1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 10 Sep 2004	Volume 2004 : Issue 503       Contents: Re: Backup and ACLs  Re: Backup and ACLs  Re: Backup and ACLs ' BACKUP is ignoring /SINCE=BACKUP.  Why? + Re: BACKUP is ignoring /SINCE=BACKUP.  Why? 1 Re: cluster member crashes during boot (again...) % Re: DEC VET/Q-Vet current replacement < Re: For Sale:  2 x DEC 4000-720 (rack-mounted) plus add-ons.< Re: For Sale:  2 x DEC 4000-720 (rack-mounted) plus add-ons.K Re: freeware's (5.0) mailcount from a system account? (orphaned .mai files) ( Re: Ghostscript V8.11 Installation Error. I'm giving up computers if this is the future.A Re: I64 TDMS kits are now available for evaluation and field test < Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld% Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals % Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals % Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals % Re: Maximum distance for VMS clusters ! release date of DECXX 6..6 known? % Re: release date of DECXX 6..6 known? % Re: release date of DECXX 6..6 known?  Re: Sending mail via dbl-cobol2 TCPIP: Getting NSLOOKUP information from C programC TSM hates my DECnet version (Was: TSM won't accept my circuit name) G Re: TSM hates my DECnet version (Was: TSM won't accept my circuit name) $ Re: TSM won't accept my circuit name$ Re: TSM won't accept my circuit name$ Re: TSM won't accept my circuit name VMS License Help Re: VMS License Help Re: VMS License Help Re: VMS marketing opportunity  Re: VMS marketing opportunity  RE: VMS marketing opportunity  Re: VMS marketing opportunity " RE: why mainframes are still used?" RE: why mainframes are still used?" RE: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?" Re: why mainframes are still used?# Re: [OT]: The state of CS education # Re: [OT]: The state of CS education # Re: [OT]: The state of CS education # Re: [OT]: The state of CS education   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 07:59:33 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Backup and ACLs3 Message-ID: <bOVXyDWnUsgc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <OFED9E29A9.56787024-ON85256F0A.007694B2-85256F0A.0077DDB2@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes: >  >  >  >  >  > @ > hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote on 09/09/2004 04:24:57 PM: > @ >> In article <ec657b64.0409082325.38f735be@posting.google.com>,( >> sinobato@yahoo.com (Sinobato) writes: >>H >> :I need to backup directory and all files/sub-directories beneath it.E >> :Also, I need to preserve the current ACL that the directories and  >> :files has. ...I >> :However, when I try to restore it on another node but almost the same + >> :setup (ie. same user, same identifiers)  >>G >>   BACKUP does not generally provide for this, since it is the binary H >>   identifier values that are of interest, and these binary values are3 >>   very seldom the same across different systems.  > 1 > This is a perplexing statement, at least to me.  > D > What, if any, provision is in BACKUP for ACE's around directories, > directory  > entries and files? > / > Will for example BACKUP/IMAGE preserve these? & > Will BACKUP/PHYSICAL preserve these?  A There is no such thing as an ACL on a directory entry.  Directory @ entries are records within directories.  They map from file name< to file ID and have just enough room to store the file name, file version and file ID.   > The directory file itself may be protected by an ACL.  BACKUP,< BACKUP/IMAGE and BACKUP/PHYSICAL will all preserve this ACL.  > The file pointed to by the directory entry may be protected byC an ACL.  BACKUP, BACKUP/IMAGE and BACKUP/PHYSICAL will all preserve 	 this ACL.   I BACKUP /PHYSICAL will always preserve ACLs, with or without /INTERCHANGE. D That's because it restores the entire disk, bit for bit, home block,: index file, file headers, files, acls, free space and all.  H File oriented BACKUPs will save ACLs to tape and restore ACLs from tape.D It doesn't matter whether this is an /IMAGE backup or not.  ACLs are> still saved and restored.  With /INTERCHANGE on the save step,C ACLs are not saved to tape.  With /INTERCHANGE on the restore step,   ACLs are not restored from tape.  G Hoff's point was that even if you restore the original ACL's from tape, C the identifiers in those ACLs will have the original _32 bit binary B values_.  The identifier names corresponding to those values might= be different on the source system and the destination system.   B If you have an ACL that grants access to SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT for= members of group "SYSTEM_ADMINS" and denies access to members ? of group "GUEST" on the source machine, the ACL restored on the 6 destination machine could well grant access to membersE of group "GUEST" and deny access to members of group "MILE_HIGH_CLUB"    	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 10:07:54 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Backup and ACLs3 Message-ID: <KM52DNEw3T30@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <bOVXyDWnUsgc@eisner.encompasserve.org>, briggs@encompasserve.org writes:  I > Hoff's point was that even if you restore the original ACL's from tape, E > the identifiers in those ACLs will have the original _32 bit binary D > values_.  The identifier names corresponding to those values might? > be different on the source system and the destination system.   F It might be worth noting that the values will _not_ differ in the caseF of facility-specific identifiers.  Thus you can freely move around any< files whose Identifier ACEs specify NET$MANAGE, for example.  D > If you have an ACL that grants access to SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT for? > members of group "SYSTEM_ADMINS" and denies access to members A > of group "GUEST" on the source machine, the ACL restored on the 8 > destination machine could well grant access to membersG > of group "GUEST" and deny access to members of group "MILE_HIGH_CLUB"   E The way around this within an organization, would be to use facility- F specific identifiers (coordinated across the organization) from one ofC the non-registered facility numbers (those with values 2048 through A 4095 which are reserved for site-specific purposes).  Just beware , of any Freeware which might use such a code.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:34:15 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Backup and ACLsQ Message-ID: <OF54386047.7F7DBB16-ON85256F0B.00549CC7-85256F0B.0055AE6D@metso.com>   9 briggs@encompasserve.org wrote on 09/10/2004 08:59:33 AM:   ? > In article <OFED9E29A9.56787024-ON85256F0A.007694B2-85256F0A. 5 > 0077DDB2@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes:  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > B > > hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote on 09/09/2004 04:24:57 PM: > > B > >> In article <ec657b64.0409082325.38f735be@posting.google.com>,* > >> sinobato@yahoo.com (Sinobato) writes: > >>J > >> :I need to backup directory and all files/sub-directories beneath it.G > >> :Also, I need to preserve the current ACL that the directories and  > >> :files has. ...K > >> :However, when I try to restore it on another node but almost the same - > >> :setup (ie. same user, same identifiers)  > >>I > >>   BACKUP does not generally provide for this, since it is the binary J > >>   identifier values that are of interest, and these binary values are5 > >>   very seldom the same across different systems.  > > 3 > > This is a perplexing statement, at least to me.  > > F > > What, if any, provision is in BACKUP for ACE's around directories,
 > > directory  > > entries and files? > > 1 > > Will for example BACKUP/IMAGE preserve these? ( > > Will BACKUP/PHYSICAL preserve these? > C > There is no such thing as an ACL on a directory entry.  Directory B > entries are records within directories.  They map from file name> > to file ID and have just enough room to store the file name, > file version and file ID.   ; Thanks.  I knew that.  I just got carried away when typing.    > @ > The directory file itself may be protected by an ACL.  BACKUP,> > BACKUP/IMAGE and BACKUP/PHYSICAL will all preserve this ACL. > @ > The file pointed to by the directory entry may be protected byE > an ACL.  BACKUP, BACKUP/IMAGE and BACKUP/PHYSICAL will all preserve  > this ACL.  > K > BACKUP /PHYSICAL will always preserve ACLs, with or without /INTERCHANGE. F > That's because it restores the entire disk, bit for bit, home block,< > index file, file headers, files, acls, free space and all. > J > File oriented BACKUPs will save ACLs to tape and restore ACLs from tape.F > It doesn't matter whether this is an /IMAGE backup or not.  ACLs are@ > still saved and restored.  With /INTERCHANGE on the save step,E > ACLs are not saved to tape.  With /INTERCHANGE on the restore step, " > ACLs are not restored from tape. >   ; Thanks, again.  That was what I understood to be happening.   I > Hoff's point was that even if you restore the original ACL's from tape, E > the identifiers in those ACLs will have the original _32 bit binary D > values_.  The identifier names corresponding to those values might? > be different on the source system and the destination system.  > D > If you have an ACL that grants access to SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT for? > members of group "SYSTEM_ADMINS" and denies access to members A > of group "GUEST" on the source machine, the ACL restored on the 8 > destination machine could well grant access to membersG > of group "GUEST" and deny access to members of group "MILE_HIGH_CLUB"  >   H This is of course exactly right, and is the source of my confusion about Hoff's response.  To replay:    K > >> :However, when I try to restore it on another node but almost the same - > >> :setup (ie. same user, same identifiers)   J Here the claim is same user, same identifiers, but not working on restore.   > >>I > >>   BACKUP does not generally provide for this, since it is the binary J > >>   identifier values that are of interest, and these binary values are5 > >>   very seldom the same across different systems.   J Here the response is does not provide for this since ... binary values are very seldom the same.   K So what I missed is that although the identifiers _names_ are the same, the H identifiers _binary values_ are surely not the same or there would be noG problem.  I did not tumble to the distinction between the names and the  values of the identifiers.E Now I get it and I hope so does the original questioner.  He needs to J align his identifier values (no simple task) to make his "almost the same") systems enough the same for this to work.   $ I guess like many, I need more rest.   -Norm    >    John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 08:26:10 -0700% From: tadamsmar@yahoo.com (Tom Adams) 0 Subject: BACKUP is ignoring /SINCE=BACKUP.  Why?= Message-ID: <ea44f5a1.0409100726.253d5722@posting.google.com>   K I have one machine where the incremental backup is backing up every file on  the machine.  L I have 5 Alphas and they are all running the same incremental backup commandI procedure.   The others are working normally, but this one is filling the  backup tape every other day.  = Does anyone have any idea what might be wrong on this system?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:36:49 -0400  From: norm.raphael@metso.com4 Subject: Re: BACKUP is ignoring /SINCE=BACKUP.  Why?Q Message-ID: <OFC3511F67.1F3E8F90-ON85256F0B.0055A3F4-85256F0B.0055EA6E@metso.com>   @ tadamsmar@yahoo.com (Tom Adams) wrote on 09/10/2004 11:26:10 AM:  J > I have one machine where the incremental backup is backing up every file on > the machine. > F > I have 5 Alphas and they are all running the same incremental backup command K > procedure.   The others are working normally, but this one is filling the  > backup tape every other day. > ? > Does anyone have any idea what might be wrong on this system?   K Once a directory file modify date is updated, it and everything under it is H backed up for safety.  (Others can discuss the specifics far better than I.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:08:32 +0100 + From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda@isr.ist.utl.pt> : Subject: Re: cluster member crashes during boot (again...)) Message-ID: <m3k6v2ayyn.fsf@pixie.isrnet>   A I could swear I've posted the results of your advice earlier, but  apparently I didn't...  C What happened is that the "set vcc_flags 0" trick solved the crash, ( but now it hangs at the end of the boot.  F At the first attempt, that led to a node hang, after a while I noticedC that the master node was running out of swap space, so I decided to @ create more page/swap files and installed them (and modified theE startup files to add them, taking into account that it should only do A that in that specific node). Then, aftwr a while, I was unable to E login again, in any node, and had to hit the HALT button on all nodes  :(  ? Today I tryed something different: I noticed that disabling XFC D implies that all cache in all nodes is disabled. So I decided to tryC setting the VCC_MAX_CACHE to something very low, i.e. 2MB. However, E during boot, XFC fails to init, and it says that cache is disabled in D all cluster... Then, it hanged at the same place as before (sorry, IB lost the notes where I transcribed the last messages, but they had+ something to initialization of auditing...)   B Is it possible to setup XFC parameters such that prevents XFC from@ initializing and at the same time not to occupy too much memory?   Cheers,    Rodrigo    --    : *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda@isr.ist.utl.pt>. ***  Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda0 ***   Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR:7 ***    Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa 4 ***     Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGALH *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10  31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 03:56:32 -0700* From: binarydinosaurs@hotmail.com (Witchy). Subject: Re: DEC VET/Q-Vet current replacement= Message-ID: <26602a98.0409100256.1ad76130@posting.google.com>   z "Alex Daniels" <AlexNOSPAMTHANKSDaniels@themail.co.uk> wrote in message news:<413e40e2$0$22764$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>...B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> wrote in message . > news:Yhk%c.9826$eY2.9223@news.cpqcorp.net... > > M > > Install QVET on VMS and run it.  It is one of our qual tools (it's not HW L > > dependent).  Pull down the script "Phase 1 Eng Qual" and let it rip.  ItK > > will beat the crap out of the system.  I would recommend that you save   > > your9 > > sysgen parameters first, as QVET will muck with them.  > >  > > ; > > "Witchy" <binarydinosaurs@hotmail.com> wrote in message ; > > news:26602a98.0409070227.49326d0d@posting.google.com...  > >> Hi folks, > >>J > >> Does anyone know what the current flavour of Alpha exerciser tool is?> > >> Got a Personal Workstation here with an apparent fault of4 > >> 'intermittent freezing' so I want to thrash it. > >>E > >> Can't find anything on the 6.8 firmware site, and the only other I > >> firmware CDs I've got here are 5.9 which contains QVET for the GS320  > >> :-\ > ! > There is also UETP in SYS$TEST.  > O > Also your specific console firmware may or may not have SYSEXER and MEMEXER,  A > if it does set off many instances of these to run concurrently.    Good point, I'll have a look.   A You can tell I've been away from VMS for a while - I'd completely  forgotten about UETP!    Thanks both,  
 Adrian/Witchy    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:36:43 +0200 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>E Subject: Re: For Sale:  2 x DEC 4000-720 (rack-mounted) plus add-ons. B Message-ID: <41419fdb$0$28479$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>   Keith Parris wrote:  > John Smith wrote:  > F >> Does this mean that HP's count of VMS systems in operation drops to" >> 411,000 - 2  =  410,998 ??  ;-) >  > 2 > Not necessarily. These may find a good home yet. > I > And every time a hobbyist installs simh or TS-10 on a PC or a customer  I > buys Charon-VAX, and they install and run VMS, the count should go up,  I > right? (I just did this with simh on my Windows laptop, so add 1 more.)  > H >> I wonder how long HP is going to use that same system count? Perhaps 
 >> as longK >> as the Soviet Union claimed that 99.99% of voters actually voted for Joe 
 >> Stalin. >  > E > That reminds me. I don't think the 411K number included any of the  I > clones made in the USSR, Hungary, etc. (I had the opportunity to speak  I > to the DECUS Local User Group in Budapest last summer, and while I was  G > there I had the privilege of sharing dinner with a gentleman who had  G > helped build one of those clones while he was at the university. Now  + > THAT'S a real Computer Science education!   I For those interested in learning more about VAX clones behind the former   iron-curtain...   
 The TPA story P http://web.archive.org/web/20030623092150/www.telnet.hu/hamster/tpa/e_index.html   Soviet clones of DEC machines % ftp://ftp.digital.dp.ua/DEC/pictures/   7 Molecular Expressions: The Silicon Zoo - Steal The Best 9 http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html   G The many OpenVMS-trained specialists which resulted from using the VAX  G clones appears to have left a legacy (in the positive sense) which can  ! still be seen today in Hungary...    VMS Competence Center  http://vms.elte.hu/      Cheers!    Keith Cayemberg    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 09:30:06 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)E Subject: Re: For Sale:  2 x DEC 4000-720 (rack-mounted) plus add-ons. = Message-ID: <f30679fb.0409100830.1764c10e@posting.google.com>   W "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<mJednW2oqJ-6t6LcRVn-tA@igs.net>...  > Roy Omond wrote:8 > > I have reluctantly decided to part with my beautiful  > > machines as described below: > >  > > : > > 2 x DEC 4000-720 (each with 2 Alpha 21064 processors),8 > > each with 256 Mbytes, in a rack-mount cabinet.  Each= > > machine has 4 x DSSI buses, + one DSSI/SCSI (configurable 9 > > as either DSSI or SCSI) bus.  Futurebus+, 2 x 10 Mbit 7 > > Ethernet adaptors each, 1 TLZ04 DAT (I think) each, > > > 1 CD drive (can't remember which model) each.  The systems< > > have been switched off for a couple of years, though I'm> > > pretty confident that they'll be in working order (this is3 > > after all *DEC* equipment, not Compaq or HP ;-)  > > @ > > If necessary, 2 BA350 shelves fully stocked with RZ29's plus= > > 2 HSD30 controllers.  VMS 7.3-2 pre-installed if desired, > > > plus the complete and latest set of Layered Products CD's. > > @ > > Suitable for a *very* enthusiastic serious hobbyist only :-) > > @ > > Location is Coventry (UK).  Purchaser to collect (you'd need > > a fair sized van). > >  > > Reasonable offers ...  >  >  > E > Does this mean that HP's count of VMS systems in operation drops to ! > 411,000 - 2  =  410,998 ??  ;-)  > N > I wonder how long HP is going to use that same system count? Perhaps as longJ > as the Soviet Union claimed that 99.99% of voters actually voted for Joe	 > Stalin.   O Better for HP dont use the numbers. Instead they can use the word "thousands". N By the way in a few months (<3-4) the company will turn off some systems underS OpenVMS (4 x ES-40 + 4 x AS-4100 as query servers (Oracle RDB HotStandby servers)).   L Please dont ask me how can you buy these systems, because its a state ownedJ company and they prefer to donate the servers to other public institution.   Regards    FC   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 10:08:57 -0700& From: pjohnson@wcu.edu (Patti Johnson)T Subject: Re: freeware's (5.0) mailcount from a system account? (orphaned .mai files)= Message-ID: <ca28f268.0409100908.1a497726@posting.google.com>   D Thanks!  That did it!  What a great tool... actually, both mailcountD and hglogin are great tools - don't know how I managed w/out them so long.    pj  _ Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote in message news:<2qbaouFtepoeU1@uni-berlin.de>...  > Patti Johnson wrote: >  > > Hello all,H > > just a quick question:  I've downloaded & used mailcount to identifyE > > orphaned mail$...mai files.  It's great.  But how can I use it to J > > identify these files for others' accounts without logging in to them? F > > As the system administrator, I'd like to clean up others' accounts; > > w/out having to involve them to login to their account.  >  > 1)	$ submit/user=xxxx  >  >     or > 6 > 2)	Download and install Hunter Goatley's HGLOGIN at: > ? > 	http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?HGLOGIN  >  >  > Roy Omond  > Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:25:06 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>1 Subject: Re: Ghostscript V8.11 Installation Error 2 Message-ID: <chrrtm$jbh$1@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>  G It seems you are trying to install this software on a VAX. However the   installation script mentions:   K FREEWARE VAXVMS GHOSTSCRIPT V8.11: Postscript interpreter for OpenVMS Alpha L                                                                        ^^^^^  2 Are you sure you can run this software on a VAX ??         Hamilton Company wrote: F > I am getting this error while trying to install Ghostscript. Please J > advice on what I need to do. What I want to do is to be able to convert 8 >  postscript file to pdf. Here is the installation log: > G > VAXC>PRODUCT INSTALL GHOSTSCRIPT/DESTINATION=SYS$COMMON:[GHOSTSCRIPT]  > * > The following product has been selected:< >     FREEWARE VAXVMS GHOSTSCRIPT V8.11      Layered Product >   > Do you want to continue? [YES] > " > Configuration phase starting ... > I > You will be asked to choose options, if any, for each selected product  	 > and for D > any products that may be installed to satisfy software dependency  > requirements.  > M > FREEWARE VAXVMS GHOSTSCRIPT V8.11: Postscript interpreter for OpenVMS Alpha  > H >     This package is freeware and comes with NO warranty, expressed or 
