1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 20 Oct 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 582       Contents:  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question1 Re: CC /MMS_DEPENDENCIES and related difficulties   cognos/ reporting/ contract/ atl! Re: DIAGNOSE failing on VMS Alpha ! Re: DIAGNOSE failing on VMS Alpha  Re: ECU disk Ericsson, OpenVMS and Ingres  Re: Ericsson, OpenVMS and Ingres  Re: Ericsson, OpenVMS and Ingres& HP announces new educational programme  Re: installing Oracle on openVMS  Re: installing Oracle on openVMS  Re: installing Oracle on openVMS  Re: installing Oracle on openVMS RE: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime# Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software  Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors* Retain Trust 'warranty' period almost over> Re: Routine to Resubmit print/batch entries from queue listing Re: RZ28B-VA drives wanted6 smtp error message solved (was Re: smtp error message); Re: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager for VT-compatible terminals & Yahoo: OpenVMS Jobs = Bangalore, India* Re: Yahoo: OpenVMS Jobs = Bangalore, India  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:45:01 -0700 , From: James Nykiel <jnykiel@access4less.net>) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question ; Message-ID: <pan.2004.10.19.22.45.00.16833@access4less.net>   
 Greetings:    I I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two AlphaStation G nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated into C this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the  cluster?  J Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation #17 to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2?      Thanks - Jim  7 On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 16:35:03 -0700, James Nykiel wrote:    > Greetings: >  > F > I am interested in the BA353 and was wondering if the following is aJ > valid configuration (1) RZ28-VA, (1) TLZ07-VA, (1) RRD43-VE.  Is there aE > mnual or configuration guide for the BA353 in .PDF format available  > anywhere?  >  >  > Thanks - Jim   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:48:00 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question * Message-ID: <4175B5C0.C72107F@comcast.net>   James Nykiel wrote:  >  > Greetings: > K > I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two AlphaStation I > nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated into E > this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the 
 > cluster? > L > Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation #19 > to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2?   E Well, I S'POSE you could try it, but you'd have to watch out for SCSI  id.'s and such.   D SCSI cluster using a BA353... Now that's a twist I'd not considered!   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:33:28 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question ( Message-ID: <opsf5al2pwzgicya@hyrrokkin>  6 On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:48:00 -0500, David J Dachtera  " <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:   > James Nykiel wrote:  >>
 >> Greetings:  >>A >> I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two    >> AlphaStation J >> nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated intoF >> this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the >> cluster?  >>L >> Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation   >> #1 : >> to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2? > G > Well, I S'POSE you could try it, but you'd have to watch out for SCSI  > id.'s and such.  > F > SCSI cluster using a BA353... Now that's a twist I'd not considered!  H Doesn't it require differential scsi controllers the way he is proposing to configure it? >        --  C Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:29:02 -0400 ' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> ) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question 0 Message-ID: <ehi4lc.gsu.ln@dadsys2.fuller.local>  
 Ray wrote:  A > The left and center cavities can house 3-1/2 inch (narrow SCSI) G > storageworks bricks. The right cavity is configurable; there are some G > plastic side rails that can be removed/installed and you can move the G > backplane. It can house either a third 3-1/2 inch brick, or there's a F > brick-like metal enclosure for a 5-1/4 inch device. Only 1/2-high isI > supported per the manual. A full-high device will fit, but you take the $ > chance of cooking it (no airflow). > K > The BA353-AE variant came with an RRD43-VE pre-installed, so I'd say it's  > supported.  & Cool.  Learn something new everyday!    1 Thanks (and to Larry K. who responded similarly).    --             Stu    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 11:39:17 -07007 From: jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net (Daryl Jones) : Subject: Re: CC /MMS_DEPENDENCIES and related difficulties< Message-ID: <8a646952.0410191039.42b8a95@posting.google.com>   Dear Steven M. Schweda:   F If my memory serves me correctly, I too had problems with compiler/mmsF to generate dependencies. What I used initially was the Brief Map fileA for the Image dependencies and used the DCL search command on the @ source code for the source code dependencies or compile with out? generating the object file in an empty directory with no links. E Afterwards, I used the difference command between the new and the old C source code to keep track of the dependencies changes caused by the  programmer.   A The sample MMS file is a way to build software for your different F environments: Development, Test, Production Support, and Production byE using process level logicals: XXX_SRC, XXX_OBJ, XXX_LIB, XXX_EXE.  In C your case, it would the different platforms being used: Alpha, VAX, 
 IA64, etc.   I'm sorry for the confusion.   Daryl Jones       G sms@antinode.org wrote in message news:<04101816155107@antinode.org>... = > From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  > G > >    Ah, OK, I have separate directories for executeables for VAX and H > >    Alpha, but I never bothered with objects that way because I don't< > >    bother building on VAX until Alpha is fully debugged. > > ; > >    A simple .LAST with a RENAME may solve your problem.  > G >    I don't think so.  I want to generate the .OBJ (and .OLB and .EXE) F > files where they will be used, and leave them there, so that after II > make a change to some source file, I can get a reasonably minimal build J > with reasonable ease.  If I start renaming files, the next MMS run won't! > see them where they need to be.  > B >    If I wanted only a one-time build procedure, I'd just use theI > BUILD_[UN]ZIP.COM comand procedures I've already written.  I was hoping J > also to come up with a more up-to-date DESCRIP.MMS which included a moreE > realistic set of dependencies than the existing one, and do it in a G > fairly automated way, to reduce the manual error introduction rate as C > the source code changes.  So far, it's been more frustrating than  > rewarding. >  > 9 > From: jones.computer.srv@worldnet.att.net (Daryl Jones)  > L > > The way I would use MMS to build an single Image would be the following.C > > Lets say I create a MMS file called FREDA.MMS that contains the  > > following:	 > > [...]  > E >    None of this helps me automatically generate useful dependencies  > using CC /MMS, does it?  > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org  >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:22:13 -0400 0 From: "Tom Gugger" <tgugger@buckeye-express.com>) Subject: cognos/ reporting/ contract/ atl - Message-ID: <4175698f$1_5@alt.athenanews.com>   8                                               OMNI GROUP  =                                   tgugger@buckeye-express.com   9                                              419-380-8853       -              COGNOS/ REPORTING/ CONTRACT/ ATL       .                         OMNI GROUP is  looking  ?   For a Cognos reporting consultant on the business side.  They   > are going to be doing sales reporting like compensation and it  C will go at least 5-6 months.  The position is in Atlanta, and it is    an early November start date.   ?   If interested and qualified, please answer the five questions   8 Below, and email answers WITH a resume to the following:   tgugger@buckeye-express.com.  C   1.. Cognos reporting experience/business side--------------months G   2.. Citizenship status----------------------------------------------- I   3.. Available---------------------------------------------------------- H   4.. Sales reporting experience----------------------------------months9   5.. rate 1099-------------------------------------pr hr  1099= You pay your own expenses    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:21:57 GMT 0 From: John Santos <john.santos@post.harvard.edu>* Subject: Re: DIAGNOSE failing on VMS Alpha> Message-ID: <MPG.1bdf41737cf229de9896e4@news.bellatlantic.net>   In article  @ <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE8605AED22B@lespaul.process.com>,  Duffy@process.com says...  > $ > OpenVMS V7.3 on AlphaServer DS10L. > > > Every now and then, DIAGNOSE fails in the following fashion: > 4 > $ diagnose sys$errorlog:errlog.sys /out=errlog.out >  > DECevent V3.4 = > %CMA-F-EXCCOP, exception raised; VMS condition code follows D > -SYSTEM-F-STKOVF, stack overflow, PC=00000000002D9D70, PS=0000001BJ > %CMA-F-EXCEPTION, exception raised; address of exception object 003B6800 > = > Starting with a new errlog.sys fixes it for a month or two.  > D > I suppose what I want to do is increase KSTACKPAGES (currently 2.)= > But since (if all goes well) I won't be rebooting for about @ > six months, I'd like to ask here before finding out next year ! > that I changed the wrong thing.  > = > Is KSTACKPAGES the appropriate thing to fix?  If so, by how  > much?  > 	 > Thanks,  > Mike Duffy  ? I think if the kernel stack overflowed, the system would crash.   > It is almost certainly your process stack that is overflowing.; The stack grows dynamically in P1 space.  I think your only ; limit is your page file quota.  Try raising it in AUTHORIZE > with /PGFLQUO.  You'll have to log out and back in to make the new value take effect.  < There could be a bug in DIAGNOSE that uses infinite stack if@ it hits a certain (possibly bogus) type of record in errlog.sys,2 in which case no amount of stack space would help.   --   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:57:44 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>* Subject: Re: DIAGNOSE failing on VMS Alpha+ Message-ID: <4175B808.E61AF579@comcast.net>    Mike Duffy wrote:  > $ > OpenVMS V7.3 on AlphaServer DS10L. > > > Every now and then, DIAGNOSE fails in the following fashion: > 4 > $ diagnose sys$errorlog:errlog.sys /out=errlog.out >  > DECevent V3.4 = > %CMA-F-EXCCOP, exception raised; VMS condition code follows D > -SYSTEM-F-STKOVF, stack overflow, PC=00000000002D9D70, PS=0000001BJ > %CMA-F-EXCEPTION, exception raised; address of exception object 003B6800 > = > Starting with a new errlog.sys fixes it for a month or two.   F For best results, start a new ERRLOG.SYS file weekly, sooner if you'reG using any third-party SCSI devices (like non-HP-badged DLT drives) that * don't quite "play nice" with DKRIVER, etc.  B DIAGNOSE (DECevent) and WEBES are garbage. None of it can handle aG reasonably sized ERRLOG.SYS file and since the bulk of it is written in A Java, the CPU cycles consumed are simply obscene given the meagre  results received.   C Exactly why did ANALYZE/ERROR get trashed? Your guess is as good as  theirs.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:43:14 +0200 - From: Alex van Denzel <vandenzel@hotmail.com>  Subject: Re: ECU disk 7 Message-ID: <41755f9e$0$76533$b83b6cc0@news.wanadoo.nl>    Keith A. Lewis wrote:    > "Rob H" <robert.heyes@btinternet.com> writes in article <cl1i0j$n74$2@hercules.btinternet.com> dated Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:01:39 +0000 (UTC):  > M >>Where can I obtain an EISA (ECU) disk for an Alpha Server 1000? Can anyone   >>send me a link or the files? > J > Me too!  Except I need one for an Alphastation 500/400, specifically the > audio device file.  ! ECU for AlphaServer 2100? Anyone?    -- Alex.    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 15:20:27 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)% Subject: Ericsson, OpenVMS and Ingres = Message-ID: <f30679fb.0410191420.36d4bab0@posting.google.com>   9 Ericsson uses Ingres databases running under OpenVMS for   their Pre Paid Systems.   8 http://www.ericsson.com/ie/training/courses/prd305.shtml  E If the Oracle Team were intelligent they would help Ericsson to port  E from (Open)Ingres to Oracle RDB and improve the installed base of RDB  gaining a power client.    What is the future of Ingres  ?      Regards    FC   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:26:11 GMT ' From: "Tom M" <kryios@spam.comcast.net> ) Subject: Re: Ericsson, OpenVMS and Ingres . Message-ID: <Dgidd.422685$Fg5.50699@attbi_s53>  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message 7 news:f30679fb.0410191420.36d4bab0@posting.google.com... : > Ericsson uses Ingres databases running under OpenVMS for > their Pre Paid Systems.  > : > http://www.ericsson.com/ie/training/courses/prd305.shtml > F > If the Oracle Team were intelligent they would help Ericsson to portG > from (Open)Ingres to Oracle RDB and improve the installed base of RDB  > gaining a power client.  > ! > What is the future of Ingres  ?  >   J Development and support for VMS continue.  New versions are being releasedK as opensource, see http://opensource.ca.com/projects/ingres/   R3 (the open K source version) is currently available on Linux and is in beta for Windows.    > 	 > Regards  >  > FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:59:24 +0800 @ From: Tim Sneddon <first-initiallastname@bsddotinfomedia.com.au>) Subject: Re: Ericsson, OpenVMS and Ingres + Message-ID: <2tlrjcF1vk0soU1@uni-berlin.de>    Tom M wrote:= > "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message 9 > news:f30679fb.0410191420.36d4bab0@posting.google.com...  > : >>Ericsson uses Ingres databases running under OpenVMS for >>their Pre Paid Systems.  >>: >>http://www.ericsson.com/ie/training/courses/prd305.shtml >>F >>If the Oracle Team were intelligent they would help Ericsson to portG >>from (Open)Ingres to Oracle RDB and improve the installed base of RDB  >>gaining a power client.  >>! >>What is the future of Ingres  ?  >> >  > L > Development and support for VMS continue.  New versions are being releasedM > as opensource, see http://opensource.ca.com/projects/ingres/   R3 (the open M > source version) is currently available on Linux and is in beta for Windows.   I Answers to questions about VMS on the forum suggest that once the Windows B version is out of the way a VMS source kit will be made available.  
 Regards, Tim.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:05:14 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> / Subject: HP announces new educational programme , Message-ID: <4175F1DA.3EC2278B@teksavvy.com>   from: T > http://news.com.com/HP+gives+schools+a+break/2100-1012_3-5417621.html?tag=nefd.hed  J Hewlett-Packard launched a discount program on Tuesday for institutions of higher learning.    J Under the Campus Investment Program, universities and colleges that use HPK workstations and servers can get the company's Unix operating system, HP-UX  11i, free of charge.    L The company, based in Palo Alto, Calif., is also offering discounts of up toN 45 percent on various software products, including its clustering software, HP Serviceguard.   M Academic institutions can receive free updates of software packages purchased N once and also perpetual licenses, which do not require yearly renewal. SystemsN registered under the program will be eligible for special discounts on support
 services.   N Technology companies have been targeting the education market, which is slatedE by research firm IDC to grow to $9.5 billion by 2006, for some time.    G The popularity enjoyed by Linux among researchers and students is being K exploited by companies such as Red Hat and SuSE Linux to sell their desktop 4 and server software products at a discounted price.   & --------------------------------------  ' Another missed opportunity to push VMS.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:07:02 +0200   From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>) Subject: Re: installing Oracle on openVMS - Message-ID: <cl3okm$2733$1@news.cybercity.dk>   3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message ! news:417528C0.F4AB2A1B@aaa.com...  > Hi. A > You don't say if you have a specific need for Oracle (Classic), B > but note that you are allowed to run Oralce Rdb (which is a much< > better database mgmt system, of course :-) ) for free in a? > non-profit environment. Well, even fr "development-only", if  > I'm not wrong. > B > B.t.w, "sa" (for "system administator"), isn't that the usernameD > that was used in Sybase (and of course now in MS SQL Server, since2 > that's nothing but the old "Sybase for NT"...) ? >   E Actually, IIRC the last "Sybase" version of SQLServer was like 4.1 or K similar.  It sucked so bad they had to rewrite SQLServer from scratch.  The 2 name stayed the same, only the product changed :-)  K IIRC a couple of guys from Rdb engineering took the opportunity to join the K team.  I guess they have about 117,000 engineers working on SQLServer these  days.   	 Dr. Dweeb    > Jan-Erik.  >  > Simon Stirley wrote: > >  > > Hi,  > > C > > I've got an old DEC Alpha that I've installed openVMS (Hobbyist J > > license) onto, and am now trying to get Oracle setup. Everytime I comeJ > > to run the installer (@runInstaller off Disk1) it tells me I must haveH > > certain permissions for the current user - but from what I can see IJ > > have those permissions. Is this a common problem that anyone knows how > > to solve ? thanks. > > G > > PS. the user I created to install under is 'sa' and has permissions % > > added with AUTHORIZE as follows - 
 > > CMKRNL	 > > GROUP 	 > > WORLD 
 > > GRPNAM
 > > SYSNAM > > G > > The 'system' account itself doesn't work as the installer won't let ? > > you install under that, or any account in the system group.    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 13:44:31 -0700, From: JimStrehlow@data911.com (Jim Strehlow)) Subject: Re: installing Oracle on openVMS < Message-ID: <4b6ec350.0410191244.308de59@posting.google.com>  c simon@stirley.me.uk (Simon Stirley) wrote in message news:<417512bf.1822545441@news.demon.co.uk>... C ... I've got an old DEC Alpha that I've installed openVMS (Hobbyist H > license) onto, and am now trying to get Oracle setup. Everytime I comeH > to run the installer (@runInstaller off Disk1) it tells me I must haveF > certain permissions for the current user - but from what I can see IH > have those permissions. Is this a common problem that anyone knows how > to solve ? thanks.  % Please help us with more information.  OpenVMS version ...?& Oracle (which product?) which version?  B I have historically installed Oracle RDBMS standard and enterpriseE editions version 8.0.5,  8.1.7.4,  and  9.2  onto OpenVMS AlphaServer  v7.2, v7.3, and v7.3-1.   * There are different requirements for each.   Jim Strehlow, Alameda, CA, USA   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:24:34 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> ) Subject: Re: installing Oracle on openVMS ' Message-ID: <41758612.8B89DB9A@aaa.com>    "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > G > Actually, IIRC the last "Sybase" version of SQLServer was like 4.1 or M > similar.  It sucked so bad they had to rewrite SQLServer from scratch.  The 4 > name stayed the same, only the product changed :-)  B That was the version where they (Sybase and MS) split apart, not ?) 4.1 was the last "Sybase for NT", AFAIK ?   D My picture is that the name changed, but the product (the db engine)- was the same (but later on with fancy GUI's).   % Yes, MS says they did major rewrites, 6 but I don't think in the engine, more in the GUI part.  D I have personly help a MS SQL Server admin that had messed up thingsH on his MS SQL Server 6.5 system (using the GUI of course). When you haveD run your logs full, you have to make a "dump transaction with nolog"F to free up some space. He forgot the "with nolog" part and had then toG do a "drop database" (still from the GUI, of course). While doing this, D the admin decided that the server was "hung" and just killed it fromF Windows. It wasn't hung, and he now had a half-dropped database. ThereB was some inconsistencis in the system tables. A new "drop db" said9 "no such db", and a "create db" said "db already exists".   