1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 17 May 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 272       Contents:1 Re: Anyone here using products from this company? 1 Re: Anyone here using products from this company?  Re: BTCROUT ! Re: Reboot forces Shadowset Merge ! Re: Reboot forces Shadowset Merge ! Re: Reboot forces Shadowset Merge  Re: Suggested reading  Re: Suggested reading  Re: Suggested reading   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:48:50 -0500 & From: "John B." <norad869@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: Anyone here using products from this company?* Message-ID: <40A7E1C2.4040100@comcast.net>  %  > Dariush@realsoftstudio.com writes> G  > Could you please elaborate some more on the reasons why NetApp would $  > not be recommended for databases?8  > Please provide some reasonening so that I can verify.  ) NetApp does NAS - so I will call it that.   H Define your environment.  Batch processing?  Interactive I/O?  Document F sharing?  Heavy I/O?  Small I/O?  Stating that one is better than the G other requires a working knowledge of your I/O and an understanding of  E the NAS and SAN topologies.  You can not answer the NAS - SAN debate  " without answering these questions.  A NAS is better for file services, it is low I/O, small band-width. D SAN is better for database processing.  Block I/O, large band-width.  I We have done performance testing between NAS (NetAPP) and SAN  (SUN SAN)  H - in the block I/O arena and have found a staggering difference between 	 the two.    G Tomorrow will tell a different story - so don't take my word, here are  C some web links you can use to make your own judgment call.  Search  
 GOOGLE ...  6 http://www.dmreview.com/article_sub.cfm?articleId=2292" http://www.nas-san.com/differ.htmlU http://www.google.com/search?q=SAN+or+NAS+comparison&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:25:54 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>: Subject: Re: Anyone here using products from this company?6 Message-ID: <40A822B2.A0F91A3C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Dariush wrote: > F > Could you please elaborate some more on the reasons why NetApp would# > not be recommended for databases?  > 7 > Please provide some reasonening so that I can verify.  >  > Thanks again.  > 
 > Thanks much   F I/O throughput demand can easily exceed what even gigabit ethernet can provide.  @ It doesn't take a very up-scale installation to feel the lack of# multiple paths to database storage.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:32:33 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> Subject: Re: BTCROUT6 Message-ID: <40A82441.14E79D77@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   rok@nuk.uni-lj.si wrote: > # >  OpenVMS AXP V7.3-2, all patches.  > 3 > %BACKUP-I-BTCROUT, routine ODS-5 RMS SYNTAX ERROR  >  > $ help/mess BTCROUT @ > %MSGHLP-F-NOTFOUND, message not found in Help Message database > F >  OK, someday it will be found there. But right now, is there anybody# > to let me know what's that about?   G New one on me, but it *IS* "-I-" (informational) and the text even says E it's just a routine occurrence. Probably just an annoyance, but try a A restore and see if you get back what was originally in the source 	 location.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2004 10:55:34 -0700! From: tom@kednos.com (Tom Linden) * Subject: Re: Reboot forces Shadowset Merge= Message-ID: <ef893e89.0405160955.5c7d23f7@posting.google.com>   ~ "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<40A6720B.3D5B5D9B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... > Tom Linden wrote:  > > = > > I have three shadow sets on a BA356 attached to two nodes @ > > (7.3 and 7.3-1 alphas) If I shutdown and reboot another node< > > in the cluster it causes a merge operation on the shadowE > > sets, which takes 24 hours!  (74GB disks and bandwidth on BA3565)  > > & > > the shutdown command I ma using isI > >   SHUTDOWN == "@SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN 0 SHUTDOWN YES YES LATER NO NONE"  > > A > > Now if I manually dismount the shadow sets from the node I am E > > shutting down, then this doesn't happen, but in order to do that, 0 > > I have to stop the queue manager (open file) > G > There's your clue right there - an open file on the volume preventing  > clean dismount.  > J > You'll find there is no work-around for this. You'll have to get a clean' > dismount to prevent the shadow merge.   D Yes, I know,  but the problem is that QMAN$MASTER.DAT resides on oneH of the shadow sets, DSA0:, and the only way to close the file to allow aC clean dismount is to stop the cluster queue manager, which is not a  satifactory solution.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 22:30:59 +0200 ) From: Neale Hunt <nhunt1066@netscape.net> * Subject: Re: Reboot forces Shadowset Merge) Message-ID: <c88j1r$e8a$1@newshispeed.ch>   , Actually it's not as difficult as it sounds.  H You simply dismount one (or more if you have more that 2 members of the : shadow set) from one of the other cluster nodes using the E /policy=minicopy option.  