1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 20 Oct 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 583       Contents:  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question  Re: BA353 configuration question! Color Laser printers with OpenVMS % Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS  Re: Command Substitution ??  Re: Command Substitution ?? 6 Re: Hello from the OpenVMS Technical Update in Austria* Re: HP announces new educational programme* Re: HP announces new educational programme Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime RE: J F on why USA is a regime Re: JAR files must be stream-lf , Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception Re: OT: Short Article about Sun  Re: OT: Short Article about Sun  Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors Question about Mini-Merge  Re: Question about Mini-Merge . Reserved Memory Registry - What's it good for?% SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined ) Re: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined ) Re: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined " Re: SYSUAF => export passwords ???" Re: SYSUAF => export passwords ???" Re: VMS and Perl /Python scripting; Re: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager for VT-compatible terminals ; Re: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager for VT-compatible terminals ( Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regime, Re: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regime, Re: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regime  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:18:09 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question , Message-ID: <41760321.2080402@tsoft-inc.com>   James Nykiel wrote:    > Greetings: >  > K > I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two AlphaStation I > nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated into E > this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the 
 > cluster? > L > Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation #19 > to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2?   P SCSI as a cluster interconnect require differential SCSI drives, and connection.  M Any drives that will work in the BA-353 box are unlikely to be differential.  G Note, there were 8-bit differential drives, I believe.  Also, there is  < differential, and low voltage differential.  Much different.  ? Definitely not an expert in such, I'm not running any clusters.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:38:25 +0100 - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> ) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question 8 Message-ID: <sb8cn0d9cpoes8cfvesaomohgk648irlsd@4ax.com>  J On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:45:01 -0700, James Nykiel <jnykiel@access4less.net> wrote:  J >I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two AlphaStationH >nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated intoD >this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the	 >cluster?  > K >Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation #1 8 >to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2?  J A VMS cluster will by default make all its disk resources available to allK nodes, using the existing network interconnect (Ethernet in your case being J the most common in small-medium machine environments).  You do not need toG physically connect the hosts and the disks together, although it can be B achieved using suitable hardware and obviously gives you increasedG resilience.  However, 99.99% of hobbyists with two machines will simply J attach some disks to one machine and some to the other and share them overH the NI.  Be aware that a two-machine cluster with one vote each will notJ survive the loss of either machine.  (If you did manage to get hold of theJ SCSI controllers and disks to support SCSI-clustering, then you would giveL one disk a vote and get around this problem.  So-called quorum disks must beI directly attached to each machine that is nominated as a quorum watcher.)    --  L When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.    Mail john rather than nospam...    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:05:33 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question + Message-ID: <41769ADD.7604BA64@comcast.net>    Tom Linden wrote:  > 6 > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:48:00 -0500, David J Dachtera$ > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >  > > James Nykiel wrote:  > >> > >> Greetings:  > >>A > >> I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two  > >> AlphaStation L > >> nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated intoH > >> this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the
 > >> cluster?  > >>L > >> Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation > >> #1 < > >> to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2? > > I > > Well, I S'POSE you could try it, but you'd have to watch out for SCSI  > > id.'s and such.  > > H > > SCSI cluster using a BA353... Now that's a twist I'd not considered! > J > Doesn't it require differential scsi controllers the way he is proposing > to configure it?  E Only if you're expecting SCS traffic to traverse the SCSI bus. In the D days before xVD, SCSI clusters were essentially "LAVc" clusters thatE used SCSI as the storage (only) interconnect, much the same way as FC  clusters do today.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:06:13 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question + Message-ID: <41769B05.E8C62119@comcast.net>    David Froble wrote:  >  > James Nykiel wrote:  >  > > Greetings: > >  > > M > > I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two AlphaStation K > > nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated into G > > this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the  > > cluster? > > N > > Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation #1; > > to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2?  > R > SCSI as a cluster interconnect require differential SCSI drives, and connection. > N > Any drives that will work in the BA-353 box are unlikely to be differential.H > Note, there were 8-bit differential drives, I believe.  Also, there is> > differential, and low voltage differential.  Much different. > A > Definitely not an expert in such, I'm not running any clusters.   E Only if you're expecting SCS traffic to traverse the SCSI bus. In the D days before xVD, SCSI clusters were essentially "LAVc" clusters thatE used SCSI as the storage (only) interconnect, much the same way as FC  clusters do today.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:17:14 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>) Subject: Re: BA353 configuration question + Message-ID: <41769D9A.630DA043@comcast.net>    John Laird wrote:  > L > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:45:01 -0700, James Nykiel <jnykiel@access4less.net> > wrote: > L > >I would eventually like to build a cluster consisting of two AlphaStationJ > >nodes with Ethernet Interconnects, how can the BA353 be integrated intoF > >this configuration so that its resources (drives) are available the > >cluster?  > > M > >Is the SCSI cabling as simple as running a SCSI cable from AlphaStation #1 : > >to the BA353 and from the the BA353 to AlphaStation #2? > L > A VMS cluster will by default make all its disk resources available to allM > nodes, using the existing network interconnect (Ethernet in your case being 9 > the most common in small-medium machine environments).     Ooohhh... Careful there!  = MSCP serving is NOT turned on by default. Check the values of A MSCP_SERVE_ALL and TMSCP_SERVE_ALL to see what your VMS system is  currently offering.   H Individual HSJs do serve up their devices by MSCP to any VMS system thatB wants to access them - that's an HSJ's job. The VMS system itself,G however, does this only when this is enabled through the aforementioned  parameters.    > You do not need toI > physically connect the hosts and the disks together, although it can be D > achieved using suitable hardware and obviously gives you increased   ...throughput and ...   I > resilience.  However, 99.99% of hobbyists with two machines will simply L > attach some disks to one machine and some to the other and share them over
