0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 23 Jan 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 45      Contents: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... Re: asspache web server  Re: asspache web server  Re: asspache web server  Re: CLUSTER INTERCONNECT values % Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ? D Re: How to limit access to production data from non-production code?, Re: How to measure performance impact on I/O, Re: How to measure performance impact on I/OH Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...H Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...B Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap Re: Kerberos login on VMS  Re: Kerberos login on VMS & Known problems with V7.3 security MUP?* Re: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP?* Re: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP?* Re: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP? Re: Looking for VAX/VMS V4.7 Re: Looking for VAX/VMS V4.7( Monitoring idle /cpu time at night time.$ Re: No more mascot on VMS home page?7 Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration 7 Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration 7 Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration 7 Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration 7 Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration  Re: ODS5 and UNZIP Re: OpenVMS wins another one!  OT: LitePC   slices Windows 0 Re: PC print server devices compatible with VMS? Reading disk from BIOS Re: Reading disk from BIOS Re: Reading disk from BIOS RE: Reading disk from BIOS Re: Reading disk from BIOS Re: Reading disk from BIOS7 Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade 7 Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade 7 Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade 7 Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade @ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems@ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems$ Re: VMS authentication to Windows AD Re: VMS Games problem  Re: VMS Games problem - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver - Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:00:41 +0000 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> ' Subject: Re: 500.000 AMD64's shipped... 0 Message-ID: <buqusq$3ts$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Greg Cagle wrote: M > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy said the following on 1/22/2004 10:03 AM:  >  >> jlsue wrote:  >> >>> G >>> So let's see, we can NEVER believe what some people/vendors tell us @ >>> anymore, so let's just pack up and all go home.  Is that it? >>>  >>
 >> You forget  >>= >> You work for an organisation which is a multiple offendor.  >>> >> On the three strikes and you are out principle you would be >> out.  >  > ? > And Sun, of course, ALWAYS delivers on their commitments. 8^)  >   : There is a huge difference between being late to deliver a= product (every IT vendor is guilty of this) to not delivering = the product at all because you have decided to axe it without  consulting your customer base.  ; Sun is the first category along with Intel, IBM, SGI etc HP  is in the second category.  6 Fab piece of spin Greg, very Rob Young esk keep it up.   Regards  Andrew Harrison  > - Greg   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:39:29 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk  Subject: Re: asspache web server) Message-ID: <bur4m1$9m0$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   h In article <d7791aa1.0401221648.5af4ca22@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:P >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<bup3k8$j3n$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>...Y >> In article <401007DE.E356AE1B@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:  >> >warren sander wrote: >> >>  > % >purveyor supports vms file types ...   L Rather an irrelevent comment. As far as I am aware all the webservers on VMS8 except CSWS version 2.0  support all the vms file types.  9 Supporting just stream_lf files is simply not acceptable.   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:10:54 GMT ) From: "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com>   Subject: Re: asspache web server3 Message-ID: <iIbQb.12900$v86.2471@news.cpqcorp.net>   E Apache is alive and well in OpenVMS. In fact, it was one of the first I applications ported to the IA64 platform. Go try it yourself with OpenVMS  8.1.  
 Rick Barry OpenVMS System Software Group  Hewlett-Packard Company 
 Nashua, NH  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message # news:401007DE.E356AE1B@istop.com...  > warren sander wrote: > > < > > it's fixed. fumble fingers removing 'tm' and saving file >  > L > one wonders if "asspache" wouldn't be a common nickname internally and itsA > inclusion on a public web page just a freudian slip :-) :-) :-)  > G > Is Apache considered a "problem child" within the VMS group ? Does it  cause L > problems ?  The fact that the group in charge of the port to VMS no longer has F > the resources to include support for native VMS text files makes one
 wonder....   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:28:38 GMT ) From: "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com>   Subject: Re: asspache web server3 Message-ID: <WYbQb.12902$_66.9495@news.cpqcorp.net>    Why only stream-lf  support?  H The quickest way to get the first Apache 2.0 version out to users was toI make minimal changes. Remember, 2.0 was ported from scratch. This was not J like going from Apache 1.3.20 to 1.3.26. It was a completely new codebase.G We could have spent all lot more time getting Apache 2.0 up to par with G Apache 1.3 in terms of VMS functionality, but we chose to defer that in L order to get it out sooner because we didn't want to fall too far behind theL ASF releases. This also gives user a chance to take a look at it and try out% one of the new features of 2.0: IPv6.   K Apache 2.0 will eventually be on par with Apache 1.3. That includes suEXEC, J mod_dav, mod_perl (almost ready to ship), etc. Thanks to feedback from theH folks in comp.os.vms, we are re-evaluating the stream-lf restriction andG will take a look at adding some native RMS support in the next version.   G By the way, Apache 1.3 will be around for a significant period of time. E There is a huge infrastructure built up around 1.3 in terms of Apache J modules that just aren't yet available for Apache 2.0. So, if you're happy with 1.3, stay with it for now.    Why no thread support?  D Two reasons: Time and the fact that not every Apache module and toolJ supports a threaded model yet. At the time we ported Apache 2.0, PHP (withK mod_php) was still not ready-for-prime time under the threaded model. We'll I get to it eventually, but chose the pre-fork model for the first release.   
 Rick Barry OpenVMS System Software Group  Hewlett-Packard Company 
 Nashua, NH  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message # news:bup3k8$j3n$1@news.mdx.ac.uk... 4 > In article <401007DE.E356AE1B@istop.com>, JF Mezei# <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:  > >warren sander wrote:  > >>= > >> it's fixed. fumble fingers removing 'tm' and saving file  > >  > > I > >one wonders if "asspache" wouldn't be a common nickname internally and  its B > >inclusion on a public web page just a freudian slip :-) :-) :-) > > H > >Is Apache considered a "problem child" within the VMS group ? Does it cause F > >problems ?  The fact that the group in charge of the port to VMS no
 longer hasG > >the resources to include support for native VMS text files makes one 
 wonder.... > @ > I have to wonder why they bothered to release it in this form.K > Not only doesn't it support anything other than stream-lf format files it  alsoK > isn't a multi-threaded server (one of the principal reasons for moving to F > Apache 2.x rather than using Apache 1.3) and also it doesn't support suEXEC.  > G > I was going to try it out as an alternative to the multi-threaded OSU  serverJ > but there is no point in even looking at it until they produce a version  > fixing the above three points. > J > Just noticed that there also doesn't appear to be a compatible CSWS_PERL kit.I > So that should be four points needing fixing before it is worth looking  at.  >  >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:40:18 +0000 * From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>( Subject: Re: CLUSTER INTERCONNECT values' Message-ID: <bur4no$6e6$1@lore.csc.com>    John Brandon wrote:  > P > Been looking around for the CLUSTER INTERCONNECT values used in MODPARAMS.DAT.  H MODPARAMS is an input for AUTOGEN, and only CI is tested for in AUTOGEN.  B CI specifically means in this context a shared storage and cluster= messaging channel (hence DSSI and CI fall into this category.   C Its purpose as I can see is providing some default values for other H cluster related parameters, which are usually overridden anyway by other settings in MODPARAMS.  E I presume its full use hasn't been realized, as you say there's an MC D value, and NI, but AUTOGEN doesn't currently do anything with them.    --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:55:06 GMT & From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>. Subject: Re: How to do Bootable Image Backup ?8 Message-ID: <4ag210ltlc8k09jrvg3r43m0fig60mpqpv@4ax.com>  J On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:21:38 -0800, Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com> wrote:     > ; >	I had a very similar experience with a pair of VAX 6620's A >about 8 years ago.  For some reason lost to history, I needed to A >update the firmware on these systems' CI adapers (CIXCB's?), but ? >I wasn't able to load it from the Infoserver (couldn't get the > >VAXes to boot from it, even though I had instructions, etc.). > ; >	So I determined to make a bootable TK70 with files copied C >from the FW CDrom.  With a little help from Hoff and other posters A >to this group, I succeeded, but I also encountered _exactly_ the C >issue your note, that the file order wasn't "optimal" and that the A >tape would read to the end, then rewind, the read forward to the A >next file it needed.  Painful to watch!  But I only needed to do A >it once per system so I didn't go back and rebuild the tape. :-)   I Try doing a VMS upgrade with one of them... you're booting several times, B and it took 30-60 minutes just to get VMS loaded and into startup.   > B > > They eventually released an article on DSIN (or DSNlink) whichD > > explained the proper order to copy the files to the console tape > > to improve the speed.  > ; >	I do believe I searched DSNlink without finding anything.  >Do you have an article title? >   K No fair!!!  That was 2 (oh, wait, 4) employers, and  probably over 10 years 1 ago.  I don't even have access to DSN anymore....    However, try this:  K    $ SHOW DEVICE MU                  ! To find the name of the TK50 that we 3                                      ! want to use.     $ INIT MUx6: CONSOL%    $ MOUNT/BLOCKSIZE=512 MUx6: CONSOL     $ COPY VMB.EXE MUx6: A    $ COPY CIBCA.BIN MUx6:            ! stop here for CONSOLE TK50 B    $ COPY DIAGBOOT.EXE MUx6:         ! for diagnostic tape only !!B    $ COPY ELSAA.EXE MUx6:            ! for diagnostic tape only !!    $ DISMOUNT MUx6:   B Note:  I pulled this out of a document that may have actually been+ distilled into a DSN article, I don't know.    --- jls 0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 01:24:57 -0800" From: markdiaz@aol.com (Mark Diaz)M Subject: Re: How to limit access to production data from non-production code? = Message-ID: <6f62d61c.0401230124.47970120@posting.google.com>   ( Thank you all for the helpful responses.  < It looks like better UIC grouping of the users/developers inC combination with the protected subsystems will work well enough for  us.   E Data sensitivity isn't the real issue I'm trying to address, just the A integrity of the production environment and breaking the cultural F habit of running non-production code against the production databases.  B Separate systems would certainly make it easy to manage, and avoid9 performance impacts, but that's not going to happen here.   
