0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 31 Jan 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 60      Contents: Re: $SETUAI() Query/Problem  Re: $SETUAI() Query/Problem  Re: $SETUAI() Query/Problem  Re: CHARON-VAX licesning Re: CHARON-VAX licesning RE: CHARON-VAX licesning Re: CHARON-VAX licesning RE: CHARON-VAX licesning Re: CHARON-VAX licesning Re: CHARON-VAX licesning RE: CHARON-VAX licesning Re: CHARON-VAX licesning RE: CHARON-VAX licesning RE: CHARON-VAX licesning/ Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving? / Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving? / Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving? / Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving? / Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving? / Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving? / Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?  Re: DCL questions  Re: Do you need F$LICENSE? FTP with SSL support Re: FTP with SSL support Re: FTP with SSL support Hobbyist questions?  Hobbyist questions?  RE: Hobbyist questions? ' Re: HOW TO CONNECT TO VMS USING TCP-IP?  Re: HTML posting Re: HTML postingP Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications  performance         P RE: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance         oP Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance         oP Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance         oP Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance on ItaniuB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapB Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheap: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!3 Re: Jacques Chirac and taking the high moral ground 3 Re: Jacques Chirac and taking the high moral ground  Re: JF goes to MIT' Moderate this group (was: HTML posting) + Re: Moderate this group (was: HTML posting)  More photos like this..  Open VMS for Alpha Re: Open VMS for Alpha Re: Open VMS for AlphaF OpenVMS vs unix security ... Andrew, the IBM guy awaits your response! Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ? Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ? Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ? RE: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ? Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars  Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars # Re: Searching for DECps information # Re: Searching for DECps information # Re: Searching for DECps information # Re: Slow volume under Fibre Channel  Re: SMG$ examples in Pascal...? Re: Terry, when Palmers involved you seal the deal on the spot! , Re: The raping of rec.travel.air by JF Mezei, Re: The raping of rec.travel.air by JF Mezei/ Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / RE: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! / Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 13:03:34 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: $SETUAI() Query/Problem3 Message-ID: <m258zcrWBUyC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <iZidnUd-geh-54fd4p2dnA@brightview.com>, "covendotartdottalk21dotcom" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:  > A > However, when I attempt to use $SETUAI() or $GETUAI, the system C > services always seem to pick up the definition in the SYSTEM name  > table, not the PROCESS one.   @    If I was writing $SETUAI or $GETUAI it almost certainly would6    not use process, group, or job logical name tables.  F    IIRC these routines are supposed to access THE system authorizationI    file (ergo the one currently being used by LOGINOUT), not some random  .    file that happens to be in the same format.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 16:29:20 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: $SETUAI() Query/Problem3 Message-ID: <owaUX4dF8GaK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <iZidnUd-geh-54fd4p2dnA@brightview.com>, "covendotartdottalk21dotcom" <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:   G > I'm writing some software that is intended to run on NODEA and change D > passwords on NODEB, but avoiding sending the password in cleartext@ > form across the network to NODEB (i.e. NOT some kind of remote' > submission of MC AUTHORIZE commands).   E > From within a program (DEC C), I can quite happily create a logical D > name of SYSUAF with a value of NODEB::SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT in the7 > process name table, in supervisor mode on NODEA with:   A > However, when I attempt to use $SETUAI() or $GETUAI, the system C > services always seem to pick up the definition in the SYSTEM name  > table, not the PROCESS one.   A But if that _did_ work, what gives you the slightest hint that it F would meet hour goal of "avoiding sending the password in cleartext" ?  A > My point is that if you define the logical, then you can use it @ > with MC AUTHORIZE and it works, but not if you call the system2 > services directly - i.e. inconsistent behaviour.  ? What makes you think MCR AUTHORIZE uses those system services ? 3 It can do wildcards and the system services cannot.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:13:50 -0500 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> $ Subject: Re: $SETUAI() Query/Problem0 Message-ID: <ad6dnX9EqrC4eIfdRVn-hA@comcast.com>  E I seem to recall that the logicals used by SYSUAF must be defined in  C EXECUTIVE_MODE.   They need not be in the system table but must be  D /EXEC.  This applies to  SYSUAF, RIGHTSLIST, NETPROXY and NET$PROXY.  ! covendotartdottalk21dotcom wrote:   G >I was wondering whether or not anyone might be able to point me in the # >direction of the error of my ways?  > F >I'm writing some software that is intended to run on NODEA and changeC >passwords on NODEB, but avoiding sending the password in cleartext ? >form across the network to NODEB (i.e. NOT some kind of remote & >submission of MC AUTHORIZE commands). > C >When I define SYSUAF locally on NODEA within DCL (making sure I do 6 >/PROCESS to avoid causing anyone else problems) to be= >NODEB::SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT, I can then quite happily do MC E >AUTHORIZE, and examine/modify NODEB's UAF (NODEB has a proxy defined & >for the account I am using on NODEA). > D >From within a program (DEC C), I can quite happily create a logicalC >name of SYSUAF with a value of NODEB::SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT in the 6 >process name table, in supervisor mode on NODEA with: > B >    SYS$CRELNM() (if I give the account on NODEA the SYSNAM priv)D >    LIB$SET_LOGICAL() (if the account on NODEA does not have SYSNAM >                       priv)  > $ >or in executive mode on NODEA with: > B >    SYS$CRELNM() (if I give the account on NODEA the SYSNAM priv) >  > @ >However, when I attempt to use $SETUAI() or $GETUAI, the systemB >services always seem to pick up the definition in the SYSTEM name >table, not the PROCESS one. > B >Am I trying to achieve the impossible, or is there something that? >you need to set up in order to get $SETUAI()/$GETUAI() to play  >ball? > @ >My point is that if you define the logical, then you can use it? >with MC AUTHORIZE and it works, but not if you call the system 1 >services directly - i.e. inconsistent behaviour.  > > >I've probably missed out some step that I can't see in any ofC >the documentation I've looked at (specifically system services and = >RTL LIB$ manuals, I didn't check if the OVMS Security manual > >discusses $SETUAI/$GETUAI calls, and I'm not in a position to: >check that just now), so I'm quite happy to be corrected! >  > 	 >Regards,  >  >  >Mark. >  >  >    >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:31:07 +0100 2 From: Wilm Boerhout <w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl>! Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning * Message-ID: <bvebj9$nau$1@reader10.wxs.nl>  I HP, at least in the Netherlands, and the authorized VAX (VMS) resellers,  E can still be induced to quote a 3100/98 VAX/VMS base license, or any  I other VAX/VMS or LP license, for that matter. Just find a reseller or HP   rep from the days of old.    --  
 Wilm Boerhout    wilmOLD@PAINTboerhout.nl(    (remove OLD PAINT from reply address)   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > Tom Linden wrote:  > A >> Sorry, I meant the VMS license.  No such info on the web site.  >>   >>E > Auh, no.  Since HP doesn't sell VAX hardware anymore, except maybe  J > refurbs, that is a real good question...  Perhaps Sue @ HP could answer  > that?  >  > Barry  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:04:08 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>! Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning - Message-ID: <401A8078.17189.43A841@localhost>   - On 30 Jan 2004 at 20:31, Wilm Boerhout wrote: ? > HP, at least in the Netherlands, and the authorized VAX (VMS) A > resellers, can still be induced to quote a 3100/98 VAX/VMS base D > license, or any other VAX/VMS or LP license, for that matter. Just1 > find a reseller or HP rep from the days of old.   D There's days I feel positively ancient, but I wasn't a rep from the 2 days of old.  But I could still get you a price...  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:22:46 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ! Subject: RE: CHARON-VAX licesning 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEEOJCLAA.tom@kednos.com>   > Stan,  how does one get a quote for VAX VMS workgroup license?0 Is there a price schedule with volume discounts?     -----Original Message-----9   From: Stanley F. Quayle [mailto:squayle@insight.rr.com] (   Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:04 PM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com #   Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning       /   On 30 Jan 2004 at 20:31, Wilm Boerhout wrote: A   > HP, at least in the Netherlands, and the authorized VAX (VMS) C   > resellers, can still be induced to quote a 3100/98 VAX/VMS base F   > license, or any other VAX/VMS or LP license, for that matter. Just3   > find a reseller or HP rep from the days of old.    F   There's days I feel positively ancient, but I wasn't a rep from the 4   days of old.  But I could still get you a price...      --Stan Quayle    Quayle Consulting Inc.      ----------E   Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 3   8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 ?   Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com          --- (   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004    --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:16:46 +0100 2 From: Wilm Boerhout <w.boerhoutOLD@PAINTplanet.nl>! Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning ) Message-ID: <bvehtq$ra$1@reader11.wxs.nl>   D Good for you Stan. OK, you're not old, but can be trusted anyway :-)     Stanley F. Quayle wrote:/ > On 30 Jan 2004 at 20:31, Wilm Boerhout wrote:  > ? >>HP, at least in the Netherlands, and the authorized VAX (VMS) A >>resellers, can still be induced to quote a 3100/98 VAX/VMS base D >>license, or any other VAX/VMS or LP license, for that matter. Just1 >>find a reseller or HP rep from the days of old.  >  > F > There's days I feel positively ancient, but I wasn't a rep from the 4 > days of old.  But I could still get you a price... >  > --Stan Quayle  > Quayle Consulting Inc. >  > ----------E > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 3 > 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 ? > Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com  >  >    --  
 Wilm Boerhout    wilmOLD@PAINTboerhout.nl(    (remove OLD PAINT from reply address)   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 16:24:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ! Subject: RE: CHARON-VAX licesning 3 Message-ID: <SjSTF5W1XOt8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIGENMCLAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: G > For traditional HW, if you lose a pak you can obtain a replacement by  > giving the serial number.   E I would presume a CHARON-VAX license has a serial number, which would G be an exact analog - a number associated with the processor that cannot  be queried by software.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 16:25:14 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ! Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning 3 Message-ID: <higPYqLUriGv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <401A8F3F.3050204@MMaz.com>, "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> writes:  > Tom Linden wrote:  > @ >>Sorry, I meant the VMS license.  No such info on the web site. >>   >>E > Auh, no.  Since HP doesn't sell VAX hardware anymore, except maybe  * > refurbs, that is a real good question...  D Give the part number you want to anyone with a BusinessLink account.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:44:43 +0100 " From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>! Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning 4 Message-ID: <401adef8$0$22318$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote:  >  >> In looking at the following >>A >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.html  >>D >> The fees for transferring the license are given.  But what if youJ >> don't have a license to transfer, but need a new one.  Do you buy a new0 >> one?  And how do you do that for an emulator? >>   >>H > VMS sees the system as a VAX 3100/98, so you would purchase a license $ > and media for that sized system...  M No. The CHARON-VAX emulator program is a replacement solution for an already  Q existing VAX with its licenses. HP sells the rights to transfer the software and  ) the licenses to CHARON-VAX. Nothing else.   N CHARON-VAX, or PC boxes with CHARON-VAX pre-installed such like the FutureVAX N (www.futurevax.com), are not intended to be sold as "new computers" for which * you would purchase VMS and other licenses.   D. FutureVAX reseller --  2 VAXUS - Your new helpful friend in the DEC Family!2 EHQ: 19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France/       Phone: +336 7983 6418 Fax: +335 6154 1928 $                 http://www.vaxus.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:30:50 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ! Subject: RE: CHARON-VAX licesning 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEEOMCLAA.tom@kednos.com>      -----Original Message-----+   From: Didier Morandi [mailto:no@spam.com] (   Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 2:45 PM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com #   Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning        Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:     > Tom Linden wrote:    >     >> In looking at the following   >>C   >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.html    >>F   >> The fees for transferring the license are given.  