whether you're currently running an instance ofG > >> > mozilla, so if you invoke the command a second time, it knows to C > >> > open a new browser window using the already running process.  > >>D > >> All of those things can be done from within an executable image= > >> (presuming the previously running image is cooperative).  > > G > > True, but I really don't see why separating these platform specific : > > environment bits out from the exe is such a bad thing. > A > I understand that to some people the difference may not matter. : > You should understand that to some of us it does matter. > D > >> > Given all the subtle and not-so-subtle variations between theG > >> > supported platforms (non-Unix included), it's simpler to do this ? > >> > housekeeping in small platform specific wrapper scripts.  > >>I > >> I am interested in what is reasonable for the VMS end user, not what F > >> makes the developer's life easier.  This is the same as any other > >> piece of software.  > > D > > Well, it is /free/ afterall which makes it rather different from > > commercial software, > E > You are making a good argument for avoiding "free" software if that   > is the attitude of proponents. > K > >> The fact that something was ported from Unix is no excuse for it being  > >> shoddy. > > E > > Ouch.  So tell me, exactly what web browser would you be using if & > > Mozilla hadn't been ported to VMS? > 5 > One that had been ported in a VMS-standard fashion.  > @ > Consider web servers, where Purveyor was driven off the market< > because the competition was "free".  Now we learn that the> > newest Apache cannot even handle variable length record text: > files.  _That_ illustrates the value of "free" software.  D With the caveat that the following comp.os.vms posting is dated JulyG 2000, so does not necessarily represent the state of play on the latest  VMS version(s):   _ http://groups.google.ch/groups?hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=VA.0000007e.2988c796%40sture.ch&rnum=10     Paul Sture wrote:  >David Mathog wrote: <snip>  H > However, if everything is to make stream-lf by default, then how aboutI > FINALLY making SORT, TYPE, and the rest of the standard utilities smart F > enough to handle stream-lf properly?  Users should not need to set a: > logical to force SORT to ignore the nonsensical C RTL's  >  >       Longest Record: 32767   E Now that is a very valid complaint. I am told that a better way is to  use G a different syntax in C to write output files in the first place (don't  ask,A I'm not a C expert), but of course when porting stuff, your point  stands.   E I recently had a developer trying to sort a 5,000 block file and SORT  ran 9 out of space on a disk with 20,000,000 free blocks on it. E Whilst EDT provided the quick and dirty solution, the better solution  was:  G --------------------start of DCL -------------------------------------- ) $! take the fdl definition from SYS$INPUT 0 $ CONVERT /FDL=SYS$INPUT  infile.dat outfile.dat FILE'      ORGANIZATION            sequential    RECORD,      CARRIAGE_CONTROL        carriage_return%      FORMAT                  variable  $ ! Convert Job done, now sort: + $ SORT outfile.dat *.*        ! do the sort H ----------------------end of DCL ---------------------------------------     >  > and  > " >    $ type/tail streamlf_file.txt > G > should be able to work properly on a large stream-lf file and not do:  >  > $ type/tail SWISSPROT.SEQ;1 K > %TYPE-W-OPENIN, error opening MSCDISK:[SWISSPROT]SWISSPROT.SEQ;1 as input : > -SYSTEM-E-UNSUPPORTED, unsupported operation or function- > -RMS-F-ORG, invalid file organization value  > L > I find this case particularly annoying - TYPE can certainly tell that the 4 > file type is stream-lf, then it can look up        >  >   End-of-File VBN: 85205,  >   Offset: %X'0093' > K > and work backwards from there.  Pat Rankin's EXTRACT/tail can handle this J > file type, and transfer the exact same file to a Unix system and "tail" J > will have no problem with it.  Back when we used to have POSIX installedK > I used to use the "tail" from that for these sorts of operations - and it  > worked just fine.    > I > Can you imagine the criticism we would heap upon any other OS that had  J > these sorts of ridiculous glitches - a SORT that chokes on trivial text M > files and a "tail" that won't tail a large file - the only kind you really   > need it for??? > L > Note that I'm not saying "get rid of all these text file types" - VMS willK > have to continue to support them until the last version ships.  I'm only  J > saying that a single default text file type would be preferable to the N > we have now. > @ I am afraid I cannot agree to the idea of the default type being
