1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 31 Jul 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 420       Contents:" Re: downloading a VMS distribution' Re: Encouraging programming on OpenVMS? : Re: FCIA applauds HP's "thought leadership" on FATA drives# Re: HP World, OpenVMS Bootcamp, etc  Re: Mount disk at startup? Re: Mount disk at startup?% Re: Multinet on VMS 5.5 please HELP !  Re: Need Help with SNMP 9 Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1 - conneting to internet via ADSL  Re: Preventing fragmentation.  Re: Qt ready for OpenVMS Alpha. # Re: Running VMS on a simulated VAX? 6 Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server6 Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server6 Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server6 Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server6 Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server6 Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems  Re: Touch Screen Voting systems * Re: [Hobbyist] Please fix Webserverproblem2 Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?2 Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?2 Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?2 Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 18:23:50 -05004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)+ Subject: Re: downloading a VMS distribution 3 Message-ID: <6hAuOHFInt3J@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <sHZLc.648$AY5.561@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, Andrew Walters <awxrt001@yahoo.com> writes: > David J Dachtera wrote:  >  >> Don't need your address.  >>  @ >> For example, I am in suburban Chicago, IL. Are you near here? > : > Only cosmologically. I'm in NoCal (Northern California). > 3 > [Tofu. Yeah. Coffee that is mainly air. Woo. etc]  >   @ I, too, am in NorCal.  Liberal mind-police state of Berkeley, orB at least close to there.  Chances are I can get you a dist, unless your idea of NorCal is Eureka.   > -- >  relax and enjoy your shoes   # Shoes?  I'm barefoot at the moment.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:41:09 -0500  From: root <root@localhost> 0 Subject: Re: Encouraging programming on OpenVMS?0 Message-ID: <EbednS8d3umKvpbcRVn-oQ@comcast.com>   Joshua Lehrer wrote:E > The way to encourage development on your platform is to provide the C > tools to make developer's lives easier.  An up to date EMACS port D > would be great.  An IDE would be nice, as would be a debugger that > didn't have bugs of its own.  G If you have specific problems with the debugger I'd like to know about  E them. You can contact HP support, post them here, or send them to me  % directly (firstname.lastname@hp.com).    -Jeff Nelson -Project leader, OpenVMS DEBUG   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 17:19:52 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) C Subject: Re: FCIA applauds HP's "thought leadership" on FATA drives = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0407301619.22882b13@posting.google.com>   d "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> wrote in message news:<odqdnZ_lR89HOZTcRVn-qA@mpowercom.net>...P > FC arrays are all very well but they don't mean much for small/medium business > sites.  F HP has not been ignoring the SMB space. HP announced future Serial ATAA (SATA) support in the MSA series of controllers as part of an SMB  product push in March: see= http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2004/040322a.html and 7 http://www.internetnews.com/storage/article.php/3329261   F So for those situations where SATA is a better fit, HP will have SATA:= "HP is very much committed to SATA technology. [In March], we F announced future SATA support for our Modular Smart Array (MSA) familyC -- a line of products targeted at the SMB market. This announcement F was part of HP's broader Smart Office Initiative. Regards, Alan Dunto,# HP Storage Public Relations." (from S http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid5_gci958155,00.html  )   D The EVA3000, even with its Fibre Channel drives, has also been quiteE popular in the SMB space, from what I hear. (In Richie Lary's talk in B Munich, he said the #1 pain point for folks today is managing diskC space, and the EVA's virtualization makes that task very easy.) And D the MSA1000 (a Fibre Channel array controller on the host side, withF SCSI on the device side) fits in nicely below that. What folks used toE do with OpenVMS clusters and multi-host parallel SCSI busses they can $ do with MSA1000s and EVA3000s today.  E > Now if HP had been pioneering removeable cheap commodity IDE drives - > for backup that would show some leadership.   F The role of Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) and Serial ATA (ATA) is still a+ matter of debate within the industry -- see S http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid5_gci970787,00.html B for example. "While vendors are launching new drives and refittingC high-end storage arrays to accommodate the low-cost Serial Advanced C Technology Attachment (SATA) technology, many in the industry doubt E that SATA will suffice in an enterprise data center." ... "Seagate is D hedging its bets in the data center with the launch of a 400 GB SATAE drive and a Fibre Attached Technology Adapted (FATA) drive that packs E up to one-half terabyte of capacity." ... "The FATA drive is based on > the same platform as ATA and Serial ATA drives, but features aE dual-ported 2 Gb/s Fibre Channel interface. Scott said the difference = in price between SATA and FATA drives is "tens of percents.""   C FATA is all about giving customers choice, and potentially saving a D lot of money. FATA drives couple the low-cost mechanics (due to highA volumes) of ATA drives with the reliability/availability of Fibre D Channel. That's a good potential combination for many in the OpenVMS marketplace.  X From http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid5_gci958155,00.html? "At 250 GB per drive, the FATA drive is based on the same basic A platform as ATA and Serial ATA drives, but features a dual-ported ? 2Gb/s Fibre Channel interface. "Our customers told us they were = willing to sacrifice performance, but they weren't willing to C sacrifice availability," says Kyle Fitze, director of marketing for C HP's online storage division. The EVA is already built around Fibre A Channel disk enclosures, so from HP's perspective, this is a much A cleaner solution than modifying the EVA enclosure to support ATA. D "There's lots of cost and complexity involved in going between FibreE Channel and SATA," says Fitze. "If you remove the cost and complexity B of the electronics, you can reduce the overall cost to customers."? Fitze predicts that HP will be able to offer FATA-based EVAs to E customers for less than a comparable ATA/SATA-based system. Customers F will be able to mix and match FATA drives with high-performance drivesC freely, without having to purchase a separate enclosure. The drives B themselves, Fitze says, will cost about half of what an enterprise2 Fibre Channel drives goes for on a cost/MB basis." ... B "Nancy Marrone-Hurley, senior analyst at Enterprise Storage Group,C says that price-wise, HP is probably erring on the side of caution. E "I've had assurances that pricing will be very much in line with SATA C drives," she says. Furthermore, because they are dual-ported, these E FATA drives are inherently more reliable, and have better performance  too."    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:09:40 +0000 (UTC) 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> , Subject: Re: HP World, OpenVMS Bootcamp, etc2 Message-ID: <ceedek$81m$1@hercules.btinternet.com>  J I'm begining to understand why you attract such a devoted fan club! PleaseH sit back and read what you've written once in a while. Go out; smell theL roses; get a cup of coffee; find a girl fall in love; have a beer; take in a
 movie. . .  
