1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 24 Nov 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 652       Contents:< Re: Any reason why MSL5026S2 wouldn't want to show me tapes?< Re: Any reason why MSL5026S2 wouldn't want to show me tapes?0 AS200 machine check, D-cache parity error (long)" RE: Cross-platform Backup Solution DEC retail stores in the 1980s" Re: DEC retail stores in the 1980s" Re: DEC retail stores in the 1980s! Re: DEC-C and DECwindows includes ! Re: DEC-C and DECwindows includes ! Re: DEC-C and DECwindows includes ! RE: DECnet positively in the news ! Re: DECnet positively in the news ! RE: DECnet positively in the news ! RE: DECnet positively in the news  Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! DS10 SRM console: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]6 Re: f$device( "*", "DISK", , ) v. "ESS1888 AudioDrive"" Re: FAST BOOT OF SIMH VAX Emulator" Re: FAST BOOT OF SIMH VAX Emulator+ Re: From the Department of Patent Stupidity + Re: From the Department of Patent Stupidity P Re: interesting take on Olsen's "no reason for any individual tohave a computer P Re: interesting take on Olsen's "no reason for any individual tohave a computer  Re: My home page2 Need current Rdb customers for trade press article, Re: Online forums for former digits/deccies?, Re: Online forums for former digits/deccies? Re: OpenVMS Support Chart ?  Re: OpenVMS Support Chart ?  Re: OpenVMS Support Chart ?  Re: OT: Joke of the week RE: OT: Joke of the week Re: OT: Joke of the week Re: OT: Joke of the week RE: OT: Joke of the week+ Print Tray Definitions with HP 4101 Printer 1 Re: reporter inquiry: Is HP selling AlphaServers? 1 Re: reporter inquiry: Is HP selling AlphaServers? ' Re: SYS$GETMSG bug ( RADRMOD or OPCDEC) ) VAX Server 4000/200 not seeing it's drive - Re: VAX Server 4000/200 not seeing it's drive - VMS stand alone backup is what in MS Windows? 1 Re: VMS stand alone backup is what in MS Windows? 1 Re: VMS stand alone backup is what in MS Windows? D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.D Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:39:09 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)E Subject: Re: Any reason why MSL5026S2 wouldn't want to show me tapes? 6 Message-ID: <00A3B503.6B58A814@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  m In article <23NOV04.09174646@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes: D >In a previous article, Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:( >->SLOT:           9               Empty >->  >->but not a full one: >-> # >->$robot show robot gka300 slot 10 B >->SHOW Slot 10 failed on gka300: Operating system specific error. >-> . >->The robot won't tell me about drive status: >-> # >->$robot show robot gka300 drive 0 B >->SHOW Drive 0 failed on gka300: Operating system specific error. > C >Do your tapes have barcode labels on them in the correct position?   M Interesting.  They do have barcode labels on them, which were (to the best of P my understanding) working when the library was connected to the Windows system. L I can see the labels by eye, so I know they're on there.  I believe - it's aN quarter-mile walk to the tape drive, and I have an Achilles tendon thing goingG on, so I'm not going back right now - that I was able to see the labels H identified from the front panel display when I played with it yesterday.   However, MRU doesn't see 'em:    $robot find robot gka300 cart *  TRANSPORT:      0       Empty      $ robot show robot gka300 slotD SHOW Slot 0 to 10 failed on gka300: Operating system specific error.E SHOW Slot 11 to 21 failed on gka300: Operating system specific error. E SHOW Slot 22 to 24 failed on gka300: Operating system specific error.      -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:41:47 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)E Subject: Re: Any reason why MSL5026S2 wouldn't want to show me tapes? 6 Message-ID: <00A3B503.C9541C8A@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ] In article <cnvtfq$hu0$1@newslocal.mitre.org>, lewis@PROBE.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) writes:  >winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) writes in article <00A3B450.1C4C0C41@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> dated Tue, 23 Nov 2004 03:15:36 GMT: K >>Does this make sense?  Does anyone have any clues for me?  Quick scan  of O >>user's guide (located under www.hp.com/go/storage after a kind pointer from a M >>comp.os.vms poster) didn't have anything that leapt out at me as addressing  >>this problem.  > M >I have one more clue to give on this subject.  My drive has a mode which you M >can set from the LCD console where it delivers the tapes sequentially to the K >drive (i.e. DISMOUNT/UNLOAD causes the robot to load a fresh tape from the J >next slot) rather than letting the ROBOT command do it.  I don't rememberL >the name of the feature, but it needs to be off in order to randomly access >the tapes like you want.   J I saw that discussion earlier and poked around in the LCD display, withoutO finding it.  (Maybe it's a Service option?  I don't have the service password.)   N _However_, loading seems to work, and I can confirm that a tape that the robotK thought it put in the drive was deemed by the machine status display of the E front panel to actually be in the drive, so I think it must be in the  non-Sequential mode.   Thanks, though.    -- Alan    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 15:17:53 -0800& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)9 Subject: AS200 machine check, D-cache parity error (long) = Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0411231517.3fb79c07@posting.google.com>   E Any reasonably informed opinion appreciated.  I haven't had any other E crashes (recently at least).  The system was in light use at the time D of the crash (editing a small file).  Here's the error log entry.  IE have some spare components (CPU, memory, cables)to try if needed, but E I haven't seen this type of cache error before (there's no removeable 7 cache on the MLB, but D-cache is on the CPU, isn't it?)   A All the fans are running, vents are clear, and there's no sign of  temperature issues.    Rich   ===========   , Logging OS                        1. OpenVMS* System Architecture               2. Alpha+ OS version                           V7.3-2 $ Event sequence number          7721.9 Timestamp of occurrence              23-NOV-2004 16:36:04 5 Time since reboot                    6 Day(s) 6:08:01 + Host name                            RISING   ; System Model                         AlphaStation 200 4/233   0 Entry Type                       23. Cache Error    # Byte Count                    x02E8 # Processor Specific Offset x00000110 # System Specific Offset    x000001A0 9 PAL Error Type Code       x00000092  D-Cache Parity Error # PAL Frame Revision        x00000001  - ALPHA CHIP REGISTERS -+ PALTEMP1                  x0000000000002000 + PALTEMP2                  x001144F800000004 + PALTEMP3                  xFFFFFFFF81408150 + PALTEMP4                  x0000000000000000 + PALTEMP5                  x0000000000000001 + PALTEMP6                  xFFFFFFFF82348000 + PALTEMP7                  x0000000000004200 + PALTEMP8                  x0000000000000400 + PALTEMP9                  x0000000000000800 + PALTEMP10                 x000036CA48B4A191 + PALTEMP11                 x000000007B96A1F8 + PALTEMP12                 x000000007FF87A40 + PALTEMP13                 xFFFFFFFF81008AC8 + PALTEMP14                 x000000000000800A + PALTEMP15                 xFFFFFFFF8113A0B0 + PALTEMP16                 x0000000000000698 + PALTEMP17                 x00000000000001B8 + PALTEMP18                 xFFFFFFFF77767D00 + PALTEMP19                 x0000000000000000 + PALTEMP20                 x0000066C00000000 + PALTEMP21                 x0000000000000002 + PALTEMP22                 xFFFFFFFF81408158 + PALTEMP23                 xFFFFFFFF8100E100 + PALTEMP24                 xFFFFFFFF81394000 + PALTEMP25                 x0000000000010000 + PALTEMP26                 x000000007FF88000 + PALTEMP27                 x0000000000000000 + PALTEMP28                 x000000000B6B2000 + PALTEMP29                 xFFFFFEFC00000000 + PALTEMP30                 x0000000000F10000 + PALTEMP31                 x000000000B994080 + Exception Address Reg     xFFFFFFFF8000A50E =                                Exception Address Reg Provides  Information B                                   About The Most Recent Exception.<                                Address Points to Native-Mode Instruction <                                If Machine Check or Math Trap
 Exception,E                                   PC in Exception Address is Correct. 7                                Last Exception Addr PC:   x3FFFFFFFE0002943 + Exception Summary Reg     x4672041345C01C8E C                                Last Exception:  Software Completion A                                                 Invalid Operation F                                                 Floating Inexact ErrorD                                Exception Mask Reg IPR Window Bit Set+ Exception Mask Reg        x441F0410C3FFFFF1 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I0 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I4 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I5 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I6 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I7 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I8 C                           Exception Operation Result in Register I9 D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I10D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I11D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I12D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I13D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I14D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I15D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I16D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I17D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I18D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I19D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I20D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I21D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I22D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I23D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I24D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I25D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I30D                           Exception Operation Result in Register I31C                           Exception Operation Result in Register F4 D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F10D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F16D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F17D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F18D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F19D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F20D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F26D                           Exception Operation Result in Register F30+ Icache Ctrl & Status Reg  x001144F800000004 7                           Performance Counters Disabled C                           Empty Wrt Buffer Before Issuing Next Inst @                           Branch Prediction Selection: Not Taken/                           JSR Stack is Disabled <                           Instructions Can Only Single IssueD                           If Not in PALmode, Executing Reserved InstD                              Opcode Will Result in OPCDEC Exception.D                           Super Page Istream Memory Mapping DisabledC                           Float Point Inst Will Cause FEN Exception D                           Icache Addr Space Numb:  x0000000000000000+ PALcode Base Address Reg  x0000000000008000 B                           PALcode Base Address:  x0000000000000002+ Hardware Int Enable Reg   x00000001FFC014E0 7                           CRD Error Interrupts Disabled D                           CPU Hrdw Interrupts Enabled Irq_h Pins 0,2D                           CPU Hrdw Interrupts Enbld Irq_h Pins 3,4,5D                           Performance Cntr 0 & 1 Interrupts Disabled9                           Serial Line Interrupts Disabled D                           Software Interrupts Enbld Level 9,10,11,12C                           Software Interrupts Enbld Levels 13,14,15 D                           AST Interrupts Enbld in Kernel, Executive,7                              Supervisor, and User Mode. + Hardware Int Request Reg  x0000000000000000 C                           NO Hrdw Int Req With Companion Enable Set D                           NO Softw Int Req With Companion Enable SetB                           NO AST Int Req With Companion Enable Set+ Memory Management CSR     x0000000000005BC1 D                           MMCSR Valid Only on Mem Mgt Err, DTB Miss,A                              D-Stream Fault, Dcache Parity Error. B                           D-Stream Reference Error Caused by WriteA                           Last Faulting Instruction RA Field: R28 C                           Last Faulting Instruction Opcode Follows: 6                              x2D - STQ  Store Quadword+ (Data) Cache Status Reg   x0000000000000003 D                           This is EV45 Cache Status Register(C_STAT)C                           EV45 Chip is Production Version of 21064A :                           Last Load or Store Missed Dcache+ Cache Address Reg         x00000007FFFFFFFF + Abox Control Reg          x000000000000940E B                           Machine Checks Enabled for Uncorr Errors0                           CRD Interrupts EnabledC                           Single Entry Icache Stream Buffer Enabled D                           Lock Operation Conforms to Alpha Architect(                           Dcache Enabled2                           16K Byte Dcache SelectedD                           Double Invalidate: Both EV45 Dcache BlocksC                              Addressed By iAdr_h<12:5> Invalidated. + Bus Interface Status Reg  x0000000000003440 D                           PARITY ERROR  In QW3 of Primary Cache FillA                              Block Hexaword During a Dcache Fill. + Bus Interface Address Reg x0000000008E11520 D                           Address Only Valid if Bus Interface StatusC                              Register Error Bit 0,1,2, or 3 is Set. B                           BIU Addr adr_h<33:5>:  x00000000004708A9+ Bus Interface Control Reg x0000000810002225 9                           External Cache (Bcache) Enabled D                           PARITY MODE: External Cache Parity EnabledA                           Cache Rams are Output Enable Controlled @                           Ext Cache Rd Access Time: 3 CPU Cycles@                           Ext Cache Wrt Cycle Time: 3 CPU Cycles<                           Size of External Cache:  256 KbyteA                           Ext Cache For Phys Addr Quad 3 Disabled D                           Ext Cache Rd Time Controlling Bcache ReadsC                           Ext Cache Wrt En Ctrl:  x0000000000000001 + Fill Syndrome Reg         x0000000000000001 C                           IF ECC MODE (Bus Intf Ctl Reg Bit 1 Set), A                              Low LW of Quadword Check Bit 00 Err. D                           IF PARITY MODE(Bus Intf Ctl Reg Bit 1 Clr):                              Low LW of Quadword Corrupted.B                           No Error in Upper Long Word of Quad Word+ Fill Address Reg          x0000000008E11520 C                           Addr Only Valid if Bus Interface Stat Reg D                              ECC(Bit 8) or PARITY(Bit 10) Error Set.D                           Cache Blk Phy Adr<33:5>  x00000000004708A9+ Virtual Address Reg       x00000000000061D0 D                           Dstream FLT/DTB Miss VA  x00000000000061D0+ Bcache Tag Reg            x000000000040B794 ?                           