But what if youL   >> don't have a license to transfer, but need a new one.  Do you buy a new2   >> one?  And how do you do that for an emulator?   >>   >>I   > VMS sees the system as a VAX 3100/98, so you would purchase a license &   > and media for that sized system...  C   No. The CHARON-VAX emulator program is a replacement solution for    an alreadyA   existing VAX with its licenses. HP sells the rights to transfer    the software and+   the licenses to CHARON-VAX. Nothing else.   I So what if I want to run Simh under Linux, but don't have an existing VAX H that I am replacing.  In other words, can I buy a VAX license from HP to use as I see fit?       A   CHARON-VAX, or PC boxes with CHARON-VAX pre-installed such like    the FutureVAX :   (www.futurevax.com), are not intended to be sold as "new   computers" for which,   you would purchase VMS and other licenses.     D.   FutureVAX reseller   --4   VAXUS - Your new helpful friend in the DEC Family!4   EHQ: 19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France1         Phone: +336 7983 6418 Fax: +335 6154 1928 &                   http://www.vaxus.org     --- (   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:50:44 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> ! Subject: Re: CHARON-VAX licesning ' Message-ID: <401AEDD4.7080107@MMaz.com>    Didier Morandi wrote:    > Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: >  >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> In looking at the following  >>> B >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.html >>> E >>> The fees for transferring the license are given.  But what if you K >>> don't have a license to transfer, but need a new one.  Do you buy a new 1 >>> one?  And how do you do that for an emulator?  >>>    >>> I >> VMS sees the system as a VAX 3100/98, so you would purchase a license  % >> and media for that sized system...  >  > G > No. The CHARON-VAX emulator program is a replacement solution for an  ) > already existing VAX with its licenses.   F You are not reading the postings, Tom asked 'what if you don't have a E license to transfer, but need a new one.' That is the question I was   answering...   Barry      --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:58:10 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>! Subject: RE: CHARON-VAX licesning , Message-ID: <401AC562.401.150DA9F@localhost>  / On 30 Jan 2004 at 16:24, Larry Kilgallen wrote: G > I would presume a CHARON-VAX license has a serial number, which would B > be an exact analog - a number associated with the processor that  > cannot be queried by software.  D CHARON-VAX keys have serial numbers, but they can't be queried from C inside the VAX environment.  CHARON-VAX completely emulates a VAX,  & including its lack of a serial number.  D On a VAX, the serial number on the box could be traced to establish E ownership -- so that license transfer could be recorded.  There's no  E such mechanism for a software VAX.  HP's happy getting their $2000.   , Heck, they don't even ask for the old PAK's.  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:06:56 -0500 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>! Subject: RE: CHARON-VAX licesning - Message-ID: <401AC770.3254.158E23C@localhost>   * On 30 Jan 2004 at 13:22, Tom Linden wrote:@ > Stan,  how does one get a quote for VAX VMS workgroup license?2 > Is there a price schedule with volume discounts?  @ Yes, there is.  But it's not on the web.  But, with the product 3 number, I can call the right number to get a quote.   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------C Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363  Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:36:36 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?- Message-ID: <87hdydwaff.fsf@prep.synonet.com>    sms@antinode.org writes:  C >    Rebooting the first one "fixes" the problem, but that's seldom C > convenient.  (ALP is an AlpSta 200 4/233 with a DE500.  ALP2 is a  > PWS 500a.)  B Welcome to the improved post MSCP world. SCSI devices are not autoC discovered by the configuration poller unless you prod it to do so.   E Both nodes are running the poller arn't they? If not, I think you can A use STARTUP.COM to start/restart it. See the file for details. :)    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 30 JAN 2004 19:24:48 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> 8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?2 Message-ID: <30JAN04.19244856@feda34.fed.ornl.gov>  . In a previous article, sms@antinode.org wrote: [snip]C > >      If the first node doesn't have a process named "CONFIGURE" $ > > running then it's not listening. > > % > > $ @sys$system:startup "CONFIGURE"  >   H >    Neither system has a process named "CONFIGURE".  One of us seems to? > be confused about what to expect from 'SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM  > "CONFIGURE"'.   H I vote for this being the problem.  IIRC, CONFIGURE is what looks to seeD if remote devices have become available and adds them to the currentD configuration.  If you don't have CONFIGURE running, the node that'sH already running doesn't have any way to discover that new remote devices have become available.  D Try the "startup configure" suggestion on the node that doesn't show. the remote disks and let us know what happens.  G CONFIGURE is started by SYS$STARTUP:VMS$INITIAL-050_CONFIGURE.COM.  You E might look at that to see why you don't have a CONFIGURE process.  Or = look at sys$manager:configure_error.log to see if it crashed.    Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:22:53 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.org8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?) Message-ID: <04013013225360@antinode.org>   , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  D > Welcome to the improved post MSCP world. SCSI devices are not autoE > discovered by the configuration poller unless you prod it to do so.       Configuration poller?  G > Both nodes are running the poller arn't they? If not, I think you can C > use STARTUP.COM to start/restart it. See the file for details. :)   E    I don't see anything anywhere (including on the non-first systems) G which suggests anything like this.  If you do, please offer more clues.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 11:39:35 -0800* From: denny.rich@swagelok.com (Denny Rich)8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?< Message-ID: <d28306e.0401301139.53f402bf@posting.google.com>  > One thing you can do to test this is to, in modparams.dat, set, STARTUP_P2 to "D".  Then autogen and reboot.E    Actually, if you set this in sys$common:[sysexe]cluster_params.dat E and make sure you have this line in each of your modparams.dat files: F AGEN$INCLUDE_PARAMS SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]CLUSTER_PARAMS.DAT, you can putA the startup_p2 thing into cluster_params.dat, a cleaner approach. C    This setting causes all of the otherwise-console output from the = startup process to go to SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.LOG. for example:   7   STARTUP.LOG;18            27  23-JAN-2004 14:05:11.62   C I have a line in systartup_vms.com that purges this back to a small  number of versions.   B This file is useful if you have trouble booting!!!  2 weeks ago, IE used it to find a faulty NFS mount file that was aborting the startup 6 process. nasty stuff!  this is a really helpful trick.   regards    denny     G sms@antinode.org wrote in message news:<04013001130349@antinode.org>... * > From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) > G > > >    Rebooting the first one "fixes" the problem, but that's seldom K > > > convenient.  (ALP is an AlpSta 200 4/233 with a DE500.  ALP2 is a PWS  > > > 500a.) > >  > > Why not: > > ) > > $ MOUNT /SYSTEM /CLUSTER device label  > H >    Because you can't mount it if it's not there.  In my start-up stuffJ > there's a procedure to loop through all the cluster members (F$CSID) andJ > do exactly this for the disks in the SYS$MANAGER:LOCAL_DISKS.DAT file on. > each one.  So, it fails just like this, too: > H > ALP $ MOUNT /CLUSTER ALP2$DKA0: VMS073ALP2  !! The default is /SYSTEM.. > %MOUNT-F-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available >  > > OR > >  > > $ MCR SYSMAN IO AUTO > 0 >    Not much good for devices on other systems. >  > ALP $ sysman io auto > ALP $ sh dev dk  > R > Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free  Trans MntR >  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count CntR > ALP$DKA0:               Mounted              0  VMS073ALP     13840400   931   20 > ALP$DKA400:             Online wrtlck        0 > P > > Not sure if this helps - do not have a test system to work on at the moment. >   >   Thanks, but trust me.  Next? > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org  >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:52:25 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?. Message-ID: <bveclp$i8s$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  m sms@antinode.org writes in article <04013012352222@antinode.org> dated Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:35:22 -0600 (CST):  >From: norm.raphael@metso.com  > & >> Could this be related to ALLOCLASS? > H >   I don't see how.  Every disk is strictly local, and two out of three" >systems are as happy as bivalves.  K I'm on the CONFIGURE bandwagon now.  Why isn't that process running on your I systems?  It's running on all of my cluster systems but not my standalone  ones.   + >   But I'm always open to a good argument.   6 Reasons to use a non-zero ALLOCLASS or PORT ALLOCLASS:    * Required for volume shadowing.   * Required for SCSI cluster.  K * If you leave it 0 for now and change it later, and forget to dismount one I or more affected disks when you make the change, your entire cluster will % crash when the changed node re-joins.   5 * Saves typing (assuming you use single-digit values)   0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:29:15 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.org8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?) Message-ID: <04013013291582@antinode.org>   + From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>   J > >    Neither system has a process named "CONFIGURE".  One of us seems toA > > be confused about what to expect from 'SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.COM  > > "CONFIGURE"'.   )    I may be the confused one here.  Sigh.   J > I vote for this being the problem.  IIRC, CONFIGURE is what looks to seeF > if remote devices have become available and adds them to the currentF > configuration.  If you don't have CONFIGURE running, the node that'sJ > already running doesn't have any way to discover that new remote devices > have become available.  B    Please note, however, that when the VAXstation was started, the; non-first Alpha saw its disks, but the first Alpha did not.   4 ALP2 $ pipe show system | search sys$input configure' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched   4 WUSS $ pipe show system | search sys$input configure' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matched   F > Try the "startup configure" suggestion on the node that doesn't show0 > the remote disks and let us know what happens.  E    Hmmm.  After "@ SYS$STARTUP:VMS$INITIAL-050_CONFIGURE.COM", I have @ the CONFIGURE process on that node, and the missing devices have= appeared.  (And now "@ sys$system:startup configure", gives a B %RUN-F-CREPRC / -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM complaint, so that seems to work properly, too.)   3 ALP $ pipe show system | search sys$input configure M 20200486 CONFIGURE       HIB     10       55   0 00:00:00.20        41     18   I > CONFIGURE is started by SYS$STARTUP:VMS$INITIAL-050_CONFIGURE.COM.  You G > might look at that to see why you don't have a CONFIGURE process.  Or ? > look at sys$manager:configure_error.log to see if it crashed.   ) ALP $ dir sys$manager:configure_error.log ! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found   C    "STARTUP$CLUSTER_MEMBER" = "TRUE" (now), so it might have run at @ start-up, and the /ERROR output is still missing, so it's always successful (when it runs).  D    I must review the action at start-up to see who's trying what (or0 not) and why the CONFIGURE process does not run.  F    Thanks all.  (Or at least most.)  I'll report back when I know moreB (though it may take some effort to avoid disruptions to my primary system).  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:54:14 -0600 (CST)  From: sms@antinode.org8 Subject: Re: Cluster mystery: one-way MSCP disk serving?) Message-ID: <04013015541400@antinode.org>   , From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)  M > I'm on the CONFIGURE bandwagon now.  Why isn't that process running on your K > systems?  It's running on all of my cluster systems but not my standalone  > ones.   >    It's a consensus, and I believe that I've found the reason.  G    Once upon a time, I got tired of the spurious SCSI every-LUN devices H associated with my (apparently lame) Yamaha CRW4416S CD-R/RW drive, so IE followed the hints and created a SYS$MANAGER:SYCONFIG.COM which said:   & $       STARTUP$AUTOCONFIGURE_ALL == 0 $! $ mcr sysman4    io connect fta0 /noadapter /driver = sys$ftdriver6    io connect mpa0 /noadapter /driver = sys$pipedriver&    io autoconfigure /exclude = (dka5*)&    io autoconfigure /select = (dka500)    exit   F (I suspect that I did the corresponding thing on the VAXstation, too.)  H    This gave me a nice DKA500: without the usual DKA501: - DKA507: whichE appear if a plain "sysman io autoconfigure" (or "sysgen autoconfigure  all") is used.  )    The comments in the template file say:   E $!      Remove the comment from the line below if you wish to prevent C $!      VMS from configuring devices with a SYSMAN IO AUTOCONFIGURE F $!      command.  This is typically only required if you are debugging $!      new device drivers.  $!& $!      STARTUP$AUTOCONFIGURE_ALL == 0  F What the comments in the template file do _not_ say is that that's not3 _all_ it does, and that the other thing is to cause B SYS$STARTUP:VMS$DEVICE_STARTUP.COM to skip over the critical line:  C $if .not. startup$autoconfigure_all .or. f$getsyi("NOAUTOCONFIG") -  then goto configure_started ' $@sys$startup:vms$initial-050_configure  $configure_started:   A    So, it appears that I just need to drag that bit of code up to F SYS$MANAGER:SYCONFIG.COM, and all should be well again, at long last. G When I made my original SYS$MANAGER:SYCONFIG.COM, I did manage to steal 6 the "fta0" and "mpa0" stuff, but I failed to steal the; "@sys$startup:vms$initial-050_configure" thing, too.  