 Go to Munich!   8 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:410A799B.2629F92B@teksavvy.com... > Sue Skonetski wrote:
 > > At theI > > boot camp aproximately 200 of the engineers come down to the bootcamp  > > during the week. > I > OK, so this is a sensitive question. Sue, do paying attendees subsidize  the J > engineer's meals ? Would the registration costs go down significantly if the K > engineer's meals were to come off HP budgets instead ? Or are those costs  not  > very significant ? >  > 200 is a large number. > D > > dinner two nights, we provide internet access so that people can > > connect into work  > G > Is this done through HP facilities, or does the Hotel provide its own  internet > access backbone ?  > J > > of DECUS/Encompass nor do we wish it to be.  Encompass can offer you aI > > wide variety of topics the boot camp is focused on VMS for folks that C > > need very specific VMS information not available anywhere else.  > L > While I understand and do not disagree with your mission for the bootcamp,I > bear in mind that if DECUS (or whatever its name might be this week) no  longerH > has a viable VMS content that , alone, justifies going to their event, thenG > your event takes on a greater responsability since the "not available  anywhere. > else" takes on a much wider range of topics. > L > But you know Sue, if you have a max capacity of 200, and you do fill those 200 H > seats at the $1295 rate, then lowering the rate won't bring additional people/ > since you are limited to that number anyways.  > 5 > Has holding 2 such events per year been ruled out ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:59:07 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com# Subject: Re: Mount disk at startup? Q Message-ID: <OFB78CB0A4.9F6E4AE8-ON85256EE1.0062ACE3-85256EE1.0062D1ED@metso.com>   ) $mount/noassist/system dka100 <vol-label>    Please read help mount  ? "Mike E." <m_esso@hotmail.com> wrote on 07/30/2004 01:30:14 PM:   	 > Hi all,  > . > I'm a bit of a VMS noob, so bear with me. :) > J > I'm trying to get a secondary disk to mount at startup using OpenVMS/VAX > v7.1H > I figured that it would just be a simple entry in systarup_vms.com; at the ) > end of the script (before EXIT) I have:  >  > $mount dka100 <vol-label>  > K > When I watch the startup sequence the command gets executed and says that J > this particular volume has successfully been mounted.  Yet, once I loginI > it's only "online" and that same command has to be run again to have it 
 > mounted. > 
 > What gives?  >  >  > 	 > Thanks! 	 > Mike E.  >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 30 JUL 2004 21:26:22 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> # Subject: Re: Mount disk at startup? 2 Message-ID: <30JUL04.21262232@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  ? In a previous article, "Mike E." <m_esso@@@@hotmail.com> wrote: 	 > Hi all,  >   . > I'm a bit of a VMS noob, so bear with me. :) >   J > I'm trying to get a secondary disk to mount at startup using OpenVMS/VAX > v7.1L > I figured that it would just be a simple entry in systarup_vms.com; at the) > end of the script (before EXIT) I have:  >    > $mount dka100 <vol-label>  >   K > When I watch the startup sequence the command gets executed and says that J > this particular volume has successfully been mounted.  Yet, once I loginI > it's only "online" and that same command has to be run again to have it 
 > mounted. >   
 > What gives?   F That command mounts the disk for use only by the mounting process.  In% this case that's the startup process.   @ Add a  /system  to your command to mount it for system-wide use.   Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:55:29 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>. Subject: Re: Multinet on VMS 5.5 please HELP !* Message-ID: <410B0A21.AFF81CE@comcast.net>   Zibri wrote: >  > Help ! > I have a problem. B > I obtained the hobbyist license and also a license for multinet. > A > Now I want to install multinet on my emulated vax with vms 5.5.  > M > The problem is that MULTINET distribution has a size of  200 MB and I don't < > know how to transfer it to my VMS system for installation. > : > Transferring the files with kermit would take 24 hours ! > N > Isn't there a way to transfer the files to a TAP or DSK image that simh/vms5
 > will read ?  > L > I heard of a guy who trasferred the files to an iso 9660 cd image and thenH > mount on vms... but unfortunately CDROM support has been introduced in" > openvms 6.0 and not in 5.5 :(((( >  > Please help !   E Well, actually, according to the hobbyist's e-mail from Hunter, there E are three MNET distro.'s: VAX, Alpha and combined. At V5.5 (???!!!) , H you really only need the VAX version. That's about only about 55.5MB for8 the .ZIP archive. You have UNZIP on that machine, right?  > ...and if I'm not mistaken, I think it needs V5.5-2 or better.  D I think I can scrounge up the -2 upgrade, but it also is a ponderous6 size - unless someone could send you a copy of a CD-R.   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:01:58 -0400 3 From: Undisclosed <nomail@dontbeaweaselspammer.com>   Subject: Re: Need Help with SNMP0 Message-ID: <UOidnVu3LqKCEJfcRVn-pA@comcast.com>   jlsue wrote:  1 > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:49:52 -0400, Undisclosed * > <nomail@dontbeaweaselspammer.com> wrote: >  >  > I >>SNMPv3 is fine, from what I hear, but not widely implimented. It's got  % >>adequate cryptographic protections.  >>K >>SNMPv1 is horribly horribly broken from a security standpoint.. once you  K >>know the "public string" used as the identifier for the device, you have  # >>full access to the SNMP resource.  >> >  > M > I thought it was even worse than that.  I thought that the community string J > was sent in clear text in the network packet, and any sniffer could pull > that out.  > 	 > --- jls   & you're right, it is sent in cleartext.  6 there is no communication encryption in SNMPv1 at all.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:15:13 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>B Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1 - conneting to internet via ADSL+ Message-ID: <410B00B1.C1CE3C20@comcast.net>    Thierry Dussuet wrote: > D > On 2004-07-30, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: > > Thierry Dussuet wrote: > > > H > > > On 2004-07-27, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > Thierry Dussuet wrote:	 > > > > > 3 > > > > > On 2004-07-26, Lars <lars@post.cz> wrote:  > > > > > >  > > > > > > Starlet731 wrote:  > > > > > > > Hello Paul, 