 Thanks again!   	 Mark Diaz  markdiaz@aol.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:53:53 GMT ( From: "konabear" <maurert@ameritech.net>5 Subject: Re: How to measure performance impact on I/O A Message-ID: <RH9Qb.33294$P%1.26170913@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>   K So you want to compare a single 2 member mirror set (RAID 1)  to a 6 member E mirrored striped set (RAID 0+1)   You're asking us to assume that the J members of the 6 member set are identical disk models as the 2 member set.  E Just as importantly you'll also need to know want if any kind of RAID K controller sits between the system and the disk.  In OpenVMS land mirroring H implies controller based RAID 1 and shadowing implies host based RAID 1.  L Next it will depend on the character of the I/O load going to the RAID sets.H Even is the I/O is a single I/O read request the answer will still be itJ depends.  Let's assume the request isn't bottlenecked by the I/O path fromJ the system to the controller.  If the read is huge and the limiting factorK is the transfer rate of a disk, then perhaps the strip set will win as data I will be pulled from two disks simultaneously.  But in most loads striping C does not improve the performance of a single stream if the I/Os are F synchronous. (next I/O isn't issued until the one before it completes)  G Now through asynchronous I/Os or multiple streams of request at the two I sets, then striping will usually show and advantage, and almost never (if  ever) a disadvantage.   I BTW I'd expect that as the hit rate on controller cache increases for the I load, then the advantage of RAID 0+1 over RAID 1 to be lessoned. Here I'm K assuming that you're using the same amount of space on the 6 member set and  you did on the 2 member set.  J Writing in a write-back cached environment is another animal. My belief isJ that with write-back cache, that the rate of data written would have to beL faster than the controller could write to the 2 member RAID 1 set (yet stillK below the transfer rate of the I/O pipe from host to controller) before the 1 RAID 0+1 set would show any noticeable advantage.    Todd  5 "John Brandon" <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote in message + news:04012217335365@dscis7-0.dalsemi.com... F > I was wondering how I could determine (swag) the performance gain by	 moving an I > application from using a mirror set disk (2 drives) to a striped mirror  set E > disk (6 drives).  The disk drives are the same style and size.  The  application  > is a FORTRAN one at that.  >  > For example: > * > ---------------------------------------- >  > DGA101 is a mirror set:  >  > [D][D] > [MIRR] > DGA101 > ' > APPLICATION-A creates files on DGA101  > Running on DGA101  > CPU time was 60 seconds  > Elpased time was 6060 seconds . > I/O would then be 6000 seconds (aprox guess)% > (yes, I know other factors at play)  > * > ---------------------------------------- > . > If I change the appliation to run on DGA102: > * > ---------------------------------------- > ! > DGA102 is a striped mirror set:  >  > [D][D][D][D][D][D] > [MIRR][MIRR][MIRR] > [     STRIPE     ] > .....DGA102......  > ' > APPLICATION-A creates files on DGA102  > Running on DGA102  > CPU time was 60 seconds  > Elpased time was ? seconds > I/O would then be ? seconds  > * > ---------------------------------------- > K > Could I (attempt) to guess that my elapsed time went from 6000 seconds to  2000C > seconds (6000 / 3) ?  Since I 3x the available disk I/O resource.  > H > My assumption is that the elapsed time (for the most part) is directly related H > to the I/O - after deducting the CPU time.  And if there is no WAIT or SYNCH ' > commands executed in the application.  >  > Am I swagging to much? >  >  > J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  > VMS Systems Administrator , > firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:52:48 GMT 9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> 5 Subject: Re: How to measure performance impact on I/O / Message-ID: <4011430B.C30F86A9@eps.zko.dec.com>    John Brandon wrote:   P > I was wondering how I could determine (swag) the performance gain by moving anM > application from using a mirror set disk (2 drives) to a striped mirror set Q > disk (6 drives).  The disk drives are the same style and size.  The application  > is a FORTRAN one at that.    :   ' > APPLICATION-A creates files on DGA101  > Running on DGA101  > CPU time was 60 seconds  > Elpased time was 6060 seconds   	 Hi there, > You are clearly concerned about IO performance yet you give us< virtually no indication of the IO activity to be supported!?+ How big are those files to be created? (MB) 9 How many IOs (/sec)do you see today. Read -  Write ratio?   Q As konabear already replied, if this is a simple, single stream application doing F mostly synchorneous reads, then no performance change can be expected.P If this was 100% write, without write back caches, then virtually no performance improvement can be expected.  M Now if this was behind a write-back-caching controller and those caches where Q filling up, being bottlenecked by the disk, then there is hope for 3x improvement > (unless you become limited by the controller / adapter first).  N If you are writing mutliple large, preallocated, files concurrently you may beR better of using 3 independend mirrors to restrict head movement withing file space versus between all files.   S Still, over all, it tends to be best to create a single large striped+mirrored disk  to spread the load. N Dedicated disks can possibly be set up to do better some of the time, but that* tends to be more trouble then it is worth.  Q What, IMHO you do NOT want to do is to stripe and mirror a buch of disks and then * partition that back out to virtual drives.L If you do that you garantuee max search times when access alternates between virtual drives/partitions.O If you are going to present smaller virtual drives/partitions then I would lean 8 towards just presenting out the mirror sets - unstriped.@ Because in doign the latter you can still exercise some control.   Hein.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 01:52:55 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... ) Message-ID: <4010C4B1.7DE23BFA@istop.com>    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > 8 > what is the mars spirit running on?  The hubble on vms: > compared to a mars spirit windoze/unix/linux crash would > be terrific advertising ...   K If Hubble runs on VMS, then Mr Dachtera will get an orgasm knowing that VMS H was already (secretely) ported to the 8086 architecture which is what is- aboard Hubble. (386 if i remember correctly).   N Some of the recent mars vehicles ran on PowerPc chips. Not sure if the current" batch has Power or 8086 for cpus.   N In fact I think that the last VMS to go in space was aboard the shuttle for anJ experiment which was supported by a hardened VAX 6000 machine and that was many many years ago.  M Failures on the mars ships can be for many reasons (harsh environment, a gust G of wind overturning the vehicle, martian expedition to the "crash" site I arriving and pulling the lander's antenna to prevent it from transmitting V their pictures, or just some nasty bug/microbe that eats silicone chips for breakfast.  J Intersstingly, one NASA spokespesron said that it was possible that it wasK just a software glitch similar to when Word crashes. (yes, that is what she I said). I wonder who will go and press the <ALT><CTRL><DEL> to restart the 
 lander :-)   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:43:27 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... $ Message-ID: <buqmrf$278$1@online.de>  2 In article <4010C4B1.7DE23BFA@istop.com>, JF Mezei$ <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:   M > If Hubble runs on VMS, then Mr Dachtera will get an orgasm knowing that VMS J > was already (secretely) ported to the 8086 architecture which is what is/ > aboard Hubble. (386 if i remember correctly).   G I doubt that VMS is on the HST.  I also don't think the rumour is true  C that "ISS is full of VAXen".  However, the Space Telescope Science  D Institute is or at least was a big user of VMS on the ground.  Long H after, sadly, DEC completely lost the academic market, STScI still used  VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:00:43 +0000 * From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... ' Message-ID: <bur2df$5km$1@lore.csc.com>    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > 8 > what is the mars spirit running on?  The hubble on vms: > compared to a mars spirit windoze/unix/linux crash would > be terrific advertising ...    HST is a x86 architecture.  : http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/lithos/hstsm/hstsm/hstsm.htm  0 386 co-processor added (first servicing mission)  ( http://hstsci.gsfc.nasa.gov/art/sm3a.pdf   This was replaced with a 486.   D The other thing you must consider is space is a hostile place. ThoseB same Coronal Mass Ejections from the sun which give us nice auroaeC (because of our protective 'atmosphere') could be causing less well D protected things to fail. There's been a number of quite large CME'sD recently. While some protection is provided, when the craft is open,G it's more vulnerable. I'm not in possession of the details, but there's * a trade off between protection and weight.  H Beagle's fate, software? big hole? something else? Mars has a relativelyG bad history for landers. Venus you can understand, landing in sulphuric C acid rain at 200 degrees. Perhaps Mars is not as inert as it seems. : Perhaps we're unlucky. The operating system is irrelevant.   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:04:14 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGQ Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... 0 Message-ID: <00A2C507.92F9A3F7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  V In article <4010C4B1.7DE23BFA@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: {...snip...}L >If Hubble runs on VMS, then Mr Dachtera will get an orgasm knowing that VMSI >was already (secretely) ported to the 8086 architecture which is what is . >aboard Hubble. (386 if i remember correctly). > O >Some of the recent mars vehicles ran on PowerPc chips. Not sure if the current # >batch has Power or 8086 for cpus.    9 There are/were RAD hard versions of the PowerPC and 8086?   J I know when I worked on Mars Observer that GE dropped the RCA1802 in favor, of a MIL-STD chipset which was RAD hardened.   --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.  --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:42:27 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... 3 Message-ID: <BQHToHJMjUc0@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <4010C4B1.7DE23BFA@istop.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes: > Bob Ceculski wrote:  >>  9 >> what is the mars spirit running on?  The hubble on vms ; >> compared to a mars spirit windoze/unix/linux crash would  >> be terrific advertising ... > M > If Hubble runs on VMS, then Mr Dachtera will get an orgasm knowing that VMS J > was already (secretely) ported to the 8086 architecture which is what is/ > aboard Hubble. (386 if i remember correctly).   H    Hubble uses a variety of computers, including some 386.  Most of themH    use commercial realtime/embedded OS.  One of them runs a custom exec.  L > Intersstingly, one NASA spokespesron said that it was possible that it wasM > just a software glitch similar to when Word crashes. (yes, that is what she K > said). I wonder who will go and press the <ALT><CTRL><DEL> to restart the  > lander :-)  E    During development of Hubble's electronic cooler (installed during B    sevicing mission 3B) one of the programmers noted that when theC    software gets into a certain condition he just "pushes the reset F    button".  That's why we have reviews.  Not all programmers are used    to spacecraft.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:38:18 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... 3 Message-ID: <i3kp$zt9xiAQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <d7791aa1.0401221940.71f90e03@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:8 > what is the mars spirit running on?  The hubble on vms: > compared to a mars spirit windoze/unix/linux crash would > be terrific advertising ...   D    No computer on board Hubble runs VMS.  VMS is used on some of the/    computers on the ground that support Hubble.   F    The OS on Spirit is almost certainly a commercial realtime/embedded#    OS such as VxWorks, RTLinux, ...   F    And finding bugs in the application software a few days after firstG    deployment are not unusual in any computing field.  No OS can change     that.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:45:41 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... 3 Message-ID: <XuTTC5htyeXZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <buqmrf$278$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:   I > I doubt that VMS is on the HST.  I also don't think the rumour is true   > that "ISS is full of VAXen".  H    I believe there are no VAXen on board ISS.  But one of the developersH    was bemoaning that the code is cross compiled using a compiler hostedF    on VAXen.  They were looking for a compiler that would handle thier3    Ada 86 (85?) code but be hosted on a faster CPU.   >    They had lots of small VAXen in what sounded like a cluster&    supporting thier compilation needs.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:46:16 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... 3 Message-ID: <0YJs$vIyRbzK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <bur2df$5km$1@lore.csc.com>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> writes: >  > HST is a x86 architecture. > < > http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/lithos/hstsm/hstsm/hstsm.htm > 2 > 386 co-processor added (first servicing mission) > * > http://hstsci.gsfc.nasa.gov/art/sm3a.pdf >  > This was replaced with a 486.   4    Not all computers on board HST were or are Intel.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:48:06 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... 3 Message-ID: <bXrRvxvjOHrT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A2C507.92F9A3F7@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > ; > There are/were RAD hard versions of the PowerPC and 8086?   @    Yes.  Or at least PowerPC, 386, and 486.  These are common inB    spacecraft.  There are also lots of rad hardended CPUs that the(    folks down at BestBuy never heard of.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:50:57 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... J Message-ID: <5F9Qb.110520$7JB1.86376@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:F > In article <buqmrf$278$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de4 > (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > D >> I doubt that VMS is on the HST.  I also don't think the rumour is$ >> true that "ISS is full of VAXen". > ? >    I believe there are no VAXen on board ISS.  But one of the E >    developers was bemoaning that the code is cross compiled using a E >    compiler hosted on VAXen.  They were looking for a compiler that H >    would handle thier Ada 86 (85?) code but be hosted on a faster CPU. > @ >    They had lots of small VAXen in what sounded like a cluster( >    supporting thier compilation needs.     No ADA on IA64/VMS is there?  L Guess that will kill many opportunities to bid VMS into the military market.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:27:52 +0000 * From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]>Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ... ' Message-ID: <burb1c$8cn$1@lore.csc.com>    John Smith wrote:  >  > Bob Koehler wrote:H > > In article <buqmrf$278$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de > A > >    I believe there are no VAXen on board ISS.  But one of the G > >    developers was bemoaning that the code is cross compiled using a G > >    compiler hosted on VAXen.  They were looking for a compiler that J > >    would handle thier Ada 86 (85?) code but be hosted on a faster CPU. > >    > No ADA on IA64/VMS is there? > N > Guess that will kill many opportunities to bid VMS into the military market.  D GNAT Ada there is, which is currently on Alpha, and due for Itanium.  G The Ada 95 standard is not supported by the "matured" product "DEC Ada" D and VAXFLOAT is also not a standard data type for GNAT Ada. There isC however quite a lot of inertia with moving from a platform specific 0 datatype to an "open" standard data type (IEEE).  H The issues that arise is that "changes required" means that this is alsoB a point that the platform could change (non VMS) so it's obviouslyF necessary to ensure that the migration process and the target platform" is made as attractive as possible.   