1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 08 May 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 255       Contents:? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? RE: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... # Re: CXX installation failure on VAX  DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE  Disaster Recovery  Re: Disaster Recovery  Re: EVE customizations Re: EVE customizations Re: EVE customizationsL Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be   OpenVMS< Re: looking for suggestions for new $GETDVI item codes . . .< Re: looking for suggestions for new $GETDVI item codes . . .< Re: looking for suggestions for new $GETDVI item codes . . . more DFO questions) Re: Normal operating temerpature for ES40 ) Re: Normal operating temerpature for ES40 ! Re: Oracle statement of direction  Re: pine or related on VMS Re: RRD46 tray won't stay in SHO DEV suggestion
 SHOW ROUTE Re: SHOW ROUTE  Re: Trip down [core] memory lane  Re: Trip down [core] memory lane  Re: Trip down [core] memory lane Re: VMS news on news.com Re: VMS news on news.com Re: VMS news on news.com) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:39:14 +0100 9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....0 Message-ID: <c7i9s4$p83$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Keith Parris wrote:   a > "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<c6csgq$1bmh$1@news.cybercity.dk>...  > I >>Is Sun making it self ready for a Sparcide?  When Sun does not have the K >>resources to complete the UltraSparc V project why don't they collaborate M >>with Fujitsu on big servers?  Fujitsu has some very interesting projects on 
 >>SPARC64. >  >   @ Funny, Sun is being slated for axing a processor (USV) in favourA of one that no one outside Sun knew existed before January (Rock) - and this is being touted as the end of SPARC.   = It doesn't take much intelligence to work out that this isn't " actually a very logical possition.  F > But how long will Fujitsu continue to pour money down the SPARC hole7 > when they see Sun themselves cancelling CPU projects?  > @ > Fujitsu has already started shipping systems based on Itanium:c > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,88366,00.html?from=story_picks * > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7392 >   6 Given Itaniums problems if you really think that SPARC6 is a dead platform then Fuji don't seem to have made a very smart move.  7 Itanium is for HP, the sooner the rest of the Intel OEM 9 community wake up to that fact the better (for them), IBM = already have and its only a matter of time before NEC, Unisys : and the rest give up on what have been a major problem for HP and a disaster for them.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 09:23:47 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> H Subject: RE: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3143F4@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   ----Original Message----- E > From: Andrew Harrison [mailto:andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com]=20  > Sent: May 8, 2004 5:39 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the=20 > same way ..... >=20 > Keith Parris wrote:  >=20< > > "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message=20+ > news:<c6csgq$1bmh$1@news.cybercity.dk>...  > >=20A > >>Is Sun making it self ready for a Sparcide?  When Sun does=20  > not have the? > >>resources to complete the UltraSparc V project why don't=20  > they collaborate: > >>with Fujitsu on big servers?  Fujitsu has some very=20 > interesting projects on  > >>SPARC64. > >=20 > >=20 >=20B > Funny, Sun is being slated for axing a processor (USV) in favourC > of one that no one outside Sun knew existed before January (Rock) / > and this is being touted as the end of SPARC.  >=20? > It doesn't take much intelligence to work out that this isn't $ > actually a very logical possition. >=20H > > But how long will Fujitsu continue to pour money down the SPARC hole9 > > when they see Sun themselves cancelling CPU projects?  > >=20B > > Fujitsu has already started shipping systems based on Itanium: > >=20@ > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,1' > 0801,88366,00.html?from=3Dstory_picks . > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=3D7392 > >=20 >=208 > Given Itaniums problems if you really think that SPARC8 > is a dead platform then Fuji don't seem to have made a > very smart move. >=209 > Itanium is for HP, the sooner the rest of the Intel OEM ; > community wake up to that fact the better (for them), IBM ? > already have and its only a matter of time before NEC, Unisys < > and the rest give up on what have been a major problem for > HP and a disaster for them.  >=20	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison  >=20   Andrew,   + Those last two paragraph's are pure fud.=20   E Especially if you take at look at the following article that looks at E why Sun is so anti-Itanium: (and potentially why Fujitsu has seen the  writing on the wall..)  ) http://www.techuser.net/index.php?id=3D46  Will Sun adopt Itanium?  by latif  [Apr 17, 2004]  & [..snip..see url for complete article]  E "Just accepting cash from Microsoft has not changed anything for Sun; G the company still needs to stem its losses quickly. The big problem for C Sun is that its cost structure is out of whack. Sun's Management is > aggressively cutting jobs, and has axed several of its planned? processors as well, but as long as the company keeps on pouring F resources into processor development, it won't be competitive with itsA rivals. Even worse, Sun's UltraSparc chips are starting to lag in : performance in comparison to Intel's Itanium offerings.=20  H Slowly but surely Itanium is going to achieve much higher volumes, and aH more attractive price point. Intel has indicated that it is striving forB price parity between Itanium and Xeon by 2007. If Intel is able toF achieve even 50 percent of its goals, Sun will be out of business. SunH needs to move over to Itanium, and the company needs to do that quickly.D However, recently a Sun executive indicated recently that Sun has noD plans to move to Itanium, and that the company believes Itanium is a@ technological dead-end. This is pure FUD; Sun executives are notE trust-worthy (as demonstrated by McNealy,) and their babblings should C not be taken seriously. Itanium is a huge threat for Sun, and Sun's F management knows it. The company would like to move to Itanium, but is unable to do so.=20   H Sun's biggest problem in transitioning to Itanium is that the company isG very late to the party. Sun has no expertise in designing systems built C around the Itanium architecture, but its main competitors have been E designing Itanium based systems for a long time now. Consequently, if B Sun switches to Itanium, it will have to play second fiddle to itsG competitors. On top of that, coming up with a complete range of systems C built around the Itanium will require considerable time and expense & which Sun can ill afford at this time.   [..snip]   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 15:06:13 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....- Message-ID: <c7im0n$17o3$1@news.cybercity.dk>    Andrew Harrison wrote: > Keith Parris wrote:  > 8 >> "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message, >> news:<c6csgq$1bmh$1@news.cybercity.dk>... >>G >>> Is Sun making it self ready for a Sparcide?  When Sun does not have E >>> the resources to complete the UltraSparc V project why don't they C >>> collaborate with Fujitsu on big servers?  Fujitsu has some very $ >>> interesting projects on SPARC64. >> >> > B > Funny, Sun is being slated for axing a processor (USV) in favourC > of one that no one outside Sun knew existed before January (Rock) / > and this is being touted as the end of SPARC.  > ? > It doesn't take much intelligence to work out that this isn't $ > actually a very logical possition. > G >> But how long will Fujitsu continue to pour money down the SPARC hole 8 >> when they see Sun themselves cancelling CPU projects? >>A >> Fujitsu has already started shipping systems based on Itanium:  >>a http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,88366,00.html?from=story_picks + >> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7392  >> > 8 > Given Itaniums problems if you really think that SPARC8 > is a dead platform then Fuji don't seem to have made a > very smart move. > 9 > Itanium is for HP, the sooner the rest of the Intel OEM ; > community wake up to that fact the better (for them), IBM ? > already have and its only a matter of time before NEC, Unisys < > and the rest give up on what have been a major problem for > HP and a disaster for them.  >   K I agree andrew.  The question for the collective crystal ball is whell will H this event (the realisation that Itanic will actually sink) occur in the- collective boardrooms of NEC, UniSys et. al.?   	 Dr. Dweeb 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:21:41 +0200* From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....- Message-ID: <c7iqem$1den$1@news.cybercity.dk>   F "Andrew Harrison" <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> wrote in message* news:c7i9s4$p83$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... > Keith Parris wrote:  > 9 > > "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message ) news:<c6csgq$1bmh$1@news.cybercity.dk>...  > > K > >>Is Sun making it self ready for a Sparcide?  When Sun does not have the A > >>resources to complete the UltraSparc V project why don't they  collaborate L > >>with Fujitsu on big servers?  Fujitsu has some very interesting projects on > >>SPARC64. > >  > >  > B > Funny, Sun is being slated for axing a processor (USV) in favourC > of one that no one outside Sun knew existed before January (Rock) / > and this is being touted as the end of SPARC.  > ? > It doesn't take much intelligence to work out that this isn't $ > actually a very logical possition.  K My original posting included a reference to an article at The Inquirer that K Sun and Serverworks are working together on chipset for 16 and 32 processor L Opteron servers.  The marked for 16 and 32 processor x86 servers is so smallE that I cannot imagen Sun making money on such server unless it starts L selling Solaris on it.  However, I have been searching the Internet, and allL the articles on such a partnership between Sun and Serverworks refer back toI rumors on www.AMDzone.com  I do not have any reliable sources if there is  such a partnership.   H > > But how long will Fujitsu continue to pour money down the SPARC hole9 > > when they see Sun themselves cancelling CPU projects?  > > B > > Fujitsu has already started shipping systems based on Itanium: > > a http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,88366,00.html?from=story_picks , > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7392 > >  > 8 > Given Itaniums problems if you really think that SPARC8 > is a dead platform then Fuji don't seem to have made a > very smart move. > 9 > Itanium is for HP, the sooner the rest of the Intel OEM ; > community wake up to that fact the better (for them), IBM ? > already have and its only a matter of time before NEC, Unisys < > and the rest give up on what have been a major problem for > HP and a disaster for them.   I Well if Sun is planning to kill Sparc, then it is doing it in a much more H sensible way than HP.  Sun is continuing developing Sparc at least untilJ there is a replacement.  Sun chances to a processor that has at least someI success in the marketplace and AMD has demonstrated that they can produce L processors with attractive performance and price/performance ratio.  You canK build cheap workstations and small servers using Ahlon 64 chips.  That will / not be possible with Itanic in the near future.   K I doubt there will be room for three processor architectures (Power, Itanic H and Sparc) for Unix in the future, but it is too early to say which will	 continue.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2004 09:53:40 -0700 ' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....= Message-ID: <734da31c.0405080853.41379be0@posting.google.com>   q Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> wrote in message news:<c7i9s4$p83$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > Keith Parris wrote:  > c > > "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<c6csgq$1bmh$1@news.cybercity.dk>...  > > K > >>Is Sun making it self ready for a Sparcide?  