Last Bcache Access Resulted in a Miss C                           Parity Bit for Bcache Tag Status Bits Clr 4                           Bcache Tag  Dirty Bit  Set7                           Bcache Tag  Shared Bit  Clear 4                           Bcache Tag  Valid Bit  SetC                           Bcache Tag Addrress  Parity Bit  Asserted >                           Tag Being Probed:  x00000000000005BC  + coma_gcr                  x000000006D8D00A4 &                           DMA Priority)                           64 bit wide MEM (                           Bcache enabled,                           Bcache long writes+ coma_edsr                 x0000000000002140 + coma_ter                  x000000006D8DFFF8 =                           sysTag<21:17> =   x0000000000007FFC + coma_elar                 x000000007D810000 E                           sysBus<20:5> at time of e x0000000000000000 + coma_ehar                 x000000007D810800 E                           sysBus<33:21> at time of  x0000000000000800 + coma_ldlr                 x000000007D819CB8 E                           sysBus<20:5> last locked  x0000000000009CB8 + coma_ldhr                 x000000007D810006 E                           sysBus<31:21> last locked x0000000000000006 + coma_base0                x000000007D810000 C                           Reg Base Adr <33:23> =  x0000000000000000 + coma_base1                x000000007D810200 C                           Reg Base Adr <33:23> =  x0000000000000100 + coma_base2                x000000007D810400 C                           Reg Base Adr <33:23> =  x0000000000000200 + coma_cnfg0                x000000007D810007 $                           Bank Valid-                           Bank Size =  128 MB A                           Column Adr Selection  x0000000000000000 + coma_cnfg1                x000000006D8D0007 $                           Bank Valid-                           Bank Size =  128 MB A                           Column Adr Selection  x0000000000000000 + coma_cnfg2                x000000006D8D0007 $                           Bank Valid-                           Bank Size =  128 MB A                           Column Adr Selection  x0000000000000000   + epic_dcsr                 xFFFFFFFF800C001D 4                           Translation buffer enabled*                           Prefetch enabled3                           Disable correctable error %                           Pass 2 Chip %                           Full Bypass 5                           PCI Cycle Type =   IO Write + epic_pear                 x0000000001020D80 >                           PCI error address  x0000000001020D80+ epic_sear                 x0000000000084DE0 ;                           DMA Address =   x00000000000084DE + epic_tbr1                 x0000000000E80000 D                           Translation Base Adr =   x0000000000007400+ epic_tbr2                 x0000000000000000 D                           Translation Base Adr =   x0000000000000000+ epic_pbr1                 x00000000000C0000 0                           Scatter/Gather Enabled(                           Window Enabled9                           PCI Base Adr  x0000000000000000 + epic_pbr2                 x0000000040080000 1                           Scatter/Gather Disabled (                           Window Enabled9                           PCI Base Adr  x0000000000000400 + epic_pmr1                 x000000003FF00000 5                           PCI Mask  x00000000000003FF + epic_pmr2                 x000000003FF00000 5                           PCI Mask  x00000000000003FF + epic_harx1                xFFFFFFFF80000000 D                           PCI_ad - memory space =  x0000000000000010+ epic_harx2                x0000000000000000 D                           PCI_ad - memory space =  x0000000000000000+ epic_pmlt                 x00000000000000FF 7                           Master Latency Timer =   255. + epic_tag0                 x0000000001020000 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000204 + epic_tag1                 x000000000100A000 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000201 + epic_tag2                 x0000000001001000 %                           Entry Valid 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000200 + epic_tag3                 x0000000001011000 %                           Entry Valid 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000202 + epic_tag4                 x0000000001019000 %                           Entry Valid 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000202 + epic_tag5                 x000000000100B000 %                           Entry Valid 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000201 + epic_tag6                 x0000000001021000 %                           Entry Valid 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000204 + epic_tag7                 x0000000001018000 5                           pci_page  x0000000000000202 + epic_data0                x0000000000002012 5                           cpu_page  x0000000000000804 + epic_data1                x00000000000003C2 5                           cpu_page  x00000000000000F0 + epic_data2                x0000000000000FFA 5                           cpu_page  x00000000000003FE + epic_data3                x0000000000000FD0 5                           cpu_page  x00000000000003F4 + epic_data4                x0000000000001144 5                           cpu_page  x0000000000000451 + epic_data5                x00000000000003C2 5                           cpu_page  x00000000000000F0 + epic_data6                x0000000000000FB2 5                           cpu_page  x00000000000003EC + epic_data7                x0000000000001144 5                           cpu_page  x0000000000000451    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:29:17 +0000 % From: Alan Fay <alan.fay@veritas.com> + Subject: RE: Cross-platform Backup Solution 4 Message-ID: <co032r$1st$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>   	  > Date: 2004-11-11 20:39:26 PST + > From: Yong Boon, Lim (y0ngb00n@yahoo.com) * > Subject: Cross-platform Backup Solution  > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms  > I > Does anyone of you know any cross-platform backup product which support  > Windows and OpenVMS? >  > Thank you! >  > Yong Boon  >     
 Yong Boon,  ? You may want to take a look at VERITAS NetBackup. The NetBackup < User's Guide for OpenVMS is available from VERITAS support:-  B ftp://ftp.emea.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/     nbu_v5_0_vms_pdf.zip   Alan Fay VERITAS Software Corporation   Roseville Engineering    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 19:10:34 -0800$ From: leeroth@my-deja.com (Lee Roth)' Subject: DEC retail stores in the 1980s < Message-ID: <d0e744c9.0411231910.3ddb521@posting.google.com>  * Speaking of retail... in the pre-PC era...  5 Anyone remember the DEC retail stores? A few of these 7 stores appeared about the time that the "Super Trio" of 3 systems all appeared in the same form-factor boxes:   2  The Rainbow (8088/Z80) - http://tinyurl.com/6hc4f:  The Professional (PDP11-based) - http://tinyurl.com/4ftfn=  DECmate II (PDP8-on-a-chip based) - http://tinyurl.com/6eksz   = I think all of the stores folded up within a year of opening- = how many stores were there (at max) and what cities were they  in?   9 As I recall the stores only wanted to deal with the above ; 3 systems and supporting accessories - if you tried to walk ( in and buy a VT100 they turned you away.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:55:43 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Re: DEC retail stores in the 1980s , Message-ID: <41A4062D.FB1277CA@teksavvy.com>   Lee Roth wrote: 7 > Anyone remember the DEC retail stores? A few of these 9 > stores appeared about the time that the "Super Trio" of 5 > systems all appeared in the same form-factor boxes:   B In canada, there was a chain of stores called "DataTerminal Mart".  G Bought a canadian VT52 clone (Cybernex terminal) and a 300bps accoustic G coupler modem from them in 1981. They had an actual store in a downtown L shopping mall. They also had a PDP11-in-a-VT-100 product on display (but was1 too expsnive for me as a student entering uni :-)   N Later, that stored moved to industrial park offices selling only to commercial acocunts and disapeared.  K Meanwhile, the few stores that carried Commodore Pet and Apple II grew into K chains here (such as Compucentre) and many still exist today. There was one N shop that "rented" software for the day. When the government decided that thisK was just too obvious a crime (copying software), they were shut down by the M RCMP, but re-emerged as a bona-fide computer store and is now part of a chain  20 years later.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:11:31 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>+ Subject: Re: DEC retail stores in the 1980s + Message-ID: <41A409F3.81EB6F78@comcast.net>    Lee Roth wrote:  > , > Speaking of retail... in the pre-PC era... > 7 > Anyone remember the DEC retail stores? A few of these 9 > stores appeared about the time that the "Super Trio" of 5 > systems all appeared in the same form-factor boxes:  > 4 >  The Rainbow (8088/Z80) - http://tinyurl.com/6hc4f< >  The Professional (PDP11-based) - http://tinyurl.com/4ftfn? >  DECmate II (PDP8-on-a-chip based) - http://tinyurl.com/6eksz  > ? > I think all of the stores folded up within a year of opening- ? > how many stores were there (at max) and what cities were they  > in?  > ; > As I recall the stores only wanted to deal with the above = > 3 systems and supporting accessories - if you tried to walk * > in and buy a VT100 they turned you away.  G Yeah - selective short-sightedness has always been one of the hallmarks D of Digital and its successors (though "success" is perhaps the wrong: root word, and I don't have the opposite handy right now).   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:28:07 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: DEC-C and DECwindows includes3 Message-ID: <G0qKAAPNS2tD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <41A30FEA.4144D51D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:R > Compiling a decwindows application takes a lot longer than regular applications. > M > To my dismay, I have found that modules include many other modules, modules ) > which would have already been included.   B    I remember when this was introduced.  Early versions of the X11C    include files on VMS didn't have this.  About X11R5 or so, bang, 3    compile times went sky high.  This is the cause.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:31:15 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: DEC-C and DECwindows includes3 Message-ID: <+Usu13gXCScJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <41A34B83.754F1E85@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Ed Vogel wrote:  >> > #define __STDLIB_LOADED 1 > I >>     Note that to do the include-once optimization, the headers must be  >>     guarded properly. > M > Does the compiler look for __<module_name>_LOADED to be defined, and if so,  > ignores the include ?  > P > In the case of the XM.H module, there is no XM__LOADED defined. They do define > _Xm_h though.   ;    The compiler treats the traditional #ifdef, #endif which H    start and end header files the same as any other #ifdef, #endif pair.        ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:47:07 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> * Subject: Re: DEC-C and DECwindows includes, Message-ID: <41A3BDEB.576F39C1@teksavvy.com>   Ed Vogel wrote: M >     detects when it is about to open the same file again (it keep a list of  > all the files I >     it's opened).  If that file then has the include-once property, the  > compiler skips >     opening/reading it.   L Wow, quite interesting. So the slowness of compiling X apps is really due to1 just the includes being long and tedious. Thanks.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:35:35 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: RE: DECnet positively in the news3 Message-ID: <8YUwpR8lwDJF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <00A3B4D4.C2AD6B82@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  > 6 > Anybody here know where I might get DECnet for OS X?  >    Commercially I'd try KiResearch.  Their KiNet is a Phase IV7    implementation that they sell for lots of platforms.   B    Freebe?  I'd grab the Linux implementation, it ought to port to    OS X fairly easily.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:36:44 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: Re: DECnet positively in the news3 Message-ID: <JuHba2IxFkdk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <6268487@MVB.SAIC.COM>, "GWDVMS::MOELLER" <moeller@gwdvms.dnet.gwdg.de> writes:  C > I have some consolation for those not as fortunate as Mr. Koehler I > (e.g. not as well-funded, or simply lacking the time to install DECnet, J > or even using some esoteric operating system unknown to Mr. Koehler) ...  G    OK, so what are you running that you think you can't get DECnet for?    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 15:46:30 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) * Subject: RE: DECnet positively in the news3 Message-ID: <0TrWsYGXEtgA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <8YUwpR8lwDJF@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: W > In article <00A3B4D4.C2AD6B82@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >>  7 >> Anybody here know where I might get DECnet for OS X?  > @ >    Commercially I'd try KiResearch.  Their KiNet is a Phase IV9 >    implementation that they sell for lots of platforms.   C Sometime after System 7.5.5 on a PowerMac 9500 Apple either changed A the operating system or changed the Ethernet controller they used A to prevent changing the MAC (no relation) address as required for : DECnet IV.  Do you think this has been fixed for MacOS X ?   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 16:03:58 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) * Subject: RE: DECnet positively in the news3 Message-ID: <UvuxdrStga1p@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <0TrWsYGXEtgA@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: s > In article <8YUwpR8lwDJF@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: X >> In article <00A3B4D4.C2AD6B82@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>> 8 >>> Anybody here know where I might get DECnet for OS X? >> :A >>    Commercially I'd try KiResearch.  Their KiNet is a Phase IV : >>    implementation that they sell for lots of platforms. > E > Sometime after System 7.5.5 on a PowerMac 9500 Apple either changedoC > the operating system or changed the Ethernet controller they used1C > to prevent changing the MAC (no relation) address as required forc< > DECnet IV.  Do you think this has been fixed for MacOS X ?  H    Since OS X is a completely different kernel, based on a BSD UNIX overH    a Mach micro kernel and many of those run DECnet, I'd suspect this is    no longer a problem.K   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 10:55:47 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw ! = Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0411231055.766568d4@posting.google.com>s  v koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<B8COQA1MlEXv@eisner.encompasserve.org>...p > In article <b096a4ee.0411221827.2b1dbac5@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:e > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:<419DB354.A9B6D204@teksavvy.com>...  > >> Paddy O'Brien wrote:rJ > >> > But I agree with Alan and VAXMAN, time cannot go backwards, and ourE > >> > setting time earlier is not the same as time going backwards. r > >> D7 > >> Time is like a river. It flows into one direction.f > >  > > Really. Based on what? > " >    Second law of thermodynamics.  D I meant the river part. "Time is like a river" is hardly a basis for scientific discussion.  ( The Mezei formulation of the second law:   Time is like a river.p   :-)t  B Furthermore, there is at least one instance in which an earthquakeC caused a river to flow backwards temporarily, IIRC. So all you need E for time travel, then, based on this river analogy, is an earthquake!k :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:47:48 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)4% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !H3 Message-ID: <60zPjeht6lGz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <b096a4ee.0411231055.766568d4@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > F > I meant the river part. "Time is like a river" is hardly a basis for > scientific discussion.  F    When doing science it helps to be precise.  To remove possible tideC    effects in New Brunswick, or human engineering along the ChicagoiC    River (which I think only changed directions the one time), letsi    be more specific:  A    Time is like Niagra Falls.  It looks better on the other side.e  A    But then the statement is no longer translationally invariant.e    Let's be more precise:i  ;    Time is like Niagra Falls.  It looks better from Canada.   C    OK, there are too many places in Canada from which one can't seee5    the falls.  Once more and this time try real hard:t  A    Time is like Niagra Falls.  It looks better from Niagra Falls,t@    Ontario, when strolling along the river front on a clear day.    e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:06:08 -0800]% From: DeanW <dean.woodward@gmail.com>s% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !-7 Message-ID: <3f119ada04112312065360db6a@mail.gmail.com>2  * On 23 Nov 2004 13:47:48 -0600, Bob Koehler0 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:H >    When doing science it helps to be precise.  To remove possible tideE >    effects in New Brunswick, or human engineering along the ChicagocE >    River (which I think only changed directions the one time), letsi >    be more specific: > C >    Time is like Niagra Falls.  It looks better on the other side.t > C >    But then the statement is no longer translationally invariant.: >    Let's be more precise:g > = >    Time is like Niagra Falls.  It looks better from Canada.s > E >    OK, there are too many places in Canada from which one can't see 7 >    the falls.  Once more and this time try real hard:l > C >    Time is like Niagra Falls.  It looks better from Niagra Falls,aB >    Ontario, when strolling along the river front on a clear day.  3 Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.t    (Sorry, couldn't help myself...)   -- b Dean Woodward    =o&oh dean.maps_on.woodward@gmail.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:21:21 GMTi3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)d% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !c2 Message-ID: <5ZMod.3409$CF2.1718@news.cpqcorp.net>   Somebody wrote:r  4 > Time is like a river. It flows into one direction.  '     "Time, like an ever rolling stream,           bears all its sons away.$      They fly, forgotten, as a dream!         dies at the openging day"   
 Oh, come now!   ' Time is a DIMENSION -- just like space. 8 Time and space do not move or flow; we move within them.9 Exactly why we percieve ourselves to be moving constantlyp+ in one direction in time is not understood.-    ! And somebody else brought up the:0   > Second law of thermodynamics.L  5 Statements of the Second Law which appear to rule out)0 movement in time in either direction are flawed.  5 It is left as an exercise to re-state the second law R4 so that it admits negative time without changing its' application when time moves posatively.e    4     (Can you believe my original [poor?] attempt at '     humor has led to this discussion!?)t   --J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:38:01 -0800e# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>p% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !g( Message-ID: <opshx1dnpgzgicya@hyrrokkin>  3 On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:21:21 GMT, Charlie Hammond  v$ <hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com> wrote:   > Somebody wrote:N >D5 >> Time is like a river. It flows into one direction.  >t) >     "Time, like an ever rolling stream,i" >         bears all its sons away.& >      They fly, forgotten, as a dream# >         dies at the openging day"k >o > Oh, come now!  >t) > Time is a DIMENSION -- just like space.   < Well, that is the Dogma for about the last 100 years, but if. Kant were alive he might take issue with that.  : > Time and space do not move or flow; we move within them.; > Exactly why we percieve ourselves to be moving constantlyh- > in one direction in time is not understood.a  @ You may wish to read "Time, the Familiar Stranger"by J.T. Frazer ISBN 1-55615-171-3  . For the Disciplined Dreamer a book about Time.   >a > # > And somebody else brought up the:d >c  >> Second law of thermodynamics. >27 > Statements of the Second Law which appear to rule outD2 > movement in time in either direction are flawed. > 6 > It is left as an exercise to re-state the second law6 > so that it admits negative time without changing its) > application when time moves posatively.h >d >n5 >     (Can you believe my original [poor?] attempt ats) >     humor has led to this discussion!?)o >y > --J >       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL    > USA H >           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)B >       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my  
 > employer's.  >=       --  C Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 19:03:49 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)% Subject: Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !:= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0411231903.1a6bcc07@posting.google.com>   O david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<cnvsh8$f8u$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>... p > In article <b096a4ee.0411230727.706b33fb@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:R > >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<cnq9mf$ih8$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>...S > >> In article <opshrqtciyzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:04 > >> >On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:11:17 -0500, JF Mezei  + > >> ><jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  > >> >  > >> >> "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:M > >> >>> Despite the very surprising spookiness of certain aspects of quantumAJ > >> >>> mechanics, I find the possibility of going backwards in time very > >> >>> unlikely. > >> >>  >  [...]? > >> >You would need to revise the second law of Thermodynamics  > >> 9R > >> I'm not sure what relevance the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has to Time travel. > >> 1< > >> The standard statements of the 2nd Law are those due to > >> 0 > >> Kelvin  > >> 1 > >> "M > >> There is no thermodynamic process whose sole effect is to transform heatTI > >> extracted from a source at uniform temperature completely into work.0 > >> " > >> T > >> and > >>  
 > >> Clausius0 > >>   > >> "T > >> There is no thermodynamic process whose sole effect is to extract a quantity ofG > >> heat from a colder reservoir and deliver it to a hotter reservoir.0 > >> " > >>  T > >> I'd assume you probably meant the derived quantity entropy which can be defined > >> asT > >>   > >> "R > >> For a closed system, the quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy > >> not available to do work."  > >> 2 > >>  1 > >> with which the second law can be restated as  > >> 05 > >> "Entropy in a closed system can never decrease."0 > >> A > >>  S > >> Unfortunately entropy is a much misused term (rather like VMS clustering) withe% > >> at least two other popular uses.  > >>  S > >> One is Boltzmann's statistical entropy which deals with the number of possible S > >> states a system may evolve into. There are more disordered states than orderedAQ > >> states for an ordered system to evolve into hence it is highly probable thatnN > >> a system will evolve from an ordered to a disordered state. This is oftenO > >> asserted as a reason for the direction of the arrow of time - however this  > >| > >|L > >> argument has problems since there are also more disordered states than H > >> ordered states which could give rise to the original ordered state. > > H > >Huh? The odds for a closed macroscopic system going to a more orderedE > >state are essentially zero. It's like waiting for all the air in aiD > >room to collect into opposite corners of the room, say in 1 cubic? > >meter or less at each corner. It's just not going to happen.e > >r > " > It depends on the point of view. > M > Take a closed system and define it's current state as ordered and all thoseeH > states which it might move to which are so close as to be pretty much O > indistinguishable from it as also ordered. All other states it might move to r > being considered disordered.  E I'm not sure what you're describing here. If the (macroscopic) systemeD is in equilibrium, it will not evolve to a more ordered state. If itD is not in equilibrium, it will evolve to a more disordered state and( the entropy of the system will increase.  K > Then, for any reasonably large system, the number of disordered states D  J > vastly outnumbers the number of ordered states O. Hence in the standard K > interpretation the system is more likely to move from the ordered to the   > disordered state.e > I > But unless you introduce other constraints this isn't the whole story. eK > Consider the past of the system - where did the ordered state come from ?IO > The number of disordered states which can become the ordered state is exactly L > the same in number as the set D (since each is just a state in D with the N > velocity vectors reversed) similarly the number of ordered states which can E > become the ordered state is exactly equal to O for the same reason.xM > Hence it is vastly more likely that the ordered state came from a precedingpO > disordered state than from a preceding ordered state ie the system moved fromu > disorder to order.  A This doesn't sound right to me. It's been a long time since I did F statistical mechanics. Still, I think this is not right. There are farE more states with the "wrong velocities" than there are with the right D ones. Also, I'm not sure you can really use velocities in this sense? except for a dilute ideal gas, and maybe not even then. Quantum C mechanics won't allow it, I think. And it seems to me that what you C descirbe is a serious violation of the second law. It's like saying A heat, of its own accord, goes from a cold object to a hot object.    > K > To change the situation you have to introduce a time dependent constraint : > so that in the past the system was more constrained eg  M > you remove a partition so that the gas in an enclosed space can move into a  > larger space.t >  > Note.  > I > In this situation statistical and thermodynamic entropy appear to be in  > different places.r > M > In statistical entropy the entropy increases due to the vast number of new  6 > states the system can occupy in the expanded volume. > P > In thermodynamics the work done in removing the partition is done from outsideN > the system meaning it is no longer closed. Hence the system to be consideredM > has to include the agency removing the partition for instance a human hand.RO > The entropy increase then can be identified with the waste heat generated by aL > the muscles in that hand. No waste heat is generated by the gas molecules  > having more space to move in.   D I think both entropies are the same. In classical thermo, it is onlyC changes in entropy that are well defined. And it is only changes in0C the entropy that even matter. With the advent of statiscial physics E (or statistical mechanics, if you prefer), entropy is given a precise 	 equation:w       S = k ln (Omega)  C with Omega being the number of possible states. But even this lacksi= precision in the sense that we are talking about "approximaterB eigenstates". If we had an exact eigenstate in a closed system, itD would remain in that state forever. But it does mean, IIRC, that theE entropy goes to zero as the absolute temperature does. (Discussion of4B just what makes these approximate eigenstates valid is "beyond the scope of this discussion".)   3 Anyway, the main point is that entropy is entropy. t  > Regardless, you're not going to see the air in a room suddenly@ congregate into the corners of the room. The odds against it are fantastically high.    >  >  >  > David Webb > Security Team Leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >  > >[...]   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 16:18:17 -0800- From: elementyl@hotmail.com (James Wilkinson)  Subject: DS10 SRM consolea= Message-ID: <e2ac4c66.0411231618.3ffd69e8@posting.google.com>e  ) Someone must have run into this before...   @ Have a DS10 that was running VMS originally that was placed into> storage as a spare.  Took it out of storage and it comes up inB AlphaBIOS.  Went to the usual location CMOS/Advanced and it claimsE that the console is set to OpenVMS, yet a power cycle still brings upe the AlphaBIOS console.  D Replaced the RTC since time was not being kept between power cycles,@ and updated to latest version of the firmware, yet the AlphaBIOS= console persists despite its acknowledgement that the console0* selection is indeed OpenVMS Console (SRM).  * What is preventing use of the SRM console?   James    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:51:50 -0500 ) From: Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()] 8 Message-ID: <gob7q0hvur2gdsn1kfhmnaedc921ej2ols@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:09:21 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  Q >I'm not one to ever say that things can't be improved.  However, for what I use cR >DCL for, there aren't many deficiencies.  I'd be interested is seeing what could S >be better.  Then again, I didn't really understand the GUI when it first appeared.   F I'd like to see a way to return values from called subroutines withoutB having to use global variables.  Perhaps make any symbol used as a< parameter a shared scope variable that you can change in the= subroutine and have it retain the new value after the return?c  D As for lack of CASE statements, the GOTO works just fine if you make up your labels right:    $ I = 3  $ GOTO CASE_'I'Y $!	 $ CASE_1:   < $ GOTO CASE_END   ! equivalent to 'break'...use it or don't. $!	 $ CASE_2:n   $ GOTO CASE_END  $!	 $ CASE_3:    $ GOTO CASE_END  $! $ CASE_END:s  F You can use things other than numbers as the selector if you like, andE add some IF checking to have a "default" capability when the value is C out of range.  Doesn't say "CASE" or "SWITCH", but it works just as  well as either of those.  C There's a lot more in DCL than appears at a casual glance.  DynamicrE multidimensional arrays for instance...I've used those lots of times, F but you won't find them in "HELP" or the DCL manual (not last I looked; anyway).  (Hint: you can build symbol names at run time...)   
