1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 12 May 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 262       Contents:@ Re: %MOUNT-F-MAPHDRBAD, storage map header is bad; volume locked? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... ? Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way ..... P Re: DCLER (DCL Enhancement Request) for DIRECTORY /SORT=[CREATED,MODIFIED,...] /8 Re: DCLER (DCL Enhancement Request) for SET PROMPT: Time/ Determining amount of  space used on a DLT tape 3 Re: Determining amount of  space used on a DLT tape + Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) / Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-) @ Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO@ Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO@ Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO@ Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO@ Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO@ Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?P Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS OpenVP Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS OpenV  Re: Is ZIP on VMS a process hog?  Re: Is ZIP on VMS a process hog?# Re: LIB$INITIALIZE: simple example?  Re: longest uptime0 Re: OpenVMS Marketshare x Products ConsolidationP OpenVMS Pearl - Golden Eggs has a home - This is really a pearl for many areas n% Re: Oracle DB use vote at HP Advocacy % Re: Oracle DB use vote at HP Advocacy # Parity errors when HSG80 restarted? ' Re: Parity errors when HSG80 restarted? - Re: PPP and TCP/IP(UCX) configuration for ISP  Re: SHOW ROUTE RE: Suggestion for TYPE command ! Re: SUN fails to advertise VMS... ! Re: SUN fails to advertise VMS... P We still have slots available for the OpenVMS Boot camp if you are interested in) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised ) Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:50:24 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)I Subject: Re: %MOUNT-F-MAPHDRBAD, storage map header is bad; volume locked $ Message-ID: <c7reag$p2d$1@online.de>  = In article <12fe110f.0405110439.5b179386@posting.google.com>, ( info@it-bcsb.de (Klaus-D. Bohn) writes:   H > A wrong command "mount /shadow = ..." has destroyed my data on a disk.  ) I ALWAYS use MOUNT/CONFIRM interactively.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 13:34:50 -0700' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....= Message-ID: <734da31c.0405111234.72f1f191@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<c7qapp$e51$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > David Svensson wrote:  > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<c7nlk3$g9i$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > > F > >>Even Dell who have an exclusive deal with Intel are hardly pushing > >>Itanium are they.  > >  > > 6 > > They are about to ship a 4-way Itanium server now. > 1 > Wow, how many years have HP been shipping 4 way  > Itanium boxes for. > 0 > If you can't work out why this point is rather1 > damaging to yours then have a think about Dells  > market strategy.  L They have until now only a 2-way server, now they are adding a 4-way server.3 I see this as a bit positive for Itanium from Dell.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 13:47:35 -0700' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....< Message-ID: <734da31c.0405111247.8cd2912@posting.google.com>   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<c7qafp$e51$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > David Svensson wrote:  > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<c7nl4t$g1u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > >  > >>David Svensson wrote:  > >>v > >>>Andrew Harrison <andrew_._remove_harrison@su_n.com> wrote in message news:<c7i9s4$p83$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > >>>  > >>>  > >>>>Keith Parris wrote:  >    > >>Fuji no., > >>HP possibly but even 20000 sounds rather > >>optimistic.  > >  > > ; > > Clearly above 20000. Intel sold above 100000 last year, 1 > > HP has most likely 80% of the Itanium market.  > >  > >  > 7 > Hang on Intel estimated that they were going to build  > 100000 itaniums last year.  2 No, that is wrong. The 100000 was not an estimate.  7 > When did the estimate of 100000 which vanishingly few 2 > people thought was likely to happen turn into an > actual sale of 100000 CPU's.   At IDF: @ "Intel CEO Craig Barrett noted that Intel sold more than 100,000 Itanium processors last year".  3 > And where did the 13000 Itanium CPU's sold by SGI 
 > come from ?   2 What do you mean? I guess Intel manufactured them.  = > >>>>Itanium is for HP, the sooner the rest of the Intel OEM ? > >>>>community wake up to that fact the better (for them), IBM C > >>>>already have and its only a matter of time before NEC, Unisys @ > >>>>and the rest give up on what have been a major problem for! > >>>>HP and a disaster for them.  > >>>  > >>>  > >>>That is FUD. 1 > >>>IBM have not changed their Itanium plans and + > >>>NEC is doing pretty well with Itanium.  > >>7 > >>This is not FUD, IBM have chosen not to use Itanium < > >>for their next generation high end Intel based SMP boxes? > >>this was key design win that Itanium needed. IBM considered < > >>Itanium but rejected it because it was too expensive and > >>not fast enough. > >  > > I > > This has been discussed before... IBM has as far as I know never been G > > that keen on Itanium for various reasons. I don't expect them to do  > > more than what they do now.  > # > Sorry but thats the wrong answer.    Not from my point of view.  = > Had IBM's only option for 64bit been Itanium then I suspect > > that their decision would have been different, only having a? > 32bit OS and 32bit platform would for a large SMP system with 1 > up to 64 CPU's have become an increasing issue.   4 I don't think IBM would have build one in that case.F And besides, they push POWER as their high-end offering more nowadays.  E > However its also pretty clear that IBM knew about the Intel x86-64  F > announcements before they made their decision hence their apparentlyB > odd choice of going with what at the time appeared to be a 32bit > platform only.   Ofourse.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:47:33 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....@ Message-ID: <b6696236c9fb212ed243bc128fc295df@news.teranews.com>   David Svensson wrote: 	 > At IDF: B > "Intel CEO Craig Barrett noted that Intel sold more than 100,000  > Itanium processors last year".  M How many of those were sold below cost ? (eg: donated to various high profile  labs ?)   @ One cluster used over 4000 of those 300 watt hot air generators.  J So 25 customers building a similar cluster would fill that 100,000 number.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 22:45:31 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....3 Message-ID: <ELeuI0VnukcM@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <c7qak9$e51$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: > Rob Young wrote: >> In article <c7nl4t$g1u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:  >>   >>  : >>>And I seen no signs that NEC is doing well with Itanium9 >>>perhaps you could provide some references. Remember it 7 >>>isn't one off referencable sales that matter but how : >>>many units you actually sell based on those references. >>>  >>   >>  B >> 	Eh?  So? NEC is a blip.  At 2% of the world-wide server share, >> 	they are small.    >>   >>  A >> http://www.dataquest.com/press_gartner/quickstats/servers.html  >>  I >> Statistics: Top 10 Server Vendors by Shipments, Worldwide 2002-2003     >>  R >>                     2002        2003         2002 Share %        2003 Share %  J >> Hewlett-Packard     1,388,508   1,605,856    30.1%               28.9% J >> Dell                  852,332   1,105,577    18.5%               19.9% J >> IBM                   659,472     878,390    14.3%               15.8% J >> Sun Microsystems      273,665     287,976     5.9%                5.2% J >> Fujitsu Siemens       167,752     119,537     3.6%                2.2% J >> NEC                   103,692     111,508     2.2%                2.0% J >> Hitachi                28,764      29,669     0.6%                0.5%  >>  5 >> Source: Gartner Dataquest Q403 WW Server Quarterly ' >> Statistics Database (February 2004)   >>  
 >> 				Rob >>  B > Do you think that the 111,508 units sold by NEC were all Itanium > boxes. > / > Come on Rob even you can do better than that.  >   0 	Gee Andrew - your "awe come on Robs" get old.    ) 	You are missing the point - nothing new.  	 > 	Pretend I'm arguing for and against.  Or I'm arguing against. 	Or I'm arguing for.  > 	At 2% of market share it doesn't matter what NEC is doing one 	way or another.   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 22:45:15 -0700' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson) H Subject: Re: Alpha is phased out .... UltraSPARC V in the same way .....= Message-ID: <734da31c.0405112145.1593a98b@posting.google.com>   u JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:<b6696236c9fb212ed243bc128fc295df@news.teranews.com>...  > David Svensson wrote:  > > At IDF: D > > "Intel CEO Craig Barrett noted that Intel sold more than 100,000" > > Itanium processors last year". > O > How many of those were sold below cost ? (eg: donated to various high profile 	 > labs ?)   * That is something one can speculate about,J some people have said that those were real normal sales, but I don't know.  B > One cluster used over 4000 of those 300 watt hot air generators. > L > So 25 customers building a similar cluster would fill that 100,000 number.  1 Yes, but not that many buy such large systems. :) O SGI says they have shipped Altix machines to more than 215 different customers.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:29:15 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>Y Subject: Re: DCLER (DCL Enhancement Request) for DIRECTORY /SORT=[CREATED,MODIFIED,...] / 6 Message-ID: <40A18BFB.BE5797B4@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Peter Weaver wrote:  >  > Paul Sture wrote:  > >...B > > Peter Weaver posted this neat trick with dates on 30-Apr-2004: > > B > > Make sure you run it with SET TERM/WIDTH=132 to avoid wrapping > > ...  > H > Actually, if the terminal is set to 80 the wrap should be OK, but hereH > is an "Improved" version that handles the terminal wrap better as longI > as you have the terminal width set to 80. Watch the two long lines, the E > comments tell you how many spaces should be there. (It sure is nice , > seeing VMS postings in comp.os.vms again!) >   > $ ASSIGN LIB$DATE_FORMAT_037,- >    LIB$TIME_FORMAT_001 - >    LIB$DT_FORMAT/USER_MODE' > $ directx -  ! Ignore any DIR symbols  >    /date=modified-" >    /width=(file:80,display:132)-8 >    /out=sys$scratch:sort_date_'f$getjpi("","PID")'.tmp< > $ sort sys$scratch:sort_date_'f$getjpi("","PID")'.tmp tt:- >     /specification=sys$input: , > /field=(name=filename1,position:1,size:19)- > /field=(name=filename2,position:20,size:60) - > /field=(name=datefield,position:83,size:22) 1 > /condition=(name=shortname,test=(filename2 eq " , >                            ")) ! 60 spaces0 > /condition=(name=longname,test=(filename2 ne "+ >                           ")) ! 60 spaces   > /include=(condition=shortname, > key=datefield, > data=filename1,  > data="  ", ! 2 spaces  > data=datefield)  > /include=(condition=longname,  > key=datefield, > data=filename1,  > data=filename2, , > data="                      ", ! 22 spaces > data=datefield) J > $ delete/nolog/noconfirm sys$scratch:sort_date_'f$getjpi("","PID")'.tmp.  F Thanx for that. That's a far more lucid explanation of how to use SORTA /SPECIFICATION than I have ever seen in a manual or on-line HELP.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:28:17 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>A Subject: Re: DCLER (DCL Enhancement Request) for SET PROMPT: Time 6 Message-ID: <40A18BC1.11FC0E59@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: >  > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<409E5608.A14E4BE5@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... > > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > > H > > > Any chance of having a time option added to SET PROMPT? Perhaps itL > > > could be added F$FAO style. Note: The time would be static -- it would> > > > just be the time that the prompt appeared on the screen. > > ( > > Ala SET PREFIX, only for the prompt. > > I > > Seems a simple enough change, though a lot of folks have been looking D > > for a more UN*X-ly prompt showing the current working directory. > > % > > Can't please everyone, I guess...  > H > Well, I envision it as something customizable. The default would stillE > be "$ ". You could make it like the MS-DOS prompt which can contain H > the time, the directory, both, or neither. As for me, I would like theF > time and the node name. The node name I can do, and do do, of course' > (no pun intended). The time, I can't.   E The string for SET PROMPT needs to be like SET PREFIX: it needs to be + employed as a string argument to (SYS)$FAO.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 11:01:22 -0700& From: dorrt@sutterhealth.org (tr dorr)8 Subject: Determining amount of  space used on a DLT tape= Message-ID: <59b7bbb8.0405111001.46e24412@posting.google.com>   ; Is there a way to determine how much data is on a DLT tape? F It would be useful to know what the compation ratio is and how much of, the tape is used? Is there a way to do this?     Thanks,  Tom    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:45:31 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) < Subject: Re: Determining amount of  space used on a DLT tape/ Message-ID: <v3aoc.1247$jw1.1@news.cpqcorp.net>   f In article <59b7bbb8.0405111001.46e24412@posting.google.com>, dorrt@sutterhealth.org (tr dorr) writes:< :Is there a way to determine how much data is on a DLT tape?G :It would be useful to know what the compation ratio is and how much of - :the tape is used? Is there a way to do this?   C  Please check the OpenVMS FAQ.  A relevent section is/was entitled:   5     How do I check for free space on a (BACKUP) tape?     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:56:49 -0700 3 From: Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> 4 Subject: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-). Message-ID: <40A113E1.7050207@Flying-Disk.com>  = I was just doing my morning scan of upcoming Ebay auctions of ! DEC-related stuff and found this:   K http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=4128752485   A It is enough to make me drool!   Four 1980's vintage VAXes, still B working in a cluster.   As of this time, there are no bids and the8 minimum is only $500.   