0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 29 Jan 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 56      Contents: Re: Alpha 4100 power supply $ Re: americans at the athens olympics! Re: cURL 7.11.0 available for VMS  Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? Excursion for Windows 2000 Re: Excursion for Windows 20009 f$getsyi("hw_name") v. PWS 500a (was: "ftp server error")  Re: ftp attack Re: ftp server error Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!  Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!! B Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: Mozilla on Alpha question  Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers  Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers = Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers) A RE: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers) A Re: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers) A Re: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers)  Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: stupid backup tricks (long) @ Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsF Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the PresideF Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the PresideF Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the PresideF Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the Preside6 Re: The State of the Union: Lies about a Dishonest War' VAXUS Symposium program v1.0-0 (french) + Re: VAXUS Symposium program v1.0-0 (french) ' Re: X11 via SSH from OpenVMS to Win2000   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 28 Jan 2004 18:45:26 GMTm From: Wilko Bulte,Arnhem - the Netherlands,+31-24-3529162,+31-26-3623823,TZ=WET From: <wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl> $ Subject: Re: Alpha 4100 power supply> Message-ID: <40180346$0$146$e4fe514c@dreader12.news.xs4all.nl>  T In <bv4165$2hg$1@newslocal.mitre.org> lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) writes:  y >Javier Henderson <javier@KJSL.COM> writes in article <86isiy1rte.fsf@skylane.kjsl.com> dated 26 Jan 2004 10:35:25 -0800: C >>I've laid my hands on an Alpha 4100. Very studly. But, it needs a B >>power supply. This is purely for personal use, not for business.  J >FWIW, the Alphaserver 4100s I have used have 3 power supply bays but onlyK >need 2 working power supplies to function.  And they are hot-swappable, so I >if you have 3 and 1 breaks, you can replace it without taking the system  >down.  8 Depends on how many CPUs you have, be careful out there!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:04:19 GMT * From: Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net>- Subject: Re: americans at the athens olympics 6 Message-ID: <0001HW.BC3D55C400154891F00805B0@shawnews>  9 On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 8:22:15 -0800, Very Interesting wrote 9 (in message <NAR7K1HO38014.4321180556@anonymous.poster>):    > Athletes are propaganda too? > < > Umm ... have you ever thought about seeing a psychiatrist? >   F Stop spamming other groups. Why is this so hard for you to understand?   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2004 13:55:54 -06004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)* Subject: Re: cURL 7.11.0 available for VMS3 Message-ID: <TJQ8nVK9Zkr1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <bv710j$sg5$1@news01.intel.com>, Ken Fairfield <My.Full.Name@intel.com> writes:D > My news feed is on the fritz at the moment so I didn't see Marty's > original post: >  > VAXman- wrote: > m >> In article <t6h3HJCZ23NJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:  >>  = >>>The latest version of cURL, 7.11.0, has been released and   >>>is available for download.  >>> 5 >>>The location is http://curl.haxx.se/download.html   >>> @ >>>This zip file contains the cURL object library and standalone? >>>executable compiled for the following OS, DEC C, and OpenSSL  >>>combinations. >>> 5 >>>HW Type  VMS Version   Compiler Vers   SSL Library : >>>--------+-------------+---------------+----------------8 >>>Alpha  | OpenVMS 7.3 | DEC C 6.5-001 | OpenSSL 0.9.7c8 >>>VAX    | OpenVMS 7.2 | DEC C 6.4-003 | OpenSSL 0.9.7c8 >>>IA64   | OpenVMS 8.1 | hp C T7.0-002 | OpenSSL 0.9.7c >>> < >>>For those who don't know what cURL is, here is the blurb  > > > Marty, is there a version/build of this utility that doens't> > require OpenSSL be installed?  I have an application but the7 > OpenSSL requirement would be a significant barrier...  >   ? You shouldn't have to have SSL installed, if you are just using ? the curl.exe standalone program.  If you want to build your own > applications using the cURL library, then you'll need to link $ against the sslib and libcrypto lib.  > I could make a non-SSL version if you want, or you can compile5 it yourself and leave the SSL stuff out of the build.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:19:38 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com># Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? - Message-ID: <4018195A.19876.13CD5C@localhost>   E > I need your feedback - will you find use for this lexical function?  > : > If the response is positive, I will make sure it will be > documented/supported.   D Yes.  Right now, I capture the output of "SHOW LICENSE" and process 
 it.  Yuck!  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:42:55 -0500 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> # Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? 0 Message-ID: <btmdnSY27MeA-IXdRVn-jw@comcast.com>   Guy,  E The only time I ever needed to do anything that your F$LICENSE might  G help with was when a former boss wanted me to find out, for each of 25  D systems, VAX and Alpha, which licenses had the MOD_UNITS option.  I H wrote a gawk (Gnu awk) script to parse the output of SHOW LICENSE/FULL, G wrapped it in the appropriate DCL, ran it, and delivered the output to  H my boss.  It took me the better part of two days to write and debug the G gawk script (I'm not fluent) but I thought it better than trying to do   it by hand.   I Boss man was not crazy, he was trying to develop disaster recovery plans  B and had to be able to run our software on whatever was available; I knowing which licenses had MOD_UNITS and which didn't made sense in that   context.   Guy Peleg wrote:  * >Thank you all for your valuable feedback. > 5 >I'll probably incorporate most of it into F$LICENSE.  >  >Guy< >"Guy Peleg" <guy.peleg@remove_this_hp.com> wrote in message% >news:4017c388@usenet01.boi.hp.com...  >    > 	 >>Hi All,  >>J >>For my own needs I have implemented a new lexical function F$LICENSE. It	 >>returns J >>True if a product is authorized to run on this node and false if it does >>not. >> >>Here is a small example: >>4 >>IPL31> write sys$output f$license("openvms-alpha") >>TRUE >>E >>I need your feedback - will you find use for this lexical function?  >>: >>If the response is positive, I will make sure it will be >>documented/supported.  >> >>Thank you for your feedback. >> >>Guy  >> >> >> >> >>     >> >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:22:10 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net># Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? 6 Message-ID: <40186E52.3CAA9319@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Michael Unger wrote: > ) > On 2004-01-28 15:10, "Guy Peleg" wrote:  > L > > For my own needs I have implemented a new lexical function F$LICENSE. It > > returns L > > True if a product is authorized to run on this node and false if it does > > not. > >  > > Here is a small example: > > 6 > > IPL31> write sys$output f$license("openvms-alpha") > > TRUE > 8 > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$LICENSE("OPENVMS-ALPHA-USER") ... > K > I would expect "16" or "128" or "UNLIMITED" as an reply, not just "TRUE".  > G > > I need your feedback - will you find use for this lexical function?  > 4 > Perhaps an option to request specific data such as > - termination date > - units licensed ("units")< > - units needed for a single user ("activity=constant=...") > 2 > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$LICENSE(license_name, item)  H I'll second that. tO BE USEFUL, F$LICENSE() should return the same info." as SHOW LICENSE, /FULL and /USAGE.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:53:54 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net># Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? 6 Message-ID: <401875C2.94E534D9@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:  >  > Guy, > F > The only time I ever needed to do anything that your F$LICENSE mightH > help with was when a former boss wanted me to find out, for each of 25E > systems, VAX and Alpha, which licenses had the MOD_UNITS option.  I I > wrote a gawk (Gnu awk) script to parse the output of SHOW LICENSE/FULL, H > wrapped it in the appropriate DCL, ran it, and delivered the output toI > my boss.  It took me the better part of two days to write and debug the H > gawk script (I'm not fluent) but I thought it better than trying to do
 > it by hand.   H Wow! Y'know, it might have been faster and easier to just use stuff like@ SEARCH and/or F$LOCATE(), F$ELEMENT(), and others in a DCL proc.   ...or even:    $ PIPE - 	LICENSE LIST/FULL | -/ 	SEARCH SYS$PIPE PRODUCT,MOD_UNITS/OUT=TEMP.TMP ( $ SEARCH TEMP.TMP MOD_UNITS/WINDOW=(1,0)  2 ...would provide something terse, but informative.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:01:14 -0500 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> # Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? 0 Message-ID: <ismdnbw-Qf0dGIXdRVn-jQ@comcast.com>  K I couldn't use PIPE, this was ca. 1997 and VMS/Alpha V6.x or VMS/VAX 5.5-2.   G As for using SEARCH, would you care to try it?   The tool did not seem  H well suited to the job at the time and I still have trouble visualizing  just how it would work.   E Here's what I did.  I'm sure you can duplicate the output using some  I other tools but can you do it in two days or less?  If you don't care to  A execute this mess on your own machine, this lists all the active  F licenses that DO NOT have MOD_UNITS.  When I say lists, it copies the H output of SHOW LICENSE /FULL for each license that meets the criteria.  E It also lists the total licenses, the total active licenses, and the  ( total active licenses without MOD_UNITS.   # MOD_UNITS.AWK  # Richard B. Gilbert # 1-SEP-1997 # * # Find all active licenses in a list that:( #       a. have the string "Active", andA #       b. Do NOT have the string MOD_UNITS in the options field. ' # Use LICENSE LIST /FULL /OUTPUT=XX.TMP  # EDIT /NOCOMMAND XX.TMP. #*s/---------------------------------/^L/whole #*exit #$ GAWK -f mod_units xx.tmp  #  #  BEGIN { 4         FS="\n"         # Field separator is newline2         RS="\f"         # Record separator is <ff>3         ORS="-----------------------------------\n"  }  {++licenses}
 /Active/ {         ++active_licenses           if ($0 !~ /MOD_UNITS/) {         ++no_mod_units         print $0 }} END {          ORS="\n"#         print licenses, " licenses" 1         print active_licenses, " active_licenses" 8         print no_mod_units, "licenses without MOD_UNITS" }    and the DCL wrapper. $! DOIT.COM ' $ EDIT /EDT /NOCOMMAND 'P1'_LICENSE.LIS 0 s/-----------------------------------/<FF>/whole exit/ $ ASSIGN /USER 'P1'_NO_MOD_UNITS.LIS SYS$OUTPUT $ $ GAWK -f mod_units 'P1'_LICENSE.LIS    G I have since plagiarized this script and some of its descendants to do  I some other jobs, none quite so difficult but all somewhiat irksome to do  @ with only native VMS tools.  The two days I spent have paid for  themselves many times over.    David J. Dachtera wrote:   >"Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: >    >  >>Guy, >>F >>The only time I ever needed to do anything that your F$LICENSE mightH >>help with was when a former boss wanted me to find out, for each of 25E >>systems, VAX and Alpha, which licenses had the MOD_UNITS option.  I I >>wrote a gawk (Gnu awk) script to parse the output of SHOW LICENSE/FULL, H >>wrapped it in the appropriate DCL, ran it, and delivered the output toI >>my boss.  It took me the better part of two days to write and debug the H >>gawk script (I'm not fluent) but I thought it better than trying to do
 >>it by hand.  >>     >> > I >Wow! Y'know, it might have been faster and easier to just use stuff like A >SEARCH and/or F$LOCATE(), F$ELEMENT(), and others in a DCL proc.  >  >...or even: > 	 >$ PIPE -  >	LICENSE LIST/FULL | - 0 >	SEARCH SYS$PIPE PRODUCT,MOD_UNITS/OUT=TEMP.TMP) >$ SEARCH TEMP.TMP MOD_UNITS/WINDOW=(1,0)  > 3 >...would provide something terse, but informative.  >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:56:11 +0100 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net># Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? / Message-ID: <4018AE8B.80104F7@sture.homeip.net>    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:  > M > I couldn't use PIPE, this was ca. 1997 and VMS/Alpha V6.x or VMS/VAX 5.5-2.  > H > As for using SEARCH, would you care to try it?   The tool did not seemI > well suited to the job at the time and I still have trouble visualizing  > just how it would work.  > F > Here's what I did.  I'm sure you can duplicate the output using some6 > other tools but can you do it in two days or less?     <snip>  6 Please have a look at my LICENSE_LIST.COM procedure at  z http://groups.google.ch/groups?q=comp.os.vms+license_list.com&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=YHQsD2wWfmJU%40elias.decus.ch&rnum=1   --  
