1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 09 May 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 257       Contents: another DFO question# CXX installation and GBLPAGES (VAX) ' Re: CXX installation and GBLPAGES (VAX) 8 Re: DCLER (DCL Enhancement Request) for SET PROMPT: Time: Re: DEC/Compaq/HP C RTL v. multi-dot file/directory names? Re: Disaster Recovery  Free to a good home J Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMSP RE: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS OpenV Re: more DFO questions Re: more DFO questions News of Caroline Singleton! Oracle DB use vote at HP Advocacy  Re: OT: McDonald's coffee again  Re: OT: McDonald's coffee again 2 problem with installation from layered-products CD6 Re: problem with installation from layered-products CD) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 15:38:11 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: another DFO question $ Message-ID: <c7lj93$55m$1@online.de>   Two questions, perhaps related.   I Is there a way, with DEFRAGMENT MONITOR, for example, to estimate when a  & defragmentation process will complete?  @ What is the Countdown parameter displayed by DEFRAGMENT MONITOR?  G Another question: Presumably, there is no danger in aborting a running  I script.  If it is then restarted, will the time to completion be more or  I less the time which the script had remaining before being aborted, or is  H there a significant overhead in restarting, meaning that the total time  would be greater?    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 14:17:35 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply), Subject: CXX installation and GBLPAGES (VAX)$ Message-ID: <c7lehv$qtg$1@online.de>  % hoff@hp.nospam (HoffHoffman) writes:     >   OK, did some digging.    >   >   It's not disk fragmentation. > ; >   It's a conflict between the installations of C and C++.  >  >   Here's a workaround: > G >     1: Extract COMPLEX from SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB, and save it.  > R >       libr/extract=complex/out=sys$scratch:complex.h SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB > 8 >     2: Remove COMPLEX from SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB > 7 >       libr/delete=complex SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB  >  >     3: Install Compaq C++   ? I got this far, almost to the end of the installation, then it  H complained about too few global pages.  GBLPAGES is at 62000 now (value H set by AUTOGEN; I have never set it myself) with a minimum of 15000 and J a maximum of 4194176 pages, according to SYSMAN.  This is a VAX 4000-100A 2 with 64 MB memory running a fully patched VMS 7.3.  B Since it's not a dynamic parameter, I have to reboot if I increaseD GBLPAGES.  Since this node hosts some members of some shadow sets, IG have to do a cluster reboot or live with shadow copies.  I would prefer @ the former, since I have to do a cluster reboot anyway for other	 reasons.    / What would be a good value to try for GBLPAGES?   B It would be nice if the installation procedure could check if the H relevant system parameters have values which are OK before starting the B installation!  Even better, have an option to PRODUCT INSTALL and E VMSINSTAL which would check these without doing anything else before  E installing (assuming that one can't hard-code the information, which  ! would be even better, of course).   I >     4: Reinsert the saved COMPLEX back into SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB  > E >       libr/insert SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB sys$scratch:complex.h    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 16:38:57 +0200 * From: Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net>0 Subject: Re: CXX installation and GBLPAGES (VAX)* Message-ID: <2g6u42F55lqgU1@uni-berlin.de>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: ' > hoff@hp.nospam (HoffHoffman) writes:   >  >  >>  OK, did some digging.    >>  >>  It's not disk fragmentation. >>; >>  It's a conflict between the installations of C and C++.  >> >>  Here's a workaround: >>G >>    1: Extract COMPLEX from SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB, and save it.  >>R >>      libr/extract=complex/out=sys$scratch:complex.h SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB >>8 >>    2: Remove COMPLEX from SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB >>7 >>      libr/delete=complex SYS$LIBRARY:DECC$RTLDEF.TLB  >> >>    3: Install Compaq C++  >  > A > I got this far, almost to the end of the installation, then it  J > complained about too few global pages.  GBLPAGES is at 62000 now (value J > set by AUTOGEN; I have never set it myself) with a minimum of 15000 and L > a maximum of 4194176 pages, according to SYSMAN.  This is a VAX 4000-100A 4 > with 64 MB memory running a fully patched VMS 7.3. >   G On the MicroVAX 3100 I am looking at, with 40MB RAM, I see GBLPAGES at   100,000.  