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:06:01 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...eT Message-ID: <craigberry-568554.08060123012004@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>   In article o? <5F9Qb.110520$7JB1.86376@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,m%  "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:p     > No ADA on IA64/VMS is there? > N > Guess that will kill many opportunities to bid VMS into the military market.  & There will be GNAT Ada but not HP Ada.    I http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/alpha_retaintrust/openvms/openvms_px	 lans.htmlu   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 09:21:11 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)hQ Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...o3 Message-ID: <zzjeOxjP9GVQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  q In article <i3kp$zt9xiAQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ej > In article <d7791aa1.0401221940.71f90e03@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:9 >> what is the mars spirit running on?  The hubble on vmsb; >> compared to a mars spirit windoze/unix/linux crash wouldi >> be terrific advertising ... > F >    No computer on board Hubble runs VMS.  VMS is used on some of the1 >    computers on the ground that support Hubble.b > H >    The OS on Spirit is almost certainly a commercial realtime/embedded% >    OS such as VxWorks, RTLinux, ...    From comp.lang.ada:a  c In article <4010478C.83FCCEFF@raytheon.com>, Jerry Petrey <"jdpetrey<NOSPAM>"@raytheon.com> writes:w >  >  > "Robert C. Leif" wrote:  > N >> Anyone know what language was used to program Rover?  I could not find this" >> information on the JPL website. >> Bob Leife > K > They are using C on a RAD6000 processor with the VxWorks as the operatingm	 > system.t > Q > It seems to have stopped transmitting - too bad they didn't stick with Ada likeh  > they used on Cassini and NEAR! >  > JerryV > --S > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------t >  > -- Jerry PetreyVJ > -- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation (GPS/INS), Guidance, &	 > ControlDE > -- Raytheon Missile Systems          - Member Team Ada & Team Forthw; > -- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to reply S > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------i >  >  >  --  N ==============================================================================I The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything-J      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willI      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warningsMH      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival      of the online community."N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:48:49 -0000n4 From: wspencer@ap.org.nospam.please (Warren Spencer)Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...m0 Message-ID: <1012gj1rjf6g45b@news.supernews.com>  I bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in <d7791aa1.0401221940.71f90e03M @posting.google.com>:o  7 >what is the mars spirit running on?  The hubble on vmsr9 >compared to a mars spirit windoze/unix/linux crash wouldt >be terrific advertising ... > 8 >http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040122/D80816O80.html  . The rovers are running VxWorks:   www.nasa.gov   ws   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:37:06 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Q Subject: Re: Hubble fine with VMS ... bet mars spirit crash was windoze/linux ...e) Message-ID: <401169CF.2B4193C1@istop.com>n  F > >> I doubt that VMS is on the HST.  I also don't think the rumour is& > >> true that "ISS is full of VAXen".  J Correct. The station is almost entirely 8086 based. The US segment control7 computers (MDMs) are 386s running proprietary software.o  V The laptops that connect to the control system are IBM thinkpads running 8086-Solaris.L The laptops for other non-critical work ( documentation, email, experiments)B are same laptops but running Windows and require frequent reboots.  M The russian segment computers were partly funded by Europe/ESA and HP was onewI of the big contractors. I know that they have one unix file server on thel3 russian segment, but I do not know what OS it runs.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:09:15 +0000hO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>uK Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapg0 Message-ID: <bur6dr$6eh$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rick Jones wrote:i  @ > But you do not suspect that IBM may not be putting effort into? > lower-end POWER4+ TPC-C because they may not be competitive?   >   % I doubt they feel the need to bother.    (763,898/32)*4=96104  & TPC-C is a marketing mark I doubt that$ IBM would have any trouble marketing% 96104+32 way scalability fudge factor * as a perfectly competitive 4 way marketing mark.a   On the other hand  (1,008,144/64)*4=63009  " More difficult to market as a good marketing mark.g   regardsm Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:30:31 GMTo) From: "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com>d" Subject: Re: Kerberos login on VMS3 Message-ID: <H_bQb.12903$G86.3793@news.cpqcorp.net>i  G If you're talking about the external authentication feature provided byt? PATHWORKS for logging into the system, that's still using NTLM.s  
 Rick Barry OpenVMS System Software Groupe Hewlett-Packard Companya
 Nashua, NH  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in messagea# news:bup1fd$i5v$1@news.mdx.ac.uk...jC > In article <geTPb.12799$I35.11820@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Rick Barry"  <richard.barry@hp.com> writes:B > >OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha-only) includes an ACME agent developer kit
 containing > >evaluation versions of: > >rJ > >- LOGINOUT and SET PASSWORD images that are integrated with the SYS$ACM > >service.sE > >- LDAP ACME module that provides VMS-style authentication using anoJ > >LDAP-compliant directory (instructions are included for using this with > >Enterprise Directory).i > >rK > >The password field used in this version is VMS-specific -- it is not theJK > >standard user entry password field. So, if you're trying to use a commonBJ > >password field for all of your Unix, Windows, VMS systems this will not helpD > >you. This is designed for using a common password across multipleK > >independent OpenVMS systems or clusters.We plan to add the capability ofs= > >using a user-specified password field in a future version.r > > 2 > >Please note this kit is not for production use. > >s/ > >See SYS$HELP:ACME_DEV_README.TXT for details  >VF > Does the latest version of Pathworks support either Kerberos or LDAPD > authentication against Active directory ? Or is that using the old insecure > NTLM authentication ?  >m > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >s >-
 > >Rick Barry2  > >OpenVMS System Software Group > >Hewlett-Packard Company
 > >Nashua, NHw > > 3 > >"Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> wrote in message + > >news:bulcp2$c6b$1@info.service.rug.nl...d > > < > >"Wayne Morrison" <Wayne.Morrison@hp.com> wrote in message# > >news:400DC15D.D41317FB@hp.com...  > >> Fred Zwarts wrote:o > >> >H > >> > We have two OpenVMS clusters, several Linux systems and a Windows
 > >domain,K > >> > each with their own password database. For the users it is difficult  toJ > >> > remember when to use each password. Therefore, we would like to use onekJ > >> > kerberos server and configure all these systems as clients, so that at > >the7 > >> > normal login, the kerberos password can be used.aK > >> > Can this be done with the normal terminal and DECwindows login undern > >OpenVMS? I > >> > Where should I start reading to learn how to configure our OpenVMSi > >clusterse/ > >> > to use kerberos for user authentication? K > >> > We have mixed architecture clusters with OpenVMS 7.3 (VAX) and 7.3-1  > >(Alpha).e > >> > > >> > F.Z.i > >>K > >> You can't quite do all of this today, but you will be able to do so ino theh > >nearh= > >> future.  We are currently hoping to ship a Kerberos ACMEe (Authenticationh > >andE > >> Credential Management) agent with OpenVMS V8.2.  This will allow  exactlyw > >the& > >> scenario that you describe above. > >tL > >And if we use LDAP instead of Kerberos? Is that available already for VAX
 > >and Alpha?r > >k/ > >> On the Linux side, you'll need to use PAM.nL > >> See http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/libs/pam/modules.html for a list of > >LinuxL > >> PAM modules.  Any version of Windows server more recent than Windows NT > >usesEL > >> Keberos for authentication.  It's possible to make Windows Kerberos and > >MITE > >> Kerberos (used by OpenVMS) interoperate, although it tends to bef tricky. L > >> There's a good description on how to do that on the Microsoft web site. > >  > >Could you provide a URL?c > >p > >> > >> Wayne Morrison)# > >> Kerberos & CDSA Project Leadere > >> OpenVMS Engineering > >V > >F.Z.? > >  > >a   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:44:04 +0000 (UTC)g From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk" Subject: Re: Kerberos login on VMS) Message-ID: <burmh3$feh$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>o  _ In article <H_bQb.12903$G86.3793@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Rick Barry" <richard.barry@hp.com> writes:aH >If you're talking about the external authentication feature provided by@ >PATHWORKS for logging into the system, that's still using NTLM. >g   OK.   L So it looks like we currently have no secure single password systems from HPO working with VMS and other OSs. Even Microsoft advise against using NTLM unless # you are forced to by older systems.r  L The LDAP authentication, which will work with other VMS systems but not with= other OSs due to the password field chosen, is it encrypted ?b ie is it using d  LDAP with TLS/SSL i  G either connecting to the standard LDAP 389 port and using the START TLS  commandi  + or using the alternative LDAP SSL 636 port -   ?   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University       >Rick Barryu >OpenVMS System Software Group >Hewlett-Packard Company >Nashua, NHc >c, ><david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message$ >news:bup1fd$i5v$1@news.mdx.ac.uk...D >> In article <geTPb.12799$I35.11820@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Rick Barry" ><richard.barry@hp.com> writes:EC >> >OpenVMS 7.3-2 (Alpha-only) includes an ACME agent developer kitt >containing  >> >evaluation versions of:l >> >K >> >- LOGINOUT and SET PASSWORD images that are integrated with the SYS$ACM  >> >service.F >> >- LDAP ACME module that provides VMS-style authentication using anK >> >LDAP-compliant directory (instructions are included for using this with  >> >Enterprise Directory). >> >L >> >The password field used in this version is VMS-specific -- it is not theL >> >standard user entry password field. So, if you're trying to use a commonK >> >password field for all of your Unix, Windows, VMS systems this will not  >helpjE >> >you. This is designed for using a common password across multiple?L >> >independent OpenVMS systems or clusters.We plan to add the capability of> >> >using a user-specified password field in a future version. >> >3 >> >Please note this kit is not for production use.f >> >0 >> >See SYS$HELP:ACME_DEV_README.TXT for details >>G >> Does the latest version of Pathworks support either Kerberos or LDAPCE >> authentication against Active directory ? Or is that using the old 	 >insecureV >> NTLM authentication ? >>
 >> David Webbu >> VMS and Unix team leadert >> CCSSo >> Middlesex Universityh >> >> >> >Rick Barry! >> >OpenVMS System Software Groupm >> >Hewlett-Packard Company  >> >Nashua, NH >> >4 >> >"Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> wrote in message, >> >news:bulcp2$c6b$1@info.service.rug.nl... >> >= >> >"Wayne Morrison" <Wayne.Morrison@hp.com> wrote in messaged$ >> >news:400DC15D.D41317FB@hp.com... >> >> Fred Zwarts wrote: >> >> >dI >> >> > We have two OpenVMS clusters, several Linux systems and a Windowsr >> >domain, L >> >> > each with their own password database. For the users it is difficult >toeK >> >> > remember when to use each password. Therefore, we would like to used >oneK >> >> > kerberos server and configure all these systems as clients, so thatf >att >> >thes8 >> >> > normal login, the kerberos password can be used.L >> >> > Can this be done with the normal terminal and DECwindows login under >> >OpenVMS?J >> >> > Where should I start reading to learn how to configure our OpenVMS >> >clusters0 >> >> > to use kerberos for user authentication?L >> >> > We have mixed architecture clusters with OpenVMS 7.3 (VAX) and 7.3-1 >> >(Alpha). >> >> >  >> >> > F.Z. >> >>wL >> >> You can't quite do all of this today, but you will be able to do so in >the >> >near> >> >> future.  We are currently hoping to ship a Kerberos ACME >(Authentication >> >andGF >> >> Credential Management) agent with OpenVMS V8.2.  This will allow >exactly >> >the!' >> >> scenario that you describe above.N >> >M >> >And if we use LDAP instead of Kerberos? Is that available already for VAXl >> >and Alpha? >> >0 >> >> On the Linux side, you'll need to use PAM.M >> >> See http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/libs/pam/modules.html for a list ofo	 >> >LinuxeM >> >> PAM modules.  Any version of Windows server more recent than Windows NT- >> >usesM >> >> Keberos for authentication.  It's possible to make Windows Kerberos anda >> >MIT F >> >> Kerberos (used by OpenVMS) interoperate, although it tends to be >tricky.M >> >> There's a good description on how to do that on the Microsoft web site.o >> > >> >Could you provide a URL? >> > >> >>U >> >> Wayne Morrison$ >> >> Kerberos & CDSA Project Leader >> >> OpenVMS Engineeringw >> > >> >F.Z. >> > >> > >a >s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:55:19 -0500 $ From: Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com>/ Subject: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP?oJ Message-ID: <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492B442@lespaul.process.com>  3 Are there known crashes in the recent security MUP?,  2 I installed the three ECO kits (below) on a DS10L 5 running VMS V7.3, and within two days it had crashed - for the first time ever.  3 Unfortunately, the dump file contains no valid dumpm0 and I see nothing in the errorlog or accounting.1 I'll be checking the dump parameters to catch the1 next event, if any.p  3 So, I don't have any evidence the MUP or one of itsr/ prerequisite kits was the cause, other than ther concidental timing.   6 The following kits were installed, in the order below:     VMS73_PCSI-V0100   VMS73_UPDATE-V0300   VMS73_SYS-0700  4 I did install them all without rebooting in between,3 and only booted afterward.  One odd thing happened:e3 while installing the second kit the PRODUCT INSTALLr0 command failed with "entity not found in command3 tables."  The entity was "DELETE", IIRC.  I had to /2 log in anew to continue.  Then it complained about5 an undefined logical, VMI$something, which I stupidlye3 did not write down.  It did complete with a messagey/ saying the kit had been successfully installed,  so I ignored it and went on.   Thanks,t