And it does work, I used this today when I  D upgraded to VMS 7.3-2 on 2 clusters. Shadows set copies on HSZ were H completed in 10 minutes, merge would have taken till sometime tomorrow, E and I would only have been able to do one half of the cluster as the  . other half is 20+ Km away in a 2nd datacenter.G   If you want to reboot the cluster just allow sufficient time between  : node reboots for the minicopy to complete. Try it and see.E If you want to do a cluster reboot in one go then you are stuffed as  E mini-copy will not work, but you can force a copy by dismounting the  I additional members before rebooting - copy take about half the time of a   merge typically.       Tom Linden wrote:    > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> wrote in message news:<40A6720B.3D5B5D9B@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>... >  >>Tom Linden wrote:  >>< >>>I have three shadow sets on a BA356 attached to two nodes? >>>(7.3 and 7.3-1 alphas) If I shutdown and reboot another node ; >>>in the cluster it causes a merge operation on the shadow D >>>sets, which takes 24 hours!  (74GB disks and bandwidth on BA3565) >>> % >>>the shutdown command I ma using is H >>>  SHUTDOWN == "@SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN 0 SHUTDOWN YES YES LATER NO NONE" >>> @ >>>Now if I manually dismount the shadow sets from the node I amD >>>shutting down, then this doesn't happen, but in order to do that,/ >>>I have to stop the queue manager (open file)  >>G >>There's your clue right there - an open file on the volume preventing  >>clean dismount.  >>J >>You'll find there is no work-around for this. You'll have to get a clean' >>dismount to prevent the shadow merge.  >  > F > Yes, I know,  but the problem is that QMAN$MASTER.DAT resides on oneJ > of the shadow sets, DSA0:, and the only way to close the file to allow aE > clean dismount is to stop the cluster queue manager, which is not a  > satifactory solution.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:30:27 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>* Subject: Re: Reboot forces Shadowset Merge6 Message-ID: <40A823C3.6B787D6C@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>   Neale Hunt wrote:  > . > Actually it's not as difficult as it sounds. > I > You simply dismount one (or more if you have more that 2 members of the ; > shadow set) from one of the other cluster nodes using the  > /policy=minicopy option.    H Assumes that HSx controllers are at the root of the storage architectureE and that the controllers and the host o.s. version support it. A very # limited subset of what's out there.   > The o.p.'s config. is two Alphas on a shared SCSI bus - no HSx controllers in the scenario.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:58:43 +0200 * From: "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> Subject: Re: Suggested reading- Message-ID: <c88a4o$2t10$1@news.cybercity.dk>   J This seems to be free versions of the same article.  John, please confirm.  S http://www.cfo.com/article/1,5309,13719%7C%7CT%7C1401,00.html?f=home_todayinfinance   ' http://www.sophists.org/article280.html   C http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2647328   + "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com> wrote in message ' news:c887ik$2nto$1@news.cybercity.dk...  > This is a subscription item. >  > John Smith wrote:  > > The lunatic you work for > > May 6th 2004$ > > From The Economist print edition > >  > >  > > H > > If the corporation were a person, would that person be a psychopath? > >  > >  > >  > >  > L http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=S%27%2984%28Q%217%21%23%40%21
 > > %2C%0A >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:11:41 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Suggested reading, Message-ID: <ruKdnWw_m8fJjDXd4p2dnA@igs.net>   That's the one at cfo.com   F The Economist wrote the article from the perspective of 'socialism' orK 'paternalism' vs. 'capitalism', which is no surprise given the general bent 5 of The Economist (which I generally have no quarrel).   C But the article overlooks the aspect of many corporations, which is I basically in pop culture terms "Greed Is Good" (Gordon Gecko in the movie K "Wall Street"). The relentless pursuit of the bottom line isn't necessarily H good for the corporation's customers. Quarterly earnings expectations orK showing 'results' after a merger (HP / Compaq) often come at the expense of  customer relationships.   K In HP's terms, it would be, "Why should we care about enterprise customers? I They take forever to sell to, we don't make lots of money on them, and we K have to keep supporting what we sell for a long time. Better we should sell I printers and ink because the margins are higher, we can obsolete products L practically daily, and even if the customer doesn't throw their printer awayJ when we obsolete it, we still have them by the cojones when they buy ink."  L We shall wait and see what 'rennaisance' Mark Gonzalez can bring to OpenVMS,D and just how much rope carly(tm) has given him to hang himself with.        5 "Karsten Nyblad" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message ' news:c88a4o$2t10$1@news.cybercity.dk... L > This seems to be free versions of the same article.  