 > the NI.   H It is necessary to set the appropriate values for MSCP_SERVE_ALL to make6 that happen, however - it is not the default behavior.  A > Be aware that a two-machine cluster with one vote each will not L > survive the loss of either machine.  (If you did manage to get hold of theL > SCSI controllers and disks to support SCSI-clustering, then you would giveN > one disk a vote and get around this problem.  So-called quorum disks must beK > directly attached to each machine that is nominated as a quorum watcher.)   F Be advised also that early SCSI clusters did not use the SCSI bus as aF transport for SCS traffic. This came later, but was once again lost inF the transition to fibre-channel. SCS over FC is coming in a future VMSE release (V8.3?). Early SCSI clusters were merely an extension of LAVc G with a common storage (only) interconnect (SCS traffic did not traverse  the SCSI bus).   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:33:52 +0930 $ From: Jeremy Begg <notme@vsm.com.au>* Subject: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <BD9C35E0.6B70%notme@vsm.com.au>   Hi,   I I have an HP LaserJet 5M which has given extremely good service over many F years, but is showing signs of old age.  The main problem is pages get, jammed when a large job is printing 2-sided.  K So I'm looking around for a replacement laser printer and would like to get I a color printer which does double sided printing.  It has to work with my I OpenVMS systems (using both Multinet stream/telnet symbiont and DCPS$SMB) C and with MacOS X.  A search has uncovered four possible candidates:    1.  HP Color LaserJet 4650dn 2.  HP Color LaserJet 3700dn 3.  Lexmark C752dn 4.  Lexmark C510dn  G The 4600dn is the most expensive but I know it works well with OpenVMS.   D The 3700dn is at the top end of my price range but does it work withK OpenVMS?  (The DECprint Supervisor SPD lists it, but on HP's "printers" web F site, OpenVMS isn't listed as one of the supported operating systems.)  L The Lexmark C752Ldn is similar in price & specs to the 3700dn and appears to$ be supported by DECprint Supervisor.  K The Lexmark C510dn is about $700 cheaper than the C752Ldn or 3700dn, but is / not mentioned in the DECprinter Supervisor SPD.   G The Lexmark site says both printers should work with any TCP/IP-capable  host.   I Does anyone have any experience of the Lexmark printers or reasons not to " use them (particularly the 510dn)?   Thanks,            Jeremy Begg   =   +---------------------------------------------------------+ =   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              | =   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  | =   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        | =   +---------------------------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:40:43 +0200 ( From: "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de>. Subject: Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS3 Message-ID: <000601c4b680$7c9587a0$994614ac@wat153>    Hello,  H AFAIK the HP ColorLaserJet 4650DN is the best one. Testresults , which IF did read, did show, that this printer is the best one you can buy. TheE HP ColorLaserJet 3700 looks like the 4650 but do have a less quality.    Best regards R. Wingert    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 03:41:12 -0700  From: passhan@yahoo.com (Shanks)$ Subject: Re: Command Substitution ??= Message-ID: <24c2f677.0410200241.5a1ddf0a@posting.google.com>   F Thanks Briggs and to all those who responded. The 2nd method suggested0 by Briggs pretty much solves my purpose for now.   Hail VMS :)    Regards, Shankar   Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<1V5LAEhHjRLW@eisner.encompasserve.org>... ^ > In article <r1jsm0l8od34k7n91q36clq8lpiiopm127@4ax.com>, Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:D > > On 14 Oct 2004 02:28:13 -0700, passhan@yahoo.com (Shanks) wrote: > >  > >>Hi, : > >>    Do we have a way for command substitution in VMS ? > >>E > >>My query is : Does VMS have an equivalent for this UNIX command ?  > >> > >># test=`date`  > >>N > > Yes, symbol assignment. Here are some examples from $ HELP  SYMBOL EXAMPLE > P > No.  He's not after command aliases.  He's after something entirely different. > B > Under Unix shells, the reverse apostrophe has a special meaning. > F > It means:  "Execute this command and replace this quoted string with+ > the output resulting from that execution"  >  > So the command >  >     # test=`date`  > E > Results in the execution of the date command, producing the output:  > " >     Thu Oct 14 08:01:18 EDT 2004 >  > The command then becomes:  > ) >     # test=Thu Oct 14 08:01:18 EDT 2004  > D > Which populates an environment variable named test with the output > of the date command. >  > e.g. >  >     # test=`date`  >     # echo $test" >     Thu Oct 14 08:02:09 EDT 2004 >     #  > E > For most VMS commands, trapping output and putting it into a symbol D > requires the programmer to jump through some hoops, either using aC > temporary file or playing games with PIPEs and job logical names.  > @ > However, for the case of trapping the time of day one can make. > use of a built in "lexical function", F$TIME >  >     $ test=f$time()  >     $ show sym test ( >       TEST = "14-OCT-2004 08:06:39.46" > B > For an arbitrary command, here are a couple of techniqueues that > can be used: > < >     $! Use a temporary file to capture the output of "foo"" >     $ define sys$output temp.txt >     $ foo  >     $ deassign sys$output  >     $ open temp temp.txt >     $ read temp test >     $ close temp >     $ delete temp.txt; > ` >     $! Use a pipeline to capture the output and then copy the result into main process contextZ >     $ pipe foo | ( read sys$pipe line ; define /job temp &line ) ; test=f$trnlnm("temp") > Q > It is unfortunate that the PIPE command does not incorporate support for grave   > accent processing. >  > 	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 07:04:58 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org$ Subject: Re: Command Substitution ??3 Message-ID: <TbyZxd$MOtml@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <24c2f677.0410200241.5a1ddf0a@posting.google.com>, passhan@yahoo.com (Shanks) writes:H > Thanks Briggs and to all those who responded. The 2nd method suggested2 > by Briggs pretty much solves my purpose for now.  F If performance becomes an issue, you can achieve significant speed-ups+ by doing $ PIPE /NOSYMBOLS /NOLOGICAL_NAMES   C This avoids the overhead of copying DCL symbols and process logical 3 names from parent context into sub-process context.   a >>     $! Use a pipeline to capture the output and then copy the result into main process context [ >>     $ pipe foo | ( read sys$pipe line ; define /job temp &line ) ; test=f$trnlnm("temp")   D That particular syntax involves two sub-processes.  One to run "foo"B and one to read from the pipeline and define the job logical name.  C If "foo" doesn't depend on DCL symbols or process logicals then you @ can safely use /NOSYMBOLS and /NOLOGICAL_NAMES and save yourself some processor time.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:48:38 +0200 & From: "Walter Kuhn" <w.kuhn@ksg.co.at>? Subject: Re: Hello from the OpenVMS Technical Update in Austria G Message-ID: <41764253$0$30240$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   
 Hello Sue,  A thank you all for the VERY interesting event, I've learned a lot.    regards (from Vienna)  Walter Kuhn   D "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag7 news:857e9e41.0410180444.18a16a2c@posting.google.com...  > Dear Newsgroup,  > G > Hello, from Vienna Austria.  This is our fourth stop on the Technical G > update tour.  We have had an excellent time.  We started in Stockholm G > Sweden.  We were in the HP office in Kista.  The event sold out there B > and a few people ended up sitting on the floor, we then moved toH > Holland, Utrect (sp?)we had one spare seat on the first day.  Then offH > to London and now Austria.  Its funny no matter where I go I am alwaysF > touched at how kind the VMS people are.  The audience is always veryC > open to what we have to say about where are going and what we are < > doing now.  Hopefully people will post their own thoughts. > C > We are off to the last technical update day in Germany on Friday.  >  > Warm Regards,  > Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:34:03 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP announces new educational programme , Message-ID: <h_CdnXSahv-hxuvcRVn-hg@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  > from:  >>L http://news.com.com/HP+gives+schools+a+break/2100-1012_3-5417621.html?tag=ne fd.hed > < > Hewlett-Packard launched a discount program on Tuesday for" > institutions of higher learning. > E > Under the Campus Investment Program, universities and colleges that F > use HP workstations and servers can get the company's Unix operating$ > system, HP-UX 11i, free of charge. > E > The company, based in Palo Alto, Calif., is also offering discounts A > of up to 45 percent on various software products, including its ' > clustering software, HP Serviceguard.  > E > Academic institutions can receive free updates of software packages B > purchased once and also perpetual licenses, which do not requireG > yearly renewal. Systems registered under the program will be eligible , > for special discounts on support services. > F > Technology companies have been targeting the education market, whichE > is slated by research firm IDC to grow to $9.5 billion by 2006, for  > some time. > C > The popularity enjoyed by Linux among researchers and students is E > being exploited by companies such as Red Hat and SuSE Linux to sell C > their desktop and server software products at a discounted price.  > ( > -------------------------------------- > ) > Another missed opportunity to push VMS.     G Never mind about 'pushing' VMS, HP doesn't even offer it as a choice to  educational institutions.   H Notice it also says 'workstations', which as we all know aren't formally" supported under the Itanic lineup.  