1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 24 Oct 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 590       Contents: A couple simplistic COV Stats % ANN: VTfm and HINDEX freeware updates % Re: DS10L SCSI card - recommendations  Intel changes direction in 2004 # Re: Intel changes direction in 2004 # Re: Intel changes direction in 2004  Re: JAR files must be stream-lf * Re: OpenVMS 7.3 Install Questions/Problems Re: OT: why USA is a regime  Re: Question about DescriptorsF VTfm - OpenVMS file manager. New release 2.2-8 (last in this October). Re: What happened with SEVMS?  Re: What happened with SEVMS?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:01:51 +0200 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>& Subject: A couple simplistic COV StatsB Message-ID: <417ae2e3$0$22606$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>  < A Google Search for "VMS" or "NEWBIE" in COMP.OS.VMS by Year    # _Year_        _VMS_        _NEWBIE_  1986        no matches! 1987            3,910           0 ! 1988            4,180           0 ! 1989            7,620           0 ! 1990           12,000           2 ! 1991           11,900           2 ! 1992           13,200           3 ! 1993           14,100          47 ! 1994           15,300          75 ! 1995           16,800          88 ! 1996           18,800         110 ! 1997           21,900         232 ! 1998           26,500         219 ! 1999           35,100         408 ! 2000           48,300         237 ! 2001           86,300         310 ! 2002          416,000         369 ! 2003            8,560         318 ! 2004 to date   51,400         165   G Please note these are non-scientific statistics with many uncontrolled   variables and "unknowns".   D The existence of only 2 postings with the word NEWBIE in 1988 (0 in H 1987) for all Google Groups would seem to indicate that the label first @ began to be used in 1988. Wide use of the label appears to have  developed several years later.  ! Some other potential Variables...   3     - Postings are being counted here, not threads.   :     - There exist potentially many more alternative forumsG       to discuss VMS today than just a couple years ago. I am currently A       aware of 29 VMS specific forums, most of which are not more        than 5 years old.   I     - COV postings and posters have never necessarily been representative @       of the entire VMS Community, it's a segment of the OpenVMSG       Community which knows about and chooses to participate in the COV I       Forum. The number and consistency of lurkers can only be speculated H       about. I was a lurker myself several years before participating inH       COV. The attitude, quality and interests of the COV community haveH       potentially changed over time, and thus affecting participation in7       the forum independent of VMS community interests.      Cheers!    Keith Cayemberg    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:38:20 -0500 - From: Hunter Goatley <goathunter@goatley.com> . Subject: ANN: VTfm and HINDEX freeware updates* Message-ID: <417AEB6C.8080809@goatley.com>  4 The following freeware packages have been updated in my freeware archive:  	    - VTfm   8      A Norton Commander-style file and directory manager9      for VT terminals.  This version adds quite a few new 1      features to the previous release.  Thanks to 9      Vladimir K. Vershinin.  VTfm runs on VAX, Alpha, and 
      IA64.       - HINDEX  8       HINDEX search OpenVMS HELP libraries for keywords.:       Thanks to Mike Duffy.  This version includes changes8       to compile and run on OpenVMS IA64, in addition to       VAX and Alpha.   http://www.process.com/openvms/   4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/vtfm.zip9 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/vtfm.zip 6 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/hindex.zip; http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/hindex.zip   0 ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/vtfm.zip5 http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/vtfm.zip 2 ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/hindex.zip7 http://www.tmk.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/hindex.zip    And on the other mirrors soon.     Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/ ; <goathunter@GOATLEY.COM>     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:18:08 -0400 % From: "DAVID TURNER" <DAVID@HPAQ.NET> . Subject: Re: DS10L SCSI card - recommendations0 Message-ID: <10nleptg9ddtmd6@news.supernews.com>  < WE SELL AND MAINTAIN ALL PARTS AND OPTIONS FOR DS10L SYSTEMS dt   --   Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 180  Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com     7 "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com> wrote in message & news:41753913$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...= > how about going to the supported options page for the ds10l L > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/options/asds10l/asds10l_options.htmlJ > search for 'storage: Adapter - SCSI' in the subcatagory list and you get > this:  >  > I >       AlphaServer DS10L Supported Options List Minimum Operating System 	 > Version  >       VMS UNIX LINUX8 >       Part No. Description Rst Ver Max Ver Max Ver Max  >        Storage: Adapter - SCSIH >       3X-KZPBA-CC PCI-X TO SCSI UWD (FAST20 DIFFERENTIAL) ADAPTER  Yes 7.2-1  > 1 4.0F 1 SPT CD I >       3X-KZPCA-AA MODULE, ADAPTER, ULTRA 2(LVD), 1 CHANNEL  Yes 7.2-1 1  4.0F