Here is the auction description:   Ends May-12-04 12:36:12 PDT   L   VAST QUANITY OF VAX GEAR! All installed at ROOSEVELT OKLAHOMA ALL WORKING!M    1. MAYBE LAST VAX 11/785 still working 32MB CI780 and Unibus has 4 x Eagle -       drives, RA 81 and TU80 VMS 4.7 and 5.5.     2. VAX 8250 16MB CI+    3. VAX 8530 32MB CI and Unibus + Console +    4. VAX 8700 64MB CI and Unibus + Console 4    5. HSC50 Cluster with 2 x TA78 and 12 x RA81 RA90$    6. Cluster is common boot VMS 5.5    7. 3 x LP25 printers.    8. Power Distribution Unit 5    9. Spare 8250, TU/TA 78 master/slave, PDU and 8300 8   10. 2 spare 785 CPU, FP and memory cards + backplanes.2   11. All sorts of DECSERVERS and networking gear./   12. VT 220s, VT 240s MV3100 and some VT 100s. 0   13. Manuals for all hardware, VMS 4.7 and 5.5.B   14. Software licences for all hardware and VMS, DECNET, Cluster,@       Fortran, Basic, ADA, Cobol and all the distribution tapes.  ;   Can disconnect and prepare to ship - this is alot of gear G   (about 40' van load), Purchaser responsible to final pack and remove. F   Preference to go to a good home - otherwise theres over $2,000 scrap5   gold in these machines. Can be shown fully working.       @ I would really hate to see these machines scrapped, but I simply@ don't have room for even one of them.   I hope that someone here% will save them from the salvage yard.    Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 11 May 2004 20:58:30 GMT1 From: schroedingerzkat@aol.com (SchroedingerzKat) 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-): Message-ID: <20040511165830.11461.00001336@mb-m18.aol.com>  > >I was just doing my morning scan of upcoming Ebay auctions of" >DEC-related stuff and found this: > L >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=4128752485 > B >It is enough to make me drool!   Four 1980's vintage VAXes, stillC >working in a cluster.   As of this time, there are no bids and the  >minimum is only $500.  9 That is cool as hell.  Too bad he's not getting any bids.   M I wish I had the space / money, although I'd probably go with alphas instead.    Michael    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:36:28 +0100 9 From: Alan Adams <alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-)? Message-ID: <134a99ad4c.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>   - In message <40A113E1.7050207@Flying-Disk.com> >           Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:  ? > I was just doing my morning scan of upcoming Ebay auctions of # > DEC-related stuff and found this:  > M > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=4128752485  > C > It is enough to make me drool!   Four 1980's vintage VAXes, still D > working in a cluster.   As of this time, there are no bids and the: > minimum is only $500.   Here is the auction description:  L And the $500 will pay for the electricity to run and air condition them for, what, about a week?   H Sounds like our Vax cluster. When we replaced it with Alpha, part of theI argument was the cost of using 25KVA of power, and removing the resulting  heat.   @ It would make a nice talking point in somebody's house though...   >  > Ends May-12-04 12:36:12 PDT  > N >   VAST QUANITY OF VAX GEAR! All installed at ROOSEVELT OKLAHOMA ALL WORKING!O >    1. MAYBE LAST VAX 11/785 still working 32MB CI780 and Unibus has 4 x Eagle / >       drives, RA 81 and TU80 VMS 4.7 and 5.5.  >    2. VAX 8250 16MB CI- >    3. VAX 8530 32MB CI and Unibus + Console - >    4. VAX 8700 64MB CI and Unibus + Console 6 >    5. HSC50 Cluster with 2 x TA78 and 12 x RA81 RA90& >    6. Cluster is common boot VMS 5.5 >    7. 3 x LP25 printers. >    8. Power Distribution Unit 7 >    9. Spare 8250, TU/TA 78 master/slave, PDU and 8300 : >   10. 2 spare 785 CPU, FP and memory cards + backplanes.4 >   11. All sorts of DECSERVERS and networking gear.1 >   12. VT 220s, VT 240s MV3100 and some VT 100s. 2 >   13. Manuals for all hardware, VMS 4.7 and 5.5.D >   14. Software licences for all hardware and VMS, DECNET, Cluster,B >       Fortran, Basic, ADA, Cobol and all the distribution tapes. > = >   Can disconnect and prepare to ship - this is alot of gear I >   (about 40' van load), Purchaser responsible to final pack and remove. H >   Preference to go to a good home - otherwise theres over $2,000 scrap7 >   gold in these machines. Can be shown fully working.  >  >  > B > I would really hate to see these machines scrapped, but I simplyB > don't have room for even one of them.   I hope that someone here' > will save them from the salvage yard.  >  > Alan >    --  
 Alan Adams& alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk http://www.nckc.org.uk/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:13:27 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-)' Message-ID: <40A16C27.1060600@MMaz.com>    Alan Adams wrote:   . >In message <40A113E1.7050207@Flying-Disk.com>? >          Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:  >  >    > ? >>I was just doing my morning scan of upcoming Ebay auctions of # >>DEC-related stuff and found this:  >>M >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=4128752485  >>C >>It is enough to make me drool!   Four 1980's vintage VAXes, still D >>working in a cluster.   As of this time, there are no bids and the: >>minimum is only $500.   Here is the auction description: >>     >> > M >And the $500 will pay for the electricity to run and air condition them for,  >what, about a week? > I >Sounds like our Vax cluster. When we replaced it with Alpha, part of the J >argument was the cost of using 25KVA of power, and removing the resulting >heat. > A >It would make a nice talking point in somebody's house though...  >    > H Well, they'd need to first convert the VAX 11/785 to a fully functional 5 and stocked VAXbar, and then the bids would take off!      Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:47:08 -0400 % From: Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-); Message-ID: <howard-555AB9.20470811052004@news.newsguy.com>   . In article <40A113E1.7050207@Flying-Disk.com>,5  Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:   B > I would really hate to see these machines scrapped, but I simplyB > don't have room for even one of them.   I hope that someone here' > will save them from the salvage yard.   G Could happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath on someone both paying for  B them and paying to ship them.  Maybe contact the Computer History ) Museum? <http://www.computerhistory.org/>    --  4 Your prison is walking through this world all alone.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 May 2004 01:26:44 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-), Message-ID: <c7rugk12521@enews4.newsguy.com>  6 In comp.sys.dec Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:0 > In article <40A113E1.7050207@Flying-Disk.com>,7 >  Alan Frisbie <Usenet01REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> wrote:   D > > I would really hate to see these machines scrapped, but I simplyD > > don't have room for even one of them.   I hope that someone here) > > will save them from the salvage yard.   I > Could happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath on someone both paying for  D > them and paying to ship them.  Maybe contact the Computer History + > Museum? <http://www.computerhistory.org/>   I I'd hate to see how much storage room this would require, and how much it K would cost to ship!  Somehow I'm suspecting that at least one Semi would be  needed to move it!   		Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:20:23 -0400 % From: Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-); Message-ID: <howard-DA0C14.22202311052004@news.newsguy.com>   G In article <c7rugk12521@enews4.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:   K > I'd hate to see how much storage room this would require, and how much it M > would cost to ship!  Somehow I'm suspecting that at least one Semi would be  > needed to move it!  8 Then there's the power and the A/C.  Ain't gonna happen.   --  4 Your prison is walking through this world all alone.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 03:13:46 GMT 0 From: ace join_to ware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton)8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-)2 Message-ID: <40a195ff.7928609@news.m.iinet.net.au>   > 3 >  All installed at ROOSEVELT OKLAHOMA ALL WORKING!    Sigh !  ? I wonder what the shipping would be to Perth, Western Australia   
 Tony Epton4 Australian Computer Museum Society Western Australia   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:19:05 -0500 ! From: Mike Dorn <mrdorn@visi.com> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-); Message-ID: <40a197a9$0$17253$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>    Howard Shubs wrote: I > In article <c7rugk12521@enews4.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:  >  > K >>I'd hate to see how much storage room this would require, and how much it M >>would cost to ship!  Somehow I'm suspecting that at least one Semi would be  >>needed to move it! >  > : > Then there's the power and the A/C.  Ain't gonna happen. > M Baah--cowards!  I rescued/preserved 3 Data General MV-series Eclipses for my  Q basement.  There must be somebody willing to do the same for DEC's legacy.  Hey,  5 think what you can save on your winter heating bills!    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:32:00 -0400 % From: Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-); Message-ID: <howard-FEE283.23320011052004@news.newsguy.com>   ; In article <40a197a9$0$17253$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, #  Mike Dorn <mrdorn@visi.com> wrote:   O > Baah--cowards!  I rescued/preserved 3 Data General MV-series Eclipses for my  N > basement.  There must be somebody willing to do the same for DEC's legacy.    A Is.  I mentioned them already.  <http://www.computerhistory.org/>   ; You saved Eclipse MV-whatever boxen?  Fergodssakewhy??  :->    --  4 Your prison is walking through this world all alone.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:05:32 -0500 ! From: Mike Dorn <mrdorn@visi.com> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-): Message-ID: <40a1a28c$0$8695$a18e6209@newsreader.visi.com>   Howard Shubs wrote:   = > In article <40a197a9$0$17253$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, % >  Mike Dorn <mrdorn@visi.com> wrote:  >  > O >>Baah--cowards!  I rescued/preserved 3 Data General MV-series Eclipses for my  N >>basement.  There must be somebody willing to do the same for DEC's legacy.   >  > C > Is.  I mentioned them already.  <http://www.computerhistory.org/>  > = > You saved Eclipse MV-whatever boxen?  Fergodssakewhy??  :->  > # Because everyone needs a hobby.  ;p    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 04:11:23 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: Gigantic hobbyist cluster opportunity   :-)@ Message-ID: <2c6f2756814232ed639786577cbfcfd3@news.teranews.com>   Alan Adams wrote: E > > It is enough to make me drool!   Four 1980's vintage VAXes, still F > > working in a cluster.   As of this time, there are no bids and the< > > minimum is only $500.   Here is the auction description: > N > And the $500 will pay for the electricity to run and air condition them for, > what, about a week?   A You're forgetting the potential to use these in "different" ways. / http://toyvax.glendale.ca.us/~vance/vaxbar.html   M (I still think that the first process in the SHOW SYS output should be in HIB  state instead of LEF.     N Personally, I have converted an RA82 cabinet with the 3 big drawers empties toL be used to store all my travel maps. Another cabinet (stripped down) is used? to hold my sterao/VCR, and one RA82 below holds most of my CDs.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:44:44 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) I Subject: Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO ( Message-ID: <c7rhgc$e86$1@pcls4.std.com>   Tony pretty much has it right.  E Basically, executing SHUTDOWN.COM will properly dismount all locally  C mounted drives, but not those mounted by other nodes.  If you don't C manually dismount drives served by the rebooting node the following  will happen:  C Non-shadowed drives will "hang" for MVTIMEOUT seconds, or until the A serving node reboots and serves the drives again, whichever comes B first. (The rebooting node will serve the drive quite early in theL boot process).  If MVTIMEOUT expires, the drive goes into MountVerifyTimeout8 state and all IOs to it will fail until it is remounted.  G Shadowed drives will "hang" for SHADOW_MBR_TIMEOUT, or the serving node F reboots, whichever comes first.  If SHADOW_MBR_TIMEOUT seconds expire,J the problem drive is removed from the shadowset and the set continues withE the remaining member(s).  It will need to have a full copy when added J back in.  If there is only one member of the shadowset, or all members areF on the departing node, see the previous paragraph about "non-shadowed  drives".  D If a node has a shadowset mounted when it shuts down (which means itC crashed, since SHUTDOWN.COM will dismount it), and the set has more - than one member, it will go into merge state.      --   -Mike    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:00:31 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> I Subject: Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO @ Message-ID: <392019a0309edaba558f25ec286d65c9@news.teranews.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: I > Makes sense.  Presumably, SHUTDOWN.COM will stop all applications which H > might be writing to this disk first (otherwise it couldn't dismount it > cleanly).   F Nop. SHUTDOWN.COM calls SYSSHUTDOWN.COM which is your local customizedK shutdown procedure, and you re responsible to shutdown all your apps in it.i  G Similarly, you should dismount your data drives in your sysshutdown.com * procedure and leave only the system drive.  J > If they are on the node going down---does SHUTDOWN dismount the physicalH > members, or the shadow set itself.  If the former, is it guaranteed to6 > come back up without a copy or merge being required?  E If node1 dismounts DSA10, other nodes keep DSA10 mounted and "alive".   L If you DISMOUNT/CLUSTER DSA10, then all nodes will disolve the shadow set atI the same time and thus keep the integrity which allows for more efficient L rebuilding of the shadow set when you reboot and reform the shadown set with the same drives.  G > This is the main problem.  If just one node goes down, I have to liven< > with a copy.  However, what about a cluster-wide shutdown?  K each node should execute a IF DSA10 is mounted, then DISMOUNT/CLUSTER DSA10    You want simultaneous dismount.b  F > dismounted automatically.  If I specify CLUSTER_SHUTDOWN, should the8 > shadow set come back without a need for merge or copy?  G If you do a cluster shutdown, doesn't it execute the shutdown procedurelJ independantly on each node ? If so, each node will attempt to dismount theC drive locally at the very end of the procedure and this will not be L synchronized, thus your shadow set may consist of identical drives (in terms of timestamps etc).n   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:36:41 +0000 (UTC)DP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)I Subject: Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMO $ Message-ID: <c7rkhp$6ab$3@online.de>  C In article <392019a0309edaba558f25ec286d65c9@news.teranews.com>, JF - Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: t  1 > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: K > > Makes sense.  Presumably, SHUTDOWN.COM will stop all applications which J > > might be writing to this disk first (otherwise it couldn't dismount it