 > > > > > > > U > > > > > > > Thank you for the information. Do you also know how the set the OpenVMS U > > > > > > > system as gateway and how to set up the ADSL connection on it using the X > > > > > > > Thomson Speedtouch 510 ADSL modem instead of configuring on OpenVMS how to8 > > > > > > > reach the gateway that is on other system? > > > > > > S > > > > > > As you wrote in the beginning of the thread, there is no implementation T > > > > > > of PPOE on OVMS (as far as I know). You can set up the OVMS machine as aS > > > > > > gateway, but you'll need another machine to do the authorization, which + > > > > > > is not what you probably want.. 	 > > > > > X > > > > > AFAIK there is also no NAT solution for OpenVMS, so it wouldn't even work as a > > > > > gateway. > > > > P > > > > I haven't Googled for it yet, but I seem to recall a post here some timeF > > > > back about someone who had done NAT for VMS as freeware and/or > > > > open-source. > > > ) > > > Just looked for it and found it :-) 2 > > > There is a NAT Package for VAX and UCX < 5.0 > > > = > > > http://tinyurl.com/49hvj (the article with its context)  > > J > > Unfortunately, the .ZIP archive appears to be missing. Wonder if I had5 > > the good sense to download it when it was live...  >  > It's still there! P > "If you are the owner of this site, it is possible that you have an issue with6 > upper and lower case characters in your file names." > So the file seems to be at: = > http://www.galifrey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/natucx_v0p561d.zip  > (yibbiie!)   I have it now! Thanx!    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:39:38 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>& Subject: Re: Preventing fragmentation.+ Message-ID: <410B066A.CC063EE4@comcast.net>    Jim Strehlow wrote:  > 0 > rf_vms@earthlink.net (RF) wrote in message ...G > > and I'm already doing that, but I'd like to find something that was # > > proactive rather than reactive.  > H > For decades I have been proactive to reserve contiguous disk space for: > the benefit of the company's RMS or database file needs. > , > Run DFU to notice the largest free extent:F > Largest free extent              :  19916984  blocks at LBN: 7211212 > E > $COPY /CONTIGUOUS /LOG /ALLOCATION= 18000000  NL:  OUTPUT_FILE_NAME  > F > It all depends upon the needs of users for available free disk spaceF > for each disk, and which disk is a candidate for extended data files& > or new database tablespace segments.B > It is best to run the DFU and COPY/CONTIGUOUS as soon after disk; > initialization (or after a backup "restore" to the disk.)  > B > When the available disk space falls below a certain threshold, IH > delete the reserved disk space file(s) and reserve a smaller amount of
 > disk space.   % There's another way to do that, also:    Reserve space:? $ COPY/CONTIGUOUS/LOG/ALLOCATION=18000000 NLA0: output_filespec  $ SET FILE/END output_filespec   Release some space: * $ EFB = F$FILE( "output_filespec", "EOF" )* $ EBK = EBK - 25000	! Release 25000 blocks8 $ EBK = EBK + 1		! Seems goofy, but take my word for it;% $			! or, try it yourself to see why. ( $ SET FILE/ATTR=EBK=&EBK output_filespec  $ SET FILE/TRUNC output_filespec  < Setting the end-of-file block makes truncation possible. SETC FILE/TRUNC[ATE] actually releases the allocation beyond the new EOF  block.  G A little extra coding, but it can save a bit of run-time as compared to F deallocating the entire pre-reserved area, and re-allocating a smallerE area. Obviously, larger pre-allocations will be more sensitive to the  time difference.  G One caveat: When you SET FILE/END, the "file" may contain garbage or it F may contain once-useful data. Be careful about "permissions" and other access control.    D.J.D.  > > Or, when it is time to build the crucial file that should beE > contiguous, I delete the reserved disk space file(s), build the new F > file, run DFU, and reserve as much space as I can for the next time. > ; > Jim, OpenVMS and Database Administrator, Alameda, CA, USA C > "The boss reminded us that we only have a week left to finish our , > project, so we ought to be half done now." > "You have not even started."+ > "Yeah, but I work better under pressure." * > "Actually you work only under pressure."F > "That way the work time is more miserable; but there is less of it."C >  variation of a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon by Bill Watterson, 1995    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:41:26 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>( Subject: Re: Qt ready for OpenVMS Alpha.+ Message-ID: <410B06D6.7E32945A@comcast.net>    Galen wrote: > + > So where can we download Qt-free for VMS?   E Like Galen, I was hoping someone had a pre-compiled binary available.    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:26:37 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: Running VMS on a simulated VAX?+ Message-ID: <410B035D.916AC1B9@comcast.net>    "Robert A.M. van Lopik" wrote: > A > "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message ' > news:4109B2F1.13E2D9C0@comcast.net... " > > "Robert A.M. van Lopik" wrote: > > > F > > > "Undisclosed" <nomail@dontbeaweaselspammer.com> wrote in message0 > > > news:j8Gdna90sbS1GJXcRVn-pQ@comcast.com... > > > > Dan Foster wrote:  > > > > F > > > > > In article <41085F49.90E0C9DA@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera( > > > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:	 > > > > > ) > > > > >>OVMS CDs are ODS, not ISO-9660. 	 > > > > > 	 > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, yes, right you are. A slip of the mind / tongue.	 > > > > > J > > > > > At least one PC-based CD burning software strenously objected to	 > burning K > > > > > an ODS-2 based image to CD, so had to use cdrecord under Linux to  > burnN > > > > > my CD. Epitome of silliness, but that were the machinations required > to) > > > > > get the VMS machines installed. 	 > > > > >  > > > > > -Dan > > > > H > > > > I wonder if the exact CD copy style software under Windows could > handle
 > > > ODS. > > > > I > > > > not much point in trying that when you can just use cdrecord or a  > > > > frontend, though. $ > > > Well, you do need an ISO-image > >  > > ...errrr, ODS image ...  > >  > > > of the ODS-VMS-CD. > > 
 > > D.J.D.J > No, I meant ISO-image (file) from the VMS distro disk, See simh_faq.txt: >  > .... > 4.2 How do I install VMS?  > C > To install VMS, you will need a distribution CD ROM.  Any version . > after VMS 5.5-2 should run on the simulator. > F > - Transcribe the distribution CD ROM to an ISO-format CD image file.9 >   (See question 2.5 for information on how to do this.) ! > - Set drive RQ1 to be a CD ROM. 8 > - Attach the CD ROM image file to simulated drive RQ1.  $ In this case, the SIMH FAQ is wrong.  G (Micro)VAX bootstraps may be perfectly willing to read the bootblock of  an ISO-9660 volume.   D However, OpenVMS's loaders only understand ODS-2 and later. The bootF attempt will fail if the volume is converted to ISO-9660. The RMS fileF attributes will likewise be lost rendering all of the non-binary files useless.  " ODS is the only acceptable format.  G I realize that's a bit pedantic. The term "ISO image" has, for right or F wrong, been genericized to loosely mean any track "ripped" from a data? CD-ROM, regardless of the actual filesystem format it contains.   B Still, some folks (like me) take some things (especially technicalC descriptions) quite literally. So, I try to be as accurate as I can - without getting too caught up in the details.    D.J.D.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 17:47:03 -05004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)? Subject: Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server 3 Message-ID: <u0g7+aFA6q5S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <40FF1A54.87D0FD35@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:, > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: >>  X >> In article <fxrLc.53099$iw3.22955@clgrps13>, Lee Mah <lytmah@telusplanet.net> writes: >> > [snip] @ >> >Is there a way to send a command with parameters from VMS to >> >the Unix machine to page?  >>  	 >> [snip]  >>  R >> If you have an alphanumeric page that works by email (which is what we've got),P >> you can send to pagernumber@airtouch.net (or whatever); of course you're then/ >> stuck with email latency, which can be high.  > G > Be advised that this is also subject to spam attacks, as we found out I > recently during a critical systems outage (unable to send notifications C > to pagers via e-mail due to a spam attack in progress against our  > service provider). >  > Other approaches include:  > G > For Cingular Wireless, WGET can be used to transmit all the necessary  > data in a URL via HTTP.  > I > For Arch Wireless, KERMIT can be used to emulate an HTTP POST operation * > (as would normally be done from a form). > G > These are the only two I currently know of. I am researching this for I > the company to find alternate notification methods as a backup to SMTP.  >  > D.J.D.  E If the text paging can be done via HTTP(S) then you could also easily F set up an application on the VMS box to use the cURL library to createE the POST and send it via a simple program.   I ported cURL to VMS and < used it to do credit card processing using just this type of? operation.  Check out http://curl.haxx.se/download.html for the % version that suits your architecture.   D I currently use cURL to check on a number of websites we run to makeE sure they are responding properly.  I also use it to parse the output E from the Uptimes Project page to see how my various systems are doing 