 > 1 SPT CDL >       3X-KZPEA-DB LVD Multimode U3 PCI SCSI Adapter, 2 Channel, VHDCI  Yes > 7.2-2 1 5.1 1 N/S 0 I >       KZPBA-CA SINGLE CHNL. PCI TO ULTRASCSI ADAPTER, UWSE  Yes 7.2-1 1  4.0F
 > 1 SPT CD >       KZPBA-CBG >       (400577-001) PCI TO SCSI UWD (FAST20 DIFFERENTIAL) ADAPTER  Yes  7.2-1  > 1 4.0F 1 SPT CD K >       SN-KZPBA-CA QLOGIC PCI TO FASTWIDE SCSI HOST BUS ADAPTER  Yes 7.2-1  1  > 4.0F 1 SPT CD  >  >  >  >  >  >  > 0 > "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> wrote in message) > news:4170928a@duster.adelaide.on.net... I > > Rather than using IDE (perhaps slow as in an earlier thread), could I  haveG > > recommendations for a SCSI card for a 36/72Gb disk - third party if 
 > possibleF > > as I want to get one in the next day or so and can't access "real" Compaq > > cards.  Adaptec? > > 
 > > Thanks > >  > >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:58:23 -0400 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> ( Subject: Intel changes direction in 2004; Message-ID: <5Rxed.36988$J16.2267422@news20.bellglobal.com>   J I'm sure everyone has already heard the news about Intel deciding to delayH production of the 4-MHz P4 but I was under the impression that this nextI speed limit would probably be delayed until 2005 or just released as a P5 H product. However, the November 2004 issue of Scientific American articleJ titled "A Split at the Core" states some of these Intel projects have beenG permanently cancelled with several years of work discarded. Rather than H improving the processor core, they will simply add more cores. (as other  vendors are also planning to do)  
 Intel Quotes:   C 1. "We [were] on the wrong side of a square law; It [was] taking an J exponential increase in transistors - and dramatic increases in the amountK of power and chip area - to get even a modest increase in instruction-level  parallelism"  J 2. "The basic idea is to run them slower [than the single cores in today's7 processors] and make them simpler but use more of them"    * * * * * * * * * *   B I know there is a big difference between "a multicore CPU" and SMPH (symmetric multi-processing) but reading this article made me wonder howH much of this change in direction at Intel was due to the influx of AlphaJ engineers. Anyone who has used multiple CPUs with OpenVMS on either VAX orL Alpha knows that OpenVMS engineering has already solved many of the hardwareH and software issues related to many CPUs. So maybe Intel's vision of theL future may be a variation of an 32-CPU AlphaServer-1280 but implemented with8 an equivalent number of P4-cores rather than Alpha CPUs.   Links from the article: < http://download.intel.com/labs/nextnet/download/tera_era.pdf2 http://public.itrs.net/files/2003itrs/home2003.htm  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:16:33 -0700 * From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>, Subject: Re: Intel changes direction in 20042 Message-ID: <iKqdndVYcbS_IefcRVn-2A@mpowercom.net>  5 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message  5 news:5Rxed.36988$J16.2267422@news20.bellglobal.com... L > I'm sure everyone has already heard the news about Intel deciding to delayJ > production of the 4-MHz P4 but I was under the impression that this nextK > speed limit would probably be delayed until 2005 or just released as a P5 J > product. However, the November 2004 issue of Scientific American articleL > titled "A Split at the Core" states some of these Intel projects have been= > permanently cancelled with several years of work discarded.  > L Intel has as much as admitted the P4 design was chosen for marketing rather C than technical advantages.  The marketing department demanded high  E frequencies, and pitched it vigorously as the benchmark of processor  B performance.  The engineering dept. has been able to overcome the H inefficiencies of the design by moving the process into multi-gigahertz K ranges, but as your quotes point out it was trading short term gains for a  L long term dead end.  The P4 has hit the heat/performance wall, the only way H to go now is multi-processing or liquid cooling.  Since the competition M isn't liquid cooled and there's no indication the market would accept such a  M radical departure Intel has two paths left:  multi-core P4s and improvements  . to the P3M (what they call centrino now) core. > D > I know there is a big difference between "a multicore CPU" and SMP > (symmetric multi-processing) > L The difference is that a multi-core doesn't have the interconnect delays of J SMP.  There are still some big differences in how multi-core is designed. L AMD has an advantage in using the Alpha Hypertransport design, which scales K nicely to 4/8 way cores, especially with the separate memory buses.  Intel  M has stuck (so far) with the shared bus on their dual CPU P3/P4 systems, with  M indications the dual core CPUs will follow the same philosophy.  This design  J scales poorly so I would expect Intel to either switch to some alpha-like 6 hypertransport, or brute force it with very fast FSBs. >   > So maybe Intel's vision of theJ > future may be a variation of an 32-CPU AlphaServer-1280 but implemented  > with: > an equivalent number of P4-cores rather than Alpha CPUs. > H That seems to be a general industry trend: scale out instead of up with L multicore multichip from AMD, Intel, Sun and IBM.  