When Sun does not have the M > >>resources to complete the UltraSparc V project why don't they collaborate O > >>with Fujitsu on big servers?  Fujitsu has some very interesting projects on  > >>SPARC64. > >  > B > Funny, Sun is being slated for axing a processor (USV) in favourC > of one that no one outside Sun knew existed before January (Rock) / > and this is being touted as the end of SPARC.  > ? > It doesn't take much intelligence to work out that this isn't $ > actually a very logical possition.  8 Sun must replace hot air with firm chip detail - Gartner< http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/07/gartner_callson_sun/  H > > But how long will Fujitsu continue to pour money down the SPARC hole9 > > when they see Sun themselves cancelling CPU projects?  > > B > > Fujitsu has already started shipping systems based on Itanium:e > > http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,88366,00.html?from=story_picks , > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7392 > >  > 8 > Given Itaniums problems if you really think that SPARC8 > is a dead platform then Fuji don't seem to have made a > very smart move.  O I don't think Fujitsu shipped more than about 20000-40000 Sparc CPUs last year.   9 > Itanium is for HP, the sooner the rest of the Intel OEM ; > community wake up to that fact the better (for them), IBM ? > already have and its only a matter of time before NEC, Unisys < > and the rest give up on what have been a major problem for > HP and a disaster for them.    That is FUD., IBM have not changed their Itanium plans and& NEC is doing pretty well with Itanium.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:16:02 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply), Subject: Re: CXX installation failure on VAX$ Message-ID: <c7i502$1lf$1@online.de>  F In article <zUymc.1035$zY3.162@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:    y > In article <c7a15j$4ld$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: G > :In article <LFUlc.874$MY1.87@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff  > :Hoffman) writes:  > : | > :> In article <c78tj5$its$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:O > :> :MOVE_FILE CXX$PH_TEMP VMI$ROOT:[CXX$LIB.REFERENCE.CXXL$DEF_H]COMPLEX.H; K  > :> :Any ideas? > :>   >  >   OK, did some digging.      Thanks.   ; >   It's a conflict between the installations of C and C++.  >  >   Here's a workaround:    I'll give it a try this weekend.  G >     1: Extract COMPLEX from SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB, and save it.  > R >       libr/extract=complex/out=sys$scratch:complex.h SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB > 8 >     2: Remove COMPLEX from SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB > 7 >       libr/delete=complex SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB  >  >     3: Install Compaq C++  > I >     4: Reinsert the saved COMPLEX back into SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB  > E >       libr/insert SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB sys$scratch:complex.h   + Presumably, step 0. should be installing C.   G >   There is also apparently at least one ECO for the C++ V5.6 compiler I >   for OpenVMS VAX, as well.  (I do not know if the ECO addresses this.)   F Normally, I install stuff then apply the ECOs.  Even if there were an H ECO addressing this problem, presumably there is no way to avoid it for > a first-time install (as opposed to an upgrade) using the ECO.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:06:50 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)  Subject: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE$ Message-ID: <c7ibfq$dm6$1@online.de>  E I'm a bit confused about SET FILE/NOMOVE and its relationship to DFO.   I When installing DFO, it asks if SET FILE/NOMOVE has been run against the  D system disk.  In order to do this, one cannot have booted from that H system disk.  In other words, one must boot from, for example, the boot D CD and execute SET FILE/NOMOVE from there.  If the system disk is a 7 shadow set, should one execute it against both members?   I Presumably, this "anchors" the system files to the disk, preventing them  H from being moved about by DFO.  This would only make sense, however, if F the disk is not fragmented, i.e. one should first defragment the disk C via BACKUP/IMAGE then run SET FILE/NOMOVE then install DFO.  Right?   F Why do the system-disk files need this anchoring while files on other  disks apparently don't?   G What happens if one later installs additional stuff---layered products, H VMS upgrade, patches etc---on the system disk?  These new files will notG have had SET FILE/NOMOVE run on them.  Should one periodically run this H command (which would involve periodically booting from CD, defragmentingH the disk via BACKUP/IMAGE then running SET FILE/NOMOVE)?  Presumably, itD is possible to install new stuff on the system disk after installing= DFO.  In that case, why does one need SET FILE/NOMOVE at all?   H Presumably, one should have a disk defragmented by the node to which it F has a direct connection.  What about shadow sets with members on more D than one node?  Should they be defragmented by all nodes which host  disks in that shadow set?    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 11:00:34 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE6 Message-ID: <00A31839.7A1C276E@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  w In article <c7ibfq$dm6$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: F >I'm a bit confused about SET FILE/NOMOVE and its relationship to DFO. > J >When installing DFO, it asks if SET FILE/NOMOVE has been run against the E >system disk.  In order to do this, one cannot have booted from that  I >system disk.  In other words, one must boot from, for example, the boot  E >CD and execute SET FILE/NOMOVE from there.  If the system disk is a  8 >shadow set, should one execute it against both members? > J >Presumably, this "anchors" the system files to the disk, preventing them I >from being moved about by DFO.  This would only make sense, however, if  G >the disk is not fragmented, i.e. one should first defragment the disk  D >via BACKUP/IMAGE then run SET FILE/NOMOVE then install DFO.  Right? > G >Why do the system-disk files need this anchoring while files on other   >disks apparently don't?  F I'd think that the boot block and stuff the boot block points to can'tE be moved around; you don't get to use the whole file system to get at M that, so if it gets moved from the designated blocks, it's gone.  (Similarly, L if you for some reason defragmented the pagefile while it was in use - whichH I think there are probably sufficient safeguards to keep DFO from doing,H anyway - and that involved moving it someplace else, you could end with ? VMS writing stuff into places where the pagefile no longer is.)      > H >What happens if one later installs additional stuff---layered products,I >VMS upgrade, patches etc---on the system disk?  These new files will not H >have had SET FILE/NOMOVE run on them.  Should one periodically run thisI >command (which would involve periodically booting from CD, defragmenting I >the disk via BACKUP/IMAGE then running SET FILE/NOMOVE)?  Presumably, it E >is possible to install new stuff on the system disk after installing > >DFO.  In that case, why does one need SET FILE/NOMOVE at all?  L Well, VMS upgrades seem likely to write a new boot block which points to theK new files.  But I don't know whether you ought to rerun SET FILE/NOMOVE; it G sounds plausible that you should, unless this is now done automatically  as part of the upgrade.    -- Alan      --  O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2004 06:17:07 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) $ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE3 Message-ID: <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <c7ibfq$dm6$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: G > I'm a bit confused about SET FILE/NOMOVE and its relationship to DFO.  > K > When installing DFO, it asks if SET FILE/NOMOVE has been run against the  F > system disk.  In order to do this, one cannot have booted from that J > system disk.  In other words, one must boot from, for example, the boot F > CD and execute SET FILE/NOMOVE from there.  If the system disk is a 9 > shadow set, should one execute it against both members?   D SET FILE/NOMOVE is a file system activity.  Shadowing is below that.  K > Presumably, this "anchors" the system files to the disk, preventing them     Certain system files.   J > from being moved about by DFO.  This would only make sense, however, if H > the disk is not fragmented, i.e. one should first defragment the disk E > via BACKUP/IMAGE then run SET FILE/NOMOVE then install DFO.  Right?    Yes.  H > Why do the system-disk files need this anchoring while files on other  > disks apparently don't?    i C Certain system files are accessed in special ways during operation,  bypassing the file systeml.   I > What happens if one later installs additional stuff---layered products, J > VMS upgrade, patches etc---on the system disk?  These new files will not    Those are not the special files.  I > have had SET FILE/NOMOVE run on them.  Should one periodically run this J > command (which would involve periodically booting from CD, defragmentingJ > the disk via BACKUP/IMAGE then running SET FILE/NOMOVE)?  Presumably, itF > is possible to install new stuff on the system disk after installing? > DFO.  In that case, why does one need SET FILE/NOMOVE at all?   : Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com.   J > Presumably, one should have a disk defragmented by the node to which it H > has a direct connection.  What about shadow sets with members on more F > than one node?  Should they be defragmented by all nodes which host  > disks in that shadow set?   G Defragmentation is at the level of the file system.  Shadowing is below  that.    ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 12:21:10 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE$ Message-ID: <c7ijbm$u48$1@online.de>  3 In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   y > In article <c7ibfq$dm6$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: I > > I'm a bit confused about SET FILE/NOMOVE and its relationship to DFO.  > > M > > When installing DFO, it asks if SET FILE/NOMOVE has been run against the  H > > system disk.  In order to do this, one cannot have booted from that L > > system disk.  In other words, one must boot from, for example, the boot H > > CD and execute SET FILE/NOMOVE from there.  If the system disk is a ; > > shadow set, should one execute it against both members?  > F > SET FILE/NOMOVE is a file system activity.  Shadowing is below that.  F Right.  However, if I boot from the CD, I don't have shadowing (and asC far as I know can't get it), so I would have to run it against each ? member individually.  In that case, however, I would have to do ? MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW and reconstruct the shadow set later.  Ugly.    L > > from being moved about by DFO.  This would only make sense, however, if J > > the disk is not fragmented, i.e. one should first defragment the disk G > > via BACKUP/IMAGE then run SET FILE/NOMOVE then install DFO.  Right?  >  > Yes.   OK.   < > Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com.   OK, thanks for the pointer!   L > > Presumably, one should have a disk defragmented by the node to which it J > > has a direct connection.  What about shadow sets with members on more H > > than one node?  Should they be defragmented by all nodes which host  > > disks in that shadow set?  > I > Defragmentation is at the level of the file system.  Shadowing is below  > that.   G Right.  However, one each node DFO is running on, I can have a list of  G disks---shadow sets---for it to defragment.  The question is, should I  < have the same shadow set in the list for more than one node.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 12:39:56 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE$ Message-ID: <c7ikes$u48$3@online.de>  3 In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   < > Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com. >   L > > Presumably, one should have a disk defragmented by the node to which it J > > has a direct connection.  What about shadow sets with members on more H > > than one node?  Should they be defragmented by all nodes which host  > > disks in that shadow set?  > I > Defragmentation is at the level of the file system.  Shadowing is below  > that.    This is from SETFILENOMOVE.COM  ' $ IF F$GETDVI ("''disk'","SHDW_MEMBER")  $ THEN6 $     master = F$GETDVI ("''disk'","SHDW_MASTER_NAME")D $     say "%SETFILENOMOVE-F-SHDWMEM, ''disk' is a shadow set member"> $     say " Please re-run this procedure using disk ''master'"E $     say " if you wish to set the NOMOVE attribute on disk ''disk'."  $     GOTO LEAVING $ ENDIF   H If a disk is part of a shadow set, the symbol "master" will be the name H of the shadow set, and it will tell me to run SETFILENOMOVE against the I shadow set.  But if I have booted from CD, I don't have any shadow sets,   as far as I know.   ) Or is SHADOWING=2 when one boots from CD?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:25:43 +0200 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE* Message-ID: <2g48v8F4cuhlU1@uni-berlin.de>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: 5 > In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:  >  > < >>Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com. >  > J > OK, I modified a copy of this to do a dir/full on the files and tell me G > if the movefile attribute is disabled.  It is disabled on all of the   > files in the list. >  > So I guess I'm OK.  B I have a procedure which parses the filenames in setfilenomove.comH and uses f$file_attributes(file_spec, "MOVE") to determine if the files H there need the procedure running. Unfortunately f$file_attributes gives L an access conflict for open files, so my procedure does a DIR/FULL on these.   > I > On one or two of the system disks, I probably did this when installing  H > an older version of DFO a while back.  On another, though, I'm pretty G > sure that I never executed SETFILENOMOVE.COM against the system disk.  > K > Is it perhaps executed automatically as part of an install or upgrade on  K > recent versions of VMS?  If so, shouldn't the DFO installation only give  J > the warning if the version of VMS is so old that SETFILENOMOVE might be 	 > needed?  >   F It's a good idea to run it after a VMS upgrade, and that goes for any @ ECOs which replace files contained in setnomovefile.com. It's a 6 redundant step for sites without a defragmenting tool.    H > I'm still puzzled, though, about how one can, after having booted fromI > CD as recommended, execute SETFILENOMOVE against a system disk which is G > HBVS without breaking and reforming that shadow set (which, however,  : > would contradict the suggestion given by SETFILENOMOVE). >   I With a VMS upgrade, you are splitting the system disk before the upgrade  G in any case, so simply boot to the CD after the upgrade is complete to   run setfilenomove.com.  G But here's another point. As far as I can see, setfilenomove.com needs  E to be run from a separate disk only because it uses SET FILE/NOMOVE,   which cannot access open files.   C An alternative is to use dfu, with the obvious support caveats for    production and critical systems.   For example:  @ $ dfu set sys$system:sys$incarnation.dat/nomove/ignore=interlock   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 13:37:34 GMT 5 From: brad@rabbit.dnsalias.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) $ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE- Message-ID: <xo5nc.4696$536.902249@attbi_s03>   w In article <c7imck$1uh$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: 4 !In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>,1 !Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   ! = !> Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com.  !snip!H !On one or two of the system disks, I probably did this when installing G !an older version of DFO a while back.  On another, though, I'm pretty  F !sure that I never executed SETFILENOMOVE.COM against the system disk. ! J !Is it perhaps executed automatically as part of an install or upgrade on J !recent versions of VMS?  If so, shouldn't the DFO installation only give I !the warning if the version of VMS is so old that SETFILENOMOVE might be   !needed? !   K I'd like to learn a bit more about this myself, but I'm going to take a WAG E here, and say that when a file is "upgraded" by an ECO, that the file M "inherits" file attributes (inclufing MoveFile disabled) from the file it is  M superceding.  Unless, of course, the kit writers are careful about specifying , such attributes at the time of installation.  G !I'm still puzzled, though, about how one can, after having booted from H !CD as recommended, execute SETFILENOMOVE against a system disk which isF !HBVS without breaking and reforming that shadow set (which, however, 9 !would contradict the suggestion given by SETFILENOMOVE).  !   J I don't remember, but I don't think that disks are shadowed in single-userK mode.  I do remember, that I just executed SETFILENOMOVE against the "boot" D disk, and trusted that SHADOWING would do the rest upon full reboot.  J __________________________________________________________________________A Bradford J. Hamilton                    "All opinions are my own" K bMradAhamiPltSon-at-coMmcAast.nPeSt     "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-'  0                                          with @"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:34:25 +0200 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE* Message-ID: <2g49fjF46o94U1@uni-berlin.de>   Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:.y > In article <c7imck$1uh$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:e6 > !In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>,3 > !Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   > ! ? > !> Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com.n > !snip!J > !On one or two of the system disks, I probably did this when installing I > !an older version of DFO a while back.  On another, though, I'm pretty NH > !sure that I never executed SETFILENOMOVE.COM against the system disk. > ! L > !Is it perhaps executed automatically as part of an install or upgrade on L > !recent versions of VMS?  If so, shouldn't the DFO installation only give K > !the warning if the version of VMS is so old that SETFILENOMOVE might be s
 > !needed? > !T > M > I'd like to learn a bit more about this myself, but I'm going to take a WAG G > here, and say that when a file is "upgraded" by an ECO, that the fileeO > "inherits" file attributes (inclufing MoveFile disabled) from the file it is uO > superceding.  Unless, of course, the kit writers are careful about specifying . > such attributes at the time of installation. >R  H No, I don't think it does inherit the MoveFile attribute. This would be H a nice enhancment to have, but I've no idea what effort this might take.    I > !I'm still puzzled, though, about how one can, after having booted from J > !CD as recommended, execute SETFILENOMOVE against a system disk which isH > !HBVS without breaking and reforming that shadow set (which, however, ; > !would contradict the suggestion given by SETFILENOMOVE).e > !a > L > I don't remember, but I don't think that disks are shadowed in single-userM > mode.  I do remember, that I just executed SETFILENOMOVE against the "boot"nF > disk, and trusted that SHADOWING would do the rest upon full reboot. >   I I suppose you could create a 3rd shadow member, then boot from that, and  I manually mount the real system disk as a shadow set to run it, but is it   worth the hassle?r   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 13:12:52 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE$ Message-ID: <c7imck$1uh$1@online.de>  3 In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o0 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   < > Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com.  H OK, I modified a copy of this to do a dir/full on the files and tell me E if the movefile attribute is disabled.  It is disabled on all of the t files in the list.   So I guess I'm OK.  G On one or two of the system disks, I probably did this when installing iF an older version of DFO a while back.  On another, though, I'm pretty E sure that I never executed SETFILENOMOVE.COM against the system disk.R  I Is it perhaps executed automatically as part of an install or upgrade on sI recent versions of VMS?  If so, shouldn't the DFO installation only give uH the warning if the version of VMS is so old that SETFILENOMOVE might be  needed?   F I'm still puzzled, though, about how one can, after having booted fromG CD as recommended, execute SETFILENOMOVE against a system disk which isoE HBVS without breaking and reforming that shadow set (which, however, t8 would contradict the suggestion given by SETFILENOMOVE).   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:29:42 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE$ Message-ID: <c7iqsm$bs2$1@online.de>  5 In article <2g48v8F4cuhlU1@uni-berlin.de>, Paul Sturer" <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:   H > It's a good idea to run it after a VMS upgrade, and that goes for any B > ECOs which replace files contained in setnomovefile.com. It's a 8 > redundant step for sites without a defragmenting tool.   Why redundant?  J > > I'm still puzzled, though, about how one can, after having booted fromK > > CD as recommended, execute SETFILENOMOVE against a system disk which is I > > HBVS without breaking and reforming that shadow set (which, however, o< > > would contradict the suggestion given by SETFILENOMOVE). > K > With a VMS upgrade, you are splitting the system disk before the upgrade eI > in any case, so simply boot to the CD after the upgrade is complete to p > run setfilenomove.com.  H OK, if I have upgraded the system disk.  But what if I haven't upgraded @ it, i.e. do I have to split the shadow set to run the procedure?  E It appears that it only applies to the system disk anyway.  Since it eI can't be run on the disk the system booted from, what's the point of the  0 message saying to run it against the shadow set?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:45:07 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE6 Message-ID: <409D0083.2548CBE9@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:s > 5 > In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>,c1 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:0 > { > > In article <c7ibfq$dm6$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: K > > > I'm a bit confused about SET FILE/NOMOVE and its relationship to DFO.  > > >aN > > > When installing DFO, it asks if SET FILE/NOMOVE has been run against theI > > > system disk.  In order to do this, one cannot have booted from thatdM > > > system disk.  In other words, one must boot from, for example, the boothI > > > CD and execute SET FILE/NOMOVE from there.  If the system disk is ad= > > > shadow set, should one execute it against both members?g > >sH > > SET FILE/NOMOVE is a file system activity.  Shadowing is below that. > H > Right.  However, if I boot from the CD, I don't have shadowing (and asE > far as I know can't get it), so I would have to run it against eachhA > member individually.  In that case, however, I would have to do.@ > MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW and reconstruct the shadow set later.  Ugly.  C You'd have to do that anyway. Shadow-sets cannot be MOUNTed/FOREIGNoH which is required for the target of BACKUP/IMAGE, which is how you would do massive defrag of a volume.  M > > > from being moved about by DFO.  This would only make sense, however, ifsK > > > the disk is not fragmented, i.e. one should first defragment the diskoI > > > via BACKUP/IMAGE then run SET FILE/NOMOVE then install DFO.  Right?u > >l > > Yes. >  > OK.a > > > > Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com. >  > OK, thanks for the pointer!u > M > > > Presumably, one should have a disk defragmented by the node to which itlK > > > has a direct connection.  What about shadow sets with members on more I > > > than one node?  Should they be defragmented by all nodes which hostl > > > disks in that shadow set?o > > K > > Defragmentation is at the level of the file system.  Shadowing is below 	 > > that.t > H > Right.  However, one each node DFO is running on, I can have a list ofH > disks---shadow sets---for it to defragment.  The question is, should I> > have the same shadow set in the list for more than one node.  & It's been a while, but my guts say no.   -- o David J. Dachterah dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:47:24 -0500n@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>$ Subject: Re: DFO and SET FILE/NOMOVE6 Message-ID: <409D010C.159F4080@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:n > 5 > In article <2M$IeesX5AzL@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o1 > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:n > > > > Look at the list of files in sys$system:setfilenomove.com. > >uM > > > Presumably, one should have a disk defragmented by the node to which it.K > > > has a direct connection.  What about shadow sets with members on morecI > > > than one node?  Should they be defragmented by all nodes which hostv > > > disks in that shadow set?e > >0K > > Defragmentation is at the level of the file system.  Shadowing is belowr	 > > that.e >   > This is from SETFILENOMOVE.COM > ) > $ IF F$GETDVI ("''disk'","SHDW_MEMBER")y > $ THEN8 > $     master = F$GETDVI ("''disk'","SHDW_MASTER_NAME")F > $     say "%SETFILENOMOVE-F-SHDWMEM, ''disk' is a shadow set member"@ > $     say " Please re-run this procedure using disk ''master'"G > $     say " if you wish to set the NOMOVE attribute on disk ''disk'."s > $     GOTO LEAVING	 > $ ENDIFc > I > If a disk is part of a shadow set, the symbol "master" will be the nameoI > of the shadow set, and it will tell me to run SETFILENOMOVE against the.J > shadow set.  But if I have booted from CD, I don't have any shadow sets, > as far as I know.o  C The attribute it's looking is stored in the DCB, not on the volume.n  + > Or is SHADOWING=2 when one boots from CD?t  H HBVS is not available in the CD boot environment, AFAIK. That is to say,D the software may be present, but I am at a loss to understand how to actiavte it.   --   David J. DachteraS dba DJE Systemsc http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/p   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 06:51:48 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>h Subject: Disaster Recovery9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEGHDDAA.tom@kednos.com>t  7 I normally throw out the monthly Costco Connection Mag,aD but I noticed Carly's smiling face on the cover so I decided to readE the interview.  Of course the whole interview, as you may preceive iseH orientated towards small to medium business needs.  In any event, in oneH response she says, "... Second, we have the technology that spans every F set of requirements that small and medium businesses could want - fromJ imaging and printing solutions to disaster recovery to desktop solutions."  + So I am curious, is she thinking about VMS?d --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 4/23/2004   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:29:18 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c Subject: Re: Disaster Recovery, Message-ID: <sv6dnTcdlfnQbQHdRVn-vg@igs.net>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEGHDDAA.tom@kednos.com... 9 > I normally throw out the monthly Costco Connection Mag,eF > but I noticed Carly's smiling face on the cover so I decided to readG > the interview.  Of course the whole interview, as you may preceive ismJ > orientated towards small to medium business needs.  In any event, in oneI > response she says, "... Second, we have the technology that spans everyRH > set of requirements that small and medium businesses could want - fromL > imaging and printing solutions to disaster recovery to desktop solutions." >k- > So I am curious, is she thinking about VMS?A    I Nope. She's think about you having another printer in a 'secure location'c+ with lots of backup ink cartridges on-hand.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:29:21 +0200 ( From: Andreas Davour <ante@update.uu.se> Subject: Re: EVE customizationso0 Message-ID: <cs9vfj7x7hq.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>  = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:c  ] > In article <cs9u0yt3cnq.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>, Andreas Davour <ante@update.uu.se> writes:a >> Hi! >> r? >> I've just started using EVE for some VAX COBOL programming. c >>  J >> Having used emacs and its ability to recognize files and automatically H >> start the right "code-mode", I was wondering if there was some way to >> make EVE do the same? >hG >    EVE does not try to force coding standards on you.  It's a generala9 >    purpopse text editor, not a broken down code editor.  >pD >    You can write TPU functions that do that sort of thing, if your >    foolish enough.  H OK, considering I don't know much about TPU functions I guess I'd better> look elsewhere then. Thanks for that help. At least I know TPU- programming can extend EVE in that direction.t  F Otherwise I find you answer puzzling. I was asking about how to use anH editor for coding, so of course that was the fuctionallity I was after! 3 (I wasn't talking about coding standards though...)   < Is that folish when coding? *shrug* Each to his own I guess.   /Andreas   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:30:30 +0200t( From: Andreas Davour <ante@update.uu.se> Subject: Re: EVE customizations 0 Message-ID: <cs9r7tvx7ft.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>  5 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:m  ? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:o >wB >> In article <cs9u0yt3cnq.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>, Andreas Davour >> <ante@update.uu.se> writes: >r@ >>> I've just started using EVE for some VAX COBOL programming.  >nK >>> Having used emacs and its ability to recognize files and automatically tI >>> start the right "code-mode", I was wondering if there was some way toy >>> make EVE do the same?e > H >>    EVE does not try to force coding standards on you.  It's a general: >>    purpopse text editor, not a broken down code editor. >sP > As is Emacs, which does not *force* any coding standards on anyone, but ratherQ > simply allows those who wish to, to use them.  It's just more easily programmed  > than EVE.a >nO > (This posting, for example, was written *and transmitted* from within Emacs.)r  . Like this is, and my original post as well. :)   /andreas   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:38:35 +0200 ( From: Andreas Davour <ante@update.uu.se> Subject: Re: EVE customizationsS0 Message-ID: <cs9n04jx72c.fsf@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>  ( David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> writes:  O > On Thu, 06 May 2004 15:31:21 +0200, Andreas Davour <ante@update.uu.se> wrote:d >r >>Hi!a >>> >>I've just started using EVE for some VAX COBOL programming.  >>I >>Having used emacs and its ability to recognize files and automatically  G >>start the right "code-mode", I was wondering if there was some way toc >>make EVE do the same?s >>G >>I have been reading the electronic documentation for EVE, but haven'tw' >>found anything yet. Pointers welcome!l >_P > I don't know emacs, and I don't know what you mean by "code-mode", but if whatN > you mean is a Cobol-sensitive editing environment then probably what you areO > looking for is LSE (Language Sensitive Editor) which is a layered product anddL > (unfortunately) separately licensed. I've never used it myself, so I can't? > compare it or tell you feature, but you can read about it at:n >s, > 	http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/decset.html >d > (today's link).u  H Maybe I should have specified my needs more. A "mode" in emacs helps youC with syntax hilighting and indention and completetion of code. It's E fairly handy if you're doing FORTRAN or COBOL, since columns matters.o  E Thanks for the link! I'll check it out and see if LSE might be what It need.   M > Checking my hobbyist PAKs, I see they do include a VAXSET license PAK, so IfQ > could learn it at home! (I don't know if your system is hobbyist or corporate.)i  H I'm using a hobbyist system for the moment, so then I might also already have the PAK needed.   /andreas   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:54:10 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>cU Subject: Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be   OpenVMSc, Message-ID: <NY-dnQg81MAPaQHdRVn-hg@igs.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message: news:a2314b901f061e794ff18677689e22e5@news.teranews.com... > John Smith wrote: I > > and I'd love to write an OpenVMS Swift-certified gateway but there is@H > > precious little market for OpenVMS in that market due to a dwindling numberJ > > of VMS systems in the banking/brokerage world and zero (0) advertising intoH > > that market. JF, if HP would like to fund my efforts, cash up-front, maybeX > > you'd like to help out?> > G > Of course. But getting SWIFT's blessing to have a VMS-based certifiede solutionL > would take a serious commitment from HP. Also, for banks to consider a VMSI > based solution, it would take much more than a 2 man outfit, you'd needa serousI > money to fund a real company with real/continual support. Remember thatY withI > SWIFT, you need constant software upgrades delivered on specific dates.  > I > > Unfortunately given the nature of the types of transactions and theirl value L > > it is highly unlikely that many banks/brokers would ever consider an ASP for  > > this sort of thing.  >$K > The problem is that SWIFT connect to corporate banking platforms and fromb an0 > security point of view, there are many issues. > K > However, one canadian trust company which was purchased by a toronto bankkK > which has a house of water brokerage firm used to have ST400 on VMS whoseE OS! > management had been outsourced.s >gL > Where the ASP model may work is for branches of foreign banks operating in a(K > country. They may not want to deal with the overhead of running their own G > SWIFT terminal and having some trusted firm provide disaster-tolerantE turnkeyP! > solution might be a good thing.e  F In many cases like that, they'd have a branch BIC running on the SwiftJ gateway at galactic HQ and then delivering via internal networks. At leastL that's been my experience, but it may be very different when HQ is in NY andJ the branch is in Rio as opposed to HQ in Rome and the branch is in Zurich.J Banks and brokers often have a lightly different philosophy about how they prefer to do these things.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:19:41 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)E Subject: Re: looking for suggestions for new $GETDVI item codes . . .o$ Message-ID: <c7i56t$1lf$2@online.de>  H How about the possibility to get ALL terminal attributes with one call, G and a way to set them ALL back, instead of one line of DCL for each TT e thingy.c   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2004 06:11:43 -0600s- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)eE Subject: Re: looking for suggestions for new $GETDVI item codes . . . 3 Message-ID: <kZ9os5Hlmfcz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <c7i56t$1lf$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:BJ > How about the possibility to get ALL terminal attributes with one call, I > and a way to set them ALL back, instead of one line of DCL for each TT h	 > thingy.n  . From DCL, that is done with SET/SHOW terminal.  ; From anywhere else, the "get" part is natural with $GETDVI.i   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 12:27:45 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)E Subject: Re: looking for suggestions for new $GETDVI item codes . . . $ Message-ID: <c7ijo1$u48$2@online.de>  3 In article <kZ9os5Hlmfcz@eisner.encompasserve.org>,D0 Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   y > In article <c7i56t$1lf$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: L > > How about the possibility to get ALL terminal attributes with one call, K > > and a way to set them ALL back, instead of one line of DCL for each TT s > > thingy.i > 0 > From DCL, that is done with SET/SHOW terminal. > = > From anywhere else, the "get" part is natural with $GETDVI.   H Right.  However, at the moment one has to get the individual items with I F$GETDVI into separate symbols (I don't want to parse the output of SHOW bE TERMINAL), then use SET TERMINAL with a bunch of qualifiers to reset iD them.  It would be nice if there were some $GETDVI code which would F return, say, a bitmask indicating whether various things visible with A SHOW TERMINAL have "No" in front of them, then use a compact SET O TERMINAL command to reset them.   ( $  TT_BIT_MASK = F$GETDVI("TT","TT_ALL") .r .  .l, $  SET TERMINAL/ALL_ATTRIBUTES='TT_BIT_MASK'   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 15:19:31 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: more DFO questions $ Message-ID: <c7itq3$eka$1@online.de>  B I have DF0 2.6 on all nodes (2 VAX and 1 ALPHA).  Soon, I plan to D install 2.7.  Things work fine on the VAXen, but on the ALPHA I get:  + Disk File Optimizer for OpenVMS DFG ECOV2.6mB Copyright  Compaq Computer Corp. 1991,2001.   All rights reservedE %DFG-F-IEDBDATA, logically inconsistent data in relation SCRIPT_NAMESa  H According to the message, I should submit an SPR.  In my case, however, ; the inconsistency was probably caused by me fiddling about.N  A What's the easiest way to get a "clean start", preferably without I de-installing DFO?  Can I delete some files in DFG$DATABASE and count on AF them being recreated, properly?  Related to that, presumably it would F make sense to move DFG$DATABASE to a non-system disk (such as the one G where I have SYSUAF.DAT and so on, with corresponding logicals defined sG in SYLOGICALS.COM).  In that case, are there any files I need to copy,  3 or can I just count on them being created properly?V   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 01:51:35 -0500a( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon)2 Subject: Re: Normal operating temerpature for ES401 Message-ID: <04050801513569@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>s   rcbryan@hotmail.com writes:OB > The "High CPU Temp" warning is a bit disturbing.  80C is 176F, aE > little toasty.  Why does it show temperatures for CPUs that are not  > there? > 