E Then he called for me. I had been sys admin for a Sybase 4.1.9 on VMS  for H many years (and Rdb and Oracle7 at the same time on the same AS2100...),7 only using the command line interface (ISQL) of course.   D Now, what was insteresting was that all system tables in MS SQL Serv@ 6.5 was exactly the same as in the old (original) Sybase server.  D I could fix the problem by dropping some allocated "segments" in oneG of the system tables, and the "create db" work OK again. All only using G what I remembered from the Sybase time (and that the MS sys admin never , leared on all his courses). No MS docs used.  C A lot of the real problems with Sybase is/was the way "devices" was D allocated and how databases is/was allocated on the devices. I don'tE know how much of this has changed in later "MS-versions" of Sybase...   < Maybe the later "7" and "2xxx" versions was/are different...  	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 18:00:38 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) ) Subject: Re: installing Oracle on openVMS = Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0410191700.57813578@posting.google.com>   c simon@stirley.me.uk (Simon Stirley) wrote in message news:<417512bf.1822545441@news.demon.co.uk>...  > Hi,  > A > I've got an old DEC Alpha that I've installed openVMS (Hobbyist H > license) onto, and am now trying to get Oracle setup. Everytime I comeH > to run the installer (@runInstaller off Disk1) it tells me I must haveF > certain permissions for the current user - but from what I can see IH > have those permissions. Is this a common problem that anyone knows how > to solve ? thanks. > E > PS. the user I created to install under is 'sa' and has permissions # > added with AUTHORIZE as follows -  > CMKRNL > GROUP  > WORLD  > GRPNAM > SYSNAM > E > The 'system' account itself doesn't work as the installer won't let = > you install under that, or any account in the system group. 4 It's best to stick with the "usual" setup for oracle8 I don't know if it depends on a specific username or uic Phil: Username: ORACLE8                          Owner:  ORACLE8H Account:                                   UIC:    [377,200] ([ORACLE8])< CLI:      DCL                              Tables: DCLTABLES Default:  DKA0:[ORACLE8] LGICMD:   LOGIN.COM  Flags:  DisPwdDic DisPwdHis + Primary days:   Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri         + Secondary days:                     Sat Sun  No access restrictionsD Expiration:            (none)    Pwdminimum:  6   Login Fails:     0? Pwdlifetime:           (none)    Pwdchange:  17-AUG-2004 13:15  P Last Login: 17-AUG-2004 12:24 (interactive), 19-OCT-2004 16:20 (non-interactive)9 Maxjobs:         0  Fillm:       200  Bytlm:       250000 9 Maxacctjobs:     0  Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:           0 9 Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:       150  JTquota:       8192 9 Prclm:           8  DIOlm:       150  WSdef:         2048 9 Prio:            4  ASTlm:       250  WSquo:         4096 9 Queprio:         0  TQElm:        10  WSextent:     16384 9 CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:      5000  Pgflquo:     750000  Authorized Privileges:  I   BYPASS       CMKRNL       IMPERSONATE  LOG_IO       NETMBX       PFNMAP I   PRMGBL       PRMMBX       SYSGBL       SYSLCK       SYSNAM       SYSPRV    TMPMBX       WORLD Default Privileges: I   BYPASS       CMKRNL       IMPERSONATE  LOG_IO       NETMBX       PFNMAP I   PRMGBL       PRMMBX       SYSGBL       SYSLCK       SYSNAM       SYSPRV    TMPMBX       WORLD= Identifier                         Value           Attributes  Identifiers held by ORACLE8 : -   ORA_DBA                          %X80010033    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:39:49 -0400 $ From: "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu>' Subject: RE: J F on why USA is a regime H Message-ID: <957B7AB3AFF9EB4182E46BD96F48B77B02B3ABA0@helium.towson.edu>  . Please stop all this pretentious nonsense. =20  C The world will just have to come to the realization that the United 3 States is not Canada, and we are not Quebecois. =20   ( Period.  'Nuff said on this topic, okay?   Guy Noce Business Services Manager   F "You ask a child if he's seen a brown star around, And he'll laugh andD jump up and down and say, I found a brown star right on the ground." --Don Van Vliet    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 16:43:38 -05004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime 3 Message-ID: <Boi8q+TdWYJV@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <Z9Fbd.4476$SZ5.3725@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, "Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowLUCKBEALADYTONIGHT@earthlink.net> writes:  >  > Poor J F wrote:  >  >> J F  M e z e i  wrote:  >> >> >Jeff Hacker wrote: >> >" >> >>JF, stay out of our politics. >> >L >> >Then the USA should stay out of other country's politics. As soon as the > USa J >> >startes to interfere with other countries, then oyher countries have a > right $ >> >to criticise the USA's policies. >> > >> >I >> >> and (2) 50% of the country LIKES the President.  (3) in the U.S. we  > don't 3 >> >> have a "regime" but rather an administration.  >> >M >> >The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a "regime".  >> >I >> >The day the USA began to torture prisoners (both from afghanistan and  > Iraq), >> >it became a regime >> >F >> >The day the USA began to arrest and piut in prison humans residing > legally inJ >> >the USA and detained then for long period without charghe or due legal  >> >process, it became a regime. >> >K >> >And as long as the USA continues to abuse military power to attack/kill & >> >civilians in Iraq, it is a regime. >> > >> >Need I go on ? >>/ >> Nah, just kill yourself and be done with it.  >  > *lol*  > K > Poor JF fails to discern the difference between poor governing abilities, N > e.g. the Bush administration and totalitarianism.  In JF's eyes,  both NorthM > Korea and the US are both on an equal footing as "rogue states", absolutely K > no diff between 'em.  Utter nonsense, of course...but this is the kind of N > feeble "reasoning" JF and his elk are reduced to...they've nothing but blind  B I normally ignore JF posts, and posts relating to JF, but this one3 has imparted new information that must be shared...   F JF has an elk, and they both have feeble "reasoning".  I was not awareF that elk were sentient until now.  The jury is still out regarding JF.F Some think his trolls are just output form a poorly programmed Turing = test responder hooked up to a c.o.v. centric newsreader.  :^p    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:56:05 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime = Message-ID: <Yc6dnYFv3dS2BujcRVn-jw@metrocastcablevision.com>   5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:417532FE.9060106@tsoft-inc.com... > Bill Todd wrote: > 9 > > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & > > news:4172160D.503@tsoft-inc.com... > >  > >>Bill Todd wrote: > >>1 > >>It's always nice to hear fromt he far left...  > >> > > I > > Not that one ever does around here.  I'm strictly a centrist, myself:  it'sH > > just that a lot of people have been listening to rabid ideologues so long1 > > that they have forgotten where the center is.  >  > L > Location can be based upon perspective.  So even while you are far 'left', you A > look around and determine that you are at the center of things.   E Or perhaps it's people like you whose perspective is severely skewed.   H I was a centrist several decades ago, and haven't changed my orientationH since (though my *approach* to that orientation has become somewhat moreL radical as the country's political center has moved to the right).  Since byL the standards of the rest of the world the U.S. has become downright fascistI in its behavior and attitudes, I have no problem at all still considering H myself to be a centrist, though possibly no longer in U.S.-centric termsF (I'd *hope* that the general population isn't nearly as fascist as theL behavior they're supporting is, just as the general population of Germany inL the 1930s may not have been nearly as fascist as the regime *they* supported7 was, but that is, unfortunately, yet to be determined).    >  > : > >>>"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message+ > >>>news:4170088A.6070901@tsoft-inc.com...  > >>>  > >>>... > >>>  > >>>  > >>> G > >>>>>>The day the USA began its illegal invasion of Iraq, it became a  > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>"regime". > >>>  > >>> L > >>>>It's even more illegal and a crime against humanity to allow something > >>>> > >>>>	 > >>>like  > >>>  > >>> K > >>>>Saddam to remain in power and impose harm on those within and outside  > >>>> > >>>>