D > Since it's not a dynamic parameter, I have to reboot if I increaseF > GBLPAGES.  Since this node hosts some members of some shadow sets, II > have to do a cluster reboot or live with shadow copies.  I would prefer B > the former, since I have to do a cluster reboot anyway for other > reasons.   > 1 > What would be a good value to try for GBLPAGES?  >   E Excess GBLPAGES doesn't really carry much overhead, so I have always  A been generous with it to avoid reboots. Since either 7.1 or 7.2,  # GBLPAGES has been dynamic on Alpha.   D > It would be nice if the installation procedure could check if the J > relevant system parameters have values which are OK before starting the D > installation!  Even better, have an option to PRODUCT INSTALL and G > VMSINSTAL which would check these without doing anything else before  G > installing (assuming that one can't hard-code the information, which  # > would be even better, of course).  >   F Best to read the installation guide and release notes to see what the  global page requirements are.   3 These commands help in deciding if you have enough:   , $ write sys$output f$getsyi("free_gblsects") 73, $ write sys$output f$getsyi("free_gblpages") 17756  $    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 11:02:16 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>A Subject: Re: DCLER (DCL Enhancement Request) for SET PROMPT: Time 6 Message-ID: <409E5608.A14E4BE5@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > D > Any chance of having a time option added to SET PROMPT? Perhaps itH > could be added F$FAO style. Note: The time would be static -- it would: > just be the time that the prompt appeared on the screen.  $ Ala SET PREFIX, only for the prompt.  E Seems a simple enough change, though a lot of folks have been looking @ for a more UN*X-ly prompt showing the current working directory.  ! Can't please everyone, I guess...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 08:43:09 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.orgC Subject: Re: DEC/Compaq/HP C RTL v. multi-dot file/directory names? ) Message-ID: <04050908430915@antinode.org>   5 From: "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNosp@Mcompaq.com>   M > I'm not sure what documentation you are seeing this stuff in, but, multiple J > dots is not a problem as far as I can tell, if you set the right feature# > switch (decc$filename_unix_only):   <    I believe that it was the CD-ROM docs for the C compiler.   0 > Get the latest ACRTL ECO if you dont' already.  G    I also see that I had downloaded "DEC AXPVMS VMS731_ACRTL V3.0", but E the last one I had _installed_ was V1.0, so I'm a bit more up-to-date  now.  ) > CRTL_$ define decc$filename_unix_only 1   F    That does make a difference.  I still have a bit of research to do,D as "alp.antinode.org/wget/wget-1_5_3h_vms/WGET-1_5_3H_VMS.ZIP;1" now comes out asE "[.alp^.antinode^.org.wget.wget-1_5_3h_vms]WGET-1_5_3H_VMS.ZIP^;1;1", C but it's an improvement.  DECC$EFS_CHARSET looks promising, though.    > C RTL Project Leader  @    Sounds like a tough job to me.  Trying to smoosh together the@ features of these different file systems looks like a nightmare.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 10:55:05 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Disaster Recovery0 Message-ID: <00A3191B.0DCF0B62@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEGHDDAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: 8 >I normally throw out the monthly Costco Connection Mag,E >but I noticed Carly's smiling face on the cover so I decided to read F >the interview.  Of course the whole interview, as you may preceive isI >orientated towards small to medium business needs.  In any event, in one I >response she says, "... Second, we have the technology that spans every  G >set of requirements that small and medium businesses could want - from K >imaging and printing solutions to disaster recovery to desktop solutions."  > , >So I am curious, is she thinking about VMS?  F Don't know but not a single mention of it in the first part.  Part two> is likely to by just as barren in the VMS mention department.   E Because Costco is just a PeeCee outlet anyway and HP is only a PeeCee F munufacturer which happens to make printers, I doubt the world will be$ educated as to the existence of VMS.   --  B http://www.legacy-2000.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system securityC                             solutions that others only claim to be.  --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 11:28:28 -1300 # From: trevor <nospam@nospam.please>  Subject: Free to a good home- Message-ID: <409E15DC.68A88D36@nospam.please>   H I have two working Micro VAX 3400's free to a good (Hobbyist) home.  I'm in Essex in the UK.   , Contact me at Trev_129REMOVE@REMOVEyahoo.com   Trev.