 > Regards, > /RC Bryan=  I The threads prior to this one for this procedure states that there is one-O sensor per CPU with three additional sensors.  Not sure where they are located,mC however I heard they are located in the front of the server itself.s  M I think that the temperature is Fahrenheit.   That too was brought up.  And InK tend to agree with that - especially if the sensors are in the front of thepL server - the incoming air would be fairly close to the ambient temerature ofO the room.  Which I have verified within a few degrees - measured immediately inn front of the server.  I I do not know what the temperature threshold is either however I recentlynI encountered a range of 87 to 93 and was experiencing cluster failures.  ISL currently monitor the servers and notify when it hits 87.  The environmental& range is 50 to 90 (or there abouts).         J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*nm VMS Systems Administratorl* firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 07:25:51 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>l2 Subject: Re: Normal operating temerpature for ES40@ Message-ID: <f551cb1176057eb44cb1b4dfc902a2c5@news.teranews.com>   John Brandon wrote:MM > tend to agree with that - especially if the sensors are in the front of thehN > server - the incoming air would be fairly close to the ambient temerature of > the room.e  L Unless you have a fan failure, at which point, temperature would rise and be indicative of failure.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:34:49 +0000 (UTC)3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> * Subject: Re: Oracle statement of direction0 Message-ID: <c7igko$7n4$1@sparta.btinternet.com>   Hi Norm,  G > With these releases, both database and applications will run entirely 
 > on Itanium.B  J I just re-read your note and wanted to check on something. I'm pretty sureH that your comment above was just refering to the time when an rdb$remoteE attachment to an Alpha would no longer be a *requirement* but can youeG confirm that the on-disk structure of Rdb databases on Itanium will notiG differ from those on VMS and mixed-architecture cluster support will bet there from year dot?   Regards Richard Mahern  K PS. Does anyone know the final outcome of VMS engineering support for VAXesaH in a mixed-architecture cluster with Itanium? Last I heard (I think fromK Hoff) was something like "We're not doing anything to break it but won't bey certifying it will work".   ? Norman Lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com> wrote in messageH$ news:40925215.7DF1FB34@oracle.com...? > It would be proper and correct to read into the document that<@ > Oracle Rdb and Oracle Database on OpenVMS are developed by two@ > different groups at Oracle who do not necessarily include eachC > other in their public statements about their respective products.r >y? > In fact, the port of Rdb to Itanium is well underway.  We arer? > soliciting volunteers who will bring application code and RdbEB > databases to the OpenVMS Boot Camp in Nashua.  We will work with> > them to port their code to Itanium processors at that event. >nD > We expect to release an ADK this quarter that will allow customersC > to compile their applications on Itanium while using Rdb's remotedC > access capabilities to read and write data on an Alpha processor.NF > We expect to release two beta test versions of Rdb on Itanium before@ > a final production release in the second quarter of next year.G > With these releases, both database and applications will run entirelyiC > on Itanium.  Of course, we continue to support Rdb on VAX & AlphaSB > processors as well (though active, 'new feature' work on the VAX > is declining). >. > - - - - -o2 >  opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone/ >  and certainly are not intended in any way tos2 >  express or represent any opinions or commitment >  of oracle corporation.  > , >  norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:28:04 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)# Subject: Re: pine or related on VMSt$ Message-ID: <c7i5mk$2gp$1@online.de>  : In article <20040507184307.25300.00000713@mb-m22.aol.com>,4 schroedingerzkat@aol.com (SchroedingerzKat) writes:   C > I've tried the "mail" program, but it's a tad difficult to follow  > threads, etc.   B For a while, I only had access to comp.os.vms via Info-VAX (i.e. aG mail-to-news gateway) so I wrote the procedure below.  It might not be s- completely bug-free, so use at your own risk!-  G With MAIL, you can SELECT/SUBJECT, which will present you with all the m1 mails on the same subject in chronological order.-  N ---------8<-------------------------------------------------------------------   $! THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER.COM $!& $! handy for efficiently reading email $! $! $! parameter existence $! $  IF F$LENGTH(P1) .EQ. 0  $  THENo $    WSO ""s/ $    WSO "pass name of folder to be read as P1" 9 $    WSO "optionally pass name of temporary folder as P2" 	 $    EXIT  $  ELSEn $    READ_FOLDER  = P1 $  ENDIF $  IF F$LENGTH(P2) .GT. 0  $  THEN  $    FILE_FOLDER  = P2 m $  ELSEa $    FILE_FOLDER := ZYXW $  ENDIF $! $! $! temporary files $!1 $  MF := SYS$SCRATCH:THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER_MAI.LIS;i1 $  LF := SYS$SCRATCH:THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER_DIR.LIS;E1 $  XF := SYS$SCRATCH:THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER_XXX.LIS; 1 $  NF := SYS$SCRATCH:THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER_NEW.LIS;E1 $  DF := SYS$SCRATCH:THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER_DEL.LIS;s1 $  RF := SYS$SCRATCH:THREAD_EMAIL_FOLDER_REA.LIS;u. $  IF  F$SEARCH(MF) .NES. "" THEN DELETE 'MF'*. $  IF  F$SEARCH(LF) .NES. "" THEN DELETE 'LF'*. $  IF  F$SEARCH(LF) .NES. "" THEN DELETE 'XF'*. $  IF  F$SEARCH(LF) .NES. "" THEN DELETE 'NF'*. $  IF  F$SEARCH(DF) .NES. "" THEN DELETE 'DF'*. $  IF  F$SEARCH(RF) .NES. "" THEN DELETE 'RF'* $! $! $! parameters OK?a $!C $!check for existence of folder to be read and exit if not present?  $! $! $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE $  OPEN/WRITE MAIL_FILE 'MF' $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  MAIL"/ $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     SELECT ''READ_FOLDER'"m $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     QUIT" $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  EXIT" $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE# $  DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$OUTPUT 'LF'v	 $  @ 'MF'o $  DELETE/NOLOG 'MF' $  SEA/OUT='XF' 'LF' "%MAIL-"o $  DELETE 'LF' $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_STATUS $  OPEN/READ MAIL_STATUS 'XF'  $  READ MAIL_STATUS MESSAGE  $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_STATUS $  DELETE 'XF'L $  IF MESSAGE .EQS. "%MAIL-E-NOTEXIST, folder ''READ_FOLDER' does not exist" $  THENf $    WSO "" 9 $    WSO "the specified folder to be read does not exist"e	 $    EXIT  $  ENDIF $! $!> $!check for existence of temporary folder and exit if present? $! $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE $  OPEN/WRITE MAIL_FILE 'MF' $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  MAIL"/ $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     SELECT ''FILE_FOLDER'"a $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     QUIT" $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  EXIT" $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE# $  DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$OUTPUT 'LF's	 $  @ 'MF', $  DELETE/NOLOG 'MF' $  SEA/OUT='XF' 'LF' "%MAIL-"r $  DELETE 'LF' $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_STATUS $  OPEN/READ MAIL_STATUS 'XF'e $  READ MAIL_STATUS MESSAGEM $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_STATUS $  DELETE 'XF'8 $  IF F$EXTRACT(0,18,MESSAGE) .EQS. "%MAIL-I-SELECTED, " $  THEN  $    WSO ""n8 $    WSO "the specified temporary folder already exists"	 $    EXITa $  ENDIF $! $! $! symbols needed laterS $! $  QUOTE = """" O $  MAX_LENGTH = F$GETDVI("SYS$OUTPUT","DEVBUFSIZ") - F$LENGTH(FILE_FOLDER) - 11  $! $! $! move to the temporary foldernA $! not really necessary, but allows incoming mail to be stored ina1 $! the original, presumably familiar folder name g $! $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE $  OPEN/WRITE MAIL_FILE 'MF' $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  MAIL"/ $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     SELECT ''READ_FOLDER'"b; $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     FILE/ALL/NOCONFIRM ''FILE_FOLDER'"o $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     QUIT" $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  EXIT" $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE	 $  @ 'MF'  $  DELETE/NOLOG 'MF' $! $! $! get a list of subjectsp $! $  OPEN/WRITE MAIL_FILE 'MF' $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  MAIL", $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     DIR ''FILE_FOLDER'" $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "     QUIT" $  WRITE MAIL_FILE "$  EXIT" $  CLOSE/NOLOG MAIL_FILE# $  DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$OUTPUT 'LF'n	 $  @ 'MF'p $  DELETE/NOLOG 'MF'8 $  SORT/NODUPLICATES/KEY=(POSITION:40,SIZE=41) 'LF' 'LF' $! $!> $! we want only the real subject, i.e. treat original message  $! and replies equally $  CLOSE/NOLOG DIR_LIS $  OPEN/READ DIR_LIS 'LF'- $  CLOSE/NOLOG NEW_LIS $  OPEN/WRITE NEW_LIS 'NF'	 $RE_LOOP:i' $  READ/END=END_RE_LOOP DIR_LIS SUBJECTu $  LENGTH = F$LENGTH(SUBJECT)O* $  TOPIC = F$EXTRACT(40,LENGTH-40,SUBJECT) $  LENGTH = F$LENGTH(TOPIC)18 $  IF F$EDIT(F$EXTRACT(0,4,TOPIC),"UPCASE") .EQS. "RE: " $  THENr- $    BARE_SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(4,LENGTH,TOPIC)25 $    SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(0,40,SUBJECT) + BARE_SUBJECTC $  ENDIF $  WRITE NEW_LIS SUBJECT
 $GOTO RE_LOOPt
 $END_RE_LOOP:s $  CLOSE/NOLOG DIR_LIS $  DELETE 'LF'*! $  CLOSE/NOLOG NEW_LISG $! the double sort is needed to retain empty subjects but put them lastD8 $  SORT/NODUPLICATES/KEY=(POSITION:41,SIZE=40) 'NF' 'NF'= $  SORT/NODUPLICATES/KEY=(POSITION:41,SIZE=40,DESC) 'NF' 'NF'. $! $! $! take some action  $! $  OPEN/READ NEW_LIS 'NF't $  R = 0 $  D = 0
 $ACTION_LOOP:s $! get rid of bogus recordse+ $  READ/END=DELETE_SUBJECTS NEW_LIS SUBJECT 4 $  IF F$EXTRACT(0,8,SUBJECT) .EQS. "You have" .OR. -4       F$EXTRACT(0,8,SUBJECT) .EQS. "        " .OR. -4       F$EXTRACT(0,8,SUBJECT) .EQS. "    # Fr" .OR. -4            F$LENGTH(SUBJECT) .EQS. 0               -    THEN GOTO ACTION_LOOP  $! we want only the real subject $  LENGTH = F$LENGTH(SUBJECT)u, $  SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(40,LENGTH-40,SUBJECT)	 $  WSO ""l $  IF F$LENGTH(SUBJECT) .EQ. 0 $  THENe $!   handle empty subject linesi- $!   later, get this from some "include" filev $    ESC[0,8] = 27 $    BOLD = ESC + "[1m"  $    NORM = ESC + "[0m"yO $    WSO BOLD + "[none]" + NORM + " (will be added to read list automatically)"h $    ANSWER := R $    GOTO ALREADY_ANSWERED $  ELSEF $    WSO SUBJECT $  ENDIF	 $READ_IT:u	 $  WSO ""h4 $  READ/PROMPT="Read or Delete? " SYS$COMMAND ANSWER0 $  ANSWER=F$EDIT(F$EXTRACT(0,1,ANSWER),"UPCASE") $ALREADY_ANSWERED: $  IF ANSWER .EQS. "R" $  THENu $    R = R + 1 $    IF R .EQ. 1	 $    THEN_ $      CLOSE/NOLOG READ_FILE  $      OPEN/WRITE READ_FILE 'RF'
