0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 22 Jan 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 42      Contents: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... Re: asspache web server  asspache web server  Re: asspache web server % Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ? % Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ? % Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ? % Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ? % Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ? D Re: How to limit access to production data from non-production code?D Re: How to limit access to production data from non-production code?B Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap Re: JF Mezei Text Generator $ Re: Legal to give away old condists?$ Re: Legal to give away old condists? Looking for VAX/VMS V4.7, PC print server devices compatible with VMS?0 Re: PC print server devices compatible with VMS?0 Re: PC print server devices compatible with VMS? Re: remove DECnet OSI ?  Re: remove DECnet OSI ?  Re: remove DECnet OSI ?  Still alive and kicking!3 SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade @ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: Users welcome HP's commitment to long-term future of OpenVMS Re: VAXUS: Call for Chapters Re: VAXUS: Call for Chapters+ Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium ' VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium + Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium + Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium + Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium # Re: Where is XML generator for VMS? # Re: Where is XML generator for VMS? # Re: Where is XML generator for VMS?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:31:19 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... 2 Message-ID: <HMudnUFI3Nc6YJPdRVn-gw@metrocast.net>  3 "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 2 news:7d8r001q29la57o70u5j5tj190bit7d8pv@4ax.com...J > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:28:35 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: > > A > >"Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message : > >news:cf15391e.0401150652.672d26a3@posting.google.com... > >  > >... > > E > >> Intel has told us they plan to drive Itanium prices down to Xeon G > >> levels, and move the market from 32 bits to 64 bits using Itanium.  > > L > >Hmmm.  Intel also told us that Itanic would debut in 1997-8.  And HP said itG > >would offer 2x - 3x the performance of its RISC contemporaries.  And  later J > >that while Merced was really only a development platform (though it hadG > >originally been what that 2x - 3x claim had applied to), sales would C > >*really* start to ramp up within 6 months of McKinley's release.  > > H > >In other words, betting on Intel's (and HP's) Itanic statements has a long; > >and distinguished history of being a losing proposition.  > >  > J > Why do people  banter on so long about who said what when that proved to be > wrong?  E Might have something to do with evaluating the credibility of similar E *current* statements when they're used to try to bolster an otherwise H vacuous argument - yuh think?  For example, the statement to which I wasH replying (and which you even quoted in your own response, still right upI there above:  too bad you didn't read it as well and avoid looking like a  fool once again).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:55:05 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... 2 Message-ID: <g_OdnVCjeKCknpLdRVn-ug@metrocast.net>  3 "jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message 2 news:sk8r00hsp4ja99ju99kvk61njtg8sk0gbr@4ax.com...J > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:42:15 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >  > > 6 > >"jlsue" <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message5 > >news:etmd009bshk583paeg2hrp220bitqkm0e5@4ax.com...  > >  > >... > > J > >> You can't count, I guess.  Compaq had Alpha with VMS and Tru64.  They had I > >> MIPS for Tandem, Intel IA32 for Windows.  Linux perhaps ran on Alpha  and I > >> Intel.  But Windows on Alpha would never have completely replace the  needF > >> for Proliant servers, so you're stuck with 2-3 server businesses. > > 3 > >2 server platforms.  Tandem was moving to Alpha.  > + > But it wasn't there yet, so that's three.   L Your usual incompetent response, jl.  To start off with, the phrase you usedI was a *future* projection (still right up there above:  "would never have K completely replace[sic]", if your English is up to parsing it properly), so E the claim that Compaq would have been 'stuck with' more than 2 server  businesses was simply wrong.  J Of course, if you want to play in the present, Tandem isn't on Itanic yet,K either - and won't arrive there until some time after it would have arrived 	 on Alpha.      With HP joining the fray,  > PA-RISC would make it 4.  D Way to change the subject, jl:  the point under discussion concerned *Compaq's* actions, not HP:    QUOTE:  G >> We're in a better position with Itanium now than we were with Alpha. G >> Windows, Linux, HP-UX, and OpenVMS on the same hardware, at the same  >> hardware prices.  > L >No you are in exactly the same position as Alpha. Replace HP-0UX with Tru64L >and the above line applied to Alpha, until Compaq started to pull the plug.  	 ENDQUOTE.   K JF's statement was absolutely correct:  Windows, Linux, Tru64, and VMS were L all on Alpha - until Compaq pulled the plug.  Now, at best they'll all (withJ Tru64 replaced by PH-UX) be on Itanic - *if* Itanic survives, and *if* VMSI survives, and *if* Microsoft actually does port to Itanic more completely = than it ported to Alpha (it certainly hasn't done so so far).    > E > But we're talking about HP, not some theoretical past under Compaq.   K Wrong yet again, jl:  comparison with the past under Compaq was *precisely* L what both you and JF were talking about:  see the context which I reinserted (quoted) above..   ...    > >> Now HP will only have ONE.  > > K > >No, 2:  Itanic has no plans to offer full-performance x86 execution, and 1 > >that won't cease to be relevant any time soon.  > L > Interesting, you sell hypothetical futures for Tandem moving to Alpha, but  > not for Wintel moving to IA64.  < Interesting?  Not really - just competent.  Try it sometime.   >  Nice accounting methodology.   I Has something to do with the public statements of the companies involved. G Compaq clearly was committed to moving Tandem to Alpha, to the point of G having already made changes to EV7 to allow that move to occur.  Intel, I OTOH, has certainly made no public commitment at all to moving all server K activity to Itanic - for obvious reasons (unlike Compaq, they're not stupid K enough to kill the current Xeon golden-egg-laying goose in favor of what so 3 far has turned out to be something of a lame duck).   H You prattled on some more, but nothing worth responding to.  Perhaps the: above wasn't either, but I felt like playing whack-a-mole.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:48:05 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  Subject: Re: asspache web server6 Message-ID: <400F2BD5.131CC69C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Spud Demon wrote:  >  > Is this a typo at HP?  > I > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_patches.html  > E > I went there looking for a patch that would make CSWS 2.0 work with & > non-Stream_LF files, and I got this: >  > hp OpenVMS systems' > secure web server (based on asspache)   9 Dunno, but there was that NT V8.0 crack many years ago...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:54:12 GMT 0 From: spud_demon@e.thundermaker.net (Spud Demon) Subject: asspache web server1 Message-ID: <oqDPb.883$sE5.54490@news.uswest.net>    Is this a typo at HP?   G http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_patches.html   C I went there looking for a patch that would make CSWS 2.0 work with $ non-Stream_LF files, and I got this:   hp OpenVMS systems% secure web server (based on asspache)   . --Spud Demon		spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:49:56 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  Subject: Re: asspache web server6 Message-ID: <400F2C44.B90F2AFD@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Spud Demon wrote:  >  > Is this a typo at HP?  > I > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_patches.html  > E > I went there looking for a patch that would make CSWS 2.0 work with & > non-Stream_LF files, and I got this: >  > hp OpenVMS systems' > secure web server (based on asspache)    Whoo! Talk about a fat-finger!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:00:34 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>. Subject: Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ?4 Message-ID: <400f0514$0$29079$636a55ce@news.free.fr>   Martin O'Connor wrote:  G > The most painful had to be the boot device on teh VAX 11/750 (TU58?).  > f > I once booted standalone backup (3 tapes IIRC)  and was typing in the backup command which pages thee > backup image off of the tape. My co-worker proceeded to pull the tape out since the standalone boot - > was done. We then had to start over <sigh>.   M That reminds me the first time I setup a Microvax, with its 51 3'5 floppies.  N When I reached floppy #50, the controller said "bad block on device" or such, $ and the whole installation failed...   :-(    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 01:10:42 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>. Subject: Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ?/ Message-ID: <400F2311.CF5BD11@sture.homeip.net>    Martin O'Connor wrote: > _ > "Didier Morandi" <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:400e2086$0$7157$626a54ce@news.free.fr...  > :  > :  > : William Webb wrote:  > : H > : >At the risk of being argumentative, you most certainly can boot VMS+ > : >(VAX) from a tape.  Alpha systems, no.  > : > O > : See http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/PDF/750_INSTALL.pdf  > :  4.1.4 M > : It is the standalone backup image that you can boot from a tape, not VMS.  > :  > : > J > : >I shall not discuss 9-tracks in this thread- some things are just too- > : >painful to relate once you've done them.  > : > E > : As David said, it was much faster and reliable to boot from a TU.  > :  > : D. > : G > The most painful had to be the boot device on teh VAX 11/750 (TU58?).  >  > I once booted standalone backup (3 tapes IIRC)  and was typing in the backup > command which pages the backup image off of the tape. My co-worker proceeded > to pull the tape out since the standalone boot- > was done. We then had to start over <sigh>.  >   F Ah, the trick there was to make a deliberate sytnax error in the firstG S/A Backup command line. That was (in every case I tried) sufficient to  bring all the code into memory.   E It also worked a treat on TK50s, especially useful where the tape you E really wanted to restore from was one which didn't have S/A Backup at  the beginning.     --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:26:32 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>. Subject: Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ?6 Message-ID: <400F26C8.6647CF3F@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: > 5 > In article <GXSUThwsziZW@eisner.encompasserve.org>, ? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: M > >In article <400DFC37.370AA386@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J. Dachtera" 1 > ><djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:  > >>I > >> Really? In my (distant past) experience, booting SABKUP from 9-track  > >was0 > >> "lightning fast" as compared to TK50... ;-) > > D > >   You should try it a few times from 8 inch floppies.  Or those > 0 > 8 1/2 inch floppies??? 1/2 inch enlargement...  / Must be all that spam promising enlargements...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2004 18:27:52 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman). Subject: Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0401211827.32519a6e@posting.google.com>   ^ Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:<400f04a8$0$29079$636a55ce@news.free.fr>... > Tom Linden wrote:  >  > 4 > >   8 1/2 inch floppies??? 1/2 inch enlargement...2 > > Yes, you can order the pills off the internet. >  > lol  >  > D.  ? How can you LOL in lower case? Must be a pretty lame laugh! :-)    Alan E. Feldman    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:58:46 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>. Subject: Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ?4 Message-ID: <400f04a8$0$29079$636a55ce@news.free.fr>   Tom Linden wrote:     2 >   8 1/2 inch floppies??? 1/2 inch enlargement...0 > Yes, you can order the pills off the internet.   lol    D.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2004 13:21:37 -08007 From: jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net (Daryl Jones) M Subject: Re: How to limit access to production data from non-production code? = Message-ID: <8a646952.0401211321.1942cd37@posting.google.com>    Dear Mark Diaz:   F Once upon a time, the idea of good security for VMS was started by theD use of UIC grouping of accounts like developer, finance, and payrollE as examples of different UIC groups. To keep tight control on access, F an account had to be approved and created by the owners of each group.D An example would be a finance person wanting access to payroll. ThisF would create a situation where one person would have multiple accounts for access.   ? Then came an edict down from somewhere to say: "one account per F person."  This would force the use of ACLs and identifiers through outE the computer system. Of course this created ACLs to be half a page in C length, which suck up CPU ticks and became a cleanup nightmare when C one or more privilege users left the company or disk failures where A backup restores failed to keep the status quo and allowed general  access.   F My suggestion is to use tight UIC grouping and deny access outside theE group to anyone except by identifier. This can be done on a per image E basis too. Don't go crazy by creating a long lists of identifiers and D then in the ACL indicating which identifier will have access or not.E Pool access directories should exist by themselves just below the MFD E (000000) and access by identifier only. Production directories access E by identifier only. What ever you do don't hand out bypass privilege. A System Managers need it by default. There will be a whole slew of D people think they should have it. This is where a security committee7 should decide who gets what privileges and identifiers.   E This would keep the edict of one account per person, cleanup would be F easy, and if a backup restore wasn't completed correctly, access would be denied by default.   @ Developers never have access to Test or Production environments,< period. System Managers or DBAs copy files and programs fromD production or test to development environment. Source code is copiedC by the Software Configuration personnel or other normally privilege A accounts and built in the Test or Production environment by these ? privilege accounts. The QA or QC personnel perform the testing. % Developers are not a privilege users!   2 This is my two cents. I wish you the best of luck!  	 Regards,   Daryl Jones     g markdiaz@aol.com (Mark Diaz) wrote in message news:<6f62d61c.0401210204.69d0c18b@posting.google.com>... H > We have three directory trees for our application on VMS 6.2, one eachG > for development, user-testing, and production. We  have  logical name A > tables and command procedures that allow changing between these ; > environments. We also have production and test databases.  > H > The developers are allowed to write into the user-testing directories,E > and naturally, the end-users are allowed to set themselves into the ( > user-test environment to try new code. > H > The history here is the developers would put new code in the user-test@ > environment and the users would test it against the productionE > database. This is easy to audit for after the fact, but I'd like to 
 > prevent it.  > ? > The developers could put something like this in the user-test 