 stream-lf.G Apart from the probability it would break too many things the purist in  meG cannot stand this idea of wasting cpu cycles scanning strings for an lf  (yes, G we're back to the null-terminated string subject again). Besides which,  I likeE the idea of having binary data in records, which totally precludes lf  termination.  F As to SORT, TYPE, EDT, TPU (to name just a few) supporting stream-lf I	 do agree.        --
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jan 2004 07:43:45 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question3 Message-ID: <Y+nJ2fTj$WHZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>I  X In article <buama3$v3f$1@pcls4.std.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) writes:5 > In article <v89gV8rSpVLW@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 > Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:  A >> Consider web servers, where Purveyor was driven off the marketu( >> because the competition was "free".   > L > The competition being free isn't reason enough for a commercial product toG > be driven out.  The free software also has to be "good enough" that atJ > significant number of people decide it meets their requirements.  If allE > the free alternatives are as awful as you're saying, the commericalp& > offerings should be doing just fine. > I >> Now we learn that the newest Apache cannot even handle variable length  >> record text files.  g > G > There's a little ambiguity here.  Did the previous versions of Apache , > support variable length record text files,  * Yes, according to posts in this newsgroup.  I So Apache drove out commercial software with a version that _did_ supportmE standard VMS files, and then dropped support in a subsequent version.-  B If the claims about Free Software making an open market were true,D by now someone would have released a corrected version of the latest- Apache version.  But it has not happened yet.s   ------------------------------    Date: 17 Jan 2004 07:45:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen):& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question3 Message-ID: <rRXBGOGyo0im@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  S In article <buarm8$1rk$1@news3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:n  R > The problem with most of this open source software is that not enough effort is K > done to incorporate them into VMS. Much of this software can only handle sQ > stream-lf files (sometimes even only stream-lf configuration files !), and can  , > only be used with Unix style commandlines. > S > The overall impression is that these utilities are added to VMS with the help of  O > sticky tape and chewing gum so to speak. We do want these utilities (I do at oJ > least), but could we please have a bit more then a very basic Unix port.  
 Yes.  Please.   % That is why we use VMS - consistency..   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:14:37 -0600m6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha questionT Message-ID: <craigberry-09879B.11143717012004@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>  3 In article <Y+nJ2fTj$WHZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>,)/  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:   L > In article <buama3$v3f$1@pcls4.std.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai'  > Chase) writes:  I > > There's a little ambiguity here.  Did the previous versions of Apache . > > support variable length record text files, > , > Yes, according to posts in this newsgroup. > K > So Apache drove out commercial software with a version that _did_ support=G > standard VMS files, and then dropped support in a subsequent version.-  H The history is that OVMS Engineering ported Apache 1.x, but did not try F to feed their changes back into the Apache project until much later.  G By then, the Apache project was well along into the development of 2.0  H and the VMS changes were not applicable to the current sources and were G not accepted.  So the VMS folks had to take their code and shoehorn it  G into a greatly modified architecture at the same time that the Itanium IE port was in full swing.  I don't know what exactly happened with the aD file type handling, but it wouldn't be surprising if resources were G pinched very thin and they had to make some tough decisions about what aD features to leave out.  But I do agree that without handling native C file types at least as well as the previous version the port isn't   really finished yet.  