Of course Intel's vision L is of massive SMP with Itaniums, but that's looking less and less likely to J happen.  My guess would be a 32 CPU box with multi-core P3Ms, not P4s, to M avoid a "China Syndrome" with the overheating P4s melting through the earth.  L 32 P4's would dissipate something around 4 or 5 KiloWatts?  It would make a , nice boiler for the hot water in a building.  H AMD still has a substantial design lead though, a year or more ahead of M Intel, so I'd expect to see the 64 bit K9 multi-cores out first.  And IBM is  G still the frontrunner in delivering multi-core systems.  As for a 1280  I replacement for VMS, the only hope is that Intel will continue to absorb  6 Itanium losses and go forward with the dual core chip.   Jack Peacock   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:52:24 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> , Subject: Re: Intel changes direction in 2004, Message-ID: <417AE0A4.D2B049D3@teksavvy.com>   Jack Peacock wrote: I > AMD still has a substantial design lead though, a year or more ahead of N > Intel, so I'd expect to see the 64 bit K9 multi-cores out first.  And IBM isH > still the frontrunner in delivering multi-core systems.  As for a 1280J > replacement for VMS, the only hope is that Intel will continue to absorb8 > Itanium losses and go forward with the dual core chip.  K When IA64 didn't pan out, Intel was able to compensate with huge cache. The I 8086 still has that avenue it could follow. Since IA64 and Intel-8086 and L AMD-8086 are getting dual cores, the addition of dual core won't give anyoneL an edge. The edge might come when one of the 3 gets a coherent cache (single4 cache shared by both cores) which Power already has.  K Microsoft recently announced that it would view dual core chips as a single M CPU from the point of view of licensing. So it seems that dual core is poised K to become industry standard high volume for the 8086. And if proprietary OS A retain their "per core" licencing, it might give Windows an edge.   N My gut tells me that the recent decision was economic. Intel probably realisedN that yields for 4HZ would be significantly less and thus, dual core chip mightK give a more profitable/competitive product from a cost/price point fo view.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:07:25 -0400 " From: Glenn Everhart <gce@gce.com>( Subject: Re: JAR files must be stream-lf& Message-ID: <417AB9FD.1050408@gce.com>  > I use the FILE utility to bash the file to lfstream as needed.  B Reading lfstream and reading fixed-512 give different stuff if anyD of the reading code tries to interpret end of block as end of recordG and acts as though a LF or a CRLF had been seen. Also if reading stream G and you get a record longer than 32K bytes, read tends to fail. Reading E fixed 512 will never do that to you, but it is sometimes important to F ensure it has no implied carriage control. A completely unix-like modeE is unfortunately not present unless it has been added recently enough  I haven't seen it.   Glenn Everhart   Daniel Gustafsson wrote:  C > "Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in message 2 > news:21OCT04.12354780@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu... >  >>Bob Koehler wrote:F >>->    jar files on VMS must be stream-lf format.  Your FTP tool willB >>->    not do that.  So first transfer it in binary, and then use >>->( >>->       $set file/attribute=rfm=stmlf >>K >>You can also convert the existing files if you don't want to re-transfer:  >>, >> $ CONVERT/FDL=SYS$INPUT file.jar file.jar	 >> RECORD  >> FORMAT STREAM_LF  >> <CTRL-Z>  >  > F > Isn't that a destructive method in this case? CONVERT may change theL > contents of the file, while SET FILE /ATTR does not touch the contents and( > only change the meta-data of the file. >  > -- > Daniel Gustafsson  > http://developer.mimer.se  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:04:42 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>3 Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3 Install Questions/Problems * Message-ID: <417B37EA.30009@tsoft-inc.com>    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:  W > In article <zXled.173752$He1.16438@attbi_s01>, John Hixson <john@divinix.org> writes:  > F >>  I just bought an alpha 433au workstaiton, and compaq openvms 7.3. G >>After trying to boot the install CD, it would only print out "Compaq  F >>OpenVMS 7.3" and then proceed to give errors. I RTFM'ed and came to H >>discover that the toshiba cd-rom my workstaion has uses the Intel SIO   >>chipset and can't boot off it. >> > L > That's odd, but not uncommon. My PWS433au has exactly the same problem ;-) >  > > >>                              I now would like to know what G >>alternatives I have. I do not have a SCSI CD-ROM or the money for it   >>currently.    / $10 on e-bay is pretty hard to call 'too much'.     7 > And it would also not immediately solve your problem. G > Because the ISP1020 SCSI controller in the PWS doesn't drive internal I > and external SCSI bus on the same time and so would need to connect the 1 > SCSI-ROM internally which might be a challenge.     K au implies that the devices support VMS.  At least that's my understanding.     