1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 01 Jul 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 360       Contents: A lint Utility for OpenVMS Re: A lint Utility for OpenVMS RE: A lint Utility for OpenVMS Re: A lint Utility for OpenVMS Re: Adding a unit on a HSZ40 Re: dcl command - pipe Re: DECC /VAXC Compiler  Re: DECC /VAXC Compiler % Does HP has a future (ink cartridges) & FTP client to understand ODS-5 volumes* Re: FTP client to understand ODS-5 volumes* Re: FTP client to understand ODS-5 volumes Re: HP AXP 1u Servers  Re: HP AXP 1u Servers = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article & Memory test diags for Alphastation 255 Re: Mozilla 1.7  Re: NTP and NTPDATE  Re: OpenVMS .... no news?  Phamtom LAD Devices  Problem with huge logical table # Re: Problem with huge logical table # Re: Problem with huge logical table ' Re: slap in the face again... thanks HP ' Re: slap in the face again... thanks HP  smile, be happy  Re: smile, be happy  Re: smile, be happy  Re: smile, be happy  Re: smile, be happy ' Re: Tool used for Mapping a file in VMS - When to use INIT/WINDOWS, SET VOLUME /WINDOWS 1 Re: When to use INIT/WINDOWS, SET VOLUME /WINDOWS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 16:23:29 -0700 From: lsk55@hotmail.com (Scott) # Subject: A lint Utility for OpenVMS = Message-ID: <926edf3b.0406301523.602f3d3d@posting.google.com>   - Does anyone know of a lint utility for DEC C?   O (It would be nice to find one for DEC COBOL, too... but I'm afraid to ask!) :-)   
 Thank you!   --Scott    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:51:15 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> ' Subject: Re: A lint Utility for OpenVMS 1 Message-ID: <E_udnTFhcKeZ_X7dRVn-sw@adelphia.com>    Scott wrote:/ > Does anyone know of a lint utility for DEC C?   7 /WARN=ENABLE=(LEVEL4, QUESTCODE)/ACCEPT=NOVAXC_KEYWORDS   # You can also use LEVEL5 and LEVEL6.   9 Also see the /STANDARD= options for more strict checking.   ! See HELP CC or the documentation.   5 > (It would be nice to find one for DEC COBOL, too...   > but I'm afraid to ask!) :-)  I Don't know about that, check the help and documentation for the compiler.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:48:54 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ' Subject: RE: A lint Utility for OpenVMS 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOELODHAA.tom@kednos.com>   * If you used PL/I you wouldn't need lint:-)     -----Original Message-----4   From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network](   Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:51 PM   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com )   Subject: Re: A lint Utility for OpenVMS          Scott wrote:1   > Does anyone know of a lint utility for DEC C?    9   /WARN=ENABLE=(LEVEL4, QUESTCODE)/ACCEPT=NOVAXC_KEYWORDS    %   You can also use LEVEL5 and LEVEL6.    ;   Also see the /STANDARD= options for more strict checking.    #   See HELP CC or the documentation.    7   > (It would be nice to find one for DEC COBOL, too...      > but I'm afraid to ask!) :-)   K   Don't know about that, check the help and documentation for the compiler.       -John    wb8tyw@qsl.network   Personal Opinion Only       --- (   Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.<   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B   Version: 6.0.710 / Virus Database: 466 - Release Date: 6/23/2004    --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.710 / Virus Database: 466 - Release Date: 6/23/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:07:46 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>' Subject: Re: A lint Utility for OpenVMS + Message-ID: <40E371F2.1139B3B9@comcast.net>    Scott wrote: > / > Does anyone know of a lint utility for DEC C?  > Q > (It would be nice to find one for DEC COBOL, too... but I'm afraid to ask!) :-)  >  > Thank you!  H Standard reply: "What is <insert UN*X-land utility name here>? What does it do?"    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:43:30 GMT / From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu> % Subject: Re: Adding a unit on a HSZ40 + Message-ID: <mTKEc.5797$wY5.3962@attbi_s54>    Bill Hall wrote: >  >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  >  >> Piet Timmers wrote: >>4 >>> Adding a unit on a HSZ40, I know very, very old. >>>  >>> But how do I add a unit: >>> K >>> add unit 10 disk100  gives the message that the number part off the LUN ) >>> must 0-7, but 0-7 are already in use.  >>>  >>> Please help. >> >> >>K >> Well, HSZ40 takes me back a ways, but I think it may be complaining more H >> about the syntax than anything else. I believe the command should be: >> >> HSZ> add unit d10 disk100 >>K >> ..although "10" may not be a valid unit number. It may need to be 100 or < >> 101 or 102 or ... at least, that's how it is on my HSZ80. >>	 >> D.J.D.  >  > < > Valid units are 0-7, 100-107, 200-207, 300-307, 400-407...  M I had production HSZ40 systems in use until just recently.  I don't think any R IDs are not allowed.  I still have both of my dual setups but they are turned off.  I Make sure the SCSI ID you allow for use by the controller is defined.  I  J forget the exact syntax, but maybe provide a screen capture of "Show This" and that will help.   J If you only have say, 1,2,& 3 allowed, I believe you would only be allowedN to define units of 100-399.  That is, all the values for 100's, 200's & 300's.  I I am rusty with them, but the command set has not really changed much for . them to the HSx50 or even into the HSx80 line.   Regards, Rick       --  J Richard L. Dyson                                      rick-dyson@uiowa.eduK   _   _  _____                      http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/ J | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst   --   INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsJ | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems Dept. BT1000 GH   Office: 319/384-7016K   \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052                 FAX: 319/384-7020 E                  (Consulting to the Physics and Astronomy Department)    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:01:46 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: dcl command - pipe + Message-ID: <40E3708A.3468819B@comcast.net>    Charlie Hammond wrote: > , > In article <40E22C43.F73F99F@comcast.net>,6 > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > ..J > >Because these PIPE commands tend to get quite long, I find it advisable > >to simply > >  > >$ PIPE -  > >       command | -  > >       command | - 0 > >       (READ SYS$PIPE P9 ; DEFINE/JOB P9 &P9) > > E > >...and parse out the result of F$TRNLNM() back in the main stream.  > E > A perfectly viable tchnique.  Could be necessary in cases where the # > PIPE got toooooooooooooo... long.  > A > Also, this could provide more flexible parsing, since you could  > do IF-THEN-ELSE-ENDF logic.   G Agreed. I have a utility proc. that invokes SYSMAN in a PIPE and passes > commands to it via WRITE SYS$OUTPUT where I had to use so manyB abbreviations to get the command length within limits, it's almost unreadable.    