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 16:50:51 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) S Subject: Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS L Message-ID: <rdeininger-0905041254060001@user-uinj4h4.dialup.mindspring.com>  I In article <d2cea5009f16b1a1c60301486a82d044@news.teranews.com>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    ...   E >One article I read  had one HP rep state that VMS on IA64 might come J >(commercially) in 2005 rather than late 2004.   This opens up interesting! >possibilities for speculation...  > H >Since we trust the VMS engineers, lets rule out VMS engineering delays.  H That would be silly.  If V8.2 does slip from late 2004 to early 2005, it& will be due to ... engineering delays.  N >The delay in the release might be due to lack of applications being ready. ItM >wouldn't be smart to commercially launch an OS where there are less than 100 @ >applications actually ready. (or whatever the number might be). > M >Or, perhaps HP knows that Intel will cancel IA64 before 2005, so by delaying J >the launch of VMS on IA64, they could simply abort it before they have to8 >honour any 5 year support commitments on that platform.  - Would that count as an "engineering delay"?     N >It could also be that launching VMS on an inferior platform compared to AlphaL >would remove a lot from the launch and just point to the huge mistake sinceJ >even a dead Alpha still outperforms that IA64 thing. Perhaps HP expects aM >faster version of IA64 by early 2005 and would want to make sure they launch ; >with that version so that VMS on IA64 doesn't look so bad.   A Intel seems to be launching improved Itanium CPUs every couple of J quarters.  Of course HP expects that they will be faster in 2005 than they are now.  E In 2005, Alpha will certainly continue to outperform Itanium for some H workloads.  VMS customers with those workloads will probably continue to0 buy Alphaservers when they need new VMS systems.  E On the other hand, if the price on Itanium servers is very attractive D compared to AlphaServers, some customers will start to switch beforeH Itanium catches up in performance.  In particular, VMS on low-end (can II say entry-level?) Itaniums like rx1600 will probably be cheap compared to G low-end AlphaServers like DS15.  As long as both platforms have VMS and H "mainstream" IO support like SCSI, LAN, and FibreChannel, most customersE won't care about the HW details.  But they will care about the price.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:27:16 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> Y Subject: RE: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS OpenV R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB314408@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20  > Sent: May 8, 2004 5:44 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com B > Subject: Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the=20' > answer may be OpenVMS OpenVMS OpenVMS  >=20" > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:; > > My prediction: VMS will die with/cause-of ITANIC and=20  > earlier than we fear.  >=208 > I hope that in this probably long process, HP stops=20 > developping VMS on IA64 B > and continues a few versions on Alpha since that is where the=20 > demand wouldA > still be. That would send such a strong message to the likes=20  > of Curly and Carly.  >=20F > One article I read  had one HP rep state that VMS on IA64 might comeB > (commercially) in 2005 rather than late 2004.   This opens up=20
 > interesting " > possibilities for speculation... >=208 > Since we trust the VMS engineers, lets rule out VMS=20 > engineering delays.  >=20B > The delay in the release might be due to lack of applications=20 > being ready. It ? > wouldn't be smart to commercially launch an OS where there=20  > are less than 100 A > applications actually ready. (or whatever the number might be).  >=20B > Or, perhaps HP knows that Intel will cancel IA64 before 2005,=20 > so by delayingA > the launch of VMS on IA64, they could simply abort it before=20  > they have to9 > honour any 5 year support commitments on that platform.  >=20@ > It could also be that launching VMS on an inferior platform=20 > compared to Alpha B > would remove a lot from the launch and just point to the huge=20 > mistake since A > even a dead Alpha still outperforms that IA64 thing. Perhaps=20  > HP expects a@ > faster version of IA64 by early 2005 and would want to make=20 > sure they launch< > with that version so that VMS on IA64 doesn't look so bad. >=20   JF,   F As far as I know, the article that talked about OpenVMS/IPF coming out@ in 2005 was with respect to officially supporting Superdomes.=20  G My understanding is that current plans still have V8.2 with support for G mid range IPF servers being released for Customers sometime in Q4 later 