M > Alternatively you need a SCSI CD-ROM with its own SCSI Controller PCI card.  > F > Interestingly I hadn't known this previously and did connect a RRD42I > externally for the initial installation (many years back in my previous G > company) and it worked ! Years later I tried the same and was unable. H > And then I was told here that it can't work. So my first try must haveF > been coincident with cable lengths, drives internally (which haven't> > changed AFAICR) and external cable pinout/length/terminator. >  >    > Your options are > N > *) Infoserver (a [crippled] VAX Hardware with special Blocklevel Server S/W)5 > *) Alpha VMScluster Bootserver (borrowed somewhere) J > *) VAX VMScluster Bootserver with an extra Alpha Systemdisk (means CrossA > 	Architecture Boot/Config, not supported, not easy, but doable) 0 > *) SCSI CD Player (with extra SCSI controller)I > *) maybe a blocklevel copy (with U**X) of the VMS CD to a SCSI disk and < > 	then boot from this disk to install on another SCSI disk.    N Add another option.  Build VMS on another computer, then move the disk to the = 433au.  Regardless, a CD drive will be useful multiple times.      Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:50:44 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>$ Subject: Re: OT: why USA is a regime, Message-ID: <417B34A4.9070101@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:    > David Froble wrote:   F > No, the UN has often gotten involved against the wishes of the localM > government and/or factions. It can do so with a security council resolution N > which is legally binding on the target nation. It is legally binding becauseN > when a nation joins the UN, it ratifies the UN charter making it its own law > of the land.    J I'd have to observe at this point that if the UN did decided to go into a N country that hadn't joined the UN, or agreed to the above, they'd do so.  You M may disagree, but in this I think my judgement of human nature would be more  	 accurate.     N > Of course, when a country uses its veto in the security council, it preventsM > the UN from passing any legally binding resolutions. General assembly votes 8 > are just a show of opinion and have no legal standing. >  > Q >>That didn't stop the atrocities.  His sons literally got away with murder.  And 1 >>much else.  I doubt such stopped with his sons.  >> > N > The UN's mandate in Iraq prior to the USA invasion was not to teach Saddam's > sons about morality.    P You pass off many people tortured and killed with such ease.  Yet let the US do ? any slight thing, and you're on them.  You're a real hypocrite!   : > There were scientists to look for and ensure destructionJ > of any banned weapons. There were humanitarian helpers to bring food andO > medecine to the people.  The deal in 1991 was that Saddam could stay in power O > in exchange for destroying banned weapons and allowing UN inspectors to audit E > this process. So Saddam's past crimes were more or less pardonned.      P That's a stretch!  A very large one.  Not forcing him from power, and pardoning P his crimes, are two very different things.  It's in ways like this that you try  to sound so rational.     P > Hussein refused Oil-For-Food in 1991 and waited until the country was in ruinsN > before agreeing to OFF in 1998 with the programme actually starting in 1999. > K > One would have to read the actual deal which allowed Hussein to remain in P > power in 1991 before knowing why the UN didn't pursue Hussein and Sons for warN > crimes, or if there was some date after which they could be pursued for such= > crimes. (are there statutes of limitation ? I am not sure).  > F > Perhaps Hussein knew he was safe from prosecution as long as the WMDL > disarmement process wasn't declared complete by the UN inspectors. Perhaps > something else.  >  > R >>That isn't reason to overlook atrocities.  Weren't you the one complaining aboutP >>torture and such?  Do you only complain about select events?  Are you blind to- >>things that don't fit what you want to say?  >> > N > I am not blind to what Hussein and Sons have done. They deserve prosecution.O > But the sons deAD so they'll never get the public prosecution they deserved.      8 And you seem to feel that that would be worse than dead?  M >>Iraq isn't the main issue.  With what he's done internally within the US, I - >>cannot believe Bush has any chance at all.   >> > P > Polls still give him equal to a slight edge. So essentially another year 2000.N > Those people committed to Bush are so committed that they refuse to read any1 > information they fear might change their mind.   > N > Foreign media have interviewed many "regular" americans in various places inL > the USA and many are really really convinced that Iraq was responsible forI > terrorism acts in the USA etc.  And they are convinced that the current G > resistance in Iraq is not from local Iraqis, but from foreign AlQaeda ) > operatives wishing to attack americans.     O Just because you say something doesn't make it so.  Based upon your record, it   might indicate the opposite.  P As for human intellegence, about 15 years ago large parts of the US midwest had M extensive flooding.  A poll at the time found that 20%, one in five, thought  P that it was God punishing us/them for some obscure reason, or no reason at all. O   A minimum of one in five with their fingernails dug into the cave walls, and  N casting grave doubt on such a thing as human intellegence.  