1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 21 Oct 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 585       Contents:% Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS % Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS % Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS % Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS % Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS  DEC-C: Null string constant ? ! Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ? ! Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ? ! Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ? ! Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ? ! Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ? . Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS?2 Re: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS?2 RE: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS?2 Re: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS? Re: ECU disk1 Re: How can I send an HTTP get request using DCL? 1 Re: How can I send an HTTP get request using DCL?  Re: HSG80 !NEWCONxx  Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime RE: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: JAR files must be stream-lf  Re: JAR files must be stream-lf 0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception0 Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception# Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software # Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software  Re: OT: Short Article about Sun  Re:  OT: why USA is a regime RE: OT: why USA is a regime  Re: pthreads and scheduling  Re: pthreads and scheduling  Re: Question about Descriptors Re: Question about Descriptors$ Samba 2.2.8 for OpenVMS, new release) Re: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined " Re: SYSUAF => export passwords ???, Re: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regime Re: What happened with SEVMS? * Re: Yahoo: OpenVMS Jobs = Bangalore, India  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 07:43:06 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) . Subject: Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS3 Message-ID: <cuNnYj5LK9Fq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <417746F9.2B9800E2@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > O > A DEC service guy once told me to just wash the rollers with a bit of alchool O > to remove any grease they pickup over time. Seems to have worked fine for me. N > Although I guess using dishwahing soap and water would be better in the longP > term over rubber, that tends to require disassembly to get the rollers totallyI > out , whereas a qtip with a bit of achoool can do wonders to teh roller  > without needing disassembly.  E    Alcohol is what typerwriter mechanics used for the same problem.       It works.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:15:00 GMT 6 From: Jeffrey Coffield <jeffrey@digitalsynergyinc.com>. Subject: Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS= Message-ID: <DvPdd.33214$QJ3.1499@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>    Jeremy Begg wrote:    M > So I'm looking around for a replacement laser printer and would like to get K > a color printer which does double sided printing.  It has to work with my K > OpenVMS systems (using both Multinet stream/telnet symbiont and DCPS$SMB) E > and with MacOS X.  A search has uncovered four possible candidates:  >  > 1.  HP Color LaserJet 4650dn > 2.  HP Color LaserJet 3700dn > 3.  Lexmark C752dn > 4.  Lexmark C510dn >   B I personally have Xerox 7300 that I print to from VMS that is far 6 superior to the HP color printers. It was about $5500.  B There are a few things to consider in deciding on a color printer.  D I decided on it because I do a lot of postscript programming on VMS * systems and it met the following criteria:  5 Pantone support so I can get good color reproduction.   , Able to handle 100lb paper (postcard stock).  I Print 12x18 so it can be trimmed to a 11x17 page that is printed all the   way to the edge (full bleed).    Duplex on regular paper.  I A disk drive in the printer that has a supported method of storing large  C hirez color images that can be called in to a PostScript print job.   B Also be aware that all the color printers that I have seen take a @ significant amount of time to warm up compared to a b/w printer.  
 Jeff Coffield    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:23:06 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>. Subject: Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS5 Message-ID: <211020041023052491%paul.anderson@hp.com>   8 In article <BD9C35E0.6B70%notme@vsm.com.au>, Jeremy Begg <notme@vsm.com.au> wrote:   I > The 4600dn is the most expensive but I know it works well with OpenVMS.  > F > The 3700dn is at the top end of my price range but does it work with> > OpenVMS?  (The DECprint Supervisor SPD lists it, but on HP'sC > "printers" web site, OpenVMS isn't listed as one of the supported  > operating systems.)  > C > The Lexmark C752Ldn is similar in price & specs to the 3700dn and 1 > appears to be supported by DECprint Supervisor.  > F > The Lexmark C510dn is about $700 cheaper than the C752Ldn or 3700dn,8 > but is not mentioned in the DECprinter Supervisor SPD.  8 DCPS fully supports the HP Color LaserJet 3700 and 4650.  D Although DCPS supports many monochrome Lexmark models, we don't haveC any experience with the Lexmark color printers.  It's likely they'd ) work as an unsupported printer with DCPS.   G The HP web pages don't list OpenVMS as a supported operating system for % printers even though it obviously is.   B I can't speak for the relative quality of the 3700 vs. 4650, but IB suspect that the 4650 would produce better quality output than the 3700.    Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:08:57 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> . Subject: Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS, Message-ID: <McednRCQCqGWTOrcRVn-jA@igs.net>   Paul Anderson wrote: > E > The HP web pages don't list OpenVMS as a supported operating system + > for printers even though it obviously is.      Paul,    Nothing personal....  L Sometimes it's little details like this that drive us nuts. How difficult isK it for somebody at HP to get the people who maintain a web page to say that K VMS is a supported o/s for a product? It costs nothing (figuratively) to do L so at the time the pages are created - after all what's the incremental cost6 of typing 7 more characters (OpenVMS) onto a web page.  D It goes to first impressions when prospective new customers look forI solutions; it pops-up as another 'hit' when doing as search; it's another . identifiable product to sell that's supported.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:21:10 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>. Subject: Re: Color Laser printers with OpenVMS5 Message-ID: <211020041321103633%paul.anderson@hp.com>   7 In article <McednRCQCqGWTOrcRVn-jA@igs.net>, John Smith  <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   A > Sometimes it's little details like this that drive us nuts. How E > difficult is it for somebody at HP to get the people who maintain a E > web page to say that VMS is a supported o/s for a product? It costs E > nothing (figuratively) to do so at the time the pages are created - C > after all what's the incremental cost of typing 7 more characters  > (OpenVMS) onto a web page.  G I agree.  I'll bring this issue up with product management to see if we  can do something about it.   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:53:42 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: DEC-C: Null string constant ?, Message-ID: <417794EE.9001D7E1@teksavvy.com>   char *mybuffer ;
 mybuffer = ""  myroutine(mybuffer);   ---- myroutine(char *mybuffer)  { . printf ("Address of string=>%ld\n", mybuffer); }   N Retults in a big fat value of 0, and of course, if you try to strlen(mybuffer) the program crashes.  M I was under the impression that "" yielded a valid string constant containing M only the null character, and that you could use this to still provide a valid = pointer address to the various routines in your applications.   K Now, after years of using it, I find myself realising that my technique had  been flawed all along !!!!!   H Is there a way to allocate a string constant that contains only the null- character, (what one woudl expect "" to do ?)     I used to differentiate between:   ptr =  0;  and ptr = "" ;   $ but it seems that they are the same.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 07:44:49 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org* Subject: Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ?3 Message-ID: <sN3D0XgOxIyU@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <417794EE.9001D7E1@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > char *mybuffer ; > mybuffer = ""  > myroutine(mybuffer); >  > ---- > myroutine(char *mybuffer)  > { 0 > printf ("Address of string=>%ld\n", mybuffer); > }  >   P > Retults in a big fat value of 0, and of course, if you try to strlen(mybuffer) > the program crashes.  
 $ type test.c  #include <stdio>   my_routine ( char *mybuffer ) { 5     printf ( "Address of string =>%ld\n", mybuffer );  }    main() {    char* my_buffer;   my_buffer = "";    my_routine ( my_buffer );   }   	 $ cc test  $ link test  $ r test Address of string =>65632  $ cc /vers nl:( DEC C V5.5-002 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1    O > I was under the impression that "" yielded a valid string constant containing O > only the null character, and that you could use this to still provide a valid ? > pointer address to the various routines in your applications.   