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:39:52 GMT / From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: DECC /VAXC Compiler@ Message-ID: <cbc3d3a3ad8efd3ecb2250c9d102dec0@news.teranews.com>  $ Another difference is when you link.  X With VAXC, you need to have an options file that points to SYS$LIBRARY:VAXCRTL.EXE/SHAREN With DECC, the C shareable RTL is automatically included, so you can just link( your executable without an options file.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:37:29 -0700  From: Z <z@no.spam>   Subject: Re: DECC /VAXC Compiler0 Message-ID: <10e757f68jt6u54@corp.supernews.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:E > DEC C implements an extended ANSI C and runs on both VAX and Alpha.   < Which can make badly written code break in rather mysterious= ways, like having -1 be greater than 100 in a comparison, for  example.  & And /STANDARD=VAXC doesn't "fix" this.  ; A few other common gotchas with DEC C are leaving the VAX C = .OPT around and linking with VAXCRTL (bad!) and not realizing ; that some functions (socket i/o funcs, IIRC) are not linked * in properly without the /PREFIX qualifier.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:05:06 GMT / From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com> . Subject: Does HP has a future (ink cartridges)@ Message-ID: <86c67ccb86829ba985ba139c0a55875b@news.teranews.com>  Z Saw a BBC programme called Click Online. A weekly programme about various IT developments.  I They mentioned european enviornmental standards (WEE I think) which *may* L result in printer manufacters being forced to remove the proprietary code inF the smart chips on ink cartridges which currently prevent refilling ofN cartridges (without an expensive gadget from a company that reverse engineered the chips).   I And since major printer companies are global, if they have to comply with J european standards, it is therefore likely that their ink cartridges would become refillable worldwide.  J What happens to HP if overnight, they are deprived of their money printing6 business (selling ink cartridges at inflated prices) ?  H Does this mean that at that point, HP will have to return to its seriousL server portofolio and really push that and start to be more like Sun ? WouldG HP then ditch its wintel consumer stuff like IBM did years ago ? (if it I doesn't make money and doesn't drive ink sales, then why continue to lose  money on wintel crap ?)    ------------------------------   Date: 30 JUN 2004 20:55:00 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)/ Subject: FTP client to understand ODS-5 volumes 6 Message-ID: <30JUN04.20550092@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  G Any suggestions for a GUI FTP client (for Windows) that will understand H ODS-5 filenames when used with the FTP server on TCPIP V5.4? There was aB previous post about Mozilla being fixed to handle VMS ftp servers:  3  http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151501   F But this only appears to work for ODS-2 type file names (at least with@ Mozilla V1.7). I might re-open that bug - just looking for other ideas.  G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 7 --                karcher.nomorespxm@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:08:48 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>3 Subject: Re: FTP client to understand ODS-5 volumes + Message-ID: <40E37230.495AE5A0@comcast.net>    Carl Karcher wrote:  > I > Any suggestions for a GUI FTP client (for Windows) that will understand J > ODS-5 filenames when used with the FTP server on TCPIP V5.4? There was aD > previous post about Mozilla being fixed to handle VMS ftp servers: > 5 >  http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151501  > H > But this only appears to work for ODS-2 type file names (at least withB > Mozilla V1.7). I might re-open that bug - just looking for other > ideas.  D Would that not be more a function of the VMS-side server than of the client?    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:34:12 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>3 Subject: Re: FTP client to understand ODS-5 volumes 2 Message-ID: <cc07ol$33m$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>   Carl Karcher wrote: I > Any suggestions for a GUI FTP client (for Windows) that will understand J > ODS-5 filenames when used with the FTP server on TCPIP V5.4? There was aD > previous post about Mozilla being fixed to handle VMS ftp servers: > 5 >  http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151501  > H > But this only appears to work for ODS-2 type file names (at least withB > Mozilla V1.7). I might re-open that bug - just looking for other > ideas. > I > -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 9 > --                karcher.nomorespxm@waisman.wisc.edu       Q You could give WS-FTP a try. A have a rather old pre ods5 lite version, and even  I that is capable of using ods5 names! (I did not do extensive trials, but    lowercase names etc. work fine).  + Get more info here: http://www.ipswitch.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:06:31 +0100 < From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> Subject: Re: HP AXP 1u Servers5 Message-ID: <40e31d4b$0$4586$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>   ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message 7 news:f30679fb.0406300847.119a3bab@posting.google.com...  > Dear Sirs  > 6 > Our beloved HP dont develop 1U AXP servers anymore ? > / > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ds.html  > 	 > Regards  >  > FC   Fabio,  K If you really do want a 1U Alpha DS10L, go to http://www.islandco.com/ they  have 100's of them for sale.  K You will note however hp are making a 1U Itanium box (the rx1600), as Alpha J has been EOL'd its not a big shock that they aren't coming out with new 1U boxes.   Alex   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:17:34 +0000 (UTC) 6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: HP AXP 1u Servers0 Message-ID: <newscache$wi450i$v58$1@news.sil.at>  n In article <f30679fb.0406300847.119a3bab@posting.google.com>, fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes:5 >Our beloved HP dont develop 1U AXP servers anymore ?  > . >http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ds.html   Yup. And this not new.C Remember Alpha is now for OpenVMS only and OpenVMS is not commodity , and also seems not destined for entry level.  H But used DS10L 6/466 (probably from some TELCOs) were sold in quantities for $300 on EBAY last year. B I got a DS10 for about $620 (but I missed the 512MB DIMMs for $1!)   So, what was your point ?    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 12:10:42 -0700, From: JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article= Message-ID: <4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com>   O david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... ) >"Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt"   E Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical"  range.  D How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsF such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for it."  2 Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future?  