Sigh.    --------  8 > Reasons to use a non-zero ALLOCLASS or PORT ALLOCLASS: > " > * Required for volume shadowing.      No plans.   > * Required for SCSI cluster.  G    No plans.  (I sold off my one KZPBA-CY, and there are not enough PCI E slots in the AlpSta 200 4/233 for graphics, fast Ethernet, and a SCSI  card.)  M > * If you leave it 0 for now and change it later, and forget to dismount oneHK > or more affected disks when you make the change, your entire cluster willH' > crash when the changed node re-joins.i  H    If I ever have a reason to change it, I'll probably crash the cluster$ repeatedly for a variety of reasons.  7 > * Saves typing (assuming you use single-digit values)t  D    This _is_ a powerful argument, and it's why all my node names areE three or four characters long, but with non-shared disks, I'd have toeG remember which box "$1" was in.  I can puzzle out "ALP$" easily enough, E but with non-zero allocation classes, I'd need many more Post-it (tm)C@ notes than I do now.  (And now I save one use of the Shift key.)  E    Thanks again to the helpers for the useful help on this particularo bafflement.o  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:34:23 -0500s3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: DCL questions0 Message-ID: <NJydnfXpnpFrdIfd4p2dnA@comcast.com>   Try this for SCRIPT1  @ $ SEARCH SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG /WINDOW=(0,1) /OUTPUT=XX.TMP -/     'F$CVTIME("YESTERDAY", "ABSOLUTE", "DATE")'.   For SCRIPT2eE You can get a Ctrl-E character into your file with the sequence GOLD  % <keyboard 5> GOLD SPECINS (keypad 3).l   AMIT wrote:    >hello all,lE >I am tryin to write two DCL scripts. I have some problems, and wouldn >appreciate any help I get.8 >!B >SCRIPT1: I would like to read a log file which contains a list of> >events with timestamps. Only events from yestartday should be9 >extracted into another text file, which would be mailed.o >  27-jan-2004 14:00:02T >       fsdfsdfdsfdfdfdfst >  28-jan-2004 12:00:00i >       sample2,sample2iG >  Only entries from yesterday need to be extracted. How can I do this?  >nE >SCRIPT2: We use CA's CONSOLE application to check controllers. Using C >CONSOLE CONNECT xxxx, I generally check the controller, then pressc >Ctrl/E to exit.1 >if I need to do this using DCL, how can I do it?r >$console connect xxyyzz >show failed >show this_controller G >ctrl/E<<<<---------- This doesn't work. I need to send the applicationW >Ctrl-E  >$exit >( >) >Thanks in advance >bye >AS. >  e >u   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:14:06 +0800n, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com># Subject: Re: Do you need F$LICENSE?o- Message-ID: <87y8rpwbgx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>M  1 Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> writes:o   >> And how is that?o  C > Well, the exact details are expunged from the listings CD, but ifiF > you look between the lines carefully, you can identify the mechanism > they use.E  , Well, a little excersise to get you started.  , What DCL command has an obvious missing bit?   -- h< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:53:24 -0800R- From: Kaleb Pederson <kpederson@mail.ewu.edu>r Subject: FTP with SSL support 2 Message-ID: <200401301353.24479.kpederson@ewu.edu>  M Does anybody know if there is an FTP server/client for OpenVMS that supports wM FTP w/SSL?  Are there any plans to have the native OpenVMS ftp server/client t support SSL?   Thanks.i   --KalebM   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:57:22 +0100E From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>! Subject: Re: FTP with SSL supporto2 Message-ID: <bveo9m$3ms$1@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   Kaleb Pederson wrote:mO > Does anybody know if there is an FTP server/client for OpenVMS that supports  O > FTP w/SSL?  Are there any plans to have the native OpenVMS ftp server/client - > support SSL? > 	 > Thanks.6 > 	 > --KalebrJ You can have a look at SFTP in the SSH package of TCP/IP V5.4 . It is not  perfect, but it works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:45:24 -0800b- From: Kaleb Pederson <kpederson@mail.ewu.edu>o! Subject: Re: FTP with SSL support'2 Message-ID: <200401301545.24669.kpederson@ewu.edu>  4 On Friday 30 January 2004 02:57 pm, Dirk Munk wrote:K > You can have a look at SFTP in the SSH package of TCP/IP V5.4 . It is nots > perfect, but it works.  K I'm working with a client that doesn't have SFTP support on their end, and i= hence need a FTP client with SSL support, if at all possible.N   --KalebY   > Kaleb Pederson wrote:rG > > Does anybody know if there is an FTP server/client for OpenVMS that K > > supports FTP w/SSL?  Are there any plans to have the native OpenVMS ftpi > > server/client support SSL? > >m > > Thanks.n > >e > > --Kaleb  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:27:47 -0600e' From: "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com>s Subject: Hobbyist questions?) Message-ID: <401b0562_2@news1.prserv.net>n   Hellou  E I applied for the associate membership with http://www.montagar.com/.   : Where does one acquire the CD-Roms for VMS 7.3-2 and such?  I I understand I'll receive the hobbyist licenses and such after I register ; with HP, which will happen when I receive my membership ID.-  
 Just curious.,   RD   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:47:36 -0600 (CST)j From: sms@antinode.org Subject: Hobbyist questions?) Message-ID: <04013019473632@antinode.org>e  ' From: "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com>b  G > I applied for the associate membership with http://www.montagar.com/.m > < > Where does one acquire the CD-Roms for VMS 7.3-2 and such?  0    The latest Hobbyist CD-ROMs are available at:  .    http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html  C    They include VMS V7.3-1 and V7.3 (VAX), et c.  If you want newermD stuff before the next Hobbyist kit (or a major change at HP), you'llA need to find someone who can sell/lease/rent/loan/lose it to you.   F    If you disclose your location with a request, it's common to find aE cooperative news group colleague.  Things appear on Ebay from time toD time.i      Welcome aboard.  Have fun.S  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgf    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547D   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:04:32 -0800c# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>O  Subject: RE: Hobbyist questions?9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEPACLAA.tom@kednos.com>        -----Original Message-----4     From: sms@antinode.org [mailto:sms@antinode.org]*     Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 5:48 PM     To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com       Subject: Hobbyist questions?    +     From: "Russ Dittmer" <russ@dittmer.com>t  K     > I applied for the associate membership with http://www.montagar.com/.S     > @     > Where does one acquire the CD-Roms for VMS 7.3-2 and such?  4        The latest Hobbyist CD-ROMs are available at:  2        http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html  G        They include VMS V7.3-1 and V7.3 (VAX), et c.  If you want neweroH     stuff before the next Hobbyist kit (or a major change at HP), you'llE     need to find someone who can sell/lease/rent/loan/lose it to you.s  J        If you disclose your location with a request, it's common to find aI     cooperative news group colleague.  Things appear on Ebay from time tok	     time.i  K   Yes but if you don't have adequate bandwidth it can take quite time, evenu   with zipped iso images  K   -rw-r--r--   1 root     ftp      250207809 Dec 23 07:00 alp0732lp-iso.zip'K   -rw-r--r--   1 root     ftp      270746431 Dec 23 07:00 alpha0732-iso.zip       !        Welcome aboard.  Have fun.   L     ------------------------------------------------------------------------  8        Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98187        382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orge!        Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547V       ---r*     Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.>     Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).D     Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004     --- (   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ---o& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 12:57:03 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 0 Subject: Re: HOW TO CONNECT TO VMS USING TCP-IP?3 Message-ID: <E$oO4U8Xxyw9@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  X In article <7b80c3dc.0401300207.4f2c7a46@posting.google.com>, t_pantel@yahoo.com writes:D > In my company we use DECnet Pathworks socket libraries in order toH > open links to VMS. The client side application running on Windows 2000C > opens links to the server side application running in VMS using aeF > special Pathworks function named SktDnetConn providing as parametersF > the login name, password, host and the appropriate command procedureF > name that it loads on VMS. What is going to be implemented now is toC > use the TCP-IP protocol instead of Pathworks in order to run thish > procedure.  ;    Guess what DECnet does off the shelf that IP doesn't do?   ,    You get to write your very own IP server.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 22:05:19 -0000 From: Get Real <get@real.now>: Subject: Re: HTML posting 7 Message-ID: <JG7NJB0M38016.6703587963@anonymous.poster>   + J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:    >rN > Binary articles contain information which is in a form not directly readable >by humans, usually H > in "base64" or "UUENCODE" sections. These are usually "attachments" of >images, executable K > files, sounds, or proprietary  format documents such as Microsoft Word or  >Excel. Even if the3I > attachment within the article was originally  simple text or a web pageo >(HTML), if it has been A > encoded before posting it is still considered to be a "binary".i   Snip rest of crap.  K I just love the irony of you, a troll and Super Netkook who's been floodingtK groups with your trolls and anti-USA vitriol for more years than anyone cana count, preaching against HTML.   The hypocrisy of some kooks.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:02:09 GMT * From: Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> Subject: Re: HTML posting 6 Message-ID: <0001HW.BC404CA00065EEF9F00805B0@shawnews>  2 On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:05:19 -0800, Get Real wrote9 (in message <JG7NJB0M38016.6703587963@anonymous.poster>):F   > The hypocrisy of some kooks.  N I don't think I've ever seen a bigger kook than you, assuming you've been the M guy anonymously cross posting this shit to low traffic newsgroups. Why don't yK you try posting with your real news server and email and see if your ISP's t  abuse department agrees with me?  L I have to admit, I had no opinion of the guy you're trying to expose before N you started this. But now, I have nothing but respect for him, simply because 4 the enemy of my enemy at least *might* be my friend.  0 Follow-ups sniped. Again. Stop spamming, fucker.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 01:11:12 -0500W* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications  performance         a2 Message-ID: <BPGdncX6Vu9w24bd4p2dnA@metrocast.net>  7 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com> wrote in message " news:401ACDA2.9BD6FEE@istop.com...J > >   applications will be carried out in software. At run time, the IA-32I > >   Execution Layer software translates the IA-32 application code into K > >   native Itanium architecture code and allows it to run as native code.  >6L > Considering that half the IA64 architecture resides in the EPIC compilers, isK > it fair to state that any code compiled on and for 8086 would not be able  takeK > advantage of any of the fancy performance stuff of IA64 since there woulde be/ > no explicit parralelism built into the code ?e  J Actually, a software mechanism (akin to FX!32) *can* probably mung what itK interprets from the x86 binary code to take more advantage of EPIC featuressL (such as they are) than the current hardware emulation can.  That may be one, of the reasons it's faster, for that matter.  L IIRC FX!32 had a profiling-like facility which could massage the munged codeI based on execution characteristics.  Now, I think that I vaguely remembercH that the new Itanic software emulator doesn't produce a permanent nativeI binary (to keep with the x86 binary), but I also seem to remember that iteI *may* still improve the native binary as it executes.  Oh, hell - someone L who actually knows something about all this would be a much better source of( information than I am:  anyone?  Anyone?   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 16:41:36 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)uY Subject: RE: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance         o 3 Message-ID: <KBvsCkdsMoxN@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  _ In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEEOECLAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:-G > No offense inteded, Keith, but I fail to see what this has to do withiH > VMS.  Moreover, If I want to run W2K, why spend the extra $s for IA64?  A I had presumed that Keith's comment was intended to combat recentiA claims in this newsgroup that Microsoft would not support Itanium0A and thus VMS was doomed because Itanium chip volume would be low.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:33:47 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Y Subject: Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance         os( Message-ID: <401ACDA2.9BD6FEE@istop.com>  H >   applications will be carried out in software. At run time, the IA-32G >   Execution Layer software translates the IA-32 application code intowI >   native Itanium architecture code and allows it to run as native code.i  M Considering that half the IA64 architecture resides in the EPIC compilers, isrN it fair to state that any code compiled on and for 8086 would not be able takeL advantage of any of the fancy performance stuff of IA64 since there would be- no explicit parralelism built into the code ?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:46:41 -0500o* From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>Y Subject: Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance         o-) Message-ID: <401B16E2.436D132A@istop.