D > If the claims about Free Software making an open market were true,F > by now someone would have released a corrected version of the latest/ > Apache version.  But it has not happened yet.i  H For this to happen in this case, OVMS Engineering would have to release D their Apache source code, which they haven't done yet.  Better yet, F they would be continuously feeding their changes back into the Apache C project so that customers would be able to scrutinize, comment on, aF augment, or replace anything they found deficient.  The problem isn't E that Apache is open source, the problem is that OVMS Engineering has >0 been treating open source as a one-way street.    F Open source doesn't stand still and it takes a significant commitment G of resources to keep a port current.  They did this with Mozilla for a  F while and it worked very well in terms of providing customers with an G up-to-date browser.  Now that they are sitting out a version or two of tC Mozilla, I fear they will get into the same position they did with i Apache 2.0.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 06:51:40 -0800p# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r Subject: OT Spam9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEJKCKAA.tom@kednos.com>.  D FYI,  Since adding spamhaus.org to my RBL's I have seen a noticeable reduction in Spam. ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004y   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:27:34 +0000 (UTC)s0 From: "Insomnee_a" <robert.heyes@btinternet.com> Subject: Pages in a print file.a2 Message-ID: <bubgom$p0m$1@hercules.btinternet.com>  K Has anyone got a method for working out the number of pages in a print file 7 or how to count the number of form feeds within a file?a   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:22:02 +0000 (UTC):? From: Graham Burley <burley.not-this@encompasserve-or-this.org>2# Subject: Re: Pages in a print file.r9 Message-ID: <40095236.17B7A8C2@encompasserve-or-this.org>n   Insomnee_a wrote:s > M > Has anyone got a method for working out the number of pages in a print filen   Before or after you print it?A  9 > or how to count the number of form feeds within a file?b  & $ sea a.txt "''f$fao("!^")'"/log/noout   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:40:23 -0500y3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>s# Subject: Re: Pages in a print file.s0 Message-ID: <IKidnajBi7_p-JTdRVn-sA@comcast.com>  
 How about:@ $ SEARCH /STATISTICS MUMBLE.TXT "<FF>"  ! Use Ctrl-L to get <FF>D I had to use EDT to create the above in a .COM file but it executes 
 correctly.  G I don't, however, believe that this will solve your problem.  It will, dI indeed, count form feeds but it will not tell you how many pages will be bE printed!  Thirtyfive years ago, you could count the number of lines, sE divide by 66 and have an answer that was at least close to correct.   I With modern laser printers, the height of each line matters, as do lines  H that wrap, embeded artwork, etc, etc.  If you're printing PostScript to C a PostScript printer, you can send 10,000 lines of text to print a kG single page, or a few dozen lines of text can print thousands of pages S> (PostScript is a programming language that supports looping)..   Insomnee_a wrote:r  L >Has anyone got a method for working out the number of pages in a print file8 >or how to count the number of form feeds within a file? >3 >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:28:24 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>f< Subject: RE: Personal Workstation 500a/au hardware questions9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEEGCCKAA.tom@kednos.com>s     -----Original Message-----2   From: sms@antinode.org [mailto:sms@antinode.org](   Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 5:28 PM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com :   Subject: Personal Workstation 500a/au hardware questions      J      I recently got a moderate bargain on a PWS 500a (although now, with aH   Qlogic SCSI card (like, but not really a, KZPBA-CX), it claims to be a&   500au), and now I need some insight.   <      Graphics.  This machine was running Windows NT, with anI   impressive-looking Digital/Intergraph PBXGI (PBPSPBXGI) graphics card.  G   I gather that this card is useless with VMS, although a fairly recent D   VMS SPD no longer mentions _any_ Alpha hardware this old.  A briefH   experiment with a PBXGA (ZXLp) suggested that the SRM console firmwareG   did not cope well with that one, but after a firmware update, an ELSAaJ   Gloria Synergy (ViVo, not a genuine PBXGK) seems to work nicely.  