 Thank you.   Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:55:06 +0100 < From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article5 Message-ID: <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>   9 "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message 7 news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com... + > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message % news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... + > >"Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt"  > G > Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical"  > range. > F > How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsH > such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for > it." > 4 > Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? >  > Thank you. >  > Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager  5 You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110.   F You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  J Cheap enough for you? I would suspect its less than you paid for the DS10?   Alex   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Jun 2004 20:08:18 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article* Message-ID: <2kgktiF21donU1@uni-berlin.de>  5 In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, ? 	"Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:  > ; > "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message 9 > news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com... , >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message' > news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... , >> >"Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt" >>H >> Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical"	 >> range.  >>G >> How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard comments I >> such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for  >> it."  >>5 >> Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future?  >>
 >> Thank you.  >> >> Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager  > 7 > You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110.  > H > You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  F I hardly think anyone is going to try to trust their business to a $75 evaluation version of VMS.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:13:33 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article% Message-ID: <40E31EED.20904@MMaz.com>    Alex Daniels wrote:   : >"Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message8 >news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com... >    > + >>david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message  >>     >>& >news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... >    > + >>>"Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt" 	 >>>        >>> G >>Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical"  >>range. >>F >>How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsH >>such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for >>it." >>4 >>Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? >> >>Thank you. >> >>Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager >>     >> > 6 >You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. > G >You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  > K >Cheap enough for you? I would suspect its less than you paid for the DS10?  >    > A Are you even suggesting that this configured RX1600 has the same  F performance a capabilities of a DS10 or 20?  I suspect Jim was asking C for an apples to apples performance comparison of dollar spent for  # 'equivalently functional' system...      Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 16:17:26 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article, Message-ID: <QPGdnZ9KsqV4gn7dRVn-hw@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:7 > In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, @ > "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes: >>< >> "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message: >> news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com...- >>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message ( >> news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>...- >>>> "Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt"  >>> < >>> Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 >>> "economical" range.  >>> H >>> How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsF >>> such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price >>> for it." >>> 6 >>> Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? >>>  >>> Thank you. >>>   >>> Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager >>8 >> You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. >>C >> You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1  >> Eval. > H > I hardly think anyone is going to try to trust their business to a $75 > evaluation version of VMS.    I But they will trust their business to a free download of Linux - compiler 	 included.  Viruses and worms optional.  Void where prohibited by law. ' SA's under 18 permitted. No ID required $ Call now. Operators are standing by.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:46:46 +0100 < From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article5 Message-ID: <40e326b9$0$4574$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>   6 "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message news:40E31EED.20904@MMaz.com...  > Alex Daniels wrote:  > < > >"Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message: > >news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com... > >  > > - > >>david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message  > >> > >>( > >news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... > >  > > - > >>>"Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt"  > >>>  > >>> I > >>Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical" 
 > >>range. > >>H > >>How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsJ > >>such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for > >>it." > >>6 > >>Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? > >> > >>Thank you. > >>  > >>Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager > >> > >> > > 8 > >You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. > > I > >You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  > > G > >Cheap enough for you? I would suspect its less than you paid for the  DS10?  > >  > > B > Are you even suggesting that this configured RX1600 has the sameG > performance a capabilities of a DS10 or 20?  I suspect Jim was asking D > for an apples to apples performance comparison of dollar spent for% > 'equivalently functional' system...  >  >  > Barry  >    Barry,   Jim asked...  H > >>How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsJ > >>such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for > >>it."    H and mentioned he gets boxes from 'economical' range like the DS10, I wasL merely showing that the statement he heard about Itanium being expensive was not correct.  J The bottom of the range Alpha box at the time he got it, the DS10 would ofL been more than the bottom of the range Itanium 2 the rx1600. My response was1 highlighting the entry level price, nothing else.   9 I made no claims as to the performance compared to Alpha.    Alex   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:13:06 GMT , From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article+ Message-ID: <C1GEc.5973$Oq2.4635@attbi_s52>   J Our VMS Ambassador, fresh back from VMSland in Nashua, NH said this at our June LUG meeting:   K Nothing is finalized yet, but you'll be really, really, really pleased with L what Itanium VMS will cost.  I said: "you used really 3 times".  His answer:	 "I know".    Dave...   9 "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message 7 news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com... + > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message % news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... + > >"Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt"  > G > Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical"  > range. > F > How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsH > such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for > it." > 4 > Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? >  > Thank you. >  > Jim, OpenVMS Systems Manager   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:19:33 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article' Message-ID: <40E32E65.1000500@MMaz.com>    Alex Daniels wrote:   I >>>>Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical" 