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:C > I had presumed that Keith's comment was intended to combat recentBC > claims in this newsgroup that Microsoft would not support Itanium C > and thus VMS was doomed because Itanium chip volume would be low.   > The provision of some form of software emulator says 2 things:  @ 1-The hardware emulator that was to e part of IA64 is a failure.N 2-You're going to need the emulator because not enough software will be ported native to IA64.i  L It also depends on how Microsoft implements the emulator in Windows. Will itJ be like VEST, or will it be like Apple did it in its migration from 68k toG PowerPc ? (totally transparent to user, and granularity down to the VMSaL equivalent of shareable images (you could have a native main program with an' old 68k shareable image or vice versa).z   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:23:52 -0800t* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>Y Subject: Re: Intel and Microsoft provide higher 32-bit applications performance on ItaniuN2 Message-ID: <0fadndFn_qr0VofdRVn-tA@mpowercom.net>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0401301042.2fbad66c@posting.google.com...sE > Intel and Microsoft release new technology for HP Integrity serversn > by Jeff Kyle > F > Intel and Microsoft have released the IA-32 Execution Layer (EL) 4.3H > software driver for systems powered by the Intel Itanium 2 processor* > running Microsoft Windows Server 2003. > F Now that Intel is going to announce their version of AMD's X86-64 nextI month, isn't this a moot point, kinda like announcing improvements on the K x86 emulator for the Alpha?  Whatever happened to FX32 (was that the name)?i   Jack Peacock   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 01:49:00 +08000, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapi- Message-ID: <87brolxr77.fsf@prep.synonet.com>6  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:/  @ > If Itanium hits Xeon in price, surely the other big OEMs can'tA > continue to charge large $$$ for their CPUs (for instance 8-way:/ > Power4 MCMs list for $275000 out at tpc.org)..  A I'm glad you put the IF in there. Perhaps they could do it as ther? "Unobtainium 10th Birthday Special". Or perhaps they can have anC special, "Free CPU if you pay full list for your system and supporto
 contract."  ; > It wouldn't matter who or how mainframes become even lesstE > attractive, I'm just proposing Itanium would be a driver in sucking D > high margins out of hihg-end CPU prices.  If that occurs, it wouldE > impact mainframes and of course others that think they can continuea# > to charge large dollars for CPUs.   F You would also have the minor detail of not having years to decades of. experience and data on keeping the systems up.   I'll say it again:  @ Anyone who thinks ANYTHING is going to take over from mainframesC because it has better price or performance is off with the fairies.I   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 01:51:11 +0800-, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>K Subject: Re: Intel to chip away at Itanium prices <- or ... I want my cheapc- Message-ID: <877jz9xr3k.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   Q Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:f  @ >> Almost everything passed mainframes for CPU performance yearsE >> ago. IO performance is another matter, and only some get up there.   8 > Actually thats a bit of an urban myth fostered by IBM.    > Andrew, which of the letters E, M, O, or S do you have trouble understanding?   <chomp `some' stuff>   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:26:06 +08003, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>C Subject: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!-- Message-ID: <87ptd1wawx.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   Q Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:o  C > If you honestly think that HP's Enterprise Systems business could > > survive that and emerge unscathed you are deluding yourself.  D Well, perhaps. But I'll bet that a certain angelic choir of one will= be singing how wonderfull the x-64 is before the week is out.    -- 1< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.q@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:30:24 +0800g, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>C Subject: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!L- Message-ID: <87llnpwapr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:u  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  C >> If Itanium fails then HP's investment is basically worthless andhB >> for example the 8.x OpenVMS port to Itanium would have to start >> again for x86-64.  D > HP's investment in Itanium would probably be close to worthless inE > that event, but they do have a viable and relatively inexpensive in B > the whole-scheme-of-things fall-back position - releasing a realC > EV79 (something that could probably be done in 6 months time) andh@ > moving forward on EV8. HP still owns the intellectual propertyF > rights to that - they only licenced use to Intel.  HP needs only the@ > political will to execute it. Of course certain parties at theC > executive level will have to fall on their swords in the process.N  C Might be a bit hard. The EV8 team is broken up, and intel took over.B the Barcelona group that was doing Piranah. Whipping out a missingB EV79 would be a good start though. If nothing, it would indicate a1 small degree of hope that thing would go forward.i  F > Of course, the whole HP-UX thing would also then also take a turn inE > the direction it should have followed in the first place - renaming'C > Tru64 to HP-UX v15 and donating the insiginifcant worthwhile bitskD > from HP-UX 11/12.  And the NSK efforts would revert back to Alpha.   PHUX bits worth porting?  E > Not possibly speaking for VMS Engineering, but it's my opinion that'< > the porting effort to IA64, while regrettably delaying theE > introduction of many desireable features in VMS, has only served to D > help clean-up a lot of less efficient baggage that has accumulatedE > over the years.  I think that would only help if run on a real EV79h	 > or EV8.h  D Biggest problem is rebuilding the compiler and tool chain expertese.   -- f< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.O@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:02:37 -0500o* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>C Subject: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!b2 Message-ID: <ssKdnXdIn9OlN4fdRVn-vg@metrocast.net>  2 "Brian Chase" <bdc@world.std.com> wrote in message" news:bvcrr0$bco$1@pcls4.std.com...4 > In article <bvbham$ald$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>," > Dirk Munk  <munk@home.nl> wrote: > L > > What many of us have been predicting for the last couple of years now is goingaE > > to be a reality. Intel will have 64bit x86 cpu's. Please read the-	 following-) > > article from the news agency Reuters:- > >  > >S  L http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=4233918  ) >s3 > A similar story is being carried on news.com too:-2 > ( http://news.com.com/2100-1006_3-5150336.html ) >5" > ->  Intel shifts 64-bit emphasis > ->  By Stephen Shankland! > ->  Staff Writer, CNET News.com  > ->H > ->  Intel plans to demonstrate a 64-bit revamp of its Xeon and PentiumL > ->  processors in mid-February--an endorsement of a major rival's strategy; > ->  and a troubling development for Intel's Itanium chip.$  K Thanks - I hadn't seen that second article, with the explicit rumor about a ( planned Intel demo in a couple of weeks.  E I'm not about to start prancing around in a flight suit in front of atF "Mission Accomplished!" banner, but it really is starting to look likeI Truth, Justice, and at least what I'd like to think is still The AmericanSL Way may triumph after all over strong-arm market tactics and spin - a lessonL in the power of "Never surrender!" grassroots activism which I hope will notJ be lost on both corporate and political entities in this country (though IH fear it will take a few more repetitions before it *really* takes hold).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:25:52 -0500 * From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@istop.com>C Subject: Re: It is almost certain now, INTEL will have 64bit x86 !!@) Message-ID: <401ACBC8.9582D5A3@istop.com>b   David Svensson wrote:eH > Intel had desktop/mainstream plans for IA64 in the beginning, but that > changed in 1999-2001.L  J I wonder if that is when Intel realised that it had built a bloated overlyN complex lemon of epic proportions that would always cost a lot more to keep onJ improving than their much simpler 8086 toy controller which had sufficientK mass market to pay for the massive improvement that architecture has gottenS since the early 1980s.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 21:03:47 -0000 From: Get Real <get@real.now>u< Subject: Re: Jacques Chirac and taking the high moral ground7 Message-ID: <M5GCR9P838016.6276273148@anonymous.poster>t  + J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:    >Jerry Johnson wrote:L@ >> The oil ministry papers, described by the independent BaghdadH >> newspaper al-Mada, are apparently authentic and will become the basisG >> of an official investigation by the new Iraqi Governing Council, the " >> Independent reported Wednesday. >3M >"apparently authentic" is the keyword here. With an invading country that is J >far from neutral, and with no neutral observers to put credibility to any4 >findings, such reports must logically be dismissed. >-J >This is the same as the WMDs that they will find in September designed toG >bolster Bush Jr,s election prospects. The USA media will not cover any N >questioning from oustide the USA about the authenticity of such a find (sinceN >those will have been planted), so the american public will truly believe that2 >Bush was right and the idiot will get re-elected. > J >This is the same with the finding of Ossama which may happen in August orC >perhaps even October (since he is probably already under custody).t >FN >In terms of the oil, there was no secret that many countries had contracts toO >operate/fix the oil infrastructure in Iraq, and this includes France. And manytK >countries were vying for business in Iraq, including France trying to selltO >french-made cars to Iraqis. In the fall of 2002, there was a big trade fair intK >Bagdhad where many countries participated, trying to sell their wares. And K >yes, deals with Iraq were struck with gifts. But this is something that isS' >very common outside the western world.l   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 21:10:00 -0000 From: Get Real <get@real.now>d< Subject: Re: Jacques Chirac and taking the high moral ground7 Message-ID: <7D5J8MO038016.6319444444@anonymous.poster>a  + J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:g   >mrraveltay wrote:# >> According to the info I can find  >> i( >> The Democrats are meeting July 26-29./ >> The Republicans are meeting Aug 30 - Sept 2.- >-N >If the republicans want to be nasty, they would find WMDs right in the middleO >of the democratic convention, rendering all the pre-prepared speeches useless.  >0O >Then, just before their convention, they would announce that they have Ossama, * >to give their party plenty of new energy. >EM >It will be interesting to see whether the announcement that they have OssamaTL >will cause the Bush paranoya alert system to go to orange or drop to green.N >Would they expect retaliation from Al Qaeda, or would they expect that all is0 >finished and there are no longer any threaths ? > K >Dropping to green would be great for election purposes "we've brought backdN >security to the USA". On the other hand, Bush knows he gets more support whenH >there are threats. So perhaps just before the election, many air france >flights will be cancelled.o >iH >And now, they have begun to get rid of the world human rights offenses.L >Yesterday, they released to an undisclosed location the 3 13 year olds thatL >had been kidnapped and kept at the Gantanamo bay concentration camp/kennel.B >Aren't there laws about keeping juveniles of that age in prison ?   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 21:34:30 -0000 From: Get Real <get@real.now>S Subject: Re: JF goes to MITI7 Message-ID: <Q5AILE7X38016.6489583333@anonymous.poster>n  : JF M e z e i < j f m e z e i @istop.com> trolled for pity:  O >For the abuse passing through the mit servers, best bet is to send an email tos >the  J >chancellor-www@mit.edu since the folks below him do absolutely nothing to5 >prevent their anonymous remailers from being abused.:  O Please be my guest.  But you will also be sending the chancellor copies of your_/ thousands of abusive troll posts on rta, right?   I I guarantee you he will be particularly interested in your rabid anti-USA_