 -- Mike B. --   Mike B.F  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.E%   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM...i@ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:05:11 -0500 ) From: Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]i8 Message-ID: <6bc7q01pdjq0mf3opm468ds0egffjsaars@4ax.com>  1 On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:35:55 GMT, "Anthony Borla"0 <ajborla@bigpond.com> wrote:  G >* Write their own lexical functions [i.e. same as labelled subroutinesaI >   but with the benefit of cleaner calling syntax, and ability to return  >   values directly e.g. >c+ >       write sys$output f$mylexical(x,y,z)  >  >   or:T > # >       retval = f$mylexical(x,y,z)   E I've wanted that more than once.  The question is how to implement itA so that you don't break things.   C For instance, at the moment you can move a DCL command procedure torA any equivalent VMS system and it will work.  If you have personal C lexicals, how will you implement them so that they are available?     A A sharable library is one option, but then you start running intos> library version compatibility issues, and you have to keep the, sharable and the command procedure together.  ? If you allow the source code for the function to be part of the C command procedure, so that it can be built on any system that lacksiE it, you run into compiler version/existence issues (particularly with  C).   E What happens when two authors invent two different lexical functions,lC but name them the same thing?  A user might have one procedure thatBA needs the first, and another procedure that needs the second, and : making him switch environments back and forth isn't at all4 friendly...we got away from "modes" a long time ago.  C If you can solve these problems, maybe HP will listen and implement=C the idea.  It would be really nice at times though, even with these  issues to work around...  B >*  Use object modules / library routines [via suitable interface]> >    directly from DCL. This feature may be the most difficult@ >    to implement as it involves many issues, but it is also theA >    one which has the most postential benefit, and is one of the < >    features which makes the earlier mentioned languages so >    flexible and powerful  C You can always run a program, and that program can always play with C DCL global symbols to get and return data.  It's not as smooth as a E lexical function, but it's not much worse than a subroutine call, and  no worse than a gosub.  G >Also suggest that a new qualifier be added to commands that works in akM >manner similar to /OUTPUT, but allows trapping of command output to a symbol0 >instead of a file e.g.  >  >    COMMAND/SYMOUT=mysymbol  E Or just use sys$input, sys$output and sys$error in a manner closer to ? the way unix uses it's standard channels.  That combined with arD smoother implementation of PIPE would get you one of the most usefulE unix shell capabilities.  Trouble is that it would require changes to 7 most of the utility programs...(copy, dir, type, etc.).   C Enhance if you like, but don't break existing code please.  There's E just too much of it out there.  I've heard of entire hospital systems0C written in DCL, and I know I've done installation and configuration + scripts in it that were not at all brief...0     -- 0 Mike B.c  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address. %   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM... @ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:09:00 -0500c) From: Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()] 8 Message-ID: <l4d7q0h6n50mipr8a66m90jgs0itcf994v@4ax.com>  A On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:28:45 GMT, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>  wrote:  J >"Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message . >news:YOsppH214McM@eisner.encompasserve.org...M >> In article <eVNmd.167$iU3.154@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, "John Vottero"   >> <John@mvpsi.com> writes:r >>>c% >>> $ filelist = DIR/MODI/SINCE=TODAY  >>9 >>   Ugh.  Man, you're getting to much like eunichs here.- >>F >>   Looping over f$search and f$file_attributes will do this for you. >  >Ok, but how about:  >  >$ filelist = SEARCH *.C XYZ > F >The point is, if commands return objects instead of text, you can do  >interesting things.  . Only if you know what the objects look like...  E Your search thing can be done in DCL now...you search/output=foo.bar, D then open foo.bar and read it.  Takes a bit more code than your way,B but no shared object definitions.  If you really want to play with@ objects, skip DCL and write in an object oriented language, like
 Simula... ;-)      --   Mike B.   @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address. %   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM... @ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:11:33 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]a, Message-ID: <41A3C3A4.7C471011@teksavvy.com>   "Mike B." wrote:% > >       retval = f$mylexical(x,y,z)  >   C > A sharable library is one option, but then you start running into @ > library version compatibility issues, and you have to keep the. > sharable and the command procedure together.   Use the DOS model for TSRs.   E Crteate a small app (.exe) which is executed and which "installs" the # homegrown lexical for your process.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:29:39 -08000# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]0( Message-ID: <opshx0zpa5zgicya@hyrrokkin>  I On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:51:50 -0500, Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>  d wrote:  H > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:09:21 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> > wrote: >pI >> I'm not one to ever say that things can't be improved.  However, for  a
 >> what I use0J >> DCL for, there aren't many deficiencies.  I'd be interested is seeing  
 >> what couldlG >> be better.  Then again, I didn't really understand the GUI when it  o >> first appeared. >$H > I'd like to see a way to return values from called subroutines withoutD > having to use global variables.  Perhaps make any symbol used as a> > parameter a shared scope variable that you can change in the? > subroutine and have it retain the new value after the return?  >dF > As for lack of CASE statements, the GOTO works just fine if you make > up your labels right:a  F The correct way to do this, which also reads much better is to use the* SELECT syntax, which IIRC is also in REXX,  M http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_022.html#index_x_1071p     >n	 > $ I = 3A > $ GOTO CASE_'I'i > $! > $ CASE_1:i >r> > $ GOTO CASE_END   ! equivalent to 'break'...use it or don't. > $! > $ CASE_2:e >t > $ GOTO CASE_ENDR > $! > $ CASE_3:r >i > $ GOTO CASE_END0 > $!
 > $ CASE_END:4 >.H > You can use things other than numbers as the selector if you like, andG > add some IF checking to have a "default" capability when the value isrE > out of range.  Doesn't say "CASE" or "SWITCH", but it works just asr > well as either of those. >sE > There's a lot more in DCL than appears at a casual glance.  DynamicoG > multidimensional arrays for instance...I've used those lots of times, H > but you won't find them in "HELP" or the DCL manual (not last I looked= > anyway).  (Hint: you can build symbol names at run time...)  >  > -- Mike B.       -- nC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:22:57 -060002 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]e+ Message-ID: <41A3FE90.BA2F9695@comcast.net>t   "Mike B." wrote: > [snip]A > If you allow the source code for the function to be part of theoE > command procedure, so that it can be built on any system that lacksbG > it, you run into compiler version/existence issues (particularly withe > C).a  C The answer to that is simplicity itself: Macro/32 - (almost) alwaysiH available (except on some tailored VAX systems) at no additional charge!   -- s David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems8 http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:h" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:42:07 -0600e2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>C Subject: Re: Extending DCL [was: Re: DCL suggestion for f$verify()]n* Message-ID: <41A4030F.6AEAA05@comcast.net>  ) (Snipped and re-oredered a bit (sorry)...c   Tom Linden wrote:e > I > On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:51:50 -0500, Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>o > wrote: > J > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:09:21 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>
 > > wrote: > >4I > >> I'm not one to ever say that things can't be improved.  However, forc > >> what I use J > >> DCL for, there aren't many deficiencies.  I'd be interested is seeing > >> what could G > >> be better.  Then again, I didn't really understand the GUI when it  > >> first appeared. > >sJ > > I'd like to see a way to return values from called subroutines withoutF > > having to use global variables.  Perhaps make any symbol used as a@ > > parameter a shared scope variable that you can change in theA > > subroutine and have it retain the new value after the return?t > >iH > > As for lack of CASE statements, the GOTO works just fine if you make > > up your labels right:o > >e > > $ I = 3m > > $ GOTO CASE_'I'e > > $!