Sadly,J   my best (old) display wants sync on green, hence my desire to retain theJ   PBXGA card.  I have not yet tried the PBXGA with VMS, but if anyone has,H   I'd be interested.  (I may need to break down and get a newer display,I   but it'll break my heart to lose the last trace of HP/Apollo in general    use here.)  B I think it is just a cabling problem.  You should be able to use aC cable with mini-D at one end and 5 BNC connectors at the other, buthF you only need to use the RGB.  These cables typically cost $15 (Fry's)     I      IDE.  The next problem is the IDE CD-ROM.  This system has the InteltG   SIO chip, not the Cypress, so I'm resigned to using a SCSI CD-ROM forcG   critical purposes, but I'd like to use an IDE CD-RW drive.  The one I D   have in there now appears (as "dqa0.0.0.4.0") in the console "showC   device" list, and it works as a boot device for a firmware CD-ROM ?   (though VMS V7.3-1 gets all huffy about it as a boot device).e   H      I've sucked down what may be the latest DQDRIVER ("X-49"), compiledJ   it (DQDRIVER.COM, "Compaq C V6.5-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1"), and thenG   ran LOAD_DQ_INTEL_SIO.COM.  The result is less than I had dared hope:b   0   ALP2$DQA0:              Offline              0   I   I assume that someone has this working and can steer me appropriately. v!   The console "show config" says:.   	   PCI Bus    [...]e        Bus 00  Slot 04: PCI IDEeB                                     pqa0.0.0.4.0          PCI EIDEJ                                     dqa0.0.0.4.0            52X24X52 CD-RW   [...]c   K      So far, the software is VMS V7.3-1, straight off the Hobbyist CD-ROM. 1D   Interestingly, the DECwindows automatic AUTOGEN did not succeed inH   boosting the GBLPAGES (or GBLsomething), after a couple of tries, so I   had to do it manually.   H      On the bright side, even with less memory than I'd like (256MB), it1   seems perkier than my AlpSta 200 4/233, so far.v   J   ------------------------------------------------------------------------   6      Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185      382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgt      Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547       ----(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A   Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/20040    ---3& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004t   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:43:53 -0600 (CST)s From: sms@antinode.org< Subject: Re: Personal Workstation 500a/au hardware questions) Message-ID: <04011709435315@antinode.org>a  # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e   > > [...] Sadly,N > >   my best (old) display wants sync on green, hence my desire to retain the > >   PBXGA card.  [...]  D > I think it is just a cabling problem.  You should be able to use aE > cable with mini-D at one end and 5 BNC connectors at the other, buttH > you only need to use the RGB.  These cables typically cost $15 (Fry's)  F    It's not just a cabling problem, but it _is_ more than just sync on> green.  The old display is also a fixed-frequency (or at leastH very-limited-frequency) type, and so it can't cope with rates other thanH 1280x1024@60 (or 1152x900@66, as I recall), which leaves out the default< VGA rates used by the more modern cards with the more modernF (multi-rate) displays.  If I lacked a suitable cable, I'd have a toughE time using the display with my AlpSta 200 4/233, whose PBXGA card hasc the same connector.n  F    The (nice, old-fashioned) PBXGA card has DIP switches which specifyF the desired sweep rates, a feature not found on cards intended for useG exclusively with more modern (multi-rate) displays.  (I hate progress. a Change is bad.):  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgv    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:09:42 -0800i# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e) Subject: RE: Rally VAX to Alpha Migrationg9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEECOCKAA.tom@kednos.com>r     -----Original Message-----.   From: Main, Kerry [mailto:kerry.main@hp.com]*   Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 9:12 AM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt+   Subject: RE: Rally VAX to Alpha Migration,      @   > > - While it was not Rally specific, I completed a major VAX   > Cobol / Rdbt>   > > / CI mission critical, high visibility cluster to 3 node   > Alpha ES45 /;   > > SAN / Rdb cluster earlier this year (went live in midM   > April). Rdb wasoH   > > latest version available. This project was extremely successful in@   > > that the Cust went fom 6 large VAX 7610's that were always   > peaked out7   > > in prime time to an environment whereby their new    > environment serversn7   > > (were running about 20% utilization at peak time.u   >i@   > Yeow.  