 spews........e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:48:39 +0100O" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>0 Subject: Moderate this group (was: HTML posting)4 Message-ID: <401adfe3$0$22318$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  T May I suggest to the Venerable c.o.v. Community to turn our group to moderated mode?   D.   Get Real wrote:h  - > J F  M e z e i <nobody@nobody.com> trolled:o >  > N >>Binary articles contain information which is in a form not directly readable >>by humans, usually rH >>in "base64" or "UUENCODE" sections. These are usually "attachments" of >>images, executable -K >>files, sounds, or proprietary  format documents such as Microsoft Word or8 >>Excel. Even if theI >>attachment within the article was originally  simple text or a web page- >>(HTML), if it has been  A >>encoded before posting it is still considered to be a "binary".g >  >  > Snip rest of crap. > M > I just love the irony of you, a troll and Super Netkook who's been floodingeM > groups with your trolls and anti-USA vitriol for more years than anyone canW  > count, preaching against HTML. >  > The hypocrisy of some kooks. >    -- s2 VAXUS - Your new helpful friend in the DEC Family!2 EHQ: 19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France/       Phone: +336 7983 6418 Fax: +335 6154 1928 $                 http://www.vaxus.org   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 19:48:09 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)S4 Subject: Re: Moderate this group (was: HTML posting)3 Message-ID: <ILuc8Vs$4mM1@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  Y In article <401adfe3$0$22318$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Didier Morandi <no@spam.com> writes:   G > May I suggest to the Venerable c.o.v. Community to turn our group to   > moderated mode?t >   ( 	This subject comes around occasionally.  S http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9403211349.AA13226%40uu3.psi.com&output=gplainh  ' From: Jerry Leichter <leichter@lrw.com>e Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsr# Subject: Time to moderate INFO-VAX? ! Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 08:39:12 EDT   N Over the many years that INFO-VAX has existed, it's been an unmoderated group.G There was a time, 5-6 years ago, when calls for moderation came up on ahH regular basis.  For some reason, I haven't seen any of those in a while.  > 	Do you see that?  Jerry was referring in 1994 about when 5 or? 	6 years before (1988 , 1989) there were calls to moderate cov.   @ 	Let's face it - it isn't that hard to ignore posters or filter.  G 	It takes me a few seconds to scan the list.  At www.realworldtech.com fG 	I look for authors to read.  comp.arch , I look for authors to read.   2 	I look for subjects.  slashdot, well...  dive in.  / 	It's Usenet/Forum management 101... it's 2004.    				Robi   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:04:23 +0000 (UTC)  From: 27195edmailk@pozyxk.pl  Subject: More photos like this... Message-ID: <bvere6$qb6$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>  A I'm searching mor photos like that: http://vipersex.us/019.jpg  .i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:30:02 -0500R& From: "Jason Lee" <jlee@engr.pitt.edu> Subject: Open VMS for Alpha 4 Message-ID: <bvebbm$nu7$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>  L Hi, I just aquired an AlphaStation station 500/333 and I was wondering where0 I could get a free hobbyist version of Open VMS.+ Can anyone guide me in the right direction.n   Thanks in advancee   Jasono jpound65@hotmail.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:13:31 -0800h& From: Tom Crabtree <tccrab@sunset.net> Subject: Re: Open VMS for Alpha,, Message-ID: <bvehd202a0s@enews1.newsguy.com>   http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/e   Ti   Jason Lee wrote:N > Hi, I just aquired an AlphaStation station 500/333 and I was wondering where2 > I could get a free hobbyist version of Open VMS.- > Can anyone guide me in the right direction.i >  > Thanks in advancen >  > JasonA > jpound65@hotmail.com >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jan 2004 21:11:23 GMT< From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Re: Open VMS for Alphar0 Message-ID: <bveh9r$ahp$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  ] In article <bvebbm$nu7$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, "Jason Lee" <jlee@engr.pitt.edu> writes:eM >Hi, I just aquired an AlphaStation station 500/333 and I was wondering wheren1 >I could get a free hobbyist version of Open VMS.-, >Can anyone guide me in the right direction.   http://www.montagar.com/   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanna   --  E  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452s  ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot deX  D-79011  Freiburg, GermanyD9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.htmlt   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 16:50:20 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)O Subject: OpenVMS vs unix security ... Andrew, the IBM guy awaits your response!o= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0401301650.7b253db6@posting.google.com>t  C Yes, but first redesign and rewrite your unix to cleanly catagorizel and separateF Kernel Mode from Supervisor Mode and from User Mode. Three modes are a minimum D for a correct ring protection system. The use of three or more rings
 happens toC be a fully patented methodology by OpenVMS Engineering. OpenVMS hasr four.HE OpenVMS also has 40 groups of higher mode functionality classified ase	 requiringe special named privileges.    And, then...  6  - allow access to higher mode services only through a DESCRIPTOR-basedD    calling standard which rules out "by design" the primary cause of securityE    holes - buffer-overflows. The secure Calling Standard is a central  design    theme in OpenVMS.  F  - rewrite and install your TCP/IP stack so that it doesn't live in orB    directly access kernel mode services except through the calling	 standard.<@    If the previous condition was met, your tcp/ip stack probablyD    won't work in Supervisor mode or User Mode without these changes.B    This is the reason why most security holes for which OpenVMS isA    affected does not in fact lead to a security vulnerability. InbF    this sense I agree with Andrew. Security vulnerability listings are9    innaccurate for OpenVMS. Because they do not correctlyL
 differentiate E    whether only a user-mode process can be affected or a higher mode, D    and whether a higher privilege can be attained. A correct listing>    must rate the severity of the security hole. In OpenVMS the severityE    is usually lower (or meaningless) in comparison to other operatingt    systems.a  F  - design privilege assignments to be attached to a mode. If a programC    installed in a higher mode breaks out to a user-mode prompt. All2C    privileges assigned during the program run must be automaticallyP lost.SC    This prevents program privilege tailgating. OpenVMS Hackers (yess they>    do exist, an admirably persistent if unsuccessful lot) have recently9    discovered this functionality in OpenVMS, inwhich theys
 intentionally F    installed an application with privileges and with a buffer overflow leadingrE    to a DCL prompt. Their experiment failed. This OpenVMS "knockdown":A    functionality can also be extended to disable the privilege ofn?    receiving a DCL Prompt when breaking out of a program or DCLe
 procedure,E    just by assigning the CAPTIVE and RESTRICT flags to user accounts.l  @  - design your Unix to provide only strictly separated (and from overflow?    controlled) user and system stacks to prevent stack crashinga leading/&    to access to higher mode functions.  F  - lets also not forget a redesign of the internal logon  mechanism to    be carried out by one  @ These are only a few of the unique, patented design decisions in OpenVMS C resulting in a world-beating matrix of Functionality, Reliability, 2D Availability, Security, Stability, and Scalability(RT, APMP, SMP andF Cluster). It's an OS that was "Designed" first by 4 competing teams of experts,E and then the best results of these competing design teams merged intoF ac? final design team. They knew of the older Unix, MVS and Multicse designs, andD naturally they innovated and improved on them for the Enterprise OS  problem space.  A When you are done making these elementary design changes to Unix iA (many of which were intentionally excluded or ignored by the Unixa	 designers F in 1969 - Multics already had early forms many of them) you will find A most of the commercial products on the Unix Market will no longeri functionF correctly on your New-Unix, and will also require a redesign, and then
 a rewrite.  ? But at least you will finally have an OS and TCP/IP stack whiche@ "begins" to technically compare with OpenVMS within the frame of	 security.cF And you'll have a product which pays royalties to OpenVMS Engineering.  F Each OS has it's strengths and weaknesses in design and implementationE which will have a different evaluation depending on the problem spaceo? it will be applied to, and depending on the design goals of the@
 designers.> For the general Enterprise OS problem space, I believe OpenVMS Engineeringt; has most consistently made the best decisions in design ands implementedt? them with an admirably consistent high quality and methodology.O  E OpenVMS enthusiasts can righteously bemoan that the Computer Science  A Profession (Informatics) have failed to recognize and teach theirm studentsC the sophisticated mechanisms and high principals found in OpenVMS,  D preferring instead to favoritize the minimalistic asthetics of Unix,E or the marketing level sophistication in OS selection. This is a realt> loss for enterpise efficiency (money), mission-critical system	 stability F (lives), and the computer science profession (maturity as a science). @ A more balanced and impartial framework of scientific thought is needed. F Computer Science needs some independence from commercial and marketing> interests to even discover the value of many existing designs, technologiesD and ideas. The last major papers over OS design were written over 10/ years ago, but their work is far from complete.B  A Critics of OpenVMS should first study and compare it's internals -E (Professional OS comparisons and choices should not be reduced to an yA application layer beauty contest) with an open mind concering OS j> design paradigms, system operations principals and reliability methodologies.A After recovering from the shock, they will likely no longer be as.	 critical.   E Excuse me. I just noticed I didn't finish writing the last condition.  It should read...b  F  - lets also not forget a redesign of the internal logon  mechanism toF    be carried out by one program/process first created at user request andn=    has complete responsibility for the entire login sequence.a  @ By the way, that was not by any means a complete list of OpenVMS, design advantages.  It was only a beginning.  E Excuse me one last time, I have checked my sources and find I need toeD change one sentence of my earlier Email. The sentence should read...  =    It's an OS that was "Designed" by experts first producing e>    four design iterations, and then the best results of these ?    designs were carried over into a  final design by "The Blue r    Ribbon Committee".   C I had thought to have read that the original 4 designs were by four.@ competing teams, but I can no longer find a source for this. TheE essential message remains unchanged. OpenVMS was carefully "Designed"1( by experienced operating system experts.  E I'm not interested in changing history for any purpose. I do stand by 3 my other statements and opinions made in the email.      Cheers!G   Keith Cayemberg() IBM Business Services - Hannover, Germany5   Semi-Nonstandard Disclaimer:3 Any non-official claims concerning my semi-officiali+ opinions are hereby officially disclaimed.    i.e. I said it, not my employer.0 (and no I didn't steal this one from Yogi Berra)  ? I welcome rebuttal, however a lack of response on my part only h> indicates a lack discretionary time to indulge in discussions ' peripheral to my employment activities.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:40:13 +01005" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>% Subject: Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ?u4 Message-ID: <401adde9$0$22325$626a54ce@news.free.fr>  B Come to the VAXUS Symposium in Paris in June and you'll know more.   D.   Tillman, Brian (AGRE) wrote:   > Robert Boers wrote:i >  > 8 >>No, HP has the emulated VAXes not forgotten. They even >>support VMS on them:@ >>http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.html >  > C > My point is that I believe HP has no intention of adding anythingh( > substantial whatsoever to OpenVMS VAX. > -- >  > Brian Tillman        a       -- t2 VAXUS - Your new helpful friend in the DEC Family!2 EHQ: 19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France/       Phone: +336 7983 6418 Fax: +335 6154 1928w$                 http://www.vaxus.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:54:06 -0700u+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>-% Subject: Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ?J' Message-ID: <401AEE9E.7040907@MMaz.com>e   Didier Morandi wrote::  D > Come to the VAXUS Symposium in Paris in June and you'll know more. > G Non-sense!  HP has made the future of VMS on VAX rather clear, so your t> cat-and-mouse game to imply that there is more to know is not E appropriate and you should not be encouraging the spending of travel   funds for nothing.   Barrye   > D. >  > Tillman, Brian (AGRE) wrote: >a >> Robert Boers wrote: >> >>: >>> No, HP has the emulated VAXes not forgotten. They even >>> support VMS on them:B >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.html >> >> >>D >> My point is that I believe HP has no intention of adding anything) >> substantial whatsoever to OpenVMS VAX.  >> --  >> >> Brian Tillman         >o >  >  >i   -- t  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:37:15 +0100a" From: Didier Morandi <no@spam.com>% Subject: Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ?J4 Message-ID: <401b0766$0$22329$626a54ce@news.free.fr>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: > Didier Morandi wrote:e > E >> Come to the VAXUS Symposium in Paris in June and you'll know more.  >>I > Non-sense!  HP has made the future of VMS on VAX rather clear, so your y@ > cat-and-mouse game to imply that there is more to know is not G > appropriate and you should not be encouraging the spending of travel u > funds for nothing.  E I'm sorry, Barry, but I cannot fully react to your remarks in public.m   I can just say that:  O I do not play "cat and mouse", I'm a professional with a fame, and I also have nQ Electricite de France (EDF) here who control their nuclear reactors with VAX/VMS.0  K The VAX/VMS obsolescence issue *is* a very serious issue. The migration of tO thousand of lines of code from VAX/VMS to Itanium is not a game at all. HP has VN to answer the questions that a LOT of CEOs will ask during that meeting (if I E succeed to alert the Press, which is unfortunately not yet the case).e  P I even considered to send a letter to my Government to explain that most of the P French mission critical IT systems are running on VAX/VMS, and these users have Q no other future than migrating to Itanium, which is an issue that HP France does tO not adress yet. HP France answer to my Customers is today "don't worry, Mister  L Customer, we will take you to VMS i64". They will "take" 160 tools machines Q running DEC DNC-11 on VAX since 20 years to i64? How will they do that? Nonsense.t  O I have another future for these Customers. Actually Robert Boers has, with his aO CHARON-VAX serie of products. As you know, VAX/VMS users are happy users. When sF you talk to them about migration, they smile. Here is another problem.  N When the EDF CEO, or the SNECMA one, or the Airbus one, or the France Telecom M one or or or... will learn that they do have systems in their labs which are rM obsolete since more than ten years, with no future other than "migrating" to uN Itanium, I bet that there will be s** in the fan. I do hope that HP will show P up at the VAXUS Symposium with answers, because there will be lots of questions.  