1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 09 Sep 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 500       Contents:  Re: Another MIME utility problem( Re: Big IA64 test coming in a few months( Re: Big IA64 test coming in a few months1 Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS 1 Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS 1 RE: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS / Re: could SET DISPLAY be caching an IP address? 	 Re: DDCMP  Re: EV8 advertised by accident" Re: Frances and disaster tolerance FTP_Mirror.. anyone? Re: Future of Decnet< Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld< Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld< Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld% Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals " Re: Itanium: EFI... no fs0: device" Re: Itanium: EFI... no fs0: device" Re: Itanium: EFI... no fs0: device5 Re: JAVA deleted without warning by VMS 7.3-2 upgrade  Re: Kerry who?% Re: Maximum distance for VMS clusters % Re: Maximum distance for VMS clusters  Nagios NRPE for VMS  Re: Nagios NRPE for VMS E NYMLUG Wed., 9/15 VMS Alpha/Itanium HP Presentation and Meeting @ NYC  Re: Problem with LPD queue Tapesys consolidation  Re: Tapesys consolidation 7 VERITAS Netbackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP1 release now available ; Re: VERITAS Netbackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP1 release now available  Re: Virus writers and VMS  Re: VMS marketing opportunity  Re: VMS marketing opportunity  Re: VMS marketing opportunity 6 RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all6 RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all6 Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all6 Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all6 Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all6 Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all6 RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" RE: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" RE: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" RE: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?# Re: [OT]: The state of CS education   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:09:14 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>) Subject: Re: Another MIME utility problem 2 Message-ID: <chnotl$u32$1@news5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>  I Yes, the 1.4 version was far from perfect. However we are at version 1.8   now....... :-)   JF Mezei wrote:  > VAX VMS 7.2, MIME utility:   > " > Image Identification Information > $ >                 image name: "MIME"3 >                 image file identification: "V1.4" 9 >                 link date/time: 22-SEP-2000 08:45:11.89 1 >                 linker identification: "V11-38"  >  > ) > References: <04016060904002/49508@VELO>   > Subject: Chocolate Cake Recipe& > Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 21:31:58 +0200 > MIME-Version: 1.0   > Content-Type: multipart/mixed;> >         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C49458.F04B0DE0" > X-Priority: 3  > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 4 > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409: > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409? > X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com  > . > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > - > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C49458.F04B0DE0  > Content-Type: text/plain;  >         charset="iso-8859-1"! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  >  > - > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C49458.F04B0DE0  > Content-Type: image/jpeg;  >         name="P8270069s.JPG"# > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 " > Content-Disposition: attachment;" >         filename="P8270069s.JPG" > etc. > A > ---------------------------------------------------------------  >  > MC MIME  bad.mime ' > <stupid clear screen escape sequence> @ > %MIME-W-NOBOUNDRY, multipart message has no boundary parameter > $  > P > One must edit the mime source file, and put the boundary parameter on the sameM > line as the Countent Type (eg: the mime utility does not concatenate header & > lines when one begins with a space).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:39:10 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>1 Subject: Re: Big IA64 test coming in a few months 0 Message-ID: <873c1sbo6p.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  , "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  @ > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:...  ; >> "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message 0 >> news:$lpDyZUgjEvr@eisner.encompasserve.org...  A >> We can?  Purely on the basis of a statement which Paul clearly F >> qualified as an *opinion*, when Digitimes is reporting something it( >> claims to have some actual basis for?  5 >> I think not.  Let's see what Intel says next week.   = > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/07/itanium_delayed_q4/   B > "Intel now plans to debut a 1.6GHz Itanium chip with the beastlyA > Level 3 cache in the fourth quarter. The company had originally A > planned to bring this chip out at 1.7GHz in the third quarter."   F > And Intel doesn't seem to be talking about anything close to 2.5 GHz > for Montecito at IDF, either.   G Intel has anounced that they are still the  industry leaders, even more  late for your dollar.   C And the monster seems to have been on a diet as well, plus they are  iffy about hitting 1.6GHz.  A Remind me, what and went was it to be twice as fast as the Alpha? * Perhaps they need a bigger filing cabinet.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:24:51 -0400* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>1 Subject: Re: Big IA64 test coming in a few months = Message-ID: <h6SdnbFJI5PO5aLcRVn-vw@metrocastcablevision.com>   9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message * news:873c1sbo6p.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com...   ...   C > Remind me, what and went was it to be twice as fast as the Alpha?   J At introduction, according to an HP marketdroid back in the '90s:  2x - 3x as fast as RISC..   J That would have been Merced in May, 2001.  Perhaps they just never updated< their projections and got Curly to cancel EV8 on that basis.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:31:07 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>: Subject: Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS, Message-ID: <413F7A1B.7040606@tsoft-inc.com>   Tom Linden wrote:    >   E > Do you mean like the strategic decision to go from VAX to Alpha or,  > from Alpha to Itanium?    N Just to state my feelings, I like the VAX, and have previously stated that it O should NOT have been discontinued.  DEC might still exist, and a nice cash cow  N would still be working, if they set appropriate prices and kept people happy. P Sould still be a bunch of VMS systems in use.  VMS in process control, and many M other things that don't require bleeding edge performance.  Another business   opportunity discarded.  P But VAX had some baggage.  It was preceived that it couldn't offer performance. P   In the heyday of the RISC processors (not saying it's ended) the VAX had some Q marketing baggage.  If DEC was to play in this arena, then they needed the tools  Q to do so.  Alpha has proved itself.  It may be dead, but not because it couldn't  M compete.  I've never had a problem with Alpha.  I have had and still do have   problems with:  - Trying to replace VAX sales with Alpha sales.   ? Keeping VAX prices very high with respect to price/performance.    Quiting on VAX.    Now quiting on Alpha.   Q As for the itanic, look at what Sun is doing.  Keeping Sparc, adding 64 bit x86,  Q adding Power, maybe even adding itanic.  A much more customer oriented plan, and   what DEC should have done.     Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:31:10 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS, Message-ID: <GfWdnTQF-7zBL6LcRVn-hA@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote:  > < -----Original Message-----3 > < From: David Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com] / > < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:31 PM  > < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > < Subject: Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS > <  > <  > < Tom Linden wrote:  > <  > < >  > < E > < > Do you mean like the strategic decision to go from VAX to Alpha   > or, < > from Alpha to Itanium? > <  > < B > < Just to state my feelings, I like the VAX, and have previously > < stated that itD > < should NOT have been discontinued.  DEC might still exist, and a > < nice cash cow C > < would still be working, if they set appropriate prices and kept  > < people happy. A > < Sould still be a bunch of VMS systems in use.  VMS in process  > < control, and many > > < other things that don't require bleeding edge performance. > < Another business > < opportunity discarded. > < @ > < But VAX had some baggage.  It was preceived that it couldn't > < offer performance. > F > Of course, that was either a false perception or subterfuge by thoseG > who wanted to "play" with RISC.  There is no reason, WHATSOEVER, that F > VAX couldn't have kept pace with the rest of the industry.  How muchB > was spent developing AXP, 5, 10 billion?  It is hard to push the; > argument that VAX was dead end, in light of what has been C > accomplished with X86 and 390 architecture.  QED.  Digital simply  > stopped developing VAX.  > B > <   In the heyday of the RISC processors (not saying it's ended) > < the VAX had someC > < marketing baggage.  If DEC was to play in this arena, then they  > < needed the tools
 > < to do so.  > D > I don't think Alpha today has as many tools as VAX, but I could be > wrong. > 3 > Alpha has proved itself.  It may be dead, but not  > < because it couldn't B > < compete.  I've never had a problem with Alpha.  I have had and > < still do have  > < problems with: > < 1 > < Trying to replace VAX sales with Alpha sales.  > < C > < Keeping VAX prices very high with respect to price/performance.  > C > Maybe because it has something that Alpha doesn't?  We still have F > customers buying VAXen (we don't sell HW, but they use our compiler)    + So what's the status of PL/1 on Itanic/VMS?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:43:01 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> : Subject: RE: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECICEEHDMAA.tom@kednos.com>    < -----Original Message-----* < From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]- < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:31 PM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < < Subject: Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS <  <  < Tom Linden wrote:   < > < -----Original Message-----5 < > < From: David Froble [mailto:davef@tsoft-inc.com] 1 < > < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:31 PM  < > < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ < > < Subject: Re: Canada's Equitable Life begins moving off VMS < > <  < > <  < > < Tom Linden wrote:  < > <  < > < >  < > < G < > < > Do you mean like the strategic decision to go from VAX to Alpha " < > or, < > from Alpha to Itanium? < > <  < > < D < > < Just to state my feelings, I like the VAX, and have previously < > < stated that itF < > < should NOT have been discontinued.  DEC might still exist, and a < > < nice cash cow E < > < would still be working, if they set appropriate prices and kept  < > < people happy. C < > < Sould still be a bunch of VMS systems in use.  VMS in process  < > < control, and many @ < > < other things that don't require bleeding edge performance. < > < Another business < > < opportunity discarded. < > < B < > < But VAX had some baggage.  It was preceived that it couldn't < > < offer performance. < > H < > Of course, that was either a false perception or subterfuge by thoseI < > who wanted to "play" with RISC.  There is no reason, WHATSOEVER, that H < > VAX couldn't have kept pace with the rest of the industry.  How muchD < > was spent developing AXP, 5, 10 billion?  It is hard to push the= < > argument that VAX was dead end, in light of what has been E < > accomplished with X86 and 390 architecture.  QED.  Digital simply  < > stopped developing VAX.  < > D < > <   In the heyday of the RISC processors (not saying it's ended) < > < the VAX had someE < > < marketing baggage.  If DEC was to play in this arena, then they  < > < needed the tools < > < to do so.  < > F < > I don't think Alpha today has as many tools as VAX, but I could be