 this year.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  Email: kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom . (remove the DOT's and AT for email address)=20   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:18:50 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: more DFO questions $ Message-ID: <c7lb3p$f2d$1@online.de>  E In article <newscache$7e0fxh$iab$1@news.sil.at>, peter@langstoeger.at $ (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:   y > In article <c7itq3$eka$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: E > >I have DF0 2.6 on all nodes (2 VAX and 1 ALPHA).  Soon, I plan to   > >install 2.7.  >  > V2.8 is current.   When did it come out?   H > >               Things work fine on the VAXen, but on the ALPHA I get: > > . > >Disk File Optimizer for OpenVMS DFG ECOV2.6E > >Copyright  Compaq Computer Corp. 1991,2001.   All rights reserved H > >%DFG-F-IEDBDATA, logically inconsistent data in relation SCRIPT_NAMES > C > Yup. I had a lot of such problems with the older versions of DFG.  > K > >According to the message, I should submit an SPR.  In my case, however,  > > >the inconsistency was probably caused by me fiddling about. > 6 > Could be as well. But in my case, it was DFG itself. > D > >What's the easiest way to get a "clean start", preferably withoutL > >de-installing DFO?  Can I delete some files in DFG$DATABASE and count on I > >them being recreated, properly?  Related to that, presumably it would  I > >make sense to move DFG$DATABASE to a non-system disk (such as the one  J > >where I have SYSUAF.DAT and so on, with corresponding logicals defined J > >in SYLOGICALS.COM).  In that case, are there any files I need to copy, 6 > >or can I just count on them being created properly? > ' > $ RENAME DFG$DATABASE:*.DAT *.CORRUPT  > $ MCR DFG$CREATE_DATABASE  > $ MCR DFG$INIT_DATABASE   > $ DEFRAGMENT VOLUME/SCRIPT=... >  > or > 4 > $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC DFG$DATABASE newdisk:[newdir] > $ MCR DFG$CREATE_DATABASE  > $ MCR DFG$INIT_DATABASE $ > $ CREATE DFG$DATABASE:DFG$MAIL.DIS > SYSTEM > ^Z  > $ DEFRAGMENT VOLUME/SCRIPT=...  B OK, this seems to work---almost.  SYS$STARTUP:DFG$STARTUP defines C logicals and starts the scheduler.  There seems to be no supported  I mechanism for defining these logicals to something else.  If one defines  D them after the startup, then one has to manually stop and start the & scheduler.  Or am I missing something?   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 17:32:56 +0000 (UTC)6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: more DFO questions 0 Message-ID: <newscache$1ajgxh$wyr$1@news.sil.at>  w In article <c7lb3p$f2d$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: F >In article <newscache$7e0fxh$iab$1@news.sil.at>, peter@langstoeger.at% >(Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:   > z >> In article <c7itq3$eka$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:F >> >I have DF0 2.6 on all nodes (2 VAX and 1 ALPHA).  Soon, I plan to  >> >install 2.7.   >>   >> V2.8 is current.  >  >When did it come out?  = About Oct/Nov 2003. After being in fieldtest for some months. - It is said to be required for OpenVMS V7.3-2.  And before there was V2.7 ECO1.  V2.7 was umpteen months ago...  I >> >               Things work fine on the VAXen, but on the ALPHA I get:  >> >/ >> >Disk File Optimizer for OpenVMS DFG ECOV2.6 F >> >Copyright  Compaq Computer Corp. 1991,2001.   All rights reservedI >> >%DFG-F-IEDBDATA, logically inconsistent data in relation SCRIPT_NAMES  >>  D >> Yup. I had a lot of such problems with the older versions of DFG. >>  L >> >According to the message, I should submit an SPR.  In my case, however, ? >> >the inconsistency was probably caused by me fiddling about.  >>  7 >> Could be as well. But in my case, it was DFG itself.  >>  E >> >What's the easiest way to get a "clean start", preferably without M >> >de-installing DFO?  Can I delete some files in DFG$DATABASE and count on  J >> >them being recreated, properly?  Related to that, presumably it would J >> >make sense to move DFG$DATABASE to a non-system disk (such as the one K >> >where I have SYSUAF.DAT and so on, with corresponding logicals defined  K >> >in SYLOGICALS.COM).  In that case, are there any files I need to copy,  7 >> >or can I just count on them being created properly?  >>  ( >> $ RENAME DFG$DATABASE:*.DAT *.CORRUPT >> $ MCR DFG$CREATE_DATABASE >> $ MCR DFG$INIT_DATABASE! >> $ DEFRAGMENT VOLUME/SCRIPT=...  >>   >> or  >>  5 >> $ DEFINE/SYSTEM/EXEC DFG$DATABASE newdisk:[newdir]  >> $ MCR DFG$CREATE_DATABASE >> $ MCR DFG$INIT_DATABASE% >> $ CREATE DFG$DATABASE:DFG$MAIL.DIS 	 >> SYSTEM  >> ^Z ! >> $ DEFRAGMENT VOLUME/SCRIPT=...  > C >OK, this seems to work---almost.  SYS$STARTUP:DFG$STARTUP defines  D >logicals and starts the scheduler.  There seems to be no supported J >mechanism for defining these logicals to something else.  If one defines E >them after the startup, then one has to manually stop and start the  ' >scheduler.  