1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 11 Jul 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 380       Contents:+ Re: g77 linker "multiple definition" errors = Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article / Re: OpenVMS license transfer  policies and fees  Re: OpenVMS Positions - Europe< Re: OpenVMS probably the best designed o/s in  the market...) Re: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall ) RE: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall ) Re: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall ) Re: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:45:54 GMT 0 From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>4 Subject: Re: g77 linker "multiple definition" errors- Message-ID: <SJ2Ic.55324$%_6.54922@attbi_s01>    (cross posting to comp.os.vms)   Dr Ivan D. Reid wrote:  N > On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:02:34 GMT, glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>. >  wrote in <eokHc.48159$XM6.30833@attbi_s53>:   >>Ken Fairfield wrote:   >>(snip)  D >>>    Actually, the VMS linker takes (present tense :-) the largestC >>>definition of the common that it finds when allocating space for * >>>the PSECT, i.e., memory for the common.  0 >>You mean the VAX, Alpha, and Itanium versions?  < > 	Is this available to customers (well, hobbyists..) yet?  A  > My Alpha is NT-only configuration so I can't easily change it.     5 Is VMS/Itanic, oops, Itanium available for hobbyists?   8 It might be that older hardware is available at hobbyist/ pricing, maybe even more affordable than Alpha.    -- glen    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:18:14 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>F Subject: Re: Intel Itanium's very survival in doubt - inquirer article2 Message-ID: <HtudnbXCYoY2r23dRVn-hw@metrocast.net>  - "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message 0 news:1040709174244.16558A-100000@Ives.egh.com..., > On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Andrew Harrison wrote: >  > > John Santos wrote: > > 0 > > > On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Andrew Harrison wrote: > >  > > > @ > > > All emulation performance data ever provided by anyone forB > > > anything in the history of the universe has this limitation. > > >  > > ; > > Sorry but that is entirely wrong. If for example HP had > > > run the HP-PA SPECint executables on Itanium then we would; > > be able to see how a workload which is 99.9% user runs.  > E > You take my quote out of context and then say it is entirely wrong.   I I'm afraid that the phrasing of your sentence makes it quite clear to any K even semi-literate individual that context is not a consideration:  instead L of providing a knee-jerk response, read it again with as neutral a viewpoint as you can manage.  L Andrew's objection is precisely the same one that I raised myself:  when oneI talks about emulation speed, mixing arbitrary and unquantified amounts of J native code execution into the timings makes the information useless (saveJ possibly for the specific application tested).  The original discussion inI this area was about emulation speed, not overall application performance, K and Rick's introduction of tests that included significant kernel execution E was a red herring (though I doubt that he intended it to be):  he was L responding to my rough approximations (as provided by HP) with evidence thatI at first glance appeared to place them in some question but which in fact E did not, due to the dilution of his measurements by natively-executed E components (a dilution which, as Andrew points out above, is entirely I unnecessary:  standard code exists to measure processor performance which - executes almost entirely without kernel aid).    ...   ? > > >>Regretably all the emulation performance data I have seen A > > >>provided by HP falls into the bind category, workloads that A > > >>are predominantly kernel based where the kernel is a native  > > >>IA64 port. > > >  > > > I > > > Here is where you make an unsupported claim.  Is BIND kernel-bound? B > > > You have posted no data to support this, you just assume it. > > >  > > D > > Yes I have, just not in the particular posting you responded to. > > < > > One of the Bind examples (running on HP-UX) includes top8 > > output with shows a roughly 60/40 kernel/user split. > ? > The 60/40 split is useful information.  However, it wasn't in ? > the post I responded to, or in any post I've seen.  Since you D > were assuming it, you should have cited it in the post I did see.>F > This is Usenet.  Posts get lost.  Posts get propagated out-of-order.A > People don't read it every day.  Don't assume everyone has seen @ > or has even had the opportunity to see every post.  If you areB > basing a claim on something said in another thread or subthread,: > or even on something long-since snipped, then you should > recapitulate.  > ? > Please learn some basics of newsgroup etiquette.  You've been B > posting long enough that no one should cut you any newbie slack.  