 > directories E > which would allow access by an end-user to the production databases & > from other than the production code: > 6 > $ ENVIRONMENT PROD  ! invokes DCL to set environment= > $ RUN DISK3:[CODEQA]MYPROGRAM.EXE ! runs EXE from user-test  > @ > It's like I want to install the production executables with anE > identifier and use the database security (DBMS) or directory ACL to / > only allow access if that identifier is held.  > ) > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.  > 
 > Regards, > Mark Diaz  > markdiaz@aol.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:03:34 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> M Subject: Re: How to limit access to production data from non-production code? = Message-ID: <qWAPb.6008$BP1.71038076@news-text.cableinet.net>   I Larry's giving you sound advice. Have separate development and production + systems. Ruthlessly enforce the separation.   I Have a representative test environment, using copies of real data if need B be - maybe even use the process to test the restore of yesterday's production backup.  I Never mix development, test and production environments. If things can go I wrong - they will, usually when you least expect it or can least tolerate  it.   G I generally have three separate system environments - development, test G (sometimes an exact replica to avoid problems of scale) and production. L Having completely separate environments and systems helps you to think aboutL the software development / test / release process, especially the process of1 delivering a software package to a target system.   H If you make the process of delivery to the production environment fairlyK difficult then it does help to reduce the problems introduced by the 'quick J hack' method. I find that it also helps if you make the process of hangingI the perpetrators of such misdeeds quite unpleasant and relatively public. / Tends to discourage others from following suit.   J It all depends how mission-critical your systems are and how important you job is to you.  K In this case it sounds as if it's not hugely critical, so your approach may C be valid for cost reasons, but you do introduce a lot of effort and K associated costs for setting up the kind of environment you're thinking of.   K Group logical name tables, application version specific logical name tables J and directory structures, rights identifiers, ACLs etc. seem like a way toI start. What about network access and proxy logins? How will you cope with G testing new OS and layered product versions if you don't have genuinely L separate environments? How will you cope with performance tuning the systems9 to meet the changing needs of the application? And so on.   K Seriously - please consider separate systems for separate functions. It's a B lot easier - and not so expensive if you use second-user hardware.  E Also - to borrow an excellent quote from Larry - help for sorting out < complex problems afterwards is usually billed by the hour...   --     Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk L Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:51:46 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap 2 Message-ID: <34OdnUeMX7YPg5LdRVn-iQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:dqOpZgGltSv7@eisner.encompasserve.org... H > In article <buma1s$bdm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK; Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:  >  > >>E > >> Depends which vendor you are looking at.  I see 1322 SpecInt2000 > > >> for an Itanium.  I don't see a Xeon as high.  I do see an@ > >> Extreme Edition P4 (cut down Xeon) at 1464 base /1503 peak. > >> > > 5 > > Still a Xeon as you know and also an IA32 system. ( > > You are clutching at staws as usual. > >  > > > No.  The extreme edition P4 isn't a Xeon.  You'd classify it@ > as one, but that isn't how it is sold or packaged.  So we know  > where you are coming from now.  K A Dell 3.2 GHz Xeon submission last September nearly equalled Itanic's best F SPECint_base score (1274 vs. 1322) and slightly exceeded Itanic's bestK SPECint_peak score (1333 vs. 1322).  And it did so using only 1/6th as much I L3 cache (1 MB vs. 6 MB):  both 2 MB and 4 MB L3 high-frequency Xeons are F supposedly coming out soon, which should surpass any Itanic in integerD performance until Montecito some time in 2005 (by which time anotherI generation of x86 is also scheduled, so don't count on Itanic catching up 
 then either).   L Of course, another problem is that you can't get that top Itanic score usingF anything but an HP zx1 chipset and HP-UX:  from Intel's point of view,I unless it just wants to become an HP supplier Xeon *clearly* out-performs F Itanic platforms from other vendors (and from Intel itself) in integerI performance (SGI has one pretty good score to boast about, but it's using G the next generation Intel compiler which one might expect will help x86 E scores as well).  So from Intel's viewpoint (which, of course, is the 7 applicable one here), your argument falls kind of flat.   H Incidentally, the best P4 Emergency Edition score I found was 1583 base,I 1620 peak - which gives a good idea of what Itanic will soon be competing  with in Xeon performance.    ...   F > >> But more importantly, it outperforms Xeon at database operations.F > >> Quite substantially in many cases.  I'd argue database operationsB > >> (however you measure those) are a better metric for a server. > >> > > 3 > > Since you only have TPC-C to base this claim on " > > lets examine it on that basis. > > ; > > And what do we find,  more hyperbola. A 2 way Xeon does ) > > 54,097 TPC TPM at a cost of $3.77/TPM  > > < > > There arn't any 2 way Itanium results but a 4 way rx56706 > > does 121,065 using the same database at $4.4.9/TPM > > 7 > > Hardly a substantial per CPU advantage but then its 5 > > not a very good benchmark anyway so lets just say : > > that you have no worthwhile data on which to base your > > point so we can strike it. > >  > G > Since there is quite a number of 4-way Xeon results , why not compare % > 4-way Xeons against 4-way Itaniums?   B Because, Rob, you're trying to compare relative *processor* serverK performance to see whether Intel might have some interest in continuing the F Xeon line, not other aspects of server performance that can be changed independently of the processor.   G There's a good reason that no single-processor Itanic TPC-C submissions I exist, I suspect:  they wouldn't be any better than Xeon's.  However, the K significantly higher bandwidth of the Itanic FSB, plus 3x as much L3 cache, G plus the system's support for 3x as much RAM (96 GB vs. 32 GB for 4-way K Xeons), gives Itanic a major edge at the 4-processor node size (at least if L you're using HP's zx1 chipset:  no one else has bothered to submit an ItanicL 4-processor TPC-C result, likely because it wouldn't compare well with HP's,L so once again while this might encourage HP to drop Xeon it's not that great a reason for *Intel* to do so).   I Xeon will soon have higher clock rates, higher FSB bandwidth, and more (4 K MB) L3 cache.  And of course there's no reason it couldn't support more RAM I with new chipsets (64 GB is supported today by the processor, and the new I Prescott design takes that all the way up to 1 TB, same as Opteron).  For K the 4-way and under servers that make up the bulk of the 'commodity' server K market, Xeon will make a lot of sense for many years to come (at least when J compared with Itanic:  Opteron is another matter, and if this causes IntelJ to field a 64-bit x86 extension of its own Itanic will be headed for niche4 status even faster than seems to be the case today).   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2004 12:58:58 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap 3 Message-ID: <dqOpZgGltSv7@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <buma1s$bdm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:   >>  D >> 	Depends which vendor you are looking at.  I see 1322 SpecInt2000= >> 	for an Itanium.  I don't see a Xeon as high.  I do see an ? >> 	Extreme Edition P4 (cut down Xeon) at 1464 base /1503 peak.  >>   > 3 > Still a Xeon as you know and also an IA32 system. & > You are clutching at staws as usual. >   = 	No.  The extreme edition P4 isn't a Xeon.  You'd classify it ? 	as one, but that isn't how it is sold or packaged.  So we know  	where you are coming from now.      >>  B >> 	I think it outperforms it at integer too.  Unless there is oneB >> 	out there that I scrolled past.  They certainly aren't jumpingF >> 	right out at me higher than 1322 with Xeon as a model.  Reference? >>   > 9 > No it doesn't you were clutching at staws remember, you 7 > didn't honestly think that your redefinition of P4 EE - > as a non Xeon processor would help did you.  >   > 	It isn't my redefinition.  It is what Intel is calling it and 	selling it as.    >>  ; >>>So until Itanium does deliver better integer perfromance 4 >>>than Xeon the "can" should be changed to "might". >>>  >>   >>   >> 	Does, as far as I can tell.  >>   > 6 > Again you assume that your first point was valid, it5 > wasn't. Its suprising that bitter experience hasn't 5 > taught you that building your whole case on a point 4 > that falls at the first hurdle isn't a good recipe > for winning an argument. >     > 	Okay.  But I'd submit you can't order a Xeon that outperforms= 	an Itanium.  You'd say otherwise and yet you can't reference < 	a link to a Xeon box that outpeforms an Itanium on integer.    E >> 	But more importantly, it outperforms Xeon at database operations. E >> 	Quite substantially in many cases.  I'd argue database operations A >> 	(however you measure those) are a better metric for a server.  >>   > 1 > Since you only have TPC-C to base this claim on   > lets examine it on that basis. > 9 > And what do we find,  more hyperbola. A 2 way Xeon does ' > 54,097 TPC TPM at a cost of $3.77/TPM  > : > There arn't any 2 way Itanium results but a 4 way rx56704 > does 121,065 using the same database at $4.4.9/TPM > 5 > Hardly a substantial per CPU advantage but then its 3 > not a very good benchmark anyway so lets just say 8 > that you have no worthwhile data on which to base your > point so we can strike it. >   G 	Since there is quite a number of 4-way Xeon results , why not compare  H 	4-way Xeons against 4-way Itaniums?  Your point would lose its value?  G 	Okay, then why not just admit that when introducing 2-way Xeons?  Why  8 	not also point out those 2-ways are quite a bit faster?  = 	For those that follow these little FUD trails by our British 6 	Champion here is a recent 4-way Xeon result from IBM:   	 % Vendor		tpmC		Speed			Submission date + IBM		89616		2.8 GHz Xeons		December 8, 2003   ? 	Other results hover around that same figure, 91000 is another.     E 	There are also SAP results.  Why not discuss those?  There are 4-way A 	Itaniums that do about twice the number of dialog steps as 4-way 3 	Xeons?  Got a 2-way you would like to point us to?    				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2004 04:03:30 -00002 From: Mezei Message Generator <mezeiis@atroll.com>$ Subject: Re: JF Mezei Text Generator7 Message-ID: <26IRSA0D38007.9190972222@anonymous.poster>   6 Dean's Meltdown <crazydean@toastedcampaign.com> wrote:   > ' >http://www.buttafly.com/bush/index.php   F It's actually easier than that.  You can generate your own quick Do ItK Yourself At Home JF Mezei Usenet Message Generator by feeding the following J words and phrases into any simple text randomizer and the output will look/ like a genuine 100% bona fide JF Mezei message:   	 nop [sic]  Bush regime  USA police state oil revenus [sic]  Cheney Rumsfeld	 Wolfowitz  axis of evil
 cars are evil  what is really at stake here what you must understand
 no WMDs found  UN War Crime Trinunal US evil empire fabricating evidence UK loyal lapdog  Americans obese 
 fat sweaty$ masturbate/masturbation/masturbating" healthy men do it five times a day" Cubans have higher life expectancy Saddam Hussein US invasion of Iraq % American idiots will believe anything  US brainwash it's people US invaders  What americans aren't told$ Nonstop New York to Tokyo via Dallas Shirley   G With this Mezei Message Generator anyone can enjoy endless hours of fun ; trolling usenet like JF Mezei.  Great for the whole family!    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:41:41 -0000 * From: "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net>- Subject: Re: Legal to give away old condists? 9 Message-ID: <bumh5k$jfnuo$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de>   8 "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message7 news:bec993c8.0401191218.28902461@posting.google.com... H > I've got a metric buttload of VMS Condists.  In 99% of the cases I was never G > the licensee, but being a packrat I've picked these up from employers ; > and customers who were just tossing them into a dumpster.  > H > It's been a couple of years now, and I'm still sitting on them withoutK > finding them a good home.  There's hundreds and hundreds of DEC/Compaq/HP D > folders and thousands and thousands of CD's.  In many cases I have multipleI > copies of the same condist.  I need the space back, and have to get rid 
 > of them. > G > Is it legal for me to give/ship these away to VMS Hobbyists under the F > DECUS/Encompass/Whatever-it-is-now hobbyist license?  The originals,E > that is, not copies.  Is there a statement by HP's legal department 1 > explicitly OK'ing this or is it just "assumed"?  >   H Ok, I am just making assumptions here and no doubt there are lawyers who4 will disagree, but **the CD's are not the license**.I Correctly or otherwise I believe that you can do whatever you please with G the CD's, but you cannot transfer the license except under certain very  closely defined conditions.   J I could do with at least the VMS operating system CD for all versions backL to V6.1 Alpha and V5.5-2 VAX. I do NOT need licenses for these versions. TheI relevant documentation CD's would be handy as well, but not as important. > I am willing to pay postage and peanuts, not a lot more... :-)J I wish I could get listings CD's as cheaply, as it is I am still saving up	 for them!    --   John Travell* Independent VMS and Alpha Support analyst. john- at - jomatech - dot - com  +44-(0)23-92552229 http://www.jomatech.com/       --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A Version: 6.0.562 / Virus Database: 354 - Release Date: 16/01/2004    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:10:23 -0700 6 From: "Phillip D. Williams" <dwilliams296@comcast.net>- Subject: Re: Legal to give away old condists? 0 Message-ID: <0aednUrZC55HdpPdRVn-iQ@comcast.com>  G If someone can sell the condist on ebay and not get in trouble then why @ can't you give them away??? I never seen the condist pulled from? ebay due to legal problems with HP.  If you do a search on ebay H you can always find someone selling some type of software for the VAX or Alpha..  phillip  . 5 "John Travell" <john@travell.uk.net> wrote in message 3 news:bumh5k$jfnuo$1@ID-120847.news.uni-berlin.de... : > "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message9 > news:bec993c8.0401191218.28902461@posting.google.com... J > > I've got a metric buttload of VMS Condists.  In 99% of the cases I was > never I > > the licensee, but being a packrat I've picked these up from employers'= > > and customers who were just tossing them into a dumpster.e > >pJ > > It's been a couple of years now, and I'm still sitting on them without? > > finding them a good home.  There's hundreds and hundreds of 
 DEC/Compaq/HPbF > > folders and thousands and thousands of CD's.  In many cases I have