 > implied. > E >     Be sure to read the full license conditions in [.GS.DOC]PUBLIC.  > 1 > Do you want the defaults for all options? [YES]  > / >     Did you specify a value for /DESTINATION?  > M >     PCSI is designed to install software to the system disk and contains no J >     provision for the software being installed to ask for any alternate  > targetF >     location.  The only mechanism currently available in PCSI is theI >     /DESTINATION switch, which must be specfied as part of the PRODUCT  	 > INSTALL 9 >     command, and the default destination is SYS$COMMON.  > J >     If you did not specify the /DESTINATION switch when you invoked thisL >     installation, it is recommended that you exit and re-issue the PRODUCTM >     INSTALL command with a /DESTINATION specifying where you would like the F >     [.GS...] directory tree to be installed (unless, of course, you  > really do ' >     want it installed in SYS$COMMON).  > $ >     Do you want to continue? [YES] > ) > Do you want to review the options? [NO]  >  > Execution phase starting ... > * > The following product will be installed:< >     FREEWARE VAXVMS GHOSTSCRIPT V8.11      Layered Product >  > Portion done: 0%7 > %PCSI-I-PRCOUTPUT, output from subprocess follows ... K > %LINK-F-OPENIN, error opening SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DECW$XMLIBSHR12.EXE; as   > input  > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > I > %PCSI-E-ASSEMERR, error assembling [GS.BIN]GS.EXE_VAX; status returned   > from DCL follows, > -LINK-F-OPENIN, error opening !AS as input$ > %PCSI-E-OPFAILED, operation failedG > Terminating is strongly recommended.  Do you want to terminate? [YES] I > %PCSI-E-CANCEL_WIP, termination resulted in an incomplete modification   > to the system 1 > %PCSI-E-S_OPCAN, operation cancelled by request A > %PCSIUI-E-ABORT, fatal error encountered - operation terminated  > VAXC>    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:05:42 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG7 Subject: I'm giving up computers if this is the future. 0 Message-ID: <00A37ABF.5D2132B1@SendSpamHere.ORG>  K Would anyone be wanting a 1U rack mount Pentium III before I decide to take = a lead pipe to it in order to relieve my frustration with it?   L 2 freaking days already of trying to get reflection's file transfer protocol- to work.  Their support droids are useless.     K If PeeCee/Weendoze is the future, I am buying myself a hot dog cart today!  L How the hell can people use such shite and actually purport to be productiveL at their jobs?  I hate this shite more and more and more everyday because itK has infiltrated customer environments and I have to debug software problems < in conjunction with users using these shite "inhell" boxes.    --  < http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.  --  , Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product!   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 09:37:11 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso)J Subject: Re: I64 TDMS kits are now available for evaluation and field test= Message-ID: <f30679fb.0409100837.4a62c664@posting.google.com>   / What surprise ! There are systems running TDMS. 4 I dont see this sofwtare in production since 1992 ! ( Would this software be ported to Linux ?   Regards    FC  v susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote in message news:<857e9e41.0409091730.4747c58e@posting.google.com>... > Dear Distribution lists, >   F > I thought you might be interested in yet another leap forward in theF > I64 journey.  If you are interested in field testing I64 TDMS pleaseF > contact Robert Sampson who also happens to be an OpenVMS Ambassador. >    > Warm Regards,  > Sue  >    > -----Original Message----- > From: Sampson, Robert . > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:06 PMH > Subject: I64 TDMS kits are now available for evaluation and field test >  > Dear HP OpenVMS Customer,  > A > TDMS (Terminal Data Management System) Software for OpenVMS I64 D > (a.k.a. I64 TDMS) is now available for evaluation and field test. G > Please reply to me (mailto:RobertdotSampson@hp.com) if you would like E > to obtain an evaluation software kit and temporary license key.  My E > team's intent is to complete the field test and begin offering this H > software for sale by January 2005, as licensing and support services. / > We will continue to offer Alpha TDMS as well.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:28:10 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com> E Subject: Re: Itanic Adoption Survey from 23-August-2004 Computerworld ' Message-ID: <4141C80A.4040605@MMaz.com>    David Froble wrote:    > John Smith wrote:  >  >> Tom Adams wrote:  >>B >>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in; >>> message news:<RGnxz2uw4ye1@eisner.encompasserve.org>...  >>> B >>>> In article <ea44f5a1.0409080525.61494fbf@posting.google.com>,, >>>> tadamsmar@yahoo.com (Tom Adams) writes: >>>>D >>>>> I did see somewhere that HP is expecting most users to migrateG >>>>> before 2007.  But the survey seems to indicate that most have not : >>>>> started planning, so the migrations could run later. >>>>> @ >>>>   I know of shops that plan to keep right on running VAXen. >>>>I >>> I guess we might end up running Alphas for a long.  I am not sure its 3 >>> a good option for us.  I think we will migrate.  >>> I >>> I was pricing Alphas (400s, DS10S) in the aftermarket from early 2003 G >>> till recently.  These low end Alphas seemed to be more available in ? >>> early 2003.  The market seemed a lot tighter by early 2004.  >>>  >> >>? >> Don't kid yourself....HP will be ratcheting the Alphaserver   >> production lineI >> to a close, most likely creating shortages in certain product lines as J >> similarly equivalent (in HP's eyes) Itanic-based systems are brought to
 >> market. >>E >> It won't occur to HP that the customer base will continue to need   >> those newI >> Alpha's for at least 2 years after their apps may become available on  	 >> Itanic F >> in order to satify themselves that the 'ported' Itanic apps behave  >> the same H >> as the Alpha apps and that the IT guys have sufficient time to becomeI >> comfortable with the new stuff before any migration off Alpha begins.   >> That I >> and the need to accomodate user/processing growth during the migration 
 >> period. >  >  > I > If any of the idiots involved over the last 6+ years gave a damn about  E > the customers VAXs and Alphas would continue to be sold as long as   > there is customer demand.  > H > Maybe Microsoft wasn't first with "You'll go where we want you to go".  G Perhaps, but with the unintended result is that they 'GO' to MS and by  I doing so, you are no longer dependent on HP.  It may not be good, but it  F is potential reality...  If I don't need VMS, I have no need for HP...     Barry    --    > Barry Treahy, Jr                       E-mail: Treahy@MMaz.com> Midwest Microwave                          Phone: 480/314-1320> Vice President & CIO                         FAX: 480/661-7028                            ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:11:28 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> . Subject: Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals, Message-ID: <41414584.F86473D7@teksavvy.com>   Jack Peacock wrote: J > I suspect that co-op Itanium funding from Intel may be what has kept VMS > alive at HP for this long.    J This all depends on what sort of deal Carly agreed to have Curly sign withN Intel at the time of Alphacide. However, if/when Intel does decide to pull theO plug in IA64, I suspect that it will want to keep HP as a loyal Intel customer.   L Remember as that IA64 is quietly retired in 3 years, the competition will beL between HP going to the Intel 8086 or AMD 8086. This is especially true whenG you consider galaxy class machines which might want to have certain CPU K features, and there will be competition between AMD and Intel as to whom is ( willing to provide those features first.  N If Palmer is made to leave AMD before then, perhaps AMD might be interested inJ partly funding the move of VMS, HP-UX and Tandem to AMD'S 8086 with galaxyD class machines built around AMD's chips, giving AMD high visibility.  J > base.  Without the backing from Intel an x86 VMS might have the oppositeJ > efect of killing off VMS because there is no deep pocket sponsor for it.  M Yep. But the same can be said of HP UX and Tandem NSK. Also, with Intel havin M partly funded the cleaning up of the VMS code, remembert that the port to the N 8086 will be much easier for the VMS engineers. (especially of the 64 bit 8086% uses the same EFI stuff for booting).     H > HP must be getting some kind of Dell-like price breaks on x86 parts in$ > return for their Itanium support.   N Digital claimed it was etting special prices on Microsoft software in exchangeN for killing its own  software and donating VMS clustering to Microsoft, but inL the end, Digital wasn't getting anything better than Dell, HP or IBM or even	 Gateway.    N Remember that in real business, it should be Microsoft on its knees, servicingL Carly and other box making CEOs (supplier begging its customers) and not the other way around as it is now.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:32:16 GMT 2 From: Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net>. Subject: Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals. Message-ID: <Qof0d.276701$8_6.72747@attbi_s04>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Jack Peacock wrote:  > J >>I suspect that co-op Itanium funding from Intel may be what has kept VMS >>alive at HP for this long.   >   N > Remember as that IA64 is quietly retired in 3 years, the competition will beN > between HP going to the Intel 8086 or AMD 8086. This is especially true whenI > you consider galaxy class machines which might want to have certain CPU M > features, and there will be competition between AMD and Intel as to whom is * > willing to provide those features first. > P > If Palmer is made to leave AMD before then, perhaps AMD might be interested inL > partly funding the move of VMS, HP-UX and Tandem to AMD'S 8086 with galaxyF > class machines built around AMD's chips, giving AMD high visibility.  H Uh, G.Q.Bob is not AFAIK an Exec at AMD; he's merely a member of the BODD and thus unlikely to have any influence on AMD's thinking about VMS.  F If AMD's BOD does mess with those details, consider that Bruce ClaflinB is another member of the BOD.  His history includes managing DEC's' wonderfully successful ;-) PC business.e -- u Cheers, Bobe   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:09:10 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r. Subject: Re: Itanium not meeting Intel's goals, Message-ID: <v7WdnXDjsqDoOtzcRVn-iA@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:t > Jack Peacock wrote:oG >> I suspect that co-op Itanium funding from Intel may be what has kept'! >> VMS alive at HP for this long.n >'G > This all depends on what sort of deal Carly agreed to have Curly signrB > with Intel at the time of Alphacide. However, if/when Intel doesF > decide to pull the plug in IA64, I suspect that it will want to keep > HP as a loyal Intel customer.t    L As a substitute processor for Itanic, Intel will offer HP a very interesting1 processor it has up its sleeve, code named "EV8".e  J Intel will point out to HP that Intel has a team of engineers on-staff whoL have been working on this processor and designs for follow-on processors forI years with great engineering success. Intel will also point out that VMS, K Tru64, and NSK can use the processor due to the interent lockstep built-in, L and that 'porting' to EV8 should be very simple for HP software engineering.  F Intel will also mention that Microsoft has shown an interest in 64-bitH Windows on this processor family - having actually run 64-bit Windows on "EV8's" earlier predecessors.e  E HP will be hard pressed to ignore this EV8 processor from Intel - The?L world's leading microprocessor designer. After all it's got industry-leadingK performance today and in the future, scales easily, is extremely efficient,OH SMT capable today, and fits HP's current form-factor systems like it was made for them.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 05:52:35 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski). Subject: Re: Maximum distance for VMS clusters= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0409100452.21072354@posting.google.com>D  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<dQryOvSuXAFo@eisner.encompasserve.org>...i > In article <r350d.10239$%M5.2500@news.cpqcorp.net>, Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> writes:. > L > > I'm told there exists a disaster-tolerant VMS cluster in an undisclosed 8 > > location with an inter-site distance of 3,000 miles. > D > You will not change my vote by hinting that Dick Cheney uses VMS !  D Al Gore uses VMS too!  He was able to delete all the all-in-1 emails several weeks back! :)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:35:57 +0200B' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>,* Subject: release date of DECXX 6..6 known?* Message-ID: <chs73e$bga$1@news.tudelft.nl>   Hi all,   C I'm trying to port a C++ program to OpenVMS that uses std-namespaceeE features. The include files on my system (types.h) say that this williG be included in DECXX6.6. Does anyone know what the planned release date?% of this product for OpenVMS Alpha is?r                     Jouk   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:59:04 +0000t- From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>h. Subject: Re: release date of DECXX 6..6 known?* Message-ID: <4141A518.6030807@bigpond.com>   JOUKJ was overheard to say:l	 > Hi all,h > E > I'm trying to port a C++ program to OpenVMS that uses std-namespaceaG > features. The include files on my system (types.h) say that this willtI > be included in DECXX6.6. Does anyone know what the planned release dateA' > of this product for OpenVMS Alpha is?L >  >  >                Jouka  D CXX 7.1 is the version on the VMS E8.2 kit for Itanium (and I assumeF for Alpha but I haven't checked the kit).  I believe this is earmarked for release later this year.   Regards, Dave.e -- KI David B Sneddon (dbs)    VMS Systems Programmer     dbsneddon@bigpond.comhI Sneddo's quick guide ...          http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/ I DBS freeware at ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htmTI "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" Lennonp   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:10:34 GMTn5 From: "Ed Vogel" <edward.vogel_stop_the_spam.@hp.com>n. Subject: Re: release date of DECXX 6..6 known?3 Message-ID: <Ktj0d.10277$796.5891@news.cpqcorp.net>s  4 "JOUKJ" <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message$ news:chs73e$bga$1@news.tudelft.nl...	 > Hi all,  >bE > I'm trying to port a C++ program to OpenVMS that uses std-namespaceUG > features. The include files on my system (types.h) say that this will I > be included in DECXX6.6. Does anyone know what the planned release dateb' > of this product for OpenVMS Alpha is?r >s >  >                 Jouk  E     The next major release of the C++ compiler for OpenVMS Alpha willLE     probably be called V7.1.  We plan to include this support in that3 release.@     We hope to ship the Alpha product in the first half of 2005.  D     Note, as Dave Sneddon said, the support is currently in the T7.1 compiler)     that is available for OpenVMS on I64.        Ed Vogel     HP C/C++ Engineering.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:33:15 +0200s1 From: Ste /aka=Stardust <stefores@toglimi.tin.it> ' Subject: Re: Sending mail via dbl-cobolb8 Message-ID: <a0p2k05n4i270uf695jpos8c6qcpt9149m@4ax.com>  , Il Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:34:39 -0400, "Syltrem"& <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> ha scritto:  1 >I don't have the exact answer to your questions.   F Anyway thanks for your answer, I'm looking ad the online docs and I've0 found something interesting to solve my problem.   Ste /aka=Stardust" --> Non c' cattivo pi cattivo di un buono quando diventa CATTIVO   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:21:24 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>h; Subject: TCPIP: Getting NSLOOKUP information from C programi, Message-ID: <414163F1.2A307A0F@teksavvy.com>  M The programming documentation for the TCPIP services shows either the $QIO or N C socket routines to translate a host name into a host address, or vice versa.  ( However, I need to do the equivalent of:  	 $nslookup  nslookup> set querytype=txt-* nslookup> 144.228.28.69.asn.routeviews.org  " which would return something like: Start: 2004/09/10 04:15:59   DD ;; Query: 144.228.28.69.asn.routeviews.org ,type = TXT , class = ANY   ;; ANSWERS:c6 143.228.28.69.asn.routeviews.org.	83976	IN	TXT	"13768"6 143.228.28.69.asn.routeviews.org.	83976	IN	TXT	"13768"  I (In the case, the "13768" is the ASNUMBER of the ip address 69.28.228.144   N So, is there a programming interface to specify the "querytype=TXT" equivalentE and then get some structure back which contains an array of strings ?e  L Or must I write my own BIND protocol software to find out the address of theL local bind server, connect to it, send it a formatted request and then parse
 the results ?e    2 (This is on VAX VMS 7.2, TCPIP services 5.3 ECO 2)   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:00:17 -0500 (CDT)> From: sms@antinode.orgL Subject: TSM hates my DECnet version (Was: TSM won't accept my circuit name)) Message-ID: <04091010001710@antinode.org>a  % From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn)r  A > I have installed TSMECO06021 on V7.3-2 with DECnet-Plus without  > problems!s > [...]p  F    From a quick look at a TSM KITINSTAL.COM, I'd guess that I'm doomedG by my weird DECnet version, which seems to be out of step with the resti of the universe:  2 ALP $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "DECNET_VERSION") 00050500   This gets split into:         decnet_major_version =   5!       decnet_minor_version = "05" !       decnet_ECO           = "00"c  3    Comments in KITINSTAL.COM (TSMECO08021) suggest:   L $ ! f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION") will return a long word the contents of which $ ! is as follows: $ !o $ !    000XYYZZ  where : $ ! : $ !      X - the DECnet architecture type, i.e. a 5 or a 4B $ !      YY - The DECnet version number, for phase 5 this will be: $ !            07 - Version 6.1y $ !            08 - Version 6.2c $ !            09 - Version 6.3/% $ !            0a - Unrelease versione $ !            0b - version 7.0/ $ !            0c - Version 7.1s $ !            0d - Version 7.2 H $ !      ZZ - This is the ECO number currently installed for the version $ !           running.  A Thus, "00050500" appears to be much older than it really must be.s  F    From my Info-VAX archives, I see that I'm not the only one with VMSI V7.3-1 whose "NCL SHOW VERSION" result is "T5.0.3".  (Which looks bad allt by itself.  "T"?)h  H    I'd be interested to see what folks with VMS V7.3 and V7.3-2 get fromG f$getsyi( "DECNET_VERSION") (and/or "NCL SHOW VERSION").  I assume it'sw2 more reasonable than "00050500" (and/or "T5.0.3").  F    If anyone knows what trouble I'll cause if I warp the KITINSTAL.COMF to turn "00050500" into one of those values, I'd also be interested in that.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-orgD    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547T   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:15:31 +0000 (UTC)e From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukP Subject: Re: TSM hates my DECnet version (Was: TSM won't accept my circuit name)) Message-ID: <chsjv3$is6$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   B In article <04091010001710@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org writes:& >From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) > B >> I have installed TSMECO06021 on V7.3-2 with DECnet-Plus without >> problems! >> [...] >.G >   From a quick look at a TSM KITINSTAL.COM, I'd guess that I'm doomediH >by my weird DECnet version, which seems to be out of step with the rest >of the universe:, >n3 >ALP $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "DECNET_VERSION")r	 >00050500s >a >This gets split into:! >      decnet_major_version =   5o" >      decnet_minor_version = "05"" >      decnet_ECO           = "00" >n4 >   Comments in KITINSTAL.COM (TSMECO08021) suggest: >aM >$ ! f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION") will return a long word the contents of whichi >$ ! is as follows:r >$ ! >$ !    