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:28:42 GMT 2 From: "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com># Subject: Excursion for Windows 2000 @ Message-ID: <eQVRb.537$jH6.111@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>   All,  6 I have excursion for NT, and I need the newest version which will run on Windows 2000.   ; The CD I have is "DIGITAL PATHWORKS 32 Version 7.0A" , 1997 0 It is fine for NT, but will not install on 2000.$ Where is the newest version located?   Thanks in advance.   - Bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:52:36 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) ' Subject: Re: Excursion for Windows 2000 3 Message-ID: <EaWRb.13315$9R4.1406@news.cpqcorp.net>   u In article <eQVRb.537$jH6.111@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "William Hymen" <t18_pilot@hotmail.spam.com> writes:   7 :I have excursion for NT, and I need the newest version   :which will run on Windows 2000. : < :The CD I have is "DIGITAL PATHWORKS 32 Version 7.0A" , 19971 :It is fine for NT, but will not install on 2000. % :Where is the newest version located?   D   If you have not already done so, you will want to purchase the kitA   and a license for this and for other similar software packages.   A   Folks with licenses and such have access to a (restricted) FTP  8   download site at HP, where various kits can be pulled.  @   Any PATHWORKS 32 client release V7.2 or later should work withA   Microsoft Windows 2000 -- circa V7.3 or later is current, IIRC.   =   The direct (and subject to change) URL for PATHWORKS 32 is:   *     http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks32/  A   Licensing and ordering information is available at the website.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:41:40 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.orgB Subject: f$getsyi("hw_name") v. PWS 500a (was: "ftp server error")) Message-ID: <04012818413998@antinode.org>   6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>  1 > > alp2 $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "hw_model")  > > 1556 > >  > > What does a real 500au say?  > / > Exactly the same as what you get.  Also note:  > ) > $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "hw_name")  > Digital Personal WorkStation > G > Though the docs to $getsyi say that SYI$_HW_NAME can return up to 60  F > characters, the DPW names seem to be truncated at about 30 for some 	 > reason.       One more subtlety:   5 ALP $ write sys$output ">"+ f$getsyi( "hw_name")+ "<"  >AlphaStation 200 4/233<  6 ALP2 $ write sys$output ">"+ f$getsyi( "hw_name")+ "<" >Digital Personal WorkStation <   D It look as if it's trying to add the model, but comes up with a nullB string instead of "500a[u]".  (And that's exactly _29_ characters, including the terminal space.)  H    Interestingly, longer stuff seems to work.  My XP1000 remains broken,F but according to "http://mvb.saic.com/freeware/info-vax/2002_433.txt":  ,       $ write sys$output f$getsyi("hw_name"),       COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000   That's 38 characters.       According to the Wizard3 ("http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_8577.html"):   H     As for the HW_NAME and HW_MODEL codes, these are returned to OpenVMSF     from the SRM console -- OpenVMS itself does not maintain a list ofG     these codes, and does not attempt to use these SMM codes to enforce G     support.  (OpenVMS does use these codes to locate platform-specific 
     code.)  @ This makes it sound like a firmware problem, and I assume that aB firmware update for a hobbyist's obsolete, unsupported hardware isD unlikely to be a high-priority item on anyone (else's) task list.  IE suppose that there's no secret SRM command to set this sort of thing.   F    Naturally, at start-up, the firmware describes it quite nicely as aH "Personal WorkStation 500au", as having a KZPBA-CX-like Qlogic SCSI cardF is apparently enough to gain the "u" which is missing from the plastic logo.   C    Anyone with contrary experience is welcome to e-mail me to avoid 7 cluttering the usual off-topic traffic with this stuff.   G    On the bright side, the SETI@home rate for this thing (whatever it's ? called) is noticably higher than that for the AlpSta 200 4/233.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:21:14 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)  Subject: Re: ftp attack 3 Message-ID: <_QURb.13303$mK4.4437@news.cpqcorp.net>    In article <d28edccd.0401262114.2494ef53@posting.google.com>, gconstantinides@myrealbox.com (gconstantinides@myrealbox.com) writes:   A :I want to disable unwanted incoming ftp access. But I want to be 2 :able to request outgoing ftp requests to anywere.  F   I would generally use a firewall, if I wished to protect an IP host.  D   I do not believe that general-purpose computing systems make good G   firewalls, simply because of the comparatively management effort and  G   tracking requirements involved -- and the relative costs of mistakes.   G   While it is certainly potentially possible to secure such a host (and H   obviously also advisable), the effort involved in maintaining a systemG   and network security lock-down and the effort of tracking and vetting E   updates, attacks and vulernabilities on a general-purpose operating G   system -- no matter which one -- is far more than the effort involved G   in maintaining a dedicated firewall.  Particularly given that typical C   general-purpose systems tend to see product upgrades, interactive G   users, and far more "churn" than a dedicated firewall would ever see.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:23:20 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> Subject: Re: ftp server error T Message-ID: <craigberry-1D540F.14231928012004@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>  A In article <04012803184350@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org wrote:   . >  as I approach the great switchover to a PWSF > 500a, just because it's not supported hardware, is the following the > best I should expect?  >  > alp2 $ tcpip show version  > A >   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.3 - ECO 2 = >   on a Digital Personal WorkStation  running OpenVMS V7.3-1 ' >                                    ==  > > > I think not.  I expected to see my "500a", supported or not. > / > alp2 $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "hw_model")  > 1556 >  > What does a real 500au say?   - Exactly the same as what you get.  Also note:   ' $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "hw_name")  Digital Personal WorkStation  E Though the docs to $getsyi say that SYI$_HW_NAME can return up to 60  D characters, the DPW names seem to be truncated at about 30 for some  reason.    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2004 15:08:25 -0800& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0401281508.78063d07@posting.google.com>   s spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<b096a4ee.0401280619.3a905404@posting.google.com>... m > jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) wrote in message news:<cc5619f2.0401261610.66b12d82@posting.google.com>...  > [...]  >   I > > (PS to Chi-town afficionados... its the only huge city I've more than J > > briefly visited; didn't like NYC on the one trip either, so don't take > > it personally).  >  > When did you visit NYC?   ? 1991, work trip, 2.5 days on the ground, mostly at the customer 	 location.    Rich  C BTW sorry if this shows up twice; google is pretending to run under  wintel right now.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:23:09 GMT , From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!0 Message-ID: <NnYRb.172474$I06.1717418@attbi_s01>  J I attended the last VMS symposia back in Nov 2003, kinda next door to ZK0.J Time very well spent imo.  Sue organized it.  VMS engineering was there in5 force along with VMS customers from across the globe.     K "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message 0 news:40171A57.65C3EAC0@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net...# > VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  > > A > > In article <b3531425.0401271113.2b8537b3@posting.google.com>, ( twnews@kittles.com (Thomas Wirt) writes:D > > >If Encompass does not hurry up and announce details on its FallB > > >conference there won't be one, IMHO.  I would rather go to an > > F > > I'm going to the VMS Symposium... bugger the Encompass conference. > # > EEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!!  >  > --   > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:55:20 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40186808.137C55F6@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: >  > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<40171956.26D4421B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... > > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > > l > > > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<4JzpMrRbjo9c@eisner.encompasserve.org>...v > > > > In article <b096a4ee.0401270819.599ed618@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > > > > (DJD wrote:)K > > > > >> Murder capital of the U.S. because guns have been outlawed here; R > > > > >> therefore, only outlaws have guns, and the outlaws know this and flaunt > > > > >> it. > > > 9 > > > Additional comment!: Well, the cops have guns, too!  > >  > > Like I said: > > , > > > > >> therefore, only outlaws have guns >  > Maybe in Chicago!!!    Plug into the news, chief!    H The cops are even second-guessing the Fire Department in the Cook CountyE building fire (six fatalities, the coroner has ruled them homicides). G The police department thinks there may have been a valid reason to have G gasoline stored in a room full of paper files on the twelfth floor of a  "high rise" office building.*   @ Even if they are right, that may not be arson, but sure would beD criminal negligence (in MY book, at least!). Flammable fumes presentF when a flourescent fixture just happened to fail catastrophically. Why+ were the flammable fumes present at all??!!    *:A The anti-terror squad should have jumped on that like the federal C prosecutors should have jumped on Daley when he confessed with full  media coverage.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:58:07 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <401868AF.588FFA1A@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: >  > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<401718DA.4D171563@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... > > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > >  > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<4015B74C.3692AF11@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... > > > [snip]I > > > > The mayor has blatantly defied the FAA and federal prosecutors by O > > > > not only vandalizing an airport, but then purloining the media to boast A > > > > of his crime and his "teflon shield" against prosecution.  > > > + > > > The mayor vandalized an airport? Huh?  > > ; > > Well publicized in the media nationwide. Google for it.  > - > Well, I think *THAT* might be your problem!    Darmok, his eyes open!   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:05:03 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40186A4F.A865FB3F@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Bob Koehler wrote: > p > In article <b096a4ee.0401270819.599ed618@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > > ) > > The mayor vandalized an airport? Huh?  > C >    The mayor of Chicago closed Meigs Field and physically blocked > >    the runway in the middle of the night in violation of FAAD >    regulations and past promises, while aircraft were still parked >    on the field. > D >    Somehow it was discovered there were no penalties in place that >    applied to the mayor.    9 I'd *REALLY* like to have someone explain that one to me!   G ...or is it similar to the immunity from prosecution that the President  enjoys in most cases?   - > This despite the mayor being a Democrat and K >    the federal administration being Republican.  The FAA has subsequently  >    updated the regulations.   G Damn! That means we blew it! The suburban mayors could have ordered the G "closing" of O'Hare for the same (and somewhat stronger) reasons (since E large aircraft can inflict more damage, as we saw on 11-Sep-2001) and , would(should) have enjoyed similar immunity.  G >    The FAA issued temporary permission for the airplanes still on the 6 >    field to depart by using the taxiway to take off.  ? Sorry to be so down on the town where I make a living, but this G administration is a hair's breadth away from being another Capone-style @ crime syndicate. Capone died believing he was providing a wanted: product, jobs, even public service by way of philanthropy.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:06:16 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40186A98.D0228695@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > x > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<b6wSuFqmvUjs@eisner.encompasserve.org>...r > > In article <b096a4ee.0401270819.599ed618@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > > > + > > > The mayor vandalized an airport? Huh?  > > E > >    The mayor of Chicago closed Meigs Field and physically blocked @ > >    the runway in the middle of the night in violation of FAAF > >    regulations and past promises, while aircraft were still parked > >    on the field. > > F > >    Somehow it was discovered there were no penalties in place thatI > >    applied to the mayor.  This despite the mayor being a Democrat and M > >    the federal administration being Republican.  The FAA has subsequently  > >    updated the regulations.  > > I > >    The FAA issued temporary permission for the airplanes still on the 8 > >    field to depart by using the taxiway to take off. > ; > So there's no room for common sense when it comes to law.   E Well, there's always room for common sense, especially when one finds G one's self in a pickle due to criminal activity that remains unpunished  to this day.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:13:02 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40186C2E.820C257B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Gary McCready wrote: > w > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote in message news:<OF8D7A1CB4.BC81F993-ON85256E27.005FB06C-85256E27.006019EF@metso.com>... O > > This appears to be the hp/Interex-sponsored convention, albeit with OpenVMS  > > content. > C > Not only that, but HP might not even be an "official sponsor", at  > least not with content.  >  > So,  > - No encompass "content" > - No Hp "content" ' > -An HPWorld without HP participating?  > F > Might be the "trade show with mainly vendor-sponsored talks" type of > show.  >  > Anybody know any different?    Here's the WHOIS record, FWIW:   Registrant:  Interex (HPWORLD3-DOM) 1192 Borregas Ave  Sunnyvale, CA 94089  US   Domain Name: HPWORLD.COM   Administrative Contact: 6 Lancaster, Terry (tln113) lancaste at  INTEREX dot ORG Interex  1192 Borregas Avenue Sunnyvale, CA 94089  US 4087434652 fax: 4087470947   Technical Contact:+ Sims, Jeff (JSX561) sims at INTEREX dot ORG  Interex  1192 Borregas Ave. Sunnyvale, CA 94089  US 408-743-4626 fax: 408-747-0947   Record expires on 27-Jun-2005. Record created on 28-Jun-1997.2 Database last updated on 28-Jan-2004 21:00:50 EST.   Domain servers in listed order:y  " SPECTRA2.INTEREX.ORG 198.151.251.2# IWORKS.INTERWORKS.ORG 128.255.18.10 & SCA02.SEC.DNS.EXODUS.NET 209.1.235.120     -- E David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:16:54 -0600h@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40186D16.99510E8A@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Clay M. Denton" wrote:- > B > Currently, this is an Interex event - not an HP/Interex event... > G > Encompass should have some announcements in the next couple of weeks.c  F Maybe I'll submit these sessions for the Encompass Symposium as well.    