 > >>>Iraq. > >>> H > >>>Actually, the latter is not technically illegal at all, whereas the > >>>  > > invasion > >  > >>>most assuredly was. > >>>  > >>E > >>I guess it depends who is defining 'illegal'.  In "Dave's World",  someone  > >> > > like > > D > >>Saddam is definitely 'illegal'.  Possible not in "Bill's World". > >> > > K > > I hadn't realized that you had your own private fiefdom wherein you got  toG > > define legality.  In the world that most of the rest of us inhabit,  legalityH > > is defined by governmental entities, and that's the definition I was using. >  > J > Strange.  I thought that the people, as a group, defined the government.  J You're seriously confused, David - or perhaps just reluctant to accept the fact that you misspoke.   E We may (at least nominally) define the government, but the government I defines the laws, and the laws (with the assistance of the courts) define K what's 'legal', without any recourse to a popular referendum on the subject F (the most effect that popular sentiment.can have on what's legal is toI pressure its representatives to change it, and only after that change has $ occurred does what is legal change).  I If you apply the same level of analytical thinking to such questions that B you presumably apply to technical issues, you'll probably start to understand them much better.   ...   K > > But in matters like this one you don't seem particularly concerned with  muchJ > > beyond your own prejudices, so I doubt that factual issues matter much toH > > you.  Which is why people like you should be prevented (by 'whatever means > > > necessary') from imposing their uninformed will on others. >  > L > Now that's really humorous.  When I propose "whatever means necessary" you get K > bent out of shape.  But it seems that "whatever means necessary" is quite  Ok for > you, and youe 'Elk'.  :-)   L It has to do with the difference between aggression and self-defense.  WhileK I abhor the *need* for violence of any form, there's no reasonable argument L for denying people who are oppressed the right to oppose that oppression 'byI whatever means necessary' - the inclusion of the word 'necessary' clearlynG requiring that they have exhausted other reasonable avenues for redresseK first (and if you're not aware of the history of attempts to do so, that is L merely a reflection of your own ignorance; by contrast, our own actions haveI very definitely jumped the gun to a 'shoot first and ask questions later'n stance).  J There's a great deal of truth to the adage "One man's terrorist is anotherJ man's freedom fighter."  The behavior that you don't seem to approve of isH hardly distinguishable from that which we grimly applauded 6 decades agoE from the French Resistance - another fine example of the influence ofr perspective.   ...t  J > Some have maintained that 'legality comes from the barrel of a gun'.  In then > end, sadly it's true.a  I Not in this country, at least not according to its existing Constitution.e> Again, you seem to be confusing the law with what backs it up.   ...   K > >>>Attitudes like yours are a significant part of the reason that a largeOL > >>>portion of the world would stand up and cheer if Washington, D.C., wereK > >>>wiped off the face of the earth - not as vengeance so much as to knocke > >>>1 > > us > >:H > >>>down enough pegs to make us cease being a threat to the rest of the > >>>n > > planet.e > > I > >>>Until we change our attitude significantly, you can count me in that: > >>>  > > number.l > >k > >>>- billc > >>>c > >>E > >>So you would actually cheer if hundreds of thousands of people ine > >> > > Washington > >  > >>D.C. were to die?h > >> > >uK > > Yes:  the currently-popular phrase for that is 'collateral damage', ands ifH > > that's what it takes to stop our insanity (the condition I specified above),aI > > so be it.  My guess is that it might well actually minimize the total  loss> > > of life compared to the situation if we are *not* stopped. >d >sC > In 'Dave's World', there is no such thing as 'collateral damage'.(  L Too bad your world doesn't happen to include Iraq.  But then it seems ratherG isolated from reality in multiple respects:  it may make *you* happy to-F escape there, but it really doesn't seem to have much relevance to the *real* world as it exists.     If 'Bill's2 > World' supports the idea of 'collateral damage',  L My world, like the real one, accepts the *reality* of collateral damage.  MyH world expects such damage to be minimized, according to the abilities ofG those prosecuting a war to do so.  We're barely making even superficialnL attempts to do so in Iraq, despite our overwhelming military superiority andG hence *ability* to minimize it if we were truly interested, whereas anySJ 'terrorist' organization mounting a retaliatory attack on Washington would8 hardly have the resources to be finicky about its scope.    then I suggest that youE > practice what you preach, and be the first to experience first handI 'collaterale# > damage'.  No?  I didn't think so.J  J You appear to have started holding a discussion with yourself above, which& is often not a good sign of stability.  .   People who think thus, always deem it proper! > for others, but not themselves.-  H And now you're drawing conclusions based on that discussion that you andJ yourself just conducted.  Allow me to observe that the only possibly validI conclusions one could draw from such a discussion would apply to oneself.0  J I accept my portion of responsibility for not having prevented (not that IL didn't try) our country from engaging in activities that justify the kind ofI retaliation we're likely to see.  If I lived in a likely target area, I'd L seriously consider moving - and in no way blame 'the terrorists' for needingJ to do so.  If I or anyone I seriously cared about actually became a targetH anyway (not that I feel any inclination to become one:  once again, your> implied logic above is rather strange), I hope I'd understand.  D When I selected a location for our house, I avoided areas subject toJ flooding (the main natural disaster one needs to worry about in this area)D and gave some consideration to avoiding major population centers andI military targets (this was back before the end of the Cold War).  It just I seemed prudent, and I didn't spend any time berating Mother Nature or the - Soviet Union for having to make such choices.   J Not that I wasn't happy to see the Cold War end, of course.  And I'd be atK least as happy to see the current global stand-off end, but until *we* taketD the steps we need to to accomplish that goal I'm ready to accept theF consequences of my failure to keep the country for which I'm partiallyJ personally responsible from being a legitimate target, while not going outA of my way to be a target myself (save perhaps of the more fascistcJ contingents right here at home, because I *do* feel an obligation to stand  up and be counted against them).  ,   A bit like the hyprocrisy of the terroristF > leaders.  Those cowards will recruit others for suicide attacks, but	 strangly,d2 > they themselves never seem to make such attacks.  H Very much like the military:  it's been a very, very long time since theK general staff led the charges - but I guess that thought wouldn't slow down0= for a second someone with the prejudices you so clearly hold.r  E It is yet another sad fact of the reality which you seem so intent oneE ignoring that individuals vary in their ability to contribute to mosteI endeavors, including violent struggles.  Any sane organization recognizes > these differences and attempts to use its resources optimally.  J Of course, that doesn't necessarily imply cowardice or lack of commitment.H Osama bin Laden, for example, (remember him?  he's supposedly the reasonK we're in Iraq, sort of...) had every incentive to live a life of luxury andrL personal security, but instead exposed himself to decades of severe personalD danger and hardship (including, we're told, life-threatening medical. problems) to support the cause he believes in.   >y > : > >   I guess I just have to ask, did you cheer as the WTC > >a > >>buildings fell?n > >> > >eH > > No:  it only became clear to me in retrospect just how justified the attack@ > > had been, primarily due to the nature of our response to it. >o >hJ > So, if I punch you in the mouth, you're going to just accept the damage? You'reG > not going to attempt to stop me from doing so again?  Forgive me if I  don'te > believe that.   ? This talking with yourself is getting a bit out of hand, David.   H If you punched me in the mouth, unless you already had your fist visiblyL cocked to do so again *instantly* my first thought *should* be to ask myselfC why, and what appropriate action I might take to avoid a recurrenceiI (retaliation being only one of many possible options that might, or mightyK not, be appropriate).  Because the alternative to such introspection is for 4 every such encounter to become a fight to the death.  K Think about that one for a bit, if you haven't completely switched off your  faculties for higher reasoning.    ...   K > Well, there we seem to be in agreement.  Actually, anyone who cares about E > freedom should be very afraid.  Very very afraid.  I have to wonderu whether any K > of the world's tyrants throughout history were ever deemed to be a tyrant  when! > they were just getting started.   L Actually, people like you are kind of late in getting the word.  The rest ofF the world has been becoming increasingly uneasy with us for at least aL decade (I'd say longer, but the Cold War stand-off complicated such emotions
 before then).l  K Bush is just another (mis)step along a road we've been traveling for a longtE time now.  While Clinton was far smoother and less actively intent on.L careering down that road, there are serious questions about the propriety ofJ our intervention in Kosovo (and especially some of our military actions inK Serbia) - in particular, about whether the situation on the ground prior to(K that intervention was as it was presented to us (funny how much that brings K the more recent incursion into Iraq to mind) - which make me ashamed of not1B having questioned it at the time (I was a gung-ho supporter of ourG willingness to step in to prevent a 'genocide' which may, it turns out,8I largely have been the creation of Albanian nationalists trying to stir up K exactly such an intervention, though Milosevic's heavy-handed mismanagement G of the situation certainly helped foster that impression - again, quite J reminiscent of the more recent situation in Iraq).  Was this really a 'wagK the dog' response to Monicagate after all, as some people said at the time,eH or just another periodic flexing of America's imperialist muscles, since' Iraq had gotten somewhat stale by then?i  G Gulf War I may have been the right thing to do, though questions remaintJ about the signals we were giving to Saddam right before he invaded Kuwait.I But we've done plenty of global meddling (since Vietnam, which apparently J only convinced us to set aside *direct* military intervention for a while)K without having to include that one, from the Iran-Contra fiasco back to theiK covert undermining of Allende (and, oh yes, giving Osama a great jump-start B in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets there, and then abandoning our< commitments to that country as soon as the Soviets left it).  