G Seems to me that carly(tm) ought to get an in-box full of comments this  morning.    8 Here's the official text of the HP program announcement:9 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2004/041019a.html   = HP Discounts UNIX Operating Environments for Higher Education   H Select colleges and universities may be eligible for substantial savings$ through HP Campus Investment Program    PALO ALTO, Calif., Oct. 19, 2004L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----  L Higher education institutions using HP servers and workstations for teachingJ or research can now receive the HP-UX 11i operating system at no charge(1)8 through the HP Campus Investment Program Academic Offer.  F The program also provides substantial discounts on HP-UX 11i operatingB environments, software, licenses and support services for faculty,C researchers and students to meet the general enterprise information - technology needs of educational institutions.   H "As higher education institutions face severe budget cuts and increasingI shortages in funding, HP is proud to offer these significant discounts on L some of our most powerful information systems," said Michael Humke, directorE of Higher Education, Public Sector, HP. "HP understands the needs and F challenges of colleges and universities to adapt to rapid changes withI advanced information technology. This program is designed to help support ? the efforts of campuses to transform into 21st century learning  environments."  > Colleges and universities using HP-UX 11i environments to meetK communications and IT infrastructure needs - including e-mail, registration K and financial processing - are eligible for up to 45 percent savings on all I HP-UX 11i operating environments, selected layered products and HP-UX 11i I clustering software, called HP Serviceguard. Educational institutions can I use the HP Campus Investment Program discount to help build innovative IT D systems to improve academic performance while also practicing fiscal responsibility.   E Several higher education institutions have benefited from this offer, L including the University of Iowa, which has free HP-UX 11i operating systems+ for use in everyday academics and research.   J "The HP Campus Investment Program Academic Offer gives our institution theB ability to adapt and capitalize on future technologies quickly andL cost-effectively," said Doug Eltoft, director of operations computer systemsF and support, College of Engineering, University of Iowa. "This programK enables our students, faculty and administrators to have access to the most F advanced technology available to help support the University of Iowa's academic mission."  G Educators also can take advantage of a wide range of customized support K offerings for HP-UX 11i. The program supports both HP Integrity and HP 9000 # servers as well as HP workstations.   A All Campus Investment Program software packages allow educational J institutions one-time purchases of software and perpetual licenses that do? not require yearly renewal, thereby reducing maintenance costs. H Additionally, education customers who have a system registered under theJ program may place their HP-UX system under an existing support contract or@ can take advantage of special discounts on HP Care Pack support.  L More information about the free and discounted operating environment and the; HP Campus Investment Program Academic Offer is available at - http://government.hp.com/hed/prog_hiedux.asp.    About HP  B HP is a technology solutions provider to consumers, businesses andF institutions globally. The company's offerings span IT infrastructure,F personal computing and access devices, global services and imaging andF printing. For the four fiscal quarters ended July 31, 2004, HP revenueG totaled $78.4 billion. More information about HP (NYSE, Nasdaq: HPQ) is  available at http://www.hp.com.     L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----  H (1) HP reserves the right to remove software products from the HP CampusK Investment Program Academic Offer at any time due to royalty obligations or J other reasons, and provides no assurance that any product will continue to remain in the program.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:43:13 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 3 Subject: Re: HP announces new educational programme , Message-ID: <4176878F.FCA1A986@teksavvy.com>   John Smith wrote: J > Notice it also says 'workstations', which as we all know aren't formally$ > supported under the Itanic lineup.  K Remember that PaRisc sales still generate more revenu than IA64 things. And M there are  PaRisc and Alpha workstations listed on the HP web site. And while I the HP web site shows no IA64 workstation configs, the VMS engineers have N reminded us that it is still possible to get a small IA64 server configured as a workstation.  E And you know, even if HP were to relent and include VMS with this EDU N programme, now that the press release is out, there wouldn't be much of a bangJ and VMS would most likely be secretyely added to the programme without any! publiclity or PR releases at all.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:59:12 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> ' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime 8 Message-ID: <nk6cn052pfc7ivc12psr9o2m31qkor8gd5@4ax.com>  I On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:39:49 -0400, "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu> wrote:   G >"You ask a child if he's seen a brown star around, And he'll laugh and E >jump up and down and say, I found a brown star right on the ground."  >--Don Van Vliet  0 I vote for more Captain Beefheart in comp.os.vms   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Oct 2004 09:18:15 GMT+ From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@openvms-rocks.com> ' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime 7 Message-ID: <Xns9588730E7BF88dcovmsrox@212.100.160.123>   & %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Nigel Barker wrote in / news:nk6cn052pfc7ivc12psr9o2m31qkor8gd5@4ax.com   K > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:39:49 -0400, "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu> wrote:  > H >>"You ask a child if he's seen a brown star around, And he'll laugh andF >>jump up and down and say, I found a brown star right on the ground." >>--Don Van Vliet  > 2 > I vote for more Captain Beefheart in comp.os.vms  " Unlike politics it's Safe As Milk.     Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:48:01 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime = Message-ID: <oaWdncLiMbRrruvcRVn-qw@metrocastcablevision.com>   5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:4175E5F9.8010106@tsoft-inc.com...H > Some c.o.v people might be getting a bit tired of this OT dicscussion. >  > JF Mezei wrote:    ...   L > > One of the aspects which is outlined by this ad, and which was extremelyI > > important at the time is that all signataries, (and this includes the  USA), @ > > agreed that the UN charter of rights was ABOVE any country'sJ > > constitution/laws. It was a big deal because every country agreed that the UNC > > charter was sovereign over their own territory and could not be  overturned.  >  > 9 > Remember that you're talking solely about human rights.  > L > I'm not sure that I'll blindly accept your assertion such agreements.  The USH > has, at least at times, been rather adamant about being able to act in it's own0 > interest, and not be limited by any UN action.  G That's called freedom of speech.  And it's quite a different issue than  freedom of action.  F The U.S. can posture all it wants to without breaking the law.  But itH cannot *act* on those statements (if they contravene the treaties it hasI ratified) without both breaking the international law that those treaties F embody *and* breaking *U.S.* law (which the Constitution defines those! ratified treaties to be part of).   F The only way to defy the agreements we have entered into with the U.N.D without breaking both international law and our own laws is to firstE formally notify the U.N. that they are being discarded (in which case K *subsequent* actions that violate them will violate only international law, J which you seem to think we should feel free to do - and even I would agreeL that this at least should be considered in some cases where we feel that lawJ is wrong, but of course that's not the case at all where it's law which we  have freely ratified ourselves).   ...   L > > You should recall that the current regime in Washington has often statedF > > categorically that they would never allow the UN or anyone else to prevent the + > > USA from doing anything it wants to do.  >  > I > Maybe change that to 'needs to do'.  I haven't seen any UN aircraft and  suchI > protecting high probability targets, such as NYC and Washington DC.  Do  you have > any proof of such?  G My, but Bush must appreciate your support for his deliberate efforts to L mislead the American public in this area (and the rest of the world as well,; of course, but the rest of the world is far less gullible).   I I suspect that JF is referring to our presence in Iraq.  