 Works for me.   G It seems to me that the compiler would be within its rights to allocate 8 that one character string constant in ephemeral storage.  A If I get a pointer to that storage area in one line and use it in F another, the compiler could have stuck something else there.  Or could, have even deallocated the pointed-to memory.  B If you want a pointer to a cell containing a null then you should,> in my opinion (and I'm not a practicing C programmer) allocate/ the one byte null-terminated buffer explicitly:    	char null = ""  	char *my_buffer;    	my_buffer = &null;    	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 07:59:25 -07000 From: chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk (Chris Doran)* Subject: Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ?= Message-ID: <948f0720.0410210659.42d7b2c6@posting.google.com>   a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:<417794EE.9001D7E1@teksavvy.com>...  > char *mybuffer ; > mybuffer = ""   C Maybe the missing semicolon is doing something funny to you, but my  compiler notices it and moans.   > myroutine(mybuffer); >  > ---- > myroutine(char *mybuffer)  > { 0 > printf ("Address of string=>%ld\n", mybuffer); > }  > " > Retults in a big fat value of 0,  D Strange, it works OK for me, giving non-zero values, but I'm using a very old DEC C (V5.2-003).  / > and of course, if you try to strlen(mybuffer)  > the program crashes.  E It shouldn't; it should give 0. ISTR there are some C implementations A that do reasonable, non-crashy things with NULL arguments to some A strxxx() functions, but most prefer to go without the overhead of  testing every time.   O > I was under the impression that "" yielded a valid string constant containing O > only the null character, and that you could use this to still provide a valid ? > pointer address to the various routines in your applications.  > M > Now, after years of using it, I find myself realising that my technique had  > been flawed all along !!!!!   F I'm sure we've all been in th embarrassing situation from time-to-timeD of discovering a lifetime assumption that's wrong and then wonderingB how so many programs have ever worked, but this isn't one of them.  J > Is there a way to allocate a string constant that contains only the null/ > character, (what one woudl expect "" to do ?)   C Exactly what you expected it to do. I tend to save a byte by doing:   & const char anystring[] = "any string";1 #define NULstring &anystring[sizeof(anystring)-1]   @ but that's because I was brought up on machines with very little memory.    " > I used to differentiate between: >  > ptr =  0;  and ptr = "" ;  > & > but it seems that they are the same.  A No they aren't, not in any self-respecting compiler, anyway. Even ! Micro$oft C does what you expect.   6 Get thee to VAX-DEBUG and see what's really happening.   Chris    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:47:09 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>* Subject: Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ?* Message-ID: <4177CBED.40109@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:    > char *mybuffer ; > mybuffer = ""  > myroutine(mybuffer); >  > ---- > myroutine(char *mybuffer)  > { 0 > printf ("Address of string=>%ld\n", mybuffer); > }  > P > Retults in a big fat value of 0, and of course, if you try to strlen(mybuffer) > the program crashes. > O > I was under the impression that "" yielded a valid string constant containing O > only the null character, and that you could use this to still provide a valid ? > pointer address to the various routines in your applications.     5 First note that my prefered language is BASIC, not C.   O A null is a valid character.  It takes one byte of storage for each character.  P It is a bit tough to have a string of nulls when using null terminated strings. (   Another shortcoming of that technique.  : A null string is a string with no characters, zero length.   Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:58:00 +0100 - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> * Subject: Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ?8 Message-ID: <jumfn09c5dqflohmrrnaveaesptogu6ksu@4ax.com>  > On 21 Oct 2004 07:44:49 -0500, briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:   >Works for me.  H Works for me too, with exactly the same address reported.  On Vax, it isC 512.  The "machine code" shown in listings is not terribly helpful, I referring to psects and symbolic offsets that are not clearly defined nor E initialised.  (C listings have always been deficient wrt the likes of 	 Fortran.)   K Given that the code snippet wouldn't compile anyway (and was maybe typed in I by hand) I suspect the real problem is something else entirely.  An empty B string should exist and be allocated storage of 1 byte, namely the terminating null.    --  : You don't need to be a cannibal to be fed up with people.    Mail john rather than nospam...    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:22:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> * Subject: Re: DEC-C: Null string constant ?, Message-ID: <4177F03C.A756C51F@teksavvy.com>  N OK, it had to be a silly mistake. Thanks all for confirming that the "" should? yield a valid pointer to a single byte string (null character).   ! Turns out it was a silly mistake.    I had    if (arcg > 0) ptr1 = argv[1] ; else          ptr1 = "" ;   M Turns out the second statement never got executed since when no arguments are I given, argc is set to 1 (first one is the file name of image), so when no F arguments were provided, instead of assigning "" to ptre1, I was still0 assigning argv[1] which was in fact a 0 pointer.  J I had nighmares at night thinking that all the programs I had ever writtenE were flawed because of this.  Now I know it was just a silly mistake.   L Sometimes it is the simplest code that gives the most heartaches :-( :-( :-(   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 05:23:06 -0700% From: dterzic@hemo.net (Dejan Terzic) 7 Subject: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS? = Message-ID: <3fbb7bf7.0410210423.3a01dab3@posting.google.com>   C How to display status of all network adapters in OpenVMS cluster? I C want to see their IP addresses and are they working (something like A online or offline). Is there a way to get this and how? I want to F write a command procedure which will check that, and it finds that any9 adapter is not working to send warning message by E-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:24:06 -0400 * From: Joel Loveless <joell@mindspring.com>; Subject: Re: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS? 8 Message-ID: <behfn0pufkj2ok46dmsu0h9igsrfni9asa@4ax.com>  8 To display cluster interconnect status, use the command   
 $ MC SCACP  D and use the show function to display adapter counter, status, etc. IC know this is available on VMS 7.3-1 or higher, not sure if on older 	 versions.   E On 21 Oct 2004 05:23:06 -0700, dterzic@hemo.net (Dejan Terzic) wrote:   D >How to display status of all network adapters in OpenVMS cluster? ID >want to see their IP addresses and are they working (something likeB >online or offline). Is there a way to get this and how? I want toG >write a command procedure which will check that, and it finds that any : >adapter is not working to send warning message by E-mail.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:11:23 -0500 * From: Michael Clark <MClark@Nemschoff.com>; Subject: RE: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS? Q Message-ID: <A2A28DB6D52E084783ACD6E6C6F5D7900274F8DA@EMAILSERVER2.nemschoff.com>    > -----Original Message-----2 > From: dterzic@hemo.net [mailto:dterzic@hemo.net]* > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 7:23 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 9 > Subject: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS?  >  > E > How to display status of all network adapters in OpenVMS cluster? I E > want to see their IP addresses and are they working (something like C > online or offline). Is there a way to get this and how? I want to H > write a command procedure which will check that, and it finds that any; > adapter is not working to send warning message by E-mail.   I in TCPIP you can do ifconfig -a.  This however doesnt give you the status 1 on VMS (unlike it will on most *NIX like systems)    TCPIP> ifconfig -a TN0: flags=80<NOARP>6 WE0: flags=c43<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,MULTICAST,SIMPLEX>      HWaddr  aa-00-04-00-1f-07J      inet 10.10.10.99  netmask ff000000 broadcast 255.255.255.0 ipmtu 1500A LO0: flags=100c89<UP,LOOPBACK,NOARP,MULTICAST,SIMPLEX,NOCHECKSUM> 1      inet 127.0.0.1  netmask ff000000  ipmtu 4096   
 Michael Clark  Nemschoff Chairs Inc mclark at nemschoff dot com " CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, MCP Voice: (920) 457 7726 x294 Fax:  (920) 453 6594       A CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This electronic transmission, including all L attachments, is directed in confidence solely to the person(s) to whom it isL addressed, or an authorized recipient, and may not otherwise be distributed,L copied or disclosed. The contents of the transmission may also be subject toJ intellectual property rights and all such rights are expressly claimed andG are not waived. If you have received this transmission in error, please H notify the sender immediately by return electronic transmission and thenH immediately delete this transmission, including all attachments, without* copying, distributing or disclosing same.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:05:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ; Subject: Re: Display status of network adapters in OpenVMS? , Message-ID: <4177DE30.8931DDEC@teksavvy.com>   Dejan Terzic wrote:  > E > How to display status of all network adapters in OpenVMS cluster? I 6 > want to see their IP addresses and are they working     
 $MC SYSMAN SYSMAN> SET ENV/CLUSTER % SYSMAN> DO TCPIP SHOW INTERFACES/FULL   J This will show the TCPIP interfaces on each node in the cluster. This willT give you both the virtual device name, as well as the ethernet adresses of the card.  L This does not tell you however about any other stack that might be using theR same ethernet card (such as DECNET, LATCP, SCS or any other proprietary software).   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 09:19:11 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: ECU disk 3 Message-ID: <3WFe0IgmTmH9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <cl3bqv$eis$2@newslocal.mitre.org>, lewis@PROBE.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) writes:  > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes in article <UWGjAa7xXsCi@eisner.encompasserve.org> dated 19 Oct 2004 10:04:42 -0500: b >>In article <cl1i0j$n74$2@hercules.btinternet.com>, "Rob H" <robert.heyes@btinternet.com> writes:O >>> Where can I obtain an EISA (ECU) disk for an Alpha Server 1000? Can anyone    >>> send me a link or the files? >>2 >>That last I knew, that was copyrighted software. >>I >>Those of us who make a living from copyrighted software are unlikely to   >>be giving away illicit copies. > H > Larry, didn't each and every Alpha with EISA come with an ECU disk?  IN > don't think it's nice to expect somebody to re-pay a license fee because the7 > disk was lost (or wore out) somewhere along the line.   I You might not think it is nice, but if DEC had a contractual relationship I with the company that wrote ECU, I think it is proper that DEC (and their   successors) honor that contract.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Oct 2004 23:37:25 -07005 From: stuart.symonds@commerzbank.com (Stuart Symonds) : Subject: Re: How can I send an HTTP get request using DCL?= Message-ID: <90d46f26.0410202237.13ff034a@posting.google.com>   D Thanks to you all for your responses, curl does exatcly what I want. Thanks for the tip.    Cheers,  Stuart.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 03:07:02 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> : Subject: Re: How can I send an HTTP get request using DCL?, Message-ID: <41775FDC.C985D0CB@teksavvy.com>   Stuart Symonds wrote:  > F > Thanks to you all for your responses, curl does exatcly what I want.  L beware however that when you use curl or any other utility against a windowsI server, you may also find yourself with the "hurl" utility which produces G violent spurts of foul output aimed at your screen and/or keyboard. :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:33:09 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) Subject: Re: HSG80 !NEWCONxx1 Message-ID: <04102106330898@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>    Mike Naime wrote: $ > Nope.  You can re-name all day....L > It's when you remove/change the storage presentation from ENA=ALL that you > are affected.   N Thanks Mike.  As I suspected - since I am tearing out old storage units I haveN the luxury to reassign them with new ID's so not to be a problem with ENA=ALL.  I > My convention for the connection names is {Node Name}{Controller}{Port} J > Example:   A Server name ABCD01 would get the folowing connection names.