 Mike Duffy   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:50:44 GMTl/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) 3 Subject: Re: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP?e- Message-ID: <jN43ZWZT+nAY@cuebid.zko.dec.com>u  & Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com> writes:  5 > Are there known crashes in the recent security MUP?l   [...]e  5 > Unfortunately, the dump file contains no valid dumpl2 > and I see nothing in the errorlog or accounting.3 > I'll be checking the dump parameters to catch thet > next event, if any.n  = Without the crash dump, it's hard to say conclusively, but it1M is hard to imagine that the introduction of the security MUP was the culprit.   7 I say that with knowledge of what was fixed in the MUP.r   -- n  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:16:37 -0500  From: norm.raphael@metso.com3 Subject: Re: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP?tQ Message-ID: <OFAA2100CF.3F3F62F5-ON85256E24.00591489-85256E24.0059BA47@metso.com>   ? Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com> wrote on 01/23/2004 09:55:19 AM:o   >o5 > Are there known crashes in the recent security MUP?m > 3 > I installed the three ECO kits (below) on a DS10Lp6 > running VMS V7.3, and within two days it had crashed > for the first time ever. >o5 > Unfortunately, the dump file contains no valid dumpd2 > and I see nothing in the errorlog or accounting.3 > I'll be checking the dump parameters to catch the  > next event, if any.- >-5 > So, I don't have any evidence the MUP or one of its 1 > prerequisite kits was the cause, other than ther > concidental timing.  >u8 > The following kits were installed, in the order below: >w >   VMS73_PCSI-V0100 >   VMS73_UPDATE-V0300 >   VMS73_SYS-0700 >y6 > I did install them all without rebooting in between, > and only booted afterward.  7 I cannot say for certain, but whenever PCSI is patched,-6 it is playing with fire not to do that patch by itself8 and then reboot.  The failure to do that probably caused4 your problem with the second PRODUCT INSTALL.  I can9 only cringe at what might then have failed without propern5 notice as PROD INSTALL is often silently mischievous.s   > One odd thing happened:b5 > while installing the second kit the PRODUCT INSTALL-2 > command failed with "entity not found in command4 > tables."  The entity was "DELETE", IIRC.  I had to4 > log in anew to continue.  Then it complained about7 > an undefined logical, VMI$something, which I stupidly 5 > did not write down.  It did complete with a messaged1 > saying the kit had been successfully installed,  > so I ignored it and went on. >a	 > Thanks,  > Mike Duffy   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:07:10 GMTt3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) 3 Subject: Re: Known problems with V7.3 security MUP? 3 Message-ID: <ipdQb.12915$9h6.1707@news.cpqcorp.net>e  Q In article <OFAA2100CF.3F3F62F5-ON85256E24.00591489-85256E24.0059BA47@metso.com, s norm.raphael@metso.com writes: >d@ >Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com> wrote on 01/23/2004 09:55:19 AM: ..9 >> The following kits were installed, in the order below:o >> >>   VMS73_PCSI-V0100i >>   VMS73_UPDATE-V0300d >>   VMS73_SYS-0700( >>7 >> I did install them all without rebooting in between,  >> and only booted afterward.e > 8 >I cannot say for certain, but whenever PCSI is patched,; >it is playing with fire not to do that patch by itself ...i  : Yes this is a good idea.  It is not completely clear, but = I would read the above to indicate that three PRODUCT INSTALLf@ commands were issued.  Otherwise the order of installation would) have been detemined by the PCSI utlity.  e  = >... and then reboot.  The failure to do that probably caused 2 >your problem with the second PRODUCT INSTALL. ...  ; Patching PCSI should not require a reboot.  If the patches p8 were installed by thre seperate PRODUCT INSTALL commands this should hav worked.m@ Without checking, I suspect that either the UPDATE or SYS patch,, or both of them  may have required a reboot.   -- iJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:14:52 -0800. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)% Subject: Re: Looking for VAX/VMS V4.7 < Message-ID: <f30679fb.0401230714.1610a40@posting.google.com>  q dundas@caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) wrote in message news:<dundas-2101041242470001@dundas-mac.caltech.edu>...tL > For hobbiest purposes only I am looking for a copy of V4.7.  If I rememberD > correctly V4.7 was an upgrade from V4.5 (to V4.6); that is, it was@ > distributed only as an update, not as a complete installation. > G > Regardless of my faulty memory, could anyone get me close?  I can use # > either TK50s or tape image files.  > E > While I'm at it, any copies of VAX C from that era still available?t > 	 > Thanks,a >  > John    = Hmmm ! I suggest a strong effort of the OpenVMS.org communitya= to masterize some "old"  ISO CDs  of old versions of OVMS andp% put them in www.openvms.org/legacy ! i   :-)    Fabioe   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:37:58 -0500i< From: "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca>% Subject: Re: Looking for VAX/VMS V4.7o9 Message-ID: <buril8$l6q4d$1@ID-141708.news.uni-berlin.de>e   Chris Moore wrote:; > "Sherman, set the Way-Back machine for 1986, we need somer	 software"g >a( > "Holy archaic, Mr. Peabody..........." > < > "John A. Dundas III" <dundas@caltech.edu> wrote in message8 > news:dundas-2101041242470001@dundas-mac.caltech.edu...> >> For hobbiest purposes only I am looking for a copy of V4.7. If I > ...s  = John, thanks for getting Chris going on his Way-Back machine, 9 just 5 minutes ago he handed me a set of three 5 1/4 inchd: floppies with VMS V4.4 Stand-Alone-Backup on them. He also7 brought out nine 8 inch floppies for RT-11 V3.  He also ; brought out a lot of RT-11 and old hardware manuals that wen> are offering to The DFWCUG Historical CPU Preservation Society- (http://www.montagar.com/~patj/dec/hcps.htm).h  < He did not find any distribution for V4.7 which is a problem8 since we do occasionally have to work on two MicroVAX II
 running V4.7.    -- s Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.r Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAXt www.weaverconsulting.caI   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 09:53:02 -0800 From: mb301@hotmail.com (MB)1 Subject: Monitoring idle /cpu time at night time.0= Message-ID: <1d08b916.0401230953.67e2569c@posting.google.com>-  , Pls could someone tell me how I might get a ) summary on one page of idle and cpu time.   9 I have been looking at monitor, but that just give you x n, number of graphs for a given period of time.  A Is the free ECP Data Collector and Performance Analyzer any good?t  9 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ecp/index.htmll   thks Me   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:55:58 GMT(( From: "konabear" <maurert@ameritech.net>- Subject: Re: No more mascot on VMS home page? A Message-ID: <OJ9Qb.33296$P%1.26171482@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>T  L Yes and I still prefer the designer statement made by the Orange Wall...NOT! ;^)n   Todd< "Ken Randell" <kenneth.randell@verizon.net> wrote in message. news:dW%Pb.2063$n01.11@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...I > My apologies.  I can't blame mind on fumble fingers, just getting old &7	 > senile.u >cI > Sorry about the 'mascot' mention.  I was thinking of the Ask the Wizard L > page; I see the mascot is still there.  I still prefer the old look of the > pages, however.  >n >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:07:16 +0000h0 From: Chris Sharman <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam>@ Subject: Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration4 Message-ID: <buqo84$j4f$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   Jeff Morgan wrote:  K > If these are called routines, you can create a shareable image library oneM > VAX, VEST that .exe to create an Alpha shareable link library. Then compile K > any available source files on native alpha and link against the shareable' > link library.d > M > That way you get the performance boost of running as much native alpha coderG > as possible and only run translated vax images for the missing calledo > routines.r  H Alternatively, use DISM32 (available as freeware somewhere) to generate  Macro-32 source from an image.C You may even be able to link the offending module on its own (with aG errors/warnings, or just a stub to call it) and dis-assemble just that p module.c  A The resulting code would need some tidying, and wouldn't be easy eF maintenance, but at least it would then be source portable to all VMS 
 platforms.   Chrisr   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:40:08 GMT-A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> @ Subject: Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration= Message-ID: <sfbQb.7655$uf4.84745393@news-text.cableinet.net>A  G On the hope that a called routine isn't going to be too big then I'd be>I tempted to disassemble the object module into VAX instructions (not quitenH Macro32, but close enough), figure out what the routine does, then writeH code to do just that. Then test carefully using a VAX platform to ensureL that the recreated code does the same job as the original code. Then port to Alpha (and Itanium).  
 Good luck!   -- n   Hope this helps, Colin.6) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uksL Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:51:47 -0500p2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>@ Subject: Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration. Message-ID: <40110AD3.17563.AD5DDCB@localhost>  * On 23 Jan 2004 at 1:32, Jeff Morgan wrote:9 > Then start re-writing so you'll be ready for Itanium...k  E No need -- there will be a translator Alpha->Itanium, just like VEST.4  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671i1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147J= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comF   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:14:57 -0700w+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>i@ Subject: Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration' Message-ID: <40115691.8010203@MMaz.com>v   Colin Butcher wrote:  H >On the hope that a called routine isn't going to be too big then I'd beJ >tempted to disassemble the object module into VAX instructions (not quiteI >Macro32, but close enough), figure out what the routine does, then writeoI >code to do just that. Then test carefully using a VAX platform to ensureeM >that the recreated code does the same job as the original code. Then port tos >Alpha (and Itanium).  >  b >tI If the routine is that small, why don't you just reverse engineer it and a code it fresh?   BarryI   --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:33:24 GMToA From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>t@ Subject: Re: Object available. No source. Vax to Alpha Migration= Message-ID: <EVcQb.7735$Rt5.85809439@news-text.cableinet.net>r  I Absolutely. However, I suggest that you use the disassembled code to help L you do the reverse-engineering and figure out what it currently does and howJ it does  it. Remember - they may not actually know what the called routineL really does, or what it is supposed to be doing. It could all easily be lostK in the mists of time and some poor person has got to figure it all out fromt scratch.   -- n   Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk L Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks. 6 "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message! news:40115691.8010203@MMaz.com...n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:45:31 +0100 - From: "Martin Vorlaender" <mv@pdv-systeme.de>c Subject: Re: ODS5 and UNZIP-8 Message-ID: <burc2c$l6trb$1@ID-56200.news.uni-berlin.de>   Craig A. Berry wrote:n >> Gerald Marsh wrote:H >>> After checking that I had the latest Alpha version of UNZIP (V5.5, IH >>> think - apologies for the uppercase commands but old habits etc!), IH >>> tried and tried and tried to recreate the directory structure on the >>> ODS 5 disk to no avail.L > 8 > The problem is filename characters that are illegal onB > ODS-2. I don't know of any way to make current versions of unzip@ > handle these without translation (short of modifying the unzip > sources).s  F I did have a look into the sources, and it shouldn't be too hard to doE (use DVI$_ACPTYPE to determine whether it's ODS-5, add a command linerD switch to force ODS-2 names - all modeled after vmstar; add a bit ofF code to [.vms]vms.c:mapname to change/suppress the character mapping).  @ The only thing I didn't see (it was a really quick look) is what the output device is...m   cu,e   Martin -- .F   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de-F    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:48:38 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> & Subject: Re: OpenVMS wins another one!J Message-ID: <WC9Qb.110511$7JB1.87668@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:t; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=04/01/22/7074154-     This is old news Bob.   I How many equivalent value VMS systems has HP sold to *new* customers thisb0 month, or this week? That's of greater interest.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 06:44:38 -0800. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)$ Subject: OT: LitePC   slices Windows= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0401230644.3ffe6d68@posting.google.com>   = Not related to OpenVMS but maybe for its distributed clients:C  2 Sounds interesting for me this kind of technology:   http://www.litepc.comd  F I am imagining a Virtual Machine Lite PC to run specific applications.F It is a way to shield applications too ! Shield from end-users without experiece ! :-)@   Regardsm   FC   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 04:47:34 -0800. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)9 Subject: Re: PC print server devices compatible with VMS?:= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0401230447.2845b9d1@posting.google.com>H  h Lorin Ricker <lorin@locktrack.com> wrote in message news:<0tgt0056oks789osstg3rclj3gth962fcn@4ax.com>...B > I'm fishing for any recommendations, for or against, about printH > server devices which work/play well with VMS; that is, I want to buy aA > unit (under $100) to plug-in to my home network router (LinkSys F > 10baseT ethernet, TCP/IP) to connect an HP2300d to both my PCs (W2K,E > XP) and my VMS box.  I'd probably opt for a 3-port (USB & parallel).< > box over a 1-port, anticipating a bit of future expansion. > F > A bit of web-searching brings up products like Hawking Technologies,G > Trendware, and IOgear.  But various reviews (e.g., on amazon.com) caniG > be alarming &/or misleading (and the reviewers may be clueless).  So,4H > I'm asking for practical advice and experience here.  I do know how toD > set up a VMS print que for a network printer... I'm just wonderingE > which box (above or other) has proven itself to work well (or best) 3 > with VMS.  Caveats?  Experience?  Advice, anyone?n > . > TIA for any constructive feedback.  -- Lorin  C The good choices are Lantronix and HP (Even the HP dont have a goodlD management integration with OpenVMS nowadays - what about HP drivers for OVMS ? )  * PS: HP Printservers have Web management !     A The bad choice is Intel - it works but dont have good management.s     Regards    FC   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 04:32:26 -0800$ From: mailkrishnas@yahoo.com (Krish) Subject: Reading disk from BIOSi= Message-ID: <98c8c553.0401230432.3fe45411@posting.google.com>r   Hello,  D When you power on a Alpha System, running OpenVMS, how does the BIOSC read the sectors from the disk. Or rather, how does the BIOS accesseC the disk without the disk driver being loaded. Becuase, to load thenB driver we need to read the disk, right ? I remember a funda calledC Int13, but I guess this is higly limited to PC bios, am I right. Ife2 that is the case, what happens in a Alpha system ?  C I appreciate any material or further reading links from this group.    Thanks -Krish   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2004 07:52:41 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a# Subject: Re: Reading disk from BIOS 3 Message-ID: <J3416u955$oS@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  d In article <98c8c553.0401230432.3fe45411@posting.google.com>, mailkrishnas@yahoo.com (Krish) writes:   > Becuase, to load the+ > driver we need to read the disk, right ? n  G    No.  There are basic drivers for all supported disks in the boot ROMm    of the Alpha.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:12:19 +0000t* From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]># Subject: Re: Reading disk from BIOSb' Message-ID: <bura48$86e$1@lore.csc.com>w   Krish wrote:  F > When you power on a Alpha System, running OpenVMS, how does the BIOSE > read the sectors from the disk. Or rather, how does the BIOS accesseE > the disk without the disk driver being loaded. Becuase, to load the D > driver we need to read the disk, right ? I remember a funda calledE > Int13, but I guess this is higly limited to PC bios, am I right. Ifs4 > that is the case, what happens in a Alpha system ?  A Very briefly, because I suspect you may also get a huge amount ofi	 detail...o  F This applies to VAX as well as Alpha. The console BIOS can communicateF with all the devices it may be expected to boot from, and going to LBNH zero, this gives it the location of the initial bootstrap program, againD in LBN format, and the console then starts to load the code from theG location given in the bootblock into memory, then starts to execute it.s  H The "boot block" is an integral part of INDEXF.SYS, if LBN 0 is bad thenH this device can  not be used as a boot device. The program WRITEBOOT.EXEE in SYS$SYSTEm is used to update the value with the APB.EXE or VMB.EXE E LBN as appropriate. The bootblock is 512 bytes, the VAX LBN is at thepH beginning of the bootblock, the Alpha is at the end of the bootblock, so) the pair can co-exist on a single volume.A  F You can see this if you dump the first block of INDEXF.SYS, and if youC DUMP/HEAD the APB or VMB, you'll see the hex value of the (decimal)aH retrieval pointer LBN for the respective file. Note that Alpha value forF the LBN is + 1. For VAX this is the second longword of the INDEXF.SYS.B For Alpha it's the sixth from last longword (remember the DUMP hex display reads right to left).&  C The "trickery" that does this is in the console program itself, the&D thing that allows you to interact, displaying the >>>, using console= variables, etc. so the console is much more than just a BIOS.