 >>>>range. >>>>H >>>>How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsJ >>>>such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for >>>>it." >>>>6 >>>>Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? >>>>         >>>>8 >>>You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. >>> I >>>You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  >>> M >>>Cheap enough for you? I would suspect its less than you paid for the DS10? 	 >>>        >>> B >>Are you even suggesting that this configured RX1600 has the sameG >>performance a capabilities of a DS10 or 20?  I suspect Jim was asking D >>for an apples to apples performance comparison of dollar spent for% >>'equivalently functional' system...  >>     >>M >... and mentioned he gets boxes from 'economical' range like the DS10, I was M >merely showing that the statement he heard about Itanium being expensive was 
 >not correct.  > K >The bottom of the range Alpha box at the time he got it, the DS10 would of M >been more than the bottom of the range Itanium 2 the rx1600. My response was 2 >highlighting the entry level price, nothing else. > : >I made no claims as to the performance compared to Alpha. >    > G But to compare an item, any item, on price alone without consideration  H to performance, functionality, reliability, dependability, ROI... well, I is that not one of the major complaints about the myopic handing of VMS?    F To imply that an Intanic box can be purchased for an equal price as a B DS10 without consideration of their comparative qualities is like I saying, I can purchase diesel fuel for less than gasoline, but if my car  I only burns gasoline, the comparison is not valid...  Likewise, if my car  G requires 91 octane, but I can purchase 87 for less, much less, the car  C may burn it, but it'll run crappy and perhaps even cause long term  D engine damage.  The two, though similar, are not the same and price A alone, cannot be the sole determining factor in any comparison...      Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:31:50 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article' Message-ID: <40E33146.5060804@MMaz.com>    Dave Gudewicz wrote:  K >Our VMS Ambassador, fresh back from VMSland in Nashua, NH said this at our  >June LUG meeting: > L >Nothing is finalized yet, but you'll be really, really, really pleased withM >what Itanium VMS will cost.  I said: "you used really 3 times".  His answer: 
 >"I know". >  >    > B Hardware, OS, layered software licenses, hardware and/or software F support?  It'll be interesting to see how much all of this costs, but G how 'bout how it'll all really, really, really, perform in comparative  H numbers to todays running and deployed equipment, not a self-comparison G about how this weeks Itanic chip is 10% faster, with a tail-wind, than  
 last years...      Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:47:08 +0100 < From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article5 Message-ID: <40e334e0$0$4576$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>   6 "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote in message! news:40E32E65.1000500@MMaz.com...  > Alex Daniels wrote:  > K > >>>>Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20 "economical"  > >>>>range. > >>>>J > >>>>How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentsL > >>>>such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the price for
 > >>>>it." > >>>>8 > >>>>Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future? > >>>> > >>>>: > >>>You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. > >>> K > >>>You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  > >>> I > >>>Cheap enough for you? I would suspect its less than you paid for the  DS10?  > >>>  > >>> D > >>Are you even suggesting that this configured RX1600 has the sameI > >>performance a capabilities of a DS10 or 20?  I suspect Jim was asking F > >>for an apples to apples performance comparison of dollar spent for' > >>'equivalently functional' system...  > >> > >>K > >... and mentioned he gets boxes from 'economical' range like the DS10, I  was K > >merely showing that the statement he heard about Itanium being expensive  was  > >not correct.  > > J > >The bottom of the range Alpha box at the time he got it, the DS10 would ofK > >been more than the bottom of the range Itanium 2 the rx1600. My response  was 4 > >highlighting the entry level price, nothing else. > > < > >I made no claims as to the performance compared to Alpha. > >  > > H > But to compare an item, any item, on price alone without considerationI > to performance, functionality, reliability, dependability, ROI... well, J > is that not one of the major complaints about the myopic handing of VMS? >   L Agreed, I was however comparing entry prices for two reasons, mostly becauseL Jim asked about pricing, saying he had heard Itanium was very expensive, and? that he goes for entry level, so I quoted an entry level price.   C Also some of the other factors can not be determined at this stage.   D V8.1 is an eval release with debug code in it, so even though I haveK benchmarked a couple of my apps against 'similar' Alphas, I'm sure it won't 5 be consistent when V8.2 is out and that code removed.   J Functionality, well we all know it has less apps than Alpha and there willI be a few bits of the OS not there, like MOP booting of satellites. And as L for reliability and dependability, lets pick this up in a few years and I'll4 have a better idea of the real-world answer to that.  H The safest course is for these factors Alpha, we can all quantify it andK pretty much know what we are buying. But it's still the case on price alone = for entry level Itanium is less and what Jim heard was wrong.    Alex   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jul 2004 00:59:20 GMT , From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article* Message-ID: <2kh5v8F29e0kU1@uni-berlin.de>  , In article <QPGdnZ9KsqV4gn7dRVn-hw@igs.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:8 >> In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>,A >> "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:  >>> = >>> "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote in message ; >>> news:4b6ec350.0406301110.169a0c3f@posting.google.com... . >>>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message) >>> news:<cbor6p$hhs$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... . >>>>> "Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt" >>>>= >>>> Most of our OpenVMS AlphaServers are in the DS10 to DS20  >>>> "economical" range. >>>>I >>>> How expensive is an Itanium processor? I have usually heard commentseG >>>> such as "You know you are on an Itanium because you paid the pricet
 >>>> for it."e >>>>7 >>>> Will there be an economical OpenVMS server future?e >>>> >>>> Thank you.  >>>>! >>>> Jim, OpenVMS Systems ManagerE >>>A9 >>> You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110.e >>> D >>> You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1	 >>> Eval.d >>I >> I hardly think anyone is going to try to trust their business to a $75r >> evaluation version of VMS.  >  > K > But they will trust their business to a free download of Linux - compilers > included.u > Viruses and worms optional.e > Void where prohibited by law.t) > SA's under 18 permitted. No ID requirede& > Call now. Operators are standing by. >   nA Apples and oranges.  The Linux they are likely to download is not B an eval version. It has at least been run by some number of peopleA before they got it and there is a reasonable expectation that it '@ actually works.  Heck, a large number of the people here aren't @ willing to risk running on the latest stable version of VMS much less an eval version.i  @ I use FreeBSD myself but I don't run the bleeding edge versions,> only the versions that are well tested and known to be stable.   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:58:29 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article+ Message-ID: <40E36FC4.AE7BD4A0@comcast.net>    Dave Gudewicz wrote: > L > Our VMS Ambassador, fresh back from VMSland in Nashua, NH said this at our > June LUG meeting:a > M > Nothing is finalized yet, but you'll be really, really, really pleased withsN > what Itanium VMS will cost.  I said: "you used really 3 times".  His answer: > "I know".   