 > > $ CASE_1:  > >r@ > > $ GOTO CASE_END   ! equivalent to 'break'...use it or don't. > > $! > H > The correct way to do this, which also reads much better is to use the, > SELECT syntax, which IIRC is also in REXX, > O > http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_022.html#index_x_1071s >   E Had an idea, but I'm too burned out right now to figure out how to don it.   H Basically, SELECT is a symbol which, when invoked, results in the stringF CASE being edited to contain an appropriate IF statement stub. Thusly," if CASE := IF MY_VBL .EQS. , then:  < $ SELECT MY_VBL		! Edits the string CASE to include "MY_VBL" $! $ CASE "A" THEN GOSUB a_label. $! $ CASE "B" THEN GOSUB b_label- $! $! END CASEa  & So, SELECT could even be a CALL as in:   $ SELECT := CALL EDIT_CASE  A ...and the $EDIT_CASE: SUBROUTINE accepts the input symbol as P1,sH determines whether its a string or a number, and provides either ".EQS." or .EQ., as appropriate.  F A bit of a stretch, and not an exact match to a 3GL's capability; but,H if you really, REALLY, *REALLY* want SELECT ... CASE, then that might be
 one approach.t   -- u David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsu http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:n" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:21:20 -0500n2 From: "Paul A. Jacobi" <Paul.Jacobi@nospam.hp.com>? Subject: Re: f$device( "*", "DISK", , ) v. "ESS1888 AudioDrive"n* Message-ID: <41a3acc0@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  L ESSDRIVER uses Dynamic Device Recognition to provide a device name string toI $SHOW DEVICE.  In order for DDR to work correctly, ucb$b_devclass must betI set to DC$_DISK and ucb$b_devtype must be set to DT$_GENERIC_DK.  DDR was.I originally done for SCSI disks, but also can be used for other device.  IdJ have already filed a problem report so that future DDR drivers do not need to be tagged as disks.     Paul A. Jacobi OpenVMS Systems Group 
 Nashua, NH      ? "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:41A2AE32.36C4A092@comcast.net...d > sms@antinode.org wrote:- > >-) > > Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:15:15 -0600: > > 
 > > > > [...]F- > > > > ALP2 $ wso f$device( "*", "DISK", , ): > > > > _ALP2$AUA0:d
 > > > > [...]e' > > > > ALP2 $ sho dev /ful _ALP2$AUA0:> > > > >g> > > > > Disk AUA0:, device type ESS1888 AudioDrive, is online, record-oriented device,  > > > >     carriage control.o > > > >ID > > > >     Error count                    0    Operations completed 2 9 > > > >     Owner process      "MMOV$SERVER"    Owner UICs [SYSTEM]8 > > > >     Owner process ID        22600425    Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,WhC > > > >     Reference count                2    Default buffer size5 06 > >r6 > > > What does F$GETSYI( "AUA0", "DEVCLASS" ) return? > >u, > > alp $ wso F$GETSYI( "AUA0", "DEVCLASS" )E > > %DCL-W-IVKEYW, unrecognized keyword - check validity and spelling4 > >  \AUA0\d >m< > Yeah - my bad. Should have cut-and-pasted from the screen. >e > > But: > > C > > ALP2 $ wso F$GETdvI( "AUA0", "DEVCLASS" )       ! PWS 500 a[u].e > > 1t > > 7 > > alp $ sea /mat = and decc_include:dcdef.h dc, " 1 "a3 > > #define DC$_DISK 1                      /* DISKt */ > >u
 > > While: > > G > > alp $ wso F$GETdvI( "AUA0", "DEVCLASS" )        ! AlpSta 200 4/233.0 > > 98 > >68 > > alp $ sea /mat = and decc_include:dcdef.h dc, " 98 "< > > #define DC$_AUDIO 98                    /* General audio */ > >I7 > >    So, it's consistently wrong.  I feel better now.V >A > Hhmmm... Goofy stuff." >o > -- w > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemss > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:w$ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  >h$ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/E   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 05:24:41 GMT0. From: Uthacalthing <uthacalthing@tymbrimi.gov>+ Subject: Re: FAST BOOT OF SIMH VAX Emulator : Message-ID: <231120042324416343%uthacalthing@tymbrimi.gov>  G > If you'd like to exchange problems, ideas, etc., offline, please feel. > free to contact me by e-mail.r > * > gspamtackett <atsign> yahoo <period> com@ > (remove "spam" and the other obfuscations for my real address) >   G Ah, another old Mac and VMS hand.  There seem to be quite few of them. i0 I guess we know quality when we see it, eh?  ;-)  E Thanks for the offer of emailing and such offline.  Mine's billd <at>. ecity <dot> net.  D I'm trying to get the precompiled SIMH VAX for Mac now, using FinderG FTP instead of Safari HTTP.  It's working over twice as fast (it says 2 C hours instead of 5 hours.)   If that doesn't work, I'll use the FTPc? command in the Terminal (probably should've done that to start)0  E (by the way:   ftp://ftp.vsm.com.au/SIMH/ )  Other goodies as well on 	 the site.:    - Billi   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:15:10 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>r+ Subject: Re: FAST BOOT OF SIMH VAX Emulatorr, Message-ID: <41A426D4.1FC26BCE@teksavvy.com>   Uthacalthing wrote:@F > I'm trying to get the precompiled SIMH VAX for Mac now, using Finder > FTP instead of Safari HTTP.R  = This is incredible news. VMS now runs on Power architecture. k  M This has interesting possibilities if you can run an X application on the VAXc? and use the MAC OS X's X server as target for the app's window.l  O So now, what is left is for SIMH to emulate an Alpha in 64 bit mode on a G5 :-)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:45:04 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: From the Department of Patent Stupidity, Message-ID: <yeadneAwNqQxEz7cRVn-qw@igs.net>   and this little gem too...  3 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1723598,00.aspa   ....  ? Dell is currently facing patent claims from a company called DE K Technologies, which holds a patent in the innovative, completely nonobvious5D and never-been-done-before process of "patent covering international( transactions handled over the computer."  I That's right-selling stuff to people in other countries using a computer.n  L Why did DE Technologies stop at international commerce? Since it was willingF to go that far, the company might as well have tried to patent sellingH anything, any way, at any time. I'm sure the patent office wouldn't have seen anything wrong with that.   ....  , http://www.roanoke.com/business%5C13239.html  I The company argues that the computer system DE Technologies developed hasnC functions that include determining the total cost of a transaction, L including foreign duties, taxes and other governmental charges; the creationH of import and exportation documents; compliance with international tradeK laws; and verification of the authorization of funds for payment, accordingb to the lawsuit.f       or more completely see:m  - www.uspto.gov and search for patent 6,460,020r  5 Universal shopping center for international operation        AbstractL An international transaction system for operation over the internet/intranetG provides a pre-transactional calculation of all charges involved in any-L international transaction. Upon the option of the customer, the goods can beE viewed on catalogue sheets translated to a language of the customer'sDJ choice, and the price provided in a currency selected by the customer. TheJ customer also has the option of initiating the order with automatic creditJ authorization, generation of an electronic title or commercial invoice andL arrangements and payment of shipping charges and any taxes and import/export duties.e      L Hell, I was doing this sort of things with 'goods' (securities transactions)L in the early 1980's and there were others before me who were doing this too.   The patent system is broke.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:42:57 -0500h) From: Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> 4 Subject: Re: From the Department of Patent Stupidity8 Message-ID: <76f7q0dtu86ve6bbd9031fbi30b1tjjm48@4ax.com>  A On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:45:04 -0500, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o wrote:   >The patent system is broke.  ' Probably a result of it being broken...   E I gave up on them when they allowed patenting of the XOR operation...r       -- r Mike B.o  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.d%   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM...D@ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:29:19 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)cY Subject: Re: interesting take on Olsen's "no reason for any individual tohave a computer u3 Message-ID: <8KEZsLSCEAh8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <7-mdnYrFm6bN2D7cRVn-tg@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  M > 1) Early on in DEC's PC game they were partnered with Olivetti, mostly as ae$ > way to get them into the business.  B    Early?  I don't recall DEC partnering with Olivetti until after<    they went on their own, then tried partnering with Tandy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:22:57 -0500s# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>aY Subject: Re: interesting take on Olsen's "no reason for any individual tohave a computer o, Message-ID: <pYmdnTvdAtXeJT7cRVn-tA@igs.net>   Bob Koehler wrote:; > In article <7-mdnYrFm6bN2D7cRVn-tg@igs.net>, "John Smith"t > <a@nonymous.com> writes: >WB >> 1) Early on in DEC's PC game they were partnered with Olivetti,1 >> mostly as a way to get them into the business.  >iD >    Early?  I don't recall DEC partnering with Olivetti until after> >    they went on their own, then tried partnering with Tandy.    & Perhaps I have the timeframe mixed up.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:55:01 -0500l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: My home pages, Message-ID: <41A3BFC4.2F2DD266@teksavvy.com>   Rich Jordan wrote:E > Today, while www.digital.com still resolves and redirects, it lookslG > like my home page URL is no more... www.openvms.digital.com no longerc > resolves.n    J It will be interesting to see if HP actively defends all the trademarks it( acquired from DEC when it bought Compaq.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:30:50 GMTi6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>; Subject: Need current Rdb customers for trade press articlet< Message-ID: <KfTod.6572$Fs1.711434@twister.southeast.rr.com>  M If you're running Rdb and you're willing to be interviewed for a trade press  H article please let me know, kfarmer(at)openvms.org.  Interveiws need to ! happen preferably before holiday.   , Please include a voice number for interview.     Kenr  % OpenVMS.org, kfarmer (at) openvms.orge% _____________________________________' Kenneth R. Farmer <><-% SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com1   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:15:33 -06004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)5 Subject: Re: Online forums for former digits/deccies? 3 Message-ID: <Mub2hqjQJkQm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <10q4jjvbntt3s43@corp.supernews.com>, "Dale E. Coy" <daleecoy@obfuscation.spinn.net> writes:   > Perhaps it's a choice between: > H > 0.  The ease of complaining about the absence of such an online forum. > @ > 1.  A "modern" web-based forum that nobody has so far created. > F > 2.  A DEC Notes-based forum that could be available within 24 hours. > K > So far, nobody who wants such a forum has signed up for a free DECUServe  ) > account and sent a request to me (coy).l  D I'd be interested in such a forum, and as you can see already have a' DECUServe account, for nearly a decade.i  1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"r& 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdfdL     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  C         We need to ensure that actions by our government uphold theeF         principles of a democratic society, accountable government andG         international law, and that all decisions are taken in a mannero)         consistent with the Constitution.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:44:26 -0600n2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>5 Subject: Re: Online forums for former digits/deccies? + Message-ID: <41A4039A.46668F56@comcast.net>n   Barry wrote: > F > Great!  I'm not the proud owner of an account on EISNER::  Now I canI > stay in touch with the world's greatest o/s after the retired the VAXes:G > here at work.  Plus, NOTES !!  Ah, the good old days.  If someone can0G > tell me how to convince Reflection to use my .r2w file from IE I'd be: > happy as a clam.  Anyone?:  # File -> Open doesn't do it for you?c  ( Create a shortcut to it on your desktop?   -- k David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems1 http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:i" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:39:54 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>.$ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Chart ?' Message-ID: <41A3AE2A.7AAC4FAF@aaa.com>r  2 > Since I have heard a rumour that next version of& > VAX VMS won't support microvax II,..  	 Finaly !!   	 Jan-Erik.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:45:39 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)c$ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Chart ?2 Message-ID: <n4Pod.3426$qT2.3147@news.cpqcorp.net>  j In article <newscache$8aol7i$yfw1$1@news.sil.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:D :Does anyone know where one can find now the OpenVMS support chart ?I :You know the list which shows what VMS version is minimum for what H/W ?y ..K :and is also referred in the VMS FAQ. But alas, not there. And even "Search K :results" shows nothing (except a few wizard articles referring this URLs).t  ?   As I am just finishing an update to the FAQ, I am very glad IrA   happened to see this message posted before I shipped it -- I'lld;   queue an update for this stale link for the next edition.   <   Here's the apparent new URL for the OpenVMS support chart:  :     http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/hw_supportchart.html  C   The link is on the main <http://www.hp.com/go/openvms> page, BTW, %   in the Service and Support section.c  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faqsN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comd   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Nov 2004 00:00:53 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.comg$ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support Chart ?, Message-ID: <co0ivl02da4@enews4.newsguy.com>  . JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:H > Since I have heard a rumour that next version of VAX VMS won't supportL > microvax II, does this mean that they will pull the files that would allow0 > it to run on it, or just not test/qualify it ?  H The last version of VMS to support the MicroVAX II is V7.2.  It is stillC possible to run V7.3 on one though as far as I know.  It just isn'tl
 supported.   			Zane    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:33:26 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r! Subject: Re: OT: Joke of the weekv3 Message-ID: <xD40hzmlefkv@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <41A3609A.5CDA7A68@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:J >>    VMS can too filter viri.  You can buy comrercial products which will1 >>    filter Windows viri from VMS based storage.o > J > TCPIP services does not provide any hooks for you to add software to theP > receiver process. And it does not provide any hooks for you to add software toH > the main symbiont. You need to find some hacks to route message to the > filtering software.b  J    Odd then, that Process sells a product as an add on to HP's TCPIP that     works in that manner.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 15:41:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s! Subject: RE: OT: Joke of the weeku3 Message-ID: <WGP6BKfOG4uR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   J In article <cnvfnk$b0h$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:  M > The next version of PreciseMail anti-virus will add RBL facilities into the  > SMTP proxy server.  D RBL is a trademark of MAPS, but presuming this will work for general	 DNSbls...s  & What do you mean by "RBL facilities" ?  H The ability to specify different DNSbls for different target usernames ?  5 The ability to specify different treatments on a hit:t   	Reject . 	Greylist (on disk storage or only in memory?) 	Tarpitd   according to DNSbl ? according to target username ?   The ability to host a DNSbl ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:30:56 -0500n) From: Mike B. <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>a! Subject: Re: OT: Joke of the weekn8 Message-ID: <6ce7q05gc3j2e8vb1p9vgtsibjkfkptm4p@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:09:26 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:e   >Bob Koehler wrote:nJ >>    VMS can too filter viri.  You can buy comrercial products which will1 >>    filter Windows viri from VMS based storage.y > I >TCPIP services does not provide any hooks for you to add software to the O >receiver process. And it does not provide any hooks for you to add software tooG >the main symbiont. You need to find some hacks to route message to ther >filtering software.  B TCPIP serviced is not the only TCP/IP software for VMS, nor is itsC SMTP support the only SMTP support available for VMS...and at leastrA one of the alternatives does have anti-spam capability and fairlye, flexible configuration of the mail receiver.  