-  E This is changing with Itanium, it boots much more like a PC does, and=B the VMS boot process is being moved to "just after" the "standard"F platform boot, so in effect (and I expect I'll be corrected if this isE wrong) the VMS console which will be responsible for the remainder offC the VMS booting process, is first loaded from the system disk to be C booted. This avoids the IPF having to "know" anything about how VMSl wants to boot.  E The secondary bootstrap, the VMB, APB, IPB, is what starts to load up=B the remainder of the operating system, which is the point that the@ operating system begins to load the drivers and everything else.  E Your "power on" sequence has missed out the POST, Power On Self Test, H and particularly with an Alpha the point where the console is started is. displayed as a message, and gives you the >>>.  C In my younger years, I used to "toggle in a RIM loader". This was atG sequence of octal numbers which represented a program which effectivelytF told the hardware where the punched paper tape reader was, to load theF contents from the reader into successive memory locations, and then toB start execution. The principles are the same. (RIM - dunno what it stands for, if anything).4   -- 0? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences: nclews at csc dot com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 06:39:31 -08003# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>M# Subject: RE: Reading disk from BIOSt9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECICEEDCLAA.tom@kednos.com>r     -----Original Message-----3   From: Nic Clews [mailto:sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]]M(   Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 6:12 AM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt%   Subject: Re: Reading disk from BIOSr       Krish wrote:  H   > When you power on a Alpha System, running OpenVMS, how does the BIOSG   > read the sectors from the disk. Or rather, how does the BIOS access G   > the disk without the disk driver being loaded. Becuase, to load the F   > driver we need to read the disk, right ? I remember a funda calledG   > Int13, but I guess this is higly limited to PC bios, am I right. If-6   > that is the case, what happens in a Alpha system ?  C   Very briefly, because I suspect you may also get a huge amount ofo   detail...c  H   This applies to VAX as well as Alpha. The console BIOS can communicateH   with all the devices it may be expected to boot from, and going to LBNJ   zero, this gives it the location of the initial bootstrap program, againF   in LBN format, and the console then starts to load the code from theI   location given in the bootblock into memory, then starts to execute it.m  J   The "boot block" is an integral part of INDEXF.SYS, if LBN 0 is bad thenJ   this device can  not be used as a boot device. The program WRITEBOOT.EXEG   in SYS$SYSTEm is used to update the value with the APB.EXE or VMB.EXEkG   LBN as appropriate. The bootblock is 512 bytes, the VAX LBN is at the-J   beginning of the bootblock, the Alpha is at the end of the bootblock, so+   the pair can co-exist on a single volume.r  H I wonder why VMS never had the concept of alternate boot blocks, in case sector zero were corrupted?  H   You can see this if you dump the first block of INDEXF.SYS, and if youE   DUMP/HEAD the APB or VMB, you'll see the hex value of the (decimal) J   retrieval pointer LBN for the respective file. Note that Alpha value forH   the LBN is + 1. For VAX this is the second longword of the INDEXF.SYS.D   For Alpha it's the sixth from last longword (remember the DUMP hex   display reads right to left).l  E   The "trickery" that does this is in the console program itself, the F   thing that allows you to interact, displaying the >>>, using console?   variables, etc. so the console is much more than just a BIOS.p  G   This is changing with Itanium, it boots much more like a PC does, andsD   the VMS boot process is being moved to "just after" the "standard"H   platform boot, so in effect (and I expect I'll be corrected if this isG   wrong) the VMS console which will be responsible for the remainder ofoE   the VMS booting process, is first loaded from the system disk to besE   booted. This avoids the IPF having to "know" anything about how VMSa   wants to boot.  G   The secondary bootstrap, the VMB, APB, IPB, is what starts to load upiD   the remainder of the operating system, which is the point that theB   operating system begins to load the drivers and everything else.  G   Your "power on" sequence has missed out the POST, Power On Self Test,oJ   and particularly with an Alpha the point where the console is started is0   displayed as a message, and gives you the >>>.  E   In my younger years, I used to "toggle in a RIM loader". This was a I   sequence of octal numbers which represented a program which effectivelyoH   told the hardware where the punched paper tape reader was, to load theH   contents from the reader into successive memory locations, and then toD   start execution. The principles are the same. (RIM - dunno what it   stands for, if anything).D     --A   Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer SciencesO   nclews at csc dot comL     ---e(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A   Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004u   --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.560 / Virus Database: 352 - Release Date: 1/8/2004>   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:41:26 GMT 9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>w# Subject: Re: Reading disk from BIOSr4 Message-ID: <qoaQb.12892$kS5.11401@news.cpqcorp.net>  I A mini OS is embedded in flash memory on Alpha commony referred to as the J SRM console.  This console has drivers for the boot devices.  It reads theI first block, which tells it where to find the OS bootstrap, which it thene" loads and transfers control to it.  K The Alpha AXP Architecture Reference Manual explains more about the consolee environment.    1 "Krish" <mailkrishnas@yahoo.com> wrote in messageu7 news:98c8c553.0401230432.3fe45411@posting.google.com...K > Hello, >hF > When you power on a Alpha System, running OpenVMS, how does the BIOSE > read the sectors from the disk. Or rather, how does the BIOS accesslE > the disk without the disk driver being loaded. Becuase, to load therD > driver we need to read the disk, right ? I remember a funda calledE > Int13, but I guess this is higly limited to PC bios, am I right. If 4 > that is the case, what happens in a Alpha system ? >uE > I appreciate any material or further reading links from this group.  >t > Thanks > -Krish   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:12:37 GMTr9 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <my-last-name@stardotzko.dec.com>E# Subject: Re: Reading disk from BIOSa3 Message-ID: <FRaQb.12898$B56.8580@news.cpqcorp.net>a  7 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in messagek! news:bura48$86e$1@lore.csc.com...S > Krish wrote: >hG > This is changing with Itanium, it boots much more like a PC does, and.D > the VMS boot process is being moved to "just after" the "standard"H > platform boot, so in effect (and I expect I'll be corrected if this isG > wrong) the VMS console which will be responsible for the remainder of E > the VMS booting process, is first loaded from the system disk to benE > booted. This avoids the IPF having to "know" anything about how VMSs > wants to boot. >   I The EFI based boot on Itanium has little in common with how PCs typically C boot, it is pretty much along identical lines as how the SRM works.i  L The principal difference being that instead of doing a boot-block based bootI as is done on VAX and Alpha - EFI has the concept of a minimal filesystemeL (to be honest, the SRM console also knows about filesystems as well, we justK don't use it in the boot process).  Assuming a hard drive, the first blocksoL of the drive are used as partition information (several formats to allow forK DOS legacy disks).  This gets to a small FAT partition that contains the OS7
 bootstrap(s).w  E For mostly historical and build reasons, the VMS bootstrap (or in EFIMG terms - the OS Boot Loader) loads a second image (IPB) which then loads D SYSBOOT.  We _could_ have combined IPB into SYSBOOT, or IPB into theL VMS_LOADER - we just didn't (VMS_LOADER is built on a Windows system, and weK didn't want to export too much VMS-specific knowledge into a seperate buildo
 environment).s  L None of the images should be considered a "VMS console".  They are just part@ of the bootstrap.  There is some SMP code that "hangs around" inK VMS_LOADER -- but that just was the choice of the guy doing CPU management.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:00:15 -0500o& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>@ Subject: Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade8 Message-ID: <fmk2109v7q91qblpqjtts62jl1is1r81qn@4ax.com>  O On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:11:22 GMT, hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)  wrote:  D >I don't know what is happening here, but so far as I know there wasH >no change in the format of the system parameters file betwee V7.3-1 and >V7.3-2.  L Well, according to the V7.3-2 New Features manual there are at least two new: SYSGEN parameters: SHADOW_REC_DLY and SHADOW_SITE_ID. See:  D 	http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/aa-rv8xa-te/aa-rv8xa-te.HTML  ? Wouldn't this of necessity change the internal format somewhat?kI -------------------------------------------------------------------------tI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comeI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)3I -------------------------------------------------------------------------n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:02:10 -0500a& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>@ Subject: Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade8 Message-ID: <v7o2105i9271le85hhi0tndm4l3i5mnvsf@4ax.com>  H On 21 Jan 2004 13:53:32 -0800, rrb35146@yahoo.com (Robbie Benton) wrote:  F >Recently, I installed (not upgraded) OpenVMS V7.3-2 on one of the VMSG >machines in my cluster.  I noticed that a parameter file created under @ >V7.3-1 would not be processed as expected by SYSGEN on a V7.3-2< >system.  Below is an example of what I have seen.  The fileB >TESTPARMS.PAR is the result of a SYSGEN WRITE command on a V7.3-1C >system and currently is located on a shared shadow set that allows.G >both the V7.3-1 and V7.3-2 system to access it for this demonstration.b  H <-- snip the details, which showed GBLPAGES and GBLPAGFIL not displaying/ correctly on V7.3-2 accessing a V7.3-1 file -->>  P I did the same experiment, copying ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR from a V7.3-1 node to my testP V7.3-2 node, then a USE, then SHOW GBL and got similar discrepancies to what you showed:b   Actual V7.3-1 system:lM GBLSECTIONS                  3000        250        80      65535 Sections   sN GBLPAGES                 20351739      65536     10240         -1 Pagelets   DN  internal value           1271984       4096       640         -1 Pages      DN GBLPAGFIL                   98304        512        32         -1 Pages      D  / Transferred to V7.3-2 system, USE, and display:rM GBLSECTIONS                  3000        250        80      65535 Sections   rN GBLPAGES                   460147      65536     10240         -1 Pagelets   DN  internal value             28760       4096       640         -1 Pages      DN GBLPAGFIL                   18432        512        32         -1 Pages      D  N As I said in a previous post, I would not have expected this to work so am not: surprised, but from what Charlie posted he is surprised...I -------------------------------------------------------------------------BI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comMI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)3I -------------------------------------------------------------------------n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:11:04 GMTr3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)e@ Subject: Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 Upgrade3 Message-ID: <YsdQb.12918$9h6.3182@news.cpqcorp.net>   9 In article <fmk2109v7q91qblpqjtts62jl1is1r81qn@4ax.com>, w( David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:  M >  ... according to the V7.3-2 New Features manual there are at least two new : >SYSGEN parameters: SHADOW_REC_DLY and SHADOW_SITE_ID. ... ..@ <wouldn't this of necessity change the internal format somewhat?  E Only in the same way that adding an employee alters the payroll file.sC I would say that the content has been extended, but that the formatu remains the same.n   -- tJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:57:33 -0500o From: norm.raphael@metso.com@ Subject: Re: SYSGEN, Parameter Files, and V7.3-1->V7.3-2 UpgradeQ Message-ID: <OF5D608440.3D770064-ON85256E24.0067CF8B-85256E24.00687666@metso.com>e  A David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> wrote on 01/23/2004 01:02:10 PM:e  J > On 21 Jan 2004 13:53:32 -0800, rrb35146@yahoo.com (Robbie Benton) wrote: >nH > >Recently, I installed (not upgraded) OpenVMS V7.3-2 on one of the VMSI > >machines in my cluster.  I noticed that a parameter file created underyB > >V7.3-1 would not be processed as expected by SYSGEN on a V7.3-2> > >system.  Below is an example of what I have seen.  The fileD > >TESTPARMS.PAR is the result of a SYSGEN WRITE command on a V7.3-1E > >system and currently is located on a shared shadow set that allows-I > >both the V7.3-1 and V7.3-2 system to access it for this demonstration.m >oJ > <-- snip the details, which showed GBLPAGES and GBLPAGFIL not displaying1 > correctly on V7.3-2 accessing a V7.3-1 file -->A >mB > I did the same experiment, copying ALPHAVMSSYS.PAR from a V7.3-1 > node to my test F > V7.3-2 node, then a USE, then SHOW GBL and got similar discrepancies
 > to what youi	 > showed:o >  > Actual V7.3-1 system:3C > GBLSECTIONS                  3000        250        80      65535  SectionsC > GBLPAGES                 20351739      65536     10240         -1t Pagelets   DI >  internal value           1271984       4096       640         -1 Pagese DtI > GBLPAGFIL                   98304        512        32         -1 Pagesr Dq >i   SYSGEN>  SET GBLPAGES 20351739 SYSGEN>  SHO/HEX GBLPAGES G Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.      Max.     UnitM DynamicVG --------------           -------    -------    -------   -------   ----m -------oI GBLPAGES                 01368AFB   00010000  00002800  FFFFFFFF Pageletsc DaF  internal value          001368B0   00001000  00000280  FFFFFFFF Pages Dp SYSGEN>  SET GBLPAGES 460147 SYSGEN>  SHO /HEX GBLPAGESG Parameter Name           Current    Default     Min.      Max.     Unity DynamictG --------------           -------    -------    -------   -------   ----f -------tI GBLPAGES                 00070573   00010000  00002800  FFFFFFFF Pageletsn DiF  internal value          00007058   00001000  00000280  FFFFFFFF Pages D  SYSGEN>"  B Did the value of Pagelets change from one page =16 512KB pagelets?  1 > Transferred to V7.3-2 system, USE, and display:MC > GBLSECTIONS                  3000        250        80      65535e SectionsC > GBLPAGES                   460147      65536     10240         -1n Pagelets   DI >  internal value             28760       4096       640         -1 Pagesa D I > GBLPAGFIL                   18432        512        32         -1 PagesH Do > K > As I said in a previous post, I would not have expected this to workso am9 not6< > surprised, but from what Charlie posted he is surprised...K > -------------------------------------------------------------------------eK > David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com K > Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)SK > -------------------------------------------------------------------------l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:25:45 +0100 ( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems.: Message-ID: <MCELKPMOKPMNDNKJNIONCEIJCJAA.win@fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  K here Andrew a little bit from my life. Before a few years, we did have lessdN problems with OpenVMS (a few per year) and many problems with Suns Solaris. SoP the Solaris systemadministrator have to do a lot of work. His job was/is secure.P We have to engage one more administrator for it. I was afraid about my job. LessM work. So I did have the great idea to install all the "do nix with UNIX" waremP and opensource tools for OpenVMS, with the result: now I have enaugh work and weI have to engage a second administrator to fix all the wholes of the secure M UNIXware and opensource tools. Come on Andrew. How was it possible to get EAL N certification. The must have closed both eyes. I do get dayly Emails from CERTM with security wholes (not bugs!!) within any flavour of UNIX including LINUX.