 > > cleanly).t > H > Nop. SHUTDOWN.COM calls SYSSHUTDOWN.COM which is your local customizedM > shutdown procedure, and you re responsible to shutdown all your apps in it.S  E No, I'm talking about stuff like the queue manager, audit server etc.e2 (Cluster-common files are not on any system disk.)  I > Similarly, you should dismount your data drives in your sysshutdown.comg, > procedure and leave only the system drive.  4 Sounds like good advice, but is it really necessary?  L > > If they are on the node going down---does SHUTDOWN dismount the physicalJ > > members, or the shadow set itself.  If the former, is it guaranteed to8 > > come back up without a copy or merge being required? > G > If node1 dismounts DSA10, other nodes keep DSA10 mounted and "alive".o > N > If you DISMOUNT/CLUSTER DSA10, then all nodes will disolve the shadow set atK > the same time and thus keep the integrity which allows for more efficient N > rebuilding of the shadow set when you reboot and reform the shadown set with > the same drives.  E Right.  However, suppose I have a shadow set with all members on the  I node going down.  Will a merge be needed a) in any case or b) if I don't PD explicitly dismount it first?  (If swap and page files are on it, I  can't.)s  I > If you do a cluster shutdown, doesn't it execute the shutdown procedurenL > independantly on each node ? If so, each node will attempt to dismount theE > drive locally at the very end of the procedure and this will not bePN > synchronized, thus your shadow set may consist of identical drives (in terms > of timestamps etc).e  H I thought the purpose of specifying CLUSTER_SHUTDOWN was to synchronise  it.e   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:03:37 +0000 (UTC)vP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)I Subject: Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMOr$ Message-ID: <c7rf39$p2d$2@online.de>  9 In article <c7qq6q$27mr$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Tony Arnold   <tony.arnold@man.ac.uk> writes:   J > I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve here! Let us consider  > a few scenarios. > J > Firstly, let us assume no shadow sets. We will have some disks that are J > local to the system being rebooted which are either mounted locally and J > possibly by other systems in the cluster. There will also be some disks H > mounted by this system but served by some other system in the cluster. > C > Disks that are local and not mounted by any other system will be t% > dismounted cleanly by SHUTDOWN.COM.n  H Makes sense.  Presumably, SHUTDOWN.COM will stop all applications which G might be writing to this disk first (otherwise it couldn't dismount it (	 cleanly).s  H > Disks that are local and also mounted by other system in the cluster, K > wil be dismounted by the local system, but remain mounted by the others. HJ > Access to this disk by the other systems will hang until the system has J > been rebooted. If the system is down for long enough, the disks will go H > inteop mount verify timeout on the other systems, but if you are just + > rebooting, this is usually not a problem.e  C OK.  But if they are away long enough to mount-verify timeout, thenlH apparently I have to reboot the other nodes in order to be able to mount them on all nodes again. y  I > Disks that are served by other systems but mounted locally should also  K > be dismounted cleanly by SHUTDOWN.COM. These disks should continue to be  D > served and available to the rest of the cluster during the reboot.   Makes sense.  J > OK, now let us consider shadow sets, which is more complicated. I think E > the complication arises when you have one shadow set member on the -A > rebooting system and another shadow set member on another node.   = If they are all on other nodes, then I don't see any problem.   I If they are on the node going down---does SHUTDOWN dismount the physical oG members, or the shadow set itself.  If the former, is it guaranteed to n4 come back up without a copy or merge being required?  H > I'm not too sure about this, but I believe that if another node has a J > file open or is accessing the shadow set at the time you reboot, then a I > shadow merge or copy will be required when you reboot as one member of >. > the set may have changed and the other not.    Right.   > To avoid this you would have uJ > to dismount all shadow set members at least on the nodes they are local J > too and possibly cluster wide. To do so, you would also have to kill of J > any application that is accessing these disks. But then if there are no A > files open on the shadow set during the reboot, then no shadow aI > copy/merge will be needed and you therefore would not have to dismount t > the disks in this situation.  E This is the main problem.  If just one node goes down, I have to liveaD with a copy.  However, what about a cluster-wide shutdown?  With allF cluster-wide files moved to a shadow set off the system disk, normallyG these applications are still running when I can dismount the shadow setnF (by hand or in SYSHUTDWN.COM), which means I can't dismount it withoutF killing them first.  So, either I do SET AUDIT/SERVER=EXIT etc by handG (nasty), or wait until the disk (presumably the individual members) get E dismounted automatically.  If I specify CLUSTER_SHUTDOWN, should the t6 shadow set come back without a need for merge or copy?   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:28:58 +0000 (UTC)>P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)I Subject: Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMOI$ Message-ID: <c7rk3a$6ab$1@online.de>  ; > In article <c7qq6q$27mr$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Tony Arnold>" > <tony.arnold@man.ac.uk> writes:  > < > > I'm not sure what problem you are trying to solve here!   I Basically, I want to avoid shadow copies and merges as much as possible, cF preferably without doing unsupported stuff like changing the order of F events in SHUTDOWN.COM and/or manually stopping processes before they  are normally stopped.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:32:08 +0000 (UTC)nP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)I Subject: Re: HBVS, shutdown procedures, dismounting disks, SHADOW_MBR_TMOa$ Message-ID: <c7rk98$6ab$2@online.de>  H In article <c7rhgc$e86$1@pcls4.std.com>, moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:     > Tony pretty much has it right. > G > Basically, executing SHUTDOWN.COM will properly dismount all locally  E > mounted drives, but not those mounted by other nodes.  If you don'tcE > manually dismount drives served by the rebooting node the followingd > will happen: > E > Non-shadowed drives will "hang" for MVTIMEOUT seconds, or until the,C > serving node reboots and serves the drives again, whichever comescD > first. (The rebooting node will serve the drive quite early in theN > boot process).  If MVTIMEOUT expires, the drive goes into MountVerifyTimeout: > state and all IOs to it will fail until it is remounted.  I Remounted where, by what node, when?  I recently had a non-shadowed disk  B become un-mountable and un-dismountable after a node unexpectedly  crashed and came back up.  l  F > If a node has a shadowset mounted when it shuts down (which means itE > crashed, since SHUTDOWN.COM will dismount it), and the set has more-/ > than one member, it will go into merge state.4  F So in a normal shutdown, shadow sets should come up without a copy or I merge needed if all members are on nodes which stay up or if all members I are on the node which reboots?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:53:18 GMTN- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>uC Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?s@ Message-ID: <58a0adfd7e57003405f664db193326b1@news.teranews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:nM > > It is not me asking that.  It is www.theinquirer.net that has this rumor:I- > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15834e > K > Someone should have posted the whole article because as of 13:00 EDT, themM > article, while still listed on the front page, leads to a "page not found".h   The link seems back on.%  I Ok, I've read the article. I can't put much of a credibility level to it.:N However, it is *possible* that it was purposefully written that way to protectH the sources and have HP just shrug it off as another demented complaint.  K I think that every unix vendor has considered the implications of Linux and>J has debated internally about the future of their proprietary Unix product.# Debate doesn't mean final decision.5  N What the article really says is that inside HP, there are some who don't thinkN too much of that IA64 thing, and there are some who feel HP-UX isn't worth the$ effort and they should just go Unix.  L However, there are interesting commercial implications about Linux. Lest sayK IBM or HP or Sun were to abandon their proprietary Unix and go Linux. Would N they give money to Redhat/SuSe/etc, or would they decide to maintain their own) version of Linux for their own platform ?S  J If they decide to go with a "linux vendor", that linux vendor then becomesL more or less a proprietary vendor of a Unix OS. So there would be commercial; versions of Linux and there would be open source versions. r  4 So to end up with the same paradigm as you have now.  H For HP though, it might be a cost effective way to ditch HP-UX's "legacyL code", and rejuvenate its Unix offering at a very low cost, and then take itM from there. I think the same applies to IBM, but I am not sure that Sun would-L benefit much since its Solaris still has a good reputation and is still seen as an industry standard Unix.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:21 +02005* From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>C Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?f- Message-ID: <c7r5bl$1njo$1@news.cybercity.dk>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message: news:bb0ec3c6f2cfce8fd4d1f03d7fff1836@news.teranews.com... > Karsten Nyblad wrote:  > > F > > It is not me asking that.  It is www.theinquirer.net that has this rumor:- > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15834b >,K > Someone should have posted the whole article because as of 13:00 EDT, the E > article, while still listed on the front page, leads to a "page not  found".   H I posted the whole article in news:c7q4dl$hq0$1@news.cybercity.dk  I canL still see the article on The Inquirers web site.  The inquirer seems to haveG some problems handling the load.  It is a good idea to link on the link-! again if the first attempt fails.4   ------------------------------   Date: 11 May 2004 21:05:29 GMT1 From: schroedingerzkat@aol.com (SchroedingerzKat) C Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?4: Message-ID: <20040511170529.11461.00001337@mb-m18.aol.com>  C >The license terms on RedHat are in som aspects worse than those ofaK >proprietary software.  You are not allowed to run RedHat unless you have aEM >support contract for the machine.  If you want to drop the support contract,tM >then you will have to remove anything for RedHat has the copyright and which < >is not on GPL.  I think it is the logos you have to remove.  N I think the trademarked logos, as you mention, are the main factor.  There areJ already fairly developed clones of Redhat Enterprise Linux.  They are very) close to the real thing, as I understand.-   MichaelT   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:13:21 GMTn- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>tC Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?"@ Message-ID: <36eea5edced902d9ba65b374beb0e36a@news.teranews.com>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:nF > Isn't that much like "Unix" situation way back when there was a kindG > of open source, common source. Before Digital, SUN, IBM, SCO, whoeversD > begun to add there own stuff. So in 10-20 years from now, we couldD > very well have a SUN-Linux, a HP-Linux, a IBM-Linux and so on. All? > just as different as Tru64, UP-UX, AIX ans Solaris are today.   G Yep. But meanwhile, it is those who sell Linuxc who will make money andaJ survive. Unfortunatly, being a black sheep doesn't work in IT, you have toG follow the flock. And the flock goes with the trendy buzzword-du-jour.    K So, for VMS to survive, they must rename it from the now defunct "Open" tags word to "Linux".   So, LinuxVMS here we come :-)   D Now, if HP really meant the "open", they would make VMS open source.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:43:00 +0200 * From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>C Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?e- Message-ID: <c7rdso$250e$1@news.cybercity.dk>-  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message: news:58a0adfd7e57003405f664db193326b1@news.teranews.com... > JF Mezei wrote:aH > > > It is not me asking that.  It is www.theinquirer.net that has this rumor:/ > > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15834D > >JI > > Someone should have posted the whole article because as of 13:00 EDT,0 the8G > > article, while still listed on the front page, leads to a "page not  found".n >h > The link seems back on.n >dK > Ok, I've read the article. I can't put much of a credibility level to it.eH > However, it is *possible* that it was purposefully written that way to protecteJ > the sources and have HP just shrug it off as another demented complaint.  K It a style The Inquirer uses when they are writing about romurs.  This timeU. the article seems less trustworthy than usual.  J > However, there are interesting commercial implications about Linux. Lest saymG > IBM or HP or Sun were to abandon their proprietary Unix and go Linux.t WouldhL > they give money to Redhat/SuSe/etc, or would they decide to maintain their own + > version of Linux for their own platform ?  >eL > If they decide to go with a "linux vendor", that linux vendor then becomesC > more or less a proprietary vendor of a Unix OS. So there would bei