000XYYZZ  where :u >$ !; >$ !      X - the DECnet architecture type, i.e. a 5 or a 4 C >$ !      YY - The DECnet version number, for phase 5 this will be:o  >$ !            07 - Version 6.1  >$ !            08 - Version 6.2  >$ !            09 - Version 6.3& >$ !            0a - Unrelease version  >$ !            0b - version 7.0  >$ !            0c - Version 7.1  >$ !            0d - Version 7.2I >$ !      ZZ - This is the ECO number currently installed for the versiona >$ !           running.  >jB >Thus, "00050500" appears to be much older than it really must be. >9G >   From my Info-VAX archives, I see that I'm not the only one with VMSeJ >V7.3-1 whose "NCL SHOW VERSION" result is "T5.0.3".  (Which looks bad all >by itself.  "T"?) >gI >   I'd be interested to see what folks with VMS V7.3 and V7.3-2 get fromoH >f$getsyi( "DECNET_VERSION") (and/or "NCL SHOW VERSION").  I assume it's3 >more reasonable than "00050500" (and/or "T5.0.3").t > G >   If anyone knows what trouble I'll cause if I warp the KITINSTAL.COM0G >to turn "00050500" into one of those values, I'd also be interested inB >that. >?    Well I have Alphas on VMS 7.3-1    Alpha2:sh sys/noprocL OpenVMS V7.3-1  on node ALPHA2  10-SEP-2004 17:14:30.69  Uptime  40 03:18:02   and although I get   e   Alpha2:mcr ncl show versiont   Node 0$ at 2004-09-10-16:54:54.237+01:00Iinf   Characteristicse  .     Version                           = T5.0.3     I getp  3 Alpha2:write sys$output f$getsyi( "DECNET_VERSION")l 00050E04  
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:42:09 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>h- Subject: Re: TSM won't accept my circuit names* Message-ID: <41410655.D931D3CB@nobody.org>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:D >         %TSM-E-INVALID_CIRCUIT, UNA-n, QNA-n, BNA-n, SVA-n, MNA-n,? >                 ISA-n, KFE-n, MFA-n, FZA-n, or MXE-n expectede >   > Can anyone offer suggestions ?  9 Use PATCH to change a little used circuit name to EWA-n ?h   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 05:18:32 -0700% From: Bart.Zorn@xs4all.nl (Bart Zorn) - Subject: Re: TSM won't accept my circuit nameh= Message-ID: <a98cd882.0409100418.713ca733@posting.google.com>h  ? I have installed TSMECO06021 on V7.3-2 with DECnet-Plus withouto	 problems!e  F The only problem I had was similar as the one Larry Kilgallen had: TSMF is rather selective about the circuit names it accepts. In DECnet-Plus= you can assign your own names to csma-cd stations and routing < circuits, but TSM accepts only the default name of CSMACD-n.   Regards,  	 Bart Zorn   G sms@antinode.org wrote in message news:<04090923481405@antinode.org>...l+ > From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>S > 	 > > [...]t; > > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/tsm_on_alpha.html.	 > > [...]  > J >    Having recently resurected an old-enough-to-vote DECserver 200/MC (noB > more bulging filter capacitors for me), I was tempted to try the8 > Freeware TSM kit.  Perhaps I should have known better. > ! >    It's the usual Hobbyist kit:t > - > ALP $ write sys$output f$getsyi( "version")s > V7.3-1 >  > ALP $ ncl show version >  > Node 0( > at 2004-09-09-23:50:50.378-05:00I2.541 >  > Characteristics  > 0 >     Version                           = T5.0.3 >  > D >    Attempting to install TSMECO07021 or TSMECO08021.A gives a very > similar result:u > G >         / Installing Terminal Server Manager VMS Version V2.1-07... \ G >         \ Installing Terminal Server Manager VMS Version V2.1-08... /9 > , >          Inavlid DECnet version installed. >         [^^^^^^^ Fix me!]- > G >          The following table describes the valid DECnet/OSI & OpenVMSh >  releases: > , >         DECnet Release      VMS Version(s), >         --------------      --------------) >         V6.3                 V6.1, V6.2i# >         V7.0                 V7.0e( >         V7.1                 V7.0,V7.1 > F >         These versions apply to both the VAX and the Alpha releases. > I > / %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of TSMECO07 V2.1 has failed. \nI > \ %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of TSMECO08 V2.1 has failed. /  > [...]s > 5 >    The (smaller) TSMECO09021.A kit is more concise:  > [...]oE > %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of TSMECO09 V2.1 has failed.g > [...]t > G >    Apparently, DECnet-Plus is the key to a quick failure.  Is there aoJ > better kit I should use, or is it safe to rip into the KITINSTAL.COM, or > am I just doomed, TSM-wise?  > * >    Note also that many of the links fromK > "http://h18003.www1.hp.com/support/digital_networks_archive/servers/tsm/"e > seem to be useless.  > G >    I ask you.  What good is obsolete, unsupported software, if no onen > keeps it up-to-date? > J > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 6 >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98185 >    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.orgr >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 09:47:42 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) - Subject: Re: TSM won't accept my circuit namei3 Message-ID: <Xnc+ZVO+OaSv@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  _ In article <chretg$20f19@doiweb4.b2x.vwg>, Karl Rohwedder <emil.mustermann@t-online.de> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > B >> I am having trouble specifying a circuit under TSM V2.1 running/ >> under Alpha VMS V7.3 on an AlphaStation 250.$ >> $4 >> The AlphaStation is not seeing the DECserver 200. >>  8 >> TSM says it is expecting to find it on circuit SVA-0. >> f7 >> NCP says the known circuit on this machine is EWA-0.0 >> ? >> The command >>  ' >> 	TSM SET SERVER <name> CIRCUIT EWA-0e >>   >> yields the response >>  > >> 	%TSM-E-INVALID_CIRCUIT, UNA-n, QNA-n, BNA-n, SVA-n, MNA-n,2 >> 		ISA-n, KFE-n, MFA-n, FZA-n, or MXE-n expected >>  ! >> Can anyone offer suggestions ?m > + > Here is an excerpt from the releasenotes:I > N >                In addition, a new logical name, TSM$SERVICE_CIRCUITS, allows  G I have searched the release notes for the version specified above and I  do not find that text.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:11:13 -0400s  From: VLC User <VLCuser@vax.com> Subject: VMS License Helpe8 Message-ID: <gsj2k0h0nlshg2frs8a7cpmjiti8mp41o1@4ax.com>  E I successfully got my VAX-VMS Hobbyist license for my VLC, but eitherhC procedures have changed or my mind is deteriorating because I can'taF locate where to get the additional licenses (UCX, FORTRAN, etc.).  Can' anyone help me out?  Thanks in advance!    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 2004 08:26:32 GMT+ From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@openvms-rocks.com>5 Subject: Re: VMS License Helpn6 Message-ID: <Xns95606A52FAC0dcovmsrox@212.100.160.123>  J %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, VLC User wrote in news:gsj2k0h0nlshg2frs8a7cpmjiti8mp41o1@ 4ax.com   G > I successfully got my VAX-VMS Hobbyist license for my VLC, but eitherVE > procedures have changed or my mind is deteriorating because I can'taH > locate where to get the additional licenses (UCX, FORTRAN, etc.).  Can) > anyone help me out?  Thanks in advance!n  H You get the layered products licenses (including Fortran etc.) from the K same place as the OS licenses.  On the form you complete there is an item, oL "License Type".  It is as default set to OpenVMS VAX, you need to change it J to Layered Products and complete the form.  That'll get you another email L with the required licenses.  This is immediately after where you enter your  email address.     Doc. -- nG OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.aG http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:15:43 -0400.  From: VLC User <VLCuser@vax.com> Subject: Re: VMS License Helpa8 Message-ID: <rmk3k05e9qi3j1dsd6vmvt7h2ku3ke49vv@4ax.com>  H >> I successfully got my VAX-VMS Hobbyist license for my VLC, but eitherF >> procedures have changed or my mind is deteriorating because I can'tI >> locate where to get the additional licenses (UCX, FORTRAN, etc.).  Canl* >> anyone help me out?  Thanks in advance!  I >You get the layered products licenses (including Fortran etc.) from the lL >same place as the OS licenses.  On the form you complete there is an item, M >"License Type".  It is as default set to OpenVMS VAX, you need to change it CK >to Layered Products and complete the form.  That'll get you another email  M >with the required licenses.  This is immediately after where you enter your a >email address.  >  >  >Doc.b  @ Thanks, Doc.  I didn't recall the Layered Products being in that> drop-down box before, but like I said I may be losing my mind.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 02:27:08 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>9& Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity, Message-ID: <4141492F.5C0EE9A8@teksavvy.com>  
 don wrote:I > I did not say the standards were wrong.  Most of us learn something newoK > every day or so.  The standards get changed as knowledge is gained from auL > variety of sources, including how well structures bear up under the stress > of storms.  L Funny how other countries such as Australia have all that knowledge and fullN feature strict standards that have in fact been RELAXED over the years because they had been too agressive.  K So Florida may be victim of NIH syndrome, thinking it is the only civilized L area to be the target of such weather events.  Cyclone = Typhoon = Hurricane= for all practical purposes (except direction of travel/spin).t    N > hurricanes and their effects.  There are also new materials and construction# > techniques developed constantly. o  L Pointless if the government doesn't have the guts to force old buildings and trailer parks to comply. .  + > These all have bearing on the development  > of improved standards.  J But politics are far more concerned about preserving votes of retirees whoN can't afford to upgrade their homes/trailers to proper standards. And politicsL don't want to portray Florida as a dangerous place, so they tolerate lots of/ buildings and trees that should never be there.t    N People take their homes for granted and have forgotten that homes provide lifeM saving shelter from the elements, be it hurricane, extreme cold, snow storms,mG flooding etc. And one must plan/build your home to widthstand the LOCAL M threaths in terms of weather or other cataclysms. Problem arises when a place4K such as Florida has so many people who lives elsewhere and move to Florida,.M not really knowledgeable of local dangers, thinking that because there are notL snow storms there, they need not be concerned about theor home providing any life saving shelter.  