1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 12 Jul 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 382       Contents:+ Re: Accuweather video mentions VMS (TWICE!) + Re: Accuweather video mentions VMS (TWICE!) + Re: Accuweather video mentions VMS (TWICE!)  Re: CDSA - experiences/help? Re: fork() problem+ Re: g77 linker "multiple definition" errors + Re: g77 linker "multiple definition" errors - Re: Getting the RAB from BASIC channel number , Once again PHP --> OCI8 --> Rdb [WORKING!!!]6 Re: OpenVMS Management Station -  cluster storage ???? RE: OpenVMS Positions - Europe Re: OpenVMS Positions - Europe  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2004 20:05:22 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: Accuweather video mentions VMS (TWICE!)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0407111905.65af3bbd@posting.google.com>   e David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F05032.38632A7B@comcast.net>...  > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:
 > > [snip]! > > But I still say the good from ! > > this video outweighs the bad.  > H > Yes, the good does outweigh the bad. However, the balance is still not9 > sufficiently positive to elicit an endorsement from me.   4 So you prefer zero promotion to some promotion. WHY?   > C > If/when it is made more inclusive, I'll review it again and I may + > reconsider at that point. Until then, ...  > H > Would it make you feel better if I give them a D-- (D, double minus: aG > passing grade, but just barely - better than F++ which is where I had E > them before for going almost far enough, but stopping just short of  > passing)?    Nope.    [...]    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2004 20:25:22 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: Accuweather video mentions VMS (TWICE!)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0407111925.5682068d@posting.google.com>   e David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F05466.F0C48F98@comcast.net>...  > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > i > > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40EF484B.6FFF29CF@comcast.net>... L > > > winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")I > > > wrote in message news:<00A348A8.2DF7BAB4@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>... D > > > > In article <40EDF146.B11E6051@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera+ > > > > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: ! > > > > >"Alan E. Feldman" wrote: 
 > > > > >>H > > > > >> David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message* >  news:<40EC9D16.6F16C23E@comcast.net>...% > > > > >> > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:  > > > > >> > >L > > > > >> > > Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@news.widomaker.com> wrote in2 >  message news:<bi5fcc.lt2.ln@escape.goid.lan>...H > > > > >> > > > On 2004-07-06, Alan E. Feldman <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>
 > > >  wrote:  >  [...]M > > > > >Should we tell that to the families who lost loved ones in the hotel J > > > > >balcony collapse in St Louis some years back? ...in various DC-10& > > > > >crashes? ...Ford Pinto fires? > > > > L > > > > The only plausible assumption I can come up with here is that you're >  just J > > > > arguing for fun, since you surely can't believe that putting a VMS >  promotionalK > > > > video in a WMP-only format is really going to lead to loss of life.  >  If you'reM > > > > arguing seriously, you've just made an unjustified appeal to emotion.  > > > M > > > Not quite. It's logic, and machine logic at that: either the "principle J > > > bit" is "on" or it's "off". Either you have principles or you don't./ > > > Potential for loss of life is irrelevant.  > > ? > > If it sells more VMS systems, who the hell cares about your D > > principles? Still, I find your loss of life examples irrelevant. >   i > > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40EF484B.6FFF29CF@comcast.net>... / > > > Potential for loss of life is irrelevant.  > + > What part of that did you not understand?   + You're the one who brought up loss of life.    > 	 > > [...] L > > > > I'm a webmaster on a moderately-busy site that gets a million hits a	 >  month, G > > > > many from scientific personnel who presumably use their regular M > > > > workstations.  This isn't randomly-assorted home users.  According to  >  my K > > > > logs, the overwhelming majority of hits are from Windows platforms,  >  even - > > > > from this highly-technical community.  > > > J > > > So, folks who don't "follow the piper" deserve to be left out in theK > > > cold? That point doesn't wash with me. As I've said before, "How many   F Left out in the cold? The VMS-ers already have VMS! So hp is guilty ofC not cc-ing the video to those very few who somehow cannot manage to & find a system to view it on. Big deal.  @ > > Much less so than we VMSers deserving more VMS in the world! > I > I read that as: VMSers are less deserving of more VMS in the world than A > Windowsweenies are of more Windows. Did I follow you correctly?   A Nope. Your selective quoting is making it difficult to comment. I F thought this had to do with you and VAXMAN being able to see hp videosD vs. selling more VMS. It seems to me that you're saying that you andE VAXMAN have the right for hp to issue versions of its promo videos in F whatever systems you have. I don't think that's a reasonable position.D What I was trying to say is that... Wait a minute, just a moment ...< just a moment ... the AE-35 ...  sorry, wrong ng. Look at my  statement. I'll repeat it below.  @ > > Much less so than we VMSers deserving more VMS in the world!  B I am saying that VMSers ARE DESERVING OF MORE VMS IN THE WORLD andD that that is more important than you and VAXMAN seeing the hp video.A Capice? How did you manage to twist that into its exact opposite?   H > > Hey, people with a message are not under any obligation to make sureI > > everyone in the world hears it. If someone publishes a book, and it's F > > not available in every book store, guess what? You'll have to shop > > around until you find it.  > F > ...and if its published in French in a Tagalog-speaking country, who0 > missed the boat? The natives or the publisher?  B But that's not what HP did. They published in Windows in a Windows world.   > 	 > > [...] ) > > > > But your complaints are about the H > > > > same as, if HP ran a commercial promoting VMS on the Super Bowl,: > > > > complaining that they'd deliberately neglected the >  non-football-watchingI > > > > audience and they should have bought time on whatever was running 