And, as even the E Bush administration has been forced to admit multiple times (save for H Cheney, who seems to be clinging to the fiction like a drowning man to aH life preserver), there was no connection whatsoever between Iraq and any attack on the U.S.   > K > Do not attempt to make the happenings on Sept 11, 2001 to be anything but  a L > blatant sneak attack on innocent US civilians.  At least the Japanese sunk someJ > ships.  The happenings of that day placed the US at war with anyone they could H > find that was in any way associated with those happenings.  That we're dealing I > with cowards who won't face the US in the open, and get dups to perform  their G > deeds, does not change that basic fact.  It won't change until the US I > surrenders, which won't help since the bastard's goals are the death of  all G > infidels, that's all non-muslims, or the opposition surrenders, which  won't H > happen since they hide and have others do their deeds, or the US hunts down andK > kills all who take actions to harm the US and it's citizens.  If you have  evenI > 1/10 of a brain, you'll see that the only available course is the third  one.  I Hmmm.  1/10th of a brain appears to be considerably more than you've been J devoting to understanding this area.  The people we're dealing with are soG cowardly that they willingly die flying airplanes into buildings and by L personally detonating explosives wrapped around their bodies, and they do soF not because they give a hoot in hell about us, but because of what our, country does to them in their own backyards.  I We don't have to surrender:  we just have to cut the crap that we've been G dishing out since not long after the end of WWII.  You're old enough to L remember when The Ugly American was first published, and we've become a hell of a lot uglier since.   >  > H > > This is absolutely contrary to the UN treaties the USA has agreed to uphold > > and abide by.  >  > F > I think that you'll find that the UN charter allows a nation that is attackedF > from outside to defend itself, in whatever way required.  Go do some	 research.   J Strange advice from one who is so persistently ignorant himself.  The U.N.J charter is quite clear in the area of what actions legitimately constituteH self-defense, and invading uninvolved countries is definitely not one of them.    ...   * > I believe November 2 is impeachment day.  I Only if the lame excuse for a candidate the Democrats have scraped out of A the bottom of their barrel manages to squeak by - a pretty ironic F last-minute clutch effort when one considers the imbecile he's runningL against, but somehow the voters seem to have realized that neither choice isK all that inspiring a one, and this time I'll sympathize with those who just J stay home (though I'd prefer that they turn out in force for a third-partyF candidate:  while I've never forgiven Ralph for trashing the Corvair aL couple of years *after* the problems he felt it had had been fixed, comparedJ with Bush and Kerry he looks like a Washington, Lincoln, or FDR, and whileF I'm kind of disappointed in Cobb for deferring to the Democrats in theL so-called 'unsafe' states I wouldn't mind a strong turnout for him, either).  K But more to the point, simply quietly shuffling Bush out of office when hiseD term has expired in no way adequately addresses his malfeasance.  HeF *should* be impeached, and then tried for war crimes (plus some ratherI serious Constitutional violations here at home), not simply retired (witheK generous pension and perpetual Secret Service protection of his sorry ass).i  K I don't think I'll bother responding to Alan:  he's got the added burden ofsI religious bias to contend with, and is probably beyond hope.  You, on the L other hand, might not be:  as an exercise, you might go through his post andL see how many absurdities you can find (try hard:  adopting a viewpoint otherL than your own is the first step toward understanding it, which can only helpG if it's something you're inclined to try to discuss, at least if actuale discussion is your goal).a   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 07:49:15 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimei3 Message-ID: <lzfSqPz2Zkwt@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  j In article <oaWdncLiMbRrruvcRVn-qw@metrocastcablevision.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > H > The U.S. can posture all it wants to without breaking the law.  But itJ > cannot *act* on those statements (if they contravene the treaties it hasK > ratified) without both breaking the international law that those treatieseH > embody *and* breaking *U.S.* law (which the Constitution defines those# > ratified treaties to be part of).r  2    Go back to school, kid.  Treaties are not laws.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:01:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimeO, Message-ID: <41768BC2.7D240F53@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:4 >    Go back to school, kid.  Treaties are not laws.  V Sorry to continue this OT thread, but this one cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.  M Treaties are ratified by each signatory country and become law within each ofD those countries.  K This is why, for instance, the USA was able to sign on to the Kyoto accord,nM and then quickly abort the process after a change of government since the USAh  had not yet ratified the treaty.  L I suggest that you go back to school. http://untreaty.un.org is a good place	 to start.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:12:24 -0400l$ From: "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu>' Subject: RE: J F on why USA is a regime2H Message-ID: <957B7AB3AFF9EB4182E46BD96F48B77B01A87FE9@helium.towson.edu>  < PLEASE!  Give it UP!!!!!!!!!!!!  BTW--Treaties ARE NOT laws. Guy Noce Business Services Engineer Office of Technology Servicesr Towson Universityl Phone:  410 704-3965 FAX:     410 704-2661  Email:   gnoce@towson.edun =20 D "University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."--Henry A. Kissinger    -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=206* Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 12:01 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime-     Bob Koehler wrote:4 >    Go back to school, kid.  Treaties are not laws.  H Sorry to continue this OT thread, but this one cannot be allowed to pass
 unchallenged.g  E Treaties are ratified by each signatory country and become law within  each of- those countries.  C This is why, for instance, the USA was able to sign on to the Kyoto  accord, E and then quickly abort the process after a change of government since  the USAA  had not yet ratified the treaty.  F I suggest that you go back to school. http://untreaty.un.org is a good placeh	 to start.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:30:44 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>M( Subject: Re: JAR files must be stream-lf, Message-ID: <417692B0.ED0121D8@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:C >    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool willu? >    not do that.  So first transfer it in binary, and then uset > % >       $set file/attribute=rfm=stmlft    M What sort of IO does the java "zip" use where it would make such a differenceiM ? If the contents are binary, wouldn't both a fixed 512 byte records (similar ? to a .exe) give the application the same data as a stmlf file ?h  Q I can understand the difference in reading text records. But not for binary data.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:58:43 +0200e! From: Soterro <soterroatyahoocom>r5 Subject: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exceptiond; Message-ID: <41766e8c$0$27334$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>c   Hello,  D I'm trying to get a JAR file working on a VMS and a Windows machine  (Unix shall come later)eI So I go and create the JAR file on the OpenVMS machine (JRE 1.4.1-2, VMS  G 7.3-2), everything works fine. I go and create the JAR file on Windows  I (W2000, Eclipse 3.0.1 does that, JRE 1.4.2-03), then when I copy it over n! to the VMS and I run the command:4   $ java -jar mything.jart   I get:   JavaVM args:G      version 0x00010002, ignoreUnrecognized is JNI_FALSE, nOptions is 4p'      option[ 0] = '-Djava.class.path=.'i1      option[ 1] = '-Djava.class.path=mything.jar'u2      option[ 2] = '-Dsun.java.command=mything.jar'  1 micro seconds to InitializeJVM Main-Class is '' Apps' argc is 0 H Exception in thread "main" java.util.zip.ZipException: error in opening  zip file5          at java.util.zip.ZipFile.open(Native Method)h6          at java.util.zip.ZipFile.<init>(ZipFile.java)6          at java.util.jar.JarFile.<init>(JarFile.java)6          at java.util.jar.JarFile.<init>(JarFile.java)  G The file is not corrupted, JAR is otherwise happy with it, it can list  I and extract the classes and I can create then a fully working jar out of eE the unpacked classes. It's just I can't run on VMS the version I get sH from the Win machine. The Main-Class shows nothing, whatever that means B (although Manifest is there). The Win jar works fine on other Win E machines. I don't know anymore where to look, although it looks like c- being something very basic (just an unzip...)o   So I'm lost... Help?   Sa   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:25:14 GMT + From: "Daniel Gustafsson" <daniel@mimer.se>p9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exceptionw1 Message-ID: <ezudd.6620$d5.55555@newsb.telia.net>-  . "Soterro" <soterroatyahoocom> wrote in message5 news:41766e8c$0$27334$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net...c > Hello, >cE > I'm trying to get a JAR file working on a VMS and a Windows machine  > (Unix shall come later) J > So I go and create the JAR file on the OpenVMS machine (JRE 1.4.1-2, VMSH > 7.3-2), everything works fine. I go and create the JAR file on WindowsJ > (W2000, Eclipse 3.0.1 does that, JRE 1.4.2-03), then when I copy it over# > to the VMS and I run the command:s >r > $ java -jar mything.jare >  > I get: >t > JavaVM args:I >      version 0x00010002, ignoreUnrecognized is JNI_FALSE, nOptions is 4d) >      option[ 0] = '-Djava.class.path=.' 3 >      option[ 1] = '-Djava.class.path=mything.jar'a4 >      option[ 2] = '-Dsun.java.command=mything.jar'" > 1 micro seconds to InitializeJVM > Main-Class is '' > Apps' argc is 0 I > Exception in thread "main" java.util.zip.ZipException: error in opening 