Hey, couldn't hurt, eh?    --   David J. Dachteraw dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:15:26 -0600r@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40186CBE.D376BD64@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Dave Gudewicz wrote: > L > I attended the last VMS symposia back in Nov 2003, kinda next door to ZK0.L > Time very well spent imo.  Sue organized it.  VMS engineering was there in7 > force along with VMS customers from across the globe.   F The "EEEEEEEWWWWWW" was for the "bugger" reference. I would have lovedA to see the hp symposium last fall. Had twit problems at work that.! precluded many rational dealings.    --   David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:10:51 -0500o3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>V( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!0 Message-ID: <f4mdndltd5ws5IXd4p2dnA@comcast.com>  F The biggest difference between government and organized crime is that , organized crime is usually better organized!     David J. Dachtera wrote:   >Bob Koehler wrote:P >  r > p >>In article <b096a4ee.0401270819.599ed618@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >>     >>( >>>The mayor vandalized an airport? Huh?	 >>>      e >>>mC >>   The mayor of Chicago closed Meigs Field and physically blockedr> >>   the runway in the middle of the night in violation of FAAD >>   regulations and past promises, while aircraft were still parked >>   on the field. >>D >>   Somehow it was discovered there were no penalties in place that >>   applied to the mayor.   >>     >> >s: >I'd *REALLY* like to have someone explain that one to me! >iH >...or is it similar to the immunity from prosecution that the President >enjoys in most cases? >  >  : >G- >>This despite the mayor being a Democrat and+K >>   the federal administration being Republican.  The FAA has subsequentlyR >>   updated the regulations.s >>     >> >4H >Damn! That means we blew it! The suburban mayors could have ordered theH >"closing" of O'Hare for the same (and somewhat stronger) reasons (sinceF >large aircraft can inflict more damage, as we saw on 11-Sep-2001) and- >would(should) have enjoyed similar immunity.i >y >  s > G >>   The FAA issued temporary permission for the airplanes still on thee6 >>   field to depart by using the taxiway to take off. >>     >> >I@ >Sorry to be so down on the town where I make a living, but thisH >administration is a hair's breadth away from being another Capone-styleA >crime syndicate. Capone died believing he was providing a wanted ; >product, jobs, even public service by way of philanthropy.  >- >  - >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:08:20 -0600e@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: hpWorld-2004 - in Chicago!!6 Message-ID: <40188734.916D698F@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:  > G > The biggest difference between government and organized crime is thata. > organized crime is usually better organized!   ...and more profitable!?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:30:29 +0800., From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap - Message-ID: <8765ewgc3e.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:   = > 	Itanium will be priced at Xeon prices, that is a fact that>? > 	Fister promises.  For years predictions that mainframes willm= > 	be killed off and yet they linger.  I believe that Itanium ; > 	will pass mainframes on the performance curve and be fara< > 	cheaper.  If that doesn't drive a stake in the mainframe, > 	nothing will.  E Almost everything passed mainframes for CPU performance years ago. IO ; performance is another matter, and only some get up there. S  = The idea that the Itanic will kill off mainframes in general,r2 and IBM's zSeries is just too ludicrous for words.   -- +< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.p@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:58:36 -0500s* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapr) Message-ID: <40181469.788A0DBE@istop.com>l   Robert Klute wrote: J > Intel has a history of saying that their new chip is for servers and notI > the desktop.  I remember they did that when the 80286 came out and then   > again when the 80386 came out.  I Intel, Carly and Curly have a history of saying IA64 would be a low cost, F large volume, industry standard chip that would drive down the cost ofN computing and avoid the development costs of a high end low volume proprietary chip for enterprise systems.  M What those statement really meant was that enterprise systems could piggypackaN onto the wintel market to benefit from the lower costs of high volume industryK standard chip architecture (which si also available from multiple sources).n  H But so far, IA64 has not exhibited any of the qualities that we had beenD promised. And while all chips are late, this one has been very late.  H Instead of writing an 8086 emulator for IA64, perhaps they should do theB opposite: write an IA64  emulator that runs on AMD's 64 bit 8086s.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2004 13:58:06 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eK Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapg3 Message-ID: <TZ7tLfrfY4li@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  \ In article <8765ewgc3e.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:r > > >> 	Itanium will be priced at Xeon prices, that is a fact that@ >> 	Fister promises.  For years predictions that mainframes will> >> 	be killed off and yet they linger.  I believe that Itanium< >> 	will pass mainframes on the performance curve and be far= >> 	cheaper.  If that doesn't drive a stake in the mainframe,  >> 	nothing will.  > G > Almost everything passed mainframes for CPU performance years ago. IOl= > performance is another matter, and only some get up there. a >   5 	Right.  IO to scale for sure.  Take a clue from EV7.u  ? > The idea that the Itanic will kill off mainframes in general,s4 > and IBM's zSeries is just too ludicrous for words.    9 	If Itanium hits Xeon in price, surely the other big OEMseA 	can't continue to charge large $$$ for their CPUs  (for instancehA 	8-way Power4 MCMs list for $275000 out at tpc.org).  It wouldn't>C 	matter who or how mainframes become even less attractive, I'm justo@ 	proposing Itanium would be a driver in sucking high margins outD 	of hihg-end CPU prices.  If that occurs, it would impact mainframesB 	and of course others that think they can continue to charge large 	dollars for CPUs.     				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000>O From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>-K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapd0 Message-ID: <bv90fp$t8t$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Robert Klute wrote: G > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:24:20 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >  >  > D >>The reasons for abandoning IA64 on the desktop are pretty obvious. >>: >>1.	Its too hot, some of the professional Computer gaming; >>	people may be happy to lug an external cooler arround to 8 >>	cope with the overclocked CPu they are using but most >>	desktop users arn't.  >  > G > My zx2000 didn't come with an external cooler.  Do I need to complain  > that I didn't get one? >   4 You zx2000 is hardly a desktop system its a deskside, tower ~19x11x19 (inches) and quite a big one at that.  4 It has a maximum power requirement of 650 watts with fans to match.  ' Compare that with an HP D530 4x13x15 in ' maximum power requirement of 185 watts.t     > < >>2.	Its too expensive, you need to be able to produce a ~1K7 >>	or less desktop and you cannot do that with Itanium.r >  > G > Why?  Every IA-32 workstation I have priced out costs a lot more thanrG > $1k, once you configure more than the barebones teaser configuration.n >   7 The z2000 with a CPU that can compete ish with the IA32-5 costs ~5K with 1 GB of RAM and a 1.4 GHZ 1.5 MB cache07 Itanium II. I say Ish because it isn't a fast processorM+ compared with IA32 or Opteron except on FP.N  5 The D530 with a 3.2 GHZ processor, 1 GB of RAM etc ise7 $1300 and thats just shopping from HP, Dell are cheaper 7 and its faster than your z2000 on Int by a wide margin.E   Integer SPECint  1261 for the x86 vs 824n   FP is better SPECfp  1267 for the x86 vs 1444  3 Since what most people use on corporate desktops is 9 integer based you are looking at a huge price performanceO7 dissadvantage for the Itanium based system for the appsn that matter to customers.u   > > >>3.	Its not integrated enough. It has onchip cache but cannot6 >>	hope to compete price wise with Opteron/SPARC which6 >>	have that plus memory controlers and interconnects. >>@ >>4.	It has a vanishingly tiny software portfolio and a terrible9 >>	x86 emulation story (even when HP introduce the faster.8 >>	x86 support). While it may be possible to control the< >>	software stack on a server it becomes much more difficult> >>	on the desktop and any Itanium based system is always going> >>	to be suffering from the it doesn't run on Itanium problem. >  > I > I guess that is Intel's curse with Itanium - it is continually compared.> > to IA-32 when it was designed to compete with non IA-32 RISCB > architectures.  SPARC doesn't run x86 code and no seems to care. >   < We don't have to we have the 2and largest SW portfolio after8 WIN32/x86 on SPARC it would be nice to get access to x869 SW portfolio as well but in the server space SPARC is nots/ short of apps, the opposite in fact of Itanium.e  ? And if you are looking at a desktop platform then having accessl* to the x86 SW catalogue is very important.     > = >>5.	The mid term solution to the heat/cost issue (dearfield)s8 >>	sacrifices performance to reduce heat and cost making< >>	Itanium even less competitive compared with x86 or x86-64 >>	based systems.l >>C >>6.	Corporate desktops are a huge support hole, having to maintaint> >>	an entirely separate application tree for Itanium is likely= >>	to disuade many corporates from moving, x86-64 for exampleo >>	does not have this issue. >> >>Q >>>Had Intel not said that IA64 wasn't going to be for desktop, it might have hadEO >>>a chance at making IA64 industry standard, especially if AMD and others weregL >>>allowed to copy it. (multiple source is an important factor when defining >>>"industry standard"). >  > J > Intel has a history of saying that their new chip is for servers and notI > the desktop.  I remember they did that when the 80286 came out and then   > again when the 80386 came out.  > Except this time Intel said that Itanium is for everything and= then when the reality of their situation slapped them hard inn; the face they backtracked to a slightly more possible claim! for Itanium being a server CPU.d   regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:08:32 GMTr3 From: Robert Klute <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com>nK Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapD8 Message-ID: <hd6g105g0ff74vmlucdfjauohvmklveq15@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyM. <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:   >Robert Klute wrote:H >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:24:20 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:i >> k >> t >>  E >>>The reasons for abandoning IA64 on the desktop are pretty obvious.m >>>s; >>>1.	Its too hot, some of the professional Computer gaming.< >>>	people may be happy to lug an external cooler arround to9 >>>	cope with the overclocked CPu they are using but mostt >>>	desktop users arn't. >>   >>  H >> My zx2000 didn't come with an external cooler.  Do I need to complain >> that I didn't get one?r >>   >k5 >You zx2000 is hardly a desktop system its a desksideU- >tower ~19x11x19 (inches) and quite a big onei	 >at that.v >d5 >It has a maximum power requirement of 650 watts witho >fans to match.t >n( >Compare that with an HP D530 4x13x15 in( >maximum power requirement of 185 watts.  G Oh, let's compare it to another workstation, say the SunBlade 2000.  It = is 18x10x24 and has a maximum power requirement of 700 watts.F    8 >The z2000 with a CPU that can compete ish with the IA326 >costs ~5K with 1 GB of RAM and a 1.4 GHZ 1.5 MB cache8 >Itanium II. I say Ish because it isn't a fast processor, >compared with IA32 or Opteron except on FP.  - Let's see the 1.2GHz SunBlade 2000 is ~$7K.  -   >-6 >The D530 with a 3.2 GHZ processor, 1 GB of RAM etc is8 >$1300 and thats just shopping from HP, Dell are cheaper8 >and its faster than your z2000 on Int by a wide margin. >@ >Integer SPECint >1261 for the x86 vs 824  D I don't know where you got the 824 and 1444 numbers, I couldn't find them on the spec site.  * SPECint Peak for the 1.5GHz zx6000 is 1315* SPECint Base for the 1.0GHz zx6000 is  8070 SPECint Peak for the 1.2GHz SunBlade 2000 is 722   >  >FP is better SPECfp >1267 for the x86 vs 1444  >.  ) SPECfp Peak for the 1.5GHz zx6000 is 2106 ) SPECfp Peak for the 1.0Ghz zx6000 is 1356o0 SPECfp Peak for the 1.2GHz SunBlade 2000 is 1118  4 >Since what most people use on corporate desktops is: >integer based you are looking at a huge price performance8 >dissadvantage for the Itanium based system for the apps >that matter to customers. >- >> -? >>>3.	Its not integrated enough. It has onchip cache but cannot 7 >>>	hope to compete price wise with Opteron/SPARC whicho7 >>>	have that plus memory controlers and interconnects.t >>>tA >>>4.	It has a vanishingly tiny software portfolio and a terriblet: >>>	x86 emulation story (even when HP introduce the faster9 >>>	x86 support). While it may be possible to control thef= >>>	software stack on a server it becomes much more difficulto? >>>	on the desktop and any Itanium based system is always going-? >>>	to be suffering from the it doesn't run on Itanium problem.. >> m >> fJ >> I guess that is Intel's curse with Itanium - it is continually compared? >> to IA-32 when it was designed to compete with non IA-32 RISCeC >> architectures.  SPARC doesn't run x86 code and no seems to care.p >> m >r= >We don't have to we have the 2and largest SW portfolio aftero9 >WIN32/x86 on SPARC it would be nice to get access to x86 : >SW portfolio as well but in the server space SPARC is not0 >short of apps, the opposite in fact of Itanium. >e@ >And if you are looking at a desktop platform then having access+ >to the x86 SW catalogue is very important.o    @ But, I run Linux on my workstation.  I have lots of applicationsG available to me.  Of course, if I wanted to I could run Windows 2003 orw HP-UX 11.23.     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:59:13 -0500w* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapf2 Message-ID: <OOidnSHAeM9Rx4XdRVn_iw@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Mt8+C103MNbx@eisner.encompasserve.org...