 commercial< > versions of Linux and there would be open source versions. >.6 > So to end up with the same paradigm as you have now.  B The license terms on RedHat are in som aspects worse than those ofJ proprietary software.  You are not allowed to run RedHat unless you have aL support contract for the machine.  If you want to drop the support contract,L then you will have to remove anything for RedHat has the copyright and which; is not on GPL.  I think it is the logos you have to remove.   J > For HP though, it might be a cost effective way to ditch HP-UX's "legacyK > code", and rejuvenate its Unix offering at a very low cost, and then take- itI > from there. I think the same applies to IBM, but I am not sure that Suno wouldoI > benefit much since its Solaris still has a good reputation and is still  seen > as an industry standard Unix.o  G I think there is room for at least one of these vendors surviving.  Theo6 product would be Unix at machines with +32 processors.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:04:46 +0200h9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>eC Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?e' Message-ID: <40A13FEE.F93EF653@aaa.com>o   JF Mezei wrote:e > L > If they decide to go with a "linux vendor", that linux vendor then becomesN > more or less a proprietary vendor of a Unix OS. So there would be commercial< > versions of Linux and there would be open source versions. > 6 > So to end up with the same paradigm as you have now.  D Isn't that much like "Unix" situation way back when there was a kindE of open source, common source. Before Digital, SUN, IBM, SCO, whoeverlB begun to add there own stuff. So in 10-20 years from now, we couldB very well have a SUN-Linux, a HP-Linux, a IBM-Linux and so on. All= just as different as Tru64, UP-UX, AIX ans Solaris are today.   	 Because :   E - It's the *differences* between companies that generates the income.l   Not the similarities.t  	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:04:45 -0400k# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>tC Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely? , Message-ID: <C9-dnSXu3voU8TzdRVn-jg@igs.net>  5 "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in messageO& news:c7q4dl$hq0$1@news.cybercity.dk...K > It is not me asking that.  It is www.theinquirer.net that has this rumor:A > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15834M >IK > "SAY WHAT you will about HP, it sure bakes a cool pizza, and I so enjoyedi > theo. > filled edges on the one I munched yesterday.K > Was chewing away when I heard someone say that HP/UX would soon be in the C > past tense, while Linux is the four cheeses on the bread topping.v >PH > That's either RedHat or SuSE and the Novell Banshees for a development > environment. >C > Gnome and Bash. Sheesh!. > J > I almost choked when I heard the guys use the swearword "Itanic" instead of@ > Itanium, now that demand for Opterons is an AmericanHot topic. >EL > Intel has pulled the plug on some of the future Itanic plans with HP, muchL > to the PA-RISC guys' disgruntlement as it "re-aligns" its future strategy.    ( Also known as "Processorus Interruptus".   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:36:43 +0000 (UTC)0 From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukC Subject: Re: HP to can HP/UX? Intel pulls out of IA-64 prematurely?e) Message-ID: <c7rrir$fng$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>e  c In article <40A13FEE.F93EF653@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:  >JF Mezei wrote: >> -M >> If they decide to go with a "linux vendor", that linux vendor then becomesrO >> more or less a proprietary vendor of a Unix OS. So there would be commercial-= >> versions of Linux and there would be open source versions.s >> n7 >> So to end up with the same paradigm as you have now.t >sE >Isn't that much like "Unix" situation way back when there was a kindmF >of open source, common source. Before Digital, SUN, IBM, SCO, whoeverC >begun to add there own stuff. So in 10-20 years from now, we couldiC >very well have a SUN-Linux, a HP-Linux, a IBM-Linux and so on. Alll> >just as different as Tru64, UP-UX, AIX ans Solaris are today. >s
 >Because : >lF >- It's the *differences* between companies that generates the income. >  Not the similarities. >u  K The difference is that all those companies made changes to the UNIX kernelsr they inherited.cL Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds and he keeps a pretty firmM grip on the Kernel. As long as the companies want to keep on calling it LinuxiH the Kernel will remain compatible between different companies offerings.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    
 >Jan-Erik.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:21:07 -0500a@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>Y Subject: Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS OpenVn5 Message-ID: <40A18A13.7B85945@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>u   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > Robert Deininger wrote: G > > I don't know exactly _why_, but it is the case.  Digital built goodo> > > systems, but they were not very good at controlling costs. > J > Aren't Alpha systems such as DS10s (and I would assume DS15s) built fromH > industry standard parts ? They use industry standa<rd PCI bus, right ?; > Industry standard power supply, drives, connectors, etc ?I  @ You have to be careful how you use the term "industry standard".  E Industry standards are defined by standards setting bodies like ANSI,aG ISO, CCITT, IEEE and so on. Standards are not set either arbitrarily or1G unilaterally as is the case with Micro$hit, nor are they defined by how6H many people use what brand of (x). Standards are defined by the industry3 at large through research, review, and negotiation.   D While the items you cite may employ protocols defined by one or moreB standards bodies, I sincerely doubt whether any specific device orD vendor is defined by any standards body as a standard specification.   Widely used = de facto standard0  ) Defined specification = industry standard    --   David J. DachteraM dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:24:05 -0500p@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>Y Subject: Re: HP World Magazine: For Business Continuity...the answer may be OpenVMS OpenVo6 Message-ID: <40A18AC5.C8A62BF0@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Robert Deininger wrote:  > K > In article <b8876400c5f6265491ad8f3db64c424a@news.teranews.com>, JF Mezeia' > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:a >  > >Robert Deininger wrote:H > >> I don't know exactly _why_, but it is the case.  Digital built good? > >> systems, but they were not very good at controlling costs.- > >-K > >Aren't Alpha systems such as DS10s (and I would assume DS15s) built from, > >industry standard parts ? > 	 > Partly.i > . > >They use industry standard PCI bus, right ?I > The proper punctuation, in this case, is "industry standard".  PCI is a0 > nasty standard  9 I believe "specification" would be more appropriate here.>  9 >, with lots of wiggle room.  Many hours have been wasted " > getting PCI stuff to work right.  D Likewise with SCSI. Witness: getting VMS to play nice with so-called "standard" SCSI devices. m  D Every vendor takes a slightly difference view of the specifications. Hence, our technical dilemmas.   --   David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:52:29 +0200a9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>i) Subject: Re: Is ZIP on VMS a process hog?h' Message-ID: <40A13D0D.9BB02BB7@aaa.com>i   Paul Sture wrote:a > G > Disk fragmentation or unzipping to a large directory could definitely  > slow a system down of course.t  A Good point. And the OP didn't say if his system was "slowed down"n> because the CPU was running 100%, or if it was something else.5 Could definitly be disk I/O on a modern fast Alpha...   	 Jan-Erik.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:49:26 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>) Subject: Re: Is ZIP on VMS a process hog?,6 Message-ID: <40A190B6.97DEFD7C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Bob Ceculski wrote:R >  > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<40A03D3B.EB115B61@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... > > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > > >r= > > > I notice a slowdown on our alpha when a vms zip file isl; > > > "unzipped" ... is anyone aware of a priority problem?  > >r) > > On the chance that this *IS* legit...e > >e> > > (de)Compressing data is an entirely CPU-intensive process. > >oI > > CPU scheduling priority can be adjusted to minimize the impact, if it ; > > becomes an issue (CPU upgrade would be another option).w > ; > this isn't on the compression part, it happens during thet > archiving message ...-  	 Um, Bob? -  ; Whaddaya think is happening during the "archiving" message?@  H Either it's compressing a file into an archive, or if you're updating anE existing archive, it will copy (rather inefficiently, I'm afraid) thesC existing archive up to the point of the file being replaced (or thekE entire archive, if you're adding a file to it), compress the new file H into the destination (a temporary archive called Zxxxx.; found either inF your current default path or where you specify in /TEMP_PATH), then ifF needed, copy the balance of the archive into the destination. ZIP must" then replace the original archive.  D This allows an operation to be aborted without corrupting the target archive.  4 Here's a little known "gotcha" with ZIP. The archive: DKA600:[000000]TARGET.ZIP already exists for this example.   $ SHOW DEFAULT   DKA0:[DDACHTERA]@ $ ZIP/LEVEL=8/VMS DKA600:[000000]TARGET DKA200:[000000]SAMBA.ODS   In this operation, ZIP will:  H  1. Copy TARGET.ZIP to SYS$DISK:[]Zxxxxx.; ("xxxxx" is a decimal form of my PID).  >  2. Compress DKA200:[000000]SAMBA.ODS into SYS$DISK:[]Zxxxxx.;  ?  3. Copy SYS$DISK:[]Zxxxxx.; back to DKA600:[000000]TARGET.ZIP,e replacing the existing file.  B These non-compression phases will produce a lot of small I/Os, but) should not impose a significant CPU load.   E So, yes: if you're manipulating large archives (not recommended), youdE could see some performance degradation. In that case, I'd have to saytA break it up into smaller archives or do it during non-prime time.l  E Someone else mentioned ZIPping a 16GB file. Not sure ZIP will do that3E unless the result is less than 4GB (4:1 compression, not unheard of).:   -- i David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/W   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:19:48 -0500 (CDT)a From: sms@antinode.org, Subject: Re: LIB$INITIALIZE: simple example?) Message-ID: <04051115194795@antinode.org>e  # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)m  I >   I'd personally encourage avoiding the use of the lib$initialize psectuF >   unless you really and specifically need the particular capability;I >   unless and only if you need to initialize the module prior to gainingaH >   control through normal called-routine means.  Initialization throughL >   normal means is (in my mind) almost always preferable to lib$initialize.  @    Thanks for the encouragement, but I was just following ordersM ("http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/5763/5763pro_004.html#index_x_106"):!  H       DECC$ARGV_PARSE_STYLE must be defined externally as a logical nameD       or set in a function called using the LIB$INITIALIZE mechanism>       because it is evaluated before function main is called.   -, > :/* (What does this stuff actually do?) */  K >   It sets up a program section specifically known to the image activator.n  I    If you say so.  I assume that the name LIB$INITIALIZE is significant. 2? Is LIB$INITIALIZ just an aligner/filler where any name will do?e  E    A slightly more complete example (that is, one which included moreaG comments and enough code/instructions to compile, link, and work) woulda" have been nice.  Call me a whiner.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.orgr    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:24:22 +0000 (UTC)51 From: Jefferson Humber <matrix01@globalnet.co.uk>j Subject: Re: longest uptimeu2 Message-ID: <c7rga6$a43$1@hercules.btinternet.com>  C I've had a single node up for over 700+ days, running a production < system continuously.  H I rebooted after 700+ days to install a new layered product & Image the 6 system disk.....Otherwise it would still be going now.   Jeff     Klaus-D. Bohn wrote:   > Hello all VMS lovers,  > @ > im searching for the longest uptime from a VMS System/Cluster. > A > If have anyone of you a screen shot "show sys/noproc" and "showi  > cluster" please send it to me. >  > Thank you very much !r >  >     Klaus-D. Bohn    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:34:56 -0500r@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Marketshare x Products Consolidation86 Message-ID: <40A18D50.BD14B29A@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   John Smith wrote:nG > [snip, but thanks for reposting so Kerry's text would appear wrapped]n > D > Nice synopsis Kerry, but you missed Fabio's point entirely. He was> > suggesting that the 3rd-party ISV's consolidate (ie. merge).  G Part of what I have been suggesting would include a "one stop shopping"bH source for such third-party items. The end-user might still need to haveG umpteen-billion support contracts (one for each vendor), but at least ai! one-stop source for the products.O   -- u David J. DachteraI dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 12:10:09 -07001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)tY Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - Golden Eggs has a home - This is really a pearl for many areas nC= Message-ID: <857e9e41.0405111110.232d8e34@posting.google.com>u   -----Original Message----- From: Skonetski, Susan ,# Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 3:08 PM$ To: Skonetski, SusanB Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - Golden Eggs has a home - This is really a! pearl for many areas not just VMSy     Dear folks,s  C Some excellent news, Golden Eggs an excellent picture/configurationn; tool done by Matti Patari (formally of HP)now has a home onp www.openvms.orgw  + Here is just a sample of what you will see.   1 AlphaServer DS15 suite, 3 pages 180kb  09-May-04 s0 AlphaServer DS25 suite, 5 pages 364kb 09-May-04 ) AlphaServer GS1280 M32 1150MHz 09-May-04  . Integrity rx2600 Systems 1500MHz 2P 09-May-04 + Integrity rx2600 Cluster MSA1000 09-May-04 O2 ProLiant DL145 Systems 2200MHz 2P AMD64 09-May-04 2 ProLiant DL585 Systems 2200MHz 4P AMD64 09-May-04 / ProLiant DL380 G3 Systems 3200MHz 2P 09-May-04  , ProLiant DL560 Systems 3000MHz 4P 09-May-04   @ Many thanks to Matti and Ken Farmer for making this available to$ everyone in the technical community.  6 Isaac you may wish to forward to the UNIX Ambassadors.   Please feel free to forward.  