 >  againstH > > > > it too, without ever saying "Cool! A VMS commercial on the Super > > > Bowl!" > > > 0 > > > Non-sequitur and an invalid extrapolation. > > > K > > > ....and if hp were dumb enough to advertise VMS at the Super Bowl and C > > > nowhere else, they'd deserve to lose their entire advertising F > > > investment. True, they consistently make dumb business decisionsF > > > concerning VMS, but that would be truly amazingly dumb and truly > > > disappointing. > > I > > Well, to do the Super Bowl and not follow up with more ads soon after  > > would perhaps be foolish.  > ' > That was my point, yes. More below...   F OK. Point taken; no one said otherwise. But that's a time issue, not aE platform issue. Even so, that would still be better than no ad at the  Super Bowl.   . > > But we're talking the Super Bowl here. I'mI > > probably the only one in the country who doesn't watch it every year! C > > I can't see it being a dumb move except perhaps for the cost of G > > running the ad. Hey, Apple did it and I'm not aware of that hurting 	 > > them.  > G > Apple has their brand visible in stores, other ads and even in cinema J > (see "What Women Want) starring x Gibson and Helen Hunt. They can affordJ > to throw a big wad of bux at an ad that can give their existing exposureG > a boost. VMS doesn't have that luxury. If they don't first build some F > recognition, then boost it, then follow up on the boost, they may as( > well flush the money down the commode.  * Well, they may not get the maximum effect.   > > Point ... Winston. > ! > BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT  Try again...    Point ... Winston.   > 	 > > [...] 3 > > > > Ah, so your claim is that it's a conspiracy  > > > M > > > Nope, don't find that one either. Are you reading the same thread I am?  > > > % > > > > among the marketing mavens to J > > > > sell people on Windows by producing promotional videos for VMS.  I >  don't& > > > > find that entirely convincing. > > > L > > > Considering that I never attempted to promote that statement, I'd have > > > to agree with you. > > > L > > > My point was that sometimes what is done speaks more convincingly than > > > what is said.  > > >  > > > Try this:  > > > L > > > Note that the SAN management appliance software is based on M$ and notK > > > x/Motif, and VMS-side utilities are virtually non existant aside from L > > > SSSU and HSZTERM$SCSIPAD (which is not supported by CSC, and as of theM > > > HSG80 firmware version 871-7, is (reportedly) not even supported by the  > > > HSGs). > > > $ > > > What statement does this make? > > > 
 > > > Why? > > 0 > > That you don't know how to spell 'existent'? > > , > > If it sells more VMS systems, who cares? > J > Does it sell more VMS systems? ...or does it sell SANs and Windows boxesH > to run the SAN appliance software? (Think carefully before answering.)  E David, how does the Accuweather video promote SANs and Windows? There E is zero mention of such. There IS mention of OpenVMS Alpha Servers as B being the "lynchpin" of Accuweather's computer systems. Anyone whoE sees the video is not going to think about who else might not be able > to view it. They are going to think about how great VMS is for Accuweather.  E No actually I think this HP video is really a promotion for Progresso 
 soups. ;-)   > 	 > > [...] K > > > I don't recall that either, nor do I recall anyone saying anything so N > > > negative in this case, either, although Brian feels (and I agree that heJ > > > is) justified in complaining that VMS users who choose to exclude M$L > > > from their homes/offices were left out. He expressed that *HE* was theH > > > one who had been insulted, rather than issuing a vitriolic insult. > > E > > So go view it in a library! or an Internet Cafe, if any are still  > > around.  > J > I'll leave it to Brian (if he's still bothering with this thread) to sayG > whether he considers that solution as meeting hos needs, or VMS's for  > that matter.  C I don't care if you and Brian never see the video. I care that this C gives VMS exposure and that can only help. Few endeavors escape the & criticism "it could have been better".  H > > Hey, I do not have a television set. Does that mean that advertisersJ > > are dopes/immoral/whatever for putting ads on TV because I, and others$ > > who don't have TV, won't see it? > J > Depends. Are there as many non-TV owners as there are households withoutE > M$ (ignoring, for the moment, locations where the economy and other H > factors are not conducive to according value to the electronic media)?   So what's your threshold?    > - > > There's just no pleasing some people. ;-)  > A > True, but there's no sense pissing off your supporters, either.   A You and VAXMAN are pissed off because you chose to be pissed off. 2 Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, as they say.   > I > Like it or else, VMS, people like Brian and me are on *YOUR* side! Piss  > us off at your own peril!    Is this a threat?   9 Go ahead. Be pissed off. It'll only ruin your own health.    > 	 > > [...]  > > > Whaddaya think?  > > >  > > > D.J.D. > > @ > > I don't recall *you* making any efforts with your tabbed DCLG > > formatting example to make *that* work on all browsers. Yeah, screw H > > the users who don't have Netscape or whatever you used. Let them eat > > bits!  ;-) > > A > > Yeah, tabs. Talk about device/configuration/and_whatever_else  > > dependency!!!  > $ > Getting desperate for an argument?   