 < > wrong. < > 5 < > Alpha has proved itself.  It may be dead, but not  < > < because it couldn't D < > < compete.  I've never had a problem with Alpha.  I have had and < > < still do have  < > < problems with: < > < 3 < > < Trying to replace VAX sales with Alpha sales.  < > < E < > < Keeping VAX prices very high with respect to price/performance.  < > E < > Maybe because it has something that Alpha doesn't?  We still have H < > customers buying VAXen (we don't sell HW, but they use our compiler) <  < - < So what's the status of PL/1 on Itanic/VMS?    Nothing new report <  <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B < Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 <  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 04:59:41 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)8 Subject: Re: could SET DISPLAY be caching an IP address?$ Message-ID: <chonvt$2g6$1@online.de>  5 In article <4139FFA0.AB54770F@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei ' <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:    H > Doing a test, a xxxxx.dyndns.org responds with a 4 hours time to live.  E This is probably the cause of the problem.  I would say the value is  H much too long, considering that the typical dynamic IP address is valid 1 for at most 24 hours.  Or am I missing something?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:55:28 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: DDCMP+ Message-ID: <413FB80F.70080C32@comcast.net>    John Sauter wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > ; > DDCMP is simply DECnet over a serial line, synchronous or G > asynchronous.  Think point-to-point links, much the way that Multinet ! > supports DECnet-IV over TCP/IP.  >  > John Sauter responded: > D > DDCMP is not DECnet over a serial line.  It is just a protocol forD > improving the error characteristics of a communication link, usingF > checksums, retries, and restart signaling.  It is a layer 2 protocol> > (if I am remembering the layer numbers correctly) and can be' > used with any higher-level protocol.    H That said, the most common use for DDCMP (for most VMS folks) was DECnetH over a serial link. Hence, like the term "ISO image" or "Xerox machine",G it has become - somewhat incorrectly - "genericised" to be equated with G DECnet over a serial link. Yes, the drivers and such provide the target 5 device, DECnet provides the circuit over that "line".    D.J.D.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 19:32:15 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: EV8 advertised by accident * Message-ID: <2q951vFt029aU1@uni-berlin.de>  , In article <_5ednaRMcKIHQKTcRVn-rQ@igs.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Main, Kerry wrote: >>> -----Original Message-----8 >>> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]# >>> Sent: September 3, 2004 9:33 PM  >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com + >>> Subject: Re: EV8 advertised by accident  >>>  >> >> [Snip ..] >>A >>> And to anyone who denies there being a basement at ZKO, well,  >>> that is what> >>> *THEY* want you to believe. And yes, i am watching a james >>> bond movie while >>> typing this. >>>  >>F >> And after finally fighting the bad guys, James Bond finally gets toG >> rip the black hood off the Spectre leader and .... Its Bob Palmer ..  >  > K > Yes, but the Leader of SMERSH (acronym, loosely translated, for 'Death To B > Spies') will be revealed to be two people - curly and carly(tm).   I Actually, SPECTRE is an acronym.  SMERSH was a contraction of the russian K (anglicized here) "smiert spionam" which did in fact mean "death to spies".     bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:59:24 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> + Subject: Re: Frances and disaster tolerance , Message-ID: <zZidnXb-fJFnJaLcRVn-hA@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <413B609B.5DC685E9@teksavvy.com>,1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: @ >> Kennedy Space centre saw the storm coming and on Thursday andC >> Friday, they "prepared" for the coming stormby shutting down the 
 >> centre. >>F >> Interestingly, the web sites hosted at KSC such as www.ksc.nasa.govD >> as well as some of the NASA TV real media feeds have been offlineG >> since then. And since Frances is late, they've been offline for days E >> now. (I know, web and real aren't "mission critical" for NASA, but C >> it is still an indication of the impact of having to shot down a - >> data centre for days in case fo flooding).  >>B >> Similarly, when a few years ago, some hurricane threathened theB >> Houston area, they shut down that centre in preparation for it. >>H >> Considering NASA has a large network linking geographically dispersedE >> locations, I find it interesting that they don't "fall back" their & >> web sites to an alternate location. >> >>E >> NASA probably has the luxury of being able to shut down its sites. G >> How did businesses behave in Florida ? Would they have actually shut F >> down their systems to reduce damage if flooding did occur, or wouldB >> they have just let their data centre run until it failed (power >> outage and/or flooding).  > C > I would love to know how the Martin Marietta (now probably called = > Lockheed Martin) complex in Orlando fared?  It was the most 0 > bullet-proof computer center I have ever seen.    I I'd guess it would depend on how well the did the waterproofing job below L grade (if there are any critical HVAC or electrical rooms is basements), and how well the roof stood up.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:43:50 -0400# From: "Hal Kuff" <kuff@comcast.net>  Subject: FTP_Mirror.. anyone? - Message-ID: <cho5fl$1f0@library1.airnews.net>   J Hi, does anyone have a copy of ftp_mirror that they have cleaned up a bit?( The copy on the ftp sites has a few bugs   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 17:53:41 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Future of Decnet * Message-ID: <2q8v95Ft41koU2@uni-berlin.de>  = In article <f30679fb.0409020508.56b4c6bc@posting.google.com>, 1 	fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes:  > Dear Sirs  > = > As Decnet is becoming an almost extincted protocol,why not  - > HP opens or give it: to IEEE for example ?  A > May be it can be improved as an industrial automation protocol.  >   F Yeah, give it to IEEE.  That will pretty much ensure its rapid demise.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 14:09:38 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) E Subject: Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld 3 Message-ID: <RGnxz2uw4ye1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <ea44f5a1.0409080525.61494fbf@posting.google.com>, tadamsmar@yahoo.com (Tom Adams) writes:  > G > I did see somewhere that HP is expecting most users to migrate before D > 2007.  But the survey seems to indicate that most have not started. > planning, so the migrations could run later.  <    I know of shops that plan to keep right on running VAXen.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:55:00 +0800 , From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>E Subject: Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld 0 Message-ID: <87u0u8a8vv.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  # Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:   C > That was CPUs for new VAX systems. Customers rushed to buy them & F > they sold out under five years. There are sufficient spare parts forE > those on hardware support contracts. The requirement for these CPUs  > was factored in.  B Oh? So why where they so desperate to buy up 7000s for the 5 sided funny farm?    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:50:49 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>E Subject: Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld , Message-ID: <413F7EB9.2040305@tsoft-inc.com>   Nigel Barker wrote:   O > On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 21:44:42 -0400, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  >  >  >>Tom Adams wrote:R >>The intent was to mfg enough N-VAX CPUs to last 5 years when the CPU production ? >>was shut down.  Intent is fine, but they didn't last 5 years.  >> > Q > That was CPUs for new VAX systems. Customers rushed to buy them & they sold out  > under five years.     : The issue was 'intent'.  What was intended, didn't happen.  P As for customers rushing to buy them, didn't that mean anything to the business E people at DEC?  Oppps,  ....   business people at DEC, no such thing.   @ > There are sufficient spare parts for those on hardware support< > contracts. The requirement for these CPUs was factored in.     Wasn't the issue.      Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:15:24 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>. Subject: Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals+ Message-ID: <413FBCBC.E893A23A@comcast.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  > ` > >http://news.com.com/Itanium+not+meeting+Intel%27s+goals/2100-1010_3-5349588.html?tag=nefd.top > N > Will not quote the whole article here. It is a comment made by an Intel execP > during the dveelopper forum, but refers mostly to short/medium term goals, butI > IA64 is still on track for long term goals even though those goals were 0 > downscaled from total dominance of the market. > H > The 64 bit 8086 has also thrown the IA64 folks off track with XEON nowP > offering serious competition to IA64, relegating IA64 to combatting only Sparc  > and Power in high end systems.  E Y'know, I was pondering this today and had a chill run down my spine. 	 Consider:   E There's another a thread that mentions an article indicating that the - last Alpha chips are coming off the FABs now.   A Compaq was pushing NT/Alpha like crazy just before the Alphacide.   F hp is "pushing" VMS (in so far as it ever has) right now. With all dueE respect to Sue, perhaps even she is being led down the primrose path.   H Intel appears to be suggesting that Itanic may be sinking faster than we% first thought, or ever dared suggest.   D OVMS-IA32 and OVMS-x86/64 are both viewed as non-doable (for reasonsG known only to VMS, the rest of the market seems to disagree - tacitly - H by fully embracing those technologies). That leaves VMS with potentially+ no path forward and certainly no path back.   H Let's see now - what was the employment office number for that scavengerH company again? Oh, and I gotta go sign up for a CDL (Commercial Driver's@ License) (with air-brake endorsement) class, hazmat classes, ...   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:24:56 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) + Subject: Re: Itanium: EFI... no fs0: device 3 Message-ID: <c0J%c.10053$Hp4.3842@news.cpqcorp.net>   b In article <ch52j6$sat$1@pcls4.std.com>, moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:  J :I just hope that what happened when you ran both NT and VMS (or Unix) on K :older Alphas doesn't happen on Windows/VMS Itaniums.  On those Alphas, NT  L :would see the VMS disk and would ask to write a "harmless signature" to it.H :Unfortunately, this "signature" overwrote the bootblock, making the VMS :drive unbootable.  C   My code contends with this case.  When written to an OpenVMS I64  G   system disk, the so-called harmless signature is, in fact, harmless.    E   OpenVMS I64 itself writes the MBR signature, as well as writing the E   GPT GUID signatures that are expected on GPT-based disk structures.   C   The OpenVMS Alpha bootblock can still be clobbered by a Microsoft C   Windows "harmess" signature.  If this arises, boot a distribution 0   CD, and re-write the bootblock with WRITEBOOT.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:49:20 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) + Subject: Re: Itanium: EFI... no fs0: device 3 Message-ID: <4nJ%c.10065$Hp4.4436@news.cpqcorp.net>   b In article <ch5bq2$97v$1@pcls4.std.com>, moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:6 :Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> writes: : / :>On 2004-09-01 19:57, "Michael Moroney" wrote:  : M :>> I just hope that what happened when you ran both NT and VMS (or Unix) on  N :>> older Alphas doesn't happen on Windows/VMS Itaniums.  On those Alphas, NT O :>> would see the VMS disk and would ask to write a "harmless signature" to it. G :>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ K :>> Unfortunately, this "signature" overwrote the bootblock, making the VMS  :>> drive unbootable.  : H :>Isn't that a "feature" of Winwoes totally independent of the CPU it is