 > ABCD01B1
 > ABCD01B2
 > ABCD01T1
 > ABCD01T2 >                ^ > B = Bottom Controller  > T = Top Controller  , In my naming convention I use the following:  
 SS_NNN_PPP   SS = Server abrev. NNN = HSG80 controller number  PP = Port number   HSG80.001> SHOW CONNECTION  O    Name      Operating system    Controller  Port    Address    Status   Offset   N S6_001_01          VMS              THIS       1      011400   OL this       0M            HOST_ID=2000-0000-C922-354C         ADAPTER_ID=1000-0000-C922-354C   N S6_002_02          VMS              OTHER      2      011400   OL other      0M            HOST_ID=2000-0000-C922-354C         ADAPTER_ID=1000-0000-C922-354C  ..  6 I label all my HSG80 top controllers with an odd # and6         all my HSG80 bottom contollers with an even #.  ' Such as 001/002, 003/004, 005/006, etc. ) Then set the prompt on each one to match.   
 Thanks again!      J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*n  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:08:58 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime ) Message-ID: <cl7ub9$o11$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   q In article <SKVnto1hK7ii@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: ] >In article <41768BC2.7D240F53@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:  >> Bob Koehler wrote: 6 >>>    Go back to school, kid.  Treaties are not laws. >>   > G >   The US does not say treaties are laws.  So treaties are not laws in G >   the US.  The US has not granted authority to the UN to change that.  > C >   In the US a law must be passed by both houses of Congress, then < >   signed by the president (unless his veto is overridden). > D >   A treaty must be recommended by the president, and then approvedE >   (and advised) by the Senate.  The House of Representatives is not 
 >   involved.  > G >   The Constitution of the United States says so.  No higher authority E >   than the Constitution has been granted.  No treaty with the UN or 7 >   any other foreign body superceeds the Constitution.  >   N So does that mean that any treaty entered into by the US has no legal standingM as far as the US is concerned and is only binding on the other parties to the  treaty ?  E If it is legally binding then by most peoples definition it is a law. K If it isn't legally binding then the US really is a rogue state since noone < would be able to trust it in any international negotiations.        
 David Webb Security Team Leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 11:23:38 +0200 ! From: Soterro <soterroatyahoocom> ' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime : Message-ID: <41777f92$0$5446$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: G > If it is legally binding then by most peoples definition it is a law. M > If it isn't legally binding then the US really is a rogue state since noone > > would be able to trust it in any international negotiations.  G 'Rogue' definition changes dramatically depending on which side of the   border one is...   S    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 07:34:07 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime = Message-ID: <MNKdnfVgKOXQA-rcRVn-uw@metrocastcablevision.com>   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:lzfSqPz2Zkwt@eisner.encompasserve.org... K > In article <oaWdncLiMbRrruvcRVn-qw@metrocastcablevision.com>, "Bill Todd"   <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > > J > > The U.S. can posture all it wants to without breaking the law.  But itL > > cannot *act* on those statements (if they contravene the treaties it hasD > > ratified) without both breaking the international law that those treatiesJ > > embody *and* breaking *U.S.* law (which the Constitution defines those% > > ratified treaties to be part of).  > 4 >    Go back to school, kid.  Treaties are not laws.   Article. VI.  J Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shallL be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made,I under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the L Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in theB Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.   (United States Constitution)  2 Seems like *someone* needs to go back to school...   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 08:46:52 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime = Message-ID: <CJKdnW1xlovGMurcRVn-gQ@metrocastcablevision.com>   5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:4176AA2F.3070006@tsoft-inc.com... > Bill Todd wrote: > 9 > > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message  > I > >>I'm not sure that I'll blindly accept your assertion such agreements.  The  > >> > > US > > J > >>has, at least at times, been rather adamant about being able to act in > >> > > it's own > > 2 > >>interest, and not be limited by any UN action. > >> > > K > > That's called freedom of speech.  And it's quite a different issue than  > > freedom of action. > > J > > The U.S. can posture all it wants to without breaking the law.  But itL > > cannot *act* on those statements (if they contravene the treaties it hasD > > ratified) without both breaking the international law that those treatiesJ > > embody *and* breaking *U.S.* law (which the Constitution defines those% > > ratified treaties to be part of).  > > J > > The only way to defy the agreements we have entered into with the U.N.H > > without breaking both international law and our own laws is to firstI > > formally notify the U.N. that they are being discarded (in which case J > > *subsequent* actions that violate them will violate only international law,H > > which you seem to think we should feel free to do - and even I would agree L > > that this at least should be considered in some cases where we feel that law K > > is wrong, but of course that's not the case at all where it's law which  we$ > > have freely ratified ourselves). >  > D > I'm not sure what the above is refering to.  If it's refering to a response to C > an outside attack then I don't believe what's written is correct.   D It is precisely correct.  Perhaps you just didn't read it carefully.  I Some actions are permitted in self-defense.  Others are not.  It is not a ? matter left entirely up to the discretion of the injured party.      Since I'm L > considering this an exchange between various parties (myself included) who eachC > know what they want to know and will not in any case change their 
 opinions, I'm G > not going to go and read the entire UN charter and related documents.   J You'll need to develop at least some minimal acquaintance with the charterG if you want to have any clue about what's legal and what is not.  Which G would be desirable if you're going to continue to make assertions about ? legality (at least if you care about accuracy in what you say).    ...   ( > > The people we're dealing with are soK > > cowardly that they willingly die flying airplanes into buildings and by J > > personally detonating explosives wrapped around their bodies, and they do so J > > not because they give a hoot in hell about us, but because of what our0 > > country does to them in their own backyards. >  > F > I think that I've mentioned the leaders, not the dups they get to do
 these, yes$ > brave, but incredibly stupid acts.  I You mean just as our leaders get others to do their fighting for them?  I J covered that earlier, but you seem to have missed it (though did manage to excise it in passing).  &   I have a hard time understanding anyD > teachings that so throughly disregard the value of the individual.  K In any military endeavor, the value of the individual is measured by his or G her contribution to the cause, and people who give their lives for such F cause are considered heroes by their compatriots, not victims of theirA leaders.  This is true even for conflicts which may be considered I ill-advised like Vietnam or the current abomination in Iraq - i.e., it is K fully possible to be a hero even when acting in an unworthy cause - and, by J contrast, those in the military who refuse to subordinate their own safety: to the pursuit of the shared cause are considered cowards.  J If people *really* valued individuals per se, there would *be* no militaryL action.  The fact that you may have difficulty seeing the clear parallels inE the 'terrorist' organizations to the way other military organizations $ operate is your failing, not theirs.     I have great- > sympathy for those who have been so misled.   K You're the one who's mislead:  the people you're talking about know exactly J what they're doing and why they're doing it, and do it gladly.  Unlike ourG own military, which is largely full of people who never expected to see E actual action and danger, the people you're talking about volunteered  specifically for it.   >  > H > > We don't have to surrender:  we just have to cut the crap that we've beenK > > dishing out since not long after the end of WWII.  You're old enough to K > > remember when The Ugly American was first published, and we've become a  hell > > of a lot uglier since. >  >NG > You've a quick way of grouping most US citizens (I assume you excludeo	 yourself)nI > in this manner.  I do not accept your claim.  I've traveled outside the  countrywJ > some, not overmuch.  I've always tried to respect others, their customs, andt0 > such.  I've also respected their perspectives.  K Really?  You certainly don't seem to be respecting them here, by suggestinglK that no justification existed for 9/11 and subsequent violent opposition toi U.S. behavior.  J Just because you don't *see* yourself as an ugly American doesn't mean youL are not one.  In fact, it might well make you more of one - since you're notJ only part of the problem (perhaps not personally part of the behavior, butE supportive of it simply by virtue of your support of the system whichq; executes it) but self-righteous about your blindness to it.      And yes, I've known those whoeL > have not, and I feel only disgust for them.  I've seen the restraint shown byG > the targets of such disrespect, and wished that such restraint wasn't  shown. >eF > My perspective, the world is filled with good people, mared by a few	 assholes, 1 > who are spread rather evenly around the planet.i  L That's a very easy and comfortable perspective for the 'haves' to hold.  TheI 'have-nots' see things markedly differently:  you claim to 'respect' suchnA perspectives without even seeming to have a clue that they exist.i   ...a   As forH > Ralph, he'd be a disaster, but he couldn't be any worse than the other choices.  I Obviously, the reality is that Nader has no chance of winning.  But if hewJ did win, not only would it be virtually impossible for him to be as bad asJ the other choices, but it would send a strong message to the establishmentI that business-as-usual was no longer acceptable to the voters who controlEJ their careers - which should have a significantly salutary effect on their= behavior (at least if they wanted to continue those careers).   F Nader is actually standing for most of the things that the majority ofL Americans want, rather than merely paying lip-service to a few of them whileI taking the corporate shilling on the side.  