 > multipleK > > copies of the same condist.  I need the space back, and have to get ridu > > of them. > >-I > > Is it legal for me to give/ship these away to VMS Hobbyists under the H > > DECUS/Encompass/Whatever-it-is-now hobbyist license?  The originals,G > > that is, not copies.  Is there a statement by HP's legal departmente3 > > explicitly OK'ing this or is it just "assumed"?M > >7 >CJ > Ok, I am just making assumptions here and no doubt there are lawyers who6 > will disagree, but **the CD's are not the license**.K > Correctly or otherwise I believe that you can do whatever you please withCI > the CD's, but you cannot transfer the license except under certain veryV > closely defined conditions.r >pL > I could do with at least the VMS operating system CD for all versions backJ > to V6.1 Alpha and V5.5-2 VAX. I do NOT need licenses for these versions. TheoK > relevant documentation CD's would be handy as well, but not as important.m@ > I am willing to pay postage and peanuts, not a lot more... :-)L > I wish I could get listings CD's as cheaply, as it is I am still saving up > for them!  >e > --   > John Travell, > Independent VMS and Alpha Support analyst.! > john- at - jomatech - dot - comV > +44-(0)23-92552229 > http://www.jomatech.com/ >- >- >- > ----( > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).C > Version: 6.0.562 / Virus Database: 354 - Release Date: 16/01/2004@ >r >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:42:47 -08001- From: dundas@caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III)i! Subject: Looking for VAX/VMS V4.7 < Message-ID: <dundas-2101041242470001@dundas-mac.caltech.edu>  J For hobbiest purposes only I am looking for a copy of V4.7.  If I rememberB correctly V4.7 was an upgrade from V4.5 (to V4.6); that is, it was> distributed only as an update, not as a complete installation.  E Regardless of my faulty memory, could anyone get me close?  I can use ! either TK50s or tape image files.   C While I'm at it, any copies of VAX C from that era still available?t   Thanks,n   John   -- c John A. Dundas III2 Director, Information Technology Services, Caltech+ Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA  91125-8100l% Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:33:28 -0700l( From: Lorin Ricker <lorin@locktrack.com>5 Subject: PC print server devices compatible with VMS?o8 Message-ID: <0tgt0056oks789osstg3rclj3gth962fcn@4ax.com>  @ I'm fishing for any recommendations, for or against, about printF server devices which work/play well with VMS; that is, I want to buy a? unit (under $100) to plug-in to my home network router (LinkSyseD 10baseT ethernet, TCP/IP) to connect an HP2300d to both my PCs (W2K,C XP) and my VMS box.  I'd probably opt for a 3-port (USB & parallel)c: box over a 1-port, anticipating a bit of future expansion.  D A bit of web-searching brings up products like Hawking Technologies,E Trendware, and IOgear.  But various reviews (e.g., on amazon.com) can E be alarming &/or misleading (and the reviewers may be clueless).  So,.F I'm asking for practical advice and experience here.  I do know how toB set up a VMS print que for a network printer... I'm just wonderingC which box (above or other) has proven itself to work well (or best) 1 with VMS.  Caveats?  Experience?  Advice, anyone?l  , TIA for any constructive feedback.  -- Lorin   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:48:25 GMTaA From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>c9 Subject: Re: PC print server devices compatible with VMS? = Message-ID: <ZPzPb.5943$vk1.70500522@news-text.cableinet.net>a  D There's the 'old' Digital Rapid PrintServer devices which sit on the) parallel port of a printer. They work OK.P  L I mostly use Emulex MIO cards in older HP laser printers. They work OK - and' provide LAT as well as IP connectivity.   I Having said that if you use a modern HP laser printer (postscript) with asL built-in network card then just use DCPS over an IP connection from your VMSH systems and the normal HP drivers over an IP connection for your WindowsI variants. All works just fine - thanks to Paul Anderson's efforts on DCPS  over the years.s   -- t   Hope this helps, Colin.i) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT ukoL Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:39:16 -0500n3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>c9 Subject: Re: PC print server devices compatible with VMS?d0 Message-ID: <qradnSyQL6ZszpLd4p2dnA@comcast.com>  D I'm not familiar with the HP2300d but I have dozens of print queues A talking to HP Jet Direct cards in various Laserjet printers from  I Laserjet 4 on up to the latetst and greatest.  I have a Jet Direct in my hI Laserjet 4000 here at home and it talks to W2K, Solaris 8, and VMS/Alpha.o  H If you need an external server, I believe that HP makes one of those as  well.c   Lorin Ricker wrote:6  A >I'm fishing for any recommendations, for or against, about printaG >server devices which work/play well with VMS; that is, I want to buy aa@ >unit (under $100) to plug-in to my home network router (LinkSysE >10baseT ethernet, TCP/IP) to connect an HP2300d to both my PCs (W2K,iD >XP) and my VMS box.  I'd probably opt for a 3-port (USB & parallel); >box over a 1-port, anticipating a bit of future expansion.  >pE >A bit of web-searching brings up products like Hawking Technologies,FF >Trendware, and IOgear.  But various reviews (e.g., on amazon.com) canF >be alarming &/or misleading (and the reviewers may be clueless).  So,G >I'm asking for practical advice and experience here.  I do know how to C >set up a VMS print que for a network printer... I'm just wonderingoD >which box (above or other) has proven itself to work well (or best)2 >with VMS.  Caveats?  Experience?  Advice, anyone? >n- >TIA for any constructive feedback.  -- Lorino >o >    >a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:57:14 +0100o" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>  Subject: Re: remove DECnet OSI ?4 Message-ID: <400f044c$0$29079$636a55ce@news.free.fr>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:   ../..eM > PS: As I recently wrote, because of the troubles I had with the DHCP clientvL > in TCPIP V5.3, I had to start TCPIP _before_ DECnet(-Plus) to make it workO > (and this was done by entering the TCPIP startup into the SYSMAN CONFIG PhaseiP > because SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM starts after DECnet). I think I should try V5.4 now.   WARNINGt =======   8 THIS DOES NOT WORK WITH DECnet Phase IV!!! (as you said)  M You HAVE to start DECnet Phase IV *before* TCP/IP, as TCP/IP allocates a f** r- driver which then cannot be loaded by DECnet.A  5 My 2 euros before my next Raven Shield tournament :-)-   D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:25:22 GMTt6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)  Subject: Re: remove DECnet OSI ?4 Message-ID: <m%CPb.235786$Tz1.100650@news.chello.at>   In article <hYrPb.5547$de5.67103977@news-text.cableinet.net>, "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> writes:cN >- use Phase IV compatible addressing (i.e.: ethernet MAC address changes fromL >hardware address to AA-00-04-00-xx-yy format - which is why you must always& >start DECnet before other protocols).  G As this is true for DECnet Phase IV, this is not true for DECnet-Plus !4E eg. TCPIP uses the Hardware Mac-Add while DECnet-Plus uses the DECnetc compatible Mac-Add in parallel.D  H btw: LAT could also be started _before_ DECnet Phase IV, because it usesK the DECnet compatible Mac-Add per default (LATCP> HELP CREATE LINK /DECNET)t   -Peter  K PS: As I recently wrote, because of the troubles I had with the DHCP clientgJ in TCPIP V5.3, I had to start TCPIP _before_ DECnet(-Plus) to make it workM (and this was done by entering the TCPIP startup into the SYSMAN CONFIG Phase N because SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM starts after DECnet). I think I should try V5.4 now. -- O Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERc% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:54:43 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>  Subject: Re: remove DECnet OSI ?4 Message-ID: <400f03b7$0$29079$636a55ce@news.free.fr>   Paul Sture wrote:u   > Colin Butcher wrote: > = >>There's some DECnet Phase V stuff available for download atrL >>www.xdelta.co.uk/training - I wrote it a while back, but it might help you >>with some of the background. >> >  > " > Slight correction - that URL is  > ' > http://www.xdelta.co.uk/training.htmlm >   J Colin, I would not write that in French better than you did in English :-)0 Paul, you are our CIA/FBI/MI5/SDECE/DGSE/ etc...   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:58:24 -0800 3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com>b! Subject: Still alive and kicking!g. Message-ID: <400F4A60.3060506@Flying-Disk.com>  5 The Register (www.theregister.co.uk) asked a questione< about the oldest working computer, with a follow-up questionA about the oldest one connected to the net.   Here is their latestM; update:  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/35032.html5  9 I'll give you one guess who owns the VAXstation-II.   :-)h@ And has a low opinion of a certain other operating system.   :-)   Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2004 13:53:32 -0800( From: rrb35146@yahoo.com (Robbie Benton)< Subject: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade= Message-ID: <dba64bc2.0401211353.3bf77dfa@posting.google.com>"  E Recently, I installed (not upgraded) OpenVMS V7.3-2 on one of the VMSrF machines in my cluster.  I noticed that a parameter file created under? V7.3-1 would not be processed as expected by SYSGEN on a V7.3-2o; system.  Below is an example of what I have seen.  The file.A TESTPARMS.PAR is the result of a SYSGEN WRITE command on a V7.3-1.B system and currently is located on a shared shadow set that allowsF both the V7.3-1 and V7.3-2 system to access it for this demonstration.  = *************************************************************o   (V7.3-1 system)   $ ICS2:system > SHOW SYSTEM /NOPROCESS> OpenVMS V7.3-1  on node * 21-JAN-2004 15:38:40.12  Uptime  106 03:10:49 ICS2:system > SHOW DEFAULT DSA2:[SCRATCH] ICS2:system > DIRECTORYe   Directory DSA2:[SCRATCH]   TESTPARMS.PAR;1a   Total of 1 file.@                                                                  ICS2:system > SYSGEN SYSGEN>  USE TESTPARMS.PAR;1 SYSGEN>  SHOW GBL B Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.      Max.     Unit DynamicB --------------           -------    -------    -------   -------   ---- -------A GBLSECTIONS                  3560        250        80      65535t SectionsA GBLPAGES                 21310587      65536     10240         -1w Pagelets  DoA  internal value           1331912       4096       640         -1  Pages     DSA GBLPAGFIL                   98304        512        32         -1: Pages     D  SYSGEN>v  H ************************************************************************   (V7.3-2 system)a  $ ICS1:system > SHOW SYSTEM /NOPROCESSE OpenVMS V7.3-2  on node * 21-JAN-2004 15:24:37.02  Uptime  1 01:54:47c ICS1:system > SHOW DEFAULT DSA2:[SCRATCH] ICS1:system > DIRECTORY.   Directory DSA2:[SCRATCH]   TESTPARMS.PAR;1    Total of 1 file.@                                                                  ICS1:system > SYSGEN SYSGEN>  USE TESTPARMS.PAR;1C %SYSGEN-W-SETMAX, value set to maximum for parameter SHADOW_SITE_ID  SYSGEN>  SHOW GBLnB Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.      Max.     Unit DynamicB --------------           -------    -------    -------   -------   ---- -------A GBLSECTIONS                  3560        250        80      65535i SectionsA GBLPAGES                   579254      65536     10240         -1a Pagelets   DA  internal value             36204       4096       640         -1- Pages      DA GBLPAGFIL                   24576        512        32         -1E Pages      D SYSGEN  H ************************************************************************  A On the V7.3-2 system, there is a warning on a new parameter beingsC defaulted to a value.  That appears to me to be expected, since theoC file did not contain a value for that parameter.  But shouldn't the A other parameters read in without modification?  Or am I trying to ( perform something that is not supported?   TIA for the help.h   Robbie   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:54:41 -05004  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems-6 Message-ID: <1040121205321.33368A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  = On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:.   > jlsue wrote:I > > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:55:56 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy-2 > > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > >  > >  > >>jlsue wrote: > >>M > >>>On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 02:23:45 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>t > >>>wrote:e > >>>D > >>>6 > >>>1M > >>>>When they discovered the flaw in the POP server that would allow one tohS > >>>>overwrite any file on the system because the impage was installed with SYSPRViT > >>>>and could be called interactively with a log file specification, did that make > >>>>it to CERT ? > >>>c > >>>dO > >>>Whose POP server?  Do I run that on my systems?  If not, then now could iti7 > >>>affect me and why would it actually be a VMS CERT?e > >>>a > >>4 > >>In fact its the HP POP server but that is rather > >>irrelevant.  > >  > > H > > But my system (hypothetically) runs Multinet.  So then what do I do? > >  > > > Does it matter, CERT is not about people being selective and? > restricting advisories to things that will hit everyone while @ > editing out advisories that will only impact a subset of their > users.  = What about things that will impact *none* of their users?  Doe5 you accept that no advisory is required in that case?s     --   John Santosh Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:37:56 +0100D" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>I Subject: Re: Users welcome HP's commitment to long-term future of OpenVMSv4 Message-ID: <400f0dd6$0$29082$636a55ce@news.free.fr>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:  C > I fell the lack of an official document to the customers from HP.i  > Like a PAK or contract etc.... >  > Fabio Cardosoh >  > Clicks >  > http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=127592&liArticleTypeID=1&liCategoryID=6&liChannelID=126&liFlavourID=1&sSearch=&nPage=1d  ? Already posted here on January the 20th 13:31 by Simon Clubley.e   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:35:57 +0100e" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>% Subject: Re: VAXUS: Call for Chapterse4 Message-ID: <400f0d62$0$29082$636a55ce@news.free.fr>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:   > Didier Morandi wrote:d >  >> Good morning all, >>H >> We have received a few requests to open VAXUS chapters in Europe. No > >> news from other sides of the Pond (either ponds, actually). >  > K > Perhaps because the LUGS that are left here in the US are either already  G > doing well on their own, like Dallas/FW, or are dead or dying a slow  K > death like here in Phoenix.  People are tired, Didier, they are tired of oI > investing time into LUGS just to have the carpet pulled out or to have 2/ > them turned into a Intel/Windows sales pitch.  > K > In my estimation, you will see very little to no interest here in the US ,K > for that reason alone, but also because of the fact that for us to drive pG > from state to state, you could have traveled from country to country eK > there in Europe; Proximity does matter and no one wants to be the single n: > LUG member in their region, nothing is gained by that...H > The other aspect you must answer is why people should reassemble into F > another LUG just because you ask?  What value will you bring to the F > table, funding, viability with HP and VMS, discounting, EOL product J > re-releasd under GPL?  What value to the members?  Encompass has yet to J > figure that one out and is still riding on the member benefits put into $ > action by prior DECUS work (IMHO).  J Well, Barry, here in Europe, COMPAQ (nearly) succeeded to kill DECUS. For O example, in France, the DECUS Chapter never succeeded to have COMPAQ forward a v& single message from them to the Field.  J Alain's, Yves-Laurent's and my intentions are to recreate a task force to N communicate on behalf of the last DEC users (I mean DEC users, not CPQ ones). P The value will be to gather voices and build a pressure force to have HP answer N Field Questions, mainly on the VAX HW maintenance. And we nearly have no more N VMS support here. We used to have two VMS ambassadors in France. One left (he O actually was never very useful imho), and the other one is waiting for another wH position if I understood well. No ads in newspapers, no nothing. No VMS P Ttechnical Update Seminar since ages. Always UK or Holland or Germany. The last P one I attended was in Switzerland on 18th of May 2001. There is something to do N because we have about 1800 DEC users around here (and I do not know (yet) how N much in other European Countries). And these users DO NOT WANT to (or CANNOT) @ leave their equipments. So we will try to find answers for them.  