 :>running on?  : H :It is, but the only time it would be a problem is when there is a driveE :with an OS on it that is not partitioned the way Windows expects it. F :Not a problem with PCs (no VMS disks there!) except maybe for certainJ :flavors of Linux/Unix.  Linuxes I've seen all live on a partitioned drive$ :that Windows understands/tolerates.       So does OpenVMS I64.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:09:34 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) + Subject: Re: Itanium: EFI... no fs0: device 3 Message-ID: <2GJ%c.10068$Hp4.4637@news.cpqcorp.net>   \ In article <413603C0.D4BBBF5B@teksavvy.com>, Jf Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:J > If/when Windows becomes available for IA64, and you have a system with 2O > physical drives, one loaded with Windows, will Windows see the "VMS" drive as N > 2 distinct drives (one with the EFI FAT file system, and one with a strange, > unknown file system on it ?)  E   The disk has one or two FAT partitions, and two or three protective F   partitions; each OpenVMS I64 disk will have three or five partitionsD   in total.  All blocks will be assigned to one of these partitions.  F   One of the FAT partitions identifies itself as an EFI partition, theC   other (if present) as a diagnostics partition.  The two or three  E   other partitions identify themselves as the OpenVMS low, middle and D   high (protective) partitions based on the GUID codes assigned fromE   one of my Alpha boxes.  OpenVMS and ODS-2 and ODS-5 see almost none D   of this, and -- save for cases of dynamic volume expansion -- the 5   OpenVMS disk structures will occupy the whole disk.      --    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 23:10:51 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) > Subject: Re: JAVA deleted without warning by VMS 7.3-2 upgrade3 Message-ID: <+oWd7q5xLEe2@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <413F1AAD.C4A6AFCC@wvnet.edu>, Verne Britton <verne-REMOVE-THIS@wvnet.edu> writes:   0 > ITRC says (gosh I do miss DSNlink), in article  H >    manually re-install Java. The non-inclusion of JAVA was intended to > be  I >    stated in the 7.3-2 Release Notes, but was inadvertantly overlooked.   C > HEY ENGINEERING... next time can you have a message on the screen G > during the upgrade itself to mention these kinds of things to us  :-)   E Not really.  Release Notes and Software for VMS get shipped together. E If they thought that joint shipment was correct (with a notice in the G release notes) they would not change the software to say it was missing  the notice.   A Certainly those of us who have read the release notes do not want  them repeated to us on screen.  D > I would have thought if a new version was not being installed that7 > at least the old version WOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND.   C Given that their plan did not work, what makes you think a slightly " different plan would have worked ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:58:23 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Kerry who? + Message-ID: <413FB8BE.B90CBF1D@comcast.net>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > % > What does this have to do with VMS?   F Please don't feed the troll - especially not this one! A *REAL* sicko!   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:32:18 -0500 ( From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon). Subject: Re: Maximum distance for VMS clusters1 Message-ID: <04090816321832@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>    I can attest to the latency ...   P Years ago at Blockbuster, I accidentally created a VAX/VMS CLUSTER over our WAN.! (years as in about 10 years back)   N I do not remember the WAN architecture however the servers were running 1-Mbit and 10-Mbit Ethernet.   G The boot server was in Dallas and the remote node was in Ft. Lauderdale 0 Florida.  About 1,300 miles as the road travels.  O The development team liked the fact they could now access Book Reader - however 
 slow it was.     It was slow but it did work.    L > This post is in regards to Larry K's question:  "What is the current limitD > on Cluster distance?" from the thread "VMS marketing opportunity." > M > I contacted Digital Networks, http://www.digitalnetworks.net.  I had spoken F > to them about long distance clustering and the concept of continetal2 > clusters at HP World 2004.  Here's the response. > ) > ---------------------------------------  > ( > From: Dennis Majikas, Digital Networks > K > "Dave Leverone (Sales Manager, Digital Networks) asked me to provide some 8 > details on maximum distance for clusters. Here goes... > I > The official party line from HP on maximum distance between VMS clusterlN > nodes is 500 miles. At the time this (artificial) limit was set in the earlyN > 1990's, we had actually tested successfully (using an Adtech link simulator)I > distances up to 12,000 miles. This demonstrated that the VMS cluster isfC > rock-solid at long distances, however the application latency was K > significantly affected by this distance. The only practical limitation isrN > the effect of the physical / electrical / optical latency that is eventuallyB > imposed on the application response time. Network technology andK > architecture has advanced to the point where it is no longer the limitingtM > factor. The reality-based limitations are usually the cost and availabilityuN > of the inter-site data connectivity. In essence, the documented limit of 500D > miles simply serves to keep the typical customer within practical,M > supportable boundaries. Beyond that, there is actual mention of VMS cluster - > data replication extending to 60,000 miles:1 > ) > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/availability/  > J > Above the 500 mile limit, HP treats each implementation as a unique caseJ > that must be designed and tested accordingly. This  addresses the entireK > hardware / software / and network as an integrated cluster solution, with < > particular attention to all of the component technologies: > 6 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/clusters/ > : > Let me know if this information satisfies your interest! >  > Thanks and Regards,  > Dennis! > _______________________________r > Dennis Majikas > Pre-Sales Technical Supporte > Digital Networks > DNPG, LLCt > 20 North Wentworth Avenuea > Londonderry, NH 03053  USA > Office: +1 603.216.6026l > ( > --------------------------------------         J*o*h*n B*r*a*n*d*o*na VMS Systems Administratorn* firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:22:57 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@PROBE.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis). Subject: Re: Maximum distance for VMS clusters. Message-ID: <cho0o1$fgu$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  M Whatever you do, don't tell your cluster it's completely LAVC when it's not.  * I tried that and had a worst-case outcome.  D The LAN at our remote site was connected via frame relay to our mainG network.  I got the network guys to turn on bridging for Decnet and SCS G packets, then I drove up to the site with a satellite node in my trunk.   J As it booted, the frame relay connection went down (probably not caused byH me, just bad luck), and the cluster hung.  And the worst part was that II couldn't do anything because I was 200 miles away.  I didn't even know itIL was hung until they called me, and all I could say was "reboot the cluster".  K Now that satellite node is back here at the main site, and the users at the4% remote site use the cluster remotely.t  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:18:09 -0500* From: Michael Clark <MClark@Nemschoff.com> Subject: Nagios NRPE for VMSQ Message-ID: <A2A28DB6D52E084783ACD6E6C6F5D79002287478@EMAILSERVER2.nemschoff.com>x  K I know someone said the had a NRPE they made work for OpenVMS could someone9 throw this my way please?n    A CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This electronic transmission, including allaL attachments, is directed in confidence solely to the person(s) to whom it isL addressed, or an authorized recipient, and may not otherwise be distributed,L copied or disclosed. The contents of the transmission may also be subject toJ intellectual property rights and all such rights are expressly claimed andG are not waived. If you have received this transmission in error, please8H notify the sender immediately by return electronic transmission and thenH immediately delete this transmission, including all attachments, without* copying, distributing or disclosing same.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:36:18 +0200c0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>  Subject: Re: Nagios NRPE for VMSB Message-ID: <413f5123$0$28471$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>   Michael Clark wrote:M > I know someone said the had a NRPE they made work for OpenVMS could someonea > throw this my way please?e >    Here catch!:  A Nagios - nrpe_vms - Nagios Remote Plugin Executor - Planet Mirror94 http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/sf/n/nr/nrpe-vms/  ? Nagios - nrpe_vms - Nagios Remote Plugin Executor - SourceForges( http://sourceforge.net/projects/nrpe-vms   Cheers!.   Keith Cayembergg   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 22:32:09 -0700u+ From: spamdump@mccready.com (Gary McCready)lN Subject: NYMLUG Wed., 9/15 VMS Alpha/Itanium HP Presentation and Meeting @ NYC= Message-ID: <ffd79a6c.0409082132.61b3907c@posting.google.com>t  @ Please join us for the next Encompass NY Metro Local Users Group meeting.< Note: you must RSVP in advance for entrance to the building.  " Alpha, Itanium and Storage updates    Wednesday, September 15th, 2004. 8:30am - 4:00 pm