Unfortunately, most AmericansRL are too used to being led around by the nose by their political parties evenG to know what Nader's positions are, let alone willing to contrast thosem1 positions with those of their party's candidate..v   >u > > comparedH > > with Bush and Kerry he looks like a Washington, Lincoln, or FDR, and whilekJ > > I'm kind of disappointed in Cobb for deferring to the Democrats in theG > > so-called 'unsafe' states I wouldn't mind a strong turnout for him,  either). > >eK > > But more to the point, simply quietly shuffling Bush out of office wheni hisaH > > term has expired in no way adequately addresses his malfeasance.  HeJ > > *should* be impeached, and then tried for war crimes (plus some ratherG > > serious Constitutional violations here at home), not simply retired0 (with I > > generous pension and perpetual Secret Service protection of his sorryL ass).i >r >iL > Bush didn't do it alone.  For that matter Saddam didn't do it alone.  (Ok, so IL > mentioned Iraq, sue me!)  I'm not sure what is appropriate.  I don't think weK > want a world where every 'leading political figure', upon leaving office,o inL > whatever manner, has his actions reviewed and be punished for every action that > some group didn't like.A  G We're not talking about things that people "didn't like", David:  we'reeK talking about prosecutable crimes.  Do you really think that leaders should ' be above prosecution for their actions?0  8   It might lead to such people attempting to never leave	 > office.r  H People attempt not to leave office on a regular basis anyway.  There are7 multiple ways to make them do so when it's appropriate.    >cI > Bush may have convinced congress to go along with some actions.  But het didn'tK > force them.  They each one of them voted on the questions, and regardlesst ofJ > arguments about information available, the responsibility for their vote wast > theirs alone.e  H Indeed, and Kerry's vote and subsequent attempts to weasel around it areL major reasons why I won't consider voting for him (I can tolerate mediocrityF in a candidate if the alternative is much worse, but will not tolerateK active mendacity and blatant placing of self-interest above the good of the 7 country when the alternative is *not* that much worse).-  H However, there's a difference between passing the buck to Bush (possiblyK illegally, and beyond any shadow of a doubt inappropriately) and making the I actual decisions based on that authority.  It's roughly equivalent to the5H difference between letting a whining kid have a gun nominally for targetF practice, even knowing that he's irresponsible, and the kid's shootingL someone with that gun:  contributory negligence rather than blatant assault.  L People like Kerry should pay with their political careers.  Bush and a bunchI of people around him should pay with their lives (or at least life behind < bars, if they're fortunate enough not to be tried in Texas).   ...n  F > Have you considered some of my perspectives?  Can you consider other viewpoints?u  J I always consider other viewpoints.  And consider them again at each pointG in the discussion.  Though I have to admit that until your perspectivesaL become more informed than they currently are, they're pretty easy to dismissJ without excessive soul-searching:  I tend to find people who actually know1 what they're talking about a lot more persuasive.w  K As I've suggested already, it would help if you tried to understand how and I why people might legitimately hold the positions which you're disagreeing7H with, rather than just dismiss them as lefties, terrorists, or whatever.J Because without such discipline in listening you're having difficulty even$ carrying on a coherent conversation.  F But it does take some effort.  And as you've noted, you're a busy guy.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 07:53:31 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regime 3 Message-ID: <OAiZbUy7+u$M@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  J In article <cl7ub9$o11$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:s > In article <SKVnto1hK7ii@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:a > P > So does that mean that any treaty entered into by the US has no legal standingO > as far as the US is concerned and is only binding on the other parties to theh
 > treaty ? > G > If it is legally binding then by most peoples definition it is a law.fM > If it isn't legally binding then the US really is a rogue state since noone > > would be able to trust it in any international negotiations.  E    It has the legal standing granted by the Constituion to treaties.  G    It's a promise to one or more other countries to behave in a certainh(    way.  It can be superceded by US law.  C    Whether or not any treaty is honored is like any other political F    promise.  There's no authority to enforce it other than wanting the,    other side to abide by the same treaty.    M    Countries enter into treaties for mutual benefit, and drop them when they hK    feel it is no longer of mutual benefit, such as when the US dropped the  K    ABM treaty with Russia because the US administration felt that a missle rL    defense system was more important than a cold war with the now gone USSR.H    All Putin got out of it was the favor of a phone call telling him so.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:28:23 -0400 $ From: "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu>' Subject: RE: J F on why USA is a regime-H Message-ID: <957B7AB3AFF9EB4182E46BD96F48B77B02B3ABA3@helium.towson.edu>  F Actually, a matter of interpretation.  Initially, and according to theF Founding Father's intent, the cited constitutional clause was meant toB deny the rights of states to create treaties or abrogate those theD national government had made.  This was a problem with the treaty ofF peace with Britain signed under the Articles of Confederation.  TreatyC law interpreted by the Supreme Court since that time has eroded thedG primacy of the Constitution, but primarily by omission (choosing not to G judicially review a treaty) rather than direct interpretation.  So, foroE all you legal scholars, a treaty *could* be made which would abrogatei? even the Bill of Rights, which would include freedom of speech, H abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, guns.  The Founding Fathers leftH it up to the wisdom of *appointed* legislators to conclude treaties that did not do so. =20  E Be that as it may, would the Senate ratify such a treaty?  Given that-H some groups in this country seek to overturn lawa and make public policyB via court decisions rather than normal democratic processes, it is? conceivable that a Senate stocked with such types and a willingeG Presidency might do so.  There is a wide latitude to the interpretation>G of the Constitutional provisions for the legality of treaties and their F effects on the Bill of Rights.  But right now, a scenario banning free# speech (for example) is reasonable.   G What can be done about this state of affairs--Constitutional amendment,eC asserting the primacy of the Constitution and as such, treaties arerB reviewable by judicial processes.  Right now, the issue is at best fuzzy.  @ For a pretty complete discussion of this issue, send an email toH mailto:protechs2@earthlink.net requesting a copy of "Treaties versus theE Constitution".  Specify pdf or Word doc format.  Fascinating reading,h and scary besides.   Cheers!    Guy Noce Business Services Engineer Office of Technology Servicest Towson Universitya Email:   gnoce@towson.edut =20l9 "I've seen the smile of the Buic Riviera."--Don van Vliete   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:59:16 -0400l* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimee= Message-ID: <3JidnT-YBIXIXercRVn-gg@metrocastcablevision.com>e  / "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu> wrote in messageaB news:957B7AB3AFF9EB4182E46BD96F48B77B02B3ABA3@helium.towson.edu...F Actually, a matter of interpretation.  Initially, and according to theF Founding Father's intent, the cited constitutional clause was meant toB deny the rights of states to create treaties or abrogate those theD national government had made.  This was a problem with the treaty ofF peace with Britain signed under the Articles of Confederation.  TreatyC law interpreted by the Supreme Court since that time has eroded the G primacy of the Constitution, but primarily by omission (choosing not to.G judicially review a treaty) rather than direct interpretation.  So, fornE all you legal scholars, a treaty *could* be made which would abrogater? even the Bill of Rights, which would include freedom of speech, H abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, guns.  The Founding Fathers leftH it up to the wisdom of *appointed* legislators to conclude treaties that did not do so.  B Thanks - I wasn't aware of some of the background.  However, whileK interesting, it does not seem to be relevant to this particular discussion,3? because there is no issue here of a treaty conflicting with thegK Constitution, just the question of whether a ratified.treaty has the statusnC of U.S. law (which the Constitution rather clearly states it does).o   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:49:16 +0000 (UTC)i From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimea) Message-ID: <cl8lps$25g$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>a  j In article <CJKdnW1xlovGMurcRVn-gQ@metrocastcablevision.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >o6 >"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message' >news:4176AA2F.3070006@tsoft-inc.com...f >> Bill Todd wrote:  >>: >> > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message >> >i' >  I have a hard time understanding anytE >> teachings that so throughly disregard the value of the individual.b >tL >In any military endeavor, the value of the individual is measured by his orH >her contribution to the cause, and people who give their lives for suchG >cause are considered heroes by their compatriots, not victims of their B >leaders.  This is true even for conflicts which may be consideredJ >ill-advised like Vietnam or the current abomination in Iraq - i.e., it isL >fully possible to be a hero even when acting in an unworthy cause - and, byK >contrast, those in the military who refuse to subordinate their own safetyr; >to the pursuit of the shared cause are considered cowards.r >f  O There was an interesting program on BBC 2 last night - The Power of Nightmares..r http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/programme.shtml?service_id=4224&FILENAME=20041027/20041027_2100_4224_43282_60  K The series explores the idea that the threat of a terror network is a myth..  M This program concerned the history of both the fundamentalist islamic groups  N and of the neo-conservatives. Both of which can trace their origins to people K who were convinced that the individual freedoms of America were corrupting l society.  L On the neo-conservative side it was interesting to see how all the argumentsJ currently being used were also used against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.F Hyping up of the threat by inventing or misinterpretting intelligence.K Claims that All Terrorist groups were part of a global terrorist conspiracy $ being organised by the Soviet Union.      