 $    ENDIF $    WRITE READ_FILE SUBJECT $  ELSEi $    IF ANSWER .EQS. "D"	 $    THEN- $      D = D + 1 $      IF D .EQ. 1 $      THENt  $        CLOSE/NOLOG DELETE_FILE$ $        OPEN/WRITE DELETE_FILE 'DF'$ $        WRITE DELETE_FILE "$  MAIL" $      ENDIF $      GOSUB REPLACE_QUOTESpG $      WRITE DELETE_FILE "   SELECT ''FILE_FOLDER'/SUBJ=""''SUBJECT'"""2( $      WRITE DELETE_FILE "   DELETE/ALL"	 $    ELSEw $      GOTO READ_IT<
 $    ENDIF $  ENDIF $GOTO ACTION_LOOPt $DELETE_SUBJECTS:l $! $!  $! delete messages to be deleted $! $  CLOSE/NOLOG NEW_LIS $  DELETE 'NF'*m $  IF D .GT. 0 $  THENl" $    WRITE DELETE_FILE "     QUIT"  $    WRITE DELETE_FILE "$  EXIT" $    CLOSE/NOLOG DELETE_FILE $    @ 'DF'n $    DELETE 'DF' $  ENDIF& $  IF R .EQ. 0 THEN GOTO READ_LOOP_END $! $! $! read messages to be reado $! $  CLOSE/NOLOG READ_FILE $  OPEN/READ READ_FILE 'RF' 	 $  I = -1I $READ_LOOP:e+ $  READ/END=READ_LOOP_END READ_FILE SUBJECT  $  I = I + 1 $  K = R - I	 $  WSO ""i2 $  WSO "''I' of ''R' threads read; ''K' remaining"	 $  WSO ""o, $  SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(0,MAX_LENGTH,SUBJECT) $  GOSUB REPLACE_QUOTESgG $! not only the length, but also the allowed length has perhaps changed?' $  NEW_LENGTH = MAX_LENGTH + 2*REPLACEDe, $  SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(0,NEW_LENGTH,SUBJECT) $! make sure quotes are matchediF $! this assumes that a quoted string is at least three characters longC $! I will add more sophisticated code if a shorter string not just  . $! appears but actually causes me any problems; $  IF F$EXTRACT(NEW_LENGTH-1,1,SUBJECT) .EQS. QUOTE .AND. -o;       F$EXTRACT(NEW_LENGTH-4,1,SUBJECT) .NES. QUOTE THEN  -i1       SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(0,NEW_LENGTH-3,SUBJECT)t. $  WSO "SEL ''FILE_FOLDER'/SUB=""''SUBJECT'"""$ $  DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT SYS$COMMAND $  MAIL, $GOTO READ_LOOPt $READ_LOOP_END:s $  IF R .GT. 0 $  THENF $    CLOSE/NOLOG READ_FILE $    DELETE 'RF' $  ENDIF $  EXITg $! $! $! GOSUB $! $REPLACE_QUOTES: $  REPLACED = 0d
 $LOOP_QUOTES:  $  GRAVE = "`" $  LENGTH = F$LENGTH(SUBJECT)   $  LOC = F$LOCATE(QUOTE,SUBJECT) $  IF LOC .LT. LENGTHo $  THENn $  REPLACED = REPLACED + 1! $    SUBJECT[LOC,1] := "''GRAVE'"O $    GOTO LOOP_QUOTESn $  ELSE  $    GOTO INSERT_QUOTESG $  ENDIF $INSERT_QUOTES:l $  LENGTH = F$LENGTH(SUBJECT)o  $  LOC = F$LOCATE(GRAVE,SUBJECT) $  IF LOC .LT. LENGTH  $  THENy9 $    SUBJECT = F$EXTRACT(0,LOC,SUBJECT) + """""""""" + - i%      F$EXTRACT(LOC+1,LENGTH,SUBJECT) - $    GOTO INSERT_QUOTESa $  ELSE8 $    RETURN1 $  ENDIF  N ---------8<-------------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 12:31:31 +0200i* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>% Subject: Re: RRD46 tray won't stay ine* Message-ID: <2g3r83F3t8oaU1@uni-berlin.de>   Bob Koehler wrote:Y > In article <2fvfnjF2ng1dU1@uni-berlin.de>, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:n >  >>Peter Weaver wrote:  >>H >>>I'm pretty sure our ES40's would bump into the cabinet door if the CDI >>>tray tried to open on a dismount. AS800 machines have a cover over thesI >>>CD that would interfere with the tray opening unless someone was thereg# >>>to make sure the cover was open.c >>>S >>H >>The same is true of probably all the Alphas I have come across except   >>for the desktop style systems. >  > E >    It would work on many older Alphas, such as all the TurbochanneliG >    systems I've had (both desktop and rackmount), but I'd much rathert >    it doesn't. > H >    Someone may be smart enough to have there coffee in front of the CD/ >    drive on that desk instead of on the tray.e >   7 And we're back at the McDonald's coffee story again :-)o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:13:20 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>- Subject: SHO DEV suggestion 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECICEGKDDAA.tom@kednos.com>   > Like many of you I have quite a variety of disks. I would findA it convenient if SHOW DEV D would also give the total size of the<A drive as does, for example Tru64 with the very similar df commandt -bash-2.05b$ dftI Filesystem        512-blocks        Used   Available Capacity  Mounted ons@ root_domain#root      786432      172974      601440    23%    /  , the /FULL qualifer produces too much output. --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 4/23/2004   ------------------------------   Date: 7 May 2004 23:20:09 -0700h From: ckchiu@hotmail.com (Bill)t Subject: SHOW ROUTE = Message-ID: <a14deb10.0405072220.2860c2f2@posting.google.com>   C The TCPIP SHOW ROUTE command shows the routes with type AH, AN, DH,tD DN, PH and PN.  I know H is Host route, N is Network route, and P is@ Permanent route.  What do A and D mean, Active and Dynamic?  Any differences between A and D?   ------------------------------  * Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 08:30:14 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: SHOW ROUTEt$ Message-ID: <c7i5qm$2gp$2@online.de>  = In article <a14deb10.0405072220.2860c2f2@posting.google.com>,0" ckchiu@hotmail.com (Bill) writes:   E > The TCPIP SHOW ROUTE command shows the routes with type AH, AN, DH,OF > DN, PH and PN.  I know H is Host route, N is Network route, and P isB > Permanent route.  What do A and D mean, Active and Dynamic?  Any > differences between A and D?  6 TCPIP HELP SHOW ROUTE tells you what you need to know.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:16:16 +0100C9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com>t) Subject: Re: Trip down [core] memory laneL0 Message-ID: <c7i8h6$ose$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Karsten Nyblad wrote:iH > "Andrew Harrison" <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> wrote in message+ > news:c7frse$tl$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...m >  >>GreyCloud wrote: >>E >>>Is Sun in trouble now that they had to forge an alliance with M$??d >>: >>Have you forgotten that you lost that argument days ago. >  > N > Andrew, You never answered the question:  What did Sun buy from SCO?  I hopeN > you realize that SCO is seen as a bunch of leeches, and buying anything fromK > them is seen as close to either paying blackmailers or using blackmailerse > for personal gains.t >    IP  ? Sun has a UNIX platform that runs on x86 (Solaris x86), a majord8 deficiency of the OS was the lack of x86 device drivers.  ? SCO has a UNIX platform that runs on x86 which had a much widera range of device drivers.  8 Solaris x86 now has a much more complete set of drivers.  ? Sun signed the deal before SCO launched their case against IBM,v< though it would be foolish to claim that Sun didn't have any> idea that SCO would be pursuing or attempting to pursue people@ who they suspected of appropriating their IP, that was after all> the mandate of SCO Source which had been in existence for some9 time and which was only following the path or Intergraph.   < Ironically IBM, HP, SGI all continue to fund SCO they ave to< because of their UNIX licenses, HP have even conducted joint: marketing excercises with SCO since the case was launched.  > I say ironically because apart from the IP purchase Sun is the< only major vendor who doesn't have a commercial relationship	 with SCO.o       Regardse Andrew Harrisont > Karsten Nyblad! > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot como >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:22:23 +0100-9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com>t) Subject: Re: Trip down [core] memory lanen0 Message-ID: <c7i8sh$p02$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  + >  Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:o >    >  >>Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>F >>>In article <ookmc.6861$a47.4288@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>, 1 >>>Wesley Dunnahoo <wdunnahoo@mndspng.cm> writes:  >>>d >>>aF >>>>I started using VMS on a VAX 11/780 running VMS 3.something and I H >>>>remember a miraculous change in the directory format that went from 1 >>>>6.3 filenames.extentions to 29.29 characters.  >>>a >>>e >>>I# >>>   49.49, on ODS-2 with VMS 4.0.  >>>g >>: >>Odd you seem to have total recall about VMS versions you@ >>have used in the past and their capabilites but seem strangelyB >>reticent when it comes to revealing which UNIX OS's and versions: >>you were using when you apparently observed a variety of >>issues with the OS's.  >  > 6 >    I remember good stuff.  Crap just comes and goes. >   5 Sorry Bob not good enough, you have had ample time tot6 "remember" which versions of Solaris you have used and which you based your claims on.r  3 Given that this information is not forthcomming andH1 shows no sign of being so I would suggest that in"8 future you refrain from passing any comment on Solaris's; capabilites based on yuor "experience" I would also suggesta/ that all your previous claims are now in doubt.   9 Remember it is the "crap" or what you alledged to be crap': that you were perfectly prepared to "remember" a fact that9 shines an even more unflattering light on your last post.m   regardse Andrew Harrisoni   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 15:03:13 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>) Subject: Re: Trip down [core] memory laneh- Message-ID: <c7ilqr$17k2$1@news.cybercity.dk>n   Andrew Harrison wrote: > Karsten Nyblad wrote:bA >> "Andrew Harrison" <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> wrote in 4 >> message news:c7frse$tl$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >> >>> GreyCloud wrote: >>> G >>>> Is Sun in trouble now that they had to forge an alliance with M$??/ >>>d< >>> Have you forgotten that you lost that argument days ago. >> >>G >> Andrew, You never answered the question:  What did Sun buy from SCO?2A >> I hope you realize that SCO is seen as a bunch of leeches, andD> >> buying anything from them is seen as close to either paying9 >> blackmailers or using blackmailers for personal gains.n >> >M > IP > A > Sun has a UNIX platform that runs on x86 (Solaris x86), a majorh: > deficiency of the OS was the lack of x86 device drivers. >eA > SCO has a UNIX platform that runs on x86 which had a much widere > range of device drivers. >": > Solaris x86 now has a much more complete set of drivers. >qA > Sun signed the deal before SCO launched their case against IBM,n> > though it would be foolish to claim that Sun didn't have any@ > idea that SCO would be pursuing or attempting to pursue peopleB > who they suspected of appropriating their IP, that was after all@ > the mandate of SCO Source which had been in existence for some; > time and which was only following the path or Intergraph.  >e> > Ironically IBM, HP, SGI all continue to fund SCO they ave to> > because of their UNIX licenses, HP have even conducted joint< > marketing excercises with SCO since the case was launched. >s@ > I say ironically because apart from the IP purchase Sun is the> > only major vendor who doesn't have a commercial relationship > with SCO.  >l >   K That is an answer Andrew.  I may have missed it if you posted these detailsn previously.o  5 But what a bizarre set of realities it reveals, not ?b  