Or am I missing something?    No, you're right. G Change SYS$STARTUP:DFG$STARTUP.COM or some kind of force DEC/CPQ/HPQ to H honor previous logical definitions (in SYLOGICALS.COM) with DFG$STARTUP.   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 09:19:53 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> # Subject: News of Caroline Singleton @ Message-ID: <8e95b2f80fbaacb851d9029a77d03835@news.teranews.com>   X-No-archive: YES   K For many years, Caroline Singleton had been involved with VMS and DECUS and H has been instrumental in helping build the DECUS Canada chapter. She had touched many people.  L If you have known her, please send an email to caroinfo at vaxination.ca youZ will get an autoreply with more details and a point of contact for further communications.  @ For privacy reasons, I do not wish to provide more details here.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:19:30 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>* Subject: Oracle DB use vote at HP Advocacy- Message-ID: <c7kpim$179h$1@news.cybercity.dk>    Hi,   * This nay interest sites using DBMS on VMS.   http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/   Current tally:  H In your OpenVMS environment, what combination of Oracle products are you running?  : Oracle Database Only (eg: 7, 8, 8i, 9i, 10g, etc.) --> 16% Oracle RDB Only --> 42% + Both Oracle Database and Oracle RDB --> 19% ' Other Oracle products not listed --> 4% ' Not running any Oracle products --> 20%   
 145 votes.  	 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------   Date: 9 May 2004 06:18:52 GMT 2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>( Subject: Re: OT: McDonald's coffee again? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-cP7j6g1KMOdR@dave2_os2.home.ours>   F On Fri, 7 May 2004 07:24:56 UTC, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan' Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote:    M > That would be why the person _pulled over_ to put in sugar and cream.  The  , > spillage was not while the car was moving.   Hm, thanks Alan F                                  I had not heard that bit before. More research _is_ required.   F In Germany, the McDonald's coffee comes in paper cups. I've never got F any at a drive-in tho' I usually get out of the car and go in the shop# (restaurant is hardly appropriate).    --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:56:59 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>( Subject: Re: OT: McDonald's coffee again- Message-ID: <c7lgrp$24hu$1@news.cybercity.dk>    Dave Weatherall wrote:H > On Fri, 7 May 2004 07:24:56 UTC, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan) > Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote:  > A >> That would be why the person _pulled over_ to put in sugar and 9 >> cream.  The spillage was not while the car was moving.  >  > Hm, thanks Alan H >                                  I had not heard that bit before. More > research _is_ required.  > G > In Germany, the McDonald's coffee comes in paper cups. I've never got H > any at a drive-in tho' I usually get out of the car and go in the shop% > (restaurant is hardly appropriate).   A They actually have knives and forks available, which I think is a C prerequisite for being able to call the establishment a restaurant.   	 Dr. Dweeb    ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:04:22 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply); Subject: problem with installation from layered-products CD $ Message-ID: <c7lkq5$885$1@online.de>  I I am trying to install DECwindows 1.2-6 on a system with 1.2-5 current.   D The CD is in a drive on another node in the cluster.  After PRODUCT D INSTALL asks me if I want to continue, the process just hangs.  The E current image is TYPE, and SHOW PROCESS/CONTINUOUS shows no progress.     The CD drive seems OK otherwise.  > Even if there is some problem---which I guess there is at someD level---then I wouldn't expect it to occur when TYPE is the current  image.   ------------------------------  * Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 16:08:41 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)? Subject: Re: problem with installation from layered-products CD $ Message-ID: <c7ll28$885$2@online.de>  D In article <c7lkq5$885$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de3 (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:    K > I am trying to install DECwindows 1.2-6 on a system with 1.2-5 current.   F > The CD is in a drive on another node in the cluster.  After PRODUCT F > INSTALL asks me if I want to continue, the process just hangs.  The G > current image is TYPE, and SHOW PROCESS/CONTINUOUS shows no progress.  > " > The CD drive seems OK otherwise. > @ > Even if there is some problem---which I guess there is at someF > level---then I wouldn't expect it to occur when TYPE is the current  > image.  