 worldwide.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:34:03 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org? Subject: Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server ) Message-ID: <04073018340159@antinode.org>   4 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)  G > If the text paging can be done via HTTP(S) then you could also easily H > set up an application on the VMS box to use the cURL library to createG > the POST and send it via a simple program.   I ported cURL to VMS and  > [...]   E    I hadn't tried it until now, but it appears that Wget 1.9.1 can do 	 this too: N            --post-data=STRING    use the POST method; send STRING as the data.L            --post-file=FILE      use the POST method; send contents of FILE.  E    A quick test suggests that it does something right.  Fault-finders C are welcome to begin at "http://www.antinode.org/dec/sw/wget.html".   +    How many ways _are_ there to skin a cat?   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:09:03 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>? Subject: Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server + Message-ID: <410AFF3F.63EDF4AA@comcast.net>    Marty Kuhrt wrote: > b > In article <40FF1A54.87D0FD35@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:. > > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > >>Z > >> In article <fxrLc.53099$iw3.22955@clgrps13>, Lee Mah <lytmah@telusplanet.net> writes:
 > >> > [snip] B > >> >Is there a way to send a command with parameters from VMS to > >> >the Unix machine to page?  > >> > >> [snip]  > >>T > >> If you have an alphanumeric page that works by email (which is what we've got),R > >> you can send to pagernumber@airtouch.net (or whatever); of course you're then1 > >> stuck with email latency, which can be high.  > > I > > Be advised that this is also subject to spam attacks, as we found out K > > recently during a critical systems outage (unable to send notifications E > > to pagers via e-mail due to a spam attack in progress against our  > > service provider). > >  > > Other approaches include:  > > I > > For Cingular Wireless, WGET can be used to transmit all the necessary  > > data in a URL via HTTP.  > > K > > For Arch Wireless, KERMIT can be used to emulate an HTTP POST operation , > > (as would normally be done from a form). > > I > > These are the only two I currently know of. I am researching this for K > > the company to find alternate notification methods as a backup to SMTP.  > > 
 > > D.J.D. > G > If the text paging can be done via HTTP(S) then you could also easily H > set up an application on the VMS box to use the cURL library to create- > the POST and send it via a simple program.    D The trick, however, is to deduce the method and how to emulate it inB automation. The service providers sometimes go out of their way toH obfuscate as a barrier to illicite abuse of their subscribers (I guess - not much reason, otherwise).   >  I ported cURL to VMS and > > used it to do credit card processing using just this type ofA > operation.  Check out http://curl.haxx.se/download.html for the ' > version that suits your architecture.    Got 'em all this eve.   F > I currently use cURL to check on a number of websites we run to makeG > sure they are responding properly.  I also use it to parse the output G > from the Uptimes Project page to see how my various systems are doing  > worldwide.  / I'll look into this in my "copious spare time".    D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:11:58 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>? Subject: Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server + Message-ID: <410AFFEE.4FA5F3F1@comcast.net>    sms@antinode.org wrote:  > 6 > From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) > I > > If the text paging can be done via HTTP(S) then you could also easily J > > set up an application on the VMS box to use the cURL library to createI > > the POST and send it via a simple program.   I ported cURL to VMS and 	 > > [...]  > G >    I hadn't tried it until now, but it appears that Wget 1.9.1 can do  > this too: P >            --post-data=STRING    use the POST method; send STRING as the data.N >            --post-file=FILE      use the POST method; send contents of FILE. > G >    A quick test suggests that it does something right.  Fault-finders E > are welcome to begin at "http://www.antinode.org/dec/sw/wget.html".   G I believe that's where I got the version I'm using. I'll see if it will C work for Arch using the --post-data method. I assume that accepts a  quoted string?   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:43:51 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org? Subject: Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server ) Message-ID: <04073021435161@antinode.org>   2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>   > >    [...] Wget 1.9.1 [...] R > >            --post-data=STRING    use the POST method; send STRING as the data.P > >            --post-file=FILE      use the POST method; send contents of FILE. > > 8 > >    [...] "http://www.antinode.org/dec/sw/wget.html".  5 > I believe that's where I got the version I'm using.       Where else?   > I'll see if it will E > work for Arch using the --post-data method. I assume that accepts a  > quoted string?  B    As long as the C code doesn't actually see the quotation marks.  G    I'm now at VMS V7.3-1 with "VMS731_ACRTL V3.0", so I've decided that D "SET PROCESS /PARSE_STYLE = EXTENDED" is a wonderful thing.  If WgetD 1.9.1a senses this, it enables DECC$ARGV_PARSE_STYLE, which obviates5 quoting the case-sensitive parts of the command line.   F    For spaces, it seems that you can quote ("--post-data=var=This is aE test.") or pre-URL-ize the data (--post-data=var=This+is+a+test.).  I G think I'll wait for some other poor sucker to figure out the fine print  for --post-file=FILE.   C    Web-accessible documentation for Wget 1.9 seems to be sparse, at C best, but I'm sure that the code is self-documenting, and there are > always the (UNIX-oriented) info pages in the [.DOC] directory.  G    In any case, I got it to work on the message-to-webmaster form on my C site, so what could go wrong?  (I suggest that other folks use some A other form for testing, as I keep good records of who uses mine.)   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:22:57 -0500 (CDT)  From: sms@antinode.org? Subject: Re: Sending page messages from VMS using a Unix server ) Message-ID: <04073100225721@antinode.org>    > >    [...] Wget 1.9.1 [...] P > >            --post-file=FILE      use the POST method; send contents of FILE.  