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:11:53 +0000 (UTC)h From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimeu) Message-ID: <cl8n49$2hh$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>r  J In article <cl8lps$25g$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:k >In article <CJKdnW1xlovGMurcRVn-gQ@metrocastcablevision.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:: >>7 >>"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message8( >>news:4176AA2F.3070006@tsoft-inc.com... >>> Bill Todd wrote: >>>0; >>> > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagej >>>R >> >CP >There was an interesting program on BBC 2 last night - The Power of Nightmares.s >http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/programme.shtml?service_id=4224&FILENAME=20041027/20041027_2100_4224_43282_60y  > Sorry just realised the above link was for next weeks program. This weeks program is on :-e  r http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/programme.shtml?service_id=4224&filename=20041020/20041020_2100_4224_40078_60    
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >tL >The series explores the idea that the threat of a terror network is a myth. >sN >This program concerned the history of both the fundamentalist islamic groups O >and of the neo-conservatives. Both of which can trace their origins to people  L >who were convinced that the individual freedoms of America were corrupting 	 >society.  > M >On the neo-conservative side it was interesting to see how all the arguments K >currently being used were also used against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.sG >Hyping up of the threat by inventing or misinterpretting intelligence.aL >Claims that All Terrorist groups were part of a global terrorist conspiracy% >being organised by the Soviet Union.r >e >  >  >David Webbw >Security team leader  >CCSS  >Middlesex Universitya   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:05:25 GMTv  From: "ironman" <noname@dot.com>' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimetB Message-ID: <p%Rdd.4716$ta5.2042@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagen7 news:CJKdnW1xlovGMurcRVn-gQ@metrocastcablevision.com...eE > You're the one who's mislead:  the people you're talking about knowe exactly L > what they're doing and why they're doing it, and do it gladly.  Unlike ourI > own military, which is largely full of people who never expected to see-G > actual action and danger, the people you're talking about volunteerede > specifically for it.  D When the volunteers raised their right hands and swore to defend theE constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, when they werenF given basic training in firing weapons and live fire exercises did the> aspect of danger go right over their heads? How besides actual? military action and danger did they think they would defend ther@ Constitution? As lawyers arguing in a court of law? Or in the UN Security Council?g  B No one misled those who believe they would not actually have to goD in harm's way, they misled themselves and the American taxpayers whoC paid their wages and benefits for their years of peacetime service.g   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 12:29:14 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: J F on why USA is a regimec3 Message-ID: <4RU8okntzqnr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <MNKdnfVgKOXQA-rcRVn-uw@metrocastcablevision.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  L > Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shallN > be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made,K > under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of themN > Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in theD > Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.  D    Which establishes the supremacy of the Constitution, federal law,J    and treaties over state and local laws.  It does not establish treatiesE    as superior to the Constituion or federal law.  It also recognizes2I    a difference between the "Laws" and "Treaties" although in then calls [(    both of them "Law" as a generic term.  C    The OP was trying to claim a UN treaty was a higher law and thats(    treaties were no different from laws.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 07:40:44 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o( Subject: Re: JAR files must be stream-lf3 Message-ID: <4nD99W0TuyTV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <4177268E.610D8404@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  D > As the Java run-time is likely written in C, I'd tend to blame the1 > C-RTL, actually, for being in denial about RMS.i  H    One can use the C RTL in many ways.  You have to tell it nasty things(    to get it to screw up like Java does.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 OCT 2004 12:35:47 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)( Subject: Re: JAR files must be stream-lf6 Message-ID: <21OCT04.12354780@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   Bob Koehler wrote:D ->    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool will@ ->    not do that.  So first transfer it in binary, and then use ->  & ->       $set file/attribute=rfm=stmlf  I You can also convert the existing files if you don't want to re-transfer:e  *  $ CONVERT/FDL=SYS$INPUT file.jar file.jar  RECORDs  FORMAT STREAM_LFa	  <CTRL-Z>e   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisont9 --                  karcher.nomorespxm@waisman.wisc.edu  p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:28:12 +0200d! From: Soterro <soterroatyahoocom>s9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exceptiont: Message-ID: <41777294$0$5447$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>  A Funny thing, JAR -xf itself didn't have any problems with record tI oriented jar files, i was able to decompress the classes out of the jar.  8 The problem was when I tried to *run* them from the jar.   Bob Koehler wrote:C >    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool will4 >    not do that.   H As also the others pointed, binary transfer (which I of course did) got A me nice 512 record files. The Zip classes of JRE chocked on that.sC Now this is also a funny situation which is a VMS-only issue, if I MH transfer a binary file aka. bit-by-bit copy, shouldn't I get at the FTP F output the same stream-oriented file? Or why is FTP deciding 'now you I want records' and where is it coming with the RMS attributes from? Or is y 'binary' not a perfect copy?   Sa   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 07:46:51 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception@3 Message-ID: <j2e4tSRF+dZ0@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <41777294$0$5447$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>, Soterro <soterroatyahoocom> writes:C > Funny thing, JAR -xf itself didn't have any problems with record pK > oriented jar files, i was able to decompress the classes out of the jar. r: > The problem was when I tried to *run* them from the jar. >  > Bob Koehler wrote:D >>    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool will >>    not do that. C > J > As also the others pointed, binary transfer (which I of course did) got C > me nice 512 record files. The Zip classes of JRE chocked on that. E > Now this is also a funny situation which is a VMS-only issue, if I eJ > transfer a binary file aka. bit-by-bit copy, shouldn't I get at the FTP H > output the same stream-oriented file? Or why is FTP deciding 'now you K > want records' and where is it coming with the RMS attributes from? Or is   > 'binary' not a perfect copy?  D    The data copy is correct, that's why changing the file attributesB    works (the LF meta-data is in there).  FTP clients on VMS don't@    really know what you want so they create local text files as ?    variable-length records and binary files as 512 byte blocks.z  H    Exactly why Java tools have a heartache with this is something you'ld?    have to ask the Java team about.  The rest of us have alwaysg    wondered.   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 08:24:07 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org9 Subject: Re: Java JAR run across platforms, Zip exception 3 Message-ID: <05eoQfvPBsks@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  ^ In article <41777294$0$5447$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>, Soterro <soterroatyahoocom> writes:C > Funny thing, JAR -xf itself didn't have any problems with record  K > oriented jar files, i was able to decompress the classes out of the jar. t: > The problem was when I tried to *run* them from the jar. >  > Bob Koehler wrote:D >>    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool will >>    not do that. y > J > As also the others pointed, binary transfer (which I of course did) got C > me nice 512 record files. The Zip classes of JRE chocked on that.)E > Now this is also a funny situation which is a VMS-only issue, if I lJ > transfer a binary file aka. bit-by-bit copy, shouldn't I get at the FTP H > output the same stream-oriented file? Or why is FTP deciding 'now you K > want records' and where is it coming with the RMS attributes from? Or is   > 'binary' not a perfect copy?  C RMS attributes are "out of band" information.  The FTP protocol has > no provision for out of band metadata.  It just transfers file( contents in a canonical transfer format.  < In the case of text files, the transfer format is (roughly):   	Convert each line to ASCII  	Put a <CR><LF> between linesCB 	Shove it all down a TCP stream.  End of stream means end of file.  E The sender takes the local text file format and converts to canonicalnH form.  The receiver takes canonical form and converts to local text file format.s  @ In the case of binary files, the transfer format is simpler yet:  4 	Convert the file to a stream of bytes if neccessary> 	Shove it down a TCP stream.  End of stream means end of file.  G The sender ignores file metadata (if any) and shoves file contents down 	 the wire.1  A The receiver gets file contents from the wire and applies generic  metadata if needed.-  D The protocol definition gives no guidance on the conversion process.A In the Unix and Windows world, files are already streams of bytes A without metadata, so it's not an issue.  In the VMS world, thingso