B Something else, please avoid personal judjements on my intentions.   Thanks,    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:46:51 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e% Subject: RE: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ?g9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIMEPACLAA.tom@kednos.com>d     -----Original Message-----+   From: Didier Morandi [mailto:no@spam.com]-(   Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 5:37 PM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComF'   Subject: Re: Renaissance of VAX-VMS ?n         Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote:   > Didier Morandi wrote:t   > G   >> Come to the VAXUS Symposium in Paris in June and you'll know more.K   >>K   > Non-sense!  HP has made the future of VMS on VAX rather clear, so your dB   > cat-and-mouse game to imply that there is more to know is not I   > appropriate and you should not be encouraging the spending of travel o   > funds for nothing.   G   I'm sorry, Barry, but I cannot fully react to your remarks in public.z      I can just say that:   A   I do not play "cat and mouse", I'm a professional with a fame,     and I also have =   Electricite de France (EDF) here who control their nuclear s   reactors with VAX/VMS.   @   The VAX/VMS obsolescence issue *is* a very serious issue. The    migration of cB   thousand of lines of code from VAX/VMS to Itanium is not a game    at all. HP has oB   to answer the questions that a LOT of CEOs will ask during that    meeting (if I G   succeed to alert the Press, which is unfortunately not yet the case).l   A   I even considered to send a letter to my Government to explain h   that most of the iA   French mission critical IT systems are running on VAX/VMS, and -   these users have  D   no other future than migrating to Itanium, which is an issue that    HP France does aC   not adress yet. HP France answer to my Customers is today "don't -   worry, Mister ?   Customer, we will take you to VMS i64". They will "take" 160 s   tools machines oD   running DEC DNC-11 on VAX since 20 years to i64? How will they do    that? Nonsense.    C   I have another future for these Customers. Actually Robert Boers o   has, with his ?   CHARON-VAX serie of products. As you know, VAX/VMS users are -   happy users. When H   you talk to them about migration, they smile. Here is another problem.   A   When the EDF CEO, or the SNECMA one, or the Airbus one, or the a   France Telecom M@   one or or or... will learn that they do have systems in their    labs which are e@   obsolete since more than ten years, with no future other than    "migrating" to nC   Itanium, I bet that there will be s** in the fan. I do hope that o   HP will show  @   up at the VAXUS Symposium with answers, because there will be    lots of questions.   Don't forget EADS,    aD   Something else, please avoid personal judjements on my intentions.   	   Thanks,l      D.      ---e(   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004    ---1& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.566 / Virus Database: 357 - Release Date: 1/22/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:37:48 -0500o* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars2 Message-ID: <B6ednb1lN_H6OYfdRVn-ug@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:aVowOPkHLqnU@eisner.encompasserve.org...8H > In article <bvdod6$nm6$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK; Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:a > > Rob Young wrote: >0E > >> Won't happen?  Actually, surely will.  All that engineering willtG > >> be moved to the CPU with switches for memory and network.  The OEMbE > >> (Dell) will literally just have to combble them together.  Intel D > >> isn't doing/going to do that?  Why not?  Makes all the sense inH > >> the world.  How else to get Itanium moving in the marketplace OTHER6 > >> than cheaper costs up and down all product lines? > >> > >p& > > You seem to have missed the point. > >a >h? > Actually, no.  If Fister is to be believed, he talks in terms : > of breadth - i.e. moving in several directions.  He also > talks in terms of systems.  H That's the problem Rob:  Intel (and in some ways even more HP) have beenG *talking* about how great Itanic was going to be for a decade now.  AndtL every year the talk remains firmly based on predictions at least 3 years outL (at least mostly:  shorter-term predictions such as those for a fast ramp-upL of demand once McKinley was launched become embarrassing a bit too quickly).   ...i  = > > Of course Intel could take a decision to drop the Itanium = > > prices to below cost to make it competitive with Xeon buts> > > why would they want to do this. All they would be doing is9 > > substituting margin positive Xeon revenues for margin  > > negative Itanium revenues. > > = > > As always your arguments lack the financial and technical   > > background to make them fly. > >  >p< > That is why it is important to focus on system costs.  The@ > tired old days of SPEC/MHz battles in comp.arch are behind us.  K No one with any competence indulged in such battles, Rob:  most people have37 *some* clue about the relationship between IPC and MHz.e  A > What matters is how much money you have to spend and the amounto@ > of system you can get with that money.  Cheaper/Faster systemsC > will mean the difference.  That is why the battles out at tpc.orga  > are won at the high-end by HP.  I No, Rob.  The reason they're won by HP is because HP is willing to accepteL lower margins as the price of touting the Itanic systems that it desperatelyL needs to sell.  If IBM felt they needed to do the same to sell POWER systemsC they would as well - but clearly they don't consider Itanic to be a F sufficient threat to do anything but make POWER's strengths clear at a slightly higher price.  %   Sure, IBM is more powerful (and Sun F > *mostly* absent) but you actually get higher performance and cheaper7 > systems with HP Itanium versus Power at the high-end.l  H No, Rob:  HP gives you *either* higher performance at higher system costI *or* lower performance at lower system cost - unless you're happy running0I Windows and SQL Server as your high-end database OS/database combination.s  H And even that will cease to be true later this year, when POWER5 appearsH with noticeably more powerful individual processors and twice as many ofF them (plus SMT in each one:  it will be interesting to see what if any effect that has on TPC-C).   ...v  G > Intel intends to accelerate that (again, if Fister is to be believed)B< > all the nice fat margins to disappear from 64-bit high-end6 > CPUs.  Not today, not tomorrow - but in a few years.  L The question increasingly seems to be whether Itanic will even be around (atH least in any sense that's significant to the industry at large) in a fewI years, Rob:  64-bit x86 certainly seems more attractive across the board.l     Think,  > IBM micro is losing money now?  H Actually, no, I don't:  do you have any recent figures to offer?  What II *do* know is that they're picking up business left and right:  first from0L AMD, then from *all three* leading games box producers, and most recently in3 non-processor-related areas (graphics chips, IIRC).D   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:42:48 -0500n* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars2 Message-ID: <tc6dncorOIEOOIfdRVn-vg@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:B8xh60$moKR8@eisner.encompasserve.org...p   ...   9   How else to get Itanium moving in the marketplace OTHERa3 > than cheaper costs up and down all product lines?e  L So far, *everything* that Intel and HP have done to try to get Itanic movingJ in the marketplace has come to pretty much naught.  At some point, they'llB very likely decide to devote their time, effort, and money to moreJ productive endeavors:  the question now seems to be whether that point hasI already been reached, or still lies down the road a bit (hope does spring J nearly eternal in those who have a major vested interest in the technology" and have little else to cling to).   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 12:44:21 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars3 Message-ID: <G35eRHfsvpQZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  P In article <bve6s4$9o3$1@pcls4.std.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) writes:5 > In article <rU$J9su23GqI@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i. > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:S >> In article <bvcfse$91i$1@pcls4.std.com>, bdc@world.std.com (Brian Chase) writes:o8 >> > In article <b8iK8cTzbQs5@eisner.encompasserve.org>,1 >> > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:l > M >> > IBM already make fast and cheap Power processors.  Apple have been usingtJ >> > them in their G5 systems for nearly half a year now.  From my vantageI >> > point, it looks like IBM have all their bases covered and then some.E >>   >> 	Oh don't be silly. >> n >> 	An 8-way MCM isn't a G5.   > J > Er, no it isn't but neither is the Xeon.  According to Intel it /may/ beK > another three years before Itanium gets to that price point.  IBM, on the = > otherhand, already have a 64-bit Power offering at the Xeon F > price/performance level today, and it's selling very well in Apple's$ > high-end desktops and server line. > . >>       Here's a thought exercise, that 8-wayE >> 	MCM - what do you suppose the cost of manufacturing is?  Further, F >> 	what markup in the MCM percentage wise?  What incentive does IntelG >> 	have to drive Itanium system costs down to Xeon system cost levels?sC >> 	How soon before IBM follows this trend and drives Power system c& >> 	costs down to Xeon/Itanium levels? > E > Only when (or rather if) the market forces IBM's hand to drop those:K > prices.  It'd be very foolish of them to start cutting prices before theyoH > needed to do so.  And in order to succeed, HP Itanium server offeringsL > will not only have to undercut IBM's pricing, but they'll have to undercutF > them enough to make the costs of migrating to HP-UX appealing.  ThenJ > they'll also have to overcome the inertia of IBM customer brand loyalty,F > /and/ the fact that IBM are perceived as a very stable and generally > dependable company.y >     D 	I agree with what you say.  Migration is harder.  New installationsB 	are easier.  For instance, we are looking at a major project thatH 	will cost a lot.  I guarantee you if there was a significant differenceD 	in hardware costs and architectures such that one vendor had a hugeB 	edge on the hardware equation , they would get more weight in theC 	decision.  Similarly, several vendors have their solutions on 2 orcF 	more platforms.  If one of the vendor's platforms is quite a bit lessC 	than the other, THAT platform would be most likely the one chosen.aE 	Having a high price on hardware is a great handicap these days.  The B 	folks that dole out the money tend to want to be very involved in; 	the entire process REGARDLESS of who you are in love with.n  7 	But yes, IBM won't be dropping prices right away.  Buts2 	they will be forced to, not because they want to.   				Robf   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:04:13 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars- Message-ID: <873c9xxqhu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>w  B "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:  F >> From the humor page of the local newspaper, bit named "No kidding":  b$ >>     "Cherry Garcia Bagel, anyone? >>        Their original plans*n  G >>      *Hewlett-Packard was started without knowing what it would maker  rF >>                                   Source: World Features Syndicate" > 7 >> Seems to me HP is still true to their original plan.m  , > Well, being adaptible is one thing, but...  4 Getting it right is not a pertinant detail it seems.  C HP was started to sell the EXISTING audio signal generator they had F designed and built. TCFKAHP knew exactly what it was doing, and did itA exceptionally well. They are one of the few companies that peoplet? could say, "I don't care what the new one is, I want one." withn a very high confidence level.   D Seems unbelivable now, I know. Just pass more shit boys, this shovel is broken...   -- d< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 13:19:52 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)." Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars3 Message-ID: <pfIAhPmRdjbl@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  _ In article <B6ednb1lN_H6OYfdRVn-ug@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message  ' >   Sure, IBM is more powerful (and SunwG >> *mostly* absent) but you actually get higher performance and cheaper 8 >> systems with HP Itanium versus Power at the high-end. > J > No, Rob:  HP gives you *either* higher performance at higher system cost. > *or* lower performance at lower system cost     D 	No.  Higher performance at lower cost.  I think you need to revisitD 	tpc.org.  HP has a 786K number that outperforms IBM and is cheaper.  C HP    HP Integrity Superdome                   824,164  8.28 US $  gC HP    HP Integrity Superdome                   786,646  6.49 US $  fC IBM   IBM eServer pSeries 690 Turbo 7040-681   768,839  8.55 US $  w  B 	Make a pick.  Quite a bit faster and a bit cheaper or quite a bit 	cheaper and a bit faster.	e   > - unless you're happy runningaK > Windows and SQL Server as your high-end database OS/database combination.n >   = 	Oh shoot, we were doing so good.  Being dismissive of SQL isrG 	rather boring isn't it?  I mean there are some large SQL installationsa: 	in the world, and they somehow don't matter?  Here is one	 	example:t  F "First American completed the rollout of FAST and achieved its goal ofJ increasing business efficiency by moving the database onto a Unisys ES7000I Orion 230 server running Microsoft Windows 2000 Datacenter Server and SQLnN Server 2000 Enterprise Edition. The system has 32 Intel Xeon processors and 32O GB of RAM, which gave the company more than enough processing power to completew