 HP Offices- 2 Penn Plaza 8th Floor ( 7th Ave and 32nd St)h New York City, NY , Directly above the entrance to Penn Station.  E HP has graciously allowed us to piggyback on their morning  "HP AlphauD Commitment tour", providing attendees with both breakfast and lunch,F and providing space and support for the LUG's afternoon presentations.    Our afternoon program includes: E - Q/A time with John Apps regarding Web Services on OpenVMS - he willaE also be available for site-specific discussions regarding integrating ' OpenVMS applications with Web Services.dD - A presentation by Robert Lyons on adding an Itanium system to your VMS cluster 0 - A storage trends presentation by Keith Parris.D No membership is needed to attend the Encompass LUG meetings; pleaseE see below to join our email list or steering committee to plan futurea	 meetings.b  $ For the morning HP Presentations see) http://www.hp.com/large/events/2004/ev7z/ = to sign up and for more info. Note the below presentation wast# originally scheduled for Sept. 1st.   / 8:30 am Registration and Continental Breakfast  " 9:00 am Welcome and Introductions . 9:05 am AlphaServer Roadmap and EV7z Overview 6 10:00 am AlphaServer EV7z Engineering and Performance  10:30 am Break w/ 10:45 am Integrity Server Roadmap and Overview c* 11:15 am Alpha Customer Assurance Program 3 11:45 am Lunch and Drawing of an HP Digital Camera n  D 12:00 pm New York Metro LUG Check in and old-style DECUS Networking.' 12:30 pm Welcome and announcements, HP.i? 12:45 pm Gary McCready, NYMLUG: Introductions, LUG Business ande7 Announcements, HP World update from those who attended.nD 1:00 pm John Apps, HP: Brief Q/A Session regarding Transactional Web Services on OpenVMS0@ 1:15 pm Robert Lyons, Consultant, Resilient Systems Inc.: How to8 Assimilate an Integrity Server into your OpenVMS Cluster4 2:00 pm Keith Parris, HP: Industry Trends in Storage' 3:15 pm Wrapup, Givaways and networkinga  < Please see below for NYMLUG session details and speaker bios  D To attend either or both the morning and afternoon sessions, you may sign up at the HP event page,hB http://www.hp.com/large/events/2004/ev7z/ or, if you would rather,
 send email tom! NYMLUG-RSVP (at) yahoogroups.com,rD including company name, when you plan to arrive and a way to contactB you, if not by your sending email address. You response, includingB the sending email address, will not be visible in any public list.  C For the future announcements and to sign up for our moderated emaily list, please go to% http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYMLUG/p7 To assist in planning future meetings and other events, F please send an email to Gary at the address below to join our steering
 committee.   Thanks,b --Gary McCreadyi4 President, Encompass New York Metro Local User Group encompass (a) McCready.com      	 John Appsr# Strategic Planning and Architecture 3 Workshops and Consulting, Business Critical Servers  Hewlett-Packarde  E John Apps has been designing, building and supporting high-end online E transaction processing  (OLTP) systems for over 30 years, the last 25  with digital, Compaq and HP.   9 The recent years have seen a concentration in the area ofeF standards-based message-oriented middleware and Enterprise InformationB System (EIS) integration  along with the appropriate platforms and5 technologies such as message queuing,  Java and .NET.0  1F Service-oriented Architectures have begun to play an important role inC the  above space and it is here that John has concentrated his mostRD recent efforts. These include a recent 4-hour hands-on session at HPB World in Chicago in which students were able to build their on WebC Service applications, including something still very unique  in the % industry: Transactional Web Services.b    ? How to Assimilate an Integrity Server into your OpenVMS Cluster 0 Robert Lyons, Consultant, Resilient Systems Inc.  E The integration of an IA64 server into an existing production OpenVMS F environment is not without its own hints and kinks.  Interconnects andE devices that are supported on one OpenVMS system architecture may notlF be supported or even available on another.  This talk will explore theF range of supported configurations and what can be done to pave the way; for migration or coexistence of mixed architecture systems.,  A This content is built upon experience gained during qualificationaF testing and field experience.  Configuration details will be presented? that illustrate the integration of the old with the new OpenVMS C architecture platform.  In addition, I will discuss the many systemsC parameters that have changed between the existing OpenVMS version 7a0 systems and OpenVMS version 8 Integrity servers.  ? Rob Lyons is an independent consultant specializing in businessgC critical computing using VMSclusters, Storage Area Networks and the F Charon-VAX emulator.  Prior to forming his own company in 1999, he was> a Systems Engineer at Digital/Compaq.  He has over 15 years ofE experience in designing, managing, and tuning complex systems, gained F from being a member of the customer services systems engineering team.     Industry Trends in Storage   Keith Parris Systems/Software Engineern- HP Services - Multivendor Systems Engineeringo Hewlett-Packard   E Keith Parris is a Systems/Software Engineer for HP on the MultivendorcC Systems Engineering team within HP Services, doing fly-and-fix workhD and consulting for mission-critical HP customer sites. He frequentlyB speaks at HP user group meetings around the world. He has providedD telephone support at the Customer Support Center in Colorado, workedE as an engineer in the VAXcluster Systems Engineering group, worked onnF OpenVMS Cluster code as a developer within OpenVMS Engineering, workedB on RAID software within Storage Engineering, and then worked for 6F years as an independent consultant before rejoining his former Digital/ colleagues just in time for the HP acquisition.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 00:38:29 GMT-  From: John Santos <john@egh.com># Subject: Re: Problem with LPD queue + Message-ID: <9CN%c.16452$x12.9911@trnddc05>    Dr. Otto Titze wrote:o" > Thanks to Jeffrey, John and Phil > H > the problem with my TCPIP$TELNETSYM queue was, I used the wrong port. J > Formerly with UCX$TELNETSYM it was 4242. Now with 9100 everything is ok  > and the queue is working.0 > 	 > Regards  > Otto  D The port number used depends on the printer (or the lan card in the C printer).  9100 is used by most or all HP printers.  However, other . brands of printers may different port numbers.  B There exist boxes that adapt parallel or USB printers to Ethernet.@ Some have built-in LPD servers, others use telnet, and some haveA both.  The telnet models may use 9100 or they may use a differentNE port.  (We have a 3 or 4 port device that uses 9100, 9101, 9102, etc.s+ for the telnet interfaces to each printer.)   > I have an HP5550 printer (USB) at home that I plugged into theD parallel port of my Apple Airport base station.  They don't documentA what protocol they use to talk to the printer, but I just guessed B Telnet on port 9100, and it works (from VMS using TCPWare's telnetE symbiont, as well as from a W2K PC, and of course from my Powerbook).nA This is a function of the Airport printer support implementation,a? not of the particular printer.  (USB knows nothing of telnet or" TCP/IP ports.)  A So 4242 was probably right for something.  Almost everything I'veiB seen recently is 9100, but I do have one printer on 5002.  I guess everyone is imitating HP.d   -- h John Santosu Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:34:40 -0400 * From: Joel Loveless <joell@mindspring.com> Subject: Tapesys consolidation8 Message-ID: <dbnuj0tnbntrsh8qstk4taoii8rjd06vod@4ax.com>  @ We have recently retired several VMS clusters, each with its ownE Tapesys master database. We are trying to consolidate those databases F on one system, merging the tape master database and copying the backup@ history files. Has anyone done this before? If so, do you have aD procedure? We have Tapesys version 6.1.2 on the systems. Each system. has a unique set of tape numbers, fortunately.   Any help would be appriciated.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:08:43 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>" Subject: Re: Tapesys consolidation/ Message-ID: <00A37946.9372E6C3.1@tachysoft.com>t  + >From: Joel Loveless <joell@mindspring.com>u >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: Tapesys consolidationt9 >Message-ID: <dbnuj0tnbntrsh8qstk4taoii8rjd06vod@4ax.com>g    A >We have recently retired several VMS clusters, each with its ownpF >Tapesys master database. We are trying to consolidate those databases5 >on one system, merging the tape master database and V   can be done (soon), see belowi   >copying the backupg >history files.   L currently cannot be done.  You will need to create new history set names and( just copy the directories straight over.   >Has anyone done this before?   O Database merge currently not possible with 6.1.x.  It's not a flat file like inuK 5.2.x.  The main tape database has pointers to the separate location, media>O type, pool, and container databases.  If you just concatenate them together, asa  in 5.2, you wind up with a mess.   >If so, do you have as >procedure?   M Not at this time, but I am working on a merge program.  It will merge severalhN databases together, and will resolve all the locations, etc. at the same time.O You just specify the directories containing the databases you wish to merge and- the output directory.  0  N Other customers have asked for this, so it is on the engineering list.  I haveM completed the basic program, skipping the alias system in this first cut, andr it should be available soon.  / >We have Tapesys version 6.1.2 on the systems. l  K Wow, that's several years old. The current version is 6.1.20.  The database N merge should be available on .21, though you will be able to get it early as a! minipatch if you are running .20.s   >Each system/ >has a unique set of tape numbers, fortunately.r  N That will make it easier.  The merge will abort if it finds dupes.  Stuff likeJ that has to be corrected in the original databases before merging, but you won't have to.  N Another issue is the locations, media types, pools, containers.  The same nameK is allowed in multiple input databases, but the definition must agree.  For I instance, if location OVER_THERE is onsite in one database and offsite in-' another, that will also cause an abort.t  N So you need to start looking for stuff like this now, to avoid having to do it just before the merge.   >a >Any help would be appriciated.-  N Check with SP32 customer support periodically to see when the merge program is ready for release.   Wayne,8 current developer for all Software Partners VMS productsO ===============================================================================nN Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O ===============================================================================aP Larry(sniffing):"I smell something awful." Moe:"Yeah, well don't brag about it."   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:11:41 +0100 % From: Alan Fay <alan.fay@veritas.com>m@ Subject: VERITAS Netbackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP1 release now available4 Message-ID: <chnp2k$dg8$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>   ------------------- The VERITAS Netbackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP1 Releasea  @ The downloadable 5.0 MP1 (Maintenance Pack One) upgrade release ? is now available for both VAX and Alpha. This release supports p= 5.0 and 5.1 MP1 master and media servers (UNIX and Windows). y  7 Full release notes are available from VERITAS support:-e  J ftp://ftp.emea.support.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/     nbu_v5_0_vms_pdf.zip   Alan Fay VERITAS Software Corporation e Roseville Engineeringt   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 20:59:18 -0700 - From: contracer11@uol.com.br (Shiva MahaDeva) D Subject: Re: VERITAS Netbackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP1 release now available= Message-ID: <ddf392ea.0409081959.2cc88def@posting.google.com>y  G I'm using NetBackup Datacenter to make Solaris, Tru64 and WNT backups. nL Need I to buy a license to use this 5.0 MP1 ? I'd like backup VMS in Solaris robot using NBU...  a Alan Fay <alan.fay@veritas.com> wrote in message news:<chnp2k$dg8$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>...a > ------------------/ > The VERITAS Netbackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP1 Releaseh > B > The downloadable 5.0 MP1 (Maintenance Pack One) upgrade release A > is now available for both VAX and Alpha. This release supports  ? > 5.0 and 5.1 MP1 master and media servers (UNIX and Windows). c > 9 > Full release notes are available from VERITAS support:-b > L > ftp://ftp.emea.support.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/ >     nbu_v5_0_vms_pdf.zip > 