 Well, FFO!  C Now, all they need to do is shrink-wrap it along with the licensing H forms and voila! VMS can be put on the computer store shelves along side Micro$lop and Linux!  $ *SLAP* Wake up, DJ! You're dreaming!   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:26:12 GMTu/ From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com>9F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article@ Message-ID: <5e7389b45bae2831e1bbaca4eb3ee58e@news.teranews.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:sL > "Internally, Intel has basically given up hope on IPF becoming the defactoQ > 64-bit architecture until Tukwilla in 2007. From the specs being bandied about,uN > that chip looks to be another marvel (pun intended) from the Alpha team, but2 > between now and then, there is precious little."    L IA64 may look much better in 3 years compared to IA64 today. Few people will debate this.  J The *REAL* question is whether IA64 will progress as fast as its competingJ chips such as Power, 8086 and even Sparc during that period. And one could< argue that it needs to progress faster in order to catch up.  K 3 years from now, how will IA64 perform compared to whatever Power offers 3  years from now ?  E Remember that it was those very Alpha developpers that gave all those N presentations on how IA64 was a bad archictecture that would be very difficultL to move as quickly as cleaner architectures. So no matter how good the alphaL guys are, if they are tasked to help improve a bad architecture, there is noN way that they can work the same miracles as they would have been able to do on a nice clean architecture.  M IA64 will NEVER be industry standard. That "just wait 3 years" statement from K Intel is yet another "IA64 may not be impressive now, but wait X years, and 7 you'll see" statements. Heard those many times already.O  J 3 years from now, the 8086 will probably become enterprise ready, at whichE point HP will slowly and quietly start to migrate to it to reduce itsa8 dependance on the IA64 which will eventually be retired.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:32:24 GMT,/ From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com>rF Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article@ Message-ID: <a4bcb84f7b35c249e51d2179b94ba942@news.teranews.com>   John Smith wrote:pM > Depending on the agreement with HP about Itanic, it may cost Intel $1-2B in6K > termination fees - chump change for them. For HP it would mean the end oft > them as an enterprise player.t  M Nop. The way I see it, IA64 customers will be naturally attracted to the 8086-J and stop buying IA64. Consider Linux and Windows and that is very evident.  M What is less evident is what happens to proprietary OS such as HP-UX, NSK andM' VMS. Who will pay for porting to 8086 ?t  K So HP may come to intel and say "if you pay us X million to migrate our OSs M off IA64 and onto the 8086, then we'll be off the sinking IA64 faster and you ! can then can it unceremoniously".r   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:50:09 GMT / From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com>eF Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article@ Message-ID: <ab9909d6c39f96583acb3ea53bf77f9a@news.teranews.com>   David Svensson wrote:sE > I don't expect that. It has been obvious for atleast 4-5 years thateG > Itanium would not replace x86. Intel wanted a high-end chip with high.6 > profit, otherwise they would have cancelled in 2001.  L Not quite. Initially, IA64 was to have replaced the 8086 completely for bothA desktop and server (which is one reason they spent so much effort>0 incorporating an 8086 inside the the first IA64.    L When they realised that IA64 was an uncompetitive architecture (cost/time toM develop, heat generation, compiler complexity etc), Intel did admit that IA64nH would not become industry standard (aka: would not replace the 8086). ToN anyone without any financial ties to Intel, that was a clear message that IA64J had little future and gave much more credibility to all the statements pre< June 25 from Digital Alpha engineers on how flawed IA64 was.  L And not so long ago, someone here posted a link to some hour long video of aK presentation by an ex Intel 8086 engineer. He also tended to agree with theg Alpha engineer's views on IA64.o  G Companies who have a financial stake in IA64 (HP, INTEL and a couple ofaM others) cannot publicly tell the truth since it would ruin their own companmyfN if they admitted that they had made a wrong technological decision and bet theK company of a failed architecture. So naturally, you'll continue to see spin * from the likes of HP and Intel about IA64.  M My guess is that 3 years from now, Intel may release an IA64 emulator runninguB on an 8086 (instead of the original plan to emulate 8086 on IA64).   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 23:38:04 -0500+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article3 Message-ID: <jOmdcnMCaYT4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <a4bcb84f7b35c249e51d2179b94ba942@news.teranews.com>, JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > John Smith wrote: N >> Depending on the agreement with HP about Itanic, it may cost Intel $1-2B inL >> termination fees - chump change for them. For HP it would mean the end of  >> them as an enterprise player. > O > Nop. The way I see it, IA64 customers will be naturally attracted to the 8086tL > and stop buying IA64. Consider Linux and Windows and that is very evident. > O > What is less evident is what happens to proprietary OS such as HP-UX, NSK and ) > VMS. Who will pay for porting to 8086 ?  >   F 	What is funny is that last sentence reads like a foregone conclusion.  @ 	And yet we see even more models coming from different quarters.H 	Bull announces a new spin on their Itanium NovaScale server line.  NEC D 	announces new TPC-C marks and Itanium blade servers.  SGI announcesG 	$55 million total in Itanium Altix supercomputer sales to 2 customers. > 	Three days ago, Fujitsu and Microsoft announce a significant B 	expansion of their partnership - Fujitsu an Itanium server maker.  A 	Don't leave those guys out of your mix.  After all, when Itanium < 	"goes away" - they too will have to port to something else.  ? 	Oh - don't forget that Hitachi, Unisys, Dell and IBM will mostiC 	likely have a fit when Itanium "goes away" as they too manufactureD 	Itanium boxes.3  B 	So how soon before we read the above OEMs are abandoning Itanium?1 	Sure... and we will hear about that soon, right?l   				Robt   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jul 2004 00:10:16 -0500 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article3 Message-ID: <Wx53FusOnG45@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <ab9909d6c39f96583acb3ea53bf77f9a@news.teranews.com>, JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  I > Companies who have a financial stake in IA64 (HP, INTEL and a couple of O > others) cannot publicly tell the truth since it would ruin their own companmy P > if they admitted that they had made a wrong technological decision and bet theM > company of a failed architecture. So naturally, you'll continue to see spin , > from the likes of HP and Intel about IA64. > O > My guess is that 3 years from now, Intel may release an IA64 emulator runningoD > on an 8086 (instead of the original plan to emulate 8086 on IA64).  @ 	But that would be very difficult given that Intel is projecting@ 	50-100% greater performance Itanium vs. Xeon.  Xeon64 certainly5 	won't be a candidate to run the much faster Itanium.s  ? 	You find things similar to this written about Intel direction:   8 http://www.midrangeserver.com/mid/mid032404-story04.html  L Intel says that there are other things it will be doing to level the playingO field between Xeon and Itanium. Garrison said that the Itanium core is half thecK size of the Xeon core, which means that Intel will be able to cram twice asiJ many Itanium cores on a single chip for a given chip making process. (ThisN would seem to imply that the Itaniums should be able to run at twice the clockM speed or higher, too, but they in fact run at half the clock speed. There are K clearly some tradeoffs in moving to the EPIC architecture.) Still, in 2004,eG Intel expects that the Itanium will show a 30 to 50 percent performancesG advantage compared to Xeons on a per processor (not per core) basis forvL enterprise (database and applications) and technical workloads. And by 2007,M the performance advantage for Itanium compared to Xeons (again, per chip, notaN per core) will be on the order of 50 to 100 percent. These comparisons includeL the new Xeon-64 extensions, which give these chips 64-bit memory addressing.J That 64-bit memory only helps performance a little bit, and only for largeI databases and memory-hungry applications. Faster memory pipes are just aswE important as wider ones when it comes to servers, as Opterons clearlyl$ demonstrate running in 32-bit mode.   N One of the last barriers to Itanium adoption is server-level pricing. GarrisonH says that right now, Itanium machines offer about 30 percent performanceL advantage compared to Xeon machines for full configurations, but the ItaniumN machines carry a 30 to 60 percent price premium that still makes a transactionK 10 percent more expensive on Itanium than Xeon. Some of that is due to chipiO costs, that premium is also caused by server chipset costs. Over the next three-L years, Intel is going to create a single chipset that supports both Xeon andO Itanium processors. According to Garrison, this will be the exact same chipset,eO not a sort-of common chipset like IBM's "Summit" family of chipsets, which havenL about 85 percent commonality between the Xeon and Itanium versions but which are not identical.    J Intel says flat out that the goal for Itanium is for the family of serversO based on it to use as many of the same components that there is no disparity inuM pricing. By 2007, Intel wants Itanium machines to have pricing parity, and to L have twice the cores on a die, twice the performance, and twice the bang for