-P There are security wholes within SSH, rwrite, ... All of them gave normal user /N hacker root rights. Within the hacker contest, OpenVMS was so secure, that theK hacker could not break in within 48 hour. There is no other OS, which is as  secure.m   Best regards Rudolf Wingert7  L P.S. There a a lot of OpenVMS WEBusers, without any firewall and no breakin.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:07:05 +0000tO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>aI Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems 0 Message-ID: <bur9qa$7kg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:i* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > > >>No its not. There is ample evidence that OpenVMS security is> >>partly based on what appears to be an attempt to obscure any> >>issues that may exist. You only have to examine the POP saga >>to verify this claim.  >  > P > The number of vulnerabilities of an OS depends on how much an OS moves and howI > much the software on the OS moves and how much software there is on it.g >   > Hence my point about the relative code sizes of Bob apparently8 unhackable 80's VMS release and what is available today.    N > VMS is at another extreme. Very stable environment, very litle software leftK > on it, and no radical changes with every new release. So it has much less U > potential for new bugs to creep in, and more chances that old bugs have been fixed.  >   # Thats not quite true if you look ats  A http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.htmlu  H You will not that the individual 7.x releases each include large amounts of new functionality/code.  5 This is all relative of course compared with windows.V  L > Combine this with the fact that Windows is designed to have holes in it toM > make all sorts of marketing features (which attract cviruses), while VMS isrM > more focused at improving availability/availability with much work it seemssK > going towards supporting new cluster interconnects as well as Guy Peleg's  > improvements to DCL. >   7 I don't thinks its fair to say that Windows is designed-5 to have holes in. Windows is designed around a number-8 of things that are security holes or rather security was= not one of their origional design goals. ActiveX for example.i  > You now have loads of Windows programmers at Microsoft engaged@ in a frantic and very expensive (to MS and their customers) game of bash the Rat.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonk   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:14:12 GMTp& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsp8 Message-ID: <erd210pggj66tjjn5navnfp4ei2arg0l13@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:07:04 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancya. <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote:mH >> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:54:11 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  >> b >>   >>>jlsue wrote:! >>>nL >>>>It was a "yes" or "no" question.... but it appears that by your responseH >>>>you believe that, 'yes' there are *many* security vulnerabilities in, >>>>OpenVMS, and that most are not reported. >>>> >>>c4 >>>What eveidence do you have that the many claim if" >>>I chose to make it isn't true ? >>>  >> t >> tK >> That's a silly discussion point.  Nobody would waste time defending some * >> vague notion of hypothetical arguments. >> a >0= >No its not. There is ample evidence that OpenVMS security iss= >partly based on what appears to be an attempt to obscure anyg= >issues that may exist. You only have to examine the POP saga  >to verify this claim.  I Hogwash.  OpenVMS security has been very open.  I've worked in that field J since 1985, and the engineers have always been very open about the patchesJ needed.  However, not all patches were required because they didn't always( patch a vulnerability that affected VMS.  I Also, your attempt to draw some full-blown conclusion about the OS merely D based on a single - very arguable - data point is invalid.  For yourJ opinion about how unsecure VMS is to be true, you'd have to come up with aI lot more data points, and you wouldn't be allowed to ignore opposing datai either.   G Anyone can prove a point with carefully selected data.  But that tacticeH does more to call the originator's motives into question than it does to advance the arguments.   >eB >Given this and a history of non or missreporting of vunerabilitesB >its is perfectly fair to ask you how you would propose to supportC >your apparent proposition that the number of actual vunerabilities@& >in OpenVMS is small rather than many.  E Because I actually receive the patches and, in some cases, I actually$D install them.  And the fact that very few patches are released - andG OpenVMS engineering actually has a very good history of taking securityoE seriously and plugging real security holes - only lends support to myg( position concerning relative security.    C Also note that OpenVMS engineering is not responsible for all othertE software products involved in any particular environment - and TCP/IPeH Services (aka UCX) is one of those.  Of all of the many layered productsK that have gone through the DEC/CPQ/HPQ portfolio for OpenVMS, not that manysC were developed and supported within OpenVMS engineering.  Some were E downright horrible applications at first too, but that could not, and0? should not, be construed as any failing on OpenVMS engineering.R  G All that said, I am not supporting the contention that CERT is the bestDF measure.  And I am not saying that OpenVMS is free from security bugs.  H However, as one with many, many years dealign with that OS, including atD security management levels, I can say that I have spent a relativelyC miniscule amount of time worrying about OS-based security problems.    > 8 >Ironically OpenVMS has no EAL certification of any kind9 >Solaris, AIX, HP-UX do. Perhaps instead of claiming thats7 >OpenVMS is secure you should cough up the cash and get- >it evaluated.  C EAL: is a new one to me.  I do know that specific configurations ofhI OpenVMS, layered products, and hardware have acheived very high govermentiJ security ratings (U.S. Fed).  It has been, and is still even, used in some" exceptionally high-security areas.   >g8 >> Make specific statements and those will be addressed. >> m) >I have and as you know they havn't been.c  H I believe that someone has answered all, or almost all, of the items youG discussed earlier in this thread.  Did you read that/those response(s)?t Was something missed in them?   G Also not that you'll NEVER win the argument that layered product issues K should be reported as an OS vulnerability in th is discussion, so why wastea" our time any longer on that issue.   --- jlsa0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:20:29 GMTa& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsa8 Message-ID: <jne210dmsp4mfb58g42upc8m7jdv92ql65@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:07:05 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyg. <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote:  Q >> The number of vulnerabilities of an OS depends on how much an OS moves and howhJ >> much the software on the OS moves and how much software there is on it. >> o > ? >Hence my point about the relative code sizes of Bob apparentlyd9 >unhackable 80's VMS release and what is available today.c  G Relative code sizes may make the bug issue more complex, but it doesn'tDJ have to be as simple of a correlation as you make it out to be.  In actualJ fact, there are certain programming practices that are more susceptible toH introducing bugs in general, and security ones in particular.  FollowingG good engineering discipline is one such way to significantly reduce the-! occurrences of these cropping up.   K For example, there are well-known ways to prevent buffer overflow bugs.  IfrG the programmers aren't so lazy in their practices, they can avoid theseeI easily 100% of the time.  Yes, 100%.  But you have to be committed to the  discipline.o   >b > O >> VMS is at another extreme. Very stable environment, very litle software lefteL >> on it, and no radical changes with every new release. So it has much lessV >> potential for new bugs to creep in, and more chances that old bugs have been fixed. >> t >e$ >Thats not quite true if you look at >tB >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html >oI >You will not that the individual 7.x releases each include large amounts, >of new functionality/code.t  K Exactly.  However, raw code count and feature additions does not prove that.D something is inherently less stable or less secure.  There are other@ factors involved, and on is the discipline (standards, proceses,0 procedures, etc) that the engineering team uses.     --- jls 0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:34:47 GMT-& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems 8 Message-ID: <p5f210heifjb4qmap8nc22p3mvm75cdkkq@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:12:32 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancys. <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  
 >jlsue wrote: H >> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:59:49 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  >> - >> - >> -: >>>No I have simpoly looked at the CERT vunerabilites that6 >>>HP/Compaq/Digital have admitted to for OpenVMS 7.x. >>>  >> s >> oK >> But it ASSUMES that a patch is issued IFF it fixes a real vulnerability.aK >> That's just not always the case.  Especially with "common" or "standard"fN >> code, as in Open Source.  In that case you need to keep your code stream upN >> with the rest of the planet or else you face much greater problems later on9 >> when you need newer versions of code for new features.@ >> e >d= >So why admit to a vunerbility in a CERT advisory and release  >a patch for it ?m >a; >Either your theory is correct in which case your engineers 0 >are incompetent or my theory is and they arn't. >0 >Which is it ?  I Well, neither.  Those aren't the only two possibilities.  First off, you, A once again, *assume* that everything released to CERT "admit[s] a K vulnerability".  This is not necessarily the case.  It may be possible thatsD the patch was necessary, but that it didn't actually plug a specific1 security hole, only made the code work correctly.y  K I have seen several of these kinds of bugs over the years.  In one way, thePC bug would affect the operation of the affected piece of TCP/IP (for F example), but it would NOT open up a security vulnerability to the OS.F Some of the buffer overflow issues are good examples.  I've seen casesG where, indeed, the code on VMS did have the buffer overflow bug, but itaE would NOT allow privileged access (or any unauthorized) access to the K system.  In some of the cases it would only cause the "listener" process toaK die, but this didn't cause a problem because on the next user connection iteI would just be re-created and processing would continue without any notice 
 to the users.d  I And, yes, CERT would be the place to release such patches because CERT isd9 where people concerned with the patch are likely to look.l  I I'm sure I'm wasting my fingers trying to explain all that to you, but itVI would realy help if you accept that some people actually DO have in-depth J experience in these areas, and that you should possibly at least hear themG out... unless, of course,  you're willing to spend more time doing reallG work on the systems in question to attain enough experience to have the - credibility needed to discuss it any further.m  H Please don't take that in an overly critical way.  But there are some inB here who actually work(ed) in security engineering who have a realJ background to lend credibility to what they're saying.  If you're not evenJ willing to consider what they're saying, you're not helping your case any.   >b >> g6 >>>The quantity of new code in OpenVMS is one possible8 >>>explanation, as is choice of language etc. Whats your >>>explanation ? >>>r >> h >> aF >> Another possible explanation is that OpenVMS is keeping up with the2 >> OpenSource community to maintain compatibility. >> e >i1 >Well except that the POP hole may well have beenc2 >in a program that was based on OpenSource (is it)2 >but the hole is all Compaq/HP's. No corrosponding* >hole exists in any OpenSouce POP servers. >a >Nice try no cigar.(  J Assuming you really know what you're talking about wrt OpenVMS and the POPK hole, then you could be right.  However, you're knowledge of the details ofoC what's happening internal to HP and OpenVMS engineering, and TCP/IPrK engineering is probably not enough to really draw correct conclusions from.u  K I will support your argument against using CERT as any measure of security. G However it should be noted that OpenVMS admins definitely do spend lessdB time patching security problems than counterparts with other OSes.   --- jlsc0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:40:19 +0000hO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsm0 Message-ID: <burf94$9kn$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:07:04 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  >  >>jlsue wrote: >>H >>>On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:54:11 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >>><Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:N >>>S >>>f >>>0 >>>>jlsue wrote: >>>> >>>>M >>>>>It was a "yes" or "no" question.... but it appears that by your response I >>>>>you believe that, 'yes' there are *many* security vulnerabilities ino- >>>>>OpenVMS, and that most are not reported.e >>>>>  >>>>5 >>>>What eveidence do you have that the many claim ifo# >>>>I chose to make it isn't true ?o >>>> >>>o >>> K >>>That's a silly discussion point.  Nobody would waste time defending some * >>>vague notion of hypothetical arguments. >>>m >>> >>No its not. There is ample evidence that OpenVMS security is> >>partly based on what appears to be an attempt to obscure any> >>issues that may exist. You only have to examine the POP saga >>to verify this claim.i >  > K > Hogwash.  OpenVMS security has been very open.  I've worked in that fieldaL > since 1985, and the engineers have always been very open about the patchesL > needed.  However, not all patches were required because they didn't always* > patch a vulnerability that affected VMS. >   < Sorry but this is demonstrably untrue, POP, LAND etc dispove: your point, there isn't to my knowlege a patch that refers7 to LAND but OpenVMS IP services were vunerable to LAND.e  5 Why base your argument on a point that has already be 