 > zip file7 >          at java.util.zip.ZipFile.open(Native Method)a8 >          at java.util.zip.ZipFile.<init>(ZipFile.java)8 >          at java.util.jar.JarFile.<init>(JarFile.java)8 >          at java.util.jar.JarFile.<init>(JarFile.java) >"H > The file is not corrupted, JAR is otherwise happy with it, it can listJ > and extract the classes and I can create then a fully working jar out ofF > the unpacked classes. It's just I can't run on VMS the version I getI > from the Win machine. The Main-Class shows nothing, whatever that meansgC > (although Manifest is there). The Win jar works fine on other Win-F > machines. I don't know anymore where to look, although it looks like/ > being something very basic (just an unzip...)u >i > So I'm lost... Help?   What does DIR/FULL x.JAR say ?   The file must be Stream_LF.n  , Run this after you transfer the file to VMS.' SET FILE x.JAR /ATTR=(RFM:STMLF,RAT:CR)    -- Daniel Gustafssont http://developer.mimer.seg   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:26:17 +020053 From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@nospam.hp.com>t9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception * Message-ID: <417676f5@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  , Stream_LF or case sensitivity problem maybe?   Best, Gorazd   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 10:58:39 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception 3 Message-ID: <UyodayZVEzyw@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  _ In article <41766e8c$0$27334$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>, Soterro <soterroatyahoocom> writes:   * > I go and create the JAR file on Windows K > (W2000, Eclipse 3.0.1 does that, JRE 1.4.2-03), then when I copy it over h# > to the VMS and I run the command:   A    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool willl=    not do that.  So first transfer it in binary, and then useo  #       $set file/attribute=rfm=stmlfn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:26:03 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception + Message-ID: <41769FAA.4D3D9B9F@comcast.net>h   Daniel Gustafsson wrote: > 0 > "Soterro" <soterroatyahoocom> wrote in message7 > news:41766e8c$0$27334$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net...s
 > > Hello, > >eG > > I'm trying to get a JAR file working on a VMS and a Windows machined > > (Unix shall come later)eL > > So I go and create the JAR file on the OpenVMS machine (JRE 1.4.1-2, VMSJ > > 7.3-2), everything works fine. I go and create the JAR file on WindowsL > > (W2000, Eclipse 3.0.1 does that, JRE 1.4.2-03), then when I copy it over% > > to the VMS and I run the command:  > >m > > $ java -jar mything.jart > > 
 > > I get: > >h > > JavaVM args:K > >      version 0x00010002, ignoreUnrecognized is JNI_FALSE, nOptions is 4t+ > >      option[ 0] = '-Djava.class.path=.'T5 > >      option[ 1] = '-Djava.class.path=mything.jar'i6 > >      option[ 2] = '-Dsun.java.command=mything.jar'$ > > 1 micro seconds to InitializeJVM > > Main-Class is '' > > Apps' argc is 0aK > > Exception in thread "main" java.util.zip.ZipException: error in openingb > > zip file9 > >          at java.util.zip.ZipFile.open(Native Method) : > >          at java.util.zip.ZipFile.<init>(ZipFile.java): > >          at java.util.jar.JarFile.<init>(JarFile.java): > >          at java.util.jar.JarFile.<init>(JarFile.java) > >-J > > The file is not corrupted, JAR is otherwise happy with it, it can listL > > and extract the classes and I can create then a fully working jar out ofH > > the unpacked classes. It's just I can't run on VMS the version I getK > > from the Win machine. The Main-Class shows nothing, whatever that meansTE > > (although Manifest is there). The Win jar works fine on other WineH > > machines. I don't know anymore where to look, although it looks like1 > > being something very basic (just an unzip...)r > >g > > So I'm lost... Help? >   > What does DIR/FULL x.JAR say ? >  > The file must be Stream_LF.B > . > Run this after you transfer the file to VMS.  / Remember to transfer the .JAR file as *BINARY*!n  ) > SET FILE x.JAR /ATTR=(RFM:STMLF,RAT:CR)7    RAT is irrelevant, but harmless.   -- h David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:e" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/M   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:32:11 +010079 From: Andrew Harrison <andrew_remove_.harrison@s_u_n.com> ( Subject: Re: OT: Short Article about Sun0 Message-ID: <cl5stf$k4r$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   David Svensson wrote:iY > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<K82dnYh-wOJC1ujcRVn-rQ@igs.net>...  > 2 >>...run bigger databases with fancier graphics... >  > ;) > H > This is a bit sad, Sun was the last company who did something on theirF > own, and did not bought the PC revolution. Now also they are turning > into being a PC company. > ; Lets assume that what you have posted is a deeply held view 
 on your part.   # In which case the answer is hardly.a   First some history.   > Sun started as a company that assembled systems out of off the@ shelf components, 68000, 68010 etc. Sun's IP was how the systems" were assembled and the OS (SunOS).  > Later we developed SPARC based systems running SunOS and later= Solaris, more of the IP was Sun's we designed the CPU and thes1 support chips rather than just the support chips.   A Now move forward to the present day, we have two systems familiesl@ one based on an off the shelf CPU but using Sun's IP for supportB chipsets OS etc (AMD64) and one based on SPARC which contains more? of Sun's IP as a hw platform but which has the same Solaris IP.-  ? So despite your claims we would actually appear to be somewherea= between Sun's start point and Sun's adoption of SPARC. Hardlys$ a dramatic change in the status quo.  ? And the new AMD64 boxes will be all Sun's design not an off thed> shelf system board mated to a peice of tin as is the case with HP.o  = In the meantime Sun continues to develop Niagara and Rock ther; two most radical CMT processors currently under developmentv! and continues to develop Solaris.d  ; Solaris 10 as you probably know contains a bunch of wholelyw< new technologies currently unavailable in any other OS, ZFS,? dtrace etc (and if you don't know where have you been) so therea@ hardly seems to be a huge letup in the rate of development there? and then of course we have Java, JES and JDS all which with the ; exception of JDS are largely technologies that Sun invented  and continues to develop.     < > In a few years, the whole world could run on Linux x86-64.
 > Not fun.  ; You mean RedHat don't you, and the answer is no until every 7 computing problem can be decomposed to a point where ita: will run on a 2-4 way box then there will always be a need8 for something better than Linux. You can also argue that9 at the low end Solaris x86 particularly with 10 is betterd8 by a rather long margin than anything RedHat can supply,6 its better supported unless you like paying someone to5 relay your support call to an newsgroup, its cheaper,v6 its more secure and it costs less to manage. Oh and it3 runs the same apps on the same commodity platforms.   6 Remember Solaris doesn't have to beat Linux, why would5 we be interested in besting a social movement, it hasp2 instead to beat RedHat a much more straightforward proposition.   Regardss Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:53:05 +0200   From: "Dr. Dweeb" <dr@dweeb.com>( Subject: Re: OT: Short Article about Sun- Message-ID: <cl5u4l$10b4$1@news.cybercity.dk>    David Svensson wrote:h0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message* > news:<K82dnYh-wOJC1ujcRVn-rQ@igs.net>...3 >> ...run bigger databases with fancier graphics...  > ;) >UH > This is a bit sad, Sun was the last company who did something on theirF > own, and did not bought the PC revolution. Now also they are turning > into being a PC company. > < > In a few years, the whole world could run on Linux x86-64.