-4 > In article <40178569.6A96BAD0@istop.com>, JF Mezei# <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> writes:t   ...V  L > > Will it take Intel another 3 years to produce a version of IA64 that can beI > > considered competitive enough to dethrone the 8086 ? Heck, that wouldE meanI > > that IA64 would be 10 years late in its true introduction to the reala world. > >4 >0C > It won't take that long.  The follow-on to Madison with dual-coreW > will be high performing.  I That remains to be seen.  I believe you were touting the wonderfulness ofrJ Prescott for quite a while before it became clear that the 90 nm. PrescottC offers only approximately equal performance to the existing 130 nm.lL Northwood P4 - while requiring a bit more power to achieve even that result.  K If the same is true for the 90 nm. Montecito (compared with today's 130 nm.yL Madison), Montecito won't offer any performance boost at all, and won't evenJ equal Madison's performance unless one of the Montecito cores is disabled.F Even if Intel's Montecito process doesn't suffer the problems that itsH Prescott process has, you still likely won't be able to run *both* cores concurrently at full speed.   (   It does appear that it will be 3 yearsG > until IA64 changes the industry (i.e. high performance at Xeon cost -l > from 1 CPU to 128 CPUs).  K Perhaps you could be more specific.  I don't know what Intel's Itanic plans0L beyond Montecito are save for Tanglewood (now named something else beginningK with T - Tukwila?  Titwillow?).  And Tanglewood sounds as if its *per core*oJ performance will only be about the same as Madison's, though there'll be 8F cores on the chip (last semi-official rumor I heard, anyway:  8 cores,- overall chip performance 7x that of Madison).r  F Since Xeon's performance already meets or exceeds Madison's, and sinceH Xeon's performance had *better* continue to increase (unless it wants toL cede the high-performance low-end server space to Opteron), it doesn't soundJ as if any Itanic will be per-core-competitive with x86 for the foreseeableK future - unless there's another Itanic flavor besides Tanglewood coming outwJ in 2006-7 specifically aimed at better per-core performance (if so, I'd be interested in any details).r   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:14:43 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapn2 Message-ID: <M_KdnS6xY-vyw4XdRVn-gQ@metrocast.net>  @ "Robert Klute" <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com> wrote in message2 news:hd6g105g0ff74vmlucdfjauohvmklveq15@4ax.com...G > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancys0 > <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >h > >Robert Klute wrote:J > >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:24:20 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy3 > >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  > >> > >> > >>G > >>>The reasons for abandoning IA64 on the desktop are pretty obvious.5 > >>> = > >>>1. Its too hot, some of the professional Computer gaming1> > >>> people may be happy to lug an external cooler arround to; > >>> cope with the overclocked CPu they are using but most  > >>> desktop users arn't. > >> > >>J > >> My zx2000 didn't come with an external cooler.  Do I need to complain > >> that I didn't get one?n > >> > >e7 > >You zx2000 is hardly a desktop system its a desksideo/ > >tower ~19x11x19 (inches) and quite a big one  > >at that.l > > 7 > >It has a maximum power requirement of 650 watts withn > >fans to match.e > >u* > >Compare that with an HP D530 4x13x15 in* > >maximum power requirement of 185 watts. >mE > Oh, let's compare it to another workstation, say the SunBlade 2000.c  A Why?  This discussion was about Itanic on the desktop, not Itanic G workstations.  Once you realize that, most of what you've said (and sayd here) becomes irrelevant.      It? > is 18x10x24 and has a maximum power requirement of 700 watts.  >a >,: > >The z2000 with a CPU that can compete ish with the IA328 > >costs ~5K with 1 GB of RAM and a 1.4 GHZ 1.5 MB cache: > >Itanium II. I say Ish because it isn't a fast processor. > >compared with IA32 or Opteron except on FP. >y- > Let's see the 1.2GHz SunBlade 2000 is ~$7K.    Same comment as above.   >  > >a8 > >The D530 with a 3.2 GHZ processor, 1 GB of RAM etc is: > >$1300 and thats just shopping from HP, Dell are cheaper: > >and its faster than your z2000 on Int by a wide margin. > >/ > >Integer SPECint > >1261 for the x86 vs 824 >sF > I don't know where you got the 824 and 1444 numbers, I couldn't find > them on the spec site.  I Most browsers have a 'find on this page' feature that could help you (the:J scores are those achieved by a Dell workstation, using the 1.4 GHz, 1.5 MBH L3 cache Itanic that Andrew described).  There are other more useful andL powerful ways to find interesting SPEC relationships (SPECMINE at ?Ace's? is# one, though I've not used it much).    >r, > SPECint Peak for the 1.5GHz zx6000 is 1315  G I suspect you'll find that using that version of the chip drives up thel price noticeably.l  , > SPECint Base for the 1.0GHz zx6000 is  8072 > SPECint Peak for the 1.2GHz SunBlade 2000 is 722  K Once again, this discussion relates to the ability of Itanic to replace x86 I in desktops:  the performance of SPARCs has no relevance whatsoever here.p   >d > >o > >FP is better SPECfp > >1267 for the x86 vs 1444" > >  >6+ > SPECfp Peak for the 1.5GHz zx6000 is 2106l   Same price comment as above.   ...   B > >And if you are looking at a desktop platform then having access- > >to the x86 SW catalogue is very important.$ >_ >EB > But, I run Linux on my workstation.  I have lots of applications > available to me.  K When Linux becomes the standard for desktops, that will have some relevance- to this discussion.s   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:13:36 GMT13 From: Robert Klute <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com>iK Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap.8 Message-ID: <vnog10528ogbv407f35ktdiidqvq8mos1l@4ax.com>  H On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:14:43 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   > A >"Robert Klute" <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com> wrote in message 3 >news:hd6g105g0ff74vmlucdfjauohvmklveq15@4ax.com...eH >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy1 >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  >> >> >Robert Klute wrote:cK >> >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:24:20 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyr4 >> >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: >> >>- >> >>- >> >> H >> >>>The reasons for abandoning IA64 on the desktop are pretty obvious. >> >>>> >> >>>1. Its too hot, some of the professional Computer gaming? >> >>> people may be happy to lug an external cooler arround toa< >> >>> cope with the overclocked CPu they are using but most >> >>> desktop users arn't.M >> >>e >> >>aK >> >> My zx2000 didn't come with an external cooler.  Do I need to complaind >> >> that I didn't get one? >> >>A >> >8 >> >You zx2000 is hardly a desktop system its a deskside0 >> >tower ~19x11x19 (inches) and quite a big one >> >at that. >> >8 >> >It has a maximum power requirement of 650 watts with >> >fans to match. >> >+ >> >Compare that with an HP D530 4x13x15 int+ >> >maximum power requirement of 185 watts.  >>F >> Oh, let's compare it to another workstation, say the SunBlade 2000. > B >Why?  This discussion was about Itanic on the desktop, not ItanicH >workstations.  Once you realize that, most of what you've said (and say >here) becomes irrelevant.  D Workstations are "desktop" systems. They are not office systems, butG they are desktop systems.  It is where you find Itanium on the desktop.,H The Itanium is a server processor, like PA-RISC, Alpha, SPARC, Power. ItH should be compared to systems based on those chips.  The only reason for1 comparing it to IA-32 is that Intel makes both.  a  H Andrew was comparing the size and max power consumption of a workstationH with a desktop system.  Turns out his company's workstation turns out toE be of similar size and power consumption.  Price is in the ball park,.H depending on the configuration.   If he wanted to compare an IA-32 basedG HP system with similar function and features then he should have choseno a system like the xw4100.  l  9 >> >The D530 with a 3.2 GHZ processor, 1 GB of RAM etc ise; >> >$1300 and thats just shopping from HP, Dell are cheaper ; >> >and its faster than your z2000 on Int by a wide margin.  >> > >> >Integer SPECint  >> >1261 for the x86 vs 824i >>G >> I don't know where you got the 824 and 1444 numbers, I couldn't find  >> them on the spec site.o >aJ >Most browsers have a 'find on this page' feature that could help you (theK >scores are those achieved by a Dell workstation, using the 1.4 GHz, 1.5 MBlI >L3 cache Itanic that Andrew described).  There are other more useful andiM >powerful ways to find interesting SPEC relationships (SPECMINE at ?Ace's? ise$ >one, though I've not used it much).  B Unless everything runs in cache the memory controller chip makes a< difference.  The Dell workstation a valid comparison point.   @ For example, the Dell 1.5 GHz SPECint Peak is 1099.  16% slower.3 The Dell 1.5 GHz SPECfp Peak is 1875. 11% slower.  aF Whether that is chipset, compiler, or something, I don't know; but, it8 does point out that using the Dell numbers is not valid.  - >> SPECint Peak for the 1.5GHz zx6000 is 1315o >sH >I suspect you'll find that using that version of the chip drives up the >price noticeably. >.- >> SPECint Base for the 1.0GHz zx6000 is  807:3 >> SPECint Peak for the 1.2GHz SunBlade 2000 is 722- >-L >Once again, this discussion relates to the ability of Itanic to replace x86J >in desktops:  the performance of SPARCs has no relevance whatsoever here.  F I, personally, wouldn't buy an Itanium, or a PA-RISC, or a SPARC, or aG Alpha, based system to replace an x86 based system unless it offered meOH a feature that I couldn't get on the x86 based system.  That could be an@ OS I needed to run specific software, or memory requirements, or reliability, or whatever.M   >> >FP is better SPECfpg >> >1267 for the x86 vs 1444 >> > >>, >> SPECfp Peak for the 1.5GHz zx6000 is 2106 >  >Same price comment as above.d >l >... >oC >> >And if you are looking at a desktop platform then having accesst. >> >to the x86 SW catalogue is very important. >> >>C >> But, I run Linux on my workstation.  I have lots of applications  >> available to me.  > L >When Linux becomes the standard for desktops, that will have some relevance >to this discussion.  ? The Itanium is used in a workstation.  Linux is a common OS for 
 workstations.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:09:20 -0500w* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheape2 Message-ID: <oLWdnXo-67TR5IXdRVn-jQ@metrocast.net>  @ "Robert Klute" <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com> wrote in message2 news:vnog10528ogbv407f35ktdiidqvq8mos1l@4ax.com...J > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:14:43 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >E > >dC > >"Robert Klute" <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com> wrote in message 5 > >news:hd6g105g0ff74vmlucdfjauohvmklveq15@4ax.com...lJ > >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:53:45 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy3 > >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:r > >> > >> >Robert Klute wrote:.A > >> >> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:24:20 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUKc Consultancya6 > >> >> <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote: > >> >>i > >> >>e > >> >> J > >> >>>The reasons for abandoning IA64 on the desktop are pretty obvious. > >> >>>@ > >> >>>1. Its too hot, some of the professional Computer gamingA > >> >>> people may be happy to lug an external cooler arround tou> > >> >>> cope with the overclocked CPu they are using but most > >> >>> desktop users arn't.d > >> >>e > >> >> D > >> >> My zx2000 didn't come with an external cooler.  Do I need to complain > >> >> that I didn't get one? > >> >>a > >> >: > >> >You zx2000 is hardly a desktop system its a deskside2 > >> >tower ~19x11x19 (inches) and quite a big one > >> >at that. > >> >: > >> >It has a maximum power requirement of 650 watts with > >> >fans to match. > >> >- > >> >Compare that with an HP D530 4x13x15 ini- > >> >maximum power requirement of 185 watts.C > >>H > >> Oh, let's compare it to another workstation, say the SunBlade 2000. > >cD > >Why?  This discussion was about Itanic on the desktop, not ItanicJ > >workstations.  Once you realize that, most of what you've said (and say > >here) becomes irrelevant. >d% > Workstations are "desktop" systems.-  F Since you clearly have not a clue about what this discussion is about,I continuing it would be pointless.  I won't even comment on the balance of / your post - which you should consider merciful.O   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2004 21:49:13 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eK Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap03 Message-ID: <yvxCHsCtYZWm@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  _ In article <OOidnSHAeM9Rx4XdRVn_iw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message  H >> until IA64 changes the industry (i.e. high performance at Xeon cost - >> from 1 CPU to 128 CPUs).  > M > Perhaps you could be more specific.  I don't know what Intel's Itanic plans N > beyond Montecito are save for Tanglewood (now named something else beginning# > with T - Tukwila?  Titwillow?).  a   	Tukwila  * http://news.com.com/2100-1006-5129242.html  O Tukwila is a town in Washington about 15 minutes away from Seattle. The mayor'sA name is Steven Mullet. i  L > performance will only be about the same as Madison's, though there'll be 8H > cores on the chip (last semi-official rumor I heard, anyway:  8 cores,/ > overall chip performance 7x that of Madison).e  2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/34855.html  M "In three years time, Intel expects the performance of its Itanium chip to beDN about 7 times that of the Madison product. With Tukwila - formerly Tanglewood,F Intel will place twice as many cores on the chip as it does Xeon chipsH available at the time. This Tukwila design done by former Alpha folks is3 Intel's major hope for reviving the Itanium line. ":   	Twice as many cores as Xeon.    > H > Since Xeon's performance already meets or exceeds Madison's, and sinceJ > Xeon's performance had *better* continue to increase (unless it wants toN > cede the high-performance low-end server space to Opteron), it doesn't soundL > as if any Itanic will be per-core-competitive with x86 for the foreseeableM > future - unless there's another Itanic flavor besides Tanglewood coming outcL > in 2006-7 specifically aimed at better per-core performance (if so, I'd be > interested in any details).g >   C 	Xeon performance should increase substantially if they are talking ? 	about having 4 cores ( Tukwila / 2 ).  Whether that data pointO* 	has substance, I haven't tracked it down.  @ 	I guess what I am getting at is if Fister tells us like it will 	be:  * http://news.com.com/2100-1006-5140486.html  H The Santa Clara, Calif.-based chipmaker is working on chipsets and otherH products and technologies that will make an Itanium-based server no moreL expensive than a similar machine powered by its Xeon chip by 2007, said MikeE Fister, senior vice president of the server products group at Intel. o  M "There is a projection that says that Itanium and our 64-bit technology is so L powerful that someday it could kind of obfuscate Xeon" in the second half ofL the decade, Fister said. "It allows companies who have (Itanium) at the high6 end of the line to use it on lower-end applications."   L He added that Xeon will remain "robust through the middle of the decade" and live alongside Itanium.    ...o  L Tukwila, formerly Tanglewood, a version of the Itanium that will be releasedM after 2005, will feature a number of chip cores on the same piece of silicon.:M Although Tukwila will have a large cache, the chip cores will be smaller than.: Xeon cores, making the chip somewhat comparable in price.   > 	Itanium prices will get cheaper.  Makes sense too that memoryB 	controllers and network switches are lifted and tweeked and stuckA 	on-die for Tukwila.  Dell will just have to cable them together.e- 	That may be a frightening thought - if true.r  E 	Oh, being specific on 1 to 128 CPUs... read somewhere that HP talks nG 	about doubling CPU count from 64 to 128.  Fister hints 4-way and under-" 	Itaniums will be getting cheaper:  O "We are going to evolve the line for breadth," Fister said. "There is no reasonuJ it has to be constrained" in the four-processor and more server market, he added. O  A 	To do that, server costs must get down to Xeon levels and we cans> 	click on Dell to see what that means in the 1 to 4 CPU space.   				RobS   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:40:03 GMTs" From: Robert Klute <news@klute.us>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapt8 Message-ID: <j23h105ihrgccrgh0sqffhipp6t9vi3f6u@4ax.com>  H On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:09:20 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:     >wG >Since you clearly have not a clue about what this discussion is about,eJ >continuing it would be pointless.  I won't even comment on the balance of0 >your post - which you should consider merciful. >e    H First, I make the mistake of replying to a flippant Andrew Harrison, nowG I have to suffer a dismissive Bill Todd.  I do know what the discussionmC is about.  In a nutshell, Intel revealed its long term strategy forrF eventually bringing Itanium to the desktop and being able to phase outD IA-32.  This involves lower the price of the Itanium chip, improvingF performance beyond what IA-32 will be able to deliver, having a commonF support chipset to make the transition easier for board manufacturers,E and making sure that there are SDKs simplify the software transition.l9 This won't happen tomorrow, more in the 3 - 5 year range.s  B As for my previous posts, they were in direct response to Andrew'sG comments about the current Itanium line, which is a server chip and not H a desktop chip.  My referencing SPARC was to point out that a comparableH system from the company Andrew works for had similar qualities, that was all.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:14:25 -0500i* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapd2 Message-ID: <JqydnZ442d8BC4XdRVn_iw@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:yvxCHsCtYZWm@eisner.encompasserve.org...a@ > In article <OOidnSHAeM9Rx4XdRVn_iw@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...s  J > > Since Xeon's performance already meets or exceeds Madison's, and sinceL > > Xeon's performance had *better* continue to increase (unless it wants toJ > > cede the high-performance low-end server space to Opteron), it doesn't soundIB > > as if any Itanic will be per-core-competitive with x86 for the foreseeabletK > > future - unless there's another Itanic flavor besides Tanglewood comingw out K > > in 2006-7 specifically aimed at better per-core performance (if so, I'd  be > > interested in any details).a > >e >2D > Xeon performance should increase substantially if they are talking@ > about having 4 cores ( Tukwila / 2 ).  Whether that data point+ > has substance, I haven't tracked it down.O >.A > I guess what I am getting at is if Fister tells us like it willb > be:g >r, > http://news.com.com/2100-1006-5140486.html >rJ > The Santa Clara, Calif.-based chipmaker is working on chipsets and otherJ > products and technologies that will make an Itanium-based server no moreI > expensive than a similar machine powered by its Xeon chip by 2007, said- MikeF > Fister, senior vice president of the server products group at Intel.  K Hmmm.  If Tukwila has twice as many cores as Xeons have then, it's possibleoL to imagine that a single-chip Tukwila (with 8 cores) could be less expensiveA than a dual-chip Xeon (with 8 cores total) - though the aggregateiE performance of the Xeon box should be higher.  However, your originalsK comment specified the full range from 1 to 128 (I think) processors, and atbH the low end of that range (where both architectures are competing for anH application which benefits from no more cores than are present on eitherH single chip) it still seems unlikely that the performance of Itanic will exceed that of Xeon.  L Multi-core chips do muddle things up a bit.  For example, if you look at theK chip (rather than per-core) performance of POWER4+, it makes Itanic look asrJ weak as Itanic makes SPARC look.  And when dual-core SPARCs appear shortlyL with aggregate chip performance rivaling Itanic's, are you going to consider them equals?  G That's why I prefer to concentrate on per-core performance, even though E without question there are *some* server applications where aggregateh' per-chip performance is more important.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:29:24 -05000* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheaph2 Message-ID: <FpmdnYWpEcS9B4Xd4p2dnA@metrocast.net>  / "Robert Klute" <news@klute.us> wrote in messagen2 news:j23h105ihrgccrgh0sqffhipp6t9vi3f6u@4ax.com...J > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:09:20 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> > wrote: >3 >c > >uI > >Since you clearly have not a clue about what this discussion is about,oL > >continuing it would be pointless.  I won't even comment on the balance of2 > >your post - which you should consider merciful. > >o >o >eF > First, I make the mistake of replying to a flippant Andrew Harrison,  @ You did indeed make a mistake:  you had nothing relevant to say.    now* > I have to suffer a dismissive Bill Todd.  I That's because I don't suffer fools gladly - at least not stubborn fools.l  C The post of Andrew's to which you first responded clearly discussed J commodity desktops, not 'workstations'.  You continually attempted to dragJ it off into the workstation weeds:  don't be surprised to get yanked back.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:19:52 GMT-" From: Robert Klute <news@klute.us>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapu8 Message-ID: <dq6h109n59ga5kjps2ca0p04mchrkhre01@4ax.com>  H On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:29:24 -0500, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:  D >The post of Andrew's to which you first responded clearly discussedK >commodity desktops, not 'workstations'.  You continually attempted to drag K >it off into the workstation weeds:  don't be surprised to get yanked back.   H OK, but even Intel does not envision Itanium as a commodity desktop CPU.E They want to replace the Xeon chips, the chips that power servers and C workstations (sorry, used that word again).  They don't say it willm1 replace the desktop and laptop Pentium systems.  h   Based on today's rumors   L http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=4233918    E Intel may just replace the commodity desktop IA-32 chip its own IA-32 H with 64-bit extensions.  Most likely it would an Opteron compatible CPU.D Although they could introduce a CPU that is will run all the OpteronG extensions but include extra instructions (The embrace and extend ploy, G which I guess is what AMD did to Intel with Opteron).  Worst case woulduG be a chip that is incompatible with Opteron, that would be a tough selle@ with Microsoft and without Microsoft's buy in it's a dead horse.  F Intel's main advantage would be that they could continue IA-32/ItaniumF strategy of upgrade compatibility and ensure that the IA-32 and its 64- bit cousin used the same socket and chipsets.o  H Intel could try a GHz war with AMD, but that is coming back to bite them* as they try a market the Centrino systems.  ! Better? Or am I still off base?  m    D Ultimately, the problem for this group is that Compaq/Capellas did aB really effective job of killing Alpha and HP was in no position toG resurrect it. Intel owns both architectures.  Even if HP were to decide E that Alpha was technically better than Itanium, there is no way Intel @ would let HP resurrect it.  So, while Opteron may have IA-32 bitC compatibility and a memory architecture that is tantalizingly AlphagD like, HP has to be committed to Itanium for at least the next 5 to 7 years.  D On the bright side, I have seen VMS running on a Integrity SuperDome! clustered with an Alpha server.  a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:06:01 -0600 ' From: "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> & Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question) Message-ID: <401816f8_3@news1.prserv.net>m   I'll try that tomorrow night Thanks for the tip.. RD  H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:06TlI0I8vr30@eisner.encompasserve.org...d: > In article <4016c0a0_4@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> writes:E > > I have tried everything recommended, with no discernable positiveo results.K > > Anyone know if there is a 'debug' function to see where , possibly, the * > > process is failing to properly invoke? > > RD >3B >    Did you try turning on image level accounting?  The exit code( >    may tell you what you need to know. >oD >    Then be sure to turn it off before it eats all your disk space. >H   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:31:21 -0600l6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha questionT Message-ID: <craigberry-D7DFB7.14312128012004@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net>  ) In article <401816f8_3@news1.prserv.net>,n)  "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> wrote:    > I'll try that tomorrow night > Thanks for the tip.f > RD > J > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:06TlI0I8vr30@eisner.encompasserve.org...e< > > In article <4016c0a0_4@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" > <russ@dittmer.com> writes:G > > > I have tried everything recommended, with no discernable positivee
 > results.M > > > Anyone know if there is a 'debug' function to see where , possibly, thel, > > > process is failing to properly invoke? > > > RD > >cD > >    Did you try turning on image level accounting?  The exit code* > >    may tell you what you need to know. > >tF > >    Then be sure to turn it off before it eats all your disk space.  . If you have the SETPRV privilege, you could do   $ set process/privilege=exquota   G and try running Mozilla.  If it works, then at least you know you have oC a quota probblem of some sort to track down.   Don't try this on a a@ production server -- it's possible to fill up the page file and H probably other bad things.  And image level accounting is the safer and , more elegant way to make the same diagnosis.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:18:59 -0600o' From: "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com>m& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question) Message-ID: <40182812_1@news1.prserv.net>r   I'll try that as wellg Thanks RD  A "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote in messagelN news:craigberry-D7DFB7.14312128012004@dsl081-159-101.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net...+ > In article <401816f8_3@news1.prserv.net>,i+ >  "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> wrote:r >m  > > I'll try that tomorrow night > > Thanks for the tip.> > > RD > >IL > > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:06TlI0I8vr30@eisner.encompasserve.org...l> > > > In article <4016c0a0_4@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" > > <russ@dittmer.com> writes:I > > > > I have tried everything recommended, with no discernable positive  > > results.K > > > > Anyone know if there is a 'debug' function to see where , possibly,h the8. > > > > process is failing to properly invoke?
 > > > > RD > > >iF > > >    Did you try turning on image level accounting?  The exit code, > > >    may tell you what you need to know. > > >eH > > >    Then be sure to turn it off before it eats all your disk space. >v0 > If you have the SETPRV privilege, you could do >-! > $ set process/privilege=exquota  > H > and try running Mozilla.  If it works, then at least you know you haveD > a quota probblem of some sort to track down.   Don't try this on aA > production server -- it's possible to fill up the page file and I > probably other bad things.  And image level accounting is the safer andd. > more elegant way to make the same diagnosis.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:42:47 +0100S* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>& Subject: Re: Mozilla on Alpha question0 Message-ID: <4018AB67.4CEC58F6@sture.homeip.net>   Craig A. Berry wrote:  > + > In article <401816f8_3@news1.prserv.net>, + >  "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com> wrote:l >   > > I'll try that tomorrow night > > Thanks for the tip.  > > RD > >uL > > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:06TlI0I8vr30@eisner.encompasserve.org...>> > > > In article <4016c0a0_4@news1.prserv.net>, "Russ Dittmer" > > <russ@dittmer.com> writes:I > > > > I have tried everything recommended, with no discernable positiveu > > results.O > > > > Anyone know if there is a 'debug' function to see where , possibly, the3. > > > > process is failing to properly invoke?