 the buck.   O All of this seems to imply that the days of the Xeon are numbered. And if Intel K could have its way, Xeon would no doubt be dead by now. But this transition1 will take many, many years.    ---n  @ 	So with pricing parity and greater performance, Intel will have? 	a lever to ease the customer base in the direction of Itanium.   > 	Hey... if nothing else it will put the remaining RISC CPUs inB 	a brutal position (Power + SPARC and maybe I'm being presumptuous> 	anticipating SPARC being "not canceled" in 3 years) with very= 	high performance and much cheaper cost (versus Power/SPARC)._   				Rob1   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:07:00 +0800e, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article0 Message-ID: <87r7rx6yhn.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  . "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net> writes:  D > I looked through the slides that Intel presented back in April SawC > the Tejas and Jayhawk mentioned.  They are or were follow-ons for D > the Prescott and Xeon (after Nocona) respectively.  They seemed toD > have nothing to do with Itanium.  So while some of the IA-32 plansE > were canned or changed, the IA-64s were not.  Not that I could see.<  E The itanic chipsets got the finger of baldie. So the only people witheD a decent way to build a system are hp and sgi. Just what you need to enthuse 3rd partys even more.o   No anouncment as yet on CPUs.6   -- 1< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.h@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 17:43:05 -0700  From: Z <z@no.spam>t/ Subject: Memory test diags for Alphastation 255-0 Message-ID: <10e6ng15dr2kqb3@corp.supernews.com>  : I've got a AS 255 (OVMS 7.1-2) that's crashing weekly with; Kernel Stack Invalid errors.  There's no crash dump to lookw= at and bumping MIN_KSTAKPAGES from 4 to 8 made no difference.a  ; Firmware is old, latest patches are not installed, but thiss> was running fine a year ago.  And the application it's running hasn't changed since then.   I suspect bad memory.l  0 What's the best way to test the system's memory?   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:37:41 +0000 (UTC)r, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: Mozilla 1.7. Message-ID: <cbv19k$hn1$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  K I just upgraded to Mozilla 1.7 on VMS 7.3-1 TCPIP 5.3, and I'm getting someyJ strange behavior.  Single-clicks are often interpreted as double-clicks byK the application.  For example, when I single-click on a line in the message H list to display that message, it often opens the message in a new window/ (which is the correct double-click behavior).  o  I I'm running in a CDE environment to Xvnc on Linux.  My old Mozilla (1.3 Io! think) did not have this problem.   B I've also had some single-clicks on title bars lead to that windowI maximizing.  But that's the window manager, right?  Could installation oft9 the stuff that comes with Mozilla 1.7 have affected DTWM?h  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:06:56 GMTp% From: "Louie" <lwallace@twcny.rr.com>o Subject: Re: NTP and NTPDATE9 Message-ID: <kdLEc.193431$j24.26090@twister.nyroc.rr.com>-   I will be investigating that.3
 Thanks again.5 Louie.  ? "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in messageu% news:40E22A3C.1F380C82@comcast.net...l > Louie wrote: > >a  > > Thanks to all for your help. > >0D > > I didn't know you could telnet to port 13 and get the time back.< > > I surprised to see this work on the TS-2100 time server.I > > This should be enough to integrate a check into the system to correct1 > > any large time drift.n > 6 > I would still recommend getting your hardware fixed. >M, > Heal the wound rather than using bandages. >l > D.J.D.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:22:34 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>" Subject: Re: OpenVMS .... no news?2 Message-ID: <k4udnS2yutHPDH7dRVn-hw@metrocast.net>  . "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> wrote in message2 news:fqk0e0htklh6g2mepdaoikc268e87r68lp@4ax.com...I > On 28 Jun 2004 09:34:36 -0700, fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)l wrote: >8- > >For a long time I am not reading good newsc3 > >about OpenVMS' new features in this news group ?-& > >What is happening ? Is it freezed ? >2 > You have got to be kidding!5  L Why?  You don't consider the abysmal lack of enthusiasm HP has for promotingF VMS to be cause for such concerns?  Perhaps you need to better connect yourself to the real world.f  4  Apart from the port to Itanium which is taking up a$ > lot of the time of VMS Engineering  H Gee - I can so clearly remember the time when it was stated that the VMSI head count would be doubled precisely to avoid any negative impact of therH port on on-going development (such as it was - back in 2001 there was atK least a continuing pretense that reasonably robust development activity wast still on the agenda).i  H And I also remember how cynical those of us who questioned how realisticJ such projections might be were considered to be.  Very Cassandra-like, for7 those of you with the benefit of a classical education.n  -  there is loads more good stuff for Itanium & F > Alpha (some VAX too). Check out the Rolling Roadmaps presentation on@ > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm  K My, what an interesting document this continues to be.  Double-speak at itsrJ best.  For example, it's so encouraging to see that the VMS port to ItanicK is 'exceeding expectations', despite a projected production-quality releasesD date that has now slipped to Q4 (which itself is still not the 'full8 functionality' release:  that's 8.3, some time in 2005).    in particularK > read the notes for more detailed information about what new features turn0 up > when.0  L Hmmm.  Sometimes .ppt files have readable notes.  I tend to prefer less MSsy5 formats like .pdf myself, so I must have missed them.   H Let's see, though:  There's no mention whatsoever of the new file systemI that people have been talking about it seems like forever now (I actuallysJ investigated working on it 4.5 years ago, but found their commitment to itH to be rather unconvincing at that time).  Real support for Unix fork andD select seems to have been relegated to the 'investigations' bin - noK commitment, no projected date (and the dates listed run out to 2007 now, sox% the lack of one seems a bit ominous).   E The roadmap lists quiet a few features that have already been largely J completed and a great deal of third-party software which may or may not beK getting any VMS-specific enhancements (perhaps to flesh out a document that>L might otherwise appear rather meager), but when it comes to work still underI way in the VMS development group itself it seems to be confined mostly tooF support for new hardware (Itanic or otherwise) and incorporation of HPG facilities like OpenView into the VMS world:  hardly the stuff of which # dreams are made, at least not mine.o  I But, as I noted, I have not read the notes that you mentioned.  So pleases8 feel free to inform us of the wonderful details therein.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:28:52 GMTM/ From: "Richard L. Dyson" <rick-dyson@uiowa.edu>  Subject: Phamtom LAD Devices* Message-ID: <EFKEc.6110$XM6.813@attbi_s53>  I I have the LAD system installed on my AlphaServers and I noticed recentlyeI that every day I get a few new DADxx devices created.  