Practice what you preach.   H > I've learned that you're rather the immovable object once your mind isG > set; so, go ahead and have the last (unless something in it demands a  > response).   And you're not?    >  > D.J.D.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2004 21:04:35 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)4 Subject: Re: Accuweather video mentions VMS (TWICE!)= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0407112004.5ca50ff7@posting.google.com>   d David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<40F063C5.B38DE1D@comcast.net>..., > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > > d > > In article <40EF484B.6FFF29CF@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:K > > >winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") H > > >wrote in message news:<00A348A8.2DF7BAB4@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>... > >  > > [Alan Feldman]L > > >> >> I disagree. What's more important? Promoting VMS or using standard > > >> >> formats? > > >> > > >  > > [David] B > > >> >Careful, there. Do you mean INDUSTRY standards (negotiated >  industry-wideI > > >> >through a recognized standards body), or de-facto standards? What  >  aboutF > > >> >vendor-specific (and not necessarily compatible) extensions to >  industry  > > >> >standards? > > >> > > [Alan Winston] > > < > > >> That's entirely irrelevant to Alan's point, isn't it? > > > L > > >Perhaps; however, it is entirely relevant to Brian's point which is whyJ > > >this thread got started in the first place: had the video been issuedJ > > >using INDUSTRY standards rather than de-facto standards, we would not# > > >now be having this discussion.  > > Q > > Actually, I don't know about that.  What industry standard video format plays M > > on VMS systems with the factory-installed software?  None.  so you've got L > > to download and install something to be able to play it on your VMS box.N > > People were complaining about having to download WMP or new codecs for it.0 > > Wouldn't we still be having this discussion? > J > We might, but it would likely have evolved as a search for the necessaryI > add-ins, plug-ins, etc. for Netscape/Mozilla/... rather than this grade  > of verbal sparring.  >  > > >  > > >> > [snip] : > > >> >> Yes, but a half-effort is better than no effort: > > >> >L > > >> >Should we tell that to the families who lost loved ones in the hotelI > > >> >balcony collapse in St Louis some years back? ...in various DC-10 % > > >> >crashes? ...Ford Pinto fires?  > > >>K > > >> The only plausible assumption I can come up with here is that you're  >  just I > > >> arguing for fun, since you surely can't believe that putting a VMS  >  promotionalJ > > >> video in a WMP-only format is really going to lead to loss of life. >  If you'reL > > >> arguing seriously, you've just made an unjustified appeal to emotion. > > > L > > >Not quite. It's logic, and machine logic at that: either the "principleI > > >bit" is "on" or it's "off". Either you have principles or you don't. . > > >Potential for loss of life is irrelevant. > > Q > > It seems to me obvious in this case that a marketing effort that can probably J > > reach the overwhelming majority of the target market is better than noM > > marketing effort.  Does this mean I have no principles?  (I'm not casting 4 > > about for an insult here; I'm honestly baffled.) > J > You're baffled because its a non-sequitur: it doesn't follow. The pointsG > are not related, nor has anyone attempted to establish a relationship  > between them.    Which points, David?   > J > Where priciples come in is either you finish the job right or you settle  > for "just barely good enough".  D Well, you have to define what "finishing the job" means. You have to$ take into account limited resources.  > In this case, the principle of increasing the VMS base is more7 important than anything else you've brought up. Period.   G > "Just barely good enough" is not what got VMS to where it is today in = > terms of the features it is known for (security, stability,  > functionality, etc.).   F And being the best is what brought it to its recent long-term decline?  C > "Just barely good enough" is why corporations are starting to ban D > Interhose Exploder, and may eventually begin to ban M$ completely.  @ Sure took long enough! My company has no plans to do such. We've thought about it, though.   H > (That's a hint, BTW, to the entrepreneurially inclined: opportunity is > knocking!) >  > > > G > > >> The Ford Pinto problem, if memory serves, wasn't the result of a  >  half-effort; L > > >> what was really shocking about it was that they did a risk assessment >  andI > > >> concluded that the amount they'd have to pay out in wrongful death  >  lawsuits L > > >> if they didn't fix it was going to be less than what it would cost to
 >  fix it,L > > >> and decided to go with the lawsuits.  That wasn't a half-effort; that	 >  was an  > > >> evil decision.  > > > J > > >....but fails to address the root cause: a design flaw which was that7 > > >the fuel tank was left unprotected against impact.  > > P > > (But, see, they knew about the design flaw and what it would take to fix it,N > > and they decided not to.  Not a half effort - an evil decision. So I don't1 > > see this example as illustrating your point.)  > H > It was meant as a clarification of root cause: had crash testing been F > sufficiently through, these cars would not have made it out the doorH > because someone in government would have told them they can't market a  > car that "explodes on impact".  9 This Ford Pinto example is irrelevant to this discussion.    >  > > >  > > >> >C > > >> >Either you have principles or you don't - it's that simple.  > > > $ > > >I stand by that statement 100%. > > 8 > > Okay, fine.  Can you explain what principle this is? > $ > Do it right or don't do it at all.  B Selling more VMS is right. You can't do everything to the max. YouA can't be perfect with everything. With this attitude, very little  would ever get done.   >  > > >  > > >>M > > >> (In the real world, as you're fond of patronizingly telling people you  >  live I > > >> in, principles are often in conflict.  That's the case here.  Alan K > > >> prioritizes  the principle that there ought to be some VMS marketing 	 >  effort B > > >> higher than  the principle that all collateral should be inJ > > >> platform-agnostic formats.  You apparently invert those priorities, >  and0 > > >> paint any other stance as unprincipled. ) > > > J > > >Careful there - you're swinging your pendulum to extremes rather thanK > > >finding the middle ground: I don't "invert those priorities", rather I ( > > >hold that they are not in conflict. > > + > > But you're talking as though they were/  > I > I'm talking as if they are two sides of the same coin, not opposites of J > different coins. They cannot be separated. A half-done job is half-done.B > A well-done job is well-done. The bit is either "on" or its not.  2 Nonsense. The world is more complicated than that.   > ' > > >The effort, while laudable, "sends K > > >the wrong message" (another popular bit of rhetoric these days). If it K > > >was targetted at Windows users, it should have been billed as such, in F > > >which case Brian and others would have been less likely to expectF > > >platform-universality (I believe - I may be wrong on that point). > > M > > It's targeted at people who might buy VMS systems, most of whom are using O > > Windows browsers already.  (I don't like being in the position of defending N > > what I think was kind of a half-assed move to start with, but I just don'tM > > think it's that bad.  It's not a deliberate effort to sell Windows boxes; K > > it's an effort to sell VMS boxes, and we should applaud efforts to sell O > > VMS boxes.  It would be better if it were platform-agnostic or available in  > > multiple formats.) > # > I think we're all agreed on that.    Then what is your problem?   >  > > >  > > >> > > >> >D > > >> >> Yes, it is true: it would have been better to have used an
 >  "agnostic" H > > >> >> [?] format. But this is still better than nothing and is to be& > > >> >> encouraged, not pooh-poohed. > > >> >K > > >> >Depends. Kinda hard to show to Linux users, Solaris users, etc. who  >  lack  > > >> >Media Slayer.  > > >>K > > >> I'm a webmaster on a moderately-busy site that gets a million hits a 	 >  month, F > > >> many from scientific personnel who presumably use their regularL > > >> workstations.  This isn't randomly-assorted home users.  According to >  my J > > >> logs, the overwhelming majority of hits are from Windows platforms, >  even , > > >> from this highly-technical community. > > > I > > >So, folks who don't "follow the piper" deserve to be left out in the J > > >cold? That point doesn't wash with me. As I've said before, "How manyM > > >wrongs does it take to make a right?" (Although I acknowledge that three  > > >rights make a left. ;-) > > N > > That's never been what I was saying.  I've said repeatedly that I think itN > > would be better in a platform-agnostic format, and I agree.  The Linux andR > > Solaris and VMS users should get a nice MPEG or whatever that they can readilyK > > view; it's silly to cut out any part of your potential audience when it P > > doesn't cost much in resources to reach them.  But the considerable majorityN > > of browser users can see what's there, and that's better than not having a' > > marketing message out there at all.  > E > Trouble is, the remainder of the effort remains lacking, even as we ( > speak. So, it's still only half-done.   A You're starving to death. A half meal is certainly better than no B meal. A half meal every day could keep you alive. No meals and you	 will die.   H > Suppose your recent book had been half-done. Would you be proud of it? > Would it have sold?   E Irrelevant: You're starving to death. A half meal is certainly better F than no meal. A half meal every day could keep you alive. No meals and
 you will die.   F More importantly, the hp video is not half done in the same way. It is% a complete video. Oranges and apples.   J > > >> Whether something that serves the overwhelming majority of browsersL > > >> actually deployed is "better than nothing" doesn't seem to be much of >  a > > >> question. [...]  > > O > > Nope.  What I just did was to give evidence for the position that what they M > > did is a _lot_ better than nothing.  You seem to keep arguing against the L > > better-than-nothing position (on the grounds, apparently, of an unstatedJ > > principle), and I don't understand how you can maintain that position. > E > I just can't support the "most is good enough" idea. It isn't. It's  > shoddy work. Period.   It's not shoddy.   > J > How many of us would get full pay for doing most of our job, but not all > of it?  : Maybe the job was to put out the promo on Windows Player.    > P > > I am not arguing, and have not argued, that it's as good as possible; I have9 > > only argued that it's better than no marketing video.  > F > ...and I have acknowledged that its a good start. Now when will they > finish the job?   E Who are you to dictate what the job is? Just exactly what constitutes  finishing the job?   >  > > >  > > >> and it would certainly G > > >> distress me if, say, the ITRC completely required that you use a 
 >  Windows/ > > >> system to get software for your VMS box.  > > > J > > >Well, ITRC sort of does. Browsing the patch tree using Multinet's FTPL > > >client (or even WRQ's older Reflection/FTP client V6.10, newer ones areI > > >only marginally usable) is not what I would call convenient. Reports M > > >here have indicated that Mozilla on VMS is not entirely useful for ITRC, $ > > >unless that has been corrected. > > >  > > S > > It's not convenient, but it's possible; that's why I said "completely required" A > > rather than just "promoted."  You can still use your VMS box.  > H > Agreed. It's just not what we have come to expect from the VMS service > organization.  > ( > > >> But your complaints are about theG > > >> same as, if HP ran a commercial promoting VMS on the Super Bowl, 9 > > >> complaining that they'd deliberately neglected the  >  non-football-watchingH > > >> audience and they should have bought time on whatever was running