 the rollout."u  G The Unisys ES7000 running Windows 2000 Datacenter Server and SQL ServereL Enterprise Edition provides all database services for FAST. Database size isM roughly 250 GB today-and is expected to grow 200 to 300 percent by the end oflO the year. The largest single table in the database is 72 GB, with more than 120uL million rows. An archive database that is roughly 100 GB also resides on the server.t  @ 	I guess we need to find more references?  But the point is, SQL# 	is doing real work and lots of it.   J > And even that will cease to be true later this year, when POWER5 appearsJ > with noticeably more powerful individual processors and twice as many ofH > them (plus SMT in each one:  it will be interesting to see what if any > effect that has on TPC-C).  : 	Probably.  But wouldn't you still be able to get a higher8 	performing system (measuring via tpc.org) and pay less?   >  > ...  > H >> Intel intends to accelerate that (again, if Fister is to be believed)= >> all the nice fat margins to disappear from 64-bit high-endt7 >> CPUs.  Not today, not tomorrow - but in a few years.  > N > The question increasingly seems to be whether Itanic will even be around (atJ > least in any sense that's significant to the industry at large) in a fewK > years, Rob:  64-bit x86 certainly seems more attractive across the board.t >   A 	No.  Power and UltraSparc around.  More systems will be shippinge> 	with Itanium than either one of those in a few years.  So how: 	soon before Itanium is the number #2 shipping 64-bit CPU?  	 >   ThinkM! >> IBM micro is losing money now?r > C > Actually, no, I don't:  do you have any recent figures to offer? e   	How recent?  < 	IBM's chipmaking division lost $111 million during Q2 2003.  < 	Are they losing that every quarter?  I don't know.  I think+ 	they want to hide the losses a bit better.>    What IcK > *do* know is that they're picking up business left and right:  first from,N > AMD, then from *all three* leading games box producers, and most recently in5 > non-processor-related areas (graphics chips, IIRC).i >   D 	But they will still be losing money, finding that information going= 	forward will probably be hard as they are rolling micro intow	 	servers.>   				Robi   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:39:30 GMTn& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars3 Message-ID: <SpySb.13498$xU6.3228@news.cpqcorp.net>s  ) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:rC > Are you accusing Intel of lying about Tukwila's performance, Rob? E > Or are you just incompetent arithmetically?  Intel's statement thatnF > the 7x figure referred to the aggregate performance of all the cores@ > on the chip was quite clear - and the experience with PrescottC > (where a full process shrink didn't improve power consumpation at2D > all) emphasizes the lesson that within a given chip power envelopeF > adding cores may very well drive *down* the per-core performance (as* > may happen with Montecito even earlier).  0D Are you assuming then that 8 cores on the chip being 7X is perfectly@ linear scaling of cores that by themselves run 7/8ths as fast asE before?  Of is the 7x statement more along the lines that when one isoD running all 8 cores at once, one can achive a 7X scaling over what a single core would do?g  i
 rick jones --  G oxymoron n, Hummer H2 with California Save Our Coasts and Oceans platesmF these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:57:47 -0500u( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars, Message-ID: <401AFD8B.2090803@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Young wrote:    9 > 	But yes, IBM won't be dropping prices right away.  Butt4 > 	they will be forced to, not because they want to. > 	 > 				Roba    O And when they do, they'll have the profits from the good margins up until that rP time, which Intel and HP will have to have already spent or done without to try O to force IBM's hand.  Who will then be in a better position to be competitive? 	M And who will then be in a position to say "have we ever let you or any other 0 customer down?"7     Dave   -- .4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  154861   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 20:05:47 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars3 Message-ID: <r+Ci9PGmwv6A@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <401AFD8B.2090803@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:r > Rob Young wrote: >  > : >> 	But yes, IBM won't be dropping prices right away.  But5 >> 	they will be forced to, not because they want to.0 >> r
 >> 				Rob >  > Q > And when they do, they'll have the profits from the good margins up until that .R > time, which Intel and HP will have to have already spent or done without to try Q > to force IBM's hand.  Who will then be in a better position to be competitive? eO > And who will then be in a position to say "have we ever let you or any other i > customer down?"i >   < 	Yeah but when they do drop them, they won't be able to maskB 	that annual $400-500 million dollar loss in IBM microelectronics.? 	Intel and Dell will still be highly profitable and IBM will beO= 	in trouble.  That is why it will be interesting to watch IBMg? 	over the next 2-3 years vis-a-vis Power/Opteron/Itanium , etc.o   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:50:22 -05003* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars2 Message-ID: <JaSdnf1vC_2X34bdRVn-uw@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:pfIAhPmRdjbl@eisner.encompasserve.org...:@ > In article <B6ednb1lN_H6OYfdRVn-ug@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >o< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message >t) > >   Sure, IBM is more powerful (and Sun I > >> *mostly* absent) but you actually get higher performance and cheapero: > >> systems with HP Itanium versus Power at the high-end. > >tL > > No, Rob:  HP gives you *either* higher performance at higher system cost/ > > *or* lower performance at lower system costr >r >sE > No.  Higher performance at lower cost.  I think you need to revisitM
 > tpc.org.  K You really are an idiot, Rob.  Or just don't understand the meaning of yourg
 own words.  ;   HP has a 786K number that outperforms IBM and is cheaper.p >nC > HP    HP Integrity Superdome                   824,164  8.28 US $   F The above system is faster than IBM's.  It is also more expensive, not$ cheaper:  $6,825,055 vs. $6,574,014.  C > HP    HP Integrity Superdome                   786,646  6.49 US $I  L The above system is indeed both faster and cheaper than IBM's.  It also runsJ Windows and SQL Server, and I explicitly pointed that out as the exceptionG (*if* that platform is acceptable to a customer running such a high-endP database system).o  L Your statement to which I responded was "you actually get higher performanceK and cheaper systems with HP Itanium versus Power at the high-end."  And youbK were wrong (save for the Windows/SQL Server combination, as I pointed out).   K Furthermore, you would still have been wrong had you said "you actually getoI higher performance at lower per-tpmC cost with HP Itanium versus Power at G the high-end" (with the same Windows/SQL Server combination excepted) -VL because IBM will sell you a DB2 p690 system scoring 763,898 at an $8.25/tpmCK price - slightly lower than the lowest per-tpmC price you need to pay for ag0 Superdome system in a similar performance range.   ...v  L > > And even that will cease to be true later this year, when POWER5 appearsL > > with noticeably more powerful individual processors and twice as many ofJ > > them (plus SMT in each one:  it will be interesting to see what if any > > effect that has on TPC-C). > ; > Probably.  But wouldn't you still be able to get a higheru9 > performing system (measuring via tpc.org) and pay less?i  E Since you can't even do that today (as explained above for the slowereL members of the class), I'd say that the chances are pretty slim.  Unless IBMD runs into some scaling brick wall that isn't at all evident today, aK 64-processor POWER5 system may well approach or, as its clock rate matures,hL exceed 2 million tpmC - a score that Superdome will have difficulty matchingK even if/when it expands to 128 Madison processors with 9 MB of cache apiecenJ (or next year with 64 dual-core Montecitos, because even if Intel gets itsL 90 nm. process under far better control than it appears to be now they won'tL be able to clock both cores any higher than a Madison core is clocked today, due to heat issues).  L But how prices will compare is anyone's guess:  as I noted before, that willL depend more than anything else on just how hungry both companies are for the" per-tpmC cost lead at the top end.   ...s  J > >> Intel intends to accelerate that (again, if Fister is to be believed)? > >> all the nice fat margins to disappear from 64-bit high-endi9 > >> CPUs.  Not today, not tomorrow - but in a few years.g > >fL > > The question increasingly seems to be whether Itanic will even be around (atgL > > least in any sense that's significant to the industry at large) in a fewF > > years, Rob:  64-bit x86 certainly seems more attractive across the board. > >h >nB > No.  Power and UltraSparc around.  More systems will be shipping? > with Itanium than either one of those in a few years.  So how ; > soon before Itanium is the number #2 shipping 64-bit CPU?c  I If Intel comes out with a 64-bit x86 extension of its own, that and AMD64l@ will occupy the top two slots for the rest of this decade - withL SPARC/SPARC64 and POWERx battling for 3rd (we're talking server CPUs, right?L otherwise, MIPS fits in there somewhere, for at least quite a while yet, andK 64-bit PDA-level chips likely as well).  If Intel does not release a 64-bitvJ x86 extension that gives Itanic a *little* better chance to be more than aI dwindling PA-RISC/Alpha replacement, but I wouldn't count on second placei any time soon if I were you.   >  > >   Thinko# > >> IBM micro is losing money now?g > >hD > > Actually, no, I don't:  do you have any recent figures to offer? > 
 > How recent?e >e= > IBM's chipmaking division lost $111 million during Q2 2003.n  K They were looking for work to fill up foundry capacity at that time.  Sincea- then, they've captured it - and perhaps more.h   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:59:05 -0500e* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>" Subject: Re: Rumours of (CPU) Wars2 Message-ID: <nLqdnalOHJSI2YbdRVn-jQ@metrocast.net>  3 "Rick Jones" <foo@bar.baz.invalid> wrote in messagee- news:SpySb.13498$xU6.3228@news.cpqcorp.net... + > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:nE > > Are you accusing Intel of lying about Tukwila's performance, Rob?eG > > Or are you just incompetent arithmetically?  Intel's statement thatrH > > the 7x figure referred to the aggregate performance of all the coresB > > on the chip was quite clear - and the experience with PrescottE > > (where a full process shrink didn't improve power consumpation at F > > all) emphasizes the lesson that within a given chip power envelopeH > > adding cores may very well drive *down* the per-core performance (as, > > may happen with Montecito even earlier). >oF > Are you assuming then that 8 cores on the chip being 7X is perfectlyB > linear scaling of cores that by themselves run 7/8ths as fast as	 > before?r  A Yes - scaling a fairly readily-partitionable workload (i.e., withhL sufficiently minimal inter-thread coordination that it doesn't significantlyD impact throughput).  That seemed pretty clearly what the performanceL projection said - though I admit that I'm reading some of this into it - andE it also seems reasonably consistent with what one would expect from a L power-consumption standpoint (one explicit portion of the statement was thatD Tukwila would conform to the same power envelope that Madison does).  >   Of is the 7x statement more along the lines that when one isF > running all 8 cores at once, one can achive a 7X scaling over what a > single core would do?d  K I'm not quite sure what the difference between the two statements would be.f? I certainly don't interpret that 7x figure as suggesting that asI single-threaded application would run on Tukwila 7x as fast as it does ontI Madison - not even if a lot of fancy 'execute-ahead' processing for cacheu9 pre-fetch were occurring on the otherwise unused 7 cores.t  I Now, I *could* imagine a situation in which a single core in such a beastdI would significantly out-perform Madison - as long as the other cores wereiL idle and thus neither consuming power (thus perhaps allowing a significantlyI higher clock rate for the one active core than would be the case with all H cores active) nor consuming the shared cache resources on the chip (thus2 making them all available to the one active core).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:24:26 -0600t@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, Subject: Re: Searching for DECps information6 Message-ID: <401B2DFA.35FFB5F8@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:  >  > Guys,- > 6 > DECps (DECprint Supervisor) is alive and well at HP. > A > I think you mean PSDC and PSPA  the Polycenter Performance Data H > Collector and the Polycenter Performance Advisor.  These products were@ > sold to CA.  (If not the most evil thing DEC ever did, a close
 > second!)  D I thought the printing product is DCPS, and DECps (short for DigitalE Equip. Corp. performance solution) was the predecessor to Performance0F Solution Data Collector and Performance Solution Performance Analyzer,: later known - somewhat incorrectly as simply "PolyCenter".   -- t David J. Dachterap dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:27:15 -0600:@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, Subject: Re: Searching for DECps information6 Message-ID: <401B2EA3.6EDE88FC@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Ken Fairfield wrote: >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > Davies wrote:0 > >MI > >>I have looked through these groups looking for current information onsJ > >>DECps  and I have yet to find anything.  It was highly recommended toG > >>us for performance management, we have two VMS systems, one runningi > >>7.2-1 and the other 7.3-2. > >>J > >>So far, my searching has lead me to believe the DECps was purchased byH > >>CA:  http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/Product.asp?ID=1174  but I haven't6 > >>been able to get any more information beyond that. > >t > >TG > > Quite correct. The slimeball-bastard-money-grubbing (censored)s got/K > > their filthy paws on it and destroyed it, like they did countless others