A I've successfully installed other products from that CD, but not  E DECwindows since the other VAX node in the cluster (the one with the  F physical connection to the drive) already has 1.2-6 (installed during  the install of VMS 7.3 on it).   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:13:48 +0200  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7kp8h$170q$1@news.cybercity.dk>    JF Mezei wrote: , > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:G >> third-party advertising of an OS that HP isn't wholeheartedly behind C >> is that people who do due diligence before going into an OS that C >> they've never heard of except through an ad on cable access will C >> just find out that HP isn't wholeheartedly behind it and may not  >> even let them order it. > G > Correct. However, 3rd party advertising of VMS will achieve 2 things:  > 5 > 1-prolong VMS' life by reducing the attrition rate. 9 > 2-force HP to make a clear statement on VMS either way.  > F >> third parties do that would make it make sense for new customers toG >> buy in?  HP has to price it affordably, HP has to make it orderable, + >> or advertising campaigns are for naught.  > G > The challenge is to convince HP to give VMS a REAL chance. Compaq saw F > the potential during the short live "renaissance", but it refused toD > let it continue because it conflicted with its Microsoft and Intel > commitments. > F > However, HP has lately begun to gain some idependance from Intel andB > Microsoft by adopting some AMD chips and selling Linux desktops.D > Perhaps there is an opening here for HP to push another non-WintelE > solution by pushing VMS, especially because it is not the target of 3 > so many viruses and still has leading clustering.  >   I Explain to me how this might fit into Carleys vision ?  The answer is it L doesnt, and for her prophecy to succeed, technologies outside her view need2 to be not only no seen, but to disappear entirely.  	 Dr. Dweeb    > E >> read, and thus attempt to encourage/shame HP upper management into 2 >> promoting what could be their flagship product. > ; > At this point in time, the quickest way would be to reach F > shareholders and shame HP management and force HP management to take= > VMS seriously and fully leverage its potential for profits.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 09:22:34 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised@ Message-ID: <6287e1c0a009ef5a157d4c6e751a31cd@news.teranews.com>   "Dr. Dweeb" wrote:K > Explain to me how this might fit into Carleys vision ?  The answer is it N > doesnt, and for her prophecy to succeed, technologies outside her view need4 > to be not only no seen, but to disappear entirely.    ? Carly doesn't have a vision. She jumps from buzzword-du-jour to B buzzword-du-jour as needed to keep a high profile and nice hairdo.  L Right now, the trend is away from Windows and towards Linux. And HP has madeG two steps so far to augment its Linux presence in the market, including F desktops.  So it seems to me that Carly will have no problems ditching/ microsoft if that becomes the buzzword du jour.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:34:06 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised, Message-ID: <Es-dnbT6PoTNrgPdRVn-gg@igs.net>   Alan,    Check your in-box.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 10:46:44 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised6 Message-ID: <409E5264.46D08E3E@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > { > In article <409CFF40.DB548F2B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes: - > >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  > >> [snip] L > >> So the question which we're discussing, I think, is how to get HP to do > >> anything. > > I > >Actually, I think *THAT* is the part we're consistently getting wrong.  > > C > >*WE* (interpret taht as you will) are not going to "get hp to do 
 > >anything".  > > I > >It's entirely up to us. Hp has demonstrated unmistakably that, forgive , > >the vernacular, they ain't gonna do shit. > - > Then, forgive the vernacular, we're fucked.    Not far from it now...  J > >In the motivational world, we have the saying: "If it is to be, it's upF > >to me". By extension, then, it's up to us: individually to agree toJ > >co-operate in one all-or-nothing effort to save our businesses, careersI > >etc., or to admit defeat and let hp slowly choke VMS to death (not far A > >from it now), and collectively to band togther to take action.  > > G > >Grand-scale advertising can be costly, yes (as was posted at another K > >point in this thread or another - I forget). However, if we (those of us E > >who have the option) each take an ad to the local cable vendor for J > >airing locally, that creates a potential nation(world?)