 >  againstG > > >> it too, without ever saying "Cool! A VMS commercial on the Super  > > >Bowl!"  > > > / > > >Non-sequitur and an invalid extrapolation.  > > C > > The Super Bowl is one TV show watched by a vast majority of the R > > available viewers.  Buy an ad on the Super Bowl and it will be seen by more TVN > > viewers than an ad on any other show.  But there are definitely people who? > > won't see it (like me, actually); they don't like football.  > H > The number of folks who would be likely to remember, for any length ofF > time, a product that they saw only once briefly while getting a beerG > between quarters/halves is likely to be sufficiently low as to render E > the investment a near-total loss. They won't see ads elsewhere, and H > since they've likely never seen it before, and are likely to never seeI > it again, the chances of them remembering are rather poor. Even if they I > should remember "VMS", and go Yahoo!-ing, Googling, etc. for it, was it F > "Vendor Management System", "Voluntary Milking System", "Video MediaF > Services", or any of the other possible hits besides what we usually > think of as VMS?   Apple.   > G > > I think this is exactly analogous to the Windows-specific-format vs Q > > something easily viewable on Mac, Linux, Solaris, or VMS.  You pick up by far K > > the largest chunk of the available audience in one shot.  So it's not a P > > non-sequitur, it's an exact analogy.  You seem to be resisting saying "Cool,Q > > a VMS video on the website!" and going straight to "these unprincipled people 0 > > are trying to subliminally promote Windows." >  > I never said either of those.    Oh, please. You have said so.    > C > Since the point seems to gotten lost, let me state it clearly and J > unequivocally: Brian felt left out. He responded to it and expressed his > feelings.  > 7 > *THAT* and *THAT ALONE* is what this thread is about.   > All this fuss because one person got left out. So we shouldn'tB increase the VMS base unless Brian gets to see the video. LOL! You6 would prefer HP-UX videos in platform-agnostic format?   > G > In the end, perhaps it comes down to this: how many (more) supporters H > can VMS afford to lose / piss off / ignore until they become an enemy?  3 Anyone pissed off by this video is hopeless anyway.    >  > > > J > > >....and if hp were dumb enough to advertise VMS at the Super Bowl andB > > >nowhere else, they'd deserve to lose their entire advertisingE > > >investment. True, they consistently make dumb business decisions E > > >concerning VMS, but that would be truly amazingly dumb and truly  > > >disappointing.  > > Q > > If they bought one TV ad, the Super Bowl would be the place to do it.  And it - > > could hook up to places to get more info.  >  > See the above. >  > > >  > > >> >M > > >> >> > > Which would get a more positive response from hp in the future? E > > >> >> > > Thanking hp for this promotion and asking them to use a  >  "standardG > > >> >> > > format" in the future or just harping on them without the  >  slightest= > > >> >> > > recognition of them having done something good?  > > >> >> > L > > >> >> > Depends. Were they not so consistent in ignoring the non-WindowsB > > >> >> > population, one might be more inclined to overlook the >  short-fall. When H > > >> >> > their every move re-validates the "Windows is the world, the >  world is J > > >> >> > Windows" mantra, ... fill in your own ending to that sentence.	 > > >> >> M > > >> >> Since most of the world is on Windows, there are few who would miss F > > >> >> the video. Why get all bent out of shape over missing a few? > > >> >I > > >> >Why settle for mediocrity when you can achieve excellence? (Hint:  >  DoingL > > >> >what everyone else does and getting what everyone else gets *IS* the" > > >> >definition of mediocrity.) > > >>; > > >> So everybody else is promoting VMS to Windows users?  > > > < > > >Where did you see that in this thread? I don't find it. > > N > > (So right up there in the paragraph above, you're suggesting that settlingR > > for a Windows-format promotion of VMS is settling for mediocrity, and definingO > > mediocrity as "doing what everyone else does and getting what everyone else K > > gets", which implies that you think everyone else is promoting VMS with  > > Windows-format videos, > : > Oops! I think I might see where you're getting confused. > J > I made reference to the fact that sometimes, marketing is done in a veryE > "left-handed" way. Rather like an ad - oh say, we see two teenagers I > singing the glory of drugs, alcohol and driving while intoxicated, then I > at the very end of the ad, you realize they are ghosts floating above a C > cemetery and perhaps have not yet grasped the fact that they have  > "passed on". > H > What's the message here? Drugs, alcohol and vehicular irresponsibilityH > are good? ...or that such things will leave you so dead that you won't > know it for a good long time?   6 Uh, there were no ghosts in the VMS Accuweather video.   > E > Suppose I'm a car dealer. I run an ad for my lot where at the end I D > drive off in a smoking, back-firing old beater. What's the message > there?  ) How is the hp video in any way like this?    > I > Now, suppose I run an ad for *ANY* non-Windows system, but the only way F > to get more information is to go to my website which only works withH > Interhose Exploder. What's the message there? Did I miss a key element > in my marketing strategy?   E The message to whom, Dave? People who use IE won't be aware of it not D being viewable without IE. People who don't have IE won't be able to see it.   # Again: 0.5 > 0. Make that 0.8 > 0.     > + > Let's turn this a little bit to the left:  > A > Suppose my non-Windows business is flying high, I've got a good I > following, and devise a whole new program for distrubuting information, H > etc. to my partners, VARs, OEMs, etc. - that only works with Interhose8 > Exploder. What's the message I'm sending to my people?  