 > Alan Fay > VERITAS Software Corporation o > Roseville Engineeringy   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:03:18 -0500e2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: Virus writers and VMS+ Message-ID: <413FB9E6.4378118A@comcast.net>t   Simon Clubley wrote: > ! > > From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@...>  > >b > > Doc. > > --K > > OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. K > > http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.c > K > Hackers may or may not prefer VMS, but virus writers certainly know aboutuG > VMS. The following is one of the possible responses that the Mydoom.M>6 > virus sends in it's false non-delivery notification: > ? > <<< 400-aturner; %MAIL-E-OPENOUT, error opening !AS as outputl5 > <<< 400-aturner; -RMS-E-CRE, ACP file create failedc= > <<< 400-aturner; -SYSTEM-F-EXDISKQUOTA, disk quota exceeded  > 1 > I wonder why VMS error messages were selected ?   G Perhaps because VMS is known to be used as a user-workstation o.s., and G the VMSmail user agent issues such messages under select circumstances,8E and because there's so much bragging about it being invulnerable they:@ want to think that it had to be provided for as if the bug could actually manage such a breach.   Dunno...   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 02:50:11 +0800-, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>& Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity0 Message-ID: <87y8jka93w.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  " John Santos <john@egh.com> writes:    E >> I believe that standards in Florida have improved.  The problem isfB >> that the standards are for new construction.  Until all the oldC >> stuff is destroyed there will still be damage.  Might take a fewo >> more hurricanes.E  @ Story I was told some time ago. Chap arrived in Broome, a former@ perling town in the NW of WA, now a big tourist destination, andF fronts the counter in the all new shiny multi story hotel. Much humingF and harhing, and he is told that they have screwed up his booking, andD only have the old cottages available, but he can have one for singleD room rate, grovel, grovel etc. At the time, there was a cyclone 300mE off the coast, heading in and building up really well. He smiled, and0? said that would be fine. pause. The old cottages haved survived 9 cyclones before. He left a very thoughtfull staff behind.p  B >>> Australia learned its lesson from cyclone tracy that destroyedD >>> Darwin on christmas eve 1974. (necessitating airlift to evacuateB >>> the town the next day sicne there was no water or power left).  C > Well, part of the reason why Andrew was so destructive (including F > destroying the National Hurricane Center near Miami, which was rightE > in the path of the eye), was that was so long (about 30 years IIRC) 1 > since the previous major hurricane hit Florida.h  D Tracy was such a disaster because for over 20 years the cyclones hadE skirted around Darwin and standards had dropped, no one bothered, andoD no one, or very few had been through a cyclone before. Plus the Xmas: booze ups etc where in full swing, so guess what got done.  B It was total bedlam at Perth AP, plus people being put up all over
 the place.  < My `boss' at a PPOE did the new building codes that resulted/ from it. His photo collection was not pretty :(d  . -- h< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:13:55 -0400# From: "don" <LakeGator@hotmail.com>-& Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity0 Message-ID: <ILqdnWT1OZXVPaLcRVn-iQ@comcast.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:413DD48C.8A0ECACA@teksavvy.com...  H Sorry to point out your very poor assumptions but the facts and logic is almost totally incorrect.@      E We, in Florida, may not be nearly as smart as JF but we do understandnE hurricanes to a certain degree.  The buildings are generally built towL conform to hurricane standards which continue to evolve and improve.  I don'J t know how much of the damage was caused by wind and how much by water.  IF also don't know the ratio of damage to conforming versus nonconformingJ structures.   As JF correctly points out small objects become projectiles.J His example of a 2x4 from a mobile home is cute but tree branches are moreI common.  6 trees in my yard fell during the 2 days we had hurricane force A winds.  Luckily none of them did any significant property damage.aJ Unfortunately, my next door neighbor lost 2 cars destroyed by a single oakH falling on his garage.  No amount of building code can protect against aD huge tree falling on a small building.  Other homes in our town wereD likewise damaged by falling trees.  I have seen very little cases ofL structural failure even on old mobile homes that are lake front and took theK full brunt of the wind.  I am sure smart people like JF would just have allBK trees cut down but we dumb crackers like nature and to listen to the birds.a      L I have lived here for most of my life and this was my fourth hurricane.   AsL experts like JF can attest, every storm is different.  Frances was big, slowH moving and boring.   As anyone who looked at the storm could see, it wasJ huge.  More importantly the diameter of hurricane force winds was over 300L km.  As it came ashore there were hurricane force winds from West Palm Beach to almost Daytona Beach.      J I do consulting for a state agency who used to have VMS.  They are now allL Unix and Windows, of course, and dumping hp as fast as possible.   They haveJ 7 data centers dispersed over this very large state.  Frances visited 5 ofJ the data centers as it spent 4 days in state.  The idea that having 2 dataI centers 400 km apart would assure not being impacted by a hurricane showsaD gross ignorance of the fact that a hurricane MOVES, sometimes a lot.      H Finally, we may be dumb down here but every data center I have seen hereK that contains important data is hardened and protected.  The state agency IbK mentioned has power generators at the 3 key data centers.  None of them has K suffered a loss of service in the 2 hurricanes so far this season.  I don't,B believe any serious data centers are placed in the mobile homes JF
 discussed.      H As others have pointed out, we in the hurricane affected areas are stillK trying to get things back together.  Power is still out to a lot of people.hL Advertising about VMS being better at dealing with disaster would be a waste of ink at this point.h       > Larry Kilgallen wrote:3 > > What is the current limit on Cluster distance ?- >- >-I > It is well above what its competitors are. And I believe it is at 400kmn rightj0 > now (Keith Paris can confirm or correct this). > F > > Certainly there were multiple places in Florida hit, and one would# > > not want to have all sites hit.r >cI > No matter how big Frances or any other storm is, because VMS allows forn the L > greatest distance between 2 data centres, it is the best solution.  If youL > build your data centres to survive flooding, then of of the 2 data centres? > 400km apart should be able to survive the actual wind damage.o >tG > Remember that in a hurricane, the strongest winds are in a relativelyt focusedsJ > area near the centre with winds diminishing significantly as you go away fromG > the centre. In the case of florida, shoddy construction is really thet cause I > for all the damage. A mobile home becomes a projectile factory. 200km/hd windI > may not destroy your home, but a 2*4 let loose by a mobile home that isrB > carried to your home at 200km/h will punch through a brick wall. >tL > I went through a category 4 cyclone in Australia in 1996 (Olivia), and theI > town (karatha) had been built to australian cyclone standards and theren waslB > barely any damage the next morning (except for fallen branches). >-H > That a weak hurricane cause so much wind damage to florida should ring some% > bells as to construction standards.h >[J > Australia learned its lesson from cyclone tracy that destroyed Darwin onJ > christmas eve 1974. (necessitating airlift to evacuate the town the next days* > sicne there was no water or power left). >eL > It seems that Florida never learns its lesson. The problem is that even ifE > your home is well built, if your neighbour isn't built to hurricane@
 standards,E > it will become a projectile factory and that will damage your home.  > L > And this comes back to my original message: NOW would be the time to placeK > some ads about VMS disaster tolerance capabilities because it is NOW that I > floridians really think about such things. In a few weeks, they will go  backG > to living normally and forget that they are in the path of hirricanes  every year.t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:42:42 -0400# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t& Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity, Message-ID: <SeydnQO_JMySKKLcRVn-jw@igs.net>  
 don wrote:< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message( > news:413DD48C.8A0ECACA@teksavvy.com... >xG > Sorry to point out your very poor assumptions but the facts and logicr > is almost totally incorrect. >L >x >IG > We, in Florida, may not be nearly as smart as JF but we do understandaG > hurricanes to a certain degree.  The buildings are generally built touF > conform to hurricane standards which continue to evolve and improve.F > I don' t know how much of the damage was caused by wind and how muchG > by water.  I also don't know the ratio of damage to conforming versustF > nonconforming structures.   As JF correctly points out small objectsE > become projectiles. His example of a 2x4 from a mobile home is cute.D > but tree branches are more common.  6 trees in my yard fell duringD > the 2 days we had hurricane force winds.  Luckily none of them didG > any significant property damage. Unfortunately, my next door neighboriB > lost 2 cars destroyed by a single oak falling on his garage.  NoF > amount of building code can protect against a huge tree falling on aC > small building.  Other homes in our town were likewise damaged byeE > falling trees.  I have seen very little cases of structural failurehF > even on old mobile homes that are lake front and took the full bruntB > of the wind.  I am sure smart people like JF would just have allF > trees cut down but we dumb crackers like nature and to listen to the > birds. >F >p >i> > I have lived here for most of my life and this was my fourthG > hurricane.   As experts like JF can attest, every storm is different.sD > Frances was big, slow moving and boring.   As anyone who looked atE > the storm could see, it was huge.  More importantly the diameter of F > hurricane force winds was over 300 km.  As it came ashore there wereE > hurricane force winds from West Palm Beach to almost Daytona Beach.c >e >i >oD > I do consulting for a state agency who used to have VMS.  They are@ > now all Unix and Windows, of course, and dumping hp as fast asE > possible.   They have 7 data centers dispersed over this very large-E > state.  Frances visited 5 of the data centers as it spent 4 days in G > state.  The idea that having 2 data centers 400 km apart would assure-E > not being impacted by a hurricane shows gross ignorance of the factg* > that a hurricane MOVES, sometimes a lot. >R >J > E > Finally, we may be dumb down here but every data center I have seen@C > here that contains important data is hardened and protected.  The>A > state agency I mentioned has power generators at the 3 key datay@ > centers.  None of them has suffered a loss of service in the 2B > hurricanes so far this season.  I don't believe any serious data6 > centers are placed in the mobile homes JF discussed. >k >  > D > As others have pointed out, we in the hurricane affected areas areD > still trying to get things back together.  Power is still out to aC > lot of people. Advertising about VMS being better at dealing withe1 > disaster would be a waste of ink at this point.r    H Am I to take it that you believe the corollary to remarks made by othersH regarding advertising VMS for disaster tolerance is "Why bother at all"?  J Not every company operating in Florida is headquartered in Florida....someK companies might get the message that VMS for disaster tolerance is a prettyd& good idea if it were conveyed to them.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 13:12:19 -0500 4 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)? Subject: RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all 3 Message-ID: <blCQzTqCUuMw@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  q In article <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE8605AED1C1@lespaul.process.com>, Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com> writes:o >>  >> [Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:]> >> Please indulge my curiosity - does your ISP have a problem  >> with you running anA >> email server?  If not, can you share with us your experience, J >> either in thisc@ >> forum, or privately?  I have a MicroVAX 3100-96 that I would  >> like to put toi >> work (running TCPware). > ; > Technically, my ISP's terms prohibit what I'm doing here,d5 > but I got a verbal OK from their chief egghead that = > they don't really enforce the policy unless someone becomest > a problem.   > 3 > I'll answer you privately with some more details.  > 