 Warm Regards,  Suee   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 14:30:27 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan). Subject: Re: Oracle DB use vote at HP Advocacy= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0405111330.2877e0f5@posting.google.com>n  U "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com> wrote in message news:<c7kpim$179h$1@news.cybercity.dk>...- > Hi,  > , > This nay interest sites using DBMS on VMS. >   > http://www.hpuseradvocacy.org/ >  > Current tally: > J > In your OpenVMS environment, what combination of Oracle products are you
 > running? > < > Oracle Database Only (eg: 7, 8, 8i, 9i, 10g, etc.) --> 16% > Oracle RDB Only --> 42% - > Both Oracle Database and Oracle RDB --> 19%i) > Other Oracle products not listed --> 4% ) > Not running any Oracle products --> 20%  >  > 145 votes. >  > Dr. Dweebl    C Codasyl DBMS at a number of MANMAN sites.  I voted with the 4%.  No C Oracle or Rdb anywhere except for the Rdb required for CDD on thoseu MANMAN systems.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:28:01 -0700e+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>o. Subject: Re: Oracle DB use vote at HP Advocacy' Message-ID: <40A15371.1060601@MMaz.com>r   Rich Jordan wrote:  < >>Oracle Database Only (eg: 7, 8, 8i, 9i, 10g, etc.) --> 16% >>Oracle RDB Only --> 42%e- >>Both Oracle Database and Oracle RDB --> 19%y) >>Other Oracle products not listed --> 4%i) >>Not running any Oracle products --> 20%  >> >>145 votes. >> >>Dr. Dweebl >>     >> >f >iD >Codasyl DBMS at a number of MANMAN sites.  I voted with the 4%.  NoD >Oracle or Rdb anywhere except for the Rdb required for CDD on those >MANMAN systems. >I >    >l Ditto...       --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                        O   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 11:53:55 -07001 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)u, Subject: Parity errors when HSG80 restarted?- Message-ID: <rEZdh1eXgEu+@malvm7.mala.bc.ca.>m  C  I had an odd thing happen yesterday ( at least I think it's odd ).n  >  VMS 7.3-2 (with the VMS732_FIBRE_SCSI V2.0 patch) on a DS20E,F disks on a dual controller RA8000 ( ACS 8.6P-13 ) in Multibus failover; mode, KGPSA-B (Emulex LP7000) FC adapters, switched fabric.bE All possible FC paths are configured ( 2 adapters in the DS20E, going K to 2 separate FC fabrics, going to the A/B ports on each HSG80 controller).eG There are no other devices in this zone on the fabric switches ( thoughc1 there's a separate cluster in a different zone ).a  F  I restarted one of the controllers on the HSG80 ( using RESTART THIS E command from the console ). It restarted normally. The disks appearediB to fail over to the other controller as would be expected ( and as@ was logged in the system error log ). However my Oracle databaseC crashed, saying it got parity errors during a write on all 3 of theuD disks where I have mirrored versions of the control file ( all 3 areG on the RA8000 ). There didn't appear to be any damage to the data, whenrL I restarted the database it recovered normally ( no media recovery needed ).  I  I thought the failover between controllers on the RA8000 was supposed tosI be transparent to the application software, I didn't expect to see parityfE errors being reported. I don't recall this being an issue other times F I've restarted a controller, but that has been with VMS 7.3-1 systems.D Is this a new behaviour/bug in 7.3-2 or indicative of a problem withB this configuration ( or just something that's always happened that I've not noticed before) ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:53:50 -0500n@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>0 Subject: Re: Parity errors when HSG80 restarted?6 Message-ID: <40A191BE.10A398FB@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > E >  I had an odd thing happen yesterday ( at least I think it's odd ).d > @ >  VMS 7.3-2 (with the VMS732_FIBRE_SCSI V2.0 patch) on a DS20E,H > disks on a dual controller RA8000 ( ACS 8.6P-13 ) in Multibus failover= > mode, KGPSA-B (Emulex LP7000) FC adapters, switched fabric.lG > All possible FC paths are configured ( 2 adapters in the DS20E, goingoM > to 2 separate FC fabrics, going to the A/B ports on each HSG80 controller).hI > There are no other devices in this zone on the fabric switches ( thoughp3 > there's a separate cluster in a different zone ).E > G >  I restarted one of the controllers on the HSG80 ( using RESTART THISeG > command from the console ). It restarted normally. The disks appearedvD > to fail over to the other controller as would be expected ( and asB > was logged in the system error log ). However my Oracle databaseE > crashed, saying it got parity errors during a write on all 3 of the>F > disks where I have mirrored versions of the control file ( all 3 areI > on the RA8000 ). There didn't appear to be any damage to the data, when N > I restarted the database it recovered normally ( no media recovery needed ). > K >  I thought the failover between controllers on the RA8000 was supposed tosK > be transparent to the application software, I didn't expect to see parityeG > errors being reported. I don't recall this being an issue other timesiH > I've restarted a controller, but that has been with VMS 7.3-1 systems.F > Is this a new behaviour/bug in 7.3-2 or indicative of a problem withD > this configuration ( or just something that's always happened that > I've not noticed before) ?  ? *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING ***o  G There is a problem with the FC-SCSI patch V5 for V7.3-1. Do not installrD this patch, and if you have installed it, back it out IMMEDIATELY!!!  F Do not attempt to apply the replacement patch (V6) as it has also been	 recalled.   ? *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING *** WARNING ***h  H Also, contact your support rep. about an update to the HSG firmware, but" be ready for some unexpected news.   --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:43:27 -0400e  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>6 Subject: Re: PPP and TCP/IP(UCX) configuration for ISP6 Message-ID: <1040511183933.32308B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ( On 10 May 2004, shakeel-ur-rehman wrote:  F > I want to connect to my ISP that uses PPP and in windows 2000 I haveF > setted to obtain IP automatically and Obtain automaticall DNS serverH > address automatically.moreover there is also an setting of use defaultD > gateway. Now please tell me how to connect to that ISP on Open VMSB > with the following settings and assignments. Kindly tell me whatG > things are required like in interface and routing settings of the ucxp< > configuration. like PPPD dial_out device name details etc. >  > ; > DEC AXPVMS UCX V4.2-21              Full LP     Installed   8 You need to run a more recent version of UCX (now called "TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS")  5 I think you need V5.1 or later.  V5.4 is most recent.d     -- o John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:27:03 -0500n@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> Subject: Re: SHOW ROUTEi6 Message-ID: <40A18B77.B6D8A338@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:n > [snip]4 > TCPIP$CONFIG asks you if you want dynamic routing.  H Based on experience, I don't recommend dynamic routing, unless it solvesB a particularly sticky problem - it can cause more problems than it solves, in my experience.e  G "Permanent" (manually determied default) routes seem to serve best in ae- good number of cases, based on my experience.s   -- n David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:21:09 -0400s  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>( Subject: RE: Suggestion for TYPE command6 Message-ID: <1040511171636.32308D-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ? On Tue, 11 May 2004 Kenneth.Robinson@VerizonWireless.com wrote:-   >  >  > > -----Original Message-----1 > > From: Hein [mailto:hein.nomail@hp.nomail.com]P& > > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:28 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr, > > Subject: Re: Suggestion for TYPE command > >  > > J > > That would be best solved by NOT overloading TYPE, but by having a CUT > > command like any UNIX box. > >  > > $CUT -c 10-50 | MORE > > * > > Can a  Bash/Posix environment do this? > >  > >l > L > The Bash in the GNV environment installed on 7.3-2 can do that. I did just > did the following: >  > bash$ cut -c 10-50 login.com >  nover  A Also works on 7.3-1.  And if you have DCL$PATH defined to includem GNU:[BIN], it works from DCL.-  C BTW, it seems to require Unix directory syntax; I have my login.com # in [.COM] subdirectory, so it likedl    $ cut -c 10-50 com/login.coml&  DE() .EQS. "NETWORK" THEN $ GOTO SKIP  n  erify  ...   but not_    $ cut -c 10-50 [.com]login.com@P  /$1$dkc0/vms$common/gnv/bin/cut.exe: [.com]login.com: no such file or directory   -- M John Santosy Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 12:36:57 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: SUN fails to advertise VMS...= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0405111136.23ef1432@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<c7qp4d$jbd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...n5 > > "Belkin Plugs in HP Superdome System; Unplugs Sune > > K > > Manufacturer taps HP to replace Sun Solaris and consolidate information < > > technology infrastructure; Performance soars 250 percent% > > PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb. 11, 2004"  > > I > Last time I looked Belkin were using a Sun E6500 and E4500 so lets justaE > hope that it was a really really tiny SuperDome that delivered 250%cG > better throughput. Being 250% faster than a system thats over 5 years G > old and having a TCO thats lower than a system thats over 5 years olds3 > isn't that impressive its what you should expect.e > 	 > Regardso > Andrew Harrisono  = what you should expect is that OpenVMS system to replace thatb< slowaris garbage and its 1100 certs and counting with a cert< count that is 13 over the last 10 years and an os that can't get viruses!   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 13:53:50 -0700' From: icerq4a@spray.se (David Svensson)u* Subject: Re: SUN fails to advertise VMS...= Message-ID: <734da31c.0405111253.29e06a4f@posting.google.com>e   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<c7qp4d$jbd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...o > John Smith wrote:t > >  > >  > > JF,b > > H > > Perhaps their ad campaign is a reaction to Customer experiences like	 > > this:p > >  > @ > Sadly you would be incorrect, Sun started the HP Away campaign= > before HP started their Solaris migarion campaign so unless*; > you have developed a working time machine the reaction ist > all the other way arround.= > > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2004/040211a.htmle5 > > "Belkin Plugs in HP Superdome System; Unplugs Sun  > >   D If I understand english correctly I don't see that a time machine is= needed in this case. He said "experiences like this: ", and IaD interpret that as the reaction does not have to do directly with theF press release mentioned, but implied a more general view on the issue.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 12:12:02 -07001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)rY Subject: We still have slots available for the OpenVMS Boot camp if you are interested inR< Message-ID: <857e9e41.0405111112.d1f737d@posting.google.com>  2 Please visit http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/bootcamp  
 Warm Regards,  suex   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:41:11 +0000 (UTC)U From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised) Message-ID: <c7r37m$7l0$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>e   In article <c7qhp2$gls$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes: >Bob Koehler wrote:o] >> In article <c7opdj$2a11$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes:u >> l >> e	 >>> HP-UXsN >>>is so big that HP has to continue actively marketing that product.  NonStopO >>>is so different from HP-UX that the two can be marketed currently without HP2N >>>seeming unfocused.  OpenVMS is cached between those two.  It is not so much* >>>better at high availability than HP-UX  >> g >>   >>    Bull.1 >> . >eA >Nope sorry Karsten is right you are wrong (could that be again).s >eC >There is a spectum of availability, HP-UX with clustering providese? >the standard failover and restart/OPS type clustering which int0 >practice is fine for the majority of customers. >t= >NonStop provides full FT which is required by a much smallerd< >subset of HP's customer base, OpenVMS is sandwitched in the3 >middle, higher availability than HP-UX but not FT.  > < >People a clear what FT is and what benefits it delivers and >OpenVMS does not do FT. >l@ >People are also clear what HA clusters do but have real trouble+ >differentiating between HP-UX and OpenVMS.i > < >To make matters worse many customers have hybrid FT/Cluster: >environments, FT for the components within a service that: >require FT, clustered for the rest, one example being the: >SS7 infrastuctures many telcos have with FT boxes sitting7 >on the SS7 links to the switches connected to failover79 >clusters running on UNIX etc boxes running the DBMS/app.  >e7 >Sitting in the middle as OpenVMS does without the apps 8 >isn't really an advantage and just confuses marketeers. >c  O Which is why Sun has been busy trying to add VMS style clustering into Solaris  O over the last few years rather than putting all their efforts into producing a iN fault tolerant system to compete with Tandem - they obviously want to confuse  their marketeers.i    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >Regards >Andrew Harrison >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:55:57 +0000 (UTC)- From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised) Message-ID: <c7r43d$7l0$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>u  Z In article <c7qu6k$1f1j$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes: > 3 >"Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message"M >news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB314508@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net.... >fF >>How often have folks on this list stated they wanted HP to advertize >>OpenVMS more?r >nJ >Of course OpenVMS users will want HP to advertize OpenVMS.  But that doesK >not necessarily mean that that would be a wise business decission to HP toeD >do that.  If HP looses HP-UX and NonStop customers because HP seemsJ >unfocused then OpenVMS is going to sell many, many systems to pay for the4 >ads and the lost sale of HP-UX and NonStop systems. >z  G In that case HP should drop all OS's and concentrate on being a printerwG supplier. Everybody knows that is it's core market - all this computing ( business is just making it lose focus :)  . This loss of focus argument is a load of bull.      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    H >>Using your theory, HP would not have to advertise OpenVMS at all since/ >>its technical capabilities would sell itself.w >yH >VMS lost the workstation market to Sun, Appollo and Windows by being toK >expensive.  The Sparc and Mips processors were twice as fast as the Vaxes.eM >Then Digital got Alphas, but it did not introduce cheap workstations on thatuK >platform.  These days OpenVMS cannot win customers because everybody thinkuM >it is going to be EOLed sometimes during the next decade.  And then there isw