 Not relevant.    [...]  > > >Try this: > > > K > > >Note that the SAN management appliance software is based on M$ and not J > > >x/Motif, and VMS-side utilities are virtually non existant aside fromK > > >SSSU and HSZTERM$SCSIPAD (which is not supported by CSC, and as of the L > > >HSG80 firmware version 871-7, is (reportedly) not even supported by the > > >HSGs).  > > > # > > >What statement does this make?  >    > > > 	 > > >Why?  > > G > > It says that they find it easier and more economical to produce SAN L > > interfaces with Microsoft tools, and the customer base hasn't complainedK > > loudly enough or refused to buy the products until there's adequate VMS M > > support.   I think that really sucks, and they need to think more clearly N > > about what's needed for real 24x7 operation - which includes controls thatB > > are generally scriptable.  (I don't think I'm violating NDA toM > > say that the customers at the Bootcamp in May complained extremely loudly K > > about it to the storageworks VP who'd come to talk about future product  > > strategy.) > H > ...as do I - to whomever from hp, at every possible opportunity. DunnoI > if that message will ever sink inte any of the many think-skulls at hp, 9 > but hope springs eternal for deluded fools like myself.  > B > >  And that does say that Storageworks thinks more about Windows: > > than about VMS, although it's possible that'll change. > J > Possible, but not likely - until hp's attitude changes and the change is; > manifested outwardly in clear, undeniable, material ways.    The SAN bit is not relevent. [...] K > > >> (I know behaviorists prefer rewarding and reinforcing behaviors they J > > >> approve of and extinguishing ones they don't, and yelling at people >  forK > > >> trying to do the right thing is likely to extinguish that behavior.)  > > > G > > >Actually, if I were in that position, I would say something to the M > > >effect of, "Good work, Johnny! Now, let's finish the job so everyone can ) > > >view it and no one gets left out..."  > > L > > Well, fine!  If you were taking that position anent this video question,9 > > neither Alan Feldman nor I would be arguing with you.   E Actually, I would. No matter what you do, *someone* will be left out. = So since you never can include everyone, there is no point ine advertising anything. Hmmm.C   > 4 > Odd - that *IS* my position and my *ENTIRE* point! > F > I do not bill my self as a orator or a debater. I'm a techie, and anG > amazingly mediocre one, at that. But, I do the best I can with what I"I > have (measured IQ: 79, actual IQ unknown). I expect no more or nor less C > than that from myself, and expect, perhaps wrongly, the same fromt	 > others.  >  [...]r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:33:29 -0400 ! From: Hal Kuff <kuff@comcast.net>-% Subject: Re: CDSA - experiences/help?a< Message-ID: <kuff-3139AC.17332911072004@library.airnews.net>  - In article <YfcIc.52159$JR4.38723@attbi_s54>,m9  "Tom Simpson" <thomas.simpson1@fubar.comcast.net> wrote:3  4 > Is anyone writing applications using the CDSA API? > M > We have a client that is requesting that all of their data be encrypted and M > I'm exploring the possibilities on how to do that.  It looks like CDSA willdK > allow us to encrypt the data at the field level.  I'm wondering if anyonehH > has tried that and what the impact on performance is in general terms. > M > All of our data is in RMS files that are accessed from a custom applicationt) > written in BASIC and using lots of FMS,i- > running VMS 7.3-1 on a 2-node ES40 cluster.  > K > We are also looking into converting the application to Oracle, since I'veiM > been told that it's a fairly easy matter to encrypt the data once your data  > is in Oracle.o > F > No matter what path we take, it looks like this is going to be major
 > project. > 5 > I'm open to suggentions for alternative approaches.2 > 	 > Thanks,m > Tomi >  >  >     F   We have successfully deployed a 3DES callable routine that encrypts G and decrypts data as a standard RTL langauge CDSA V2.0 routine.  Works  C just fine, we call it about 10,000 times per day to work with data 6B stored in Oracle and Oracle/RDB as well as RMS Index files. It is G compatibe with the Oracle implementation. I have sample basic language B: test routines, I prefer to test things in OpenVMS Basic...  I   I can also refer you to a great consultant that can do something a bit AI more custom (the fellow that did this work for us is very good).  In any 1B case I could pass on to you or anyone else enough code to get you 	 started. s     Kuff _at_ tessco dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:20:06 -0400t2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> Subject: Re: fork() problemn. Message-ID: <40F168B6.24870.F083FEC@localhost>  C > I am an OpenVMS newbie, experiencing some porting problem... I ammA > trying to port an Unix program to VMS and of course I have some + > troubles with the fork() system call ;-) o  B I work with the Unix Portability people at HP.  Not having a real @ Unix "fork" is a known issue.  fork does all sorts of wonderful F things, like opening duplicate channels to I/O and so forth.  Changes : to the kernel of VMS will be required to get that working.  $ That being said, how are using fork?  ? If you're just starting a new process, and don't need to share  F resources (mmap memory, I/O, etc.) with the subprocess, you could use - lib$spawn instead of calling the fork family.   B If your new process needs to share some of this stuff, you have a = design issue on your hands.  At least until VMS V8.3 or so...a  
 --Stan Quaylea Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363n3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USAe0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:23:49 -0400l2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>4 Subject: Re: g77 linker "multiple definition" errors. Message-ID: <40F16995.21881.F0BA922@localhost>  2 On 11 Jul 2004 at 3:45, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:: > It might be that older hardware is available at hobbyist1 > pricing, maybe even more affordable than Alpha.   B Older Itanium hardware won't run VMS.  Initial development was on F "old" systems (because that's what was available), but anything older > than a year or so is almost certain to fail.  Of course, YMMV.  D Gee, I have 4 Multia systems that I don't need anymore.  Interested?  