You expect better  from current polls?   N I think that of the people who actually vote, many will vote against Bush, as P opposed to 'for' Kerry.  It won't be for all the reasons you're frothing about. O   It will be because they're terrified of his assult on personal freedom.  Not  O sure Kerry will be much better, but at least he won't already be on the ground  : running, it will be some time before he comes up to speed.    P > The polarisation of Americans is such that in the end, it is the votes of someO > 500 peoplein some key state that will define the next 4 years not only in the L > USA but all acorss the globe because the current government has decided toN > extend its political/military boundaries to encompass any place on the globe > it wants.  >    > % >>If I'm wrong, then you'll have four E >>more years to whine about the US becoming less than a free country.  >> > L > So far, most other countries have exercised patience, hoping Bush would beP > kicked out and a sense of normality could return. If Bush stays, expect to seeI > wall erected fairly soon to pre-emptively prevent Bush from interfering  > outside the USA.      N It really doesn't do much good to discuss such, since nothing but trouble can N come from it, but I have to ask, just what will this wall be built from?  How N many carrier battle groups do you have up your sleeve with which to implement N your plan?  You're sounding more and more like what some people in other news  groups call you.    O > On the other hand, the deficits and war tab may be so high that Bush may have P > his hands tied and not be able to do anything during the next 4 years and thus' > be far less of a danger to the world.  >  > R >>Did I mention people.  A free people have leaders.  The people you talked to had	 >>rulers.  >> > N > Whenever you have countries whose political boundaries were artificially setM > by europeans (such as Iraq and much of africa), you then have problems with I > multiple tribes present in a single country and that causes much strife H > because you can't have a leader that is liked by all and have constant > fighting between tribes. > P > Iraq is a country that shouldn't have existed. One part should have bene givenL > to Turkey, one part to Saudi Arabia and one to Iran according to religiousI > sects. But now you have some incompatible people stuck with each other.     O Following your logic, about peoples on this planet not being able to get along  O with each other, and the inevitable advances in knowledge, this planet and all  J life on it is doomed.  Not if, but when.  Better that attempts to instill P democracy and harmony, (and yes, I feel that they are intertwined), now instead 	 of later.     M > During the 1990s, Hussein achieved relative peace by granting the Kurds and J > the Shiites in the south a large level of autonomy and local government.I > (Something not mentioned in the USA media). But he was still a "strong" , > leader/ruler to impose peace if necessary.    F There you go again, off in you own little fantasy world.  The US flew P anti-fly-zone missions to prevent Saddam from using air power against the Kurds K and the Shiites.  Such 'autonomy' was forced upon him.  He granted nothing.     P > Until a certain maturity has been achieved by a population, differences insideH > that population may create strife that degenerates in real conflicts.  > M > Compare the tribal fights in Ethiopia or Sudan, to religious fights between J > Kurds/Sunnis/Shiites in Iraq, to the irish republicans vs those loyal toJ > britain (or catholic vs protestant if you wish), the french canadians vsP > english canadians and some country like switzerland where 3 languages co-exist > without much noise/strife. > I > the language conflict in canada reached maturity past 1970 after which, P > violence hasn't really occured. Maturity was only reached recently in Ireland,? > prior to which, there was real conflict between the factions.  > M > Until the people or Iraq reach a high level of maturity, you will need very O > strong leaders to keep the poeple from destroying each other. (or a very weak N > leader that gives each region so much autonomy that it reduces the conflicts0 > and makes the national government irrelevant).    N I'll go for the second, if it does away with violence.  Self determination is  preferable to being gassed.     P > This is why imposing democracy before it is time doesn't garantee good resultsF > and may result in a very large 20 year setback in Iraq if there is a > fundamentalist revolution.    J Then you don't let that happen.  Now is now, and you do much more good by N figuring how to go forward than by living forever in the past, which is where L most of the problems come from.  If it takes an iron fist from an impartial N third party to prevent the parties from aggression against each other until a H new generation that is taught to respect others comes along, fine by me.    O > pakistan is another good example. That is a country that is borderline mature P > enough to be democratic. Attempys at democracy seemed succesful at first, thenO > failed and military retook control. Hopefully the next attempt will succeed.      O Not as long as you have warlords, by whatever name you want to call them, that   maintain private armies.    