L This is our added value. (ps: another value will be to federate independant G trainers to be able to provide training in Europe to people who need a mP DECnet-OSI or a Fortran-77 course, as Global Knowledge gave up with DEC related P training over here, and HP did not put DEC Ed Services back yet, if they do one  day...)o  G > With todays electronic collaboration via the net and telephone, most  K > technical issues can be discussed and worked out, the only thing missing mI > is the socials after the meeting when DEC, well Compaq, Ha!  HP bought  C > the beer, but what, they haven't done that in more than a decade!a  K Correct. We will mainly focus on human relationship, because it was, it IS eM important. I will announce our 1st meeting in Paris in June in a few days. I dH tell you that we will have *much* more participants than for all former Q CUO/Interex shows alltogether... I guess the "VAX Users, should you go Itanium?" sC   session will fill up the Palais des Congrs without difficulties.c  @ > ps. VMSUS would probably have been more accurate than VAXUS...  M Well, no. We worked on our image a fairly long time. What occurs is that VMS  O users who moved to Alpha have left today or are waiting for HP to take them to uN Itanium. A recent survey that I conducted in France by telephone  showed that L 90% of the 1998 installed base have left in 2002 (I posted my results a few Q months ago in here). Another survey from another Customers base dated 2000, told oO me that 5% are still around here. And among the 5% that I did get in touch via lL phone, 100% are running VAX/VMS, and 100% are doing real time management or O process control. So hence VAXUS. VMS lives on Alpha, lives on Itanium, and all hO these users have or will have no problems, despite the silly advice of some in   here :-)  M When I told these 5% about migration, they said: "Huh? Migration? Why? Where CP to?". Remember that VAX/VMS is so good that people have purchased tons of spare O equipments to continue their production without problems "for the moment" (you -) read my newsletters, you know the story).4  O I just learned that a famous Energy Producer Enterprise somewhere in Europe is aQ still controlling its equipments with VAX/VMS 5.5 / Fortran-77 programs. I asked @O how they consider the future. Someone answered: "we got enough spare boxes for d the next 15 years...".  @ You guess that I will send them collaterals on the FutureVAX :-) www.futurevax.comN   D. -- a2 VAXUS - Your new helpful friend in the DEC Family!2 EHQ: 19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France/       Phone: +336 7983 6418 Fax: +335 6154 1928u$                 http://www.vaxus.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:42:09 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>% Subject: Re: VAXUS: Call for Chapters.6 Message-ID: <400F2A71.3D6AB754@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  , I suppose I should respond privately, but...   Didier Morandi wrote:  >  > Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > 
 > > [snip]L > > In my estimation, you will see very little to no interest here in the USL > > for that reason alone, but also because of the fact that for us to driveH > > from state to state, you could have traveled from country to countryL > > there in Europe; Proximity does matter and no one wants to be the single< > > LUG member in their region, nothing is gained by that...I > > The other aspect you must answer is why people should reassemble into G > > another LUG just because you ask?  What value will you bring to the G > > table, funding, viability with HP and VMS, discounting, EOL product K > > re-releasd under GPL?  What value to the members?  Encompass has yet to'K > > figure that one out and is still riding on the member benefits put into*& > > action by prior DECUS work (IMHO). > K > Well, Barry, here in Europe, COMPAQ (nearly) succeeded to kill DECUS. ForoP > example, in France, the DECUS Chapter never succeeded to have COMPAQ forward a( > single message from them to the Field. > K > Alain's, Yves-Laurent's and my intentions are to recreate a task force torO > communicate on behalf of the last DEC users (I mean DEC users, not CPQ ones).tQ > The value will be to gather voices and build a pressure force to have HP answercO > Field Questions, mainly on the VAX HW maintenance. And we nearly have no moreoO > VMS support here. We used to have two VMS ambassadors in France. One left (he P > actually was never very useful imho), and the other one is waiting for anotherB > position if I understood well. No ads in newspapers, no nothing.  / AH! So you ARE familiar with the US's plight...t   > No VMSQ > Ttechnical Update Seminar since ages. Always UK or Holland or Germany. The lastTQ > one I attended was in Switzerland on 18th of May 2001. There is something to do O > because we have about 1800 DEC users around here (and I do not know (yet) howdO > much in other European Countries). And these users DO NOT WANT to (or CANNOT)nB > leave their equipments. So we will try to find answers for them.  G Well, I agree that this is a noble aspiration. Perhaps, however, VAX isq* too narrow a focus, at least for US folks.  M > This is our added value. (ps: another value will be to federate independant H > trainers to be able to provide training in Europe to people who need aQ > DECnet-OSI or a Fortran-77 course, as Global Knowledge gave up with DEC relatedpQ > training over here, and HP did not put DEC Ed Services back yet, if they do oner	 > day...)n  H Yeah, and I'm sure Parsec hasn't the wherewithal to address the needs of the EU market.  H > > With todays electronic collaboration via the net and telephone, mostL > > technical issues can be discussed and worked out, the only thing missingJ > > is the socials after the meeting when DEC, well Compaq, Ha!  HP boughtE > > the beer, but what, they haven't done that in more than a decade!s > L > Correct. We will mainly focus on human relationship, because it was, it ISN > important. I will announce our 1st meeting in Paris in June in a few days. II > tell you that we will have *much* more participants than for all former R > CUO/Interex shows alltogether... I guess the "VAX Users, should you go Itanium?"E >   session will fill up the Palais des Congrs without difficulties.i  H If any of your backers (I'm dreaming) have it within their means, inviteG the OpenVMS brass and pay their expenses. If they see the enthusiasm of B the market first-hand, perhaps it will bring them a step closer to becoming true believers.   ...and maybe not...a  B > > ps. VMSUS would probably have been more accurate than VAXUS... > N > Well, no. We worked on our image a fairly long time. What occurs is that VMSP > users who moved to Alpha have left today or are waiting for HP to take them toO > Itanium. A recent survey that I conducted in France by telephone  showed thatmM > 90% of the 1998 installed base have left in 2002 (I posted my results a fewa > months ago in here).  F How formal and scientific is your data? If I can get the OpenVMS brass; to take the meeting, would you be prepared to make a formaln
 presentation?n  = > Another survey from another Customers base dated 2000, toldeP > me that 5% are still around here. And among the 5% that I did get in touch viaM > phone, 100% are running VAX/VMS, and 100% are doing real time management orXP > process control. So hence VAXUS. VMS lives on Alpha, lives on Itanium, and allP > these users have or will have no problems, despite the silly advice of some in