 >the price...e >nI >>Using your theory, can you expand on the technical advantages as to why H >>so many CIO's choose Windows solutions over UNIX solutions? After all,6 >>they must have decided on technical reasons - right? >sL >Windows might be crap, but it is on that platform all the cool desktop userL >applications are.  And then it is cheap compared to other platforms.  AppleI >might have some cool computers, but you end up paying considerably more.aM >Workstations have always been much more expensive than Windows.  People willx# >only pay so much more for quality.  >a$ >The best can also be too expensive. >x >Karsten Nyblady  >ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com >u >t   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 13:01:30 -06004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised3 Message-ID: <NOJpvck7dZ3o@eisner.encompasserve.org>b  , > Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: >  eN >> There's only so much we can do on our own, which is why I think the effortsO >> need to be bent toward swaying HP.  The crucial difference, I think, betweentM >> this suggestion and previous efforts is that the idea is to go very publictM >> with the issues.  With former proprietors of VMS, complaints at (eg) DECUS L >> produced those "tiny flurries" to which you referred earlier - basically,O >> attempts to pacify the installed base.  I'm talking about enough PR activityc, >> to, eventually, stir up the stockholders. >> ,  : One point that needs to be addressed, which I haven't seen? touched on yet, it promotion _within_ hp.  If, by some quirk ofa< fate, we _did_ get the IT buying public educated that VMS is; best, what good would it do if they call hp and get a salesu= person that doesn't know about it, or wants to sell a windowsoA enterprize (which is an oxymoron, at least to my way of thinking) 	 solution?o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 15:57:38 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised3 Message-ID: <tyVVmX2cI6y3@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  Z In article <c7qnkg$17ck$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes: > G > IBM has used 50 years to build customer trust in that if something is L > supported by IBM, then they will not leave you while you are in deeb shit.4 > HP has already canceled a couple of product lines.  B    IBM has canceled the 360 in favor of the 370.  They canceld the@    original AIX/PC2 combo, and radically changed AIX before theyH    tried it again.  They haven't supported 026 card punches for decades.    m    I see no difference.   G >>    Linux runs on 386, 486, Pentium, Alpha, PPC, ... (I admit I can't K >>    keep track of them all).  Shall we ask what does Mr. Torvaldis reallyf >>    want?e > * > And how many of these are actively sold?  +    Sold?  Mr. Torvaldis doesn't sell Linux.-  F    Right now I think Red Hat sells all of them.  Shall we ask what Red
    Hat wants?o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 16:00:45 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised3 Message-ID: <WbpU1vltlCzR@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  Z In article <c7qnkg$17ck$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes:  M > When you chose an operating system you want to be sure that you can buy new,L > systems for many years.  Thus you want to be sure that the vendor actuallyI > wants to continue active development and selling systems at competitive K > prices.  It is no easy decission to move to a new operating system if youh6 > have a million lines of code as many companies have. >   A    When I choose a car I want to be sure that I can buy new partsoC    for many years.  Thus I want to be sure that the vendor actuallyf@    wants to continue development and selling cars at competitiveG    prices.  Its no easy decision to move to a new car manufacturer if I E    have hundreds of tools to maintain the old one as many shops have.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:10:56 +0200-* From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7r8g5$1rgc$1@news.cybercity.dk>u  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message& news:tdOdnSzIDPkKkTzdRVn-iQ@igs.net...J > Mercedes has the Maybach. VW has the Phaeton. Rolls & Bentley, Ferrari &C > Maserati, all have cars that are wickedly expensive. All of these F > manufacturers advertise these cars even though perfectly serviceable  > alternatives exist at $30,000.  H Most people do not care if they can buy the same car ten years from now.H But any CIO cares if he can buy the same operating system ten years fromK now.  People care if they can show of their money driving a luxury car, butpG a company cannot use the fact that it uses a luxury operating system tot attract new customers.  L The market for luxury items is about showing how much money have.  It is notI about the quality or true value of these products.  Thus, rich people buyaL Maybachs, Ferraris, etc. to show of their money.  The more expensive the carK is, the more valuable it is to its customers regardless of what it costs toi produce the car.  L The market for cars is so different from the market of OSes that you have to& be very careful when you compare them.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:23:13 +0200e  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rg81$28v0$1@news.cybercity.dk>d   Karsten Nyblad wrote:r- > <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message-% > news:c7r37m$7l0$1@news.mdx.ac.uk...0D >> Which is why Sun has been busy trying to add VMS style clusteringE >> into Solaris over the last few years rather than putting all theirwA >> efforts into producing a fault tolerant system to compete withl< >> Tandem - they obviously want to confuse their marketeers. > H > Sun has just one closed source operating system with high availabilityA > features.  HP has three.  The market for VMS is overlapping the B > markets for HP-UX and NonStop.  Sun does not have the problem ofB > selling over than one closed source operating system in the same	 > market.? > D > David, I think you should read what Andrew and I were writing once > again. >l > Karsten Nyblad! > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot comy   Let me see.  OSsd  I HP re/sells 7, owns 5, acquired 3 of them via mergers. Has killed MPE andd Tru64 is in rundown mode.a   MPE was theirs to start with.cF Tru64 has one of the longest and twisted Unix histories of all unices.E And to make matters more bizarre for the youngsters, Tandem/NSK was asI startup, started by some HP engineers all thos many years ago.  HP owningtL Tandem is possibly even a greater contradiction than them owning VMS.  Hell,K the Tandem folks actively left from HP to startup, I guess because HP couldc not see their vision.e  G HP has consumed all these (and has got a gutache) to eliminate a big PC L competitor, CompaQ, which had recently before consumed Tandem and Digital inI order to become a real computer company (like HP and IBM).  CompaQ choked-D and spent all its money by losing it on PCs and milking the acquiredI technologies service and follow-on sales.  HP is now choking on Digital, E Tandem & Compaq and losing all its money selling PCs and  milking thenL acquired technologies service and follow-on sales, making money on printersF too though.  They are also making money by eliminating their corporateH knowledge bank (read firing everyone in sight) - a short sighted move at best.n  K There was never any business sense in owning all these OSs, they came along H as part of the price for killing CompaQ, which was a big competitor in aK market where Carley sees the future.  She does not understand or want theseo
 technologies.   L It is not hard to understand why HP have this problem of positioning, and it$ is equally easy to see the solution.E For lots of reasons, her only real option is to kill them one by one.v  
 MPE - dead Tru64 - declared deadp VMS - life supportC NSK - who knows, I think they are hiding in a basement lying doggo. < HP/SUX - Pinup boy for when MPE, VMS, NSK are finally buried= Linux - Flavour of the week and HP does not pay to develop itv? Windoze - Future of universe and HP does not pay to develop it..   Ramble ending.  K Sun does not have these problems.  They are a one trick pony, for better or.I worse.  Right now things look pretty bad for Sun, but they are still here/F which is more than can be said for the companies previously mentioned.  G Solaris aspires to be the VMS of Unix, maybe it will be one day - but Ij	 doubt it.   
 Dr. Dweeb.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:18:37 +0200a  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rjfr$2cv3$1@news.cybercity.dk>h   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:s@ > In article <c7qu6k$1f1j$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" > <nospam@nospam.com> writes:d >>5 >> "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message- >>L news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB314508@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... >>H >>> How often have folks on this list stated they wanted HP to advertize >>> OpenVMS more?s >>G >> Of course OpenVMS users will want HP to advertize OpenVMS.  But that ? >> does not necessarily mean that that would be a wise businesso> >> decission to HP to do that.  If HP looses HP-UX and NonStopE >> customers because HP seems unfocused then OpenVMS is going to sellpG >> many, many systems to pay for the ads and the lost sale of HP-UX ando >> NonStop systems.  >> >tA > In that case HP should drop all OS's and concentrate on being ai	 > printerl? > supplier. Everybody knows that is it's core market - all thise > computingm* > business is just making it lose focus :) >e0 > This loss of focus argument is a load of bull. >i  H "Specious" is the word - and though the theory is popular in MBA land, I' also believe it to be bovine excrement.p   >  >i > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >e >rD >>> Using your theory, HP would not have to advertise OpenVMS at all7 >>> since its technical capabilities would sell itself.t >>G >> VMS lost the workstation market to Sun, Appollo and Windows by being E >> to expensive.  The Sparc and Mips processors were twice as fast asvE >> the Vaxes. Then Digital got Alphas, but it did not introduce cheapu@ >> workstations on that platform.  These days OpenVMS cannot winF >> customers because everybody think it is going to be EOLed sometimes: >> during the next decade.  And then there is the price... >>G >>> Using your theory, can you expand on the technical advantages as toiC >>> why so many CIO's choose Windows solutions over UNIX solutions?HC >>> After all, they must have decided on technical reasons - right?E >>A >> Windows might be crap, but it is on that platform all the coolTC >> desktop user applications are.  And then it is cheap compared toDF >> other platforms.  Apple might have some cool computers, but you endG >> up paying considerably more. Workstations have always been much morenA >> expensive than Windows.  People will only pay so much more for  >> quality.I >>& >> The best can also be too expensive. >> >> Karsten Nyblad " >> ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:45:30 +0200e  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rl27$2eiu$1@news.cybercity.dk>    Bob Koehler wrote:@ > In article <c7qnkg$17ck$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" > <nospam@nospam.com> writes:c >rF >> When you chose an operating system you want to be sure that you canE >> buy new systems for many years.  Thus you want to be sure that the-C >> vendor actually wants to continue active development and sellingmG >> systems at competitive prices.  It is no easy decission to move to a C >> new operating system if you have a million lines of code as manym >> companies have. >> >uC >    When I choose a car I want to be sure that I can buy new partsaE >    for many years.  Thus I want to be sure that the vendor actuallylB >    wants to continue development and selling cars at competitiveG >    prices.  Its no easy decision to move to a new car manufacturer iflC >    I have hundreds of tools to maintain the old one as many shops  > have.   L Actually, unless the company actually goes broke, they are legally obligatedG to do so for a significant number of years, and if they want to stay in_6 business, a lot longer than that. (at least in Europe)  	 Dr. Dweebt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:47:55 +0200i  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rl6p$2ek0$1@news.cybercity.dk>e   JF Mezei wrote:t > Bob Koehler wrote:E >>    IBM has canceled the 360 in favor of the 370.  They canceld thenC >>    original AIX/PC2 combo, and radically changed AIX before theyeB >>    tried it again.  They haven't supported 026 card punches for >> decades.n >a >eF > Sorry, but the 360 is still alive today. 370->370->390->whatever theE > name is this week is the same architecture, just like the pentium 4-D > is the same architecture as the first pentium or the 8086 for that	 > matter.8 > E > Where there is a break is IBM's goal of merging all OSs into Power,5F > and at that point, this will signal the end of the 360 architecture. >4  7 What about the 5100 ? and that 10xx something or other.t   Dweeb.  E > Where IBM did "screw" customers was the system 34, 36, 38 which hadeA > purposefully been made inconopatible in case IBM were forced torA > divest, so that the new competitor wouldn't inherit the 360/MVSnE > jewels. Those were abandonned in favour of the AS400 machines whichw > then migrated to Power.  >fE > But the AS400 migrating to Power is no different than VMS migratingiF > to Alpha from VAX. It was an "upgrade". (as opposed to the downgrade2 > in the migration from Alpha to that IA64 thing).   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:39:22 GMT - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>-2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised@ Message-ID: <8b39cbd1f71cd5ab84a726b2cfdb073b@news.teranews.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:tI > In that case HP should drop all OS's and concentrate on being a printer I > supplier. Everybody knows that is it's core market - all this computing * > business is just making it lose focus :)  I Actually,. the core market is packaging ink cartridges and paper packets,t8 adding the HP logo and setting a very high price for it.  L The PC, printer and camera products are designed to drive demand for ink and photo paper.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 15:54:16 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised3 Message-ID: <yIuQmjIaUqkz@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  Z In article <c7qm9e$15ot$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes:  K > Please do not mix up how people make decision on buying products that are L > mainly sold on image with products like operating systems where people are? > much more likely to base their decision on technical reasons.o  C    Considering the market share of Windows, I don't see how you cant'    even start to type that last phrase.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 22:54:23 +0200l* From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rei1$25t6$1@news.cybercity.dk>y  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in messagep# news:c7r37m$7l0$1@news.mdx.ac.uk...sH > Which is why Sun has been busy trying to add VMS style clustering into Solaris D > over the last few years rather than putting all their efforts into producing a-G > fault tolerant system to compete with Tandem - they obviously want to0 confuseM > their marketeers.r  F Sun has just one closed source operating system with high availabilityK features.  HP has three.  The market for VMS is overlapping the markets for J HP-UX and NonStop.  Sun does not have the problem of selling over than one2 closed source operating system in the same market.  I David, I think you should read what Andrew and I were writing once again.r   Karsten Nyblad ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2004 16:05:09 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)O2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised3 Message-ID: <kL$bIy4UlCTL@eisner.encompasserve.org>D  Z In article <c7r8g5$1rgc$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes: > G > People care if they can show of their money driving a luxury car, but.I > a company cannot use the fact that it uses a luxury operating system tot > attract new customers.  C    Yes they can.  They can show it via thier reliability, security,cE    and all the other competitive advantages VMS gives them. Of courselH    they won't do it directlty, that would tell the competitors too much.  N > The market for cars is so different from the market of OSes that you have to( > be very careful when you compare them.  8    You keep claiming that, but you haven't shown it yet.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:01:26 GMT-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>r2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised@ Message-ID: <242b39f4397c01ef5e7522346b4ececc@news.teranews.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:D >    IBM has canceled the 360 in favor of the 370.  They canceld theB >    original AIX/PC2 combo, and radically changed AIX before theyJ >    tried it again.  They haven't supported 026 card punches for decades.    L Sorry, but the 360 is still alive today. 370->370->390->whatever the name isG this week is the same architecture, just like the pentium 4 is the same > architecture as the first pentium or the 8086 for that matter.  J Where there is a break is IBM's goal of merging all OSs into Power, and at= that point, this will signal the end of the 360 architecture.v  C Where IBM did "screw" customers was the system 34, 36, 38 which had J purposefully been made inconopatible in case IBM were forced to divest, soG that the new competitor wouldn't inherit the 360/MVS jewels. Those were@H abandonned in favour of the AS400 machines which then migrated to Power.  L But the AS400 migrating to Power is no different than VMS migrating to AlphaL from VAX. It was an "upgrade". (as opposed to the downgrade in the migration from Alpha to that IA64 thing).0   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:11:00 GMTr- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>i2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised@ Message-ID: <fb055b4be134143bd70a4b54e7f20a3f@news.teranews.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:C >    When I choose a car I want to be sure that I can buy new partstE >    for many years.  Thus I want to be sure that the vendor actually B >    wants to continue development and selling cars at competitive