N This is not too different from a disaster tolerant cluster design. You need toM look at the whole picture to  decide what needs to be backed up and then look N at ALL the possible failure modes not only fro the building, but also network, OS and application.g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:20:58 -0400I# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>b& Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity, Message-ID: <FtCdnSI4W4ekN9zcRVn-sw@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:G > don wrote:F >> I did not say the standards were wrong.  Most of us learn somethingB >> new every day or so.  The standards get changed as knowledge isG >> gained from a variety of sources, including how well structures bearr! >> up under the stress of storms.o >oE > Funny how other countries such as Australia have all that knowledgedG > and full feature strict standards that have in fact been RELAXED overs0 > the years because they had been too agressive. >pC > So Florida may be victim of NIH syndrome, thinking it is the onlyaD > civilized area to be the target of such weather events.  Cyclone =E > Typhoon = Hurricane for all practical purposes (except direction ofu > travel/spin).s >r >lB >> hurricanes and their effects.  There are also new materials and0 >> construction techniques developed constantly. > @ > Pointless if the government doesn't have the guts to force old( > buildings and trailer parks to comply. > , >> These all have bearing on the development >> of improved standards.s >e? > But politics are far more concerned about preserving votes ofeE > retirees who can't afford to upgrade their homes/trailers to properYF > standards. And politics don't want to portray Florida as a dangerousG > place, so they tolerate lots of buildings and trees that should nevern > be there.e >O >TC > People take their homes for granted and have forgotten that homesdA > provide life saving shelter from the elements, be it hurricane,oG > extreme cold, snow storms, flooding etc. And one must plan/build your D > home to widthstand the LOCAL threaths in terms of weather or otherE > cataclysms. Problem arises when a place such as Florida has so manyn< > people who lives elsewhere and move to Florida, not reallyD > knowledgeable of local dangers, thinking that because there are no@ > snow storms there, they need not be concerned about theor home$ > providing any life saving shelter. >2D > This is not too different from a disaster tolerant cluster design.C > You need to look at the whole picture to  decide what needs to beDD > backed up and then look at ALL the possible failure modes not only9 > fro the building, but also network, OS and application.n    E Not meaning to rain on your parade JF, but does the Quebec or OntarioeJ building code require that homes be equipped with electrical generators toK supply electricity for the inevitable ice storms which periodically hit the-5 region with varying degrees of intensity and breadth?-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:32:33 -0400p' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>e& Subject: RE: VMS marketing opportunityR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB45CD80@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry=20# > Sent: September 10, 2004 12:20 PMt > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com ( > Subject: RE: VMS marketing opportunity >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message-----/ > > From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]=20e$ > > Sent: September 10, 2004 9:21 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com * > > Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity > >=20 >=20 > [snip ..]  >=20 > >=20 > >=20A > > Not meaning to rain on your parade JF, but does the Quebec=20r > or OntarioC > > building code require that homes be equipped with electrical=20s > > generators tox= > > supply electricity for the inevitable ice storms which=20e > > periodically hit the9 > > region with varying degrees of intensity and breadth?e > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > John,z >=20: > I think the following picture will answer your question:6 > http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSIceStorm/jan12_nphoto1.html >=20= > By the way, on the topic of ice storms, think of similar=20-> > problem in Florida i.e. downed power lines, homes without=20@ > power, but then think about trying to fix all of this in -20C. >=20. > Other ice storm of '98 pictures and stories:- > http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSIceStorm/home.htmle- > http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSIceStorm/menu.htmln >=20	 > Regardst >=20 > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant9 > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660? > Fax: 613-591-4477  > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 >=20& > "OpenVMS has always had integrity ..  > Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .." >=20 >=20  E Btw, meant to mention that on the news yesterday, Ontario Hydro has aeH convey of hydro trucks heading to Florida to assist with power recovery.  
 Reference:D http://www.hydroone.com/en/media_centre/news_releases/2004_09_09.aspA "Hydro One sends "small army" of staff to assist in Florida powerp restoration     G Sept. 9, 2004 - Hydro One is sending a "small army" of almost 270 linesnB staff in over 130 trucks to Florida to assist in power restorationF following the devastation caused by recent hurricanes. Several million) people remain without power in the state.b  H These crews are expected to be in Florida for up to two weeks. They wereA drawn principally from southwestern, central and eastern Ontario.e  D Convoys crossed the border at Windsor, Fort Erie, and Gananoque near Kingston this morning.  H "Electric utilities have a long-standing tradition of helping each other? in times like these," explained Hydro One President and CEO Tom-E Parkinson. "Hydro One has among the best lines staff in North America H and we are pleased to help our American neighbours get power restored as soon as possible."=202  G All costs of the restoration efforts will be paid by the host utilitieseF (e.g. Florida Power and Light). Ontario electricity customers will not' be required to subsidize these efforts.K  E Hydro One still has sufficient resources to draw on if storms inflict> damage on its own system.   F Hydro One owns and operates the province-wide electricity high voltageC transmission network and largest low voltage distribution system inpD Ontario that serves over one million end-use customers. Hydro One is+ wholly-owned by the provincial government."e   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant. HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax: 613-591-4477u kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:44:24 GMTh! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> & Subject: Re: VMS marketing opportunity8 Message-ID: <d3m3k05rg50g4bp3cl697sqqo7jf7l71f0@4ax.com>  L On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:32:33 -0400, "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote:  F >Btw, meant to mention that on the news yesterday, Ontario Hydro has aI >convey of hydro trucks heading to Florida to assist with power recovery.u  P That will be a hell of a long cable all the way from Toronto!. Next time perhapsK they could haul optical cable as well & encourage the growth of US-Canadian ! disaster tolerant VMS clusters:-)e   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur>   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 2004 03:25:50 EDT) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook)a+ Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used? ! Message-ID: <b6grihiQH5qe@wvnvms>e  _ In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOEECDMAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:w > < -----Original Message-----= > < From: Bob Willard [mailto:BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net] / > < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:02 PMs > < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come/ > < Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?  > <  > <  > < Tom Linden wrote:w > < >uH > < > The 360 had triply redundant cpu's implementing  voting procedure. > < >a > <yL > < Whoa.  The 360 family included one member, the 360/67, that had multipleH > < CPUs and some redundancy.  But most 360s were strictly monoprocessor > < systems. > K > From a programmming point of view they had one cpu, but from the hardwareM > sideB > they had three.  Remember, we were discussing redundancy not MP. > C While it is true that IBM made a very specialized system for use in ? space craft which used 3 CPUs with a voting procedure, the "IBM C System/360 System Summary" makes no mention of any thing even close ? to what you describe.  FWIW, I also checked the "IBM System/3704C System Summary" which also makes no mention of any such feature.   c     George Cooki WVNET    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:52:27 -0700d# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e+ Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used? 9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIAEGADMAA.tom@kednos.com>e   < -----Original Message-----2 < From: George Cook [mailto:cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu]+ < Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 12:26 AM  < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com - < Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used?0 <  < A < In article <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIOEECDMAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom m" < Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:  < > < -----Original Message-----? < > < From: Bob Willard [mailto:BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net]f1 < > < Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:02 PMf < > < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt1 < > < Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?n < > <m < > <' < > < Tom Linden wrote:  < > < >bJ < > < > The 360 had triply redundant cpu's implementing  voting procedure. < > < >f < > <eB < > < Whoa.  The 360 family included one member, the 360/67, that  < had multipleJ < > < CPUs and some redundancy.  But most 360s were strictly monoprocessor < > < systems. < > A < > From a programmming point of view they had one cpu, but from e < the hardware < > sideD < > they had three.  Remember, we were discussing redundancy not MP. < > E < While it is true that IBM made a very specialized system for use inmA < space craft which used 3 CPUs with a voting procedure, the "IBMrE < System/360 System Summary" makes no mention of any thing even closeiA < to what you describe.  FWIW, I also checked the "IBM System/370aB < System Summary" which also makes no mention of any such feature.  D I don't think that it would have been described there but I could be' wrong.  I will try to find a reference.c   <  < 