 are trickier.n  = For good or ill, the typical binary file format that VMS file D transfer programs default to when receiving a file is 512 byte fixedC length records with null carriage control.  This is the format that2D VMS .EXE, .OLB and .TLB files are in and it's what all the other VMSG binary file transfer programs default to, so it is a reasonable choice.o  E RMS is smart enough to track end of file down to a byte offset withint/ the last record, so that part is not a problem.>  D If you use RMS to read a stream format file without using block I/O,? you won't get guaranteed data integrity.  (Trailing nulls prior D to the record separator are automatically stripped by RMS when usingB record oriented access to read stream format files).  So stream_lf> is not an optimal choice for a file transfer program to use by default.  C The C RTL is smart enough to evade the RMS restrictions and providen; guaranteed data integrity when reading stream format files.d   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:07:57 +0100 + From: "Tom Wade" <nospam@picard.eurokom.ie>n, Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software2 Message-ID: <NwOdd.39708$Z14.14208@news.indigo.ie>  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messageh% news:2t83nvF1t1choU1@uni-berlin.de...a  - > "It's a poor workman who blames his tools."e  2 "It's a poor tool that encourages bad workmanship"  G > I don't know how to break this too you, but C doesn't have a "string"g > datatype.   J It may not have a datatype called "string" but it has char and char* whichH are used in the manuals (including K&R) to implement what we think of as strings.  : >There is nothing to prevent anyone from doing strings any; >way they please (like, for instance, the UCSD Pascal way).   K My argument is not that you can't write a good program in Cryptic, but thatRI sloppy practices like null terminated strings are encouraged, and are thenL norm.  More to the point, most of the standard RTL calls use this data type.  B > Ye, and long after all this was known newer versions of sendmailD > continued to have this problem.  The reason was apathy and not theA > C programming language.  How long ago was the weakness in "nulli@ > terminated strings" revealed?  Why do we still have them?  Not@ > because of C, but because programmers don't really care.  And,% > apparently neither do their bosses.   H So why do we not see loads of applications written in Fortran, Pascal or= Cobol demonstrating this vulnerability ?  If you thesis about L bad-programmers-make-the-same-mistakes-in-any-language is correct, we shouldH see equal amounts of vulnerabilities there.  And don't try to argue thatJ more apps are written in Cryptic than Cobol or Fortran; when the oppposite; was the case, buffer overflow vulnerabilities were unknown.b  , >No langauge can stop a prgrammer from being  G Agreed.  And people will make sloppy mistakes in any language, but thisuE particular sloppy practice is encouraged by, and largely exclusive to* Cryptic.  L In my opinion Cryptic was one of the three most awful things to crawl out ofH Unix to infect the civilized world (the others being arcane command line) arguments and the case sensitive fetish).,  ? ---------------------------------------------------------------e< Tom Wade             | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie? EuroKom              | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom; / Unit A2              |        a=eirmail400;c=iee/ Nutgrove Office Park | Tel:   +353 (1) 296-9696 / Rathfarnham          | Fax:   +353 (1) 296-9697.< Dublin 14            | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimerC Ireland              | Tip:   "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 06:55:09 -0700c# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> , Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software( Message-ID: <opsf73l70rzgicya@hyrrokkin>  I On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:07:57 +0100, Tom Wade <nospam@picard.eurokom.ie>  n wrote:   >i7 > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messageo' > news:2t83nvF1t1choU1@uni-berlin.de...e >a. >> "It's a poor workman who blames his tools." >s4 > "It's a poor tool that encourages bad workmanship" > H >> I don't know how to break this too you, but C doesn't have a "string" >> datatype. > H > It may not have a datatype called "string" but it has char and char*   > which J > are used in the manuals (including K&R) to implement what we think of as
 > strings.  J actually, char is a misnomer, 'byte' would be more descriptive.  String isD also incorrect.  It may be that some people call this array of bytes= terminated with a null a string, but that doesn't make it so.i > < >> There is nothing to prevent anyone from doing strings any= >> way they please (like, for instance, the UCSD Pascal way).  > J > My argument is not that you can't write a good program in Cryptic, but   > thatK > sloppy practices like null terminated strings are encouraged, and are the J > norm.  More to the point, most of the standard RTL calls use this data   > type.  >lC >> Ye, and long after all this was known newer versions of sendmail E >> continued to have this problem.  The reason was apathy and not theiB >> C programming language.  How long ago was the weakness in "nullA >> terminated strings" revealed?  Why do we still have them?  Not'A >> because of C, but because programmers don't really care.  And,'& >> apparently neither do their bosses. >IJ > So why do we not see loads of applications written in Fortran, Pascal or? > Cobol demonstrating this vulnerability ?  If you thesis about I > bad-programmers-make-the-same-mistakes-in-any-language is correct, we  f > shouldJ > see equal amounts of vulnerabilities there.  And don't try to argue thatD > more apps are written in Cryptic than Cobol or Fortran; when the   > opppositer= > was the case, buffer overflow vulnerabilities were unknown.  > . >> No langauge can stop a prgrammer from being > I > Agreed.  And people will make sloppy mistakes in any language, but this G > particular sloppy practice is encouraged by, and largely exclusive tor
 > Cryptic. >oI > In my opinion Cryptic was one of the three most awful things to crawl  b > out ofJ > Unix to infect the civilized world (the others being arcane command line+ > arguments and the case sensitive fetish).  > A > ---------------------------------------------------------------i> > Tom Wade             | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ieA > EuroKom              | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom; 1 > Unit A2              |        a=eirmail400;c=ie,1 > Nutgrove Office Park | Tel:   +353 (1) 296-9696i1 > Rathfarnham          | Fax:   +353 (1) 296-9697 > > Dublin 14            | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimerE > Ireland              | Tip:   "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"t >h >  >d       -- hC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 12:21:37 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) , Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software3 Message-ID: <fvOeX+hyVVcK@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  ` In article <NwOdd.39708$Z14.14208@news.indigo.ie>, "Tom Wade" <nospam@picard.eurokom.ie> writes: > L > It may not have a datatype called "string" but it has char and char* whichJ > are used in the manuals (including K&R) to implement what we think of as
 > strings.  F    char implements a small integer.  char* implements a pointer.  ThisC    size of the small integer is chosen so as to hold one character.   H    Sure we use them like strings, but they're not.  And thinking of them(    that way leads to programming errors.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Oct 2004 17:24:49 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: Latest on Windoze Navy software+ Message-ID: <2tq9n1F23dtd6U1@uni-berlin.de>a  2 In article <NwOdd.39708$Z14.14208@news.indigo.ie>,. 	"Tom Wade" <nospam@picard.eurokom.ie> writes: > 7 > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in messaget' > news:2t83nvF1t1choU1@uni-berlin.de...d >  > C >> Ye, and long after all this was known newer versions of sendmailhE >> continued to have this problem.  The reason was apathy and not the B >> C programming language.  How long ago was the weakness in "nullA >> terminated strings" revealed?  Why do we still have them?  Not A >> because of C, but because programmers don't really care.  And,t& >> apparently neither do their bosses. > J > So why do we not see loads of applications written in Fortran, Pascal or, > Cobol demonstrating this vulnerability ?    E Well, other than applications I have written myself I have not reallyoE seen many real world applications written in Pascal.  However, I have D seen (and had to troubleshoot and fix) many programs in both Fortran( and COBOL that had out-of-bounds errors.  ? >                                           If you thesis aboutyN > bad-programmers-make-the-same-mistakes-in-any-language is correct, we shouldJ > see equal amounts of vulnerabilities there.  And don't try to argue thatL > more apps are written in Cryptic than Cobol or Fortran; when the oppposite= > was the case, buffer overflow vulnerabilities were unknown.'  B My experiences seem to differ considerably from yours.  Back in my@ UNIVAC days the only problem I saw more often than out-of-boundsB errors were memory allocation errors (but not the kind most people, are used to with the use/mis-use of malloc).   bill e   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:55:12 +0100mO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>l( Subject: Re: OT: Short Article about Sun0 Message-ID: <cl8m53$inu$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Dr. Dweeb wrote: > David Svensson wrote:p > 0 >>"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message* >>news:<K82dnYh-wOJC1ujcRVn-rQ@igs.net>... >>3 >>>...run bigger databases with fancier graphics...  >> >>;) >>H >>This is a bit sad, Sun was the last company who did something on theirF >>own, and did not bought the PC revolution. Now also they are turning >>into being a PC company. >>< >>In a few years, the whole world could run on Linux x86-64.