 > [...]  II > think I'll wait for some other poor sucker to figure out the fine print  > for --post-file=FILE.   G    Oh, I just couldn't resist.  It seems to work, but it's crucial that F the FILE be Record format: Stream_LF, as the code opens the file "rb",G and expects to get the file's byte count from "fseek (fp, 0, SEEK_END); F size = ftell (fp);", and that appears to be doomed with Record format:G Variable length.  The consequences aren't pretty, as it doesn't realizeVF how hopeless it is, so you get a lot of retries before it surrenders. F (I _assume_ that it surrenders _eventually_, but I killed it manually,  so I can't say with confidence.)  H    I'll put some additional investigation of this onto my to-do list for 1.9.1b.  (Hold your breath.)  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgO    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 11:38:48 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0407301038.5462c04e@posting.google.com>S   "Bochnik, William J" <William Bochnik@acml.com> wrote in message news:<2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D504ADA58E@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>... > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Charlie Hammond [mailto:hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com] ( > >Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 4:23 PM > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ > >Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systemsn > >t	 > >(snip)o > >cJ > >And, of course, the Touch Screen systems have *NO* audit train to allow >  yJ > >a re-count.  Even the proposal for attaching printers will only record E > >the machine count, not the voter's intent, as IS recorded by paper  >  balots.  	 > >{sigh}m > G > what if the system printed a "reciept" of what the person entered in,o > andeH > the voter was responsible for verifying the printout before depositing > it/ > in a slot?  Wouldnt this verify their intent?m > E Better no ! Brazilian Gov was thinking about it using a small printertA but It could be used for corruption purposes ! In some L.AmericanmB contries the votes are bought ! It would be a "formal way" to show@ if  he/she voted in a specific candidate to receive the money !    []s   Fabio C.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:43:06 GMT)) From: Andrew Walters <awxrt001@yahoo.com>o( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems@ Message-ID: <_EwOc.101931$uP4.100449@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>   Dave Baxter wrote:G > Does anyone know anything about these systems, particularly about thetH > recent report (last couple of days) about voting information lost when> > they experienced a system crash (I think it was in Florida).4 >      Does anyone know what systems they are using?E > and/or    Does anyone know how the OS/hardware decisions were made?e >  > Dave.k  F If you are talking about Diebold, they're using Windows and an Access F database with no access protection. The data is loaded onto a Compact @ Flash drive so it can be taken by the returning officer back to I vote-smersh-central where, presumably, it is dropped into a bin and some lC   guy puts in a predetermined number based on who paid the most to   Diebold to buy the precinct.  G California has slapped Diebold on the wrists for updating the software pI without telling the state (so it's uncertified and the state has no idea pG what it now does) but unaccountably stopped short of hauling the lying e hounds off to the slammer.  F Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. Australia solved the security and C verifiability problem for A$250,000 and each machine costs at most eG A$1,000 to make. Diebold have so far raked in tens of (possibly over a  I hundred) million for their systems which are over elaborate in the wrong  H areas and under secure in the right ones. Talk about leaving the job to  rank amateurs.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 12:19:49 -07000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter)( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems< Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0407301119.3c5db9c@posting.google.com>  : It is obvious to any sane person that having a non-biased,D non-sentient computer add up the votes is more objective than havingA it done by carbon-based ape-descendents who may or may not have aSB vested interest in the outcome (e.g. the female Secretary of StateB from Florida, (Kathleen ?) who coincidentally ended as a member ofD Gdubya's administration).    You tell me, would you rather have your= pay (and the pay of the other 10,000 people who work for yourHE company), calculated by a person sitting in a cubicle with a stack of ? paper pads and pencils, particularly if that person might be onaE drugs/alchohol, have a terminal illness or a recently deceased frienda or family member.SE     It is fairly obvious to me that most people would rather leave itnC to a computer, and in almost every other walk of life are perfectly1D happy to, even when the computer in question has the power to have aC much more direct detrimental effect on the individual's life than a  voting machine.e  @     It seems to me that the political parties also have a vested= interest in maintaining clearly designated areas of doubt andtD uncertainty.   (again, take Florida as an example), if the result ofA the vote is "absolute" then how can you dispute the fact that youo don't like the result.A      The primary argument I hear put forward against computerizedeB voting systems is "How can you do a re-count??"    This is clearlyD based on the assumption that the system is inherently unreliable andF therefore we must be able to verify it by use of an even less reliableD method, which then reopens the door to the "clearly designated areas/ of doubt and uncertainty".    Square One again.nE      The real question is not whether Computerized Voting systems are ? reliable, it is more like,  are they more reliable than people?o  D      The poster before me mentioned the obvious solution.   Create aE paper trail.    Have the system generate a hard copy receipt, in facteE create two.   The receipt is checked by the voter, and he retains onecF copy.   The other copy is placed in a regular ballot box, for use onlyC in the event of a recount.   This second copy could have the votingpB information stored in a barcode perhaps so that a recount could beE carried out by an independent system just scanning these barcodes andi generating a new total.d  F      It is clear that a little thought and consideration could produceB a secure, reliable and efficient system (probably not on windows),E (try OpenVMS)with as many safeguards and backups to meet any level ofi (b)anality.o         Don't let the Ludites win!!   Dave. Baxter   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 15:48:10 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>a( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems. Message-ID: <mddvfg5jmyt.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  2 dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) writes:  G > Does anyone know anything about these systems, particularly about thecH > recent report (last couple of days) about voting information lost when> > they experienced a system crash (I think it was in Florida).4 >      Does anyone know what systems they are using?E > and/or    Does anyone know how the OS/hardware decisions were made?e  M There has been a great deal of discussion of these machines, and the problems O which continue to plague them (including the manufacturers' insistence that thegM software is a trade secret and cannot be examined by government auditors!) oncM the RISKS mailing list (also digested in comp.risks).  I'd suggest looking at  that material.   -- wL Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:17:43 +0100y& From: Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk>( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems1 Message-ID: <300720042017438133%nospam@yrl.co.uk>I  G In article <_EwOc.101931$uP4.100449@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>, Andrews# Walters <awxrt001@yahoo.com> wrote:y > H > Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. Australia solved the security and E > verifiability problem for A$250,000 and each machine costs at most r > A$1,000 to make. 4 url?8 > Diebold have so far raked in tens of (possibly over a K > hundred) million for their systems which are over elaborate in the wrong @J > areas and under secure in the right ones. Talk about leaving the job to  > rank amateurs.B If you feel like a little number theory befrore dinner, google for "chaum voting".o  4 It would seem that current systems have a way to go.   -- ;C I thought I would be the last on earth to mangle my e-mail address.@ fsnospam$elliott$$   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:27:16 GMT:& From: jlsue <jefflsxxxz@sbcglobal.net>( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems8 Message-ID: <f68lg052dpp3pb7n6vi775b9epv3q28qam@4ax.com>  8 On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:33:15 -0400, "Bochnik, William J"! <William_Bochnik@acml.com> wrote:r     >oF >what if the system printed a "reciept" of what the person entered in, >andG >the voter was responsible for verifying the printout before depositing  >itl. >in a slot?  