If I were that customer, I might now be feeling a bitA   > like I bought /too much/ replacement hardware.  80% is a hellu   > of a lot of head room.   >b   > > From a pure costF   > > perspective, they now have a huge amount of datacenter space and@   > > cooling/power available for future expansion. In addition,   > while theyI   > > are still in the evaluation phase, this has allowed the Customer toe@   > > look at all sorts of new functionality that they could not   > add beforeH   > > because of loading and version issues e.g. Java based development,C   > > wrapping existing Cobol logic and serving up via Web Services G   > > technologies, Apache web serving, Adv Server (reduce file servingn@   > > virus issues while consolidating Intel servers at the same   > time) etc.   >R+   > Well, there is always that bright side.    >e   > -brian..   > --J   > --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----B   >       IBM 1130 Club Motto:  "Computer People Are Happy People"   >x  F   Yep, but try convincing a Customer that has been living with so muchH   performance pain for so long on "big" VAX's that they don't need a midG   range ES45 cluster, but rather an entry level DS25 cluster. They weretD   pleasantly surprised and in their view, with all of the effort andJ   internal visibility they went through, this was a great problem to have.     :-)A  H   Btw - lots of folks don't realize that there is huge savings to be hadI   with some 3rd party SW that still license big VAX's as enterprise class I   systems and DS25/ES45 as "departmental" hence, much reduced maint costs J   etc. So, even though you get 5-10 times performance, you pay a whole lot/   less in SW license costs with some vendors ..e   According toL http://licensing.hp.com/swl/view.slm;jsessionid=aaaHfcGEsl5wR8bclAu8?page=al phat, these are characterized as workgroup systems  	   Regardsy     Kerry Main   Senior Consultantl   HP Services Canada   Voice: 613-592-4660-   Fax: 613-591-4477    Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom,-   (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)n     ---u(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A   Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004    ---d& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:44:09 -0500o' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>=) Subject: RE: Rally VAX to Alpha MigrationDR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB237DFD@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   >>> According to >>>3J http://licensing.hp.com/swl/view.slm;jsessionid=3DaaaHfcGEsl5wR8bclAu8?pa= gD e=3Dal >>> phaD0 >>> these are characterized as workgroup systems  @ Oops, you are right, I relied on my short term memory on that ..  - But, of course, that makes it even cheaper ..    :-)    Regards3  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantD HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660D Fax: 613-591-44773 Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom=. (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:45:32 GMTl= From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)  Subject: Re: The Inquirer 5 Message-ID: <40092b85.609656@news.cable.ntlworld.com>m  . On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:23:54 +0100, Paul Sture  <nospam@sture.homeip.net> wrote:  8 >peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote: >> ': >> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:15:09 +0100, "Winfried Bergmann" >> <dummy@empuron.com> wrote:  >> m >> >J >> >"peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" <nospam> schrieb im? >> >Newsbeitrag news:4007fa06.294203@news.cable.ntlworld.com...i: >> >> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:58:07 -0600, "Craig A. Berry", >> >> <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote: >> >>m= >> >> >In article <4007082f.5708625@news.cable.ntlworld.com>,-F >> >> > peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote: >> >> >G= >> >> >> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:31:54 -0600, "Craig A. Berry"4/ >> >> >> <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote:y >> >> >>@ >> >> >> >In article <4006feaf.3276015@news.cable.ntlworld.com>,I >> >> >> > peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) wrote:a
 >> >> >> >K >> >> >> >>> Accordingly if it changed to GNU/Linux serers and used PHP canm
 >> >anyone. >> >> >> >> tell me why PHP isn't Open source?