 Dr. Dweeb.   >a	 > Regardsn > Andrew Harrisone >> Karsten Nyblad " >> ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2004 06:10:29 -0600n- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i! Subject: Re: VMS news on news.coms3 Message-ID: <xBSP4m7VXHxV@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  \ In article <vVYmc.1431$BJ6.129064@attbi_s51>, "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net> writes: > Thought this was interesting:  > ; > http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-5208195.html?tag=nefd.hed   A To save others the trouble in learning the content, it is about as* VMS-on-Superdome demonstration in Germany.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:35:57 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n! Subject: Re: VMS news on news.comD, Message-ID: <sv6dnTYdlfnTbQHdRVn-vg@igs.net>  7 "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@NOSPAMarrl.net> wrote in messagea' news:vVYmc.1431$BJ6.129064@attbi_s51...i > Thought this was interesting:  >o; > http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-5208195.html?tag=nefd.hedf    I Not a bad article but it would have been better if the write *could* havefI also noted that HP was or and launched an advertising campaign to promoten? VMS as a far more secure alternative to unix/linux and windows.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 17:42:30 GMTd4 From: "Roert G. Schaffrath" <rschaffrath@yahoo.com>! Subject: Re: VMS news on news.comk% Message-ID: <409D1C10.3160@yahoo.com>r   Dave Gudewicz wrote: >  > Thought this was interesting:i > ; > http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-5208195.html?tag=nefd.hedf  C "When Compaq launched the first 64-bit Alpha processor in the earlys3 1990s, it was, at 200MHz, significantly faster thantF Intel's then top-of-the-range 66MHz Pentium. Intel's introduction of a7 successive product lines, starting with the Pentium and1> now the Itanium 2, has steadily eroded that performance lead."  8 Huh?  That was Digital Equipment Corporation not Compaq!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:26:19 +0100 9 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com>r2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised0 Message-ID: <c7i93t$p13$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  { > In article <409C32D0.821FED07@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:h >  >>Gary McCready wrote: >>D >>>I'm wondering what worth advertising would be if there is not theG >>>pre-sales technical support from HP to really push and configure the ! >>>correct OpenVMS based systems?d >>H >>Hence, I've been suggesting here that those of us with the inclinationJ >>form up a consortium to market and promote VMS. There's *GOTTA* be a wayI >>to do it, even with the limited (or most cases, non-existant) resourcesa >>available to most of us. >> >>: >>>As I understand it, HP is moving more and more to allowH >>>VAR's/Partners/anyone but them to support VMS sales. Which means thatG >>>they are no longer a true player in the VMS sales channel - just askcG >>>your favorite local OpenVMS savvy HP employee - if you can find one.S >>H >>Again, illustrates the need for someone to take this bull by the horns5 >>and make it dance to market's tune instead of hp's.r >  > L > Advertising is expensive.  While it might be possible to persuade some of L > what few  ISVs and resellers are still thoroughly committed to VMS to kickF > in for some ads, there aren't a lot of other deep pockets out there. >   : Getting your top VP's to include lavish details on OpenVMS5 in their strategy presentations is not expensive, how  about starting there.    Regardsn Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:56:08 GMT-L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised6 Message-ID: <00A31838.DBD15A65@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  l In article <c7i93t$p13$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> writes:+ >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:d >s| >> In article <409C32D0.821FED07@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes: >> l >>>Gary McCready wrote:a >>>hE >>>>I'm wondering what worth advertising would be if there is not thesH >>>>pre-sales technical support from HP to really push and configure the" >>>>correct OpenVMS based systems? >>> I >>>Hence, I've been suggesting here that those of us with the inclinationkK >>>form up a consortium to market and promote VMS. There's *GOTTA* be a way J >>>to do it, even with the limited (or most cases, non-existant) resources >>>available to most of us.- >>>- >>>a; >>>>As I understand it, HP is moving more and more to allowyI >>>>VAR's/Partners/anyone but them to support VMS sales. Which means thatnH >>>>they are no longer a true player in the VMS sales channel - just askH >>>>your favorite local OpenVMS savvy HP employee - if you can find one. >>>4I >>>Again, illustrates the need for someone to take this bull by the hornse6 >>>and make it dance to market's tune instead of hp's. >>   >> cM >> Advertising is expensive.  While it might be possible to persuade some of fM >> what few  ISVs and resellers are still thoroughly committed to VMS to kick G >> in for some ads, there aren't a lot of other deep pockets out there.b >>   >o; >Getting your top VP's to include lavish details on OpenVMSb6 >in their strategy presentations is not expensive, how >about starting there.  F Not sure whether you're just sniping or trying to make a constructive K suggestion.  However, the point is that whatever we've been doing so far - eG which certainly includes heroic efforts from various users - hasn't so u" far produced satisfactory results.  H So the question which we're discussing, I think, is how to get HP to do L anything.  The purpose of my post was to propose a strategy to do so which IL think more useful than just having a whip-round to buy ads for the product.  That's the part you snipped.   -- Alano   -- nO =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056tM  Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA   94025 O ===============================================================================r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 13:37:06 +0200F* From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised* Message-ID: <2g3v33F4308vU1@uni-berlin.de>   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > John Smith wrote:a > < >>"Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageN >>news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC149CCBD5@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. >>.. >>E >>>Ok, I have to ask...is ole John Smith even going to the boot camp?  >>J >>The answer, unfortunately is no. We are working to a tight deadline on aK >>prototype application that uses VMS clusters in an extremely high profile2M >>environment for a consortium of companies.  Our demo includes taking a fire-M >>ax to the cables (we like a little drama in our demos) and demonstrating toI@ >>them how VMS clusters can work in 24x7 environment even if the# >>connections/power/sites are lost.a >> >  >   > Now THAT would make a good ad. >   8 Can I, can I, can I be the one wielding the axe? Please?   :-)-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:59:58 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7ilks$17fg$1@news.cybercity.dk>m   David J. Dachtera wrote: > John Smith wrote:5 >>1 >> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in messageh6 >> news:NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEEPDDAA.tom@kednos.com... >>>  >>>o  >>>   -----Original Message-----; >>>   From: Alan E. Feldman [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com]t( >>>   Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:25 AM >>>   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comw8 >>>   Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised >>>  >>>a4 >>>   "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message. >>>   news:<Te6dnckIhf-SeAfdRVn-vA@igs.net>...: >>>   > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message >>>   > H >>>   news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3142FF@tayexc19.americas.cpqc >>>   orp.net... >>>   [...]@
 >>>   > John,n >>>   ><G >>>   > You likely already have this, but just in case you need missionlG >>>   critical > OpenVMS cluster (including multi-site) testimonials inu( >>>   the Financial > market, check out: >>>   >o0 >>>   > Commerzbank, multi-site, 911 testimonial >>>   >tJ >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/commerzbank/commerzbank.pdf >>>   >e. >>>   > Bank Austria, VMS V7.3-1, Alpha GS1280 >>>   >  >>>iH >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/bankaus.pdfG >>> > > International Securities Exchange (ISE), multi-site, VMS V7.3-1 ? >>> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/ise/ise.pdf >'C >>> "Sixteen of the world's exchanges run the OM Technology tradingL> >>> system - > and 15 of them run it on HP OpenVMS AlphaServerG >>> systems." > > Btw - drop me a note offline (or call me) if you needcB >>> any assistance > with your proposal. > > > > Kerry, check your >>> in-box. > > John >>>aG >>>   Hey! Let's all chip in and put some excerpts from these .pdf's asTC >>>   full page ads in some appropriate trade mag! Is it illegal toT' >>>   advertise someone else's product?  >>>e> >>> Well, in theory you need the owner's permission to use hisA >>> trademarks. but the question is what is the harm if you do itm >>> anyway.i >>G >> In HP's case the harm perceived by carly(tm) et al. will be that youVE >> are promoting a product they are trying to kill, thereby extendingh? >> the time it takes to kill it and making them commit funds toM, >> continue manufacturing and supporting it. > E > O.k. Let me see if I understand this: hp is going to complain if wenH > make money for them by increasing the orders they get (from us and our7 > partners) for their high-margin VMS-related products.  >b4 > Is something wrong with that or am I really crazy?   No.  See my previous post.  J Carley is a self proclaimed "visionary".  She has seen the future, and sheL alone will lead us towards it.  Visionaries have no need of *anything* whichK does not fit the vision (in our case Alpha, VMS, everything that was HP buth is now Agilent etc. etc)..  L In Carleys vision of the future for example - IBM cannot continue to exist.F The fact that IBM seems to be existing and growing does not affect her- vision or her own attachment to its veracity.-  
 Dr. Dweeb.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:54:08 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7il9t$16v0$1@news.cybercity.dk>.   Andrew Harrison wrote:, > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: >6C >> In article <409C32D0.821FED07@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J.r; >> Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:  >> >>> Gary McCready wrote: >>>eF >>>> I'm wondering what worth advertising would be if there is not theE >>>> pre-sales technical support from HP to really push and configurei' >>>> the correct OpenVMS based systems?h >>>h> >>> Hence, I've been suggesting here that those of us with theG >>> inclination form up a consortium to market and promote VMS. There'stD >>> *GOTTA* be a way to do it, even with the limited (or most cases,4 >>> non-existant) resources available to most of us. >>>  >>>e< >>>> As I understand it, HP is moving more and more to allowE >>>> VAR's/Partners/anyone but them to support VMS sales. Which means E >>>> that they are no longer a true player in the VMS sales channel - D >>>> just ask your favorite local OpenVMS savvy HP employee - if you >>>> can find one. >>>oD >>> Again, illustrates the need for someone to take this bull by the= >>> horns and make it dance to market's tune instead of hp's.- >> >>D >> Advertising is expensive.  While it might be possible to persuade
 >> some ofE >> what few  ISVs and resellers are still thoroughly committed to VMS 
 >> to kickG >> in for some ads, there aren't a lot of other deep pockets out there.n >> >M< > Getting your top VP's to include lavish details on OpenVMS7 > in their strategy presentations is not expensive, howf > about starting there.t >m  H Correct Andrew.  You do say some perceptive things when not indulging in your company funded polemic.  K And while I sympathise with the VMS flagwaving crowd here - and I am one of0G them - I do not see, and have not seen any indication by the current ormE previous owners of VMS to indulge in any such activity for close to a$9 decade.  Sadly, the contrary seems to have been the case.e  J Palmers declared strategy of killing VMS in favour of Windoze is in placeL and on track.  Sitting in the auditorium listening to GQ Bob (or should thatJ be Side-Show Bob) tell the assembled masses about the future being WindowsJ and the past being VMS still ranks as one of the seriously low points of a# professional life in the VMS world.   J Nothing we do or say in here or out there to our clients/customers currentJ or potential will alter the current state of affairs as VMS mind share hasL long since passed the point of no return.  The VMS boosters of the world areH dying, retiring, changing careers etc. etc. and being replaced by scriptH kiddies and windoze bigots and there is now no stopping the hordes. (See) other posts in this thread for examples).<  I The owners of VMS both current and past have recognised this and actively. promoted this state of affairs.c  = The die is cast, the dice thrown and other related metaphors.a  , This is the sad, but accurate state of play.  