Wouldnt this verify their intent? >   G This would only be verifiable if another vendor developed a system thatoK would read those slips and perform another count as a check of the originale count.  G Discrepancies above some % would have to require recounts and/or manualo counts.a   --- jlsv0 The preceding message was personal opinion only.6 I do not speak in any authorized capacity for anyone,  and certainly not my employer.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:40:02 +0100t& From: Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk>( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems1 Message-ID: <300720042040028437%nospam@yrl.co.uk>t  A In article <a3c44af1.0407301119.3c5db9c@posting.google.com>, Dave , Baxter <dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com> wrote:   <snaip> G >      The real question is not whether Computerized Voting systems are0A > reliable, it is more like,  are they more reliable than people?d  > Nope. It is "can they be seen to be more reliable than people"  & It ain't enough that "justice be done"  F >      The poster before me mentioned the obvious solution.   Create aG > paper trail.    Have the system generate a hard copy receipt, in factsG > create two.   The receipt is checked by the voter, and he retains one6H > copy.   The other copy is placed in a regular ballot box, for use onlyE > in the event of a recount.   This second copy could have the voting/D > information stored in a barcode perhaps so that a recount could beG > carried out by an independent system just scanning these barcodes andt > generating a new total.1  @ Having the voter retain a human readable receipt fails the 'vote
 buying' test.   : Have a look at Chaum's paper, and the ones that follow it. > H >      It is clear that a little thought and consideration could produceD > a secure, reliable and efficient system (probably not on windows),G > (try OpenVMS)with as many safeguards and backups to meet any level of 
 > (b)anality.  > " >      Don't let the Ludites win!!A I'm with you  on that. But it may take a lot more than a "little"- thought.F When you are designing systems like this, the boundary is *not* at the surface of the computers.t   -- tC I thought I would be the last on earth to mangle my e-mail address.a fsnospam$elliott$$   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:48:42 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>i( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems, Message-ID: <410AA619.A9B305DE@teksavvy.com>   Andrew Walters wrote:pG > Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. Australia solved the security and D > verifiability problem for A$250,000 and each machine costs at mostH > A$1,000 to make. Diebold have so far raked in tens of (possibly over aJ > hundred) million for their systems which are over elaborate in the wrong, > areas and under secure in the right ones.   E While generally, I would agree with that statement, bear in mind that M elections in the USA are far more complex than elsewhere because they combineo( multiple elections into a single ballot.  L One wonders if it wouldn't be simpler to run separate elections in parralel.L (one voting booth per election). This way, each booth could use much simpler; technology and the questions/ballots would be far simpler. -  G Combining all votes into one ballot is also dangerous in the sense thatsK statistitians can then make statistics on relationship between viting for ag: certain candidate and voting for/against some proposition.  K If ballots were totally independant, they could never do that, so your voten would be far more anonymous.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:57:46 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>2( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems, Message-ID: <410AA839.8D3DD6B4@teksavvy.com>   Dave Baxter wrote:F > non-sentient computer add up the votes is more objective than havingC > it done by carbon-based ape-descendents who may or may not have a ! > vested interest in the outcome    K In canada, candidates have the right to have a volunteer witness first handOM the vote counting in each polling station. And because the election is runnedaB by a neutral central organisation, any accusation of wrongdoing is8 investigated automatically by that neutral organisation.  N It seems that in the USA, elections are local thing runned by local people whoK are hired by those who have been elected locally (hence an automatic bias).h  N The USA should start by having one central, neutral organisation that runs theL elections with a nationwide standard on technology and procedures and rules.  C >      The primary argument I hear put forward against computerized-D > voting systems is "How can you do a re-count??"    This is clearlyF > based on the assumption that the system is inherently unreliable andH > therefore we must be able to verify it by use of an even less reliable  M This is from someone who trusts computers. Many people don't trust computers.r: And if you've ever used Windows, you'd distrust computers.  K And consider that exsiting laws, at least in canada, dictate that a recount>I must be performed automatically if the difference between the winning and I second candidate is less than a certain number, and that a recount can be H performed on demand if one candidate feels he has been cheated of votes.  N So, in order to do away with the "recounts", one would have to change electionG laws, and make every vote absolute, and the result absolute even if the-2 majority is only by one vote without any recourse.  N Personally, I would be willing to live with this *IF* the election were glitchN free, and garanteed glitch-free  and that there were a garantee that all votes( had hbeen counted and counted only once.  ; Revolutions have occured due to wrong , untrustable voting.0   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:54:22 GMT3) From: Andrew Walters <awxrt001@yahoo.com>n( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems? Message-ID: <OHxOc.101948$Th5.38471@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>t  I I'm not sure where the luddites have a foothold in this discussion. As I 7I said before, Australia has *solved* the e-vote problem. No contest! It's eG done and dusted and they're off down the beach to enjoy the surf! More o power to them!  H My gripe is that the US, bastion of Duhmocracy and technological hub of E the known universe, appears to be still struggling with nepotism and  I cronyism when it comes to implementing the one system that offers a fair  E chance for Democracy to work its special brand of magic. The reason?  I Because true democracy will wipe out, or reduce, the oppo's for neps and eI cronies. They're fighting it with every tool they have because it spells e1 the end of corruption at least on the vote level.   E Computers are perfect for voting systems and encryption technologies wG allowing the security of votes and the impossibility of tampering with TE them have been around since SHA1 was discovered and coupled with RSA..F Mathematics are immune to corruption - it's a pure science - and when I using very large primes even people who know how to fix the system can't s* because it's uncomputable. Problem solved.  I Diebold wouldn't allow public review of their voting code, a fundamental fC alarm-bell ringer if ever there was one! Australia made their code iF public for at least a year and errors were found by Uni Profs who had H the time and energy to devote to examining it. But they might as easily G be found by the whiz-kid next door. Give some prestige to finding them   and more people will look.  G The operating system used is completely irrelevant here; the code path "I must be secure and the database protected from tampering plus there must kD be a verifiable trail. The code must be crashproof (or very fast to G start up) so that, as has happened here, people aren't disenfranchised 0+ when the vote offices fail to open on time.c  E The hardware platform can be an old PC (an 8086 will do) provided it C uses the right software.  ' Let the binary returning officers roll!n     Dave Baxter wrote:< > It is obvious to any sane person that having a non-biased,F > non-sentient computer add up the votes is more objective than havingC > it done by carbon-based ape-descendents who may or may not have aeD > vested interest in the outcome (e.g. the female Secretary of StateD > from Florida, (Kathleen ?) who coincidentally ended as a member ofF > Gdubya's administration).    You tell me, would you rather have your? > pay (and the pay of the other 10,000 people who work for yourhG > company), calculated by a person sitting in a cubicle with a stack ofhA > paper pads and pencils, particularly if that person might be onlG > drugs/alchohol, have a terminal illness or a recently deceased friend  > or family member.iG >     It is fairly obvious to me that most people would rather leave itbE > to a computer, and in almost every other walk of life are perfectly F > happy to, even when the computer in question has the power to have aE > much more direct detrimental effect on the individual's life than aU > voting machine.0 > B >     It seems to me that the political parties also have a vested? > interest in maintaining clearly designated areas of doubt and F > uncertainty.   (again, take Florida as an example), if the result ofC > the vote is "absolute" then how can you dispute the fact that youI > don't like the result.C >      The primary argument I hear put forward against computerizedlD > voting systems is "How can you do a re-count??"    This is clearlyF > based on the assumption that the system is inherently unreliable andH > therefore we must be able to verify it by use of an even less reliableF > method, which then reopens the door to the "clearly designated areas1 > of doubt and uncertainty".    Square One again.dG >      The real question is not whether Computerized Voting systems areaA > reliable, it is more like,  are they more reliable than people?s > F >      The poster before me mentioned the obvious solution.   Create aG > paper trail.    Have the system generate a hard copy receipt, in factiG > create two.   The receipt is checked by the voter, and he retains oneaH > copy.   The other copy is placed in a regular ballot box, for use onlyE > in the event of a recount.   This second copy could have the votingkD > information stored in a barcode perhaps so that a recount could beG > carried out by an independent system just scanning these barcodes and  > generating a new total.  > H >      It is clear that a little thought and consideration could produceD > a secure, reliable and efficient system (probably not on windows),G > (try OpenVMS)with as many safeguards and backups to meet any level of:
 > (b)anality.r > " >      Don't let the Ludites win!! >  > Dave. Baxter   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:24:54 GMTtL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems6 Message-ID: <00A359C1.107A0381@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  [ In article <410A739B.C8554F6@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:c >Bob Koehler wrote::H >>    The vendor (ESS) added an electronic, battery-backup "paper trail"H >>    that could be reprocesed to reproduce the counts.  In testing this, >>    is sometimes unreadable after a crash. >B2 >Haven't any of these guys heard of flash memory ? >kI >While modern flash memory cards seem to act more like RAM than flash, ittO >should still be possible to have the behaviour of the older flash memory whererR >you can't really erase anything (unless you reformat the chip (erase everything). >eK >A machine could have dual flash memories which would be read by 2 separatea, >counting machines to authenticate the vote. >   N The problem here is that it gives no stage where the voter gets to verify thatJ what gets recorded into memory is what the voter wanted it to be.  A paperL ballot leaves a physical object which is verified by the voter, is not very M much subject to remote hacking, and can be independently verified later - so n recounts are meaningful.  I (Of course, there's a long history of paper ballot abuse too - pre-filled H ballots stuffed in ballot boxes, etc - but you pretty much have to do itL retail, precinct-by-precinct.  Closed-source, no-paper-trail voting machinesC give the opportunity for wholesale vote fraud, whether because the  O manufacturer as policy inserted trapdoors (which is what the people who noticedVN the Diebold exec talking about his commitment to deliver his state's electoralN votes to one candidate were worried about), or accidentally inserted trapdoorsK (perhaps because staff were corrupt, playful, or just incompetent), or had hL their code hacked by outsiders before the machines were deployed, or, in theI ill-advised idea of COTS-based machines which report vote totals over theo# Internet, hacked by anybody handy.)D   > I >Because our votes are simple (vote for one person only), they count them  >manually and this works well. >XG >In the USA, because votes include multiple votes (president, senators,6L >governors, attorneys, various resolutions etc), it isn't so simple to count
 >the ballots.i  M San Mateo County, where I vote, uses a scheme where you use a thick black peneN to draw a line indicating your vote.  This is quite legible - though obviouslyL not good enough for blind voters - and machine countable; the ballot is in aB single-column format, and I've never found the layout confusing.    L I've never understood why the disability lobby _objects_ to a paper trail.  K Maybe it doesn't do them any good, but it doesn't do them any harm either,  I and it does the accountability of the election process considerable good.u   -- Alano   -- tO ===============================================================================20  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056xM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   940250O ===============================================================================:   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:26:03 GMTcL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems6 Message-ID: <00A359C1.3969A265@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  n In article <f30679fb.0407301038.5462c04e@posting.google.com>, fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes: >"Bochnik, William J" <William Bochnik@acml.com> wrote in message news:<2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D504ADA58E@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>...s >> >-----Original Message-----? >> >From: Charlie Hammond [mailto:hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com] e) >> >Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 4:23 PM  >> >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comp, >> >Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems >> >
 >> >(snip) >> >K >> >And, of course, the Touch Screen systems have *NO* audit train to allowi >>  K >> >a re-count.  Even the proposal for attaching printers will only record aF >> >the machine count, not the voter's intent, as IS recorded by paper
 >>  balots.  .
 >> >{sigh} >>  H >> what if the system printed a "reciept" of what the person entered in, >> andI >> the voter was responsible for verifying the printout before depositingt >> it 0 >> in a slot?  Wouldnt this verify their intent? >> lF >Better no ! Brazilian Gov was thinking about it using a small printerB >but It could be used for corruption purposes ! In some L.AmericanC >contries the votes are bought ! It would be a "formal way" to show A >if  he/she voted in a specific candidate to receive the money ! e >o >[]ss  M In this scheme the voter doesn't get to take the receipt home; he checks that L it represents his intent and then deposits it in a "ballot box", which might be an electronic-count machine.t   -- Alane -- mO ===============================================================================e0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025rO ===============================================================================l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:25:31 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>l( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems, Message-ID: <410AAEB8.85123267@teksavvy.com>  . What would be wrong with the following system:  L Electronic voting  multiple booths in one polling station. One printer in an# enclosed, totally opaque enclosure.e  K Everytime someone confirms a vote, the vote is recorded electronically, andoJ one line is printed on the printer which includes only the polling station" number and the vote selection (s).  I Alternatively, you could have the printer spew out the information on bar-M codes, which would make then unreadable unless you have the special equipment5 to read a line.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:25:15 -07004* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems2 Message-ID: <irGdnYaNuJU2M5fcRVn-rQ@mpowercom.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:410AA839.8D3DD6B4@teksavvy.com...L > It seems that in the USA, elections are local thing runned by local people who F > are hired by those who have been elected locally (hence an automatic bias). >gL > The USA should start by having one central, neutral organisation that runs theeG > elections with a nationwide standard on technology and procedures andm rules. >aL The US Constitution specifies that individual states determine how electionsF are run.  States in turn usually allow counties/parishes to decide theE mechanics involved in vote tallying.  Despite individual anecdotes oftI problems (Florida being the most recent example, Chicago the most famous)iL overall the policy works quite well as it prevents a single, central (no wayC it would ever be neutral) organization from running (and jiggering)nK elections.  The last thing the country needs is a nationwide version of thegJ famed Chicago voting system, where even the dead are allowed to vote...andI vote as many times as necessary to ensure the right (err, make that left)r candidate is elected.i  J I happen to live in a state (Nevada) where elections are often very close,I city/county races by as few as 2-3 votes out of 5K+, statewide senatorialsH races by no more than 200 votes out of 400K+.  The ability to recount isJ essential, so I'm not enamored of the Diebold system.  The local registrarH ran a test of a Diebold touchscreen in a few precincts for a low turnoutE primary, and it was easy enough to use, but the county so far has notL@ adopted it.  I assume that has to do with all the bad publicity.   