John, please confirm. >  > L http://www.cfo.com/article/1,5309,13719%7C%7CT%7C1401,00.html?f=home_todayin finance  > ) > http://www.sophists.org/article280.html  > E > http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2647328  > - > "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com> wrote in message ) > news:c887ik$2nto$1@news.cybercity.dk...   > > This is a subscription item. > >  > > John Smith wrote:  > > > The lunatic you work for > > > May 6th 2004& > > > From The Economist print edition > > >  > > >  > > > J > > > If the corporation were a person, would that person be a psychopath? > > >  > > >  > > >  > > >  > >  > L http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=S%27%2984%28Q%217%21%23%40%21 > > > %2C%0A > >  > >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 21:40:09 -0500 @ From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net> Subject: Re: Suggested reading5 Message-ID: <40A82609.2A72903@NeOaSrPtAhMlNiOnWk.net>    John Smith wrote:  >  > That's the one at cfo.com  > H > The Economist wrote the article from the perspective of 'socialism' orM > 'paternalism' vs. 'capitalism', which is no surprise given the general bent 7 > of The Economist (which I generally have no quarrel).  > E > But the article overlooks the aspect of many corporations, which is K > basically in pop culture terms "Greed Is Good" (Gordon Gecko in the movie M > "Wall Street"). The relentless pursuit of the bottom line isn't necessarily J > good for the corporation's customers. Quarterly earnings expectations orM > showing 'results' after a merger (HP / Compaq) often come at the expense of  > customer relationships.  > M > In HP's terms, it would be, "Why should we care about enterprise customers? K > They take forever to sell to, we don't make lots of money on them, and we M > have to keep supporting what we sell for a long time. Better we should sell K > printers and ink because the margins are higher, we can obsolete products N > practically daily, and even if the customer doesn't throw their printer awayL > when we obsolete it, we still have them by the cojones when they buy ink." > N > We shall wait and see what 'rennaisance' Mark Gonzalez can bring to OpenVMS,F > and just how much rope carly(tm) has given him to hang himself with.  D If a corporation can be a psychopath, that would make Micro$slop theD "Charles Manson" of the corporate world, with hp close behind as the
 "Son of Sam".   F Seriously, to borrow from the Bible, no one can serve two masters. One will always be despised.  G In the corporate case, one cannot be a good citizen and a good business D man because the two are incompatible. To serve the bottom line meansH ruthless greed with no human or moral expense spared, where to be a good! citizen means quite the opposite.   F Stiking a balance is, at present, beyond the reach of today's businessE schools, as evidenced by reports in the media since, well, quite some 	 time now.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.272 ************************                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    b></font> 
 </td></tr> <td valign="top">  <!-- <I>None.</I> -->  <tr> <td valign="top"> ) <a href="httpd85b1.zip">HTTPD85B1.ZIP</a> & <br><font size="-1">07-MAY-2004</font>* <font color="#ff0000"><b>RECENT</b></font> </td>  <td valign="top" align="left">  <font size="-1">1.2MB</font><br>B <a href="httpd85b1.txt"><i><font size="-1">contents</font></i></a> </td> 	 <td></td>  <td valign="top"> L First BETA for WASD v8.5.  Requires an existing installation of WASD v8.1 or later.  Please read  <A HREF="http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/src/httpd85/$$$_readme_85beta.txt">http://wasd.vsm.com.au/ht_root/src/httpd85/$$$_readme_85beta.txt</A>  carefully before proceding.  </td>  </tr>  </td>  </tr>   O <!-- ...................................................................... -->    <tr><td></td></tr>   <tr><td colspan="4">0 <font size=+1><b><u>WASD-Specific</u></b></font>
 </td></tr>   <tr> <td valign="top"> ) <a href="htdir011c.zip">HTDIR011C.ZIP</a> & <br><font size="-1">30-APR-2002</font> </td>  <td valign="top" align="left">  <font size="-1">2.6MB</font><br>B <a href="htdir011c.txt"><i><font size="-1">contents</font></i></a> </td> 	 <td></td>  <td valign="top"> $ <b>&quot;Archive Browsers&quot;.</b>O <br>Thanks to Alex Ivanov (<A HREF="mailto:S&B@S-and-B.ru">S&B@S-and-B.ru</A>), I this package allows BCK (backup saveset), TAR and  ZIP archive browsing.  , Requires WASD 8.2 or later and RTEset V1.1C.1 The primary download page (with demonstration) is T <a href="http://www.s-and-b.ru/en/download/">http://www.S-and-B.ru/en/download/</a>. </td>  </tr> 	 <tr></tr>    <tr> <td valign="top"> + <a href="rteset011c.zip">RTESET011C.ZIP</a> & <br><font size="-1">30-APR-2002</font> </td>  <td valign="top" align="left"> <font size="-1">56kB</font><br> C <a href="rteset011c.txt"><i><font size="-1">contents</font></i></a>  </td> 	 <td></td>  <td valign="top">  <b>RTE Support</b>U <br>Thanks again to Alex Ivanov (<A HREF="mailto:S&B@S-and-B.ru">S&B@S-and-B.ru</A>), N this kit provides a number of Run-