 >    prices.      I I think this is quite different. When you buy a car, there is very little J baggage that you bring with you from the old to the new car which requiresL "compatibility". Because almost all cars in a continent use the same batteryJ voltage (and most in the world use 12V), it is very easy to "port" gadgets! such as a stereo from car to car.   M But otherwise, the only concern is not upgradability, but rather availabilityr of spare parts.i  I Actually, for cars, it isn't so much the availability of spare parts, but H rather their cost. And in a way, this is similar to computers. The wholeK system is made to encourage you to buy new hardware instead of keeping yourI! old hardware huffing and puffing.t  K Companies like HP and Dell would go belly up if an environmentalism mindsetmK were to take root and people would stop buying new computers IF upgrades ofs$ existing systems were much cheaper.   N But because of pricing of parts, people end up buying new PC, new monitors andJ a new license for Windows, which makes Microsoft very happy but landifills full of really nasty stuff.W   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:36:39 +02009  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rh15$2a74$1@news.cybercity.dk>d   Karsten Nyblad wrote:iB > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in7 > message news:GeHCYM$fmhMj@eisner.encompasserve.org... A >> In article <c7opdj$2a11$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad"  >> <nospam@nospam.com> writes: >>C >>> Now try being HP's upper management.  They have three operatingtG >>> systems for back office:  HP-UX, OpenVMS, and NonStop.  OpenVMS and E >>> NonStop are both in the market of high availability, and HP-UX isrG >>> getting some of these features from Tru64.  If HP market all three,eC >>> then customers will ask what HP really want and if HP is reallyt0 >>> committed to any of these operating systems. >>F >>    Who gives a damn about what HP wants?  When I'm buying a system,. >>    its about what _I_ want, not the vendor. >sE > When you chose an operating system you want to be sure that you cankD > buy new systems for many years.  Thus you want to be sure that theB > vendor actually wants to continue active development and sellingF > systems at competitive prices.  It is no easy decission to move to aB > new operating system if you have a million lines of code as many > companies have.d >s  = A million - You sound like Dr. Evil !  He had no clue either!o@ You are a few zeroes short for a very large number of companies.  D > Chosing an operating system is also chosing a business partner forB > years to come.  When you chose business partners, you try to getD > partner that want to take the partnership in the same direction as	 > you do.s  I Explain the paradox of boosting Linux (as you do) and using the "businessAG partner" argument against proprietary OSs as you do in this paragraph.    > F >>    Funny how these multiple product arguments only get used againstD >>    VMS. IBM sells MVS, AIX, Linux, ..., and nobody calls them not >>    commited to all of them. >eG > IBM has used 50 years to build customer trust in that if something is*F > supported by IBM, then they will not leave you while you are in deeb: > shit. HP has already canceled a couple of product lines. >c  K Would you like to know about the cancelled IBM product lines ??   I suspectMI you are too young to know too much.  I am sure there are others with long-I memories who can tell you about different machine architectures that have.H come and gone - created by IBM.  There are plenty of them.  Some of themJ lasted a long time, others less, but they died and IBM helped customers toD another product line or customers went somewhere else.  This productH life-cycle is true for all vendors - IBM is not immune and makes no suchL claims.  They kill products too and leave customers in exactly the amount of: shit which they can legally and financially get away with.  6 >>  Honda sells sedans, SUVs, sports cars, generators,G >>    lawn mowers, and I don't know how many models of motorcycles, yet E >>    no one claims Honda is not committed to them.  Kraft sells moreeG >>    kinds of foods than I care to think about, but we all think there  >>    serious about them.t >u > Se my answer to Kerry Main.( > G >>    Linux runs on 386, 486, Pentium, Alpha, PPC, ... (I admit I can't D >>    keep track of them all).  Shall we ask what does Mr. Torvaldis >>    really want? >tH > And how many of these are actively sold?  The first version of the 2.6E > kernel was only for x86.  Besides, there is an important difference>D > between open source and closed source software.  In later case you? > never know if the vendor decides to stop the product and drop G > support.  That can get you in real troubles.  On open source you known? > that if nobody else will support the code, then you can do it  > yourself.y  L The number of sites with the skills in house to maintain OSs is ridiculouslyJ small compared to the number of sites using computers.  This is a speciousJ argument that serious OpenSource boosters have long since relegated to the
 scrap bin.    	 Dr. Dweebw >d > Karsten Nyblad! > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:54:52 +0200e  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7ri3d$2bjg$1@news.cybercity.dk>7   Karsten Nyblad wrote:g4 > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message >eL news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB3144DB@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... >o9 >>> Now try being HP's upper management.  They have three4 >>> operating systems forM; >>> back office:  HP-UX, OpenVMS, and NonStop.  OpenVMS and  >>> NonStop are both inbA >>> the market of high availability, and HP-UX is getting some ofm >>> these features@ >>> from Tru64.  If HP market all three, then customers will ask >>> what HP really@ >>> want and if HP is really committed to any of these operating >>> systems.  HP-UX = >>> is so big that HP has to continue actively marketing that  >>> product.  NonStopo; >>> is so different from HP-UX that the two can be marketedB >>> currently without HP@ >>> seeming unfocused.  OpenVMS is cached between those two.  It >>> is not so muchH >>> better at high availability than HP-UX that you can easily explain a> >>> management type why a company should chose OpenVMS and not >>> HP-UX.  It doeso@ >>> not have the hardware platform with redundancy like NonStop. >>> That leavesy >>> OpenVMS in the dust. >>>r >>> Karsten Nyblad# >>> ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com- >>>- >> >> ROTFL ... >>F >> Thats like telling GM they only need to sell and promote one or, at >> the most two, vehicles ...s >>
 >> :-) :-) >DG > I just visited the Buick and Cadillac sites.  There is a link writtenUG > in a small font at the bottom of the page to other GM sites.  I thinknB > GM would like people not to think about the different car brands@ > coming from the same company.  A few days ago I could not findD > Daimler-Chryslers home page and tried the Maybach and the MercedesE > home pages.  There were no links to the companies other home pages. E > Besides, you may buy many different cars from one manufacturer, butd3 > usually they produce a limited number of engines.l >tG > We think (or at least claim) that we select car models based rationalrG > reasons, but in reality it has more to do about which signals we wantaB > to send.  Real men buy pick-ups, SUVs, or sports cars.  How manyC > really need to transport big things more than a couple of times asF > year?  How many need 4-wheel drive (except for driving in snow a fewA > times a year)?  How many need sports cars considering the speedhG > limits?  Most men would be better of with a sedan, but sedan does not-B > send the right image.  A company like VW sells the same car withG > small modifications using three brands, typically Audi, VW and Skoda,-E > and at very different price.  Why? Because that allows them to sello3 > the same car to three different groups of people.n >m  I All sports car owners I know have a sedan/SUV or similar as well.  SportshL cars are toys and meet separate market needs not met by family cars.  People/ just buy more than one car.  Like me, I have 4.   K There are primitive reasons why people like open top sports cars and sportseJ cars in general - they are seated in a place other than the frontal lobes.J Few family sedans have open tops and few have the same sensory feedback toI the driver.  Most sports cars are not as fast as an Audi A8, Mercedes 500gF (whatever the top of line is).  The sports car experience is not aboutJ absolute top speed and performance.  It is about sensory input stimulatingL part of original unevolved brain.  The same thrill is achieved in a go-kart.  G As for the conspicuous consumption aspects, they are again the same fora& sedans as well as SUVs, roadsters etc.   VW - you forgot SEAT  K Differential pricing is also related to where the vehicles are produced and J largely sold.  SEAT in spain, VW/Audi in Germany, SKODA in Czech Republic.D VW has also been fined heavily for differential pricing of identical? vehicles accross borders and their actions in maintaining thesea differentials.  J Who cares about details, conceptually, marketing of multiple products thatK meet essentially the same need is not new or particularly hard.  IBM as youHK note have done it successfully for years.  DEC did it in transitions and HP2K has demonstrated that it is not too good at it (or perhaps does not want toa+ be good at it as I believe to be the case).l  H HP sells a zilllion printers, almost all of which perform one function -A printing.  Here it is all about price points and perceived value.g  G > Please do not mix up how people make decision on buying products thatoE > are mainly sold on image with products like operating systems where2A > people are much more likely to base their decision on technicals
 > reasons. >>  J Linux is about image.  The image of free OpenSource code freeing us of the shackles of proprietary OSsyK Windows is about image. The freedom to innovate, do what you want with ease,
 blah blah. Unix is about image. Geeks   Backwards argument I think.S   Dr. Dweeb being a dweeb    > Karsten Nyblad! > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot comN   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:55:43 +0200'* From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7ri54$2bkl$1@news.cybercity.dk>e  + "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com> wrote in message.' news:c7rg81$28v0$1@news.cybercity.dk...t > Karsten Nyblad wrote:b/ > > <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message ' > > news:c7r37m$7l0$1@news.mdx.ac.uk... F > >> Which is why Sun has been busy trying to add VMS style clusteringG > >> into Solaris over the last few years rather than putting all theirSC > >> efforts into producing a fault tolerant system to compete with > > >> Tandem - they obviously want to confuse their marketeers. > >IJ > > Sun has just one closed source operating system with high availabilityC > > features.  HP has three.  The market for VMS is overlapping therD > > markets for HP-UX and NonStop.  Sun does not have the problem ofD > > selling over than one closed source operating system in the same > > market.f > > F > > David, I think you should read what Andrew and I were writing once
 > > again. > >  > > Karsten Nyblad# > > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot comx >a > Let me see.  OSse > K > HP re/sells 7, owns 5, acquired 3 of them via mergers. Has killed MPE and- > Tru64 is in rundown mode.: >5 > MPE was theirs to start with.hH > Tru64 has one of the longest and twisted Unix histories of all unices.G > And to make matters more bizarre for the youngsters, Tandem/NSK was arK > startup, started by some HP engineers all thos many years ago.  HP owningeG > Tandem is possibly even a greater contradiction than them owning VMS.B Hell,tG > the Tandem folks actively left from HP to startup, I guess because HP  couldt > not see their vision.e >>I > HP has consumed all these (and has got a gutache) to eliminate a big PCVK > competitor, CompaQ, which had recently before consumed Tandem and Digitald inK > order to become a real computer company (like HP and IBM).  CompaQ chokedPF > and spent all its money by losing it on PCs and milking the acquiredK > technologies service and follow-on sales.  HP is now choking on Digital,aG > Tandem & Compaq and losing all its money selling PCs and  milking theiL > acquired technologies service and follow-on sales, making money on printe rsH > too though.  They are also making money by eliminating their corporateJ > knowledge bank (read firing everyone in sight) - a short sighted move at > best.n  J It is very difficult to have the same company produce and sell low margin,K high volume and high margin, low volume products.  You have one part of thetE company trying to be as lean and mean as Dell and another part of the H company trying to be as service minded as IBM.  The result is a culturalI clash where neither part becomes good at what it is doing.   IBM has alsoOB had problems making money on PCs, and I think for the same reason.  J > Sun does not have these problems.  They are a one trick pony, for better orK > worse.  Right now things look pretty bad for Sun, but they are still here H > which is more than can be said for the companies previously mentioned. >>I > Solaris aspires to be the VMS of Unix, maybe it will be one day - but I  > doubt it.i  G Yes, but Linux has grown so big that all Unix vendors have had to loweriJ their margins.  Unix is loosing the small server market to Linux, but thatJ market generated lots of revenue.  I just do not see how Sun can return to black.   Karsten Nyblad ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 23:58:04 +0200   From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7ri99$2bm2$1@news.cybercity.dk>m   Karsten Nyblad wrote:s4 > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message >hL news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB314508@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... >WG >> How often have folks on this list stated they wanted HP to advertizen >> OpenVMS more? > F > Of course OpenVMS users will want HP to advertize OpenVMS.  But that> > does not necessarily mean that that would be a wise businessG > decission to HP to do that.  If HP looses HP-UX and NonStop customers E > because HP seems unfocused then OpenVMS is going to sell many, many C > systems to pay for the ads and the lost sale of HP-UX and NonStopa