 --Stan Quayler Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USAd0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:26:40 GMTh0 From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>4 Subject: Re: g77 linker "multiple definition" errors- Message-ID: <A8jIc.59620$IQ4.54387@attbi_s02>t   David J Dachtera wrote:l    (snip regarding OpenVMS/Itanium)  H > At the moment, V8.1 (pre-release version - V8.2 is due out Q4 of 2004)J > can be had for $75 for the media. The hobbyist licenses should work. See# > http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/ .e  6 > Sorry. I don't have a URL handy for the V8.1 CD. TryJ > http://www.hp.com/go/openvms and look around a bit. I may do that myself- > a bit later. If a find a URL, I'll post it.y  S http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/alpha_retaintrust/openvms/81layeredprods.htmlr  ? It seems that BASIC, C++, and Pascal are available, but I don'tt? see anything about Fortran.  The OpenVMS CD is $75, the layered 7 products (compilers and such) are available on the web,  no PAK (license keys) needed.e  6 It might be that it only works until 8.2 is available,& as it is called an evaluation version.  B I wonder if it will run on earlier than Itanium 2 systems, though.  < The web page seems to be pretty restrictive on which systems and I/O devices it allows.   -- glenp   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:57:41 -0400m4 From: "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" <hein_at_hp_dot_com>6 Subject: Re: Getting the RAB from BASIC channel number, Message-ID: <40f21cd7$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  > "Milan Jercic" <milan.jercicNOS@PAMaccess.si> wrote in message% news:40F17B99.8010001@PAMaccess.si...w
 > Hi Mr. RMS,e  : > slightly of the topic, but as you mentioned BASIC & RMS: >dL > How can I get RAB address in Macro-32 (or C) subroutine when all I have is BASICc > channel number? For example:  < Why do you need  that, what problem are you trying to solve?= I just thought of a cute way to get the FAB, (not the RAB)... ; Code up an extra OPEN with USEROPEN my_useropenm CONNECT #nvI The Useropen willl be called with the address of the fab for the old rab, B and a new rab address, which is pretty much a copy of the old rab.    H > Are CCB$PUSH/CCB$POP meant for this? If so, how should be they called?  C They should not be called, those are internal routines. No support.h  $ Can you get VMS listings for basrtl?> Just have a basic program call GETRFA and debug with SET/INTO. Expect it to do something like: (    DBASIC$$CB_PUSH (.CHAN,    1,   CCB);B    if this-that-and-the-other-thing are all valid: CH$MOVE (6, CCB [RAB$W_RFA], .RFA)    DBASIC$$CB_POP (CCB);I   Hint: The RAB is (main) part of the CCB, it start with x4401, should be  easy to find with a debugger.e     useropen example below....   Hein
 -------------a.         open "tmp.idx" for input as file #1, &F                 organization indexed, recordtype any, recordsize 32000/         open "nonsense" for input as file #2, &e'                 organization indexed, & 1                  useropen my_useropen, connect #1p         call sys$hiber()         end     L FUNCTION LONG my_useropen ( Fabdef User_fab, Rabdef User_rab, LONG Channel )     OPTION TYPE = EXPLICIT@    %INCLUDE "$FABDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "$RABDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "$RMSDEF" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"@    %INCLUDE "STARLET" %FROM %LIBRARY "SYS$LIBRARY:BASIC$STARLET"       DECLARE LONG    Rms_status4     print "FAB=",LOC(USER_FAB), "RAB=",LOC(USER_RAB)(     Rms_status = Sys$connect( User_rab ) END FUNCTION Rms_status  :   2 FAB=           2063284072   RAB=           15728526   X = 2063284072   Hex = 7AFB3768  Octal = 172766335503   Y = 1572852   Hex = 0017FFF4  Octal = 00005777764  :  SDA> show proc /rms=(rab,fab)h   FAB Address:    7AFB3768! BID:            03             3.n! BLN:            50            80.  :l RAB Address:    0017FFF4< BID:            01             1.       ISI:            0002! BLN:            44            68.  :  RAB Address:    0017814C< BID:            01             1.       ISI:            0001! BLN:            44            68.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:19:45 GMT 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>e5 Subject: Once again PHP --> OCI8 --> Rdb [WORKING!!!] : Message-ID: <BhhIc.1391$Cv6.20@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>  ? (for those of you who are not on the Oracle Rdb list server...)   