Now, I am the onlyuI one on the cluster that even knows what DAD/LAD is or how to use it, etc.gH I am not doing anything and the only InfoServer I have, I even unplugged, in case it was generating something strange.  J This is on an OpenVMS v7.3 cluster.  All patches applied (#1, & #2, & lotsJ of #3).  I recently updated DECnet (Phase V), Shadowing, Fibre_SCSI & RPC.H I don't recall noticing whether the DADxx devices were around before theK patches, but I don't think so.  Both main servers in the cluster are seeing'/ the creation of the DADxx devices, a few a day.   I Does anyone have any suggestions on what might be binding them?  Or how I E might catch the process that is doing it?  Set some auditing alarm ons something maybe?   Thanks for any help!   Rick -- oJ Richard L. Dyson                                      rick-dyson@uiowa.eduK   _   _  _____                      http://www-pi.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/rJ | | | ||_   _|  Senior Systems Analyst   --   INFORMM-Cerner Systems Group< | | | |  | |    The University of Iowa Hospitals and ClinicsJ | \_/ | _| |_   Information Systems Dept. BT1000 GH   Office: 319/384-7016K   \___/ |_____|  Iowa City, IA 52242-1052                 FAX: 319/384-7020eE                  (Consulting to the Physics and Astronomy Department)m   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 14:32:45 -0700 From: gregc@csd.net (Greg C)( Subject: Problem with huge logical table< Message-ID: <f93a6b99.0406301332.b73f6f2@posting.google.com>   Hello,  D I'm trying to use Perl on OpenVMS, and for the most part it works --C until I touch the %ENV table. The system I'm on has a lot of legacybB baggage and some of that is in a very large logical name table. ItB contains about 24,000 entries, and causes Perl to stall for two or3 three minutes as it loads up a megabyte of symbols.t  ? Ironically, the huge name table doesn't contain any symbols I'msF interested in, so I was wondering if there was some way of hiding thatR particular table from my Perl processes. Alternative ideas are welcome, of course.  F I'm not an OpenVMS afficionado, so please speak slowly when you answer :-)l   Thanks,a   Greg C   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:45:31 -0700u+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> , Subject: Re: Problem with huge logical table' Message-ID: <40E3347B.6040804@MMaz.com>>  
 Greg C wrote:b   >Hello,i > E >I'm trying to use Perl on OpenVMS, and for the most part it works --sD >until I touch the %ENV table. The system I'm on has a lot of legacyC >baggage and some of that is in a very large logical name table. ItsC >contains about 24,000 entries, and causes Perl to stall for two ord4 >three minutes as it loads up a megabyte of symbols. > @ >Ironically, the huge name table doesn't contain any symbols I'mG >interested in, so I was wondering if there was some way of hiding thatkS >particular table from my Perl processes. Alternative ideas are welcome, of course.l >lG >I'm not an OpenVMS afficionado, so please speak slowly when you answer  >:-) >  >  s > G I don't know if Perl will require that it be an executive logical, but kE you could attempt to redefine your LNM$DCL_LOGICAL, which looks like:   1 $ sh log/tab=lnm$system_directory LNM$DCL_LOGICALi<    "LNM$DCL_LOGICAL" = "LNM$FILE_DEV" (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)8 1  "LNM$FILE_DEV" = "LNM$PROCESS" (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)         = "LNM$JOB"h         = "LNM$GROUP"t         = "LNM$SYSTEM"; 2  "LNM$SYSTEM" = "LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE" (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)M         = "LNM$SYSCLUSTER"C 3  "LNM$SYSCLUSTER" = "LNM$SYSCLUSTER_TABLE" (LNM$SYSTEM_DIRECTORY)p  F to just include the specific logical name tables required within your I Perl apps...  My first question would be, even with a legacy system, why aI so many logicals, and second, why haven't they been better partitioned?  tG Does every single user on the system really need access to all of them?    Barryk   -- M  > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        k   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:52:40 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis), Subject: Re: Problem with huge logical table. Message-ID: <cbvg7o$o1k$2@newslocal.mitre.org>  { gregc@csd.net (Greg C) writes in article <f93a6b99.0406301332.b73f6f2@posting.google.com> dated 30 Jun 2004 14:32:45 -0700: E >I'm trying to use Perl on OpenVMS, and for the most part it works --eD >until I touch the %ENV table. The system I'm on has a lot of legacyC >baggage and some of that is in a very large logical name table. IteC >contains about 24,000 entries, and causes Perl to stall for two or 4 >three minutes as it loads up a megabyte of symbols. >1@ >Ironically, the huge name table doesn't contain any symbols I'mG >interested in, so I was wondering if there was some way of hiding thatgI >particular table from my Perl processes. Alternative ideas are welcome, u >of course.h  L I'm guessing that the junk-filled logical name table is at the system level.I And also that the reason Perl (or C) looks at it is because it is part ofu' LNM$FILE_DEV.  Here's how to bypass it:a  3 $ show log /table=lnm$system_directory lnm$file_deve  J You'll get a list of translations.  One of them will be the bloated table.  ; To replace that definition, just for your process, do this:   @ $ def/table=lnm$process_directory lnm$file_dev table1,table2,...   Then see how fast perl is.  I If that works, you might want to delete the bloated table from the systemeH directory's lnm$file_dev and let the legacy apps add it in their process directories.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:48:56 GMTf/ From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com>r0 Subject: Re: slap in the face again... thanks HP@ Message-ID: <dfff2914e2163e0a0bfac01d6a917575@news.teranews.com>   Paul Sture wrote: J > But to bash you in not too rough a way, you should really count the costE > of your wasted time and use that to justify getting a decent backupr > solution.e  M Friends of mine are cycling around the world. Twice, their laptop failed. TheuJ first time, it was due to orange juice spilled on keyboard. But the second* time, it was some windows file corruption.  M So they went to an authorized Toshiba repair centre. All they would do was tocL reload the "original" OS that had come at the time the laptop had been built5 (Windows 98), and then copy their user files back on.p  N One of the big problems (although I think that with XP, this has been solved),? is that there is no real way in windows to do the equivalent ofvM backup/image/ignore=interlock, so any back you make ends up missing any fileseN that were considered locked/opened at the time. And because the screen scroollC quickly, you don't have a record of which files were NOT backed up.s  9 (Nots that DG's AOS VS also had similar problems with itsiM backup/image/ignore=interlock still missing a few files (and not even issuing  any warnings).  ; Does Windows now have the equivalent of standalone backup ?8   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:15:42 GMT8/ From: JF Mezei <"jfmezei"@spamnot@teksavvy.com>-0 Subject: Re: slap in the face again... thanks HP@ Message-ID: <519b60ffe8ea29e4dd0bd5aa359e3c43@news.teranews.com>  ! VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: H > micro$hit organization).  The kids and wife used it for the most part.I > First the monitor died in about 6 months (I leave my old trusty DEC VRC J > and VRT on all the time.  This Gateway monitor was not on all that oftenI > and it died off quickly).  Then the mouse decided to spring its left ord7 > rigth click button. The keyboard followed soon after.   K The important part of this was "the kids and wife used it".  Sorry, but the M fact that it didn't last long make have far more to do with the kids using ituA than it coming from Dell, Gateway or whatever :-) :-) ;-) :-) :-)u  J You know, the human brain naturally/instinctively does get the fingers  toN click much harder on the mouse thinking the phaser gun will fire faster/harderJ to kill the dangerous alien that is about to eat you.... It is only as youN mature that you succesfully train your brain that it doesn'T make a differenceJ if you click the mouse softly or hard when the time comes to kill off some dangerous enemy on some CRT :-)-   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 16:15:38 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t Subject: smile, be happy3 Message-ID: <86NdgO6ZM6$n@eisner.encompasserve.org>$  t In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes: > 7 > You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110.l > H > You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  C    From what I had read before, it wasn't clear that the rx1600 was      going to be supported by 8.1.  