 >>Not fun. >  > M > Carley's mantra is that in a few years the whole world will run Windoze x86s >   9 Thats the amusing thing, a quick perusal of the customers 5 that HP have won from Sun in their program to migratey8 customers from Solaris to HP reveals that a rather large3 number have in fact chosen to migrate to Windows orr# Linux not HP-UX or any other HP OS.u  4 This is rather like the Digital MS pact being played4 out all over again with Michael Dell standing in the1 wings rubbing his hands (the role taken by Compaqa/ in the Digital MS pact). Dell don't have a cats 2 chance in hell of persuading customers to let them0 run a migration from Solaris to Windows or Linux1 but they do have a wonderfull prospect of picking 1 up the hardware business off HP once HP have doner0 the work and the customer is looking to upgrade.  0 HP are still in no shape to compete with Dell in1 the commodity market and moving Solaris customersr- into the commodity space is only playing intoe Dells hands.   Hugely amusing   regardss Andrew Harrisone3 > I suggest that this prospect is even less fun :-)m >  > Dr. Dweebt >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:43:29 -0400)- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>t% Subject: Re:  OT: why USA is a regime,, Message-ID: <4177E72E.AE824A46@teksavvy.com>   Bill Todd wrote:J > Indeed, and Kerry's vote and subsequent attempts to weasel around it are4 > major reasons why I won't consider voting for him   ( <man, this is tough to resist answering>  M In fairness to that vote, at the time, the "official" purpose, as outlined by K the Bush regime, was to put pressure on Hussein to fully comply with the UNyL resolutions. At that time, Hussein still had some petty stuff left to reveal (paperwork etc).  K However, many around the world saw the writing on the wall that Bush's real L intentions was to go to war and that he'd find a way, any way to justify it.L This is why the initial 1441 proposal, as presented by the USA, had specificM text granting the USA the right to invade. But that proposal did not pass andmM the USA had to replace that text with "serious consequences" which would haveiM required a second resolution to define and enact. And that is the only reason  1441 was adopted unanimously.e  L Bush had bet that Hussein wouldn't cooperate and thus allowed Powel the timeK to try the UN. But when the UN actually worked and Hussein cooperated, BushbN was in a bind. His troups were already massing and his plans for invasion wellJ underway, but because the UN process was working, he knoew he woudln't getN support for a second resolution, and this is why he lost patience and declaredL that he could wait for couple more weeks for the UN to complete its work andK launched his invasion without authorisation fron the UN.  Note that I don'tf- believe and act of war was signed in the USA.     J So it is interesting that the democrats had the perfect out for this: theyK were mislead by Bush into believing that vote was SOLELY to put pressure ontH Hussein to comply with the diplomatic efforts of the UN and give peace aL chance, when the real intentions of the Bush regime was to obtain some carteH blanche to invade Iraq no matter wgat the outcome of the UN process was.  H This would throw the ball back to Bush since he would them be accused of: miselading congress with the true intentions of that vote.  N Yet, the democrats failed to find this argument to defend themselves agianst's0 Bush's accusatios of flip flopping on that vote.  K The Bush regime consistently lied and mislead americans and american media,v7 yet, the democrats stood by like zombies high on drugs.w  M (AS an example, NATO had a meeting to discuss possible need to protect Turkey,N from the mess should the USA go ahead with its invasion. In that NATO meeting,N many NMATO countries supported the concept of defending/helping Turkey against the mess the USA would create.  H However, Bush, on TV, proclaimed that he had now enlisted the support ofG countries such as Canada for his war against Hussein. None of the mediafN challenged him on that, neither did the democrats, even though this was a lie.L Canada supported a NATO resolution to protect Turkey against the USA. It did5 not support a resolution to help the USA invade Iraq.   * There is a long long list of similar lies.  3 It was Jimmy Carter who said it best some time ago:w   	YOU CAN'T LEAD IF YOU MISLEAD..  N The democrats could have destroyed the Bush regime. They could have brought itJ to the supreme court for violating US constitution. They could have workedN hard to remove any credibility it still had. Instead, they flip flopped and/orF stayed silent, giving the Bush regime full brainwashing control of theN american population via the gullible media who are more concerned about havingK any piece of White House propaganda on air first rather than checking facts * before airing some white house propaganda.  J Yet, the democrats feared that by being to strong against the Bush regime,K they would further polarize the nation and make winning and votes from soft  republicans impossible.a  H The montreal newspaper reports today that a texas newspaper has receivedM threats, has had its advertising pulled by many local companies, local storeshJ refusing to carry that newspaper etc simply because it passed an editorial* that was negative against the bush regime.  M (and this is not to dissimilar to the fgemaler signers from texas whose songshJ were essentially banned from Texas radio stations when they annoucned they( were against the Bush invasion of Iraq).  M Anytime you have a large segment of the population who refuses to believe the J big mitakes made by a government, it generates a very dangerous situation.  M Germans refused to believe international accusations that they own government.N was committing genocide on jews. How could such a civilised government do suchM a thing ? They believed their own government's speeches that stated that jewsnN were being recruited to work on new factories to help Germany win the war. TheF shame of what germans allowed their government to do has come to haunt$ generations of germans, to this day.  H Look at how americans refuse to even consider the evidence that the BushK regime has violated the USA constitution. Even the supreme court has statedpN such when it ruled that the kidnapped victims held at Gantanamo had a right toF some legal process. Yet, the republicans prefer to ignore this extremeH violation of human rights, prefering not to believe it is happening even inside the USA.i  M The americans refuse to consider that the Bush regime has resulted in the USAhK having lost an/all credibility with its so called intelligence. So when the G USA accuses Iran of developing nukes, since the USA can provide no hard O evidence (even faked evidence as it did for Iraq), nobody takes them seriously.G  M Sudan argued succesfully to the UN that the USA should not be allowed to sendiK troups to africa since they would create a mess as big as they did in Iraq.iM The unfortunate side effect is that other western counries such as Canada and K France are prevented from sending peace keepers to complement the few northr) african peacekeepers that Sudan accepted.h  J Americans think that the USA is the world police. It is not. It is not theM only superpower in the world. It economic dominance is fading with europe andfK china rising fast. Americans don't seem to realise that this isn't the coldnF war with missiles and armies. It is a contest of economic muscle whereG economies compete to see who can be most efficient at building widgets.i  L And it is amazing that republicans are completely blind to the fact that theK Bush regime has turned a very hard earned balanced budget with surplus intogK massive record deficits, and still have the guts to accuse the democrats ofi+ having irresponsible promises for spending.U  M In fact, the way it looks from outside the USA, half the USA population is sovN brainwashed into voting republican, that it doesn't matter who they put as the' president, as long as he is republican.l  M And it is further even more amazing that Bush has succesfully create an imagenM that he is a leader (in fact better image than Kerry's) when it is well knownwM that he is just a puppet controlled by Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz. It is thosedL last three who should be explaining to americans what they intend Bush to do in the next 4 years.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:09:39 -0400 $ From: "Noce, Guy" <gnoce@towson.edu>$ Subject: RE: OT: why USA is a regimeH Message-ID: <957B7AB3AFF9EB4182E46BD96F48B77B01A87FF8@helium.towson.edu>  F Since we are positing conspiracy theories, "Bush's real intention" wasD to impoverish French and other foreign diplomats and companies doingH illegal business with the sadistic Hussein regime.  That's the way I see it.t   Guy Noce Business Services Engineer Office of Technology Services  Towson Universityr Email:   gnoce@towson.edug =20wD "University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."--Henry A. Kissinger    ------------------------------   Date: 21 Oct 2004 06:03:13 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>$ Subject: Re: pthreads and scheduling? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-MvFfTDfg3qpK@dave2_os2.home.ours>h  2 On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:45:30 UTC, "Johan Nilsson" ) <johan.nilsson@---.esrange.ssc.se> wrote:s   > E > "Johan Nilsson" <johan.nilsson@---.esrange.ssc.se> wrote in messageU4 > news:1098167943.r3DpxkQ0sclGwSHJRhH5ow@teranews... > >eA > > "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> wrote in messagec= > > news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-r1etuI6GdCNE@dave2_os2.home.ours...u7 > > > On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:35:34 UTC, "Johan Nilsson"p/ > > > <johan.nilsson@---.esrange.ssc.se> wrote:o > > >V > > > > Hi,t > > > >oJ > > > > I'm having trouble figuring out how the thread scheduling actuallyI > > > > behaves/should behave under OpenVMS Alpha (7.3-1). Here's a brief.3 > > > > description of the application in question:v > > > >i > >m > > [details snipped]  > >  > > > > N > > > > Using the following thread priorities/policies the main thread _never_N > > > > returns from the $waitfr system call (I know the event flag is getting	 > > set):d > > > >r3 > > > > 1. Main thread runs at SCHED_RR, PRI_RR_MIN N > > > > 2. I/O thread runs at SCHED_RR, PRI_RR_MIN+((PRI_RR_MAX-PRI_RR_MIN)/2); > > > > 3. Logging thread runs at SCHED_OTHER+PRI_OTHER_MINi > > > > K > > > > I tried to set the main thread to SCHED_RR,PRI_RR_MAX: but then thee > I/OsI > > > > thread _never_ runs, even as the main thread simply waits for the  > common! > > > > event flag to become set.s > > >b? > > > That's consistent with it (main) never giving up control.r > >sL > > Calling $waitfr should suspend the calling thread until the flag is set,  > > thus giving up control - or? > M > Talkin to myself, but I just found the following in the "Guide to the POSIX0 > Threads Library", B.12.8:h >  > --- Note ---G > If a thread calls a system service that uses a common event flag, thenN > calling thread's virtual processor blocks until the wait is satisfied. (ThatJ > is, no upcall is made to the OpenVMS kernel to schedule another thread.)J > On a uniprocessor, such a system service call will most likely cause all" > threads in the process to block. > ------ > L > Which explains what's happening in the second case. It doesn't explain whyN > running the main and I/O threads at SCHED_RR as in the first case causes the9 > main thread to _never_ return from the $waitfr, though.a > L > Looking at the note above though, it should lock up the entire applicationG > as well as soon as it (the main thread) calls into $waitfr - but that-I > doesn't seem to happen. Could it possibly be so that the main thread is M > never scheduled until the I/O thread wakes up - doesn't seem likely as this K > behaviour occurs even with no incoming data - weird. Maybe it's the "mosta$ > likely" part that isn't satisfied. > 