O > meanwhile, next door to Pakistan is the largest democracy in the world, which L > was born when indians kicked out the british imperialists but shaped their$ > democracy after the british model. >  > Q >>Never said such.  Maybe it gets back to a prior issue.  The world might be much [ >>better off if the generals were the ones to lead the charges, while puching (pushing) the  >>politicians in front of them.  >> > J > The movie Farenheight 911 may have some funny sides to it. But it has anN > extremely serious message in it (and it all comes together at the very end).L > The people who go enroll in the army  are generally the poor men who can'tO > afford college. Meanwhile, the sons of rich people, and more importantly, the U > sons of politicians, don't enroll in the army and are safe from dangerous missions.     M Don't bother mentioning that rediculous propaganda to me.  Incidently, could  Q such have occured under Saddam, in Iran, in China, and a few other places you're   so fond of?     O > So in the end, politicians don't have to worry about their own sons when they I > decide to deploy troups on dangerous missions. But the ones who are the N > proudest of their countries are not the politicans, it is the poor chaps whoM > volunteer their own lifes to protect their nation and they get paid nowhere K > near as much as the politicians who don't have to worry about sacrificing  > their own lifes.    ) The pay of the US military is a disgrace.     M > When you sign up and are willing to sacrifice your own life to protect your O > nation, you better have damned good brainwashing to convince you that killing  > iraqis will protect the USA.    M I'm sorry I cannot remember the name of the NFL player, a person who 'had it  O made', leavint football and volunteering to go to Afganistan.  Maybe we're not  + as brainwashed as you wish people to think.     M > Already, there are defectors that are coming to Canada (vietnam again), and N > even in Iraq, there are now units refusing orders because they know they areL > ill prepared, ill equipped and that such mission are not worth sacrificingS > their lifes because this has nothing to do about protecting the world or the USA.     Q Got any names of people going to Canada?  I doubt it.  I think people here are a  P lot more tolerant than you believe.  As for refusing orders, that still an open O issue.  If the equipment wasn't adequate, then there is justification.  It was  N just a supply run, not a battlefield situation.  Superiors can also be wrong, K and I for one would rather have a piece of them if they truly were sending   people out unprepared.    M > This is why the unwillingness of Bush to admit strategic mistakes were made L > and change the role of the US troups will backfire. The USA troups must beO > given new orders from a new commander in chief to give them true peacekeeping L > madates with NO RETALIATORY STRIKES and surrendering military authority toM > either the UN or to the temporary iraqi govermment. They need to be told to . > act as peacekeepers instead of concquerors.     Q The real problem is that they're trying to be peacekeepers with people who don't  O want peace.  They need to get back to being soldiers, take out those who won't  O accept peace and freedom, and let the rest then live in peace and freedom.  If  S they need a blueprint, it might be read everything you write, then do the opposite.     L > The impending invasion of Fallujah is very very very wrong.  Not only willP > civilian casualties be very high (as well as infrastructure), but the USA willM > become even more hated by iraqis, arabs and the rest of the world. The fact P > that the iraqi  government is not telling the USA to stay put and forget aboutL > invading Fallujah also causes that govermment to lose any credibility withK > Iraqis since it makes it look even more like some puppet govermnment that A > essentially acts as a spokesperson/translator for Bush/Rumsfeld     K No, very very very right!  The people of that city are the same people who  M supported Saddam and his atrocities.  Now they are either terrorists, or are  J supporting terrorists.  This isn't something sudden.  For those who don't M support the terrorists, they have plenty of time to get out.  Not taking out  N these assholes sends a message that they can get away with their bombings and 4 attacks.  This should have happened many months ago.  R >>You might try to say the same about China, but it seems that the rulers are able5 >>to hang on and continue to tell people how to live.  >> > M > Au contraire. China is undergoing a quiet revolution. Commerce is striving, J > and the Chinese government even had to put brakes on the chinese economyS > because it was growing too fast. Many countries would love to have such problems.     / Sure, ignore the issue raised.  Typical of you.     K > Fact is that the more affluent the people are, the more independant (both M > financially and in their mind) they become and the more they are in contact O > with the rest of the world. China is becoming a very strong economic power in N > the world economy, and it will have to quickly lose its "developping nation"K > status. When that happens, China will have to work hard to reform to more O > democratic governance and more market driven economy. Note that you can still 0 > be quite socialist and still be market driven.     You're a blithering idiot!    