 > > > > RD > > >rF > > >    Did you try turning on image level accounting?  The exit code, > > >    may tell you what you need to know. > > > H > > >    Then be sure to turn it off before it eats all your disk space. > 0 > If you have the SETPRV privilege, you could do > ! > $ set process/privilege=exquotas > H > and try running Mozilla.  If it works, then at least you know you haveD > a quota probblem of some sort to track down.   Don't try this on aA > production server -- it's possible to fill up the page file andpI > probably other bad things.  And image level accounting is the safer andS. > more elegant way to make the same diagnosis.    C Sorry, but not correct. EXQUOTA privilege only allows you to exceedc disk quota:C   $ set proc/priv=exq  $ sh proc/priv   ... * EXQUOTA              may exceed disk quota ...f   -- 1
 Paul Sture   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:15:58 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers) Message-ID: <4018187A.778BB10A@istop.com>d   John Laird wrote:nI > >> It is now.  Have you thought of asking Alastair Campbell for a job ?o >  > I see spin everywhere ;-)   M Spin which just has caused a few heads to roll at the BBC already even thoughrJ everyone knows that what the BBC published was right. Governments are veryI good as sheltering their heads from the accusations of lying and focusing  blame onto innocent bystanders.o  J This is stuff right out of "Yes Minister". Except in this case, it was forI real, an a top british expert died as a result of aides trying to preventu blame from going to Bliar.  L Bliar didn't technically lie when he said he had received intelligence aboutG that 45 minute readiness. But he omitted (and asked for that text to be>F omitted from the "dossier") to mention that he had been told that thatF intelligence was questionable. (came from a single disgruntled Iraqi).  N That is similar to a former president of the USA who stated that he hadn't hadN sexual relations with Miss Lewisnky. Technically, he wasn't lying based on his# own definition of sexual relations.   N And HP isn't technically breaking their "plan of record" with Alpha since theyK will relabel EV7 into EV7z, delivering on a promise to provide a speed bumppE after EV7. But everyone sees right through this and knows that HP hasaL cancelled the real EV79 and is just allowing EV7 to get up to its originally designed speed.   N It is all about trust. When you don't trust someone or a vendor, you will readG between the lines and make damned sure that you won't be screwed by the-I vendor. And the non-delivery of EV79 is just another break in trust, evenbJ though legally, HP is still delivering a new chip (happens to be the exact4 same one inside with just a different label on top).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:52:02 +0100m  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers, Message-ID: <bv9p08$vph$1@news.cybercity.dk>   JF Mezei wrote:m > John Laird wrote: G >>>> It is now.  Have you thought of asking Alastair Campbell for a jobc >>>> ? clip ...  E > That is similar to a former president of the USA who stated that he A > hadn't had sexual relations with Miss Lewisnky. Technically, her? > wasn't lying based on his own definition of sexual relations.  >M  E Actually, the definition was made by the opposing brief in one of thesK several court cases (Paula Jones case IIRC) and, any person reading it (andwH I did at the time) can only conclude that a BJ in the corridoor does notJ constitute "sexual relations".  There was some legal wrangling and the "soI broad as to cover two 5 year olds kissing" definition of sexual relationso( paragraphs were removed by judge decree.  L Now, most dictionary reading will also lead to the conclusion that coitus isJ a prerequisite for sexual relations (a bit antiquated for your modern man,H but the line seems to be drawn there at least linguistically).  SO, I amK definitely voting for acquittal on perjury for the Big Bill C. on this one.cJ His statement was accurate and is logically and linguistically defensible.  5 Now back to your regaular programming in progress ...n  E > And HP isn't technically breaking their "plan of record" with AlpharC > since they will relabel EV7 into EV7z, delivering on a promise tooF > provide a speed bump after EV7. But everyone sees right through thisD > and knows that HP has cancelled the real EV79 and is just allowing1 > EV7 to get up to its originally designed speed.  >uF > It is all about trust. When you don't trust someone or a vendor, youD > will read between the lines and make damned sure that you won't beE > screwed by the vendor. And the non-delivery of EV79 is just anothereC > break in trust, even though legally, HP is still delivering a newoE > chip (happens to be the exact same one inside with just a differentt > label on top).  K yah, well, personally I consider Bill C a paragon of virtue compared to thes slimeballs that are HP!f   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:17:45 +1100rC From: "Christine Ricketts/Andrew Stewart" <u1276a@uxnxixtxe.com.au> F Subject: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers), Message-ID: <40182808_1@news.iprimus.com.au>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:vArzBt3MHhBk@eisner.encompasserve.org...YH > In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOEJCCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: >hJ > > I may be wrong here, but I think ALL processors other than Digital and# > > Microsoft have been big Endian.a >s/ > I don't think Microsoft ever made processors.:  / True, but the Motorola 68xxx was little endian.0   -- Regards, Andy.  / 03-9808-9584 AH, 0407-300-818 Reasonable Hours.r  * "The Early Christians get the Best Lions."* Jack Gilmore, quoted in "Digital At Work."   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 17:55:35 -0800e# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> J Subject: RE: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers)9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKELDCLAA.tom@kednos.com>s     -----Original Message-----J   From: Christine Ricketts/Andrew Stewart [mailto:u1276a@uxnxixtxe.com.au]+   Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 1:18 PM0   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComiH   Subject: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers)    <   "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/   news:vArzBt3MHhBk@eisner.encompasserve.org...hJ   > In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOEJCCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden"   <tom@kednos.com> writes:   >kL   > > I may be wrong here, but I think ALL processors other than Digital and%   > > Microsoft have been big Endian.    > 1   > I don't think Microsoft ever made processors.d  1   True, but the Motorola 68xxx was little endian.n   Not when I worked on it!     --   Regards, Andy.  1   03-9808-9584 AH, 0407-300-818 Reasonable Hours.   ,   "The Early Christians get the Best Lions.",   Jack Gilmore, quoted in "Digital At Work."           --- (   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ---G& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:27:29 +0000 (UTC)4% From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase)hJ Subject: Re: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers)( Message-ID: <bv9r2h$tko$1@pcls4.std.com>  , In article <40182808_1@news.iprimus.com.au>,B Christine Ricketts/Andrew Stewart <u1276a@uxnxixtxe.com.au> wrote:< > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:vArzBt3MHhBk@eisner.encompasserve.org...nJ > > In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOEJCCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" > <tom@kednos.com> writes:  L > > > I may be wrong here, but I think ALL processors other than Digital and% > > > Microsoft have been big Endian.n > >k1 > > I don't think Microsoft ever made processors.  > 1 > True, but the Motorola 68xxx was little endian.l  H Bzzt!  The M680x0 family are all big-endian, and they're probably one of7 most notable families of big-endian processors at that.    -brian.1 --  F --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----+ Font-o-Meter!      Proportional  Monospacedo'                                       ^c   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:46:40 -0500L* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>J Subject: Re: Other Little Endian computers (was Re: OpenVMS I64 Compilers)) Message-ID: <401873F8.CFAB363A@istop.com>i   Brian Chase wrote:J > Bzzt!  The M680x0 family are all big-endian, and they're probably one of9 > most notable families of big-endian processors at that.:  R Which is why the TIFF format has either an I or an M in the first couple of bytes:  F I for intel , meaning the binary data in the file is in little endian.L M for Motorola, meaning the binary data in the file is big endian. (from the 68000 days of the macintosh).o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:08:32 GMTO2 From: "Ken Farmer" <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> Subject: Rumours of (CPU) Wars> Message-ID: <AWZRb.16444$F86.1814545@twister.southeast.rr.com>   SKHPC: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  J Two days ago, CNET.COM published an article citing unnamed sources who areJ alleging that HP plans to come out with servers that contain AMD's OpteronK processor. While SKHPC is not in a position to confirm or deny the veracity D of this story, we do have some Opteron and Itanium data that's worth considering.  A http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=04/01/28/7503155      -- Kenneth Farmer <>< OpenVMS.org  |  dcl.OpenVMS.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:40:56 -0600d@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars6 Message-ID: <401872B8.3D4ADDED@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Ken Farmer wrote:t >  > SKHPC: Rumours of (CPU) Wars > L > Two days ago, CNET.COM published an article citing unnamed sources who areL > alleging that HP plans to come out with servers that contain AMD's OpteronM > processor. While SKHPC is not in a position to confirm or deny the veracitysF > of this story, we do have some Opteron and Itanium data that's worth > considering. > C > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=04/01/28/7503155e  G A quick read seems to indicate that hp have taken a swim in "that rivere
 in Egypt".   You know which one... ;-)d   -- , David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:50:55 +0000 (UTC)i% From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase)f" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars( Message-ID: <bv9sef$t7p$1@pcls4.std.com>  > In article <AWZRb.16444$F86.1814545@twister.southeast.rr.com>,1 Ken Farmer <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> wrote:  > SKHPC: Rumours of (CPU) Wars > L > Two days ago, CNET.COM published an article citing unnamed sources who areL > alleging that HP plans to come out with servers that contain AMD's OpteronM > processor. While SKHPC is not in a position to confirm or deny the veracity>F > of this story, we do have some Opteron and Itanium data that's worth > considering. > C > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=04/01/28/7503155   D Er, I'm not really sure what he means by... "Neither Opteron nor theF so-called Yamhill processor represent full 64-bit architectures, henceJ both CPUs lack the full range of capabilities offered by Intel's Itanium processors."  I The Opteron /is/ a full 64-bit architecture, although it may not be quite & as pretty as some of the alternatives.  > By Shannon's logic, the IA-32 architecture isn't a full 32-bitF architecture since it's only an extension of the existing 16-bit 8086,@ which itself could be considered an extension of the 8-bit 8080.   -brian.  -- HF --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ -----+ Font-o-Meter!      Proportional  Monospacedc'                                       ^    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:46:09 -0600P@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>( Subject: Re: stupid backup tricks (long)6 Message-ID: <401865E1.9F4B6576@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Wayne Sewell wrote:> > [snip]O > Note to Dachera: the writeup on this refers to "rooted-device logical names".sO > I would consider the term "rooted-device" to be equivalent to "pseudo-device"sI > in that it contains the key word "device".  So whether the concept of amO > pseudo-device is good or bad, it is not something fabricated totally from thet? > minds of customers.  Digital engineering uses a similar term.6  - How many wrongs does it take to make a right?r  = ...especially given the fallout that you yourself documented?   D Also, "rooted-device logical name" is a distinctly different conceptH from "pseudo-device" which implies something that is simply not true andD does not, in fact, exist. If it did, I would expect to see PSA0: and@ similar devices and/or a (SYS$)PSDRIVER somewhere on the system.  < Actually, though, having chewed on the thought a bit, a trueA pseudo-device wouldn't be such a bad idea, IMO. Suppose you couldoH associate an emulated disk device (PSAnnnn:) with a rooted logical name,> and even assign it it's own diskquota (data stored in the DCB,H initialized at DCB creation time, and updated when files are CREATEd in,6 or DELETEd or RENAMEd out of the directory structure):  : $ MC SYSMAN IO CONNECT PSA0:/DRIVER=SYS$PSDRIVER/NOADAPTER $ CREATE/PSEUDO_DEVICE PSA0:-a 	/PATH=$1$DKA200:[FINAPPS.]- 	/QUOTA=204800-s
 	/VERBOSE- 	/LOGl6 %CREATE-I-CREATED, pseudo-device created on $1$DKA200:0 %PSD-I-REMQTA, remaining diskquota 101532 blocks8 $ DEFINE/SYSTEM FINAPPS PSA0:[000000.]/TRANS=(CONC,TERM)   -- r David J. Dachtera: dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:20:29 +0000SO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>>I Subject: Re: The Register: OpenVMS among most-secure of operating systemsH0 Message-ID: <bv8uhd$sf6$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <bv8g67$mp1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > 7 >>Well you did a remarkably good job of showing in your 9 >>first post that if you had heard of EAL that you didn'tu >>know what it was.  >  > J >    I said it was a joke.  Others have confirmed it.  I still say it is a
 >    joke. > 8 The fact that others may support your point doesn't mean2 that you made it from a position of understanding.  1 You of all people should know this only too well.s   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:01:24 +0100   From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>O Subject: Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the PresideH- Message-ID: <bv9phj$10ih$1@news.cybercity.dk>m   All Hail the Expert wrote:- > J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:a >h >> devil wrote: F >>> Hospitals, HMOs are large corporations, owned by a small number ofC >>> wealthy physicians.  Who run a monopoly so they are free to set G >>> fees sky-high, and merrily prescribing use and overuse of expensives >>> equipment. >>G >> Actually, there is competition betwene HMOs. If one hospital doesn'tgE >> have a fancy MRI machine, but the hospital across the street does,pB >> the first hospital will lose business because HMOs will want toG >> associate themselves with the fancy hospital that is better equippedo) >> in order to promote their health plan.t >>A >> This results in hospitals becoming over-equipped with too muchDB >> capacity for a region. From the hospital point of view, being a@ >> business, the accountants state that in order to make the MRIA >> investment profitable, they must have X paying customers goings >> through the machine per day.  >>F >> Airlines will lower the price of tickets when not enough passengersE >> book in advance. Hospitals don't compete on price, they compete onIE >> features and charge as much as they want. And when they don't haveeE >> enough customers to warrant investment in an MRI machine, then the < >> doctors will start to over prescribe to "fill the seats". >>G >> Patients don't care because it is paid by the insurance company. AndtG >> it is pretty hard for an HMO to second guess a doctor's opinion that + >> a patient needs such and such treatment.s >>G >> This is where national health care plans are quite different.  There7D >> is no oversupply of fancy equipment, so the doctors don't have toE >> overprescribe its use. In fact, it is more of a question of supplyiF >> not matching expected demand, with doctors having to decide whetherE >> an MRI is really necessary or not and only sending cases where thep >> MRI is truly necessary. >>G >> And this is where you start hearing stories of people waiting months E >> for some treatment: they give priority to patients who really need C >> access to facilities that have limited capacity, and if you haveiE >> some problem that isn't serious then you are put in a waiting listeE >> where you are in the airline equivalent of "stand by" for the nextt