 > // Johan  F I read the passage yesterday and it makes sense. UPCALLS apply to the C kernel's ability resolve 'waits' bewteen threads. In the 'problem' sC case it has to resolve an across-(VMS)process wait/block scenario.  B Hoff might describe that as 'interesting'. I can imagine that the D passage describes the 'worst-case' scenario and that the programmer C should design a solution with that in mind. I read it such that it aF describes the situation before UPCALLS were introduced. i.e. a processB WAIT condition was just that, i.e. the _process_ went into a wait C state, even if another thread could run, and nothing then happened pC until the process/thread scheduler was triggered again by the next 0E time-slice allocation. This would explain why your other threads get y some CPU time.    F Anyway, it struck me that if you change your process interface to use E $READEF, then you can have your main sleep for an appropriate period oF of time , wake-up, read the relevant event flag cluster, check whetherC it's time to close down and act accordingly. The sleep can be done m> with a Pthread timed wait, preferable before upcalls, or  VMS  scheduled  wake-up.i  D You may already have another solution. That's VMS. There's always a " number of ways to crack a problem    -- p Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:31:28 +0200i8 From: "Johan Nilsson" <johan.nilsson@---.esrange.ssc.se>$ Subject: Re: pthreads and scheduling8 Message-ID: <1098354683.V72SgdWmhiQj8DPNDkzx/Q@teranews>  = "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> wrote in messageh9 news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-MvFfTDfg3qpK@dave2_os2.home.ours...o3 > On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:45:30 UTC, "Johan Nilsson"-+ > <johan.nilsson@---.esrange.ssc.se> wrote:a >l   [snip]   >lG > I read the passage yesterday and it makes sense. UPCALLS apply to theRD > kernel's ability resolve 'waits' bewteen threads. In the 'problem'D > case it has to resolve an across-(VMS)process wait/block scenario.C > Hoff might describe that as 'interesting'. I can imagine that theyE > passage describes the 'worst-case' scenario and that the programmeraD > should design a solution with that in mind. I read it such that itH > describes the situation before UPCALLS were introduced. i.e. a processC > WAIT condition was just that, i.e. the _process_ went into a wait,D > state, even if another thread could run, and nothing then happenedD > until the process/thread scheduler was triggered again by the nextF > time-slice allocation. This would explain why your other threads get > some CPU time.  K To be honest, I'm not equally sure that it makes sense ... at least not foroH me. If the I/O thread is not saturating the CPU (and it is not) then theH main thread should get some time pretty quick - and as soon as it entersJ $waitfr on the common event flag everything else "should" hang. Or is thatL only if the entering thread has equal or higher priority than the others ... or ...  F It sure would be nice to have a deeper explanation on the internals ofF thread scheduling under VMS + interaction with process scheduling. I'mI curious as to why the usage of a common event flag is an exception to theeG otherwise good thread implementation (i.e. when upcalls are enabled). ItL recall reading "VAX/VMS internals and data structures" (or similar) sometime at version 5.<something>.   8 Are there any recent good VMS internals books available?   >hG > Anyway, it struck me that if you change your process interface to usenF > $READEF, then you can have your main sleep for an appropriate periodH > of time , wake-up, read the relevant event flag cluster, check whetherD > it's time to close down and act accordingly. The sleep can be done? > with a Pthread timed wait, preferable before upcalls, or  VMS  > scheduled  wake-up.d  F Did that (almost); now using a maximum wait for read I/O to complete +K always check the event flag when the wait returns using $readef. I normallyeB detest polling, but couldn't see any other way around the problem.  ! Thanks for the suggestion though.-   // Johan   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 09:08:16 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptorsn3 Message-ID: <JtQ5p9dBMTsE@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  Q In article <417548E8.E5B8CC1D@adldata.com>, sol gongola <sol@adldata.com> writes:   D > Descriptors are not "The Solution" to the problem. They are a way D > to manage a program. Languages that supported strings worked fine C > before DEC had descriptors. Even null terminated strings are not kB > the problem. The problem is in the coding practice where simple E > checks are not being performed to prevent undesirable data overlaysj) > including buffer overrun type problems.g  B The problem is people with computers who are unwilling to automateA mundane tasks.  There have been languages with support for takingi? care of string length details (Pascal, PL/I, Ada -- in order ofuB participation of proponents in this discussion :-) for years.  ButB some people insist on "bare-metal" programming in C-like languagesB for no good public reasons (but possibly good private reasons like& a cost-overrun payment on a contract).   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Oct 2004 09:10:38 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptors23 Message-ID: <m3PcGq0MBiO+@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  W In article <41753908.6080304@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:$  Q > I've heard, somewhere in the past, that when re-setting the value of a dynamic rS > string, that if the new data is larger, then the existing memory is released and  Q > a new block of memory of sufficient size is acquired.  If smaller, the size of  S > the data is set and the rest of the memory ignored.  I'm guessing that if that's tQ > so, that the memory would be in a location that is all released when the image oH > is run down.  Still, a long running program would be 'leaking' memory.  F It should be returning it to the available pool managed by LIB$GET_VM.B When enough adjacent small fragments are available, they magically- become a larger fragment, suitable for reuse.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:23:44 +0200t1 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?=?- Subject: Samba 2.2.8 for OpenVMS, new releasee7 Message-ID: <4177d48d$0$31749$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>.  @ A new release of Samba 2.2.8 for OpenVMS has just been released.I Download and information from http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org/anonymous/jyc/g    P This port is actively maintained by Jean-Yves COLLOT and some others volunteers.    
 Jean-Franoisu   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:01:21 GMTt3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)t2 Subject: Re: SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE logical not defined/ Message-ID: <RiPdd.1322$mb.63@news.cpqcorp.net>   1 In article <newscache$1tkw5i$zmz$1@news.sil.at>, r8 peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) writes:  ? >So, you saw a reboot causing the lost of the timezone logical.cB >Now ask yourself why a boot didn't set it and consider installingD >the equivalent of VMS732_TDF for V7.3 (or upgrade to V7.3-2 before)    Did I miss-understand something?  ? I thought the reboot apparently restored the lost logical name.e   --  J       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USAF           (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:02:41 +0200w: From: "Alexandre Mongin" <NOSPAM_alexandre.mongin@csgv.fr>+ Subject: Re: SYSUAF => export passwords ??? * Message-ID: <cl8c1g$54o$1@news.tiscali.fr>   GREAT !!!!!  it really works wonderful...  K I tried it and experimented it on many accounts, transferring the pwds from-I a first machine onto a second one. Everything's ok with your new compiledg
 executable...e   Still thanks a lot !   Alexandre M.  J > Seems to be the way it's opening and closing sys$command in order to get > the nodename.17 > I've edited the source and recompiled to remove that.eJ > Try downloading it from ftp://ftp.mdx.ac.uk/vms/transfer_pwd_to_node.exe6 > and ftp://ftp.mdx.ac.uk/vms/transfer_pwd_to_node.bas >p$ > That version should then work with > ' > $ CMD = "$TOOLS:TRANSFER_PWD_TO_NODE"o > $ CMD. > NODE:: > USER1  > USER2> >  > % > Give it a try and see if that works L > (no guarantees but I can't see why it's explicitly opening sys$command for thet > nodename in the first place).o >  >e > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Oct 2004 06:03:15 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>5 Subject: Re: Well OT - Re: J F on why USA is a regimee? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dRfp5MhWL7QU@dave2_os2.home.ours>r  " On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:44:28 UTC, < koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  v > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-mirXNGsxnx6j@dave2_os2.home.ours>, "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes: >  > > AlanH > >           please remember that Germany was a democracy before WWII. A > > Adolf Hitler came to power as a result of a general election.e > J >    No, he did not.  Hitler never won more than 20% of a free, open vote.K >    He came to power because the then head of state (Bismark?) put him in oG >    a place where he thought he could be controlled.  Then the head ofoG >    state died and Hitler consolidated his own power as head of state.:  3 Isn't that what I said? I never used the word won !y  = (I think you mean Hindenberg, Bismarck was dead by then IIRC)    -- e Cheers - Dave W.  
 Sorry again.     ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:00:03 GMTe4 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>& Subject: Re: What happened with SEVMS?0 Message-ID: <72Rdd.1338$6m.844@news.cpqcorp.net>  G SEVMS is on-the-shelf and would need to be dusted off and re-certified. H Turns out that in practice, few people really wanted to actually *use* aL system with things like manditory controls - so SEVMS wasn't kept up-to-dateK on new VMS versions for lack of a consumer - I think you need to go back torL V6.1.  It's getting a revival these days in large part by Sun - who has beenI very sucessful in pushing through standards requirements in an attempt to H make themselves the only ones who can pass them initially.  In practice,I once other vendors do the work to match the standard - they discover thatlE nobody uses the features, or that the standard itself is depreciated.   L There is a huge need in the military for higher security, but I believe thatK there will be an evolution of the actual standards to something that better $ matches the in-use needs of systems.    ? "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message % news:4177273C.546FA5EA@comcast.net...e > John Smith wrote:S
 > > [snip] >n > "What happened with SEVMS?"e >t > Doesn't run on IA32. >t > What more needs to be said?- >- > -- - > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems4 > http://www.djesys.com/ >W+ > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page::$ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ >-* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d >w > Coming soon:# > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:31:49 +0200h! From: Soterro <soterroatyahoocom> 3 Subject: Re: Yahoo: OpenVMS Jobs = Bangalore, India : Message-ID: <4177736d$0$5447$4d4ef98e@read.news.ch.uu.net>   Tom Linden wrote:iI > You misread the job spec, this is for HP-UX/Linux, look at the tool sete > skills required.  D I actually read it the way that they don't even dream about getting G somebody which knows VMS, so they ask for experience in tools on Linux aI etc then willingness to adapt to a new OS (aka VMS, you know, that brand l new OS)t   Sl   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.585 ************************