 > -Mike Duffyh  D Speakeasy, http://www.speakeasy.net/refer/177930 , let me have three@ static IPs.  I've been running a couple of webservers and a mailD server on my home Alpha(s) for a couple of years now, and they don't have a problem with it.s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:15:12 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>S? Subject: RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after allp9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIGEDKDMAA.tom@kednos.com>    you need to find a new ISP.e   < -----Original Message------ < From: Mike Duffy [mailto:Duffy@process.com] - < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:34 AM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComaA < Subject: RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after alla <  <  < >o! < > [Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:]s? < > Please indulge my curiosity - does your ISP have a problem r < > with you running an B < > email server?  If not, can you share with us your experience,  < > either in thisA < > forum, or privately?  I have a MicroVAX 3100-96 that I would a < > like to put to < > work (running TCPware).0 < ; < Technically, my ISP's terms prohibit what I'm doing here,a5 < but I got a verbal OK from their chief egghead that = < they don't really enforce the policy unless someone becomesi < a problem.   < 3 < I'll answer you privately with some more details.  < 
 < -Mike Duffy  <  < ---n( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B < Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 <  ---a& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 19:52:51 GMTu( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)? Subject: Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after all/* Message-ID: <2q968jFt029aU2@uni-berlin.de>  6 In article <00A37891.F2430492@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu>,O 	winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) writes:/e > In article <T4t%c.21419$vy.9144@attbi_s52>, brad@rabbit.dnsalias.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:ca >>In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIMECKDMAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:o >>!snip!D >>!< Please indulge my curiosity - does your ISP have a problem with >>!< you running an_B >>!< email server?  If not, can you share with us your experience, >>!< either in this F >>!< forum, or privately?  I have a MicroVAX 3100-96 that I would like >>!< to put to >>!< work (running TCPware).H >>!Not sure why you think there is a problem.  You basically just rent aH >>!line, get a static ip and have your MX records point to it.  Your ISP+ >>!should be able to take care of all that.2 >>L >>True, but I'm used to an ISP that hands out dynamic addresses only - I wasM >>"hoping" that there was a way to cope with that scenario.  Perhaps not.	:-)  > Q > There is.  Use www.dyndns.org or another dynamic DNS site.  You reserve a name,eP > you tell them whenever your numeric-IP changes - and there are ways to do thisH > automatically - and your new numeric-IP propagates around accordingly. >   M Don't expect that to work if you actually expect anyone to accept your email.eH Most places today reject mail where the name presented doesn't match the@ reverse dns lookup, which they won't using a "dynamic DNS site".M It is also very common to reject any site that maps to a dynamic address pool  as returned by ORBS sites.  G Our SPAM dropped by over 90% when we introduced just these two methods.    bill     -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 21:01:25 GMT  From: healyzh@aracnet.comj? Subject: Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after allF, Message-ID: <chnrv5024ip@enews3.newsguy.com>  " John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:M > We had a VS4000/60 a long while ago acting as a dedicated db server. It wasN? > up continuously for about 3 years. It was connected to a UPS.h  H It's been my experience over the last few years that having an UPS wouldM have allowed me to keep my PWS 433au up for considerably longer than I have. dL That is with the exception of this last year when we've had a couple of longJ power outages (and a self induced stability problem).  One of these years K I'll break down and get an UPS or three, but at the moment, I simply don't e have the room :^(    	Zane    ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:09:04 +0000 (UTC), From: lewis@PROBE.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)? Subject: Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after alle. Message-ID: <chnvu0$edh$2@newslocal.mitre.org>  r bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes in article <2q968jFt029aU2@uni-berlin.de> dated 8 Sep 2004 19:52:51 GMT:N >Don't expect that to work if you actually expect anyone to accept your email.I >Most places today reject mail where the name presented doesn't match the  >reverse dns lookup, a  J I haven't had any problem like that.  I have a static IP from my ISP and aJ domain through godaddy.com.  The IP maps to the ISP's domain.  Heck, TCPIPH services even supports multiple e-mail domains on a single IP.  Somebody% must use that feature (legitimately).-  - >which they won't using a "dynamic DNS site".:N >It is also very common to reject any site that maps to a dynamic address pool >as returned by ORBS sites.r >nH >Our SPAM dropped by over 90% when we introduced just these two methods.  L You could unplug your server and your spam would drop by 100%.  That doesn't mean it's good practice.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Sep 2004 00:12:46 GMTA( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)? Subject: Re: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after allo* Message-ID: <2q9lfuFt9o8hU1@uni-berlin.de>  . In article <chnvu0$edh$2@newslocal.mitre.org>,/ 	lewis@PROBE.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) writes: t > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes in article <2q968jFt029aU2@uni-berlin.de> dated 8 Sep 2004 19:52:51 GMT:O >>Don't expect that to work if you actually expect anyone to accept your email.iJ >>Most places today reject mail where the name presented doesn't match the >>reverse dns lookup,  > L > I haven't had any problem like that.  I have a static IP from my ISP and aL > domain through godaddy.com.  The IP maps to the ISP's domain.  Heck, TCPIPJ > services even supports multiple e-mail domains on a single IP.  Somebody' > must use that feature (legitimately).P  K You don't have a dynamic address, that's the point.  That protects you fromfK ORBS. But if you lie about who you are then other sites will reject you for.G it.  If you have a legitimate MX that maps to your real IP address thenm your OK.   > . >>which they won't using a "dynamic DNS site".O >>It is also very common to reject any site that maps to a dynamic address pool0 >>as returned by ORBS sites. >>I >>Our SPAM dropped by over 90% when we introduced just these two methods.d > N > You could unplug your server and your spam would drop by 100%.  That doesn't > mean it's good practice.  G Not accepting email from machines that should not be sending it is goodd practice.  B   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   v   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 05:07:38 +0000 (UTC)P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)? Subject: RE: Well, my VAX won't make a year of uptime after allg$ Message-ID: <chooep$2g6$2@online.de>  D In article <T4t%c.21419$vy.9144@attbi_s52>, brad@rabbit.dnsalias.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes: l  L > True, but I'm used to an ISP that hands out dynamic addresses only - I wasI > "hoping" that there was a way to cope with that scenario.  Perhaps not.Y 	:-)  F Check out http://www.dynaccess.de/ (only in German, I believe).  They D are similar to http://www.dyndns.org/, but offer more features.  In I particular, they offer an SMTP relay based on your (dynamic) IP address, oE which of course they know.  You can thus send via a non-black-listed eE relay without relying on SMTP authentification etc.  Also no problem h receiving my mail locally.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Sep 2004 14:08:13 -0500r; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?a3 Message-ID: <$nig9ilfO44J@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  i In article <jf9uj01l7lbs1fsf881jsp11512pkf6r3j@4ax.com>, Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:h > @ > "Supercomputer" is a term used very loosely by some people.  I: > remember when IBM claimed the 3090 was a "supercomputer"  H    I remember an article in which VAX 11/780's were called "mainframes".@    Although DEC called them "super-mini" they were larger than aC    refrigerator.  (And the article refered to a collection of 6 and     8 cabinet 11/780's).t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:46:00 -0400s. From: Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used? 8 Message-ID: <mpnuj0djpjlehq6ktdutforaqqtqrjivnc@4ax.com>  3 On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:06:33 +0100, Rodrigo Venturah <yoda@isr.ist.utl.pt> wrote:  A >>>>>> "Mike" == Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:n > G >In the 80s and 90s, no doubt that workstation CPU, like RISC and maybetG >VAX, where far more faster than current consumer PC CPUs. But nowadayssF >things are a little bit different. Intel state-of-the-art CPUs run at >almost 4GHz!   B Clock rate and speed aren't really related, except within a designE family maybe.  For instance, the AXP (Alpha) chip is much faster thanaB the Pentium, even when run at the same clock rate.  The DEC designB gets more done with each clock cycle than the Intel one does.  YouC can't compare CPU speed just by looking at clock rate...you need to  see how it handles actual work.e  B There are still consumer PC chips (like the P4 and AMD Athlon) andF higher performance, more expensive chips, like the Xeon, Itanium, etc.< that are reserved for professional workstations and servers.  A BTW - your statement about redundancy in mainframes is a bit off.nE Redundancy is a relatively recent invention.  The PDP-10, which was auC mainframe by anybody's definition at the time (hundreds of users atuA once, filled a large room, sucked power like crazy, had a crew of D attendants, etc.) had no real redundancy.  They came down if a powerD supply in a memory box got off a bit, and most only had 1 CPU.  I've4 seen them go down for days due to a relatively minorA problem...combined with faulty replacement parts.  Led to the olde joke:e  D Q: How many DEC field service technicians does it take to fix a flat tire?a  B A: Five.  Four to lift the vehicle, and one to swap tires 'till he finds the bad one.   Q: How long will it take?a  6 A: Depends on how many flats they brought with them...  