H Lest you have missed it, Kerry stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Bush notJ only on Iraq (well, in the past few weeks he's been getting worried by theF polls and has *finally* started to criticize the *decision* to invade,F rather than just nit-pick about the invasion's management:  too bad heI didn't do so beforehand, when it might have made a difference) but on the H abandonment of the agreed-upon peace process by Ariel Sharon, the activeI undermining of the democratic government of Huge Chavez in Venezuela, theuK continued hostile attitude toward a Cuba which has been actively interestednK in improved relations for many, many years - and that's just off the top of,E my head.  While one might debate about just how different they are onnI domestic issues, I'll leave that for another time:  internationally, most J informed observers agree that they're two peas in a pod, just that Kerry'sH pea has a softer glove on it (much as the Democratic 'Progressive Policy> Institute' is merely a slightly kinder, gentler version of theI neo-conservative Project for a New American Century think-tank which tookiE the second Iraq war proposals public back in 1998, though some of its = members had been promoting them since the end of Gulf War I).    ...    > So summing up: >r >sF > 1) Bill seems to believe in collateral damage, but possibly only for others.o  L I tend to believe in reality, rather than fantasies that might seem to serveF my argument.  When a war is being fought, collateral damage is a fact, David.  L And, once again, your last phrase seems to say rather more about you than it does about me.   >p< > 2) Bill seems to think that if it's 'legal', then it's Ok.  B No:  Bill thinks that if it's 'legal', then it's, well, legal, andK conversely.  Legality was the concept you chose to misrepresent, but I hopeo" you're now less confused about it.   > K > 3) Bill seems to think that the US has earned the 'right' to be attacked.e   Yup.  That one you got right.r   >SB > Please correct me if any of the above conclusions are incorrect.   Always happy to help.s   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 19:45:42 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime0= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0410191845.58dc60e4@posting.google.com>d  o "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<Yc6dnYFv3dS2BujcRVn-jw@metrocastcablevision.com>...r7 > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message'( > news:417532FE.9060106@tsoft-inc.com... > > Bill Todd wrote: > >); > > > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messageE( > > > news:4172160D.503@tsoft-inc.com... > > >  > > >>Bill Todd wrote: > > >>3 > > >>It's always nice to hear fromt he far left...a > > >> > > >lK > > > Not that one ever does around here.  I'm strictly a centrist, myself:l >  it's J > > > just that a lot of people have been listening to rabid ideologues so >  longe3 > > > that they have forgotten where the center is.i > >O > >S [...]sG > > >>So you would actually cheer if hundreds of thousands of people ina > > >> > > > Washington > > >w > > >>D.C. were to die?  > > >> > > >-M > > > Yes:  the currently-popular phrase for that is 'collateral damage', and  >  ifzJ > > > that's what it takes to stop our insanity (the condition I specified
 >  above),K > > > so be it.  My guess is that it might well actually minimize the totalm >  lossi@ > > > of life compared to the situation if we are *not* stopped. > >  > >:E > > In 'Dave's World', there is no such thing as 'collateral damage'.p > N > Too bad your world doesn't happen to include Iraq.  But then it seems ratherI > isolated from reality in multiple respects:  it may make *you* happy tolH > escape there, but it really doesn't seem to have much relevance to the > *real* world as it exists. >  >   If 'Bill's4 > > World' supports the idea of 'collateral damage', > N > My world, like the real one, accepts the *reality* of collateral damage.  MyJ > world expects such damage to be minimized, according to the abilities ofI > those prosecuting a war to do so.  We're barely making even superficialrN > attempts to do so in Iraq, despite our overwhelming military superiority andI > hence *ability* to minimize it if we were truly interested, whereas any L > 'terrorist' organization mounting a retaliatory attack on Washington would: > hardly have the resources to be finicky about its scope.  F Hmmm. The terrorist is trying to maximize collateral damage. If the USA would try to maximize collateral damage, it would let loose a few@F nukes. What do you think the goal in Iraq is, Bill? To kill civilians?B Is that the goal? Whether the war was right or wrong I will remain= silent, but I think you are being unfair in your accusations.r  D I must say I find it interesting that Japan, on which the US droppedF not one, but two, nuclear bombs, is now our friend. Should they attackB us now in revenge? Would you find that justified? (Just an aside.)  = Now these Iraqi terrorists, Bill, just whose freedom are they A defending? Their defending their freedom to become the new highlyeE oppressive dictatorship of Iraq. That is what they are defending. AndeC if they could, they would kill all Americans without hesitation. Wey" can kill all Iraqis, but we don't.  C You seem to treat all parties as equals. Some parties ARE evil from- any perspective.  ? Yes, it's a mess, but I don't see the Iraqi terrorists in beingeD justified contributing to such a mess, and without them, it wouldn't6 be a mess. Without the war, it would be a Saddam mess.  < Bill, suppose there were no backlash in Iraq. No beheadings,B kidnappings, etc. What do you think would happen? Do you think theF U.S. would simply just go around killing more and more Iraqis like you seem to be accusing it of?   >  >  then I suggest that youG > > practice what you preach, and be the first to experience first handh >  'collateral% > > damage'.  No?  I didn't think so.  > L > You appear to have started holding a discussion with yourself above, which( > is often not a good sign of stability. > 0 >   People who think thus, always deem it proper# > > for others, but not themselves.s > J > And now you're drawing conclusions based on that discussion that you andL > yourself just conducted.  Allow me to observe that the only possibly validK > conclusions one could draw from such a discussion would apply to oneself.o > L > I accept my portion of responsibility for not having prevented (not that IN > didn't try) our country from engaging in activities that justify the kind ofK > retaliation we're likely to see.  If I lived in a likely target area, I'dm  > Retaliating for what? Getting rid of Saddam in hopes of makingC something better? Maybe we should just put Saddam back in power and=C let him take care of things. I'm sure, given some weapons, he wouldrE get Iraq back to order and calmness very quickly. Minus a few hundredg( thousand people, i.e., if even that few.  N > seriously consider moving - and in no way blame 'the terrorists' for needingL > to do so.  If I or anyone I seriously cared about actually became a target  % This statement is simply incredible. i  J > anyway (not that I feel any inclination to become one:  once again, your@ > implied logic above is rather strange), I hope I'd understand. > F > When I selected a location for our house, I avoided areas subject toL > flooding (the main natural disaster one needs to worry about in this area)F > and gave some consideration to avoiding major population centers andK > military targets (this was back before the end of the Cold War).  It just9K > seemed prudent, and I didn't spend any time berating Mother Nature or the / > Soviet Union for having to make such choices.c > L > Not that I wasn't happy to see the Cold War end, of course.  And I'd be atM > least as happy to see the current global stand-off end, but until *we* take F > the steps we need to to accomplish that goal I'm ready to accept theH > consequences of my failure to keep the country for which I'm partiallyL > personally responsible from being a legitimate target, while not going outC > of my way to be a target myself (save perhaps of the more fascistsL > contingents right here at home, because I *do* feel an obligation to stand" > up and be counted against them).  F What you're saying is that all Americans are fair game and that if all= of us were killed by these "freedom fighters" you'd find thato
 justified.   Fascinating.   > . >   A bit like the hyprocrisy of the terroristH > > leaders.  Those cowards will recruit others for suicide attacks, but >  strangly,4 > > they themselves never seem to make such attacks. > J > Very much like the military:  it's been a very, very long time since theM > general staff led the charges - but I guess that thought wouldn't slow down ? > for a second someone with the prejudices you so clearly hold.e > G > It is yet another sad fact of the reality which you seem so intent ontG > ignoring that individuals vary in their ability to contribute to mosteK > endeavors, including violent struggles.  Any sane organization recognizes @ > these differences and attempts to use its resources optimally. > L > Of course, that doesn't necessarily imply cowardice or lack of commitment.J > Osama bin Laden, for example, (remember him?  he's supposedly the reasonM > we're in Iraq, sort of...) had every incentive to live a life of luxury anduN > personal security, but instead exposed himself to decades of severe personalF > danger and hardship (including, we're told, life-threatening medical0 > problems) to support the cause he believes in.  D Oh, please. This is the most ridiculous statement yet. It is a basicD part of human nature that there is the urge to be important. That isD what drives Osama. Please, freedom for whom? He wants to convert theA world into a strict, radical, fundamentalists, oppresive, Islamic-D state with incredibly harsh punishments for anyone violating IslamicF Law. (Remember the Taliban executions of women who were simply accusedA of adultery?) That is the "cause" he believes in and that is whatiE makes him evil. He is abusing Islam. Hitler believed in a cause, too.4@ And he was still evil (an understatement if there ever was one).  E Gee, how noble of Osama for believing in killing all the infidels and 0 creating a Taliban-like world gov't. What a guy.  > Oh, horrors!: there are Americans in Saudi Arabia! Poor Osama!   [...]n  E Regarding the stuff I just snipped (oops!) about punching Bill in theoC face, why is it okay for the terrorists to be terrorists to addresskD their alleged being punched in the face but it's not okay for anyone$ else to punch back? Hardly centrist!  D You justify anything the terrorists do and you blast anything the USE does. If they "defend" themselves, you cheer. If we defend ourselves,7E you sneer. While invading Iraq may well have been a mistake, you have < to answer the question as to what would have happened if theB "terrorists" decided to take your advice and try to understand whyA they got punched in the face. What would have happened? (WhatevereF would have happened, it would certainly be a vast improvement over theD Saddam regime.) We just might be on the way to democracy in Iraq. WeF did it in Germany, Japan, and Italy. If it werern't for these "freedomB fighters" of yours, we just might have been able to do it in Iraq.1 Assuming that really is W's objective, of course.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:13:45 -0400p( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime , Message-ID: <4175E5F9.8010106@tsoft-inc.com>  F Some c.o.v people might be getting a bit tired of this OT dicscussion.   JF Mezei wrote:r   > David Froble wrote:r > N >>Some have maintained that 'legality comes from the barrel of a gun'.  In theP >>end, sadly it's true.  Where would the first ammendment to the US constitutionQ >>be if the people of the US were not ready to defend it, with guns if necessary?  >> > M > In Canada, they have those not-for-profit ads on TV about famous canadians.iO > One of those ads features discussions at the UN about the introduction of theaA > charter of human rights, which was done by a canadian diplomat.i     I'll take your word for this.     J > One of the aspects which is outlined by this ad, and which was extremelyM > important at the time is that all signataries, (and this includes the USA),s> > agreed that the UN charter of rights was ABOVE any country'sO > constitution/laws. It was a big deal because every country agreed that the UNsM > charter was sovereign over their own territory and could not be overturned.t    7 Remember that you're talking solely about human rights.y  N I'm not sure that I'll blindly accept your assertion such agreements.  The US P has, at least at times, been rather adamant about being able to act in it's own . interest, and not be limited by any UN action.  Q At this time, I'll refer to Bill Gunshannon's definition of Democracy, and defer v being a lone sheep.     J > This was to prevent any country from thinking it was legal to torture orD > suspend due legal process by simply passing some domestic law/act.     I'm on your side.     M > At the time of the founding of the UN and signing of the charter of rights,tN > certain countries were considered to be mature enough to be given a right ofL > veto.  It was never considered that one of those "founding" members  couldM > turn into a rogue government that totally dismisses its obligatiosn towards.O > the UN charter and has suspended due legal process for a lot of people insidevP > its own jurisdiction, tortured people domestically and abroad etc etc etc etc.    P You are a joke.  The founding of the UN was the Allies fighting Germany, Japan, P and Italy.  The winners decided how things would be.  Don't forget that Canada, * through Brittan, was one of those winners.    J > You should recall that the current regime in Washington has often statedP > categorically that they would never allow the UN or anyone else to prevent the) > USA from doing anything it wants to do.M    M Maybe change that to 'needs to do'.  I haven't seen any UN aircraft and such eQ protecting high probability targets, such as NYC and Washington DC.  Do you have i any proof of such?  L Do not attempt to make the happenings on Sept 11, 2001 to be anything but a P blatant sneak attack on innocent US civilians.  At least the Japanese sunk some O ships.  The happenings of that day placed the US at war with anyone they could  O find that was in any way associated with those happenings.  That we're dealing  N with cowards who won't face the US in the open, and get dups to perform their F deeds, does not change that basic fact.  It won't change until the US L surrenders, which won't help since the bastard's goals are the death of all L infidels, that's all non-muslims, or the opposition surrenders, which won't P happen since they hide and have others do their deeds, or the US hunts down and O kills all who take actions to harm the US and it's citizens.  If you have even  L 1/10 of a brain, you'll see that the only available course is the third one.    M > This is absolutely contrary to the UN treaties the USA has agreed to uphold  > and abide by.     N I think that you'll find that the UN charter allows a nation that is attacked N from outside to defend itself, in whatever way required.  Go do some research.    N > So while they may not have broken the USA constitution, they have broken theN > law of the land because they have broken many international alws which applyL > to the USA by the fact that the USA agreed to have them supercede any lawsD > passed domestically in the USA. (same applies to all signataries).    L If you're talking about the folks in Cuba, or taking actions against people L where they do not have the right to face their accuser, or even to know why L they're being acted against, than I do agree with you 100%.  George and the O people he's got around them are dangerous and must go.  To have US Senator Ted RP Kennedy on a watch list and trying to keep him off a commercial airliner should P have at a minimum 300 million US citizens terrified.  George is killing freedom.    O > Therefore, the current regime has broken the law which applies inside the USA P > and thus should be impeached. This is far more serious than getting a blow job? > in the oval office while on the phone with some world leader.     @ Nothing wrong with a good blow job between willing participants.  ( I believe November 2 is impeachment day.    P > You should note that the Parti Qubcois had passed stringent language laws inO > Qubec in the late 1970s, and some of those clauses went as far as the United L > Nations which struck them down and forced Canada to force Qubec to revokeI > those clauses because they went against the UN charter of human rights.    Don't get me started on them.e   Dave   -- r4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486e   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 15:50:21 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)., Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software3 Message-ID: <1xeBugCIzcao@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <41753D9B.9F1E034A@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > F > Is it possible to have a "pass by value" of a string contained in a  > descriptor ? > K > Even if you pass the descriptor by value somehow, it will still contain a P > pointer to the original string and thus will still be by reference...  (unlessN > the compiler then generates a local copy of the argument which was passed to > the routine by reference).  9   Descriptors don't contain strings.  They describe them.r  H   It's possible to pass the descriptor by value, or the string by value,D   but I'd not be in any hurry to do either.  At least the descriptor3   will pass as a single argument on Alpha and IA64.e  H   IIRC the DEC C limit for passing stuctures by value was 64Kb.  I thinkB   you might bump into a bunch of demand zero page faults that way.   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 15:43:37 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e, Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software3 Message-ID: <ZisE0l0oLzOS@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  Q In article <41752F24.87362403@adldata.com>, sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> writes:b  C >> That's not Pascal, that's Compaq Pascal.  An implementation, notIA >> a language.  So, if I decide to write a modifed C Library thatlE >> uses some format other than the dreaded "null terminated character D >> array" and distribute it with a some compiler does that mean that> >> the C language would be changed?  Or just my quirky system? >> 0 >> bill0 >> 0 >> --mM >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves G >> bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.d >> University of Scranton   |wA >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>d > 0 > It would not change the language definition.  7 > It would mean that you have a C support library that .4 > is incompatible with the standard library and the $ > standard use of character strings.  C    Bill's compiler would violate the C language standard.  It wouldtE    hardly be the first to do so.  But if he left the null byte in andrH    read "pointer" to mean "descriptor" he could have has Cake and eat it    it, too.   D    OK, so now what does it take to get Bill to go off and define theF    Cake language and get the whole software industry to use it instead    of C?   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 15:44:20 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y, Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software3 Message-ID: <caAvocazeGBZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  [ In article <toadd.1136$dY5.1052@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:t > E > No, there have never been approved reference models for any of the e > Pascal standards.a  @    How odd.  Must be because the original language was so small.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:20:49 GMTs& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>, Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software1 Message-ID: <Ryfdd.1181$ix6.654@news.cpqcorp.net>e   Tom Linden wrote:e   > K > Well, %DESCR is an extension, which would make a source program employing L > it non-portable.  So, from that point of view it is a language issue, evenK > though it appears to be a preprocessor function.  BTW, I noted that the    > online# > docs for Pascal were only in pdf.a >   @ Pascal is a little two-faced here.  They look like preprocessor F functions due to the leading percent-sign but they are not.  They are < part of the regular grammer.  