O > Democracy will eventually come to China. It only came recently to Taiwan. ThemL > current government in china is seeing itself transformed from a ruler to aO > leader as citizens gain more independance. China may officially be communist,o< > but chinese people are very much hard working capitalists.    2 Only over the dead bodies of the hard line rulers.    N > Foreign companies are investing in China. China has allowed a privately heldN > airline to start in China. There are a lot of changes going on. China's moveT > from communism into the capitalist world will be far more succesful than Russia's.    ( Convict labor?  Wholesale counterfiting?    P > Companies aren't fighting to buy plastic widgets from China. They are fightingN > to sell aircraft, computers to chinese. they are fighting to invest to build > car plants in china. o    ; Are you refering to the stupid companies exporting US jobs?a    K > China used to be just a place to make cheap parts. It is now a very large  > consuming market.     % Not at the prices others have to pay.,    I >>Saddam isn't there to restrain them.  I'd suggest that this distasteful J >>actifvity a result of the US removing surpression.  Is this a failure ofJ >>freedom.  Or is it a tolerance of those who preach hate against others?  >> > K > Right now, the extremism you are seeing in Iraq is hatred against the USA B > invasion and attempts to make anything the USA tries to do fail. > O > Once the USA widthdraws its military authority and its forces are transformed P > into peacekeepers, then we can START to see what Iraq will look like later on.G > The USA really has to stop meddling into Iraq's affairs. It must stoplF > controlling rebuilding efforts, and using oil revenus to pay for itsL > activities. Reconstruction contracts must go to Iraqi companies first. LetI > them subcontract with foreign firsm if they want special expertise. ButeN > reconstruction must be done by them, although all damage done by the illegalN > invasion must be paid for my the invading nations, just like Iraq had to pay > damages to Kuwait. > O > With extremely high unemployement, how do you think Iraqis feel when they seeaM > their oil money going to Haliburton who brings in americans to do work that   > iraqis could have been doing ? > J > In other words, the USA, like the others, must just be neutral low levelL > policemen that operate from orders given by the Iraqi government. And theyJ > could have simple rules that for every Iraqi soldier/policement that hasM > achieved training and adequate level of experience, they will widthdraw oneeL > foreign soldier. That would give a LOT of incentive to Iraqis to allow the8 > Iraqis to cooperate and get trained by foreign troups. > I > People talk about when US troups will widthdraw from Iraq. It cannot beeK > something that is just done at the press of a button. It must be a smooth-K > GRADUAL transition. The Bush leadership has given no guidance on how theyu; > foresee the future. They just stated "business as usual".d > I > The USA *could* have already begun to SLOWLY widthdraw troups if the USlN > military had been given the mission on the day following end of official war4 > (when Bush was bragging on that aircraft carrier). > P > And had the USA not decimated the country with the invasion, there would stillT > be active police forces which would have made life much easier in the early weeks. > N > The USA had a goal to decimate the country and rebuild it from scratch. LikeM > leukemia: destroy the cancerous bone marrow and let totally new one regrow.o > L > But you don't have to destroye all of the bone marrow when you just have 3, > cancerous cells at the very top to excise. >  > O >>your solution, other than supporting the monster that shot and tortured those.! >>who didn't follow his dictates?e >> > P > Once the current sanctions against Iraq were ready to be lifted (assuming fullP > compliance with post 1991 resolutions), you then start to get countries to put# > some conditions for trade deals. . > - > Lybia abandonned terrorism a long time ago.k    O Yeah, after Ronnie showed them the consequences.  That's what it took.  I know t  you'll try to spin it otherwise.  # > But like Iraq, it took forever togM > abide to sanctions (admit to certain acts and pay damages). The real reason-J > Lybia paid its debt this year isn't because of the Iraqi invasion, it isI > because Lybia saw a window of opportunity open: by admitting to various-O > WMD/nuclear stuff and officiially giving up and pretending it was all becauseTP > of the Irqai invasion, it would give Bush/Bliar a lot of political capital andI > would put Lybia on a fast track to get all sanctions lifted against it.t > O > Had it just paid its debts, nobody would have noticed and it would have taken4G > forever for the US and Britain to lift their sanctions. I wouldn't beoN > surprised if the nuclear stuff they "found" in Lybia was actually brought inH > for the photo ops so that Lybia could pretend it was giving it all up. >  > M > To finish, the night before the election, the one movie they should show isi > "WAG THE DOG". >   O You're a waste of time.  You make rediculous claims.  You have your own little xK fantasy and ignore reality.  I don't think I'm going to continue with such.    Dave   -- S4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin RoadP Vanderbilt, PA  15486n   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Oct 2004 15:14:52 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen).' Subject: Re: Question about Descriptors 3 Message-ID: <7Kv33l3oVAWl@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  W In article <4179C40F.8010902@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:T