 Dr. Dweeb. (or is that Dr. Doom today :-))l  	 > Regardst > Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 15:20:52 GMTR4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised0 Message-ID: <409CFAE5.A150C3C1@blueyonder.co.uk>   warren sander wrote: > J > sounds like the crash cluster demos we did a DECworld 87, 88, 90, and 92 > (getting better each time) > H > we had a box with all the cables etc running through where folks could% > 'press a button' that cut the cableoC > and the application just kept going. You could cut the following:t >  > 1) CI cables (A or B)o > 2) Power to processora > 3) DIsk Cablea > 4) Network Cable > H > If we cut stuff in the correct order we could take a 4x6000,4xHSC,8xSA3 > cluster down to 1 6000, 1 HSC with only A cables, L > 1 SA with 1 RA drive and the application was still going. Had a nice video5 > of it also and a before/after video of thunderstormo+ > knocking out the cluster. That was in 87.e > 	 > -warrenc  aG So the modern version would use current technology (Itanium/Alpha) withsN web enabled access to those "buttons" and a disaster tolerant app plus webcamsO on the hardware so you could see the lights go off when you yank the power etc.+   :-)  -- r tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:39:44 -0500d@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised6 Message-ID: <409CFF40.DB548F2B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > [snip]I > So the question which we're discussing, I think, is how to get HP to do  > anything..  F Actually, I think *THAT* is the part we're consistently getting wrong.  @ *WE* (interpret taht as you will) are not going to "get hp to do
 anything".  F It's entirely up to us. Hp has demonstrated unmistakably that, forgive) the vernacular, they ain't gonna do shit.-  G In the motivational world, we have the saying: "If it is to be, it's up_C to me". By extension, then, it's up to us: individually to agree to G co-operate in one all-or-nothing effort to save our businesses, careersOF etc., or to admit defeat and let hp slowly choke VMS to death (not far> from it now), and collectively to band togther to take action.  D Grand-scale advertising can be costly, yes (as was posted at anotherH point in this thread or another - I forget). However, if we (those of usB who have the option) each take an ad to the local cable vendor forG airing locally, that creates a potential nation(world?)-wide reach at a E modicum of cost and effort. That will open many "enabling" doors thatAF will make it at least possible to schmooze, convince, finagle, cajole,G finesse, etc. others down the road to carry promo.'s (print, electonic,(H etc.) that will cause business types to look up their local VMS resellerH and talk about doing some business. (Don't go there just yet - I'm still working that out in head.)  @ True, even hp is working against us at this point. I believe theC increase in $$$ can sway them toward, if not co-operation, at leastoC neutrality: they won't care if we're out here trying sell what they . wanna kill as long as the $$$ keep rolling in.  C ...but yes, it's *ENTIRELY* up to *US*. Hp has made it unmistakablyEC clear that they ain't gonna do shit (again, pardon the vernacular).E   --   David J. DachteraI dba DJE SystemsR http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/L   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:37:10 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>I2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised, Message-ID: <lZqdnYKdT4E7YwHdRVn-gw@igs.net>  H ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>A wrote in message news:00A31838.DBD15A65@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...fB > In article <c7i93t$p13$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison+ <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> writes:_- > >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  > >EE > >> In article <409C32D0.821FED07@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J."8 Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes: > >> > >>>Gary McCready wrote:O > >>> G > >>>>I'm wondering what worth advertising would be if there is not theSJ > >>>>pre-sales technical support from HP to really push and configure the$ > >>>>correct OpenVMS based systems? > >>>CK > >>>Hence, I've been suggesting here that those of us with the inclination"I > >>>form up a consortium to market and promote VMS. There's *GOTTA* be a! waysL > >>>to do it, even with the limited (or most cases, non-existant) resources > >>>available to most of us.E > >>>) > >>> = > >>>>As I understand it, HP is moving more and more to allowrK > >>>>VAR's/Partners/anyone but them to support VMS sales. Which means thatiJ > >>>>they are no longer a true player in the VMS sales channel - just askJ > >>>>your favorite local OpenVMS savvy HP employee - if you can find one. > >>> K > >>>Again, illustrates the need for someone to take this bull by the hornsI8 > >>>and make it dance to market's tune instead of hp's. > >> > >>K > >> Advertising is expensive.  While it might be possible to persuade some  ofJ > >> what few  ISVs and resellers are still thoroughly committed to VMS to kickI > >> in for some ads, there aren't a lot of other deep pockets out there.I > >> > >E= > >Getting your top VP's to include lavish details on OpenVMSF8 > >in their strategy presentations is not expensive, how > >about starting there. > G > Not sure whether you're just sniping or trying to make a constructivedL > suggestion.  However, the point is that whatever we've been doing so far -H > which certainly includes heroic efforts from various users - hasn't so$ > far produced satisfactory results.  K Andrew's point cuts both ways. It costs nothing for HP execs to heap praiseGJ on OpenVMS. The amount of effort  it takes to print something or add a fewL words of VMS praise to a keynote Comdex address on a Powerpoint presentation is zero.  I If HP division managers and exec's aren't actively promoting OpenVMS thenRF it's either due to a culture of fear within HP or deliberate corporateL policy. To say that all individuals within HP are incompetent or impotent inJ this regard is unfair, but there certainly is ample evidence to succumb to the temptation to do so.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 10:41:26 -0500'@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised6 Message-ID: <409CFFA6.E769293C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: >  > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > John Smith wrote:C > >>3 > >> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in messageQ8 > >> news:NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEEPDDAA.tom@kednos.com... > >>>h > >>>s" > >>>   -----Original Message-----= > >>>   From: Alan E. Feldman [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] * > >>>   Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:25 AM! > >>>   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml: > >>>   Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised > >>>B > >>>S6 > >>>   "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message0 > >>>   news:<Te6dnckIhf-SeAfdRVn-vA@igs.net>...< > >>>   > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message	 > >>>   > J > >>>   news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3142FF@tayexc19.americas.cpqc > >>>   orp.net...
 > >>>   [...]= > >>>   > John,0	 > >>>   >"I > >>>   > You likely already have this, but just in case you need mission+I > >>>   critical > OpenVMS cluster (including multi-site) testimonials in/* > >>>   the Financial > market, check out:	 > >>>   >S2 > >>>   > Commerzbank, multi-site, 911 testimonial	 > >>>   >DL > >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/commerzbank/commerzbank.pdf	 > >>>   >E0 > >>>   > Bank Austria, VMS V7.3-1, Alpha GS1280	 > >>>   >" > >>> J > >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/bankaus.pdfI > >>> > > International Securities Exchange (ISE), multi-site, VMS V7.3-1"A > >>> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/ise/ise.pdf >IE > >>> "Sixteen of the world's exchanges run the OM Technology trading @ > >>> system - > and 15 of them run it on HP OpenVMS AlphaServerI > >>> systems." > > Btw - drop me a note offline (or call me) if you need D > >>> any assistance > with your proposal. > > > > Kerry, check your > >>> in-box. > > John > >>>_I > >>>   Hey! Let's all chip in and put some excerpts from these .pdf's asEE > >>>   full page ads in some appropriate trade mag! Is it illegal toE) > >>>   advertise someone else's product?1 > >>>=@ > >>> Well, in theory you need the owner's permission to use hisC > >>> trademarks. but the question is what is the harm if you do itS
 > >>> anyway.E > >>I > >> In HP's case the harm perceived by carly(tm) et al. will be that youNG > >> are promoting a product they are trying to kill, thereby extending,A > >> the time it takes to kill it and making them commit funds toq. > >> continue manufacturing and supporting it. > >wG > > O.k. Let me see if I understand this: hp is going to complain if wesJ > > make money for them by increasing the orders they get (from us and our9 > > partners) for their high-margin VMS-related products.E > >N6 > > Is something wrong with that or am I really crazy? >  > No.  See my previous post. > L > Carley is a self proclaimed "visionary".  She has seen the future, and sheN > alone will lead us towards it.  Visionaries have no need of *anything* whichM > does not fit the vision (in our case Alpha, VMS, everything that was HP butE > is now Agilent etc. etc).U > N > In Carleys vision of the future for example - IBM cannot continue to exist.H > The fact that IBM seems to be existing and growing does not affect her/ > vision or her own attachment to its veracity.E  + Is that not the definition of "delusional"?F   -- R David J. DachteraT dba DJE SystemsE http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/L   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:39:21 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised, Message-ID: <vc2dnTp1tqu0YgHdRVn-vA@igs.net>  K "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message 0 news:409C3395.1571D838@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net... > John Smith wrote:' > >y2 > > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message7 > > news:NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIKEEPDDAA.tom@kednos.com...i > > >P > > >r" > > >   -----Original Message-----= > > >   From: Alan E. Feldman [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] * > > >   Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:25 AM! > > >   To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com.: > > >   Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised > > >w > > > 6 > > >   "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message0 > > >   news:<Te6dnckIhf-SeAfdRVn-vA@igs.net>...< > > >   > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message	 > > >   > J > > >   news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3142FF@tayexc19.americas.cpqc > > >   orp.net...
 > > >   [...]v > > >   > John,o	 > > >   >oI > > >   > You likely already have this, but just in case you need mission  > > criticalD > > >   > OpenVMS cluster (including multi-site) testimonials in the	 Financiale > > >   > market, check out:	 > > >   >c2 > > >   > Commerzbank, multi-site, 911 testimonial	 > > >   >eK > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/commerzbank/commerzbank.pdfc	 > > >   >s0 > > >   > Bank Austria, VMS V7.3-1, Alpha GS1280	 > > >   >nD http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/Bank-Austria/bankaus.pdf	 > > >   >nI > > >   > International Securities Exchange (ISE), multi-site, VMS V7.3-1,A > > >   > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/ise/ise.pdfdI > > >   > "Sixteen of the world's exchanges run the OM Technology tradingo > > system -C > > >   > and 15 of them run it on HP OpenVMS AlphaServer systems."u	 > > >   >uC > > >   > Btw - drop me a note offline (or call me) if you need anyh
 assistance > > >   > with your proposal.g	 > > >   >.	 > > >   >6	 > > >   >r# > > >   > Kerry, check your in-box./	 > > >   >- > > >   > John > > >-I > > >   Hey! Let's all chip in and put some excerpts from these .pdf's asu fullJ > > >   page ads in some appropriate trade mag! Is it illegal to advertise > > >   someone else's product?s > > >eL > > > Well, in theory you need the owner's permission to use his trademarks.? > > > but the question is what is the harm if you do it anyway.c > >aL > > In HP's case the harm perceived by carly(tm) et al. will be that you areK > > promoting a product they are trying to kill, thereby extending the timeT itK > > takes to kill it and making them commit funds to continue manufacturinge and- > > supporting it. >eJ > O.k. Let me see if I understand this: hp is going to complain if we makeC > money for them by increasing the orders they get (from us and ours7 > partners) for their high-margin VMS-related products.n >H4 > Is something wrong with that or am I really crazy?    G There's nothing wrong with your thinking. What is seriously wrong is HPwJ management thinking - these people ought to be locked up and heavily dosed2 with anti-psychotropic drugs for a very long time.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.255 ************************