 < George Cooki < WVNETl <  < --- ( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B < Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 <  ---l& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:00:18 -0700a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>s+ Subject: RE: why mainframes are still used?i9 Message-ID: <NDEMLKKEBOIFBMJLCECIEEGADMAA.tom@kednos.com>    < -----Original Message-----7 < From: Mike Bartman [mailto:omni@foolie.omniphile.com]x, < Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:53 PM < To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr- < Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?t <  < B < On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:39:45 -0400, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> < wrote: < D < >I thought the distinction between mainfram and anything else was 
 < whether the + < >system had a radiator and water pump ;-)  < B < If that's the case, the DECsystem-10 wasn't a mainframe...it wasA < aircooled (*lots* of muffin fans, top and bottom of each box!).e  H Here's a bit of trivia.  When Seymour Cray designed the 6600 to disipateD the heat the box was a refrigerator, the footprint of which was thatF of a plus sign.  He hired the lead engineer from Amanda Corporation toF design the enclosure.  Clock speed on the 6600 was 100 nanoseconds andJ it had a programmable pipeline, which was called the stack, and many other# nifty features.  This was ca. 1964.R   < F < Whether the Crays were mainframes or not would depend on whether youG < want to allow things other than water as the coolant.  The Cray 1 and G < the X/MPs were cooled by freon (contrary to popular belief, they weretG < not cryogenic...they were kept at room temp (about 72 F).  The Cray 2a@ < was cooled by a liquid flourocarbon similar to what's used forA < artificial blood.  I believe it was invented by 3M, but I'm not A < certain of that.  In both cases the coolant went through a heatbG < exchanger that was often cooled by water, but that wasn't part of thec < Cray system itself.e <  < -- Mike B. <  < -- Mike B. <  < '04 FLSTCI < B < ----------------------------------------------------------------? <   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address.g' <   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM... B < ---------------------------------------------------------------- <  < ---l( < Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< < Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B < Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 <  ---n& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:02:54 +0100aO From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>O+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?r0 Message-ID: <chsc6f$h0i$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Alex Daniels wrote:-L > "Andrew Harrison" <andrew_remove__s._harrison@s_u_n.com> wrote in message , > news:chp31m$f1u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >  >>JF Mezei wrote:7 >>$ >>>Mainframes have 2 selling points: >>> L >>>On a technical basis, I think that where IBM mainframes historically had  >>>aL >>>large edge was in IO throughput. (I think this could be debated nowadays  >>>though).< >>>p >>B >>The Sun E10K took the I/O crown away from IBM and it hasn't been >>returned.M >  > <SNIP> >  > Andrew Harrison > F > Are there any Sun boxes with greater maximum I/O bandwidth than the L > AlphaServer GS1280 at 222 GB/s ? If so can you please provide a reference. >   ? You apear to be labouring under the impression that I suggested-2 that the E10K still holds the I/O bandwidth crown.   It doesn't.0  < Nor was I suggesting that Sun holds the I/O bandwidth crown.  : My point was that IBM lost the I/O throughput crown a long% time ago and have never recovered it.t  > I would also be very carefull about suggesting that the GS1280@ can do 222 GB/s in I/O bandwidth as you appear to be attempting,< that is the maximum bandwidth, measured bandwidth using real? applications is much lower than that at 15 GB/s, lower than theo measured bandwidth on an F25K.   regardse Andrew Harrison4   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:59:56 -0700R* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used? 2 Message-ID: <gdmdnd867Y_wXNzcRVn-hQ@mpowercom.net>  7 "George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message   news:b6grihiQH5qe@wvnvms... E > While it is true that IBM made a very specialized system for use inDA > space craft which used 3 CPUs with a voting procedure, the "IBMoE > System/360 System Summary" makes no mention of any thing even closevA > to what you describe.  FWIW, I also checked the "IBM System/370 B > System Summary" which also makes no mention of any such feature. >aL This sounds more like the IBM Federal Systems Space Shuttle cockpit system, J 3 way voting but I believe it was based on Series 1 16-bitters, not 360s. L Triple-redundancy 360 CPUs in the 60's would have made IBM uncompetitive in  cost with Univac and the rest.   Jack Peacock a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:48:33 -0400-. From: Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?s8 Message-ID: <83i3k0tjklvg1orhi0edruof9qhd157oe2@4ax.com>  F On 9 Sep 2004 22:40:59 -0700, spinoza1111@yahoo.com (Edward G. Nilges) wrote:l >arjdombivli@indiatimes.com (ashok) wrote in message news:<1dc813f.0409062324.24f401b@posting.google.com>... >> dear all,  2 >> which are the operating systems for mainframes?  D >(4) Sorry, don't have info on non-IBM mainframe OSs although Unisys >makes...something.e   DEC had TOPS-10 and TOPS-20.   Cray had COS and UniCOS.  " CDC used NOS and NOS-BE I believe.  & >> How they are different from the PC? >lD >In actuality and at the fundamental level, not by much in the senseF >that both mainframe and PCs are meant to compute answers and also letE >us play Doom. But the PC allows each one of us to have his very own,DE >completely wrong in most cases, set of files that reflects a modallyhG >delusional world view. This is known as a weltanschaung, and it is whye >Bush voters like computers.  @ Glad to see you aren't going to hand the kid his entire homework assignment... ;-)@  3 >> which are the mainframe manufacturing companies?o > B >IBM and Unisys are about it, along with Japanese that manufacture >clones.   DEC->Compaq->HPy   Amdahl?l  C Does Unisys still make them, or was that back before the merger?  I @ still remember their first post-merger advertising blunder...theD slogan "Two, to the power of One"...not a really great mistake for aE computer company to make, and hastilly changed.  I know my school had 5 a Univac Spectra at one point...replaced by a PDP-10.-  B In the last few years at a show I've seen a company selling PDP-10C clones that use modern technology (the whole TOPS-10 running systemoE could fit under a large desk) so that folks with legacy apps can keepaB running them without spending so much on maintenance and power andE space.  Don't remember the name of the company though...it wasn't onec of the majors.  E >Smoking (1830..1990) to smoke around the mainframe because for earlypF >mainframe "hard disks", a single smoke particle was like a boulder on
 >a runway.  C That's even more true of PC disks...but they are sealed, unlike thev old removable disk pack drives.Y  B >The Cray supercomputer, in fact, was graced with a circular benchC >designed for storage of tools but which also was most commodious.    > Ummm...wrong.  The "bench" around the Cray 1 and X/MP machinesD consisted of power supplies.  Each power supply was connected to twoC vertical columns of modules by some 1/2" square bus bars (the wholey@ machine ate about 100KW).  Each module was a copper plate with aE multi-layer PC board on each side, and the columns were aluminum with F copper pipes embedded in them (Cray had a pattent on how you did that) to carry the Freon coolant.C  J >You could sit and jaw with the customer engineers about hunting season in- >Minnesota which is where Seymour Cray lived.h  B I believe Seymore lived in Wisconsin.  Chippewa Falls to be exact.> That's where the hardware was built.  Minneapolis is where theC headquarters was, and the training facility was closer to St. Paul.t  A >In the salad days of the mainframe, hundreds of lights displayedSD >status including whether the mainframe was talking ASCII or EBCDIC,F >whether or not it had encountered an IO error, and whether or not you8 >had just pushed the button marked "destroy everything".  A Yeah, you could actually tell whether there was a problem by justnD looking at the thing...even with a DECsystem-10, which had far fewer( lights than some IBM machines I've seen.  C Ever hear anyone play a tune on a line printer?  People had so muche3 more spare time back before we all had computers...Z  