H Try pulling your head out long enough to be at least a little objective:F basic familiarity with the subject under discussion in a thread is theF responsibility of the responder at least as much as of the poster, andK people who snip inadequately are just as frequently criticized as those who J snip with gay abandon (not that Andrew did in this instance).  Most of theJ recent discussion in the thread has centered around exactly the topic thatL you saw when you encountered it:  if you failed to familiarize yourself withG at least that portion of the thread, you have mostly yourself to blame.   L But since you made a factually incorrect assertion that Andrew had posted noI data in support of his statements, that's *entirely* your responsibility: I if you don't know what you're talking about, it's both wise and polite to A phrase your statements interrogatively rather than as assertions.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:54:45 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 8 Subject: Re: OpenVMS license transfer  policies and fees, Message-ID: <1e-dnb_bKMRFEm3dRVn-ug@igs.net>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > Rich Jordan wrote: >>- >> Every step forward comes with a step back.  >>	 >> <rant>  >>E >> Its not enough that DEC's archaic and restrictive license transfer B >> policies for OpenVMS have been retained.  Its not enough that a< >> recent Alpha with OpenVMS base license and the enterpriseG >> integration package could ONLY be transferred with the base license, E >> that NONE of the networking or other licenses could be relicensed, D >> and that the DECnet for Alpha was the one special nontransferableC >> DECnet license so you can't even keep DECnet (unlike all the VAX A >> versions).  Its not enough that the cost of repurchasing those E >> licenses all over again eviscerates potential sale after potential 
 >> sale... >>G >> Now they've raised the relicense fee from $300 to $400... for moving B >> that one single base license.  No changes in what is allowed toG >> transfer, no relaxation of the heavy restrictions... just more blood = >> money to keep an OpenVMS system running in a new location.  >>
 >> </rant> >> >> Thanks tons, HP.  >> >> Rich  >  > <co-rant> ; > O.K. Who's going to be the first blasting his negativity?  > </co-rant> >  > D.J.D.    C Complaints (a.k.a. "negativity") can also be viewed as constructive L criticism, especially when they are directed at archaic policies, stupidity,- lack of advertising, and gross mismanagement.   I I was out sailing today with a group of people who are senior managers of I real estate and sea transport companies. Talk got around to Microsoft and L the problems their companies face relying on Microsoft infrastructure. TheseK guys remembered Digital Equipment Corporation and asked 'what ever happened K to them'. "Simple", I said. "They were poor marketers and didn't understand C the concept of creating demand for their products through effective H advertising and aggressive pricing." These guys nodded in agreement. ButI they did take in the lessons of OpenVMS that I talked to them about and a F couple were intrigued enough that they may consider using VMS if their- backend ISV applications are available on it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:02:38 GMT * From: tutor <tutor_removespam_@cfl.rr.com>' Subject: Re: OpenVMS Positions - Europe 8 Message-ID: <tnh1f0dj3sk59o49v0p5pudrqrlijv76rb@4ax.com>  3 Wow - I think your numbers need to be challenged!!!   & Zillions of well qualified vms people?   Let's do some math.   C In the 70's and 80's - maybe 10% of all installations were NON-IBM. E And of those - Digital, Prime, Honeywell, and whatever, maybe only 5% $ tops (pun intended) were Digital....  B Now, without using real numbers (as it is not appropriate for thisB discussion), and taking into account this is 20 to 30 years later,   Of those "zillions" / how many vaxers are either DEAD or RETIRED ????   + And of those still remaining on their feet, E how many were lucky enough to move on to greener pastures (employment F wise - after all, no one would ever say moving away from the vax was a step upwards!)8 ========================================================D And please remember, that a VAX shop was rarely staffed by more thanF 10 people - say 2 programmers, a sys admin, operator, director/mis and; ??? running an entire company / division !!! Eat that IBM ! B Oh wait. Because of the lack of an empire, out sourcing the entireF department was done in the blink of an eye. Opps !!!! Another negative stroke! & ======================================    Thus of the so called zillions,  give us a percentage of:D - those who HAD knowledge and experience on a vax (and thus possibly alpha)A - those still living breathing and coding (if programmers are the ; discussion point, other wise use the words "system admins") A - those who have NOT moved on to different hardware, and thus are  current in their field   What number do you get now? = Is it a Zillion? or is it more like a Thousand WORLD WIDE ??? " Is a thousand too large a number?     