 -- Mike B.
 -- Mike B.  
 '04 FLSTCI  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.n%   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM...e@ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 15:35:03 -0400a. From: Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used? 8 Message-ID: <e3muj0h1bntovb5cm2ge9pi3dv1df28prg@4ax.com>  B On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:41:16 +0000 (UTC), m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:h  j >In article <jf9uj01l7lbs1fsf881jsp11512pkf6r3j@4ax.com>, Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:I >> On 7 Sep 2004 23:14:35 -0700, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)C	 >> wrote:Y >> uA >> "Supercomputer" is a term used very loosely by some people.  IsI >> remember when IBM claimed the 3090 was a "supercomputer"...despite the G >> fact that it maxed out at about 25 MFLOPS at a time when a Cray X/MPa >> 48 could hit 890 MFLOPS,  >s >Is this a single CPU number ?  F I don't know what they had in a 3090.  The X/MP 48 had 4 CPUs, and theA 890 MFLOPS number was using all of them (it was done by one of mye? co-workers for a pre-sales demo using customer-supplied FortranhE code...with some mods by us).  The "48" in an X/MP's model name tells(C you the CPU count and memory size: 48 = 4 CPUs and 8 million 64-bith6 words of memory.  The one I worked on at NRL was a 12.  / >> and when a 1 nanosecond decrease in the CrayaI >> clock cycle time (from 9.5 ns to 8.5 ns) resulted in a 56 MFLOPS speedoF >> increase...that's equivalent to *two* 3090s.  Claiming a 3090 was aD >> "supercomputer", which the Cray unquestionably was, would be like= >> entering a kid's go-cart in the Indy 500.  It's laughable.i > H >Well, to be fair you should add that those Crays used to be specialized> >vector computers whereas the 3090 was a general purpose box -  D Cray's were general purpose computers as well.  They had both scalarB and vector capabilities, with the vector operations being about 10F times faster than scalar (by nearly eliminating fetch/store delays andD reducing instruction decoding times for repeated operations mostly).  Q >and probably quite a bit cheaper than a Cray (as far as multimillion $ computersc >could be called "cheap").  E Not sure what a 3090 cost, but they weren't cheap either.  Cost isn'tyE really the point though.  The point was that IBM claimed to be in thesD same class, and they weren't even close.  A kid's go cart is cheaperE than an Indy car, but that isn't really releveant when they start thea> race, and doesn't make the go kart a contender in the class in	 question.r  - >For a "little" extra money you could hook upqH >a vector "coprocessor" (per CPU) which could deliver around 100 MFLOPS,O >IIRC. This makes it less laughable than you suggest, since e.g. any universitynE >running a 3090 anyway could add vector facilities without having to s >buy a full Cray.3  C What would it cost to get a 3090 that could do 890 MFLOPS?  If suchu was possible at all?  D I know who the competition was for Cray at the time.  IBM wasn't it.D Fujitsu and Hitachi, with a few early worries from CDC's spinoff ETAA (which ended up buying Crays to fulfill contracts when the ETA-10yA never got working (melted itself I heard ;-), but never IBM.  IBMeE wasn't in the supercomputer arena...though some of their ads tried toe claim otherwise.  C >The same logic, however, holds also for vectorized vs scalar code,oB >so your Cray was only worth its money for highly ( maybe >> 80% ) >vectorizable code.e  > Perhaps, but vector processing is really common in science andE engineering (lots of array operations), which is where supercomputerseE are needed.  With business processing it's usually more a case of I/OuD speed than raw CPU power that matters.  You are usually doing simple@ things to lots of data, not complex things to a limited dataset.  B Cray also had multiprocessing down pat...spreading a given programC across several CPUs with little or no need for programmers to worryoE about it...the compilers took care of it automatically.  If there wasgA somthing in the code that would prevent this from being done, thet) compilers would note it in the listing.  a  E Cray also had a really efficient OS (COS), with some hardware supportc? for doing things like figuring out which software interrupts ton9 service next (for system service calls...dispatch was oneTB instruction...it was based on a bit vector).  If VMS is a CadillacB with ride comfort and lots of gadgets, and MS-DOS is a go kart for? playing around with in your spare time, then COS was a top fuelpE dragster...anything that didn't help it go fast was stripped off, andb2 comfort weasn't a factor considered in the design.  9 Even when running scalar only a Cray was faster than mostoC computers...that 8.5 ns clock rate, separate ALUs that could run atoF the same time in many cases (allowing instruction execution overlap ifC coded correctly, and the compilers were pretty good at doing that),nF and a bunch of other techniques since copied by the better single chipF CPUs, along with use of ECL, short path lengths, no busses to conflictD (all point-to-point wiring to connect modules), etc., and the result@ was the fastest computers on the planet for many years.  NeatestA looking ones too...both the "bench seat" Cray 1 and X/MPs and thee "aquarium" Cray 2 types.  1 >The fraction of such codes is probably even less=B >than that of parallel codes. Which might be a reason why we don'tV >see that many vector machines anymore these days (apart from Earth Simulator maybe).   D If you consider all software, maybe.  In the science and engineeringF area I doubt that that's true.  Arrays and operations on them are veryF common.  There's a reason the Livermore Loops and Whetstone benchmarks were heavy on them.a  
 -- Mike B.
 -- Mike B.  