 -- Mike B.    Process Software, LLC -- a Mike B.m  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.e%   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM... @ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:20:13 +0000 (UTC)e From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk! Subject: Re: OT: Joke of the weekb) Message-ID: <co0k3t$mho$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>o  q In article <xD40hzmlefkv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:d] >In article <41A3609A.5CDA7A68@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >> Bob Koehler wrote:aK >>>    VMS can too filter viri.  You can buy comrercial products which will 2 >>>    filter Windows viri from VMS based storage. >>  K >> TCPIP services does not provide any hooks for you to add software to thetQ >> receiver process. And it does not provide any hooks for you to add software to I >> the main symbiont. You need to find some hacks to route message to thep >> filtering software. >uK >   Odd then, that Process sells a product as an add on to HP's TCPIP that s >   works in that manner.  >pO Not really. Process' PreciseMail Anti-Spam (PMAS) product when working directly L with TCPIP Services (rather than with PMDF which provides hooks) works as a @ transparent SMTP proxy which sits in front of the SMTP listener.N If you run both on the same system then generally PMAS listens on port 25 and I then passes the mail to the TCPIP Services SMTP listener which has to be v& configured to run on a different port.  O PMDF itself works with TCPIP services, Multinet or TCPWARE but it replaces the 1I SMTP listener provided with these stacks with it's own multithreaded SMTPo	 listener.a  
 David Webb Security tam leaderi CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:36:32 +0000 (UTC)t From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk! Subject: RE: OT: Joke of the weeki) Message-ID: <co0l2g$n1p$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>r  c In article <WGP6BKfOG4uR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:,K >In article <cnvfnk$b0h$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:e >sN >> The next version of PreciseMail anti-virus will add RBL facilities into the >> SMTP proxy server.  >vE >RBL is a trademark of MAPS, but presuming this will work for general-
 >DNSbls... >,K Yes that's what I mean. Probably because the first one I ever used was MAPSjK I tend to refer to all such blacklists as RBLs (quite a lot of other people  seem to do so as well).c    ' >What do you mean by "RBL facilities" ?0 >1I >The ability to specify different DNSbls for different target usernames ?s >t6 >The ability to specify different treatments on a hit: >D >	Reject/ >	Greylist (on disk storage or only in memory?)i >	Tarpit >  >according to DNSbl ?e >according to target username ?n >h: I'm not privy to exactly what Process will be including.  G But if you need something in particular Process seem pretty amenable tol suggestions.   >The ability to host a DNSbl ?  ; The latter is something you would setup in your DNS server.e    
 David Webb Security Team Leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 11:04:35 -08000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter)4 Subject: Print Tray Definitions with HP 4101 Printer= Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0411231104.21708b34@posting.google.com>A   Folks,E       I have hit a problem with printing from specific trays on an HPbF 4101 printer.     This model has a Tray 1 (Manual Feed), and Trays 2 &" 3 as regular autofeed paper trays.D       I am in the Healthcare business, and in some of our locations,F space is at a premium so there is a lot of pressure to get the printer to do everything and everyone.E       My backend host servers are Alpha's running VMS (7.3-1).   Some E of my printers print out confidential information on rather expensivewB "security" paper, i.e. paper which cannot be photocopied.  HoweverC they are also used for "normal" back-end printing and for "network"- printing (from desktop).>       Because the security paper is expensive, and because theB information in confidential, I need to logically separate the feedF trays so that sensitive information does not come out on normal stock,F and so the normal printing is not using expensive paper, which is what2 would normally happen if either tray became empty.E       To cut a long story short, I thought I had resolved the problem@D by creating two separate VMS print queues which used forms to defineC the output tray.     The printer configuration was then set to "...sD use requested queue exclusively...", i.e. no tray failover if empty.E       We then sat back and patted ourselves on the head, telling each ! other how brilliant we were, etc.z  F       Then someone tried to print a MicroCrap Document and it wouldn't print.F It seems that these jobs will first try to print from the manual feed,D and then failover to the auto feed if nothing is fed manually.    OfD course, we have just disabled the tray failover to achieve objective' 1,   Hence Desktop printing is screwed.e  E Is it possible to disable the manual feed tray completely and take iti? out of the menu??    Who uses it anyway?   Does anyone have anyt suggestions.   Desperatly yours.    Dave.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:47:24 -0600f2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: reporter inquiry: Is HP selling AlphaServers?+ Message-ID: <41A4044C.26530C87@comcast.net>l   Rich Jordan wrote: > g > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<41A2AD3C.F6806383@comcast.net>...i > > David Froble wrote:a > > >d > > > > Rich Jordan wrote: > > > >a > > > >>[snip]! > > > >>As of this year companiesmG > > > >>have to be able to provide over $1,000,000.00 dollars in annualoI > > > >>hardware/system sales in order to 'qualify' to resell OpenVMS andm > > > >>Alpha systems. > > >e" > > > This is entirely reasonable. > > >sT > > > HP installed that stupid SAP system for their distribution, and to date I have7 > > > not heard of one successful SAP system, anywhere.  > > >tP > > > So since their application software has a hard time with having many small3 > > > customers, they chop off the small customers.e > > > 9 > > > Makes as much sense to me as anything else HP does.  > >  > > Point taken... > >  > > -- > > David J Dachtera > > dba DJE Systemsn > > http://www.djesys.com/ > G > Point of clarification.  We were too small to purchase direct from HPnE > or Compaq; in fact we were reduced to a tiered VAR under DEC in the F > mid '90s and had to purchase from one of DEC's major distributors toA > resell.  As a result our only direct contact with corporate wasa= > getting the systems we resold registered for our customers.A > H > But we were an authorized reseller, and you had to be that in order toF > buy/resell from those major distributors.  Last year HP decided thatB > certification of sales and support folks wasn't enough, and evenE > resellers tiered beneath the big distributors had to be (in effect)cE > BIG resellers (7 figures per year!) or they would not be allowed to F > sell 'enterprise' product (read Alpha and VMS).  Its damn hard to do, > that selling DS10s with custom software...  G Then, I guess the trick is figuring out how to "move the cheese" so youn1 can resell a system purchased from a distributor.l  G ...and if HP thinks those "industry standard" servers are going to move-F in the same dollar volumes as ES and GS class Alphas, they'd better be' ready for one hell of a disappointment.    -- M David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/[  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:50:32 -0600r2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: reporter inquiry: Is HP selling AlphaServers?+ Message-ID: <41A40508.66C1427F@comcast.net>>   John Smith wrote:7 >  > JF Mezei wrote:. > > "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > >> would have to double the size or add another server. Now, because ofOG > >> the performance we are seeing, we are quite confident that we will I > >> be able to get through this year and into next before we have to add  > >> more database capacity."l > >  > >RB > > Considering that HP has begun to mention Alpha "last sales" noH > > earlier than 2 years from now, do such customers with 1280s have anyI > > sort of contract/commitment from HP that would allow then to continueuF > > to add CPUs to their 1280s until the theoretical limit of 128 even& > > beyond the last-alpha-sales date ? > >sH > > If not, shouldn't such customers be buying enough capacity to last aI > > lot longer than just 1 or 2 years to give them plenty of time to plan-I > > migration to other platforms before they run out of capacity on theiri > > alpha infrastructure ? >  > Consider the following:iF > The last EV7z cpu's have been fabbed and are sitting in a shoebox in > carly's(tm) closet.-M > Some current GS customers come along in a few years asking to buy some moreM > cpu's.6 > carly(tm) sez, "Opening price is $X. What am I bid?"J > Since there is some demand and only a finite supply, guess what happens? > K > Eventually the extra cpu price will be increased to a point that makes no % > economic sense to stay with the GS.n  G ...and since by then Itanic will be a herring (meaning VMS has no CPU),aE it will make no sense to stay with VMS (correction: it will make lessh6 "business" sense to stay with VMS than it does today).   -- x David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/R  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/k   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Nov 2004 13:40:20 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 0 Subject: Re: SYS$GETMSG bug ( RADRMOD or OPCDEC)3 Message-ID: <$APoNiiBJxQF@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  \ In article <41A35620.D408C1CC@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:I > Man, lost a lot of time on this one (since each compile takes forever).y >  > had  > * > char buffer[257];  /* (255 plus null) */  ;    When I learned to count 255 plus room for a null is 256.t1    But I think you want room for 256 plus a null.k     6 > Put the definition at buffer[255] and it works !!!!!  =    Try defining it with space for one or more nulls, then set       buffer.dsc$w_length = 256;s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:52:09 -0500u! From: "Jim" <turk162@hotmail.net> 2 Subject: VAX Server 4000/200 not seeing it's drive( Message-ID: <W%Qod.142$6g1.127@fe07.lga>  H Although I've read through the KA-660 CPU Maintenance Manual and the VAXE 4000 Operation manual, I still can't figure out why SHOW DEV shows no % hard drive on my VAX Server 4000/200.   D It has one Seagate ST4702N drive connected via ribbon to a half-sizeE controller card residing in the top half of slot 6 (BA215 backplane).   B The controller card has very few markings; it has "Assy 210-00031"F etched along one edge and has a sticker on the ROM chip that bears theE print "Viking QB A4.4".  The only hardware configurable option on thea@ card is a single row of four jumpers, all of which are "jumped".  C From web searches, I gather that the controller card may need to be D configured.  However, attempts to put it into maintenance mode don'tE appear to do much (see below).  At this point, I haven't been able toc8 even determine what type of controller I'm dealing with.  