 > Z wrote: >  >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:C >>  D >>>>>> You forgot BASIC, which may be the best at string processing. >>>>>  >> 4 >>>>> Better than PL/I?n >>>> >>   >>>> Better than MUMPS?p >>>s >>   >>> Better than TECO ? >> l >>   >> Better than Perl? > 
 > Ok,  :-) > 0 > In addition to manipulating strings I want to: > C > Perform data file I/O on various database products, RMS, DAS, ando@ > Perform mailbox, socket, DECnet, and other communications, and- > Implement medium to large applications, and2H > Do all the other things for which people use 3rd generation languages. > 8 > I'll assume that leaves PL/I and MUMPS in the running.  @ Actually, that leaves all VMS compiled languages in the running,$ due to the common calling standard !   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Oct 2004 15:27:57 -0700 From: vershinin-vk@mtu-net.rulO Subject: VTfm - OpenVMS file manager. New release 2.2-8 (last in this October). = Message-ID: <b587d953.0410231427.12d422f0@posting.google.com>p  E Some changes and additions of function keys when input and edit lineslF (see also 19FKey): ^P - extract previous command line (instead of ^E),C ^H - cursor to beg of line, ^E - cursor to end of line, ^U - deletedA chars from beg of line to current position. Some minor bug fixes.t  " You can download VTFM.ZIP kit from4 http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~vershinin/vtfm.zip.  C The kit also submitted for Hunter Goatley FILESERV and for the nextn OpenVMS Freeware CD.   Vladimir Vershinin,a vershinin-vk@mtu-net.ru    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:03:52 -0400n" From: Glenn Everhart <gce@gce.com>& Subject: Re: What happened with SEVMS?& Message-ID: <417AB928.8080306@gce.com>   David J Dachtera wrote:e > William Webb wrote:b >  >>David J Dachtera wrote:  >> >> >>>John Smith wrote: >>>d >>>i
 >>>>[snip] >>>u >>>t >>>"What happened with SEVMS?" >>>  >>>Doesn't run on IA32.s >>>  >>>What more needs to be said? >>>  >> >>Never ran on Alpha, AFAIK. >  > A > Doesn't have to at this point. Alpha is a herring, while Itanico1 > flounders, clinging desparately to the surface.t > 2 > Meanwhile, IA32 servers continue to proliferate. > J > Funny thing... VMware is supposed to enable server consolidation, yet inI > many places this has actually fostered server proliferation, presumablypG > because now a project does not need to buy its own server, just "buy"lI > resources (read: a VMware instance) on any server in the company havingo > available resources. > F > That's another thing the market repeatedly proves yet VMS managementF > doesn't understand: affordable means more sales. The less affordableH > (read: cost-justifiable) the product, the lower its sales numbers willF > be. Lower sales = lower revenue, lower volume. Lower volume = higher7 > cost per unit = slimmer profits = expendable product.e > H > ...and y'know what "the bitch" is? I'm an idiot and I understand that.F > These people are (supposedly) educated people, yet it remains beyond > their grasp. >  > Go figure... > H What happened to SEVMS? Lot of work to get it ported to Alpha. One order
 in a year.   Not enough demand, that.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:04:04 -0400e# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>d& Subject: Re: What happened with SEVMS?, Message-ID: <FLadndsL9djESOfcRVn-gA@igs.net>   Glenn Everhart wrote:. > David J Dachtera wrote:d >> William Webb wrote: >> >>> David J Dachtera wrote:  >>>e >>>r >>>> John Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>  >>>> "What happened with SEVMS?" >>>> >>>> Doesn't run on IA32.p >>>>  >>>> What more needs to be said? >>>> >>>u >>> Never ran on Alpha, AFAIK. >> >>B >> Doesn't have to at this point. Alpha is a herring, while Itanic2 >> flounders, clinging desparately to the surface. >>3 >> Meanwhile, IA32 servers continue to proliferate.u >>D >> Funny thing... VMware is supposed to enable server consolidation,F >> yet in many places this has actually fostered server proliferation,@ >> presumably because now a project does not need to buy its ownG >> server, just "buy" resources (read: a VMware instance) on any serverm- >> in the company having available resources.m >>G >> That's another thing the market repeatedly proves yet VMS managementeG >> doesn't understand: affordable means more sales. The less affordable D >> (read: cost-justifiable) the product, the lower its sales numbersE >> will be. Lower sales = lower revenue, lower volume. Lower volume = ? >> higher cost per unit = slimmer profits = expendable product.h >>C >> ...and y'know what "the bitch" is? I'm an idiot and I understand F >> that. These people are (supposedly) educated people, yet it remains >> beyond their grasp. >> >> Go figure...i >>D > What happened to SEVMS? Lot of work to get it ported to Alpha. One > order in a year. >2 > Not enough demand, that.    L That's only a few orders of magnitude less than the demand for new non-SEVMS# installations from *new* customers.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.590 ************************