 > > products.f > > > I'm still not very fond of CA, but amazingly enough, they've+ > improved greatly in the last 2-3 years...i  G Really? Is it back down to a realistic (i.e., not laughably inflated to 3 point of being byond ridiculous) pricing structure?/  J > >>Where can I get a copy of or information on DECps?  Is it (or anything! > >>similar) covered in our CSLG?- > > > Since it's now owned by CA, no, it is not on CSLG.  It costsC > money.  If you were running an old version of VMS, and could find A > a corresponding version of DECps as sold by DEC, you might alsoyA > find a license for it in CSLG...but you said V7.3-2 & V7.3-2...m > E > > Recent OpenVMS and ALpha architecture changes have rendered DECpsdL > > inoperable on current versions. I think V7.x broke most of it, but don't > > recall exactly.e > E > Gosh, then what are we running on our ES40's (and other older Alphai > models) at V7.3-1???  D Dunno - I remember the V7.1 upgrade making PCM go terminal, not sure4 about the performance stuff now that you mention it.   -- a David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/V   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:29:03 -0600t@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, Subject: Re: Searching for DECps information6 Message-ID: <401B2F0F.74EC5D93@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Daryl Jones wrote: > r > grayduck_not_goose@yahoo.com (Davies) wrote in message news:<8561a3dd.0401291539.1e9a04df@posting.google.com>...I > > I have looked through these groups looking for current information on,J > > DECps ? and I have yet to find anything.  It was highly recommended toG > > us for performance management, we have two VMS systems, one runnings > > 7.2-1 and the other 7.3-2. > > J > > So far, my searching has lead me to believe the DECps was purchased byH > > CA:  http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/Product.asp?ID=1174  but I haven't6 > > been able to get any more information beyond that. > >tJ > > Where can I get a copy of or information on DECps?  Is it (or anything! > > similar) covered in our CSLG?h > > H > > Any help that you guys/gals could offer would really be appreciated. >  > Dear Sir:  > E > DECps was bought by Computer Associates is now called AdviseIT. The.@ > DECsheduler was also bought by CA is now called ScheduleIT (CA > Workload).  G The prices of both were subsequently jacked up into low Earth orbit, atI+ which time they both were renamed "FuckIT".h   -- t David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:17:44 +0800-, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, Subject: Re: Slow volume under Fibre Channel- Message-ID: <87u12dwbav.fsf@prep.synonet.com>E  0 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes:  D > For more than week one specific disk containing Oracle RDB StorageE > Areas was intermitently slow. EMC didnt discover any problem in the E > EMC DMX and the FC Switch (no error in Fibre, disks, etc...)  I wastC > trying a SHOW DEVICE/FILE and the output paused a few times.  Them> > command DIR/SIZE=ALL VOLUME:[000000...]  paused/freezed too.  B There have been a trickle of reports* of episodic `go slows' on FCD attached SAN kit. It seems to affect most types, and no one seems to have a clue as too the cause.o   * this is on comp.arch.storage   -- d< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.:@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 14:41:25 -0800- From: contracer11@uol.com.br (Shiva MahaDeva)l' Subject: Re: SMG$ examples in Pascal...t= Message-ID: <ddf392ea.0401301441.701f4c6f@posting.google.com>e  M Thanks to all folks, in special to Mr. keith - You gave me a light in the endn of the tunnel.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:31:39 -0600i@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>H Subject: Re: Terry, when Palmers involved you seal the deal on the spot!6 Message-ID: <401B2FAB.246EC39D@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Ken Farmer wrote:i > J > It's humor.  Terry emailed me the picture and I told him he should writeL > something humorous about meeting in a far away place to discuss purchasing > the VMS franchise.  D I enjoy a good joke as much as the next person, but I'd have advisedF against that one, what with so many of us VMSers now flipping burgers,F dumping trash cans, driving school buses, etc. just to make ends meet.   -- t David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:06:20 +0100i# From: edo <nobody@cryptorebels.net>n5 Subject: Re: The raping of rec.travel.air by JF Mezeim? Message-ID: <6eb95794935f63b256edb090b94fcd24@cryptorebels.net>n  & edwardseco@aol.com (Edwardseco) wrote:  M >In article <1179-40198392-50@storefull-3133.bay.webtv.net>, sapphenj@msn.com. >(Harold S.) writes: > @ >>I check in to travel, air and I find nothing about air travel. >nO >The "culture" here has gone way down hill. The better commentators were driven.P >away by the verbal harassment. What remains are the idiot trolls as noted and aO >few knowledgable respondents. Does this mirror the collapse of popular culturei >elsewhere?e >edwardsecoy  L This is nothing new in this group.  Since the days when JF Mezei ran  RobertG Ashcroft off the group a decade ago this newsgroup has been in decline.aO Deranged kooks like Mezei have run off nearly all the well-informed posters who F used to post here and have pretty much ruined rec.travel.air for good.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 04:13:53 GMTe* From: Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net>5 Subject: Re: The raping of rec.travel.air by JF Mezei,6 Message-ID: <0001HW.BC406B84006D115EF00805B0@shawnews>  - On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:06:20 -0800, edo wrote:A (in message <6eb95794935f63b256edb090b94fcd24@cryptorebels.net>):i  H > This is nothing new in this group.  Since the days when JF Mezei ran  H > Robert Ashcroft off the group a decade ago this newsgroup has been in A > decline. Deranged kooks like Mezei have run off nearly all the eJ > well-informed posters who used to post here and have pretty much ruined  > rec.travel.air for good.    G As opposed to a kook like you who tries to wreck four other newsgroups?   M Follow-ups set back to r.t.a. Keep your stupid flame wars to your own group,   please.e   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jan 2004 12:47:51 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!3 Message-ID: <xeopjL5JvL3+@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  s In article <o8cSb.21749$F86.1953280@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Ken Farmer" <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> writes:h- > The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!  >   B    I liked the St. Fister link better, but was disapointed that it#    didn't include a pretty picture.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:21:13 -0600u, From: "Art Beane" <art.beane@mindspring.com>8 Subject: RE: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!> Message-ID: <002001c3e766$3a237ab0$6401a8c0@stconsultants.com>   -----Original Message-----0 From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net] ' Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:46 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comy8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!  
 <skipping...>i  * Er, I *think* that it's meant as satire...   - bill   --------------------------- G I was actually in Cannes in 1994 (Fall DECUS) and can vouch for Terry'ssD presence there. However, his (evil???) twin, Charlie Matco, was alsoI present. Charlie is an expert at statistics and can manipulate (twist???)eH any facts to support the premise he wishes to present. I wouldn't put itI past Charlie to have posted this as part of some scheme to be discovered.c   --Arte   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:35:41 GMT 4 From: brad@.gateway.2wire.net (Bradford J. Hamilton)8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!/ Message-ID: <hmySb.188932$xy6.969607@attbi_s02>r  o In article <79de9693.0401300744.2de8222d@posting.google.com>, kenneth.randell@verizon.net (Ken Randell) writes:ny !"Ken Farmer" <KFarmer@NOSPAM.SpyderByte.com> wrote in message news:<o8cSb.21749$F86.1953280@twister.southeast.rr.com>...h. !> The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! !> rK !> It was back in 1994 that Terry Shannon approached DEC CEO Bob Palmer andsM !> offered to purchase the VMS franchise in an effort to save the best serveraJ !> OS on the planet from the inevitable oblivion associated with the Risky !> Affinity Scheme...p !>  < !> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=04/01/29/9152791 !m9 !Why did it have to wait until 'now' for this to be told?  !sC !Multiple times the idea of purchasing/saving/rescuing VMS has been F !floated on this newsgroup.  If there was really a serious effort hereF !to purchase VMS, why not sound the alarm and get help from all of the !loyal troops. ! F !Personally I'd like to see more details on all of this before passing) !judgement on the veracity of this story.'  F I tok the story to be somewhat of a joke, particularly in light of the following excerpt:  H "Under the terms of the agreement, Mr. Palmer agreed to transfer all VMSM intellectual property as well as the entire VMS Group and the right to banishdL the "Open" prefix from the name of the product to Mr. Shannon for the sum ofK one dollar, thus washing the DEC CEO's hands of the OS That Would Not Die."-   ando  O "For a time it seemed that VMS had found a safe home. But unbeknownst to either-M participant in the negotiations, Bill Gates managed to conceal himself in thes6 mummy case on the right hand side of the photograph. "   It's a joke, son...@  J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own"tK bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' o0                                          with @"   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:18:19 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!$ Message-ID: <bvee6b$d07$1@online.de>  D In article <uIvSb.1669$W37.16152730@news-text.cableinet.net>, "David, Barnes" <david@nospam-bitsolve.com> writes:   F > > Multiple times the idea of purchasing/saving/rescuing VMS has beenI > > floated on this newsgroup.  If there was really a serious effort here2I > > to purchase VMS, why not sound the alarm and get help from all of them > > loyal troops.  > C > I would contribute $100 to the cause.. VMS under a GNU licence...40 > Er.. methinks Lin#* would be dead in a year...  D VMS would be dead in 3 months.  Who would pay the salaries for Hoff,H Guy, Andy, Fred and all the other fine folks?  I DON'T think a bunch of H students in their spare time could match the quality of code coming out I of Spit Brook Road.  The fact that Linux is now comparable to commercial eG unix says more about the low quality of commercial unix than about the r high quality of VMS.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:19:41 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!$ Message-ID: <bvee8t$d07$2@online.de>  G In article <hmySb.188932$xy6.969607@attbi_s02>, brad@.gateway.2wire.netI (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:    H > I tok the story to be somewhat of a joke, particularly in light of the > following excerpt: > J > "Under the terms of the agreement, Mr. Palmer agreed to transfer all VMSO > intellectual property as well as the entire VMS Group and the right to banishoN > the "Open" prefix from the name of the product to Mr. Shannon for the sum ofM > one dollar, thus washing the DEC CEO's hands of the OS That Would Not Die."s >  > andX > Q > "For a time it seemed that VMS had found a safe home. But unbeknownst to eitheryO > participant in the negotiations, Bill Gates managed to conceal himself in thee8 > mummy case on the right hand side of the photograph. " >  > It's a joke, son...s  E Of course.  Not only is Bill in the coffin, but the tongue is in the c cheek.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:13:19 GMT 0 From: "David Barnes" <david@nospam-bitsolve.com>8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!= Message-ID: <jyBSb.2002$z_1.18999391@news-text.cableinet.net>a  L "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de>/ wrote in message news:bvee6b$d07$1@online.de...yF > In article <uIvSb.1669$W37.16152730@news-text.cableinet.net>, "David- > Barnes" <david@nospam-bitsolve.com> writes:w > H > > > Multiple times the idea of purchasing/saving/rescuing VMS has beenK > > > floated on this newsgroup.  If there was really a serious effort herehK > > > to purchase VMS, why not sound the alarm and get help from all of thes > > > loyal troops.h > >oE > > I would contribute $100 to the cause.. VMS under a GNU licence... 2 > > Er.. methinks Lin#* would be dead in a year... >bF > VMS would be dead in 3 months.  Who would pay the salaries for Hoff,I > Guy, Andy, Fred and all the other fine folks?  I DON'T think a bunch of I > students in their spare time could match the quality of code coming outvJ > of Spit Brook Road.  The fact that Linux is now comparable to commercialH > unix says more about the low quality of commercial unix than about the > high quality of VMS. >a   Tongue in cheek I agree!" I was dreaming of a perfect world.  I That said it is worth a discussion on the merits of whether a pepper-corn@G $50 a year licence rising by concurrent users/ processes would meet theWL funding needed, and whether an NPO owned by the licensees would be feasible.J One could see VMS on x86 as a 'pie in the sky' possibility, but the access< to cheap hardware and hence a large install base make sense.   David    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:20:56 -0600u@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!6 Message-ID: <401B2D28.FA860E5F@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Art Beane wrote: >  > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]w) > Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:46 PMe > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como: > Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! >  > <skipping...>  > , > Er, I *think* that it's meant as satire...   T'ain't funny, Magee...k   -- s David J. Dachteray dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:19:48 -0600 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>8 Subject: Re: The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told!6 Message-ID: <401B2CE4.755F9A78@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:- > { > In article <4019C52C.1CAE3D3B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:s > >Ken Farmer wrote: > >>0 > >> The VMS Path Not Taken: Now It Can be Told! > >>M > >> It was back in 1994 that Terry Shannon approached DEC CEO Bob Palmer anduO > >> offered to purchase the VMS franchise in an effort to save the best serverlL > >> OS on the planet from the inevitable oblivion associated with the Risky > >> Affinity Scheme...P > >>> > >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=04/01/29/9152791 > >rB > >Moral of the story: Get it in writing! ...and get it notarized! > B > ... but will that hold up in a court of law(lie)?  Probably not.  C That's why you get it notarized: dated, time-stamped and witnessed.r. Subsequent deals can then be negated in court.   --   David J. Dachtera4 dba DJE Systemsg http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.060 ************************