 >> >> >> > >> >> >> >No, because it is:
 >> >> >> >% >> >> >> >http://www.php.net/license/n >> >> >> >> >> >>* >> >> >> Tell me this is HTML Open source? >> >> >pL >> >> >Um, *what's* your question?  You asked why the software package knownJ >> >> >as PHP is not open source.  I pointed out that it is, in fact, openI >> >> >source and gave a reference to the license that dictates the termsrJ >> >> >under which the source code may be used.  That's what "open source"M >> >> >generally means: the source code may be used, redistributed, modified,:L >> >> >or all of the above depending on the terms of the particular license.H >> >> >In your new question, I don't know what "this" refers to (the PHPE >> >> >package, the PHP license, the web page on which the license is K >> >> >described?), and I have no idea what you mean by "HTML Open source".l >> >>  >> >>n >> >>aK >> >> If you go to any web page written in HTML then using your browser youo& >> >> can view the source of the HTML. >> >>hK >> >> Now go to a page written in PHP can you view the source? Can you F**Ke >> >> 2 >> >> Not very open source is this PHP then is it? >> > >> >Is that a joke? If not ...K >> >I could write a compiler for an arbitrary language and put this to opennP >> >source. If you look at the binary for the target machine, compiled with thatJ >> >"open source" tool, could you see the source of your code? I guess youP >> >didn't get the idea behind the term "open source". Check www.opensource.org. >> > >> > >> E! >> Maybe I should make it simpler  >>  I >> write a web page in ASP (Active Server Pages) put it on a Microsoft OSgF >> web server using IIS (Internet Information Server) 4/5 or whatever. >>  G >> Now go to the url with whatever web browser your using. Now use viewh@ >> source. You can see the HTML but can you see the embedded ASPE >> (Vbscript, javascript, perlscript or whatever) No.  This is closed F >> source. Likewise the Microsoft Operating system, web server etc are >> closed source.l >> uG >> Now accordingly why if PHP is "Open Source" why can't I view the WebwG >> page source code with my web browser - not even Mozilla on what evermC >> flavour OS you like. Still doesn't sound very open source to me.  >> hE >> It's tough enough being a programmer at the moment anyway I'd muchi: >> rather get paid for just copying someone elses code ;-) >> r >sI >Umm. Knowing that www.openvms.org is a PHP site, I visited it today, andgG >even using my ancient Netscape V3.03 on VMS, I could see whatever HTMLt  >was generated for a given page. >oF >Are you really asking that if someone writes dynamic pages using DCL,H >COBOL, Ada, Perl or whatever, that you also want to see the source code >of those programs?  >4+ >You are  definitely not going to see that.r >p& >Or did I misunderstand your question? >i >--  >Paul Sturee    F In my limited understanding, and I didn't intend to start a flame war.C My point was if the web page was written in an open source languagetC then I should be able to see all the source code including the HTMLnF and all the PHP if that was what the page was written in. Including ifA it's a database driven site the SQL statement and all the objects- and syntax etc...   ; I understand now that this is not possible with present cgi:D technologies but since Apache produces PHP then I can't see how this is impossible.  F I know a lot of the PHP programmers would be up in arms about this butE I think that this is the whole ethos of "Open source" software people.D  can't pick and choose over where your source code is open or closed' source and still call it "Open source".t  E I guess all of sudden if this happened then a lot of companies paying E for people to write there web sites in this language wouldn't be veryeB happy if clones started appearing everywhere so they would have toC look for an alternative. But there could be still be benefits where B certain sites would benefit from being cloned, charities spring to mind.u         Peter Watkinsont% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.comh remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:51:45 +0800c, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsb- Message-ID: <87oet2ohzy.fsf@prep.synonet.com>.  Q Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:m  # <load of codswallop sent to fishes>p  F > Are you claiming that you have examined all the current source code,C > that you examined the 5.3 or ealier source code and that you know.8 > that OpenVMS now is as secure and VMS was in the 80's.  B VMS post 5.5 is far more secure than earlier versions, 'cuase some? of the holes I found are fixed. I'd give you the reference, butr  the post was canceled by CERT :)  ? A search of archive with `image activator' will get you startedk though.   ? BTW, each dot zero version of VMS has grown significantly, evendB excluding DECWindows stuff and DECnet IV or V. In the bad old daysB you could see this from the size of the fiche bundle growing every time!a   -- >< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:43:32 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>n  Subject: RE: VAXstation question9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEGDCKAA.tom@kednos.com>s     -----Original Message-----D   From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org])   Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 5:29 AMs   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com."   Subject: Re: VAXstation question      ?   In article <dd8c4466.0401121433.ac3de9f@posting.google.com>, m!   cellctl@lycos.com (Ben) writes:oF   >>    I don't know about 32/V, but that model will run Ultirx (DEC's?   >>    BSD UNIX), and probably one of the free BSD (NetBSD or a   FreeBSD) UNIX.   > J   > I know of Ultrix... been looking for it, but it's tough to find.  I'veI   > never seen a copy go on eBay.  Anyone know where I might find a copy?h    > (or be willing to sell one?)  ; I have TK50 tapes for Mips architecture, 4.3 and 4.4, IIRC.s   J     Before you do that, track down why I think the VLC will run Ultrix but3     another poster claimed it won't:  find the SPD.e      ---l(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A   Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004a    ---M& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:25:47 -08001# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>m( Subject: RE: Vaxstation some question...9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIGEDNCKAA.tom@kednos.com>      -----Original Message-----3   From: Paul Sture [mailto:nospam@sture.homeip.net]e(   Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 9:18 AM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como*   Subject: Re: Vaxstation some question...       Tom Linden wrote:l   >tH   > BTW, a zipped iso image is only about 230MB, wouldn't that be easier%   > and better for everyone involved?n   >r  G   That's only OK if you have the means to burn a VMS bootable disk fromg   it.i   Why do you think you need a CD?e        >   -----Original Message----->   >   From: Keith Parris [mailto:keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com],   >   Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:58 AM   >   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn.   >   Subject: Re: Vaxstation some question...   >r   >l2   >   "DaviS*" <davis@spamsux.it> wrote in message3   >   news:<hZYKb.54382$VW.2385148@news3.tin.it>...i*   >   > - Can i install OpenVMS from net??J   >   >   I haven't external Cdrom, but i can "get" this unit from another   >   > workstation.   >cL   >   I'm not aware of any way to install OpenVMS from the Internet, but youE   >   can buy a CD with binary media for VMS and many popular layered-@   >   products for US$30 through the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program atK   >   http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/, which is where you'll also go to get0"   >   your free Hobbyist licenses.   > K   >   The OpenVMS webpage at HP is at http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/ and thedI   >   OpenVMS FAQ is at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/openvms_faq.htmlv   >>	   >   ---r,   >   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.@   >   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).E   >   Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004d   >e   > ---i*   > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.>   > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).C   > Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004l     --     --   Paul Sture     ---U(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A   Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004.   --->& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004w   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:02:34 +0100n+ From: "Jacek Krywult" <pwsk@poczta.onet.pl>e Subject: vms and floppyv0 Message-ID: <buaq9j$rsd$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>  2 I have a floppy disk written on VAX/VMS  ver . 5.48 How can I read files on  this disk on Windows or Linux ?   thanks,h   Jacek    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:01:51 +0100h2 From: Wilm Boerhout <w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl> Subject: Re: vms and floppyl* Message-ID: <bub1md$eno$1@reader08.wxs.nl>  I download the Files-11 browser plugin for Windows on the download section >%   of Emulator International's websitef  % http://www.emulatorsinternational.come   Jacek Krywult wrote:4 > I have a floppy disk written on VAX/VMS  ver . 5.4: > How can I read files on  this disk on Windows or Linux ?     --  