G YEEE-HAAAAAA... I finally got it to work.... It's a good thing you can  I run PHP scripts interactively so you can turn on "set watch " so you can tI figure out what it is doing.... Turns out that there were a few logicals oH missing like APACHE$OCI_SHR must point to the real Oracle817 client and > NLS_LANG must be set to a language, not a directory structure:  ( using this definition, everything works.6 "APACHE$OCI_SHR" = "ORA_ROOT:[UTIL]ORACLIENT_V817.EXE" "NLS_LANG" = "AMERICAN_AMERICA"e   using this one does not:A $ define apache$oci_shr SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]SQLSRV_SQLNETSHR71.EXES= $!! is there an SQL/Services image that is the equivalent to e oraclient_v817.exe???e# $ php firstdbasource_com:testdb.phpo  >> Content-type: text/html  <<   >> X-Powered-By: PHP/4.3.2 <<  , Warning: ocilogon(): _oci_open_server: x in [url snipped] on line 21 Nope - Did not work...  D So, my first script is quite simple, it takes a few fields from the F personnel database and displays them in a table. It is not stellar in G speed - due to the many layers of applications it must traverse before f being presented....a  ' Browser => Apache -> PHP interpreter -> # PHP_OCI8 ->Oracle Client to connectt PHP_OCI8 -> parse 9 PHP_OCI8 -> execute -> network -> sqlServices -> databasei4 PHP_OCI8 -> fetch results from returned array -> PHP+ process the stuff. --> back to the browser.t  H This is, of course an over-simplification of the process, but no wonder = it is not stellar in speed -- doesn't help that the box is a  - single-processor EV3or4?? (Alpha 2100 275Mhz).  D But hey, I can now connect to Oracle8/9, Rdb and MySQL using PHP on 6 OpenVMS. I hope everyone is enjoying their weekend....   Michael Austin Consultant - AvailableH http://www.firstdbasource.com -- (add /testdb.php to the end to see the  above work.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:31:56 +0800s, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>? Subject: Re: OpenVMS Management Station -  cluster storage ????w0 Message-ID: <871xjil7j7.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  2 dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) writes:  A >      "PROD11: Shadow set DSA12: has no member device on NODE01"r  D > This implies to me that the Shadow set has no members !!?  Is this > what it is really saying ???  C Is NODE01 a cluster memeber or a controller? If it is a controller, G it would seem to be somewhat less of a worry than if it was a host thate now has a 0 member shadow set.   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2004 14:10:58 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: RE: OpenVMS Positions - Europeg3 Message-ID: <1Sibu84jMShu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   | In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB394C6B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:  I > Fwiw, while it might seem "cool" to use newer languages, the reality iseF > that adopting J2EE *or* .Net both require a major skills set upgradeF > from where companies are today. The reason is that both are based onG > object oriented (OO) programming concepts / theory and that is a big, ' > big jump for many companies IT staff.1  H And when it comes right down to it, Object Oriented programming is _not_ the answer to all problems.<   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2004 15:39:27 GMT< From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann)' Subject: Re: OpenVMS Positions - Europes0 Message-ID: <ccrmvf$77k$2@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  n In article <f30679fb.0407070507.2e012d0b@posting.google.com>, fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes: >Just checking again.... > 7 >My OpenVMS time is finishing here in Brazil. Oct/2004.S > ; >How are the positions in EU ? UK, Spain, DE and Austria ? d >  >Lets check ....e  M There aren't that many. On the other hand, Germany has a special "Green-card" M for IT professionals. The thing here is to find an employer who is willing toe, hire you. Then your chances aren't that bad.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann>   -- aE  Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452n  ImmunbiologieI  Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot dea  D-79011  Freiburg, Germanyt9                http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.htmle   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.382 ************************>now be having this discussion.  > > Q > > Actually, I don't know about that.  What industry standard video format plays M > > on VMS systp://www.wtgonline.com/data/fra/fra.asp" sdesc="World+Travel+Guide%3A+France" ldesc="The+World+Travel+Guide%27s+complete+breakdown+on+travel+information+for+France+with+a+detailed+description+of+France%2C+city+and+airport+guide+and+help+for+booking+a+flight+or+renting+a+car.+">
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<NaviLinkData ID=60 url="http://www.agora.stm.it/politic/france.htm" sdesc="Political+Resources%3A+France" ldesc="Agora%27s+selection+of+links+to+the+parties%2C+%0Aorganizations+and+institutions+that+make+up+%0AFrance%27s+body+politic.">
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