 > Not fun.  K Carley's mantra is that in a few years the whole world will run Windoze x86   1 I suggest that this prospect is even less fun :-)   	 Dr. Dweeb;   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:24:39 -0400n( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptors-, Message-ID: <417604A7.2060300@tsoft-inc.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  N > Consider usage patterns here.  The only real concern being expressed here isM > where the string length changes frequently (more than once), and the memorysH > for the string buffer itself is a variable length.  It's not the norm.< > Strings are more likely to be static, or initialized once.     Fred,m  N  From what you have written, it's quite likely that you have never used Basic # Plus, BP2, VAX Basic, or DEC BASIC.P  Q In some applications the movement and changing of strings is a major part of the  	 activity.i     Dave   -- p4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadn Vanderbilt, PA  15486e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:49:34 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptors., Message-ID: <41760A7E.8060702@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:e   > Steve Lionel wrote:O > P >>I could not get from your earlier posts exactly what problem you are trying to >>solve. >> > M > not trying to solve any specific problem. But in the context of dicsussionswL > about the "dangers" of null terminated strings where "descriptors" are theL > answer to alkl evil microsoft problems, I started to wonder about how mustO > manually differentiate between allocated and used values in a descriptor, (attM > least in C) and hence my question whether the engineers had ever consideredhE > having both values in the structure when they initially devised it.o > O > But I guess one answer about the ability to fit the descriptor structure in aoN > small enough space to be handled by a single vax instruction may have been a > driving force. >   N Some DEC languages included support for descriptors, thus automatically doing M the 'behind the scenes' stuff for you.  For application programming, this is rN great.  Why be forced into drugery when a computer/compiler can do it so much * quicker.  Isn't that why we use computers?  P C doesn't support descriptors in the same manner, if at all.  You're at a lower R level.  This is one of my gripes about C usage in applications.  Not the only one.  Q As for sizes and such, VMS isn't a young OS.  It was developed when a programmer uO still had to worry about memory usage.  Sure, there was VM, but total physical -N memory on early systems was on a much smaller scale.  Today we talk of MB and N GB, but there was a time when we talked about KB.  (Not the keyboard.)  Going Q further back, the addressing was only 16 bit.  The entire address space for data oQ and code when running Basic Plus under RSTS was only 16 KB!  I still find myself t being memory conscious today.r   Dave   -- y4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:34:44 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorsl, Message-ID: <41760704.3010709@tsoft-inc.com>   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:e  Y > In article <41753908.6080304@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:q >  >>JF Mezei wrote:  >> >> >>>Tim Sneddon wrote:o >>>w >>>eN >>>>What is wrong with using a DSC$K_CLASS_S string and passing the address ofN >>>>DSC$W_LENGTH for the length argument too? The following is some BLISS code >>>>that explains what I mean: >>>> >>>>N >>>Yeah, but still requires that you hold the allocated size separately so youK >>>can reset the Ddsc$w_length field after you'd used the field to indicatel >>>current string length.v >>>fM >>>I know how to work with the current design. But just wondered if there was-P >>>some reason they didn't put in the 2 lengts (used, allocated) in the originalF >>>description definitions which would have made for cleaner programs. >>>  >>>iO >>Just guessing here.  The use of dynamic strings seems to be in BASIC.  (Note nR >>that I've not used all the languages that are/were available on VMS.)  Prior to M >>the development of dynamic strings for BASIC, it's my impression that most cQ >>string usage (with descriptors) was static (fixed length) strings.  Being more UI >>specific, the allocated memory for the actual data was fixed in length.v >>S >>If there's any reality to my guess, then the development of dynamic strings used  @ >>the available descriptors rather than develop new descriptors. >>Q >>I've heard, somewhere in the past, that when re-setting the value of a dynamic nS >>string, that if the new data is larger, then the existing memory is released and  Q >>a new block of memory of sufficient size is acquired.  If smaller, the size of  S >>the data is set and the rest of the memory ignored.  I'm guessing that if that's iQ >>so, that the memory would be in a location that is all released when the image dP >>is run down.  Still, a long running program would be 'leaking' memory.  Never < >>got into reading the source for the STR$ libraby routines. >> > K > A reasonable implemention would use out-of-band information to keep trackiL > of the current allocated size.  Without ever having looked at the sources,E > I'm 95% confident that the pointer that you see in a dynamic stringaD > descriptor points not to the beginning of the allocated block, but > a few bytes farther along. > L > +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+L > | class, type, length |                        | housekeeping fields     |L > +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+L > | DSC$A_POINTER       |  ------------------->  | Hello, world!           |8 > +---------------------+                        | 			 |L >                                                | <filler>                |L >                                                +-------------------------+ > E > You might even have another set of housekeeping fields prior to themD > ones shown here.  If you allocate a block of memory from a dynamicF > memory manager, chances are pretty good that the memory manager willF > reserve the right to keep some housekeeping information in the bytes@ > immediately preceding the memory it has allocated to the user. > L >                                                +-------------------------+L >                                                | memory manager overhead |L > +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+L > | class, type, length |                        | dynamic string overhead |L > +---------------------+                        +-------------------------+L > | DSC$A_POINTER       |  ------------------->  | Hello, world!           |L > +---------------------+                        |                         |L >                                                | <filler>                |L >                                                +-------------------------+ > G > So your dynamic string library reaches out and grabs a hunk of memoryaF > from the memory manager, the memory manager holds back a quadword orC > so to describe the block and hands the rest to the dynamic stringiE > library.  The dynamic string library holds back a quadword or so togE > describe the string and fills the rest with text.  And all the usereB > sees is a pointer to some memory that has the right string value	 > stored.r > G > If the string gets too big to fit, the dynamic string library reaches C > out to the memory manager and asks for a bigger hunk.  The memory @ > manager holds back a bit, hands the rest to the dynamic string> > library which holds back a bit, fills the text area with theH > appropriate new value, updates DSC$A_POINTER in the user's descriptor,F > copies the string over as neccessary and releases the old block backJ > to the memory manager which looks at the prologue that it had originallyD > held back, sanity-checks the deallocation request and releases the8 > block back to free space in the memory manager's pool. > H > Of course, since the dynamic string library and the memory manager areE > written by the same vendor, there may be a few useful optimizationseA > made.  There are certainly some tweakable parameters.  How much E > extra space should you allocate when you need to extend the string?eG > How small should you let a string shrink before you release the blockcD > and re-allocate a smaller one?  Should the string library maintainA > a lookaside list of pre-allocated blocks?  Or should it let theiB > memory manager do everything?  What allocation scheme should the@ > memory manager employ?  Should you do garbage collection?  Or $ > will you do explicit deallocation? > G > Fortunately, none of those decisions reaches across the line into theeE > user-visible descriptor.  You're able to hide all the relevant dataS) > structures in storage owned by the RTL.i > ? > What the user sees is a pretty normal seeming quadword string < > descriptor.  Your implementation decisions are transparent	 > to him.  >  > 	John Briggs >   P Good observations.  I think Steve has already posted that string allocation was P kept in hidden storage by the RTL.  Answers some questions I just never got the  energy to look into.  P Ah, the garbage collector.  Sure has been a long time since I worked with RSTS. P   I sometimes wonder how we ever got anything done on computers of that era and  memory capabilities.   Dave   -- O4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadh Vanderbilt, PA  15486D   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:38:44 -0400e( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorse, Message-ID: <417607F4.9070203@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:s   > Steve Lionel wrote:o > O >>As mentioned by others, the effect you want is met by the CLASS_VS descriptorNI >>with DTYPE_VT datatype. For non-string datatypes, specifying a separatedF >>allocation field seems, to me, outside of what descriptors were for. >> > L > Ok, now the tough question. If I were to start using this descriptor classM > instead of the "default" one, how many system services and library routinesd. > would actually handle this format properly ? >   P As for the system services, RTFM.  It's quite specific about what you can pass. P   While you might get away with a dynamic string descriptor in some cases since P it's almost identical to a fixed length string descriptor, using something else  should expect failure.  N The RTL stuff, LIB$, STR$, and such are another story.  When implementing any N new type of descriptor, the 'right' thing is they should be updated to handle  it.  Don't know.   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:09:35 GMTt4 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorsr1 Message-ID: <35wdd.1224$S_5.749@news.cpqcorp.net>n  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:41758A10.2BAAFADD@teksavvy.com... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:L > However, in today's environment, it seems to be that there is a whole hell ofK > a lot more dynamically allocated strings in programming because computerseB > handle far more "flexible" data and outpout it in graphical user