 > here :-) > N > When I told these 5% about migration, they said: "Huh? Migration? Why? WhereQ > to?". Remember that VAX/VMS is so good that people have purchased tons of spareiP > equipments to continue their production without problems "for the moment" (you+ > read my newsletters, you know the story).  > P > I just learned that a famous Energy Producer Enterprise somewhere in Europe isR > still controlling its equipments with VAX/VMS 5.5 / Fortran-77 programs. I askedP > how they consider the future. Someone answered: "we got enough spare boxes for > the next 15 years...". > B > You guess that I will send them collaterals on the FutureVAX :-) > www.futurevax.com   E As long as you can address their Qbus, BIbus and XMIbus needs, go for  it!    -- > David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:44:07 GMTh# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>g4 Subject: Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To ItaniumK Message-ID: <b9EPb.38370$lGr.36200@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    paul@wren.cc.kux.edu wrote:  >eL http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=74&ncid=74&e=12&u=/cmp/20040 121/tc_cmp/17500090     K No matter which number you believe, whether 400,000 or 411,000 VMS licenseseK or system, if I were carly(tm) and HP I'd be embarrased that the number wast so low.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:30:57 -0600  From: paul@wren.cc.kux.edu0 Subject: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium8 Message-ID: <vrrt00hf1n9st9g9s7ujt7sna5o3ra7eh1@4ax.com>  _ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=74&ncid=74&e=12&u=/cmp/20040121/tc_cmp/17500090    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:52:47 GMTt# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To ItaniumJ Message-ID: <3pDPb.37462$lGr.9195@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   paul@wren.cc.kux.edu wrote:e >rL http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=74&ncid=74&e=12&u=/cmp/20040 121/tc_cmp/17500090     K "While Shannon said VMS's 400,000-plus licenses are *dwindling* every year,a ...."n    F Oh Terry...now you've done it...you've broken the spell of the 411,000? number Compaq and HP have been trotting out for some years now.y  D All the more reason to be advertising and marketing OpenVMS to *new*
 customers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:36:47 -0500u* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>4 Subject: Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium( Message-ID: <400F1B0B.E09F4D0@istop.com>   John Smith wrote:-M > No matter which number you believe, whether 400,000 or 411,000 VMS licenses-M > or system, if I were carly(tm) and HP I'd be embarrased that the number wasg	 > so low.     K Does anyone really believe that there are still over 400,000 sites that are3L actively using VMS ? Are there 400k sites (or licenses) where development isM continuing ? (versus an old app still chugging along without any changes done  in the last decade) ?c  N Personally, I think that the 400k number represents the number of PAKs issued.  N No matter what the real number is, I think it is good that the VMS group bragsJ about 400k licenses/sites/whatever. It shows that VMS is more than a small niche player (which Tandem is).iI And inflating the real number of active customers is good when you try toaI diminish the damage done to VMS in the last decade. It makes it easier toD0 convince software vendors to consider VMS again.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:57:39 -0800r* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>4 Subject: Re: VMS's Stability Prompts Move To Itanium2 Message-ID: <772dnTnd5ZGZvZLdRVn-iQ@mpowercom.net>  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in messageS" news:400F1B0B.E09F4D0@istop.com...I > Does anyone really believe that there are still over 400,000 sites thatg areeK > actively using VMS ? Are there 400k sites (or licenses) where development  isJ > continuing ? (versus an old app still chugging along without any changes done > in the last decade) ?  >hC I have a folder full of old VMS PAKs, many from machines long since L scrapped, like 11/730s.  The real measure is how many of those supposed 400KI sites have some kind of maintenance contract for VMS.  Somehow I doubt HP2G would disclose that number.  Or another measure, ratio of VMS 7.0 mediaoE copies shipped vs. 7.1 versions, vs. 7.2 versions.  If someone hasn't J upgraded in the last five years chances are they never will in the future.  K Still, that mystery number and the revenue has to be high enough to justifysK keeping the VMS team together and porting to Itanium, so I'd infer there isnI some kind of commitment from enough large (in terms of support contracts).I VMS users to justify the work.  Were I pressed to make a guess, I'd wager I it's about 25% of the marketing hype numbers, but that 25% represents theiK top of the VMS customer pyramid, with the losses primarily from small sites-( who never upgraded that DS10 or MV 3600.    Jack Peacockp   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:35:39 -0500h* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>, Subject: Re: Where is XML generator for VMS?) Message-ID: <400EE296.E2FF76E2@istop.com>e   Lawrence Bleau wrote:*B > What I need is a tool that can be used to generate a file in XMLE > format.  I've done a search and have found plenty of parsers, but Ic1 > need to create an XML document, not parse one. l  N You may find that it will be a LOT simpler and faster to just generate the XMLJ from your fortran program versus calling some complex package to setup theK environment, read the DTD, and then call all sorts of routines to add itemsg etc etc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:41:47 GMTsA From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>n, Subject: Re: Where is XML generator for VMS?= Message-ID: <LJzPb.5937$9d1.70399276@news-text.cableinet.net>t  K If I understand this correctly you want to create a set of XML documents tocH present your data by inserting your data at specific points in a purposeJ specific XML template. That means that the process of constructing the XMLG output needs to understand the layout of the XML input template and thea structure of input data sets.   L If you want to generate the output XML dynamically (i.e.: as a user requestsI a web page the data is formatted up there and then into XML which is thentJ sent to their web browser) then on VMS you have Java, PHP and PERL, all ofJ which can be integrated in with the CSWS (web server based on Apache). SeeK the OpenSource tools section of the OpenVMS web site for all the web server.J stuff. I believe that you can also set up calls to DCL command files to do" stuff for you in a dynamic manner.  F If your data are 'static' and the way you present them doesn't need toH change then you could simply create a set of XML files once you have theH data, then make those files available as web pages. You can do that withI pretty much any programming or text processing language - TECO, TPU, DCL, 0 Python, Fortran, C or whatever takes your fancy.  J The key thing is that it's your data arriving in a specific structure thenH re-structured to fit into your own XML templates, so the final layout isJ your responsibility. A parser isn't really going to help with the creationH of XML, unless you effectively create your own 'language' or metadata toH describe how you're going to lay out your data within your XML template.  G If appropriate then I'd settle for off-line production of the final XMLpJ files from the raw data and some XML template files, probably using DCL orH Python, maybe using a compiled language if there was a lot of data to be0 processed. I'd prototype it in DCL first though.   -- j   Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT ukdL Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:36:42 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>, Subject: Re: Where is XML generator for VMS?T Message-ID: <craigberry-C7B947.16364221012004@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>  0 In article <bumfm0$eg7$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,,  bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) wrote:  F > Hello.  I'm running OpenVMS AXP V7.3-2.  We have a need to create anG > XML document containing ascii scientific data for distribution to our G > colleagues.  A description of the XML elements to be used has alreadyn+ > been developed, though it may be refined.- > B > What I need is a tool that can be used to generate a file in XML > format.     C The libxml2 package from Gnome includes a toolkit called XMLWriter -E which sounds like it will do what you want.  There's an example in C b here:4  ( http://xmlsoft.org/examples/testWriter.c  C Of course if your DTD is extremely simple and not likely to change r= much, you could just hard-code the tags in your FORTRAN code.f  C There are numerous Perl modules to assist with what you are doing, c< including XML::Writer, XML::Generator, or XML::Mini.  Go to * http://search.cpan.org and search for XML.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.042 ************************