 compromised ?,  K > Also, your attempt to draw some full-blown conclusion about the OS merelygF > based on a single - very arguable - data point is invalid.  For yourL > opinion about how unsecure VMS is to be true, you'd have to come up with aK > lot more data points, and you wouldn't be allowed to ignore opposing datah	 > either.n >   8 Sorry but again this is untrue, I have provided multiple datapoints.   I > Anyone can prove a point with carefully selected data.  But that tactic J > does more to call the originator's motives into question than it does to > advance the arguments. >  So what is your excuse ? > C >>Given this and a history of non or missreporting of vunerabilites C >>its is perfectly fair to ask you how you would propose to supporteD >>your apparent proposition that the number of actual vunerabilities' >>in OpenVMS is small rather than many.h >  > G > Because I actually receive the patches and, in some cases, I actuallyeF > install them.  And the fact that very few patches are released - andI > OpenVMS engineering actually has a very good history of taking security3G > seriously and plugging real security holes - only lends support to myO* > position concerning relative security.   > E > Also note that OpenVMS engineering is not responsible for all othertG > software products involved in any particular environment - and TCP/IP J > Services (aka UCX) is one of those.  Of all of the many layered productsM > that have gone through the DEC/CPQ/HPQ portfolio for OpenVMS, not that manyhE > were developed and supported within OpenVMS engineering.  Some wereSG > downright horrible applications at first too, but that could not, andlA > should not, be construed as any failing on OpenVMS engineering.  > = Sorry but this is claptrap, claiming that the problems wern'to? the responsibility of OpenVMS engineering is irrelevant OpenVMS ; engineering and engineers for the layered products all workt for the same company.e    E > EAL: is a new one to me.  I do know that specific configurations ofmK > OpenVMS, layered products, and hardware have acheived very high govermentoL > security ratings (U.S. Fed).  It has been, and is still even, used in some$ > exceptionally high-security areas. >   > Its an internationally agreed replacement for Orange Book etc.   > 8 >>>Make specific statements and those will be addressed. >>>n >>* >>I have and as you know they havn't been. >  > J > I believe that someone has answered all, or almost all, of the items youI > discussed earlier in this thread.  Did you read that/those response(s)?  > Was something missed in them?5 >   : Sadly this assumption is also incorrect, Bob, Bob and Mark9 have in fact done a truly terrible job of answering them.c  7 So terrible that they are in Rob Young territory, to bet fair Bob C was there already.o  I > Also not that you'll NEVER win the argument that layered product issuestM > should be reported as an OS vulnerability in th is discussion, so why wastee$ > our time any longer on that issue. >e= Sorry more BS, the layered products are produced by HP/compaqf= and are required by your customers. If they arn't reported ase( an OS issue then how are they reported ?  9 It would appear that your contention that OpenVMS is moreh: secure than other OS's is mainly based on the way that the8 OS and its layered products are packaged rather than how secure the whole solution is.g  < And sadly for you because it just exposes your BS a bit more? sometimes HP/Compaq have reported layered product vunerabilites  as OS issues in CERT.    Regardst Andrew Harrison   	 > --- jlst2 > The preceding message was personal opinion only.8 > I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,   > and certainly not my employer./ > (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:54:44 -0600 ( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsa/ Message-ID: <00A2C527.C60AAECD.2@tachysoft.com>a  ' >From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>  >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsJ >Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems! >Organization: not that I know ofo   >nH >Also not that you'll NEVER win the argument that layered product issuesL >should be reported as an OS vulnerability in th is discussion, so why waste# >our time any longer on that issue.a >   H Because he apparently doesn't have anything else to do.  Sitting here inC comp.os.vms harrassing us appears to be his entire job description.dO =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html   CO ===============================================================================iB Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?", 	Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:38:24 +0000iO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>oI Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems-0 Message-ID: <burim1$b0r$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:G > On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:12:32 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyd0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >   K > Well, neither.  Those aren't the only two possibilities.  First off, you,eC > once again, *assume* that everything released to CERT "admit[s] aiM > vulnerability".  This is not necessarily the case.  It may be possible that F > the patch was necessary, but that it didn't actually plug a specific3 > security hole, only made the code work correctly.s >   C Look when you provide an advisory that says OpenVMS/OpenVMS layered > product is vunerable, apply patch such and such, or upgrade to> release such and such then how much leaway do you really think: there is for your argument that there may not in fact be a vunerability ??S  7 You point is patently ridiculous as you should realise.B  D CERT is where people provide responses to identified vunerabilities,@ there have been plenty of examples of OpenVMS being vunerable to? CERT exploits without any admitted vunerability or patch for itl< being posted but are you seriously suggesting that sometimes= you have also admitted to a vunerability and provided a patch- when you were not vunerable ?r  2 Does the latter behaviour balance out the former ?M > I have seen several of these kinds of bugs over the years.  In one way, thegE > bug would affect the operation of the affected piece of TCP/IP (forhH > example), but it would NOT open up a security vulnerability to the OS.H > Some of the buffer overflow issues are good examples.  I've seen casesI > where, indeed, the code on VMS did have the buffer overflow bug, but it G > would NOT allow privileged access (or any unauthorized) access to the M > system.  In some of the cases it would only cause the "listener" process torM > die, but this didn't cause a problem because on the next user connection it K > would just be re-created and processing would continue without any notice  > to the users.h > K > And, yes, CERT would be the place to release such patches because CERT ist; > where people concerned with the patch are likely to look.  > K > I'm sure I'm wasting my fingers trying to explain all that to you, but itsK > would realy help if you accept that some people actually DO have in-depth L > experience in these areas, and that you should possibly at least hear themI > out... unless, of course,  you're willing to spend more time doing realfI > work on the systems in question to attain enough experience to have the / > credibility needed to discuss it any further.i >   E The problem is that the facts contradict you and the other choristers H and instead you have to base your arguments what isn't a very convincingC hypothesis. Not convincing because your CERT advisories, your patchb? reports and the advice of your technical experts contradict it.'  J > Please don't take that in an overly critical way.  But there are some inD > here who actually work(ed) in security engineering who have a realL > background to lend credibility to what they're saying.  If you're not evenL > willing to consider what they're saying, you're not helping your case any. >   6 Please don't take this the wrong way but so far no one6 who has responded to this thread to support your point5 has been at all credible ............................s. .......................... including yourself.   > 7 >>>>The quantity of new code in OpenVMS is one possiblel9 >>>>explanation, as is choice of language etc. Whats yourm >>>>explanation ?. >>>> >>>e >>>oF >>>Another possible explanation is that OpenVMS is keeping up with the2 >>>OpenSource community to maintain compatibility. >>>m >>2 >>Well except that the POP hole may well have been3 >>in a program that was based on OpenSource (is it)t3 >>but the hole is all Compaq/HP's. No corrospondingW+ >>hole exists in any OpenSouce POP servers.d >> >>Nice try no cigar. >  > L > Assuming you really know what you're talking about wrt OpenVMS and the POPM > hole, then you could be right.  However, you're knowledge of the details of E > what's happening internal to HP and OpenVMS engineering, and TCP/IPoM > engineering is probably not enough to really draw correct conclusions from.- >   9 Again you would be incorrect, you may have forgotten that-9 the POP hole was not uncovered by OpenVMS engineering but08 by a third party who has documented their exchanges with the engineering team.P   Regardsl Andrew Harrison7   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:23:36 -0800n0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems2' Message-ID: <4010f628$1@cpns1.saic.com>e   jlsue wrote:G > [a clear and concise response to Andrew show some of the holes in hise  >  arguments]  E This has been an interesting discussion.  From my point of view, the  E only thing Andrew has "proven" is his inability to grasp the concept sI that his interpretation of things may not always be spot on.  There have  G been some very telling points raised in this discussion.  Based on his p8 posts, Andrew firmly believes he has rebutted every one.  H It is probably time to let it go.  All of the points raised are now out G there for anyone to review who cares to.  Andrew does not seem capable nI of learning but I believe there is enough in this thread for anyone else h to see the truth..  
 Mark BerrymanS   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:14:01 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systems ) Message-ID: <40116468.A08DC242@istop.com>P  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:@ > Hence my point about the relative code sizes of Bob apparently: > unhackable 80's VMS release and what is available today.  E VMS has had its shares of "problems". WANK for one. And then the MAIL J engineers had to "fix" MAIL so that it wouldn't display control charactersN embedded in the message since some folks were sending "nasty emails". But this& is nowhere near what Windows has seen.  J > You will not that the individual 7.x releases each include large amounts > of new functionality/code.  M It depends what is added. If you add stuff that is user mode utility that has-K no privileges, and the underlying kernel remains secure, then you don't add . vulnerabilities from a security point of view.  J Where the danger resides is in software that is installed with privileges.  9 > I don't thinks its fair to say that Windows is designed  > to have holes in.-  M Yes it is designed that way. Microsoft wanted to make it very easy to execuseoM VB scripts from the email program from received emails, with scripts grantingUL access to a lot of the user's system. This was a designed-in feature withoutK really thinking about security issues. Same with the outlook which executes>8 attachements in the preview pane (which si the default).  E The IIS bug that allowed code red isn't designed into ISS, but it wasSG permitted because they designed IIS to require runnning with all mightyo> privileges, thus allowing it to mess around with system files.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:55:53 +0000uO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>PI Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsp0 Message-ID: <burn79$cim$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Wayne Sewell wrote: ( >>From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net> >>X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms-K >>Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsj" >>Organization: not that I know of >  > I >>Also not that you'll NEVER win the argument that layered product issues6M >>should be reported as an OS vulnerability in th is discussion, so why waste4$ >>our time any longer on that issue. >> >  > J > Because he apparently doesn't have anything else to do.  Sitting here inE > comp.os.vms harrassing us appears to be his entire job description..  9 You seem to be labouring under a serious missaprehension.o  8 I am not harrassing anyone, I am putting some trolls out of their misery.  7 Anyone posting articles claiming that the low number ofi9 CERTS published for OpenVMS is an indication that OpenVMSe; is more secure than other OS's is a troll. Its a point that-4 has been conclusively disproved over and over again.  5 If you don't want to see trolls getting flamed then I 6 would suggest that you ask them nicely to stop posting BS.V   Regardss Andrew Harrison Q > ===============================================================================eP > Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com= > http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    Q > ===============================================================================PD > Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?". > 	Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:51:22 +0000 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> - Subject: Re: VMS authentication to Windows AD 0 Message-ID: <buqubb$3lv$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Richard B. Gilbert wrote: J > External authentication has been possible since VMS V7.2-1 and possibly ) > before then.  I never tried it because:8 > a. I didn't need it, and0 > b. I'd hate to trust my security to Microsoft! >    You don't have to.  ; Assuming that VMS can support external authentication usinge8 LDAP then install a 3rd party LDAP server that has an AD9 gateway, point your VMS boxes at the LDAP server and your-: windows boxes at the AD server(s) and let the gateway keep the passwords etc in sync.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonn > RTFM for the details.  >  > Michael D. Ober wrote: > K >> I need to have my users periodically change their passwords, but most ofaJ >> them are computer illiterate (they have no idea what a command line is  >> andD >> sometimes have a hard time logging into a Windows Domain without 
 >> help).  Is J >> there anyway to have VMS authenticate to a Windows 2000 AD Domain?  I'mC >> reasonably sure I can train them to change their passwords when a >> prompted by >> the domain. >> >> TCPIP SHO VER returns >>@ >> Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.3 - ECO 2: >>  on a AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB running OpenVMS V7.3-1 >>
 >> Thanks,
 >> Mike Ober.u >> >> >>   >> >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:50:15 -0500  From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: VMS Games problemQ Message-ID: <OFCA5EA1D3.7DF8D1CD-ON85256E24.005139F5-85256E24.0051D21A@metso.com>S  K ----- Forwarded by Norm Raphael/WOR/Automation/METSO on 01/23/2004 09:50 AM  ------  A John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote on 01/22/2004 08:13:29 PM:r  6 > I downloaded ZK.ZIP using Mozilla, ran UNZIP, used a >s* > set file zk.bck/attr=(rfm:fix,lrl:32256) >tH > to fixup the saveset, and was able to use BACKUP to list the contents. >  > --
 > John Reaganb) > Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader  > Hewlett-Packard Companyp >M  E I just pulled DUNGEON from the same place, and when it tried it, thisy	 happened:t  E Is there a version of DUNEON somewhere that actually works on OpenVMS  Alpha?K Every archive I have found has a problem or a piece of source code missing.h  ; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtualp address=000000000026& 63BB, PC=0000000000277A0C, PS=0000001B/ %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump followsoJ   image    module    routine             line      rel PC           abs PC>  FORRTL_D56_TV                              0 000000000001FA0C 0000000000277A0C>  TIE$SHARE                                                   ? ? ! ----- Begin Translated VAX Framesi; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=04, virtuale address=002663B80000& 0000, PC=000000007B92B080, PS=0000001B  2   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.1     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000005s1                         Name   = 000000000000000Cs1                                  0000000000000004E1                                  002663B800000000-1                                  000000007B92B08041                                  000000000000001Bl       Register dump:J     R0  = 0000000000028009  R1  = 000000007AE0B864  R2  = 000000007B91A388J     R3  = 000000007AE0ACE0  R4  = 000000007AE0ABF0  R5  = 000000007AE0ABE8J     R6  = 000000007AE0ABD8  R7  = 002663B800000000  R8  = 000000007AE0ACD0J     R9  = 000000000000645C  R10 = 0000000000000004  R11 = 00000000002EC14CJ     R12 = 000000007AE0B88C  R13 = 000000007AE0B864  R14 = 000000007AE0B844J     R15 = 0000000000260000  R16 = 0000000000000001  R17 = 000000000000000EJ     R18 = 0000000000000000  R19 = 283C000000000000  R20 = 000000007AE0B864J     R21 = 283C00000025B58E  R22 = 0000000000000000  R23 = 0000000000000001J     R24 = 000000007AE0A998  R25 = 0000000000000001  R26 = 000000007B92B074J     R27 = 000000007B58A0A0  R28 = 0000000000000000  R29 = 000000007AE0AA10J     SP  = 000000007AE0A9F0  PC  = 000000007B92B080  PS  = 300000000000001B) %FOR-F-RECIO_OPE, recursive I/O operationa   unit 1  file   user PC 00000000   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:44:41 -0800t0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> Subject: Re: VMS Games problem' Message-ID: <4010fb1a$1@cpns1.saic.com>    norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:iM > ----- Forwarded by Norm Raphael/WOR/Automation/METSO on 01/23/2004 09:50 AMr > -----e > C > John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote on 01/22/2004 08:13:29 PM:  >  > 6 >>I downloaded ZK.ZIP using Mozilla, ran UNZIP, used a >>* >>set file zk.bck/attr=(rfm:fix,lrl:32256) >>H >>to fixup the saveset, and was able to use BACKUP to list the contents. >> >>--
 >>John Reaganc) >>Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader  >>Hewlett-Packard Company  >> >  > G > I just pulled DUNGEON from the same place, and when it tried it, thisw > happened:  > G > Is there a version of DUNEON somewhere that actually works on OpenVMSo > Alpha? [remainder snipped]    Do you mean this?a   ALDUR$ sho cpu  ' System: ALDUR, AlphaServer DS10 617 MHzo   CPU ownership sets:c     Active               0     Configure            0   CPU state sets:e     Potential            0     Autostart            0     Powered Down         None:     Not Present          Nonex     Failover             None:   ALDUR$ sho sys/noprocoK OpenVMS V7.3-2  on node ALDUR  23-JAN-2004 10:38:09.82  Uptime  17 19:10:322   ALDUR$ dungeonF Welcome to Dungeon.                     This version created 1-Oct-94.F This is an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.; A rubber mat saying "Welcome to Dungeon!" lies by the door.N  >  E I have a working executable.  If I look hard enough, I probably have " sources as well.  