 Wilm Boerhout    wilmOLD@PAINTboerhout.nl(    (remove OLD PAINT from reply address)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:12:40 -0500n3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>o Subject: Re: vms and floppyt* Message-ID: <40095EF8.9080802@comcast.net>  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------0107050905060105070609049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   G You probably can't read it on Windows or Linux.  There may be freeware i> that will read a Files-11 ODS-2 disk but I don't know of any.   H What you can do is ask someone with a VMS system (VAX or Alpha) to read I it for you and copy it to a medium and format that you can read.  If the eG floppy disk is 3-1/2 inch, just about anybody who reads this newsgroup eD could do it for you.  If it's a 5-1/4 inch disk, there are very few 5 people who still have the hardware needed to read it.=  F There is at least one business that specializes in problems like this:6 Muller Media Conversions <http://www.mullermedia.com/> 32 Broadway  New York, NY 10004   U.S. Toll Free (800) OLD-2-NEW http://www.mullermedia.com/t  E Chris Muller and his people can read just about any media and format r that you can think of.   Jacek Krywult wrote:  3 >I have a floppy disk written on VAX/VMS  ver . 5.4g9 >How can I read files on  this disk on Windows or Linux ?  >t >thanks, >t >Jacek >t >  >  >  >f >    >t  & --------------010705090506010507060904) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-asciib Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bity  ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">  <html> <head>I   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">    <title></title>e </head>c' <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> K You probably can't read it on Windows or Linux.&nbsp; There may be freeware-H that will read a Files-11 ODS-2 disk but I don't know of any.&nbsp; <br> <br>G What you can do is ask someone with a VMS system (VAX or Alpha) to readOI it for you and copy it to a medium and format that you can read.&nbsp; If @ the floppy disk is 3-1/2 inch, just about anybody who reads thisI newsgroup could do it for you.&nbsp; If it's a 5-1/4 inch disk, there are-B very few people who still have the hardware needed to read it.<br> <br>J There is at least one business that specializes in problems like this:<br>F <a href="http://www.mullermedia.com/">Muller Media Conversions</a><br> 32 Broadway<br>I New York, NY 10004<br> <br>" U.S. Toll Free (800) OLD-2-NEW<br>g <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mullermedia.com/">http://www.mullermedia.com/</a><br>u <br>D Chris Muller and his people can read just about any media and format that you can think of.<br> <br> Jacek Krywult wrote:<br>E <blockquote type="cite" cite="midbuaq9j$rsd$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl">kA   <pre wrap="">I have a floppy disk written on VAX/VMS  ver . 5.4x8 How can I read files on  this disk on Windows or Linux ?   thanks,t   Jacekc             </pre>
 </blockquote>l </body>s </html>   ( --------------010705090506010507060904--   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:50:41 -0500s. From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart-nospam@gce.com> Subject: Re: vms and floppyt3 Message-ID: <40096df1$0$6082$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>n  : If you don't know of the "ods2" package you have looked at: neither the sigtapes nor the freeware CDs. It is in there.   Richard B. Gilbert wrote:tI > You probably can't read it on Windows or Linux.  There may be freeware  @ > that will read a Files-11 ODS-2 disk but I don't know of any.  > J > What you can do is ask someone with a VMS system (VAX or Alpha) to read K > it for you and copy it to a medium and format that you can read.  If the  I > floppy disk is 3-1/2 inch, just about anybody who reads this newsgroup aF > could do it for you.  If it's a 5-1/4 inch disk, there are very few 7 > people who still have the hardware needed to read it.  > H > There is at least one business that specializes in problems like this:8 > Muller Media Conversions <http://www.mullermedia.com/>
 > 32 Broadwayg > New York, NY 10004 >   > U.S. Toll Free (800) OLD-2-NEW > http://www.mullermedia.com/7 > G > Chris Muller and his people can read just about any media and format j > that you can think of. >  > Jacek Krywult wrote: > 4 >>I have a floppy disk written on VAX/VMS  ver . 5.4: >>How can I read files on  this disk on Windows or Linux ? >>	 >>thanks,a >> >>Jacek8 >> >> >> >> >> >>   >>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:39:58 +0800e, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>7 Subject: Re: VOLUME SHADOW over FDDI using Alpha and CIo- Message-ID: <87fzeeofrl.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  * brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) writes:  C > It looks like the years have taken its toll on the intent of thisoF > configuration.  I would guess that the original intent was to VOLUMEF > SHADOW over the FDDI.  Now there is very little of this intent left.  A > I was wondering if it would be worth my while to go back to theoD > VOLUME SHADOW over the FDDI - or CI couple these servers together.  F You can get the CI cables to all systems from on SC? If so, you should6 be able to do it with out even taking down the system.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.033 ************************