 >> free spot.d >>F >> And the lack of an oversupply of facilities also forced the doctorsD >> to use more common sense and perhaps more conventional treatmentsF >> which, in the end, work just as well even though they are not right" >> out of a science fiction movie. >>C >> One could argue that hospitals in countries with national healthaF >> plans are in fact far more efficient in their use of resources thanE >> USA hospitals which have an over supply of resources and use theseI< >> valuable resources for cases that don't really need them. >>? >> The advantage of a national health plan is that there is onerD >> customer who also happens to be the owner (the government) And itE >> can then dictate the allocation of resources so that for instance,vD >> one hospital per region has an MRI machine and other hospitals in@ >> the region won't have to "compete". You just get sent to thatB >> hospital if you really need an MRI, otherwise, they'll fix your9 >> broken leg with conventional x-ray machine and a cast.o >>E >> IN fact, in rural areas, if a doctor really feels that you requireoE >> an MRI and there is none in your region, the government will oftenwG >> fly you to a hospital that does. It turns out costing much less thant2 >> installing MRI machines at every street corner. >>E >> People in developped nations now take health care for granted. AndiG >> this is a problem with regards to rising costs because you expect tomE >> be treated for any/all ailments. And whereas people used to acceptpG >> that heart attacks were fatal, they now expcect to survive those andaD >> see them as just an inconvenience and figure that technology will; >> fix your heart. This is especially true in the USA wheret >> expectations are very high. >>B >> The problem is that in the USA, hospitals and doctors want moreG >> patients. Drug companies want more business so they give doctors alleF >> sorts of incentives to prescribe their new drugs (which often existF >> to solve some non exsitant disease, but are marketed as the perfectB >> solution for a problem that the drug companies say is extremelyD >> serious (such as having to urinate during a baseball game because >> you can't hold it)).O >>G >> HMOs have patients as customers. And if the HMO refuses a procedure,k >> it may lose the customer. >>E >> When the HMO is a single government entity, it doesn't fear losing G >> customers and can decide that certain procedures are purely elective @ >> and won't pay for it. (patents must then see doctors in their+ >> clinics and pay for elective treatment).f >>C >> And when the HMO is a single government entity who also owns the F >> hospitals and has doctors on its payroll, it can decide how much itB >> pays. So there is no overcharging by doctors and hospitals. AndE >> because the budgets are tight, hospitals have been forced to cleany. >> up their operations to increase efficiency. >>E >> And yes, you do have strikes in the health sector (there was on inuE >> France yesterday) when the government refuses to provide the staff D >> the salary increases that they want. But the government has clearA >> incentive to keep costs under control since its revenus do not.E >> increase if there are more patients who are sick. Its goal in factaD >> is to reduce the demand on the health care system, whereas in theE >> USA, the hospitals and doctors want to increase demand in order toa >> increase profits. >SF > You seem to be an authority (in your own mind) on all things that goD > on in the USA.  Amazing, really, considering you: 1) Don't live inD > the USA, and 2) Are an unemployed wanker who spends all day in bed= > sleeping (and wanking) and all night on usenet trolling the  > newsgroups (and wanking).   E As a former Director of a large HMO I can attest to the fact that thesJ original poster has his head firmly implanted in his rectum.  Previously IL would have been able to quote the procedure number for its removal, but alasI I no longer work in the HMO business.  Either way, I am sure his/her HMOsJJ medical procedure review committee would readily accept the necessity of aH craniorectomy and for the poster, as the prima fcal evidence is clearly indicative of a severe case.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:01:34 +0100   From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>O Subject: Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the Presidet- Message-ID: <bv9pht$10ik$1@news.cybercity.dk>t   All Hail the Expert wrote:- > J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:  >i >> devil wrote: F >>> Hospitals, HMOs are large corporations, owned by a small number ofC >>> wealthy physicians.  Who run a monopoly so they are free to set G >>> fees sky-high, and merrily prescribing use and overuse of expensive  >>> equipment. >>G >> Actually, there is competition betwene HMOs. If one hospital doesn'tiE >> have a fancy MRI machine, but the hospital across the street does,hB >> the first hospital will lose business because HMOs will want toG >> associate themselves with the fancy hospital that is better equippede) >> in order to promote their health plan.0 >>A >> This results in hospitals becoming over-equipped with too muchhB >> capacity for a region. From the hospital point of view, being a@ >> business, the accountants state that in order to make the MRIA >> investment profitable, they must have X paying customers goings >> through the machine per day.p >>F >> Airlines will lower the price of tickets when not enough passengersE >> book in advance. Hospitals don't compete on price, they compete onuE >> features and charge as much as they want. And when they don't havegE >> enough customers to warrant investment in an MRI machine, then ther< >> doctors will start to over prescribe to "fill the seats". >>G >> Patients don't care because it is paid by the insurance company. AndtG >> it is pretty hard for an HMO to second guess a doctor's opinion thate+ >> a patient needs such and such treatment.  >>G >> This is where national health care plans are quite different.  There.D >> is no oversupply of fancy equipment, so the doctors don't have toE >> overprescribe its use. In fact, it is more of a question of supplysF >> not matching expected demand, with doctors having to decide whetherE >> an MRI is really necessary or not and only sending cases where the, >> MRI is truly necessary. >>G >> And this is where you start hearing stories of people waiting monthsvE >> for some treatment: they give priority to patients who really need C >> access to facilities that have limited capacity, and if you have-E >> some problem that isn't serious then you are put in a waiting listrE >> where you are in the airline equivalent of "stand by" for the nexta
 >> free spot.i >>F >> And the lack of an oversupply of facilities also forced the doctorsD >> to use more common sense and perhaps more conventional treatmentsF >> which, in the end, work just as well even though they are not right" >> out of a science fiction movie. >>C >> One could argue that hospitals in countries with national healthoF >> plans are in fact far more efficient in their use of resources thanE >> USA hospitals which have an over supply of resources and use thesel< >> valuable resources for cases that don't really need them. >>? >> The advantage of a national health plan is that there is one D >> customer who also happens to be the owner (the government) And itE >> can then dictate the allocation of resources so that for instance,-D >> one hospital per region has an MRI machine and other hospitals in@ >> the region won't have to "compete". You just get sent to thatB >> hospital if you really need an MRI, otherwise, they'll fix your9 >> broken leg with conventional x-ray machine and a cast.l >>E >> IN fact, in rural areas, if a doctor really feels that you require E >> an MRI and there is none in your region, the government will oftenIG >> fly you to a hospital that does. It turns out costing much less thanc2 >> installing MRI machines at every street corner. >>E >> People in developped nations now take health care for granted. AnddG >> this is a problem with regards to rising costs because you expect to,E >> be treated for any/all ailments. And whereas people used to accepttG >> that heart attacks were fatal, they now expcect to survive those and D >> see them as just an inconvenience and figure that technology will; >> fix your heart. This is especially true in the USA where  >> expectations are very high. >>B >> The problem is that in the USA, hospitals and doctors want moreG >> patients. Drug companies want more business so they give doctors allcF >> sorts of incentives to prescribe their new drugs (which often existF >> to solve some non exsitant disease, but are marketed as the perfectB >> solution for a problem that the drug companies say is extremelyD >> serious (such as having to urinate during a baseball game because >> you can't hold it)).i >>G >> HMOs have patients as customers. And if the HMO refuses a procedure,I >> it may lose the customer. >>E >> When the HMO is a single government entity, it doesn't fear losinghG >> customers and can decide that certain procedures are purely elective @ >> and won't pay for it. (patents must then see doctors in their+ >> clinics and pay for elective treatment).  >>C >> And when the HMO is a single government entity who also owns thepF >> hospitals and has doctors on its payroll, it can decide how much itB >> pays. So there is no overcharging by doctors and hospitals. AndE >> because the budgets are tight, hospitals have been forced to clean . >> up their operations to increase efficiency. >>E >> And yes, you do have strikes in the health sector (there was on intE >> France yesterday) when the government refuses to provide the staffyD >> the salary increases that they want. But the government has clearA >> incentive to keep costs under control since its revenus do notyE >> increase if there are more patients who are sick. Its goal in factdD >> is to reduce the demand on the health care system, whereas in theE >> USA, the hospitals and doctors want to increase demand in order tol >> increase profits. >-F > You seem to be an authority (in your own mind) on all things that goD > on in the USA.  Amazing, really, considering you: 1) Don't live inD > the USA, and 2) Are an unemployed wanker who spends all day in bed= > sleeping (and wanking) and all night on usenet trolling thee > newsgroups (and wanking).g  E As a former Director of a large HMO I can attest to the fact that theaJ original poster has his head firmly implanted in his rectum.  Previously IL would have been able to quote the procedure number for its removal, but alasI I no longer work in the HMO business.  Either way, I am sure his/her HMOssJ medical procedure review committee would readily accept the necessity of aH craniorectomy and for the poster, as the prima fcal evidence is clearly indicative of a severe case.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:01:45 +0100   From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>O Subject: Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the Presidec- Message-ID: <bv9pia$10im$1@news.cybercity.dk>u   All Hail the Expert wrote:- > J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:. >a >> devil wrote:aF >>> Hospitals, HMOs are large corporations, owned by a small number ofC >>> wealthy physicians.  Who run a monopoly so they are free to set G >>> fees sky-high, and merrily prescribing use and overuse of expensive  >>> equipment. >>G >> Actually, there is competition betwene HMOs. If one hospital doesn't1E >> have a fancy MRI machine, but the hospital across the street does,eB >> the first hospital will lose business because HMOs will want toG >> associate themselves with the fancy hospital that is better equippeds) >> in order to promote their health plan.p >>A >> This results in hospitals becoming over-equipped with too much B >> capacity for a region. From the hospital point of view, being a@ >> business, the accountants state that in order to make the MRIA >> investment profitable, they must have X paying customers going  >> through the machine per day.  >>F >> Airlines will lower the price of tickets when not enough passengersE >> book in advance. Hospitals don't compete on price, they compete onrE >> features and charge as much as they want. And when they don't haveyE >> enough customers to warrant investment in an MRI machine, then thee< >> doctors will start to over prescribe to "fill the seats". >>G >> Patients don't care because it is paid by the insurance company. AnduG >> it is pretty hard for an HMO to second guess a doctor's opinion that1+ >> a patient needs such and such treatment.s >>G >> This is where national health care plans are quite different.  ThereiD >> is no oversupply of fancy equipment, so the doctors don't have toE >> overprescribe its use. In fact, it is more of a question of supply"F >> not matching expected demand, with doctors having to decide whetherE >> an MRI is really necessary or not and only sending cases where thel >> MRI is truly necessary. >>G >> And this is where you start hearing stories of people waiting months E >> for some treatment: they give priority to patients who really needsC >> access to facilities that have limited capacity, and if you havewE >> some problem that isn't serious then you are put in a waiting listeE >> where you are in the airline equivalent of "stand by" for the next 