Jack Peacock   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:39:05 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems6 Message-ID: <00A359C3.0C018B65@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  \ In article <410AAEB8.85123267@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:/ >What would be wrong with the following system:  >sM >Electronic voting  multiple booths in one polling station. One printer in ans$ >enclosed, totally opaque enclosure. >eL >Everytime someone confirms a vote, the vote is recorded electronically, andK >one line is printed on the printer which includes only the polling stationo# >number and the vote selection (s).t > J >Alternatively, you could have the printer spew out the information on barN >codes, which would make then unreadable unless you have the special equipment >to read a line.  K Voter has to be able to see that what gets submitted into the count is whatEH the voter voted for, in some way that doesn't involve trusting that the " voting machine isn't lying to you.   -- Alan    -- tO ===============================================================================l0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056nM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   940251O ===============================================================================d   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 16:02:46 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems3 Message-ID: <ImG188Katng8@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  o In article <a3c44af1.0407301119.3c5db9c@posting.google.com>, dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter) writes:A  C >      The primary argument I hear put forward against computerizedn1 > voting systems is "How can you do a re-count??"a  C    And the answer is "the same way we did it with mechanical votingj&    machines", re-read the counts.  8-(  F    Somehow nobody ever caught onto this problem with mechanical votingA    machines, but everybody is afraid of it with electronic voting.B    machines.  We know after all, that they are computer based, and    they run Windows.  ?    A sad state of our society after the influence of Microsoft.dG    Mechanical machines are viewed as reliable, electronic machines are e    not.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 16:05:57 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems3 Message-ID: <+lpdETAggGMf@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  \ In article <410AA839.8D3DD6B4@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > P > The USA should start by having one central, neutral organisation that runs theN > elections with a nationwide standard on technology and procedures and rules.  E    Unfortunately the politicians would have to both establish such antE    organization and set the rules.  We all know how well they've doned;    with such concepts as bi-partisan and national interest.o   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 16:08:32 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems3 Message-ID: <jW+FiHHj2uA1@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  k In article <OHxOc.101948$Th5.38471@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>, Andrew Walters <awxrt001@yahoo.com> writes:w  9 > The operating system used is completely irrelevant heres   > The code must be crashproofe  
    x == ~x   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 16:09:03 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)S( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems3 Message-ID: <7Hi41vmbZYPx@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  \ In article <410AAEB8.85123267@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:0 > What would be wrong with the following system: > N > Electronic voting  multiple booths in one polling station. One printer in an% > enclosed, totally opaque enclosure.]  #    You've never seen a printer jam?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:57:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ( Subject: Re: Touch Screen Voting systems, Message-ID: <410B26B1.64165B33@teksavvy.com>  < Just as a side note. A friend of mine recently passed away.   J She was proud that in all her life she had never missed the opportunity toM cast her vote. And she did so from her bed in the hospital. (and yes, to makeeJ this on topic, she had been involved with VMS since the very early 1980s).  I The election office in which the hopsital is located sends a team to eacheT hospital in that riding. They then collect votes from all patients who wish to vote.  M They are given what is essentially a blank ballot, and the officer then tellsnI the ptient who the candidates are in his/her riding, and the patient then L manually writes for whom she intends to vote. She seals the envelope, and onH the envelope writes her name, riding where she resides, and signs a form= stating that she will not vote on election day at her riding.   L The envelopes are sent to election canada in Ottawa (capital) where they areN then sent back to each riding for counting on election day. (and I belive thatL in some ridings, when they receive the envelopes, they strike the names fromL the elction lists to ensure the patient can't get to the polling ofifice and vote twice).  L Very low tech. But my friend was extremely proud and happy of her ability to vote from her bed in hospital.  K So even with electronic voting, you'd still need *some* manual counting forA2 the other types of votes (by mail, hopsital etc).   L Note that when you vote on a paper ballot, you have no way to know that yourJ ballot was read properly and would never know if the elction officer woudl7 have decide you had a void ballot (improperly filled).    I So in a way, if you can't verify how a paper ballot is to be counted, why F should you be able to verify that an electronic ballot would be "read"
 properly ?  H Seems to me that having some confirmation of your voting intentions on aJ screen is far more advanced since you know that you are submitting a valid* vote that will not erroneously be voided .  J What is left however are potential for lost votes due to software/hardware0 glitches. For this, redundancy should be put in.  M If a polling office has 10 polling stations, then each vote should be counted M twice: once at the actual machine, and a transaction sent to a central server4J at that polling office. Then, at night, they would compare the counts fromH individual machines with those of the central server to ensure accuracy.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:56:02 +0000 (UTC)y6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)3 Subject: Re: [Hobbyist] Please fix Webserverproblemh1 Message-ID: <newscache$j1fo1i$xtx1$1@news.sil.at>o  \ In article <410A70CA.CAA6886B@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:! >Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:eI >> Please fix it ASAP (or my licenses terminate during my 2 week vacationn1 >> and I then can't access my home any longer ;-)h >a >$SET TIME="-14 00:00:00"  >lM >You'll have bad time stamps everywhere, but you can still access the system.t > I >Generally, I have found The Montagar people (David L Cathay) to be quitedN >responsive to issues with regards to renewalls. So my guess is that you won't  >have to use a SET TIME command.  ' Webserver is working now. Thanks folks.i If only I'd get the mail now...u   -- i Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERa% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:35:44 GMT ) From: Andrew Walters <awxrt001@yahoo.com>o; Subject: Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run? ? Message-ID: <4ywOc.101925$vo4.84794@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>t   Nic Clews wrote: > ... a native BBC model B ....   C Ahhh, memories, sweet memories. Do you have any ROMs for it - like - WordWise and so forth?   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 15:51:08 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>D; Subject: Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?b. Message-ID: <mddr7qtjmtv.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  % Mac OS X.3.4 ("Panther") and Tops-20.s -- oL Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Jul 2004 15:56:33 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a; Subject: Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?g3 Message-ID: <4VAvPQBWVznO@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  f In article <5YydnV8c5dMmGJfcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>, Undisclosed <nomail@dontbeaweaselspammer.com> writes:   > what's Pro OS?  C    Similar to RSX-11, with a menu.  Runs on DEC Pro-350 and Pro-380h/    personal computers, which were PDP-11 based.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:05:27 +0100m5 From: "Robert A.M. van Lopik" <lopik@mail.telepac.pt>e; Subject: Re: [Somewhat OT] What your non-OVMS machines run?t* Message-ID: <2mvs7mFqmgngU1@uni-berlin.de>  H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:4VAvPQBWVznO@eisner.encompasserve.org... > > In article <5YydnV8c5dMmGJfcRVn-jQ@comcast.com>, Undisclosed) <nomail@dontbeaweaselspammer.com> writes:w >n > > what's Pro OS? > E >    Similar to RSX-11, with a menu.  Runs on DEC Pro-350 and Pro-380 1 >    personal computers, which were PDP-11 based.  >bJ I seem to remember the name as P/OS. What is the use of running P/OS when,I at that time, everybody scrambled to get MCR back on his Professional :-)    rvle   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.420 ************************