-wide reach at aH > >modicum of cost and effort. That will open many "enabling" doors thatI > >will make it at least possible to schmooze, convince, finagle, cajole, J > >finesse, etc. others down the road to carry promo.'s (print, electonic,K > >etc.) that will cause business types to look up their local VMS reseller K > >and talk about doing some business. (Don't go there just yet - I'm still  > >working that out in head.)  > O > Excuse me all to hell, but it seems like the best thing we're going to get by N > third-party advertising of an OS that HP isn't wholeheartedly behind is thatQ > people who do due diligence before going into an OS that they've never heard of G > except through an ad on cable access will just find out that HP isn't ? > wholeheartedly behind it and may not even let them order it.    G They won't be ordering from hp, anymore than most shops currently order G systems directly from hp - there's an OEM, ISV, VAR or some combination  thereof in between.   F As I said, I haven't quite worked that all out in my head just yet. MyG basic thinking at the moment is that the existing OEM/VAR/ISV base will E be the ones we will need to seek as partners as sources of equipment,  licenses and media.    The rest is up to us.    > You think thatQ > people trying to order it will turn them around; I think we have ample evidence M > of people trying to buy VMS and getting talked into Windows solutions, etc.   H Well, be careful there. At that point, you're talking about hp corporateC win-bots who are totally clueless that there's anything else in the 9 world. The idea is to by-pass that and go directly to the A VMS-knowledgeable OEMs/VARs/etc. who can handle the sales details  competently (or reasonably so).   6 > (Not so much from HP but from previous VMS vendors.)  " From what I hear, hp is no better.  C > >True, even hp is working against us at this point. I believe the F > >increase in $$$ can sway them toward, if not co-operation, at leastF > >neutrality: they won't care if we're out here trying sell what they1 > >wanna kill as long as the $$$ keep rolling in.a  > Please note that while neither the Q nor hp have displayed anyC respectable sense of honor in living up to their word, a consistent C theme through the whole VMS/Alphacide/Itanic fiasco has been "we'llg@ continue to sell and support (it) so long as there is a demand".  9 All I'm saying is, it's up to us to generate that demand.O  F > >...but yes, it's *ENTIRELY* up to *US*. Hp has made it unmistakablyF > >clear that they ain't gonna do shit (again, pardon the vernacular). > I > Unless we can get them to point where they're willing to sell it to newlL > customers rather than take VMS queries as sales leads for HP/UX, Linux, orQ > Windows, and demonstrate some commitment to VMS's continued existence, what can N > third parties do that would make it make sense for new customers to buy in?   < See the current industry flack over Netsky, Sasser, etc. ...   > HP > has to price it affordably,2  C Yes - that *IS* a long-standing issue - perhaps the greatest singlepC obstacle DEC / Q / hp could possibly have erected to VMS's success.e  G Then, again, look at what the market is buying, and what they're payingsE for it. All we have to do is illustrate how value is derived not from H cost-to-acquire but from, as hp continually touts but consistently fails to demonstrate, TCO.  A Getting the bean-counters over the sticker shock of VMS's cost tob# acquire will always be a challenge.   < To quote Tom Hanks's character from "A League of Their Own":  G "It's supposed to be hard. Otherwise, everyone would do it. The hard is  what makes it great."i  - > HP has to make it orderable, or advertising  > campaigns are for naught.-  A It is orderable. We just gotta open ourselves up to some creative @ approaches to exploiting the existing ordering channels (channel partners, OEMs, VARs, etc.).  P > I wasn't proposing that we continue to watch the erosion and do nothing, I wasO > proposing a PR campaign to surface the issue in the media that decisionmakerseN > read, and thus attempt to encourage/shame HP upper management into promoting' > what could be their flagship product.t  9 ...but that's still trying to change the leopard's spots.   E There is one place - and place only - we are assured of being able toC4 have influence and make changes. Look in the mirror.  F If we can cause the existing partners to be placing more orders (stuffH we're selling through them), it may re-inforce to the brain-damaged thatG advertising is not needed since hp is not advertising VMS yet sales areeA rising suddenly. Sad and pitiable as it may be, that's just theirs& reality - we cannot change it or them.  D The end result - proliferation of VMS sites, however, would still be achieved none the less.   B I may sound a bit Machiavellian saying this, but the "how" matters& little - it's the "what" that matters.   -- n David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.257 ************************