 >> free spot.r >>F >> And the lack of an oversupply of facilities also forced the doctorsD >> to use more common sense and perhaps more conventional treatmentsF >> which, in the end, work just as well even though they are not right" >> out of a science fiction movie. >>C >> One could argue that hospitals in countries with national health F >> plans are in fact far more efficient in their use of resources thanE >> USA hospitals which have an over supply of resources and use these < >> valuable resources for cases that don't really need them. >>? >> The advantage of a national health plan is that there is oneiD >> customer who also happens to be the owner (the government) And itE >> can then dictate the allocation of resources so that for instance, D >> one hospital per region has an MRI machine and other hospitals in@ >> the region won't have to "compete". You just get sent to thatB >> hospital if you really need an MRI, otherwise, they'll fix your9 >> broken leg with conventional x-ray machine and a cast.  >>E >> IN fact, in rural areas, if a doctor really feels that you requireBE >> an MRI and there is none in your region, the government will often G >> fly you to a hospital that does. It turns out costing much less than62 >> installing MRI machines at every street corner. >>E >> People in developped nations now take health care for granted. AnddG >> this is a problem with regards to rising costs because you expect tobE >> be treated for any/all ailments. And whereas people used to accepttG >> that heart attacks were fatal, they now expcect to survive those andmD >> see them as just an inconvenience and figure that technology will; >> fix your heart. This is especially true in the USA wheref >> expectations are very high. >>B >> The problem is that in the USA, hospitals and doctors want moreG >> patients. Drug companies want more business so they give doctors all F >> sorts of incentives to prescribe their new drugs (which often existF >> to solve some non exsitant disease, but are marketed as the perfectB >> solution for a problem that the drug companies say is extremelyD >> serious (such as having to urinate during a baseball game because >> you can't hold it)).t >>G >> HMOs have patients as customers. And if the HMO refuses a procedure,  >> it may lose the customer. >>E >> When the HMO is a single government entity, it doesn't fear losinguG >> customers and can decide that certain procedures are purely elective0@ >> and won't pay for it. (patents must then see doctors in their+ >> clinics and pay for elective treatment).B >>C >> And when the HMO is a single government entity who also owns the F >> hospitals and has doctors on its payroll, it can decide how much itB >> pays. So there is no overcharging by doctors and hospitals. AndE >> because the budgets are tight, hospitals have been forced to clean . >> up their operations to increase efficiency. >>E >> And yes, you do have strikes in the health sector (there was on innE >> France yesterday) when the government refuses to provide the staffeD >> the salary increases that they want. But the government has clearA >> incentive to keep costs under control since its revenus do notnE >> increase if there are more patients who are sick. Its goal in factuD >> is to reduce the demand on the health care system, whereas in theE >> USA, the hospitals and doctors want to increase demand in order tog >> increase profits. >aF > You seem to be an authority (in your own mind) on all things that goD > on in the USA.  Amazing, really, considering you: 1) Don't live inD > the USA, and 2) Are an unemployed wanker who spends all day in bed= > sleeping (and wanking) and all night on usenet trolling theh > newsgroups (and wanking).h  E As a former Director of a large HMO I can attest to the fact that theiJ original poster has his head firmly implanted in his rectum.  Previously IL would have been able to quote the procedure number for its removal, but alasI I no longer work in the HMO business.  Either way, I am sure his/her HMOssJ medical procedure review committee would readily accept the necessity of aH craniorectomy and for the poster, as the prima fcal evidence is clearly indicative of a severe case.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:01:02 +0100e  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>O Subject: Re: The State of the Union, Health care and more lies from the Preside - Message-ID: <bv9pgt$10i7$1@news.cybercity.dk>e   All Hail the Expert wrote:- > J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:b >i >> devil wrote:iF >>> Hospitals, HMOs are large corporations, owned by a small number ofC >>> wealthy physicians.  Who run a monopoly so they are free to setaG >>> fees sky-high, and merrily prescribing use and overuse of expensivea >>> equipment. >>G >> Actually, there is competition betwene HMOs. If one hospital doesn'toE >> have a fancy MRI machine, but the hospital across the street does,pB >> the first hospital will lose business because HMOs will want toG >> associate themselves with the fancy hospital that is better equippede) >> in order to promote their health plan.i >>A >> This results in hospitals becoming over-equipped with too muchrB >> capacity for a region. From the hospital point of view, being a@ >> business, the accountants state that in order to make the MRIA >> investment profitable, they must have X paying customers goingr >> through the machine per day.b >>F >> Airlines will lower the price of tickets when not enough passengersE >> book in advance. Hospitals don't compete on price, they compete onrE >> features and charge as much as they want. And when they don't haveiE >> enough customers to warrant investment in an MRI machine, then the < >> doctors will start to over prescribe to "fill the seats". >>G >> Patients don't care because it is paid by the insurance company. AndEG >> it is pretty hard for an HMO to second guess a doctor's opinion thatv+ >> a patient needs such and such treatment.h >>G >> This is where national health care plans are quite different.  TheresD >> is no oversupply of fancy equipment, so the doctors don't have toE >> overprescribe its use. In fact, it is more of a question of supplyaF >> not matching expected demand, with doctors having to decide whetherE >> an MRI is really necessary or not and only sending cases where the, >> MRI is truly necessary. >>G >> And this is where you start hearing stories of people waiting months E >> for some treatment: they give priority to patients who really needvC >> access to facilities that have limited capacity, and if you have-E >> some problem that isn't serious then you are put in a waiting listeE >> where you are in the airline equivalent of "stand by" for the nextt
 >> free spot.u >>F >> And the lack of an oversupply of facilities also forced the doctorsD >> to use more common sense and perhaps more conventional treatmentsF >> which, in the end, work just as well even though they are not right" >> out of a science fiction movie. >>C >> One could argue that hospitals in countries with national healthIF >> plans are in fact far more efficient in their use of resources thanE >> USA hospitals which have an over supply of resources and use thesee< >> valuable resources for cases that don't really need them. >>? >> The advantage of a national health plan is that there is oneyD >> customer who also happens to be the owner (the government) And itE >> can then dictate the allocation of resources so that for instance,5D >> one hospital per region has an MRI machine and other hospitals in@ >> the region won't have to "compete". You just get sent to thatB >> hospital if you really need an MRI, otherwise, they'll fix your9 >> broken leg with conventional x-ray machine and a cast.i >>E >> IN fact, in rural areas, if a doctor really feels that you require E >> an MRI and there is none in your region, the government will often(G >> fly you to a hospital that does. It turns out costing much less thanp2 >> installing MRI machines at every street corner. >>E >> People in developped nations now take health care for granted. AndoG >> this is a problem with regards to rising costs because you expect tooE >> be treated for any/all ailments. And whereas people used to acceptsG >> that heart attacks were fatal, they now expcect to survive those andrD >> see them as just an inconvenience and figure that technology will; >> fix your heart. This is especially true in the USA where- >> expectations are very high. >>B >> The problem is that in the USA, hospitals and doctors want moreG >> patients. Drug companies want more business so they give doctors alliF >> sorts of incentives to prescribe their new drugs (which often existF >> to solve some non exsitant disease, but are marketed as the perfectB >> solution for a problem that the drug companies say is extremelyD >> serious (such as having to urinate during a baseball game because >> you can't hold it)).: >>G >> HMOs have patients as customers. And if the HMO refuses a procedure,2 >> it may lose the customer. >>E >> When the HMO is a single government entity, it doesn't fear losingeG >> customers and can decide that certain procedures are purely electivea@ >> and won't pay for it. (patents must then see doctors in their+ >> clinics and pay for elective treatment).  >>C >> And when the HMO is a single government entity who also owns the3F >> hospitals and has doctors on its payroll, it can decide how much itB >> pays. So there is no overcharging by doctors and hospitals. AndE >> because the budgets are tight, hospitals have been forced to cleant. >> up their operations to increase efficiency. >>E >> And yes, you do have strikes in the health sector (there was on inhE >> France yesterday) when the government refuses to provide the stafflD >> the salary increases that they want. But the government has clearA >> incentive to keep costs under control since its revenus do notdE >> increase if there are more patients who are sick. Its goal in factPD >> is to reduce the demand on the health care system, whereas in theE >> USA, the hospitals and doctors want to increase demand in order toL >> increase profits. >.F > You seem to be an authority (in your own mind) on all things that goD > on in the USA.  Amazing, really, considering you: 1) Don't live inD > the USA, and 2) Are an unemployed wanker who spends all day in bed= > sleeping (and wanking) and all night on usenet trolling the  > newsgroups (and wanking).   E As a former Director of a large HMO I can attest to the fact that theeJ original poster has his head firmly implanted in his rectum.  Previously IL would have been able to quote the procedure number for its removal, but alasI I no longer work in the HMO business.  Either way, I am sure his/her HMOs J medical procedure review committee would readily accept the necessity of aH craniorectomy and for the poster, as the prima fcal evidence is clearly indicative of a severe case.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:06:16 GMTi* From: Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net>? Subject: Re: The State of the Union: Lies about a Dishonest Warn6 Message-ID: <0001HW.BC3D563900156415F00805B0@shawnews>  9 On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 8:08:44 -0800, Very Interesting wroten9 (in message <LBAVPYMA38014.4227314815@anonymous.poster>):s  K > Amazing how many professions you have while managing to remain terminally< > unemployed. . . . .. >    Stop spamming other groups.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:07:09 +0100e" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>0 Subject: VAXUS Symposium program v1.0-0 (french)4 Message-ID: <40183325$0$29084$636a55ce@news.free.fr>  . http://www.didiermorandi.com/vaxus/congres.htm   D. -- w2 VAXUS - Your new helpful friend in the DEC Family!2 EHQ: 19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France/       Phone: +336 7983 6418 Fax: +335 6154 1928 $                 http://www.vaxus.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:28:32 -0600t@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>4 Subject: Re: VAXUS Symposium program v1.0-0 (french)6 Message-ID: <40186FD0.AE0A3CC7@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Didier Morandi wrote:  > 0 > http://www.didiermorandi.com/vaxus/congres.htm  " Wish I'd taken French in school...   -- d David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsp http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:37:50 -0500j. From: "Goetz Ulrich" <ulrichg---n-o-t@gmx.net>0 Subject: Re: X11 via SSH from OpenVMS to Win20000 Message-ID: <6cCdnfr-0puu74XdRVn-sw@comcast.com>  @ Thanks for your input Denis - it brought me on the right track !  K I got it work - sweet, nice, convenient to have home's environment @ work !s   Now, how did I do that ?   Three steps:G 1) At SecureCRT add an entry at the "Connection/Port Forwarding/Remote"o section:   Name: X11 (whatever ...)J Remote Address: 6003  (has to be different from 6000, which is the OpenVMS *local* X server)n Local Host: localhost:6000  K This means that the OpenVMS Port 6003 will be tunneled and forwarded to thet PC to Port 6000N  F 2) Connect with these settings to the OpenVMS host. You'll get a FTAx: terminal (not a DECterm yet!) / You can see the port forwarding setup by typingt $ ucx netstat -a  > 3) Direct the display to server 3 (which relates to Port 6003)3 $ SET DISP/CREA/NODE=localhost/TRANS=TCPIP/SERVER=3r  7 And VOILA - all the nice X-windows will be transferred:t $ CREA/TERMt $ MC DECW$CLOCKn $ @SYS$COMMON:[MOZILLA]MOZILLA you name it ....  H Funny, nice, stable, convenient. Even better with SSH2 compression being- switched on at "Connection/SSH2/ .. checkbox"o  ? The HP TCP/IP SSH manual wasn't really that helpful though ....a  
 Thanks again, ! warm regards from cold Michigan !    Goetz-      @ "Denis Fayaud" <denis.fayaud@netspace.mc> schrieb im Newsbeitrag6 news:93820504.0401280149.b263735@posting.google.com...5 > I do something like that and it works like a charm:g >DH >  At home I got an old PC running Cygwin. I start an Xserver on this PC > and I "ssh" OpenVMS machines.e >o4 > On the local PC xterm, I send a command like this: >l/ > ssh -l toto -R 6003:localhost:6000 vmsmachinee >tD > After being logged on the vms side,I define the display as follow: >h8 > set display/create/node=localhost/trans=tcpip/server=3 >oH > and then I can run "mc decw$clock" or any other decwindows application > on my home PC  >i > Hope it can help.y >o > ; > "Goetz Ulrich" <ulrichg---n-o-t@gmx.net> wrote in messagel, news:<vvadnbphPtnNjYrdRVn-jQ@comcast.com>...H > > Does anybody has a working example of setting up X11 via SSH from an OpenVMSw > > node to a Win2000 client ?E > > I checked the HP documentation on SSH on TCPIP V5.4 but the given  examples > > were not working for me. > >Y > > My configuration:n > > OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 > > TCP/IP V5.4e > > Windows 2000 > > SecureCRT 4.0u > >v > > Here is what I did:d+ > > I disabled all security on the X servere% > > I started the X server (Exceed 7)oH > > I logged in successful to OpenVMS with the SecureCRT. I get an FTAx:
 > > terminal.aK > > Of course I checked the X11 port forwarding box in the SecureCRT optiond
 > > settings.  > >eF > > Goal: To run an X-Client from the OpenVMS through the existing SSH	 tunnel toR > > show up at the Win2000 PC. > >A! > > I tried several combinations:0J > > - set or not set >>> SET DISP/CREA/NODE=localhost/TRANS=TCPIP/SERVER=3F > > - running $ MC DECW$CLOCK or $ CREA/TERM with or without the above setting J > > - running $ SSH -"L"6003:localhost:6000 NONOVMSHOST  (<<< BTW: What to sett > > here correct ?!?!) > >i  > > Finally all I get is either:4 > > %DECW-E-CANT_OPEN_DISPL, Can't open display   or3 > > %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204   or both0 > >r > > What do I do wrong here ?l > > 	 > > GoetzH   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.056 ************************ating systemsH0 Message-ID: <bv8uhd$sf6$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <bv8g67$mp1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > 7 >>Well you did a remarkably good job of showing in your 9 >>first post that if you had heard of EAL that you didn'tu >>know what it was.  >  > J >    I said it was a joke.  Others have confirmed it.  I still say it is a
 >    joke. > 8 
Many thanks!!  That's really helpful.  And good luck in Oz.


"lenaro_w" <member8260@britishexpats.com> wrote in message
news:633826.1044113197@britishexpats.com...
>
> I went down to Australia House yesterday and submitted my PR forms.
> After 45 minute wait I got our passports back with the Visa's attached.
> My wife is an australian citizen and is very impatient so we submitted a
> front end loaded application. I checked the paperwork 3 times on
> Thursday night just to make sure all of it was filled in correctley. I
> just wish everyone good luck in their applications and get the kind of
> buzz that we felt yesterday after getting the good news.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com


^~00001056:0000042960:033959:From: Alan Collett <alanc@gomatilda.co.uk>
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.australia+nz
Subject: Re: FAQ
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Tony,

Not as extensive as Jeremy's but:
http://www.gomatilda.com/visas/faqs.cfm

Best regards.




Originally posted by T Arboleda 
> Do you have an FAQ to post on this newsgroup?
>
Tony 

--
Alan Collett of Go Matilda, http://www.gomatilda.com


Posted via http://britishexpats.com
^~00000968:0000042961:033959:From: Ginny <member3188@britishexpats.com>
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.australia+nz
Subject: Watt Dabney
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Hi there Paula,

Saw your name on the who's logged on bit and thought about you all the
way over there.

How's things going in NZ?  Is everyone managing to settle down a wee
bit?

Hope all's well.

Ginny

--
Posted via http://britishexpats.com
^~00001402:0000042962:033959:From: "Margot" <margot@no-spam.com>
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.australia+nz
Subject: verifying true relationship - spouse visa
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