F I would greatly appreciate any help in identifying the controller cardB type, getting the drive on-line, or even a lead on where to find a definitive FAQ/manual.  G I bought this wonderful machine and a hamfest last year and assume that:H the drive works but that the previous owner must have wiped it (it spins# up and sounds like a drive should).]  ' Here's a summary of what I know so far:n     >>>b KA660-B V3.7, VMB 2.12 Performing normal system tests.i@ 95..94..93..92..91..90..89..88..87..86..85..84..83..82..81..80..@ 79..78..77..76..75..74..73..72..71..70..69..68..67..66..65..64..@ 63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55..54..53..52..51..50..49..48..@ 47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..@ 31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..4 15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. Loading system software.* No default boot device has been specified.   Available devices. -EZA0 (08-00-2B-24-45-71):  = < once it started repeatedly trying to boot from the network,-@ I got it back to the firmware prompt  and tried the following: >   >>>show qbus Scan of Qbus I/O Space< -20001468 (772150) = A440 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -2000146A (772152) = 0B400; -20001940 (774500) = A440 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE  -20001942 (774502) = 0B40  -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR   Scan of Qbus Memory Spacep   >>>show devr DSSI Bus 0 Node 7 (*)6    UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150) -?    UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500) -?   Ethernet Adapter -EZA0 (08-00-2B-24-45-71)b  ' >>>set host /maintenance/uqssp 20001468  UQSSP Controller (772150)t >>>    Regards, Jimd   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:20:43 -0700d+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>>6 Subject: Re: VAX Server 4000/200 not seeing it's drive' Message-ID: <41A3E1EB.7010107@MMaz.com>t  
 Jim wrote:  I >Although I've read through the KA-660 CPU Maintenance Manual and the VAXhF >4000 Operation manual, I still can't figure out why SHOW DEV shows no& >hard drive on my VAX Server 4000/200. > E >It has one Seagate ST4702N drive connected via ribbon to a half-sizeoF >controller card residing in the top half of slot 6 (BA215 backplane). >e >    > C This may seem like a silly question to ask, but if you have a bare .D ribbon cable running from the controller to the drive, what are you D doing for termination?  Have you confirmed that the drive itself is 1 providing both termination and termination power?R   BarryA     -- _  < Barry Treahy, Jr                     E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com< Midwest Microwave, Inc.                  Phone: 480/314-1320< Vice President & CIO                      FAX:  480/661-7028  I                        ... but it's a DRY HEAT!                          =   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:23:50 -0800l3 From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii_googlespam@yahoo.com> 6 Subject: VMS stand alone backup is what in MS Windows?0 Message-ID: <10q7sai96ll6e5a@corp.supernews.com>  E I would like to get a larger contiguous space at the end of my drive bH which is the system drive. I believe that in VMS I would use stand alone backup and restore.a  + How is this done on a MS Windows 95 system?n   -- m C.W.Holeman II) cwh5ii@Julian5Locals.com remove the fivesE   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:19:02 -0700i+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>e: Subject: Re: VMS stand alone backup is what in MS Windows?' Message-ID: <41A40BB6.2000802@MMaz.com>i   C.W.Holeman II wrote:e  F >I would like to get a larger contiguous space at the end of my drive I >which is the system drive. I believe that in VMS I would use stand alone  >backup and restore. >:, >How is this done on a MS Windows 95 system? >  o >m FORMAT  C: and install Linux..."  F If that wasn't serious enough, you are talking about an OS, and I use I this term loosely, that is rapidly approaching a decade in age, that was  H bad when it launched and never improved with age!  If you must run a 9X G Windows, the bare minimum should be 98 SE because this really isn't an NH OS, but rather a crappy GUI slapped on a less than ideal Disk Operating F System (ergo, DOS).  At least if you are running 98SE or W2K, you can H use a quality disk compression tool (what shipped with Windows is of no # better quality than the OS itself).      Barryc   -- <  < Barry Treahy, Jr                     E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com< Midwest Microwave, Inc.                  Phone: 480/314-1320< Vice President & CIO                      FAX:  480/661-7028  I                        ... but it's a DRY HEAT!                          .   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:09:43 -0600:2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>: Subject: Re: VMS stand alone backup is what in MS Windows?+ Message-ID: <41A40986.D1ED5363@comcast.net>0   "C.W.Holeman II" wrote:  > F > I would like to get a larger contiguous space at the end of my driveJ > which is the system drive. I believe that in VMS I would use stand alone > backup and restore.o > - > How is this done on a MS Windows 95 system?   ; Well, you're talkin' 'bout a whole different critter there.u  H In W/95, you're talking about partition space. That means using the DiskG Defragmenter to move as much of your stuff as possible to the beginning G of the partition (assuming your hard disk all one big partition). Note, H however, that certain "always open" files, like the swap file, can neverG be moved, unless you play around with boot diskettes and such to deleten them or find some other magic.  H That said, be warned: 8GB is the biggest partition that W/95 can handle.D W/98 and W/98-SE can handle larger partitions, even though W/98( and* -SE) is VASTLY less stable than W/95-OSR2.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE SystemsG http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:e" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/e   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:30:57 -0600 (CST)w From: sms@antinode.orgM Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought. ) Message-ID: <04112312305755@antinode.org>,  - From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>t  4 > >>Highwater-marking enabled on the output volume ? > >EL > >    Yes, as it's the default.  ("Affects Files-11 On-Disk Structure Level. > > 2 disks only"  What's true on ODS5 disks?) > D > Try switching it off if you don't "need" it and repeat your tests.  - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>t  K > The OP could investigate if the SQO bit is set on his file - I found someaJ > Google refs suggesting that if this is set, then the unwanted delays areJ > eliminated (which kinda blows holes in the initialize-by-extent theory).K > SQO won't work if UNZIP writes randomly around the file, however, so lookX$ > out for fseek and fpos type calls.  A    With no highwater marking, the time to unpack the test archive G dropped from about 58 minutes to about 36 minutes.  Restoring highwaternE marking and setting fab$v_sqo gave about 36.5 minutes, which is close  enough for me.  C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann)-    > This leeds me to the question: > F > Is there any idea of speed improvement when allocating a big file on > highwater marked disks?T  -    Apparently the answer is to set fab$v_sqo.2  D    So far as I can tell (DIR /FULL), fab$v_sqo is not a durable fileA attribute, so I don't need to worry about setting it and then not G restoring the original value.  Confirmation and/or dire warnings to the  contrary would be appreciated.  F    Zip does some dancing around in the archive file when it writes it,F and UnZip does some when it reads it, but that allows UnZip to be very3 sequential when it writes the extracted data files.   C    This means that Zip can't use all these tricks when creating the0H archive, but because it doesn't know the archive size in advance, it was@ doomed anyway.  Larger-chunk allocation there is still a winner, however.  6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>  D > It has bothered me.  However, I think it would bother me more if IG > didn't find out until after the file was half written that I couldn'tiG > allocate sufficient space.  I regard the current behavior as a design I > to preserve data integrity by decreasing the chances that an incompleter; > file will be left on disk after a failed unzip operation.t  H    I'd check the status of the UnZip operation, and not trust any of theH results if it failed.  Allocating all the space does not ensure that all the data get written.a  G    Well.  This has certainly been productive.  Unless someone disclosesnD a good reason to do otherwise, I suspect that the next UnZip releaseG will always be doing the full initial allocation, and setting fab$v_sqoa+ to avoid the extended periods of paralysis.t  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547z   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:40:32 +0000p- From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>tM Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought. 8 Message-ID: <tk37q0lvamao7i8q1a3civ58sdp5fpt1vq@4ax.com>  A On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:30:57 -0600 (CST), sms@antinode.org wrote:n  . >   Apparently the answer is to set fab$v_sqo.   Google to the rescue.n  E >   So far as I can tell (DIR /FULL), fab$v_sqo is not a durable file B >attribute, so I don't need to worry about setting it and then notH >restoring the original value.  Confirmation and/or dire warnings to the >contrary would be appreciated.i   RMS manual:r@ "The FAB$V_SQO option is input to the Create and Open services."  F It is not a file attribute, just a declaration of your intents for the current file processing.  J My RMS memory is very rusty tonight, but essentially you are restricted toK sequential reads and writes.  Any attempts at random file access will fail. K Once this is ensured, you can see that the highwater marking may be delayed2K until the eof moves along, or possibly even avoided altogether if RMS nevercH consequently reads any existing data into its buffers before overwritingD them.  As you found run-times almost exactly equivalent to having no8 highwater marking, the latter is a distinct possibility.  I The Google reference I came across (from the famous CJL) was referring to I append access, and querying why the C run-time library failed to set this L bit.  I would have hoped UNZIP put enough clues in the create option for SQOE to be set.  But clearly not, or no amount of clue makes this work.  IkG presume you merely needed to put something like "fop=sqo" in a creat or- fopen call ?   -- -4 The current death rate?  One per person, of course.    Mail john rather than nospam....   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:52:06 -0600 (CST)a From: sms@antinode.orgM Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.a) Message-ID: <04112313520599@antinode.org>o  - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>o  0 > >   Apparently the answer is to set fab$v_sqo. >  > Google to the rescue.t  4    Only if you have a clue as to for what to search.  