 '04 FLSTCI  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.3%   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM...-@ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:51:38 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> + Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used?s9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIIEDNDMAA.tom@kednos.com>l   < -----Original Message-----7 < From: Mike Bartman [mailto:omni@foolie.omniphile.com]e. < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 12:46 PM < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como- < Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?- <  < 5 < On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:06:33 +0100, Rodrigo Venturao < <yoda@isr.ist.utl.pt> wrote: < C < >>>>>> "Mike" == Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:b < >eI < >In the 80s and 90s, no doubt that workstation CPU, like RISC and maybeeI < >VAX, where far more faster than current consumer PC CPUs. But nowadays H < >things are a little bit different. Intel state-of-the-art CPUs run at < >almost 4GHz!  < D < Clock rate and speed aren't really related, except within a designG < family maybe.  For instance, the AXP (Alpha) chip is much faster than D < the Pentium, even when run at the same clock rate.  The DEC designD < gets more done with each clock cycle than the Intel one does.  YouE < can't compare CPU speed just by looking at clock rate...you need toW! < see how it handles actual work.s  H I think you got that backwards, it takes two to three Alpha instructionsK for each Pentium (or VAX for that matter), but other than that I agree with  your assertion.I < D < There are still consumer PC chips (like the P4 and AMD Athlon) andH < higher performance, more expensive chips, like the Xeon, Itanium, etc.> < that are reserved for professional workstations and servers. < C < BTW - your statement about redundancy in mainframes is a bit off.:G < Redundancy is a relatively recent invention.  The PDP-10, which was anE < mainframe by anybody's definition at the time (hundreds of users at C < once, filled a large room, sucked power like crazy, had a crew oftF < attendants, etc.) had no real redundancy.  They came down if a powerF < supply in a memory box got off a bit, and most only had 1 CPU.  I've6 < seen them go down for days due to a relatively minorC < problem...combined with faulty replacement parts.  Led to the oldn < joke:o  B The 360 had triply redundant cpu's implementing  voting procedure.   < F < Q: How many DEC field service technicians does it take to fix a flat < tire?m < D < A: Five.  Four to lift the vehicle, and one to swap tires 'till he < finds the bad one. <  < Q: How long will it take?e < 8 < A: Depends on how many flats they brought with them... <  < -- Mike B. < -- Mike B. <  < '04 FLSTCI < B < ----------------------------------------------------------------? <   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.-' <   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM... B < ---------------------------------------------------------------- <  < ---:( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B < Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 <  ---o& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:20:14 +0000 (UTC)6 From: James Prevatt <jmprevDONT@SPAMopenvms-rocks.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?t8 Message-ID: <slrn4cjuqbr.ocj.jmprev@otaku.freeshell.org>  + >> Windows can have very high availability.h > 2 >    that requires that you don't actually use it. >   9 Even that doesn't necessarily guarantee against the BSoD!y   -- 0
 James Prevatts  jmprevDONT@SPAMopenvms-rocks.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:01:57 GMTs2 From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?r. Message-ID: <pjL%c.134042$9d6.60853@attbi_s54>   Tom Linden wrote:t > D > The 360 had triply redundant cpu's implementing  voting procedure. >   H Whoa.  The 360 family included one member, the 360/67, that had multipleD CPUs and some redundancy.  But most 360s were strictly monoprocessor systems. -- i Cheers, Bobs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:14:09 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>i+ Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used?e9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOEECDMAA.tom@kednos.com>d   < -----Original Message-----; < From: Bob Willard [mailto:BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net]h- < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:02 PM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com - < Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?A <p <  < Tom Linden wrote:l < >rF < > The 360 had triply redundant cpu's implementing  voting procedure. < >  <mJ < Whoa.  The 360 family included one member, the 360/67, that had multipleF < CPUs and some redundancy.  But most 360s were strictly monoprocessor
 < systems.  I From a programmming point of view they had one cpu, but from the hardware0 side@ they had three.  Remember, we were discussing redundancy not MP.   < --
 < Cheers, Bob  <C < ---r( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B < Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 <j ---R& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:40:38 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?a, Message-ID: <413FA67F.F6620AB3@teksavvy.com>  ! Mainframes have 2 selling points:r  J On a technical basis, I think that where IBM mainframes historically had aQ large edge was in IO throughput. (I think this could be debated nowadays though).t  L From a management point of view, it isn't so much the mainframe per say, butM the software that runs on it. If you are a bank and your banking software and N databases are already on the mainframe since they have always been there, thenI you are more likely to continue to run that solid software and either add M software to your mainframe, or connect some lesser machines to your mainframee' to make use of the mainframe databases.   M Consider banking web site or telephone applications. The web or telephone appnL may run on UNXI, but they connect to the IBM mainframe to perform the actualI transactions. Same for ATM and interbank networks which may run on tandemrM machines for total uptime, but the tandem ends up sending the transactions tot the IBM mainframe.  N Once you've built an ecosystem around your mainframe, it is quite difficult to* remove/change the heart of that ecosystem.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:18:05 -0500e+ From: Michael Jenkins <mwjenkins@excel.com>r+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?g8 Message-ID: <rtevj0t6fg4epm56bvoe2ur844v7rcvnd8@4ax.com>  M At my last assignment, the client company had six alpha machines, the largest3L being a GS1280.  At one particular installation, I monitored over 5000 (yes,P thousand) users logged in and 5000 concurrent processes, all running at the sameO time.  One operating system, OVMS 7.3, several applications, several databases, L per single alpha machine.  The O/S & the apps were the same on each machine.L The basic database structure was the same, only the contents were different.  L Personal Computers and/or "dumb" terminals were used by the users.  I do not7 know how many of either were being used at each site.  i  P But the question I have for those Windoze folks: how many Server boxes would youO have to use to achieve the same results?  All of the users being able to access ? the same databases for a particular region, at the same time?      MikeWJ  ) arjdombivli@indiatimes.com (ashok) wrote:r  
 >dear all, >r >n >sD >In the today's age of supercomputer ,why mainframes are still used?0 >which are the operating systems for mainframes?$ >How they are different from the PC?1 >which are the mainframe manufacturing companies?s >c# >sorry to trouble you like this....l >o >e >regds,d >ypj  & http://www.geocities.com/mwjenkins001/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:43:43 -0500 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used? + Message-ID: <413FC35F.A5463270@comcast.net>n   Michael Jenkins wrote: > O > At my last assignment, the client company had six alpha machines, the largestrN > being a GS1280.  At one particular installation, I monitored over 5000 (yes,R > thousand) users logged in and 5000 concurrent processes, all running at the sameQ > time.  One operating system, OVMS 7.3, several applications, several databases,tN > per single alpha machine.  The O/S & the apps were the same on each machine.N > The basic database structure was the same, only the contents were different. > N > Personal Computers and/or "dumb" terminals were used by the users.  I do not7 > know how many of either were being used at each site.t > R > But the question I have for those Windoze folks: how many Server boxes would youQ > have to use to achieve the same results?  All of the users being able to access ? > the same databases for a particular region, at the same time?e  F With the coming of VMware and some moderately beefy Intel servers, theH limits on scalability are moving in focus from the o.s. to the hardware.G True, the o.s.-es are not sufficiently robust to reliably scale to suchl@ levels. The hardware imposes some challenging limits of its own.   D.J.D.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:17:07 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>h+ Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used?lR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB45CC8A@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20s! > Sent: September 8, 2004 8:41 PMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comf- > Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?i >=20# > Mainframes have 2 selling points:w >=20< > On a technical basis, I think that where IBM mainframes=20 > historically had a< > large edge was in IO throughput. (I think this could be=20 > debated nowadays though).e >=20: > From a management point of view, it isn't so much the=20 > mainframe per say, but= > the software that runs on it. If you are a bank and your=20e > banking software andB > databases are already on the mainframe since they have always=20 > been there, then? > you are more likely to continue to run that solid software=20: > and either add@ > software to your mainframe, or connect some lesser machines=20 > to your mainframe<) > to make use of the mainframe databases.a >=20A > Consider banking web site or telephone applications. The web=20u > or telephone app> > may run on UNXI, but they connect to the IBM mainframe to=20 > perform the actual@ > transactions. Same for ATM and interbank networks which may=20 > run on tandemtB > machines for total uptime, but the tandem ends up sending the=20 > transactions toi > the IBM mainframe. >=20@ > Once you've built an ecosystem around your mainframe, it is=20 > quite difficult to, > remove/change the heart of that ecosystem. >=20   JF -=20t  " You have hit the nail on the head.  G Most Customers, vendors and propeller head analysts that think they can2G easily move a heavily customized application that has been finely tunedr< for 10-15-20+ years have no idea of what they are taking on.  $ I use the analogy of the iceberg.=20  F What you see on top of the water is the "grass is greener on the otherF side" stuff, but what is under the water is typically 10+ times largerH than what is on surface. This is all of the hidden gotchas that cause 18H month projects to turn into 36 month projects and then get cancelled for never delivering.y  F The mainframe folks have a very good understanding of this. Hence theyE typically look to enhance their applications and if required build inpG additional integration logic as required. They do not even pretend thateG they could not get better performance on other platforms. However, theyoH also know that to get there would take 2+ years and that is time they do	 not have.t  B The real key is that there is a level of experience, knowledge andF sophistication in the mainframe customer environment that is often not4 there in many UNIX/Windows (and yes some VMS) sites.   Regards0  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultante HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660B Fax: 613-591-4477o kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 00:51:13 -0400s. From: Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?a8 Message-ID: <gunvj0t3qte5sekht4293fnolpnla2ooq1@4ax.com>  E On 8 Sep 2004 14:08:13 -0500, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.orgg (Bob Koehler) wrote:  j >In article <jf9uj01l7lbs1fsf881jsp11512pkf6r3j@4ax.com>, Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes: >>  A >> "Supercomputer" is a term used very loosely by some people.  It; >> remember when IBM claimed the 3090 was a "supercomputer"  >tI >   I remember an article in which VAX 11/780's were called "mainframes".tA >   Although DEC called them "super-mini" they were larger than a D >   refrigerator.  (And the article refered to a collection of 6 and >   8 cabinet 11/780's).  7 Just about all computers at the time were larger than aiC refrigerator...that was about 1978 when the 11/780 was first built.o? At that time the only small computers were basically toys.  ThetE Commodore PET, the "Trash-80" (Radio Shack's TRS-80), the Imsai 8080,uC the Apple I, and maybe some S-100 bus machines that were verging onnC actually useful for more than playing with for fun and education.  p  F "Super-mini" was an apt term, as the "minis" were things like PDP-11s,> which were smaller in terms of memory capacity, CPU speed, andB sometimes even physical size (depending on the model and options).  
 -- Mike B.
 -- Mike B.  
 '04 FLSTCI  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.-%   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM...o@ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:23:03 -0500J2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>, Subject: Re: [OT]: The state of CS education* Message-ID: <413FBE87.D5472B5@comcast.net>   John Smith wrote:p > E > http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=291000693  G Fortunately, keeping a VMS system going doesn't take a PhD, just a good H head for the concepts and the ability to see how the pieces fit into the bigger picture.e  G Certainly, the degree would help. However, if a low-grade moron like men< can go as far as I have in my time, anyone with a modicum ofG intelligence should easily be able to learn enough on one's own to makee: me look REALLY dumb! (Doesn't take much, I know (Steve!)).   D.J.D.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.500 ************************, and they don't have a problem with it.s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Weɑ:&-7QPdu
sIƃO!cǺxr|I
htdD~2y^d_/?N=;8|2>ӭ~;c"\ng8{__?;9ѳL-?XF:lyWQFee}ங0H%[J(A!l~y|ǈ_1C *]ZkEl*C֢+/Oe)fYRWs'V-
CIalgD/֬"*RnnttQ1
cTa*a AI]I. '!xIoPZ5Sܳ\`GE]?tE;{0GO)p@mG*r"[
/U_+hU'f89rF/)Az	vNGaĒD{Ԗk<4iöHԑu<'