 interfaces
 > etc etc. >s  L This has little to nothing to do with dynamically allocated strings, that isK simple to do with what you have today without this second value.  Its value L is for strings that dynamically change beyond allocation and initialization.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:11:04 GMT 4 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorsl2 Message-ID: <s6wdd.1225$6h7.1043@news.cpqcorp.net>  G Well, in my wayback machine, I have programmed in Basic+2.  But I can'teD recall ever knowing or caring about what was under the covers of the language constructs.    5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagen& news:417604A7.2060300@tsoft-inc.com... > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >yH > > Consider usage patterns here.  The only real concern being expressed here isIH > > where the string length changes frequently (more than once), and the memoryJ > > for the string buffer itself is a variable length.  It's not the norm.> > > Strings are more likely to be static, or initialized once. >d >c > Fred,t >cI >  From what you have written, it's quite likely that you have never usedo Basice% > Plus, BP2, VAX Basic, or DEC BASIC.n >hK > In some applications the movement and changing of strings is a major part  of the > activity.h >n >s > Dave >a > --  6 > David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04506 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596@ > DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > 170 Grimplin Roadl > Vanderbilt, PA  15486n >i   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 09:07:15 -07000 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com (Dave Baxter)" Subject: Question about Mini-Merge= Message-ID: <a3c44af1.0410200807.5f380c91@posting.google.com>   F I was in the belief that "mini-merge" was a functionality that becomesC available with OpenVMS Vers 7.3-2, however reading through the "Newn; Features and Documentation" stuff, I find no mention of it. "      Am I wrong in my assumption??F      Can someone give me a link to a full description of "Mini-Merge",F i.e. what it does, how it is used, and when, or by what process, it is
 available.  C      I am hoping that this functionality will help with the mergingaC which takes place when a node which has SAN-attached Shadow membersn crashes.   thanks o   Dave...    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:27:48 -0500n2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>& Subject: Re: Question about Mini-Merge+ Message-ID: <4176A014.B20249DE@comcast.net>n   Dave Baxter wrote: > H > I was in the belief that "mini-merge" was a functionality that becomesE > available with OpenVMS Vers 7.3-2, however reading through the "Newl= > Features and Documentation" stuff, I find no mention of it.v$ >      Am I wrong in my assumption??H >      Can someone give me a link to a full description of "Mini-Merge",H > i.e. what it does, how it is used, and when, or by what process, it is > available. > E >      I am hoping that this functionality will help with the mergingdE > which takes place when a node which has SAN-attached Shadow memberss
 > crashes.  H Host-based mini-merge comes as an ECO to V7.3-2. I'm told it will not be back-ported to V7.3-1.   -- r David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:a" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/g   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:24:54 +0000 (UTC) 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>r7 Subject: Reserved Memory Registry - What's it good for? 2 Message-ID: <cl5hu5$7ki$1@hercules.btinternet.com>   Hi,w  K Personally, I've always believed The VMS Reserved Memory Registry to be therK Dog's Bollocks (and an integral part of VMS's VLM/VLDB offering) ever sinceeE I first read about it in "Memory Management with VLM features" in the K Programming Concepts Manual some years ago. So it has been with some dismayoC that I have witnessed Rdb Engineering's complete disregard for thisbI functionality while Oribble Oracle and their SGA seem to have embraced itoI with open arms. In my attempts to rationalize Rdb's continued inaction in F this matter I've usually just imagined that, because The Blue-Eyed BoyK Row-Ca$h cannot easily take advantage of it,  there's no bloody way they'retG gonna let those Global Buffer bastards get their hands on it and turn azJ pumkin into a coach! (Analogous to GB's treatment with 64-bit addressing?)  K But something Norm Lastovica wrote recently made me start to wonder exactlygF what (if anything?) Rdb is actually missing out on by pooh-poohing theK Reserved Memory Registry. With reference to the Global Buffer memory option,J "SHARED MEMORY IS PROCESS RESIDENT" he said, among other things, "will useF shared page tables and granularity hints.". I've always been under theL impression (and after re-reading the docs still am)  that unless you use theJ Registry AND you use the /ALLOCATE qualifier then you've got Jim Buckley'sJ when it comes to using Granularity Hints. Can someone please correct me if
 I'm wrong?  H Also, I would really appreciate it if you could add any pros/cons of theJ reserved memory registry as replies to this note to aid in future decision making processes. Thanks.t  I 1) Without RMR. System Manager has great difficulty correctly tuning yourtI system without it. AUTOGEN goes out the window. (There was a terrabyte of L memory around here somewhere a while ago but after opening that Rdb database I seem to be struggling.)   J 2) With RMR (and /ALLOCATE) Contiguous and Initialized memory is allocatedF at BOOT_TIME guaranteeing resource availability and speeding up futureL database opens/attaches. (Global buffers are now available to be primed with data)-  K 3) Without RMR. Can't open my Rdb database. We had enough contiguous memory.K at boot-time but before we could open our database all this other stuff hase jumped in and run amoc.i  L 4) Without RMR (and /ALLOCATE). Can't use Granularity Hints? "Invalid GlobalC PTEs are written to the global page table". "Physical Memory is not.& allocated until pages are referenced".  C 5) It just makes sense and looks pretty. A place for everything andt everything in its place.   Whaddaya reakon?   Regards Richard Mahern  G PS. I think Oribble Oracle uses the following naming convention for the  RMR: - ORA_<sid>_SGA  9 Regarding shared memory options for Global Buffers in Rdbt Norm Lastovica wrote:s To: <oraclerdb@jcc.com>-( Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:19 AM$ Subject: RE: Enabling Global Buffers  - - SHARED MEMORY IS PROCESS RESIDENT : same asF+ above except that the virtual memory is notC0 charged against a page file quota, is physically5 resident, will use shared page tables and granularityo hints.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:15:56 -0700. From: Z <z@no.spam>f. Subject: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined0 Message-ID: <10nd07d70nuhv81@corp.supernews.com>  F Weird thing happened this week on a VMS node I watch over ... On this A node we have a batch job that backs up the disk devices to tape,  G starting at 12:30AM ... and on Monday morning, this week (10/18/2004),  D the job ran but did nothing (the tape was still loaded and the .LOG  was empty).-  B Accounting tells me that the job terminated with an error because C SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE was not defined.  But when I was doing my poking 7C around yesterday afternoon to try to figure out why the backup job GB didn't run, I could see that the logical was there (SYSTEM table).  E Has anyone seen this before?  I've had this machine for a few months  E and it hasn't happened before, nor has it has it happened since, but n it's piqued my curiosity...a   This is Open VMS 7.3  - Here's an excerpt from the accounting record:e   DETACHED Process Termination ---------------------------- ...a@ Queue entry:                         Final status code: 00048548 ....E Final status text: %JBC-W-NOTIMZONRUL, SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not o defined, Daylight Savings Time   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:01:13 GMTd3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)d2 Subject: Re: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined2 Message-ID: <tRwdd.1232$Se7.1107@news.cpqcorp.net>  F In article <10nd07d70nuhv81@corp.supernews.com>, Z <z@no.spam> writes:G >Weird thing happened this week on a VMS node I watch over ... On this  B >node we have a batch job that backs up the disk devices to tape, H >starting at 12:30AM ... and on Monday morning, this week (10/18/2004), E >the job ran but did nothing (the tape was still loaded and the .LOG   >was empty). >MC >Accounting tells me that the job terminated with an error because sD >SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE was not defined.  But when I was doing my poking D >around yesterday afternoon to try to figure out why the backup job C >didn't run, I could see that the logical was there (SYSTEM table).s > F >Has anyone seen this before?  I've had this machine for a few months F >and it hasn't happened before, nor has it has it happened since, but  >it's piqued my curiosity... >e >This is Open VMS 7.3i > . >Here's an excerpt from the accounting record: >a >DETACHED Process Terminationa >----------------------------x >...A >Queue entry:                         Final status code: 00048548  >....eF >Final status text: %JBC-W-NOTIMZONRUL, SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not  >defined, Daylight Savings Times >i  M Was the system re-booted between the failure and the time you "poked around"?l% Re-booting would re-set this logical.i  & I have no idea how/why it got deleted.   -- oJ       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:19:05 -0700t From: Z <z@no.spam>a2 Subject: Re: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined0 Message-ID: <10nd7e9ab2ej69c@corp.supernews.com>   Charlie Hammond wrote:O > Was the system re-booted between the failure and the time you "poked around"?n' > Re-booting would re-set this logical.l   Well, I'll be darned.   6 Right now: 20-OCT-2004 10:11:19.34  Uptime  1 09:45:10  : Thanks, how did I miss that?!  Now I need to find out why.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:14:10 -0400i( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>+ Subject: Re: SYSUAF => export passwords ???a, Message-ID: <41760232.8080607@tsoft-inc.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:e  i > In article <cl3dcb$ba4$1@news.tiscali.fr>, "Alexandre Mongin" <NOSPAM_alexandre.mongin@csgv.fr> writes:e   >>K >>I've tried many, many things... and I can't make work the exe in a batch.W    G I've got to ask whether your BATCH environment is what you think it is.i  # Does the program work interactivly?o   Does it work as a sub-process?  P A BASIC program intended to work in a batch job should NOT open the keyboard on 3 a non-zero channel, at least when running in BATCH.