 > RMS manual:lB > "The FAB$V_SQO option is input to the Create and Open services." > H > It is not a file attribute, just a declaration of your intents for the > current file processing.       Sounds good (and reasonable).   > [...]tI >  I would have hoped UNZIP put enough clues in the create option for SQODG > to be set.  But clearly not, or no amount of clue makes this work.  I-I > presume you merely needed to put something like "fop=sqo" in a creat orW > fopen call ?  H    Hope all you wish, but clearly you haven't seen this code.  There areF three distinct, medium-to-low-level I/O paths: one for non-V archives,C one for (the default) PK-style -V archives, and one for (the older)e IM-style -V archives..  G    That translates into two instances of "outfab-> fab$v_sqo = 1;", and-5 one of something else to be fed into a "sys$qiow( ...M) IO$_CREATE|IO$M_CREATE|IO$M_ACCESS ...)".c  E    Setting the FAB bit before a sys$create() call seems to work fine,h= as does or-ing FIB$M_SEQONLY into xxx.FIB$L_ACCTL (along withn@ FIB$M_NOREAD ("no other readers"), without which it's apparently useless) before the qio().      Thanks again for the help.i  F    I do always enjoy telling an HP Web page to search "OpenVMS systemsG sites" for something like "FIB$M_SEQONLY", and getting "No results were G found for your search."  Does anyone _ever_ get any useful results fromy5 this search "feature"?  I can't remember an instance.r  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547I   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:38:53 +0000v- From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>.M Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought. 8 Message-ID: <gsa7q05h8n91r3p1kkhhi8s79tiba42qg7@4ax.com>  A On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:52:06 -0600 (CST), sms@antinode.org wrote:r  . >From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> >u1 >> >   Apparently the answer is to set fab$v_sqo.  >> s >> Google to the rescue. >e5 >   Only if you have a clue as to for what to search.s  - It looks like I used "highwater marking eof".n   >> RMS manual:C >> "The FAB$V_SQO option is input to the Create and Open services."n >> uI >> It is not a file attribute, just a declaration of your intents for them >> current file processing.e > ! >   Sounds good (and reasonable).h >c >> [...]J >>  I would have hoped UNZIP put enough clues in the create option for SQOH >> to be set.  But clearly not, or no amount of clue makes this work.  IJ >> presume you merely needed to put something like "fop=sqo" in a creat or >> fopen call ?f >nI >   Hope all you wish, but clearly you haven't seen this code.  There are>G >three distinct, medium-to-low-level I/O paths: one for non-V archives,cD >one for (the default) PK-style -V archives, and one for (the older) >IM-style -V archives. >.H >   That translates into two instances of "outfab-> fab$v_sqo = 1;", and6 >one of something else to be fed into a "sys$qiow( ...* >IO$_CREATE|IO$M_CREATE|IO$M_ACCESS ...)".  J Argh, it's talking to the disk ACP direct:-(  One would have hoped all theL -V restore functionality could have been done with higher-level routines andG filling in FAB and XAB blocks, but it appears not.  Coping with new and.K future extensions is always going to be tricky for a 3rd-party utility, andAJ it is possible that more can be done at lower levels.  I dunno.  I do knowL that if I planned to zip files for posterity and wanted to be absolutely andG utterly sure, then creating a single BACKUP saveset and zip'ing that is!H probably the safest bet.  Hides all the VMS-ness inside and compresses a file with a simple structure.   F >   Setting the FAB bit before a sys$create() call seems to work fine,> >as does or-ing FIB$M_SEQONLY into xxx.FIB$L_ACCTL (along withA >FIB$M_NOREAD ("no other readers"), without which it's apparentlyl >useless) before the qio().e >  >   Thanks again for the help. > G >   I do always enjoy telling an HP Web page to search "OpenVMS systemsoH >sites" for something like "FIB$M_SEQONLY", and getting "No results wereH >found for your search."  Does anyone _ever_ get any useful results from6 >this search "feature"?  I can't remember an instance.  J I've sometimes had better results at many a site by using Google's "search? this site" option rather than the site's own search facility...    --  L When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.    Mail john rather than nospam...0   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:46:43 +0000S- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>1M Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.@* Message-ID: <41A3BDD3.2030609@bigpond.com>  - Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann was overheard to say:t  > This leeds me to the question: > F > Is there any idea of speed improvement when allocating a big file on > highwater marked disks?V > 
 > Eberhard  D The difference is HUGE.  The time can come down from many minutes toB a matter of seconds.  I usually get caught with this when I set up9 a new system and forget to set NOHIGHWATER_MARKING befores/ creating pagefiles... just go and get a coffee.u   zen_FTA11> show time    23-NOV-2004 13:59:53i1 zen_FTA11> sysgen create rubbish.bin/size=5000000n6 %SYSGEN-I-CREATED, DBS0:[SCRATCH]RUBBISH.BIN;1 created zen_FTA11> show time    23-NOV-2004 14:00:02e zen_FTA11> del rubbish.bin;p. zen_FTA11> set volume dka100/highwater_marking zen_FTA11> show time    23-NOV-2004 14:00:27c1 zen_FTA11> sysgen create rubbish.bin/size=5000000o6 %SYSGEN-I-CREATED, DBS0:[SCRATCH]RUBBISH.BIN;1 created zen_FTA11> show time    23-NOV-2004 14:10:39r
 zen_FTA11>  ! 9 sec as opposed to 10 min 12 sec    Regards, Dave.) -- mD David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:48:17 -0600a6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>M Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.lD Message-ID: <craigberry-CEA6CF.19481723112004@news.isp.giganews.com>  A In article <04112312305755@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org wrote:t  8 > From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> > F > > It has bothered me.  However, I think it would bother me more if II > > didn't find out until after the file was half written that I couldn'trI > > allocate sufficient space.  I regard the current behavior as a designcK > > to preserve data integrity by decreasing the chances that an incompletem= > > file will be left on disk after a failed unzip operation.  > J >    I'd check the status of the UnZip operation, and not trust any of theJ > results if it failed.  Allocating all the space does not ensure that all > the data get written.a  C Obviously.  But what you or I would do isn't the point.  There are kE many, many poor man's transaction processing systems out there where eE somebody downloads a file, unzips it, and processes the results with tG little or no error checking.  If the unzipped file simply isn't there,  H the error is much more likely to be caught and dealt with than if it is A there but is incomplete.  I simply wanted to caution you against RF introducing a new scenario that would exercise this pathology.  Quite G possibly unzip wouldn't do this anyway since I think it only renames a .( temp file as the last step in unpacking.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:39:44 -0600 (CST)s From: sms@antinode.orgM Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.f) Message-ID: <04112321394465@antinode.org>e  6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>  H > > > It has bothered me.  However, I think it would bother me more if IK > > > didn't find out until after the file was half written that I couldn'ttK > > > allocate sufficient space.  I regard the current behavior as a design-M > > > to preserve data integrity by decreasing the chances that an incompleten? > > > file will be left on disk after a failed unzip operation.e > > L > >    I'd check the status of the UnZip operation, and not trust any of theL > > results if it failed.  Allocating all the space does not ensure that all > > the data get written.  > E > Obviously.  But what you or I would do isn't the point.  There are bG > many, many poor man's transaction processing systems out there where  G > somebody downloads a file, unzips it, and processes the results with sI > little or no error checking.  If the unzipped file simply isn't there, kJ > the error is much more likely to be caught and dealt with than if it is C > there but is incomplete.  I simply wanted to caution you against PH > introducing a new scenario that would exercise this pathology.  Quite I > possibly unzip wouldn't do this anyway since I think it only renames a c* > temp file as the last step in unpacking.  D    Actually, what I do is exactly what I'm worried most about.  It's1 what got me involved in this stuff to begin with.f  B    Zip creates the archive as "ZIxxxxxx", and renames it when it'sI complete.  UnZip extracts files directly to their ultimate destinations. -H If someone whacks the program after it allocates the space and before itB fills in the data, then he's out of luck.  If not all the space is5 allocated first, the result is similar, just smaller.D  H    Zip includes checksums for integrity checking, and UnZip recognizes aG truncated archive as an error.  If you wish to rewrite this part of theFC code, I'm sure the Zip developers would be willing to consider youraH offering.  So far, Zip and UnZip lack a BACKUP-like /VERIFY feature, and# I'd not expect that to change soon.   H    If you actually care about the results but can't be bothered to checkA the status of the UnZip operation, then I'm not very sympathetic.o  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgo    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:59:31 -0600t2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>M Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.r+ Message-ID: <41A40723.81A64029@comcast.net>P   sms@antinode.org wrote:  > [snip] >    My questions are: > ' >    1.  Has this bothered anyone else?   @ I'm not bothered by it, since I expect it. I'd like to see it be, otherwise, but I understand the constraints.  6 >    2.  Does anyone else expect to be bothered by it?  A No, unless it suddenly takes much longer in a future VMS version.l  H >    3.  Does anyone, using any software, do such large file allocationsH >        this way?  (My _page_ files are not this big, and SYSGEN CREATEH >        is probably as close as I've previously come to making anythingF >        so big at one time.  I use UnZip considerably more often thanG >        SYSGEN CREATE, too, though, like everyone else, I haven't beeny >        doing files so big.)l    As rarely as I do, I either use:   $ MC SYSGEN CREATE r   ...or...   $ COPY NLA0: filespec/ALLOC=n   C ...followed by SET FILE/END or SET FILE/ATTR to set the end of filev byte/block manually.   -- , David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:f" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:29:31 -0600 (CST)T From: sms@antinode.orgM Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought. ) Message-ID: <04112322293162@antinode.org>N  2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>  ) > >    1.  Has this bothered anyone else?n > B > I'm not bothered by it, since I expect it. I'd like to see it be. > otherwise, but I understand the constraints.  C    Well, you sould have been.  Anyway, now that I've discovered the G miracle bits (fab$v_sqo, FIB$M_SEQONLY, and FIB$M_NOREAD), it should be- all better in the next release.   8 > >    2.  Does anyone else expect to be bothered by it? > C > No, unless it suddenly takes much longer in a future VMS version.e  E    Try using Zip 2.3 on larger files.  I can say with some confidence   that it'll be plenty bothersome.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgd    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:19:44 -0600v6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>M Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought.nD Message-ID: <craigberry-142C4A.23194423112004@news.isp.giganews.com>  A In article <04112321394465@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org wrote:d  8 > From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> >    >>  There are I > > many, many poor man's transaction processing systems out there where oI > > somebody downloads a file, unzips it, and processes the results with cK > > little or no error checking.  If the unzipped file simply isn't there, aL > > the error is much more likely to be caught and dealt with than if it is E > > there but is incomplete.  I simply wanted to caution you against eJ > > introducing a new scenario that would exercise this pathology.  Quite K > > possibly unzip wouldn't do this anyway since I think it only renames a  , > > temp file as the last step in unpacking.   <snip>  D >    Zip creates the archive as "ZIxxxxxx", and renames it when it'sK > complete.  UnZip extracts files directly to their ultimate destinations.    E OK, then you're proposing to remove a defensive programming practice  A that's probably been there for years.  It looks like BACKUP also iE pre-allocates space for the entire file on a restore, which to me is y7 yet another reason to think it's the right thing to do.n  J > If someone whacks the program after it allocates the space and before itD > fills in the data, then he's out of luck.  If not all the space is7 > allocated first, the result is similar, just smaller.-  E The fact that you can't protect from something external whacking the r@ program doesn't mean you shouldn't preserve the existing modest H precautions against exceeding disk quota or filling up the disk.  Maybe H the exception handling is good enough that it will delete an incomplete G file regardless of the reason for incompleteness, but that's something  E worth testing for if you go ahead and give it a couple more possible   reasons.     <snip>  J >    If you actually care about the results but can't be bothered to checkC > the status of the UnZip operation, then I'm not very sympathetic.q  C Assuming the exception handling is rock solid and there aren't any hG latent exit() calls lying around with odd numbers being passed to them sB to indicate a POSIX-style error, then this is merely uncharitable.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:11:21 -0600 (CST)f From: sms@antinode.orgM Subject: Re: Yet another [Un]Zip behavior quirk.  Non-stupid opinions sought. ) Message-ID: <04112400112152@antinode.org>h  6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>  F > >    Zip creates the archive as "ZIxxxxxx", and renames it when it'sM > > complete.  UnZip extracts files directly to their ultimate destinations.   > G > OK, then you're proposing to remove a defensive programming practice 9C > that's probably been there for years.  It looks like BACKUP also eG > pre-allocates space for the entire file on a restore, which to me is h9 > yet another reason to think it's the right thing to do.u  G    Those statements describe Zip and UnZip behavior before and after my/. changes.  What do you think that I'm removing?  E    With my changes, files extracted from non-V archives will, for thehD first time, be fully allocated at once, instead of incrementally.  I% fail to see how this wrecks anything.s  L > > If someone whacks the program after it allocates the space and before itF > > fills in the data, then he's out of luck.  If not all the space is9 > > allocated first, the result is similar, just smaller.o > G > The fact that you can't protect from something external whacking the lB > program doesn't mean you shouldn't preserve the existing modest J > precautions against exceeding disk quota or filling up the disk.  Maybe J > the exception handling is good enough that it will delete an incomplete I > file regardless of the reason for incompleteness, but that's something rG > worth testing for if you go ahead and give it a couple more possible n
 > reasons.  G    Other than the initial larger allocation causing the error sooner, I F fail to see any difference from the previous behavior.  I believe thatF Zip tries to delete a bad temporary ("ZIxxxxxx") before it renames it,F but I doubt that UnZip does anything except fail on a particular file,7 and try to continue (or not).  Just as they did before.n  G    To what "existing modest precautions against exceeding disk quota ordH filling up the disk" do you refer?  So far as I know, these programs tryH to make files and either succeed or fail.  We ain't got no precautions. F We don't need no precautions.  I don't have to show you any _stinking_ precautions!  L > >    If you actually care about the results but can't be bothered to checkE > > the status of the UnZip operation, then I'm not very sympathetic.  > E > Assuming the exception handling is rock solid and there aren't any eI > latent exit() calls lying around with odd numbers being passed to them oD > to indicate a POSIX-style error, then this is merely uncharitable.  H    You lost me there.  I think you may be straying beyond the boundaries$ of the "Non-stupid opinions" region.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orge    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.652 ************************