G    HP is having a special, selling an Itanium workstation with 8.1 for eB    $990 if you buy a bigger system with it (save over $8000 on the8    workstation).  Details on the openvms web site, IIRC.  4    That's a near-WallMart-price for a real computer.  E    Now if I can just find someone buying a bigger system that I couldt    piggyback on...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:24:35 +0100 < From: "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> Subject: Re: smile, be happy5 Message-ID: <40e32f97$0$4587$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:86NdgO6ZM6$n@eisner.encompasserve.org...oF > In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, "Alex Daniels"/ <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:  > > 9 > > You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110.b > > J > > You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval. >gE >    From what I had read before, it wasn't clear that the rx1600 wase" >    going to be supported by 8.1. >dH >    HP is having a special, selling an Itanium workstation with 8.1 forD >    $990 if you buy a bigger system with it (save over $8000 on the: >    workstation).  Details on the openvms web site, IIRC. > 6 >    That's a near-WallMart-price for a real computer. > G >    Now if I can just find someone buying a bigger system that I coulds >    piggyback on... >b  I The rx1600 isn't 'supported' with V8.1, but being an Eval release its notv< like you getting proper support with whatever you run it on.  L The rx2600 is 'supported' however, and I may be wrong so don't quote me, butK from what I can make out it appears the rx1600 is the same as a rx2600 onlye. with less PCI slots and a smaller form factor.   Alex   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:15:38 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>h Subject: Re: smile, be happy, Message-ID: <PMGdnS9iUsULpn7dRVn-hQ@igs.net>   Bob Koehler wrote:F > In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, "Alex Daniels"1 > <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:e >>8 >> You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. >>C >> You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1n >> Eval. >tE >    From what I had read before, it wasn't clear that the rx1600 wasJ" >    going to be supported by 8.1. >-H >    HP is having a special, selling an Itanium workstation with 8.1 forD >    $990 if you buy a bigger system with it (save over $8000 on the: >    workstation).  Details on the openvms web site, IIRC. >-6 >    That's a near-WallMart-price for a real computer. > G >    Now if I can just find someone buying a bigger system that I couldr >    piggyback on...    I Costco is selling the same computer in the 'Family Pack' - 4 machines forcL $3200 + a manufacturer's mail-in rebate coupon for another $200 off. It's in. the aisle right beside the Logitech Mice   ;-)   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 18:39:00 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)> Subject: Re: smile, be happy3 Message-ID: <LY$LF7ewfxTm@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  q In article <86NdgO6ZM6$n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:lv > In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes: >>  8 >> You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. >> kI >> You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.r > E >    From what I had read before, it wasn't clear that the rx1600 was " >    going to be supported by 8.1.  3 It is not, but that does not mean it does not work.o  @ And since 8.1 is just a field test release, "supported" does not mean a whole lot.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:45:58 GMTn5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)p Subject: Re: smile, be happyL Message-ID: <rdeininger-3006042051170001@user-uinj5b9.dialup.mindspring.com>  3 In article <86NdgO6ZM6$n@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o, koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org wrote:  E >In article <40e31a9d$0$4580$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, "Alex Daniels"e/ <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:H >> a8 >> You can get an rx1600 1Ghz, 1/2 Gig memory for $2110. >> nI >> You will need VMS as well though, that is currently $75 for V8.1 Eval.  >eD >   From what I had read before, it wasn't clear that the rx1600 was! >   going to be supported by 8.1.t  H V8.1 doesn't have traditional "support".  There's a list of suggested HWA configurations.  rx2600 is on the list; rx1600 isn't, because VMSe@ engineering didn't see rx1600 systems until after V8.1 was done.  @ Both platforms "work" with V8.1, as does the 4-processor rx4640.  H V8.2 is expected to support (in the traditional, official sense) rx1600,I rx2600 (several flavors), rx4640 (several flavors), and some other stuff.v  H rx1600 and rx2600 are very similar.  The system boards aren't identical,F but rx1600 started from the rx2600 design.  There are also a number ofE firmware differences, but they are mostly invisible to VMS.  The main E practical differences are packaging, power consumption, number of PCId slots, and price.i  I rx1600 is less expensive than any alpha system of recent years, maybe any"? alpha system ever.  With 1 CPU it will outperform DS10 for someoH workloads.  With 2 CPUs it's arguably a faster system overall than DS10,@ but DS10 will win for some workloads.  Of course, DS10 is a full> generation out of date.  DS15 would be the fair comparison forH performance, and I expect it will beat rx1600 in most cases.    But DS15J costs a lot more than rx1600.  (This paragraph is vague, and intentionally so.)  G DS15 is the last of its line.  rx1600 is about half a generation out ofaJ date already, and it will have faster relatives eventually.  It looks likeH the sweet spot for low-end VMS systems will switch from Alpha to Itanium within a year.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 11:36:07 -0700, From: JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)0 Subject: Re: Tool used for Mapping a file in VMS= Message-ID: <4b6ec350.0406301036.4016a790@posting.google.com>p  j shikoks@hotmail.com (Mon Garret) wrote in message news:<a2a1e057.0406220058.951415e@posting.google.com>...E > Does anyone know a tool that can be used in mapping a file in VMS? r9 > This tool is similar to what Fileaid does in Mainframe.   D I have historically used Datatrieve (sometimes the product is listed asB DEC Datatrieve or VAX Datatrieve) for that purpose for over twenty years.- You create a domain for each file definition.a@ You create a record layout (or multiple record layouts) for each domain.l7 The record layout is similar to COBOL data definitions.s  F You can store (insert), modify (update), erase (delete), cross (join), etc.= You can list each record (row) vertically column by column or D print records (rows) horizontally ... much more flexible than Oracle or Sybase SQL.  F There are third party "SQL for OpenVMS RMS" products if you prefer SQL, instead of learning Datatrieve's equivalent.  = Jim, OpenVMS Systems and Developer, Data911, Alameda, CA, USAn   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jun 2004 14:57:14 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)6 Subject: When to use INIT/WINDOWS, SET VOLUME /WINDOWS= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0406301357.14bbec39@posting.google.com>,  D When is it appropriate to use the /WINDOWS qualifier for INIT or SETD VOLUME? If this affects performance, why isn't it in the Performance Manaual?   Thanks.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:06:25 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: When to use INIT/WINDOWS, SET VOLUME /WINDOWS+ Message-ID: <40E371A1.C3B5B57B@comcast.net>    "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > F > When is it appropriate to use the /WINDOWS qualifier for INIT or SETF > VOLUME? If this affects performance, why isn't it in the Performance
 > Manaual?  	 It isn't?e  F Seriously - I'm sure there are references to other doc.'s in the GuideA to Performance Mgt. The books try to be "one size fits all" not a   "cookbook" for high-performance.  H There's a few tuning tricks that aren't in *ANY* of the doc.'s! Ya gotta. go digging for DECUS presentations on the web.   D.J.D.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.360 ************************