In addition we do have almost D corresponding attributes named [IMMEDIATE], [REFERENCE], [CLASS_S],  [CLASS_NCA], etc.   M > PL/I does the same, BTW, but goes a step further and makes them attributes.wP > http://www.kednos.com/pli/docs/REFERENCE_MANUAL/6291pro_021.html#index_x_1030  >  >  >  >      -- i John Reaganl/ HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:41:51 -0700a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r, Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software( Message-ID: <opsf4771xpzgicya@hyrrokkin>  @ On 19 Oct 2004 12:20:04 -0500, <briggs@encompasserve.org> wrote:  J > In article <opsf4i3fjezgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  	 > writes:lI >> On 19 Oct 2004 10:01:59 -0500, Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net>-	 >> wrote: J >>> As has been explained to you before, descriptors are an implementation  >>> issue, not a language issue. >>D >> Well, %DESCR is an extension, which would make a source program   >> employingJ >> it non-portable.  So, from that point of view it is a language issue,   >> even 3 >> though it appears to be a preprocessor function.h >sD > If you use a non-portable extension then the behavior of a programE > that uses that extension is an implementation issue, not a languagey > issue.  ? I had a different understanding of the term.  I was thinking ofyE specific implementations which did not impact the language reference,uB e.g. how you allocate storage.  I view this as an extension to the3 language reference.  If wrong, my misunderstanding.    >rD > If you need to use a non-portable extension then the behavior thatD > you are trying to influence must be implementation-specific rather > than language-defined. > E > The language definition is silent on both the question of parameter E > passing mechanism (reference versus descriptor) and on the questionpE > of interpretation of the %DESCR extension.  Accordingly, neither iso4 > a language issue.  Both are implementation issues. >nC > One should distinguish between the semantics of parameter passingr) > and the mechanism of parameter passing.e >gC > Call by value, by reference or by copy-in, copy-back -- those are = > semantics.  You can write a program to tell which semanticseC > are in use.  And the language definition may prescribe particularr> > semantics.  Or it may be left as an implementation decision. >hG > Call by value, by reference or by descriptor -- those are mechanisms. G > You cannot, in general, write a program to tell which mechanism is ingG > use.   Parameter passing mechanism is almost always an implementationa > decision.t >o> > One popular choice used by language definers is to prescribeC > copy-in, copy-back semantics by default but to allow by-referenceg# > semantics for structured objects.p >d	 > On VAX:s >oB > You can implement by-value semantics using value, reference or  
 > descriptor.v > H > You can implement by-reference semantics using reference or descriptor >nE > You can implement copy-in, copy-back semantics using reference or    > descriptor >i >e >t > 	John Briggs       -- yC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/>   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Oct 2004 01:28:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software+ Message-ID: <2tlta5F21jvd3U1@uni-berlin.de>g  3 In article <ZisE0l0oLzOS@eisner.encompasserve.org>,d> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > F >    OK, so now what does it take to get Bill to go off and define theH >    Cake language and get the whole software industry to use it instead
 >    of C?   A Actually, when it comes to playing with compilers, I always had aeA preference for Pascal and I still do every once in a while when I 4 have extra time and need something to relax my mind.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:55:15 -0400 3 From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@REMOVEintelME.com> ' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorse8 Message-ID: <4skan0hgguf1sudsmnmpf80gfct2b4i218@4ax.com>  K On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:19:32 -0400, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>w wrote:   >Steve Lionel wrote:Q >> I could not get from your earlier posts exactly what problem you are trying ton	 >> solve.t >*L >not trying to solve any specific problem. But in the context of dicsussionsK >about the "dangers" of null terminated strings where "descriptors" are thelK >answer to alkl evil microsoft problems, I started to wonder about how mustnN >manually differentiate between allocated and used values in a descriptor, (atL >least in C) and hence my question whether the engineers had ever consideredD >having both values in the structure when they initially devised it.  K Given that C strings have their length determined by their content, I can'ttK see why a redundant value in the descriptor has any use. For strings with aJE seperate length field, DTYPE_VT, the current length, while not in the,N descriptor itself, is easy to locate without scanning the string looking for a NUL.  K One of the many nice things about VMS is that it accomodates many differentsK languages' notions of how things should work, in a largely language-neutraleL way.  Contrast that with UNIX or Windows, where everything is forced to look like C.s   Steve    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 13:13:34 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorsv3 Message-ID: <gvXYnK3Amj7D@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  W In article <41753908.6080304@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  > JF Mezei wrote:o >  >> Tim Sneddon wrote:o >>  M >>>What is wrong with using a DSC$K_CLASS_S string and passing the address ofIM >>>DSC$W_LENGTH for the length argument too? The following is some BLISS coder >>>that explains what I mean:r >>>. >> hN >> Yeah, but still requires that you hold the allocated size separately so youK >> can reset the Ddsc$w_length field after you'd used the field to indicate  >> current string length.a >> oM >> I know how to work with the current design. But just wondered if there wasdP >> some reason they didn't put in the 2 lengts (used, allocated) in the originalF >> description definitions which would have made for cleaner programs. >> ' > O > Just guessing here.  The use of dynamic strings seems to be in BASIC.  (Note  R > that I've not used all the languages that are/were available on VMS.)  Prior to M > the development of dynamic strings for BASIC, it's my impression that most uQ > string usage (with descriptors) was static (fixed length) strings.  Being more ,I > specific, the allocated memory for the actual data was fixed in length.m > S > If there's any reality to my guess, then the development of dynamic strings used  @ > the available descriptors rather than develop new descriptors. > Q > I've heard, somewhere in the past, that when re-setting the value of a dynamic  S > string, that if the new data is larger, then the existing memory is released and mQ > a new block of memory of sufficient size is acquired.  If smaller, the size of  S > the data is set and the rest of the memory ignored.  I'm guessing that if that's cQ > so, that the memory would be in a location that is all released when the image mP > is run down.  Still, a long running program would be 'leaking' memory.  Never < > got into reading the source for the STR$ libraby routines.  I A reasonable implemention would use out-of-band information to keep trackaJ of the current allocated size.  Without ever having looked at the sources,C I'm 95% confident that the pointer that you see in a dynamic string B descriptor points not to the beginning of the allocated block, but a few bytes farther along.  J +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+J | class, type, length |                        | housekeeping fields     |J +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+J | DSC$A_POINTER       |  ------------------->  | Hello, world!           |6 +---------------------+                        | 			 |J                                                | <filler>                |J                                                +-------------------------+  C You might even have another set of housekeeping fields prior to thesB ones shown here.  If you allocate a block of memory from a dynamicD memory manager, chances are pretty good that the memory manager willD reserve the right to keep some housekeeping information in the bytes> immediately preceding the memory it has allocated to the user.  J                                                +-------------------------+J                                                | memory manager overhead |J +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+J | class, type, length |                        | dynamic string overhead |J +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+J | DSC$A_POINTER       |  ------------------->  | Hello, world!           |J +---------------------+                        |                         |J                                                | <filler>                |J                                                +-------------------------+  E So your dynamic string library reaches out and grabs a hunk of memoryeD from the memory manager, the memory manager holds back a quadword orA so to describe the block and hands the rest to the dynamic stringlC library.  The dynamic string library holds back a quadword or so topC describe the string and fills the rest with text.  And all the usert@ sees is a pointer to some memory that has the right string value stored.   E If the string gets too big to fit, the dynamic string library reachesoA out to the memory manager and asks for a bigger hunk.  The memoryp> manager holds back a bit, hands the rest to the dynamic string< library which holds back a bit, fills the text area with theF appropriate new value, updates DSC$A_POINTER in the user's descriptor,D copies the string over as neccessary and releases the old block backH to the memory manager which looks at the prologue that it had originallyB held back, sanity-checks the deallocation request and releases the6 block back to free space in the memory manager's pool.  F Of course, since the dynamic string library and the memory manager areC written by the same vendor, there may be a few useful optimizationsm? made.  