 So, lets see. F Should we go ahead and blame the poor guy because he wants to work ANY WHERE in the world?    Yeah.  Let's nail him. 0 No reason to all bleed the same colour of blood!   Jerrold / (still programming in cobol. do I win a prize?)    ----------------------   * On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:09:14 +0100, wrote:   >Fabio Cardoso wrote:  >  >> Just checking again.... >>  9 >> My OpenVMS time is finishing here in Brazil. Oct/2004.  >>  = >> How are the positions in EU ? UK, Spain, DE and Austria ?   >>   >> Lets check ....  > 9 >Fabio, we've been through this before, and sorry to pour   >cold water on your aspirations. > ; >Why should you (a non-EU citizen) be granted a work permit = >to work in the EU, when there are zillions of well-qualified < >VMS people in the EU (with the right of abode here) who are >desperate for VMS employment ?  >  >Sorry, you've got *no* chance.  > 5 >And sorry that your VMS time is finishing in Brazil.  > - >Now, if you can play decent football ... :-)  > 
 >Roy Omond >Blue Bubble Ltd.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:27:56 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>E Subject: Re: OpenVMS probably the best designed o/s in  the market... 2 Message-ID: <7vydnUNZBJlpqW3dRVn-gg@metrocast.net>  ) "MB" <mb301@hotmail.com> wrote in message 7 news:1d08b916.0407090143.2e2eaeb8@posting.google.com... < > Does anyone have next week copy of Comperter Weekly yet... > (6-Jul-2004) > @ > OpenVMS is probably one of the best designed and most reliableC > operating systems on the market, so why is it unnoticed and under  > apprecicated?  >   > http://www.computerweekly.com/  B Their search function couldn't find a recent reference to 'vms' orG 'openvms':  is it possible that their Web page hasn't been updated yet?    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:03:03 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>2 Subject: Re: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall. Message-ID: <40EFF717.25192.9646BE2@localhost>  4 On 10 Jul 2004 at 17:56, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote:@ > > [Yes, Another Shameless Plug (tm) from your local CHARON-VAX > > reseller.] >  > *MY* local reseller ??? ( > Maybe the whole Internet is "local"...  , I meant "local" as "one of the [news]group".  F My sales area is only North America.  However, if you'd like to buy a C copy of CHARON-VAX, I can put you directly in touch with the right   person.   
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:06:55 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>2 Subject: RE: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall- Message-ID: <40EFF7FF.9739.967F73E@localhost>   ) On 10 Jul 2004 at 6:59, Tom Linden wrote: D > If you condier the points you enumerated in a bit more detail, youE > would have to conclude that the launch of Alpha was poorly planned.   B I agree.  However, I wasn't running DEC at the time.  Or now, for  that matter...  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:10:26 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall@ Message-ID: <b2c647f0cf7e3f5c34b5a108b4f24f0d@news.teranews.com>   Tom Linden wrote:  > D > If you condier the points you enumerated in a bit more detail, youE > would have to conclude that the launch of Alpha was poorly planned.   N The problem is that it coincided with the start of the Palmer "slash and burn"G era, where so many products were let go, moving Digital from a software J company where it was mildly succesful into a hardware company where it was unable to compete.  K The one "technical" fault of the alpha migration was vest which wasn't 105% I functional (as was the Apple equivalent for 68k binaries on PowerPC). And N there was the licencing costs of moving from vax to alpha, especially in casesN where the same software was not ported to alpha (message router to mailbus 400K require total repurchase of mailbus 400 with no credit for MR for instance)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:52:16 -0400 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>2 Subject: Re: VAX Users See the Writing on the Wall. Message-ID: <40F010B0.15256.9C868CE@localhost>  ( On 10 Jul 2004 at 18:10, JF Mezei wrote:H > The one "technical" fault of the alpha migration was vest which wasn'tB > 105% functional (as was the Apple equivalent for 68k binaries on > PowerPC).   C Quite true.  However, CHARON-VAX is available for Alpha as well as  
 Windows...  
 --Stan Quayle  Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USA 0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.380 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ec.music.industrial:53986

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