-   Dave   -- -4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roadw Vanderbilt, PA  15486r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:03:11 -0500a2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>+ Subject: Re: SYSUAF => export passwords ??? + Message-ID: <41769A4E.6D8A6C8F@comcast.net>g   David Froble wrote:l > ! > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:V > k > > In article <cl3dcb$ba4$1@news.tiscali.fr>, "Alexandre Mongin" <NOSPAM_alexandre.mongin@csgv.fr> writes:J >  > >>M > >>I've tried many, many things... and I can't make work the exe in a batch.a > I > I've got to ask whether your BATCH environment is what you think it is., > % > Does the program work interactivly?i >   > Does it work as a sub-process? > Q > A BASIC program intended to work in a batch job should NOT open the keyboard on-5 > a non-zero channel, at least when running in BATCH.i  G Agreed. Specifically, the only time you should need to OPEN SYS$COMMANDmF explicitly is when the program needs to be sensitive to whether or notD SYS$INPUT (stdin) may be re-directed or may be a device other than a	 terminal.F  G Channel #0 is always open in BASIC. So, INPUT and PRINT statements witheE no channel number will default to channel zero(0). In batch, (L)INPUT E and INPUT LINE statements will get data from the job stream and PRINT + statements will output data to the job log.e  E I've used that many times in the past, and it does work just fine, asuE long you don't try to do formatted screens using escape sequences ands) such. Don't have an example handy, sorry.    -- t David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:h" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/L   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:42:58 +0200 1 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?=A+ Subject: Re: VMS and Perl /Python scriptingl7 Message-ID: <41767976$0$31768$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>    labadie wrote:   >> Hi everyone,m >>E >> Does anyone know of any good web sites with sample Perl or Python  ) >> scripts specifically designed for VMS?D >>G >> I've been doing some Perl/Python development on VMS and the results b >> have been very positive.- >>4 >> Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. >>	 >> Thanks@ > 
 > for Perl) > http://www.sidhe.org/vmsperl/index.html:7 > http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~jphb/perl/pod/perlvms.htmlD >  >  > for Python, seem > http://vmspython.dyndns.org/ > J > and something tells me some new (Vms specific) examples should be added  > quite soon > :-)t Thanks Grard :-)i* this is done, I have add some new examples   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 03:39:53 -0700 From: vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru D Subject: Re: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager for VT-compatible terminals= Message-ID: <b587d953.0410200239.2f92cab6@posting.google.com>r  e David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<4175B3F7.3FF84BC2@comcast.net>...   > vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru wrote: > > i > > David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<4174620A.E47B6086@comcast.net>... $ > > > vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru wrote: > > > >rJ > > > > I present the new release 2.2-6 of my freeware open source programM > > > > VTfm which is a Norton Commander-style file manager for OpenVMS. VTfmM3 > > > > works on VAX, Alpha and IA64 under OpenVMS.e > > > >I& > > > > You can download VTFM.ZIP fromN > > > > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~vershinin/vtfm.zip, unzip archive and# > > > > read README.TXT in [.VTFM].  > > > I > > > I pulled the source for this down and uploaded it to HP's testdrivedM > > > cluster and compiled/linked it on both Alpha and Itanic. The process onh! > > > Itanic was MARKEDLY slower!n > > >0 > > > -- > > > David J Dachtera > > > dba DJE Systems  > > > http://www.djesys.com/ > > >./ > > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:i( > > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > > >n. > > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:% > > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r > >  > > Hi, David! > > B > > What do you mean: the compile/link process or running program? >  > The compile/link.a >  > -- i > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:a$ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r  
 Hi, David!  > I also made measurement of VTFM compile/link on HP's testdrive' cluster. The results are the following:   # Alpha under OpenVMS 7.3-2  - 6 sec,j$ Alpha under OpenVMS E8.2   - 12 sec,$ Itanium under OpenVMS E8.2 - 10 sec.   Vladimir Vershinin,h vershinin-vk@mtu-net.rua   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:14:10 GMTh! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> D Subject: Re: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager for VT-compatible terminals8 Message-ID: <cthcn0d5bcm9fg9f0f3u386h0poj0mc94l@4ax.com>  = On 20 Oct 2004 03:39:53 -0700, vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru wrote:   ? >I also made measurement of VTFM compile/link on HP's testdriver( >cluster. The results are the following: >J$ >Alpha under OpenVMS 7.3-2  - 6 sec,% >Alpha under OpenVMS E8.2   - 12 sec,i% >Itanium under OpenVMS E8.2 - 10 sec.w >d >Vladimir Vershinin, >vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru  O That would be the Testdrive machines that when you signed up for an account youP? agreed not to perform any benchmarks or performance testing?:-)-  I This last week I've been porting & testing an application on both Alpha &eO Itanium. I haven't timed it but for what it's worth the compile/link time on an-+ rx2600 is noticeably faster than on a DS10.a   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------   Date: 20 Oct 2004 06:14:23 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>1 Subject: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regimep? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-mirXNGsxnx6j@dave2_os2.home.ours>r  B On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:45:42 UTC, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E.  Feldman) wrote:w  F > Saddam regime.) We just might be on the way to democracy in Iraq. WeH > did it in Germany, Japan, and Italy. If it werern't for these "freedomD > fighters" of yours, we just might have been able to do it in Iraq.3 > Assuming that really is W's objective, of course.a   AlanD           please remember that Germany was a democracy before WWII. F Adolf Hitler came to power as a result of a general election. That he A abused, cheated and was ultimately responsible for the deaths of aE millions of people is how one can compare Saddam Hussain to him. Not fF w.r.t. to the state of democacy in their countries. WWII restored (andC strengthened) democracy in Germany. Iraq is a completely different o
 situation.   -- e Cheers - Dave W.  F PS My apologies to the rest of c.o.v for continuing this OT thread. I ; should concentrate my attention on the DECthreads thread...    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 07:44:28 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 5 Subject: Re: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regimet3 Message-ID: <ywZPQEzVZxtv@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  t In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-mirXNGsxnx6j@dave2_os2.home.ours>, "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes:   > AlanF >           please remember that Germany was a democracy before WWII. ? > Adolf Hitler came to power as a result of a general election.y  H    No, he did not.  Hitler never won more than 20% of a free, open vote.I    He came to power because the then head of state (Bismark?) put him in  E    a place where he thought he could be controlled.  Then the head ofnE    state died and Hitler consolidated his own power as head of state.n   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:10:51 +0000 (UTC)v From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk5 Subject: Re: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regimeo) Message-ID: <cl5v5r$4th$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>e  q In article <ywZPQEzVZxtv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:tu >In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-mirXNGsxnx6j@dave2_os2.home.ours>, "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes:p >t >> AlanaG >>           please remember that Germany was a democracy before WWII. O@ >> Adolf Hitler came to power as a result of a general election. >eI >   No, he did not.  Hitler never won more than 20% of a free, open vote.tJ >   He came to power because the then head of state (Bismark?) put him in F >   a place where he thought he could be controlled.  Then the head ofF >   state died and Hitler consolidated his own power as head of state. >dN Hitler's National socialist party won 230 seats Reichstag in the July 31, 1932J election making it the largest political party although it was short of an( overall majority in the 608 member body.  F (It's true that the Nazi's never captured more than 37 percent of the M national vote however many democratic countries around the world are governed N by parties with similar percentages of the national vote - this all depends onG the voting system used and how many parties take part in the election.)       $ In the earlier presidential election  J Hitler had polled 30.1 percent coming second to Hindenburg's 49.6 percent.J Since Hindenburg had not received a majority there was a runoff of the top three candidates.   # Hindenburg then polled 53.0 percent  with Hitler polling 36.8 percent.  P Although Hitler headed the largest party Hindenburg initially refused to appoint5 him Chancellor and instead appointed Franz von Papen.p  G Political deadlock then led to new elections in November 1932. Althought? the Nazi's lost 34 seats they still remained the largest party.   H Hindenburg then fired Papen and appointed an army general named Kurt Von; Schleicher however he tended his resignation after 57 days.   ; On January 30, 1933 Hindenburgh appointed Hitler Chancelor.     J Following the Reichstag fire Hitler persuaded Hindenburg to issue a decree entitled  K "For the protection of the people and the state." Justified as a "defensiveaB measure against Communist acts of violence endangering the state".F The Decree suspended the constitutional guarantees pertaining to civil
 liberties.  E Two weeks after the Reichstag fire, Hitler requested the Reichstag toeM temporarily delegate it's powers to him so that he could adequately deal withr the crisis.b  N On March 23, 1933 , what has gone down in German History as the "Enabling Act"K made Hitler dictator of Germany, free of all legislative and constitutional  constraints.           see   2 http://www.antiwar.com/orig2/hornberger070404a.htm        
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.583 ************************