 -- Mike B.  @ ----------------------------------------------------------------=   To reply via e-mail, remove the 'foolie.' from the address. %   I'm getting sick of all the SPAM... @ ----------------------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:00:48 -0400 & From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?h8 Message-ID: <4an3k05v44lbhqql3ka7k70h0mk6472e6o@4ax.com>  J On 9 Sep 2004 08:00:46 -0500, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:    >In article <gunvj0t3qte5sekht4293fnolpnla2ooq1@4ax.com>, Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:> On 8 Sep 2004 14:08:13 -0500, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.orgd >> e: >> Just about all computers at the time were larger than a >> refrigeratora >oF >   Our LSI-11, PDP-11/34, PDP-11/23, MicroPDP-8, ... were not bigger F >   than a refigerator.  I'm not sure DEC ever built a PDP-8 that was G >   bigger than a refrigerator, although the layout tended to use more s< >   floor space.  DECSYSTEM 2020 were also physically small. >-G >   Of these I think only the PDP-11/23 did not predate the VAX 11/780.   G The PDP-8/I that I first worked on was about refrigerator-sized, as its O construction was a wide/tall wire-wrapped backplane with lots of "modules". TheeO next ones after that (that I worked on) were PDP-8/E's, which were 19-inch racktN sized and about a foot high, I suppose. They used a backplane called (I think)N the Omnibus. I designed a bunch of boards to plug in to the Omnibus when I was4 finishing up my coop plan EE degree at Georgia Tech.I ------------------------------------------------------------------------->I David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot com I Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)oI -------------------------------------------------------------------------s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:02:59 -0400e& From: David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com>+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used? 8 Message-ID: <rfn3k05tb27svglunoi9ej4m4uq3cfu4ec@4ax.com>  G On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:51:38 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:o   >s >  	<snip>$' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Z; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004s  O Tom -- if it's all the same to you, I would love for you to change your "quote"6M character in your newsreader from < to >. It would make reading your posts so$' much easier (for me, and maybe others). I -------------------------------------------------------------------------iI David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dot comnI Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writer only)bI -------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 13:34:45 -04003 From: Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com>s+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?2. Message-ID: <mddpt4u6n9m.fsf@panix5.panix.com>  0 Mike Bartman <omni@foolie.omniphile.com> writes:  D > In the last few years at a show I've seen a company selling PDP-10E > clones that use modern technology (the whole TOPS-10 running systemoG > could fit under a large desk) so that folks with legacy apps can keep D > running them without spending so much on maintenance and power andG > space.  Don't remember the name of the company though...it wasn't onet > of the majors.  G That would have been XKL.  The Toad-1 was the size of a two-drawer filec cabinet.  6 I'm the one who ran the show booth you'd have visited.   --  L Rich Alderson                                       | /"\ ASCII ribbon     |L news@alderson.users.panix.com                       | \ / campaign against |L "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."    |  x  HTML mail and    |L                          --Death, of the Endless    | / \ postings         |   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:38:36 GMTE! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>-+ Subject: Re: why mainframes are still used?E8 Message-ID: <7ep3k09qiqgod3oevem3ee6og1c0ceos4h@4ax.com>  K On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:02:59 -0400, David M Smith <dsmit115@csc.com> wrote:   P >Tom -- if it's all the same to you, I would love for you to change your "quote"N >character in your newsreader from < to >. It would make reading your posts so( >much easier (for me, and maybe others).  K I'll vote for that too. If you could trim to context too that would be evenu better.e   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Sep 2004 03:23:38 -0700. From: fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso), Subject: Re: [OT]: The state of CS education< Message-ID: <f30679fb.0409100223.620f808@posting.google.com>  d David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<413FBE87.D5472B5@comcast.net>... > John Smith wrote:i > > G > > http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=29100069s > I > Fortunately, keeping a VMS system going doesn't take a PhD, just a good-J > head for the concepts and the ability to see how the pieces fit into the > bigger picture.e > I > Certainly, the degree would help. However, if a low-grade moron like mes> > can go as far as I have in my time, anyone with a modicum ofI > intelligence should easily be able to learn enough on one's own to make0< > me look REALLY dumb! (Doesn't take much, I know (Steve!)). >  > D.J.D.  F IT /CS  is not a good option nowadays. I am happy because my youngest 9 brother entered at the Uni. in the Chem. Engineer career.    Click (read) below.r   Fabio C.    g http://news.com.com/EDS+to+cut+up+to+20%2C000+jobs+over+two+years/2100-1011_3-5360552.html?tag=nefd.top   + EDS to cut up to 20,000 jobs over two years.) Published: September 9, 2004, 5:23 PM PDT  By Ed Frauenheim b Staff Writer, CNET News.com/                  rE Electronic Data Systems plans to cut 15,000 to 20,000 jobs during the-D next two years, as the struggling technology services giant tries to# slash costs and regain its footing.   D EDS Chief Executive Officer Michael Jordan provided that estimate of@ job cuts Thursday, said company spokesman Kevin Lightfoot. "ThatC number can be modified," Lightfoot said. It is "really dependent on $ how well we transform the business."  D The firm, based in Plano, Texas, has about 122,000 employees. It hasC already cut about 5,000 employees in the past year or so, LightfoothC said. The company is working to trim its annual costs by $3 billionr@ through steps including workforce cuts, office consolidation and reduced supply expenses.  A EDS has been beset by challenges, including a recent downgrade bySE Moody's Investors Service of EDS debt to "junk" status, losses from a0E massive and troubled contract with the U.S. Navy and an ongoing probet/ by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.   C The probe covers topics including EDS stock-hedging efforts and the B events leading up to its earnings warning for the third quarter ofF 2002. In addition, the SEC has requested documents related to the Navy	 contract.W  D EDS would have posted a net loss for the second quarter this year if( not for the sale of a software division.  F EDS ousted its former CEO last year. The company brought in former CBSF chief Jordan and has been focusing on its core services of applicationF management, information technology outsourcing, and so-called businessF process outsourcing. Outsourcing refers to farming out tasks like data center management. "   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Sep 2004 12:39:10 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon), Subject: Re: [OT]: The state of CS education* Message-ID: <2qdljdFu7b75U1@uni-berlin.de>  < In article <f30679fb.0409100223.620f808@posting.google.com>,1 	fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes:e > H > IT /CS  is not a good option nowadays. I am happy because my youngest ; > brother entered at the Uni. in the Chem. Engineer career.-  G Some may not agree with you, as pointed out in an article pointed to by  our own illustrious John Smith:mI       http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=29100069   B      "Indeed, over the next decade, the Bureau of Labor Statistics?       sees the need for an additional 307,000 computer-software B       engineers, 184,000 systems analysts, 106,000 network-systems>       and data-communications analysts, and 103,000 managers." >  > Click (read) below.e > i > http://news.com.com/EDS+to+cut+up+to+20%2C000+jobs+over+two+years/2100-1011_3-5360552.html?tag=nefd.topr > - > EDS to cut up to 20,000 jobs over two years   1 I would flip burgers before I would work for EDS.t   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:12:06 -0400e# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>m, Subject: Re: [OT]: The state of CS education, Message-ID: <uMydnS7gReDYWdzcRVn-hQ@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:> > In article <f30679fb.0409100223.620f808@posting.google.com>,2 > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes: >>H >> IT /CS  is not a good option nowadays. I am happy because my youngest< >> brother entered at the Uni. in the Chem. Engineer career. > F > Some may not agree with you, as pointed out in an article pointed to$ > by our own illustrious John Smith: > E > http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=29100069t > D >      "Indeed, over the next decade, the Bureau of Labor Statistics >       sees the need foru > 4 > an additional 307,000 computer-software engineers,< JS: most of whom will actually be outsourced coders in India   >  184,000 systems analysts,5 JS: most of whom will actually be outsourced in India-  ; > 106,000 network-systems and data-communications analysts,s, JS: some of whom will be outsourced in India     > and 103,000 managers."I JS: most of whom *ought* to be outsourced in India or another country. IfyB you are hiring people in important positions who can't effectively; communicate in English, you may as well get them cheap. ;-)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:27:55 GMTu" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG, Subject: Re: [OT]: The state of CS education0 Message-ID: <00A37AB1.B44760DC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  U In article <2qdljdFu7b75U1@uni-berlin.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: = >In article <f30679fb.0409100223.620f808@posting.google.com>,c2 >	fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br (Fabio Cardoso) writes: >>  I >> IT /CS  is not a good option nowadays. I am happy because my youngest e< >> brother entered at the Uni. in the Chem. Engineer career. >hH >Some may not agree with you, as pointed out in an article pointed to by  >our own illustrious John Smith:J >      http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=29100069 >iC >     "Indeed, over the next decade, the Bureau of Labor Statisticsi@ >      sees the need for an additional 307,000 computer-softwareC >      engineers, 184,000 systems analysts, 106,000 network-systemse? >      and data-communications analysts, and 103,000 managers." 4                                              ^^^^^^^E Wow!  That will be good for the bartender/mixologist profession.  All F those new martini guzzlers will certainly put a tax on the behind-the-F bar worker when it's time for their 10am-3pm management lunch hour.  IE foresee other new jobs too...  More police to pull over these drunks. E More billable law(lie)yer hours when they need to defend these drunkseH in court for DWI charges, and more insurance company workers to handle  F the insurance surcharges for said DWIs.  This would increase these re-G quirement number for IT professionals as they will be needed to installn: the new systems to track all of these management offenses.  E Also, that's 1 drone-bee for every 5.6 worker-bees.  That's certainlye. an over inflated requirement from where I sit.  d --  < http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.r -- s, Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! t -- lK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMn   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2004.503 ************************