 > systems. >fC >> Using your theory, HP would not have to advertise OpenVMS at alle6 >> since its technical capabilities would sell itself. >tF > VMS lost the workstation market to Sun, Appollo and Windows by beingD > to expensive.  The Sparc and Mips processors were twice as fast asD > the Vaxes. Then Digital got Alphas, but it did not introduce cheap? > workstations on that platform.  These days OpenVMS cannot wintE > customers because everybody think it is going to be EOLed sometimesw9 > during the next decade.  And then there is the price...- >   F We have heard that argument for over a decade now.  I wonder will this* decade be the one where it self fulfills ?  F >> Using your theory, can you expand on the technical advantages as toB >> why so many CIO's choose Windows solutions over UNIX solutions?B >> After all, they must have decided on technical reasons - right? >i@ > Windows might be crap, but it is on that platform all the coolB > desktop user applications are.  And then it is cheap compared toE > other platforms.  Apple might have some cool computers, but you end F > up paying considerably more. Workstations have always been much more@ > expensive than Windows.  People will only pay so much more for
 > quality.  H They will pay whatever price they peceive as the best value proposition.) The absolute price is largely irrelevant.(   >i% > The best can also be too expensive.l >  > Karsten Nyblad! > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:01:07 +0200l  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rif0$2c34$1@news.cybercity.dk>-   Karsten Nyblad wrote:14 > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message >oL news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB314508@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net... > G >> How often have folks on this list stated they wanted HP to advertizeg >> OpenVMS more? >yF > Of course OpenVMS users will want HP to advertize OpenVMS.  But that> > does not necessarily mean that that would be a wise businessG > decission to HP to do that.  If HP looses HP-UX and NonStop customersyE > because HP seems unfocused then OpenVMS is going to sell many, manytC > systems to pay for the ads and the lost sale of HP-UX and NonStopy
 > systems. > C >> Using your theory, HP would not have to advertise OpenVMS at all 6 >> since its technical capabilities would sell itself. > F > VMS lost the workstation market to Sun, Appollo and Windows by beingD > to expensive.  The Sparc and Mips processors were twice as fast asD > the Vaxes. Then Digital got Alphas, but it did not introduce cheap? > workstations on that platform.  These days OpenVMS cannot winuE > customers because everybody think it is going to be EOLed sometimes09 > during the next decade.  And then there is the price...R >YF >> Using your theory, can you expand on the technical advantages as toB >> why so many CIO's choose Windows solutions over UNIX solutions?B >> After all, they must have decided on technical reasons - right? >t@ > Windows might be crap, but it is on that platform all the coolB > desktop user applications are.  And then it is cheap compared toE > other platforms.  Apple might have some cool computers, but you end F > up paying considerably more. Workstations have always been much more@ > expensive than Windows.  People will only pay so much more for
 > quality. > % > The best can also be too expensive.w >   L Best and expensive are not causally related.  They are relative terms.  Your@ statement makes as much (read little) sense as the alternatives.   The worst can be too expensive The worst can be too cheap The best can be too cheap   2 "You can never bee to young, too thin or too rich"   > Karsten Nyblad! > ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot comh   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:28:28 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised) Message-ID: <c7rr3c$fng$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   Z In article <c7rei1$25t6$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes: >1, ><david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message$ >news:c7r37m$7l0$1@news.mdx.ac.uk...I >> Which is why Sun has been busy trying to add VMS style clustering intod >SolarisE >> over the last few years rather than putting all their efforts intos >producing aH >> fault tolerant system to compete with Tandem - they obviously want to >confuse >> their marketeers. >rG >Sun has just one closed source operating system with high availabilityaL >features.  HP has three.  The market for VMS is overlapping the markets forK >HP-UX and NonStop.  Sun does not have the problem of selling over than onev3 >closed source operating system in the same market.r >SJ >David, I think you should read what Andrew and I were writing once again. >r   I read it. lC The point was made that VMS clustering had no place because it was t> not fail-over "clustering" but didn't provide fault tolerance.L Whether HP had 3 or 10 operating systems spanning that range is not relevent to the point that I was making./M If VMS's solution has no place why would SUN and other Unix vendors have beeni2 pursuing VMS style clustering for the last decade.   Fail-Over clustering Fault ToleranceU and H clustering (VMS style with load balancing, single authentication domain, clustered filesystem etc)u   all have their places. e  / VMS's clustering is a general purpose solution. E Tandem non-stop fault tolerance is an extremely specialised solution.   O Tru64 was probably the closest that a Unix system has got to VMS clustering buth? it suffers from extreme limitations compared to VMS clustering.     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University       >Karsten Nybladi  >ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot com >e >o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:12:13 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised6 Message-ID: <40A187FD.8092A9DD@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  > Bob Koehler wrote:^ > > In article <c7opdj$2a11$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> writes: > >a > >eO > >>Now try being HP's upper management.  They have three operating systems for O > >>back office:  HP-UX, OpenVMS, and NonStop.  OpenVMS and NonStop are both ineP > >>the market of high availability, and HP-UX is getting some of these featuresO > >>from Tru64.  If HP market all three, then customers will ask what HP reallydI > >>want and if HP is really committed to any of these operating systems.e > >o > >tK > >    Who gives a damn about what HP wants?  When I'm buying a system, itsy+ > >    about what _I_ want, not the vendor.  > >    I have to agree with Bob here.   The _CUSTOMER_ is always right.l  = Show me where "it" ever said, "The vendor is always right"...l   > @ > Odd, the quality of your decision when reviewed in a couple of> > years time will in part be judged by what the vendor does in< > the years after the decision, not having any idea what the< > vendor wants (e.g their strategy) is foolish and will only( > result in poor decisions on your part.   Depends.  E If the system serves faithfully and produces the predicted results, I D doubt whether later analysis will show anything other than a foolish vendor.   - Rather like where VMS finds itself today, eh?-   -- a David J. Dachtera4 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 00:17:40 +0200t  From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7rje1$2cuf$1@news.cybercity.dk>o   Karsten Nyblad wrote:F0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message( > news:tdOdnSzIDPkKkTzdRVn-iQ@igs.net...A >> Mercedes has the Maybach. VW has the Phaeton. Rolls & Bentley,ME >> Ferrari & Maserati, all have cars that are wickedly expensive. AllVD >> of these manufacturers advertise these cars even though perfectly- >> serviceable alternatives exist at $30,000.H >oE > Most people do not care if they can buy the same car ten years fromeD > now. But any CIO cares if he can buy the same operating system tenF > years from now.  People care if they can show of their money drivingG > a luxury car, but a company cannot use the fact that it uses a luxuryi, > operating system to attract new customers. >lC > The market for luxury items is about showing how much money have.   L That is true for some, but certainly not true for all the items you considerF luxury.  You probably think a Mercedes Benz is a luxury car, yet it is> probably the best value proposition new car purchase there is.  I We I inclined, I could prove to you that the best value proposition for alF car owner is to buy a Mercedes Benz, rather than your Lada or skoda orI whatever it is you thinkn we should all drive.  Anyone who has done fleetpC management understands the sums - for Joe Familyman and the correcte preconditions - buy a Merc.   J > It is not about the quality or true value of these products.  Thus, richG > people buy Maybachs, Ferraris, etc. to show of their money.  The moreb@ > expensive the car is, the more valuable it is to its customers1 > regardless of what it costs to produce the car.   H You must be a f*****g Dane.  That country is full of envious people with opinions just like yours.o  K People buy Ferraris because they can.  Just like they buy Big Macs, becauseeL they can.  Get over it.  Curiously, every owner of a Ferrari I have met ownsI > 1 vehicle.  Almost no-one has a Ferrari as his first car.  Had you everiK seen the production line at Ferrari, you would know why they are expensive.rH They are not, relatively speaking, greatly more expensive in sales priceL relative to their production price than other vehicles, according to those IG trust on these matters.  Top line Mercedes Benz and Cadillacs etc. haverE almost certainly a higher markup from production cost than a Ferrari,-G because they are built on the same high speed production lines as theirdE smaller bretheren.  A snail can outrun the Ferrari production line byg4 several factors (a tru but largely useless factoid).  / Also, "quality" and "value" are relative terms.y  @ Just what is a MayBach ?? - I will need to resaerch this one :-)  F And before you start quoting Thorstein Veblen at me - I have read him.   >eF > The market for cars is so different from the market of OSes that you0 > have to be very careful when you compare them.  B This is a true statement, but you do a poor job of  supporting it.     The Dr. Dweeb.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:06:52 -0500.@ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised6 Message-ID: <40A186BC.8BD2B1B0@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > { > In article <40A03B23.E6D58AFE@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> writes:s- > >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:c > >> [snip]lP > >> There's only so much we can do on our own, which is why I think the effortsQ > >> need to be bent toward swaying HP.  The crucial difference, I think, betweenrO > >> this suggestion and previous efforts is that the idea is to go very public:O > >> with the issues.  With former proprietors of VMS, complaints at (eg) DECUShN > >> produced those "tiny flurries" to which you referred earlier - basically,Q > >> attempts to pacify the installed base.  I'm talking about enough PR activitye. > >> to, eventually, stir up the stockholders. > >i+ > >Potentially dangerous, legally speaking.t > >nA > >...more so than just trying to sell what they don't want sold.e > K > I really don't see the legal danger.  We're saying "this product is greatiF > and HP should make it more widely known."  Is there slander in that?  F I don't think slander is the issue. Anytime you go trying to mess withG securities - either their value or their holder(s) - you're treading on5G dangerous legal ground, IMO. SEC might not bother you, but why give the . legal mill any more ammunition than necessary?   -- o David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/I   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 07:29:15 +0200h* From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com>2 Subject: Re: You'll never guess what HP advertised- Message-ID: <c7scnd$30tn$1@news.cybercity.dk>o  + "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com> wrote in messageo' news:c7rh15$2a74$1@news.cybercity.dk...  > Karsten Nyblad wrote: D > > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in9 > > message news:GeHCYM$fmhMj@eisner.encompasserve.org...mC > >> In article <c7opdj$2a11$1@news.cybercity.dk>, "Karsten Nyblad"   > >> <nospam@nospam.com> writes: > >>G > > When you chose an operating system you want to be sure that you canaF > > buy new systems for many years.  Thus you want to be sure that theD > > vendor actually wants to continue active development and sellingH > > systems at competitive prices.  It is no easy decission to move to aD > > new operating system if you have a million lines of code as many > > companies have.a > >t >g? > A million - You sound like Dr. Evil !  He had no clue either! B > You are a few zeroes short for a very large number of companies.   Gee.  What a language.  F > > Chosing an operating system is also chosing a business partner forD > > years to come.  When you chose business partners, you try to getF > > partner that want to take the partnership in the same direction as > > you do.e >cK > Explain the paradox of boosting Linux (as you do) and using the "business I > partner" argument against proprietary OSs as you do in this paragraph.  >iF OK, Change "choosing an operating system" into "choosing a proprietaryL operating system."  Linux is not ready for the high availability market yet.K I am not trying to boost Linux at the expense of VMS.  Beside, nobody wouldsH use Linux for 24/7 systems without getting a support contract.  Then theH supporting company, e.g., RedHat, SuSE, or SUN is your business partner. > >eH > >>    Funny how these multiple product arguments only get used againstF > >>    VMS. IBM sells MVS, AIX, Linux, ..., and nobody calls them not  > >>    commited to all of them. > >sI > > IBM has used 50 years to build customer trust in that if something issH > > supported by IBM, then they will not leave you while you are in deeb< > > shit. HP has already canceled a couple of product lines. > >0 >oE > Would you like to know about the cancelled IBM product lines ??   Ig suspectiK > you are too young to know too much.  I am sure there are others with longpK > memories who can tell you about different machine architectures that havelJ > come and gone - created by IBM.  There are plenty of them.  Some of themL > lasted a long time, others less, but they died and IBM helped customers toF > another product line or customers went somewhere else.  This productJ > life-cycle is true for all vendors - IBM is not immune and makes no suchK > claims.  They kill products too and leave customers in exactly the amountt of< > shit which they can legally and financially get away with.  K Yes and so?  It does not change the fact that customers trust IBM more thanw they trust, e.g., HP.r  J > > And how many of these are actively sold?  The first version of the 2.6G > > kernel was only for x86.  Besides, there is an important difference F > > between open source and closed source software.  In later case youA > > never know if the vendor decides to stop the product and drophI > > support.  That can get you in real troubles.  On open source you knowoA > > that if nobody else will support the code, then you can do ite
 > > yourself.y >hA > The number of sites with the skills in house to maintain OSs isi ridiculouslyL > small compared to the number of sites using computers.  This is a speciousL > argument that serious OpenSource boosters have long since relegated to the > scrap bin.  G True.  But most bugs can be fixed without understanding more than a fewc hundred lines of code.   Karsten Nyblad ibpit1202 at sneakemail dot comn   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.262 ************************