 Mark Berrymanp   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 07:01:27 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver$ Message-ID: <buqgs6$skh$1@online.de>  E In article <uB1Qb.56141$LW.27244@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, "Mike Naime"f <mnaime@kc.rr.com> writes:    > > > >> IMGACT-F-NOTNATIVE, image is not an OpenVMS Alpha image  8 > > If it's a VMS Screensaver, should it not run on VMS? > B > Ok, how many of you out there have a graphics card stuck in yourM > Alphaservers and use the graphical GUI to manage your system?  I think thatuL > there are more like me that used a VT and now use a Whindoze PeeCee telnetM > program to connect to their VMS boxes.  For me, a screensaver running on myaM > (production) Alphaservers would just use up unnecessary CPU cycles and havec > nothing to output too!  I I would think that while some folks might use a VT, many would have some lF VMS workstation under their desk, a nice monitor with DECwindows, and , log in to the various systems from DECterms.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:46:39 +0100o* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver0 Message-ID: <4011099F.7062DE76@sture.homeip.net>   Mike Naime wrote:  > . > <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message, > news:00A2C1E6.5B920B53@SendSpamHere.ORG...A > > In article <948f0720.0401181720.6cee1945@posting.google.com>, 4 > chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk (Chris Doran) writes:0 > > >VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message. > news:<00A2BFC4.0C404DF6@SendSpamHere.ORG>...D > > >> In article <b096a4ee.0401161101.5c632c58@posting.google.com>,2 > spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:I > > >> >Two slides after "Alpha ready" in the VMS screen saver slide showgL > > >> >there is a picture of a reddish/yellowish/greenish disk. What is it? > > >> >. > > >> >(You can get the VMS screen saver from > > >> >= > > >> >    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/25th/index.htmle > > >> > > >> I get ... > > >>> > > >> IMGACT-F-NOTNATIVE, image is not an OpenVMS Alpha image > > >hI > > >This is because HP, not having heard of OpenVMS Alpha, have built ite > > >for Windows instead.t > >p= > > Sarcasm.  It was meant as a gibe in light of the subject:  > >r1 > >     What is mystery object in VMS screensavern1 > >                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l > >t8 > > If it's a VMS Screensaver, should it not run on VMS? > >D > B > Ok, how many of you out there have a graphics card stuck in yourM > Alphaservers and use the graphical GUI to manage your system?  I think thateL > there are more like me that used a VT and now use a Whindoze PeeCee telnetM > program to connect to their VMS boxes.  For me, a screensaver running on mypM > (production) Alphaservers would just use up unnecessary CPU cycles and haves > nothing to output too! >   A Perhaps just the way it happened, but in one main server room, we G managed to keep a 4100 with a graphics card going after its applicationnA had retired, and found it incredibly useful when working on othern systems in that room.   G Once you get used to DECterm multiple windows and copy and paste, goingsF back to a VT is a bit of a drag, not to mention the hassles of finding' the right cable for your terminal cart.y    F > So, they make screensavers for about everything else.   Why not VMS?    G Why not indeed, though personally, I've never had time for anything buts a blank screensaver.   -- s
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:56:22 GMTe" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver0 Message-ID: <00A2C506.79E20655@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <uB1Qb.56141$LW.27244@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> writes: {...snip...}A >Ok, how many of you out there have a graphics card stuck in your-L >Alphaservers and use the graphical GUI to manage your system?  I think that  E Well, I do with the exception of an AS1200 which doesn't seem to have-/ proper support for any known available card. :(d    K >there are more like me that used a VT and now use a Whindoze PeeCee telnetwL >program to connect to their VMS boxes.  For me, a screensaver running on myL >(production) Alphaservers would just use up unnecessary CPU cycles and have >nothing to output too!h  H A screensaver (an oxymoron) wouldn't run if your machine was doing real H work.  My machines are never that idle.  From what I've seen of the Pee-H Cee realm, the screensaver is about the only thing that seems to run be-G cause no serious work is done with toys.  Serious work does not include 6 web surfing, resume updating, solitaire and AOL chat.     E >So, they make screensavers for about everything else.   Why not VMS?c  F Personally, I prefer my screen to blank and save the phosphors and theE electron beam gun heater filament.  The Gateway PeeCee monitor that IyG had here lasted a total of 6 months without a screensaver running. I'd e= imagine it might have made only 2-3 months service with one. g  F My PowerBook G4 is configured to blank too, turning off the screen and: keyboard backlights.  This conserves much battery power.     --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.g -- tK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            h5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:13:54 -0600n( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver0 Message-ID: <00A2C511.4E69219E.19@tachysoft.com>  & >From: "Mike Naime" <mnaime@kc.rr.com> >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms7 >Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensavera     >rA >Ok, how many of you out there have a graphics card stuck in your  >Alphaservers   N Have it on *one* system, connected to a vrc21, then route all windows from all5 nodes onto it, using a different color for each node.t  3 >and use the graphical GUI to manage your system?  d  O Depends on what you mean by graphical gui.  I use plain decterms on decwindows.rM Yes, it's a gui, but I don't really use graphics oriented displays too much. R4 Just decterms and other command-line-oriented stuff.  
 >I think thatgK >there are more like me that used a VT and now use a Whindoze PeeCee telnet1) >program to connect to their VMS boxes.  c  L I prefer decterms to telnet, because they behave *exactly* like a hard wiredB connection, with the added advantage of being able to scroll back.  M I *used* to do my browsing on vms using mozilla, but the graphic card is justmI too slow and I got tired of waiting for pages so long.  In their infinitetL wisdom, digitial (or compaq, whoever was in charge at the time) deliberatelyL crippled all the video cards that could be used with an alpha system so much) that you can almost count the bits go by.>  A So I finally gave up and now I do browsing with mozilla on a mac.r    $ >For me, a screensaver running on myL >(production) Alphaservers would just use up unnecessary CPU cycles and have >nothing to output too!@  I Doesn't matter that much to me.  Only one node has a monitor, much less aaO graphics card.  The wasted cycles would be only on that one node.  On the other 4 hand, the current screen blanking is okay with me.      O ===============================================================================fN Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html   oO ===============================================================================cB Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?", 	Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:30:00 -0600 ( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver/ Message-ID: <00A2C51B.EFC154D0.8@tachysoft.com>e   >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms7 >Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaverl! >From: VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGn1 >Message-ID: <00A2C506.79E20655@SendSpamHere.ORG>    >aG >My PowerBook G4 is configured to blank too, turning off the screen andc; >keyboard backlights.  This conserves much battery power.    >t  I My g4 is a desktop, so battery is not an issue.  However, I also have my sK display set to turn off instead of running a screensaver because it is a 23iO inch cinema display.  As much as that muhfug cost, I want it to last as long assB possible and don't see a reason to have it on just for lightshows.   WayneiO ===============================================================================aN Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html   tO ===============================================================================iB Jed Clampett, checking into hotel: "This place got a cement pond?", 	Ellie May: "And do yuh let critters in it?"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:12:49 +0100e& From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver$ Message-ID: <40114801.6956@c-lab.de>  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:n >    > M > >there are more like me that used a VT and now use a Whindoze PeeCee telnetpN > >program to connect to their VMS boxes.  For me, a screensaver running on myN > >(production) Alphaservers would just use up unnecessary CPU cycles and have > >nothing to output too!O > I > A screensaver (an oxymoron) wouldn't run if your machine was doing real J > work.  My machines are never that idle.  From what I've seen of the Pee-J > Cee realm, the screensaver is about the only thing that seems to run be-I > cause no serious work is done with toys.  Serious work does not includeh7 > web surfing, resume updating, solitaire and AOL chat.h    H That reminds me to the confession of Patrick Naughton, who wrote 'xlock'F at university before going to Sun and also having a role in that stuffC called Java... To quote from the epilogue of his outdated 'The Java 
 Handbook':  E ... I dove into X11 just like I had MS-DOS. I devoured the basics andnE started writing applications. The first few lines of code I wrote for D X11 were implementing an algorithm printed in an issue of ScientificB American the previous summer. It was an iterative fractal sequenceC called hopalong that drew rather hypnotic patterns on the screen. I-D adapted it to be a screen saver and gave away the source code on theH Internet. Todat, the program, xlock, is still running on every Sun, SGI,G and who knows how many other X11-based workstations all night long. I'mD> responsible for one of the world's largest wastes of computing resources. I apologize. ....     > G > >So, they make screensavers for about everything else.   Why not VMS?t >   F Well, then it would probably just-another-module in xlock or a similarG CDE application. True, why not - if you use it as a workstation. If theo? game of Life uses Sun logos as tiles, why not something VMSish?   H > Personally, I prefer my screen to blank and save the phosphors and theG > electron beam gun heater filament.  The Gateway PeeCee monitor that IOH > had here lasted a total of 6 months without a screensaver running. I'd> > imagine it might have made only 2-3 months service with one. >   E This is actually true. Most of the old VT220 clones I've seen pass bylH the ramp for recylcing had a very dim screen, so a good screen-saver for- a B/W monitor is probably still a blank one.  F And the color monitors that used to be switched off the evening mostlyG still have a crisp image after more than 7 years - like the ones I haveO1 and had in office. So, yes, blanking MAKES sense..   -- M* Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:28:14 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver0 Message-ID: <00A2C52C.73E7D380@SendSpamHere.ORG>  J >My g4 is a desktop, so battery is not an issue.  However, I also have my L >display set to turn off instead of running a screensaver because it is a 23P >inch cinema display.  As much as that muhfug cost, I want it to last as long asC >possible and don't see a reason to have it on just for lightshows.r  K The 23" Apple flat display?  Nice.  Mrs. wants me to buy the G5 with one ofl those.  K If the neo-socialistic peoples republic of North America doesn't take everyeK last bit of my money come this April 15th, she may just get her wish.  Roof L needs repair too after Nov. wind storms.  That should cost me almost as muchA as the G5 and 23".  Hmm... computer... dry ceiling... tough call.a   --B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.p -- eK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:40:55 +0000 O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>u6 Subject: Re: What is mystery object in VMS screensaver0 Message-ID: <buriqn$b0r$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   VAXman- wrote:K >>My g4 is a desktop, so battery is not an issue.  However, I also have my nM >>display set to turn off instead of running a screensaver because it is a 23aQ >>inch cinema display.  As much as that muhfug cost, I want it to last as long asfD >>possible and don't see a reason to have it on just for lightshows. >  > M > The 23" Apple flat display?  Nice.  Mrs. wants me to buy the G5 with one ofi > those. > M > If the neo-socialistic peoples republic of North America doesn't take everylM > last bit of my money come this April 15th, she may just get her wish.  Roof N > needs repair too after Nov. wind storms.  That should cost me almost as muchC > as the G5 and 23".  Hmm... computer... dry ceiling... tough call.  >   ( Feed the inner child, you owe it to him.   Regards  Andrew Harrisone > --D > http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityE >                             solutions that others only claim to be.r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.045 ************************