There are certainly some tweakable parameters.  How muchrC extra space should you allocate when you need to extend the string?rE How small should you let a string shrink before you release the block B and re-allocate a smaller one?  Should the string library maintain? a lookaside list of pre-allocated blocks?  Or should it let thel@ memory manager do everything?  What allocation scheme should the> memory manager employ?  Should you do garbage collection?  Or " will you do explicit deallocation?  E Fortunately, none of those decisions reaches across the line into thehC user-visible descriptor.  You're able to hide all the relevant datao' structures in storage owned by the RTL.e  = What the user sees is a pretty normal seeming quadword stringe: descriptor.  Your implementation decisions are transparent to him.l   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:41:57 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorsl, Message-ID: <41758A10.2BAAFADD@teksavvy.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:I > If you are, I would suggest that you allocate a block of memory 4 bytes,K > longer than you need, and set the start if the descriptor to 4 bytes into-J > the block of memory.  Store the initial allocation in the first 4 bytes.G > You can fetch it as a negative offset to the start of the descriptor.e  N For questions of maintanibility and allowing other VMS geeks to understand theM code, I'd rather stay with standard descriptors. And since the VS descriptorseE are not supported by all system services/RTL natively, it becomes tootM problematic to decide whether one can or can't pass the VS descrpitor to somerK system service. So best to stick to the basic descriptors and keep an extra 8 variable to store the actual length (or allocated size).  M In terms of how often dynamic strings are used, i can understand in the 1970siF and early 1980s when fortran and cobol were king, there was no use forR dynamically allocated strings. You used fixed strings to write 132 column reports.  M However, in today's environment, it seems to be that there is a whole hell of I a lot more dynamically allocated strings in programming because computersrK handle far more "flexible" data and outpout it in graphical user interfacesw etc etc.  M Looking at the "mistake" of not giving early alphas byte alignment capabilitysI which interfered greatly with more modern programs which handled a lot oflI strings (a capability which was added later on), I'd say that programminga7 needs have changed significantly over the last decades.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:27:47 -0400n# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>)3 Subject: Retain Trust 'warranty' period almost overt, Message-ID: <PZ6dnfeAEKhDCejcRVn-1Q@igs.net>  @ Has the former Compaq, that entertaining enterprise now known asI "carly(tm)'s World", extended the trade-in and license transfer guarantee-L now that the 3-year 'warranty' period is near expiry (December 31, 2004 last< I checked) and there still aren't any GA Itanic/VMS systems?  I Or is just another way to weasel out of a portion of the 'Plan of Record'tF and the 'Retain Trust' program and cut more costs at customer expense?    ( http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=1586  K "Q will trade in AlphaServers against Itanics for the net purchase price to  the tune of 35 per cent.I Q will offer shared licences between mixed architectures and 100 per cent7H trade-ins for OSes and layered products when firms move to Itanica. ThisK miracle for third party software licences is being jointly brokered by botht Compaq and Intel.n  G The offer expires on the 31st of December [2001], and customers have 36 > months from the date of purchase to use the assurance scheme."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:39:51 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>G Subject: Re: Routine to Resubmit print/batch entries from queue listingd+ Message-ID: <4175B3D7.3E0858D7@comcast.net>l   Fred Hoenisch wrote: > K > Sorry, I see my wording wasn't very clear.  I specifically don't want thesL > routine to generate a queue listing file - I want to resubmit jobs from anI > older (historic) queue file (ie. I did the SHOW /QUEUE /FULL /ALL /OUT=r > earlier).u > $ > Thanks for the responses thus far.  B Y'know, in some other thread(?), someone posted a link to a searchH result they found via "asktima" (the "Natural Langauge" search engine onH hp.com). That pointed to a document containing enough DCL to provide for: your needs. If I can find it again, I'll re-post the link.   -- m David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:c" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/x   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:49:05 -0500r2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net># Subject: Re: RZ28B-VA drives wantedI+ Message-ID: <4175B601.7237E7BA@comcast.net>o   James Nykiel wrote:i >  > David, >  > Will this help?n > J > http://h18003.www1.hp.com/support/digital_networks_archive/nics/drivers/   It would - if I had the DE500!  B Write me privately. How to de-mung the reply-to should be obvious.   -- n David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:47:02 +0000 (UTC)a* From: bleau@UMTOF.UMD.EDU (Lawrence Bleau)? Subject: smtp error message solved (was Re: smtp error message)a0 Message-ID: <cl3qvm$e87$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>  E I just discovered the meaning of a mysterious error code; or at leasth@ one possible meaning.  The problem was that an smtp mail messageD didn't get sent out from one system I administer to another system IC administer, and that messages between them worked fine earlier, and  there was no config change.e   The sending system is.@   DIGITAL TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.2 - ECO 12   on a AlphaStation 255/300 running OpenVMS V7.1-2   The receiving system is ;   HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 1e;   on a Digital Personal WorkStation  running OpenVMS V7.3-2   F The UCX SMTP log file on the sending system shows an error message of:  H smtp_sender_close sclose R0 status = -1, errno = 65535, vaxc$errno = 316   where:
 $ exit 316% %SYSTEM-F-IVCHAN, invalid I/O channelg  F On the receiving system, there is no new TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG file.  E Restarting SMTP on both systems had no effect.  Restarting the entiret1 TCPIP package on both systems also had no effect.   E As it turns out, the sending system is just fine, the error is on thehF receiving system, and the error code has nothing to do with the error!  E I have disk quotas enabled on the system disk.  Without realizing it, D the TCPIP$SMTP account had exceeded its disk quota.  This caused theD receiving process to terminate early.  Subsequent activations of the@ smtp receiver were immediately over quota and never got started.  A I'm a little hazy on why the lack of error message, or the entire B sequence of failures.  When I increased the disk quota, however, IA immediately started receiving emails again, so this had to be it.t  " Hope this helps someone out there.   Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edup   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:40:23 -0500e2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>D Subject: Re: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager for VT-compatible terminals+ Message-ID: <4175B3F7.3FF84BC2@comcast.net>i   vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru wrote: > g > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<4174620A.E47B6086@comcast.net>...l" > > vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru wrote: > > >hH > > > I present the new release 2.2-6 of my freeware open source programK > > > VTfm which is a Norton Commander-style file manager for OpenVMS. VTfma1 > > > works on VAX, Alpha and IA64 under OpenVMS.  > > >i$ > > > You can download VTFM.ZIP fromL > > > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~vershinin/vtfm.zip, unzip archive and! > > > read README.TXT in [.VTFM].o > >aG > > I pulled the source for this down and uploaded it to HP's testdriveeK > > cluster and compiled/linked it on both Alpha and Itanic. The process ond > > Itanic was MARKEDLY slower!o > >  > > -- > > David J Dachtera > > dba DJE Systems  > > http://www.djesys.com/ > >s- > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: & > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > >a, > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:# > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/m >  > Hi, David! > @ > What do you mean: the compile/link process or running program?   The compile/link.r   -- b David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsw http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:f" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Oct 2004 15:01:18 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)/ Subject: Yahoo: OpenVMS Jobs = Bangalore, India.= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0410191401.7e6ef505@posting.google.com>r   Click   http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/jobseeker/jobsearch/job_detail.html;_ylt=AmI3B10kdwmwJJG3q50Ci1L6Q6IX?job_id=J2VL8I34J&search_url=%2Fjobseeker%2Fjobsearch%2Fsearch_results.html%3Fkeywords_all%3Dopenvms%26Search%3DFind%2Ba%2BJob&keywords_any=&keywords_all=openvms&keywords_phrase=   Regards    FC   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:37:10 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e3 Subject: Re: Yahoo: OpenVMS Jobs = Bangalore, Indian( Message-ID: <opsf47z8xazgicya@hyrrokkin>  I On 19 Oct 2004 15:01:18 -0700, Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>  n wrote:   > Clicks >i> http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/jobseeker/jobsearch/job_detail.html;_ylt=AmI3B10kdwmwJJG3q50Ci1L6Q6IX?job_id=J2VL8I34J&search_url=%2Fjobseeker%2Fjobsearch%2Fsearch_results.html%3Fkeywords_all%3Dopenvms%26Search%3DFind%2Ba%2BJob&keywords_any=&keywords_all=openvms&keywords_phrase= >f	 > Regardsu >  > FC  G You misread the job spec, this is for HP-UX/Linux, look at the tool seta skills required.       --  C Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.582 ************************