1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 10 Aug 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 443       Contents:$ <title>OpenVMS documentation</title>? Re: anyone using the WeatherDuck?  Other environmental monitor? ? Re: anyone using the WeatherDuck?  Other environmental monitor? + Changing Uppercase filenames into Lowercase / Re: Changing Uppercase filenames into Lowercase $ Re: CI, Gigaswitch hardware for sale$ Re: CI, Gigaswitch hardware for sale0 HEAT RELATED PROBLEMS; POWER OFF/ON, SUGGESTIONS4 Re: HEAT RELATED PROBLEMS; POWER OFF/ON, SUGGESTIONS? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine ? Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine  Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore?7 Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive 7 Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive 7 Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive 7 Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive  Re: lib$ tree routines Re: lib$ tree routines Re: lib$ tree routines Re: lib$ tree routines- Looking for template software for VMS  system 1 Re: Looking for template software for VMS  system : Re: Mark Hurd to be keynote speaker at HP Technology Forum$ Re: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 CD's in the UK$ Re: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 CD's in the UK+ Re: strange terminal-characteristic problem + Re: strange terminal-characteristic problem + Re: strange terminal-characteristic problem  Re: Vax/VMS Calculator Re: Vax/VMS Calculator Re: Vax/VMS Calculator? VAXstation 4000/90A's looking for a good home in Bristol UK.... * Re: [REQ] OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 CD's in the UK  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:31:10 -0500 (CDT)* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)- Subject: <title>OpenVMS documentation</title> 2 Message-ID: <05080921311013_20200298@antinode.org>  @    Am I the only one who is consistently annoyed by the VMS HTMLH documentation in which every page of every manual seems to have the sameA title?  Opening several manuals leaves one's desktop (or browser) @ cluttered with several icons (or tabs), each of which cheerfullyH identifies itself as "OpenVMS documentation", leaving the user who has aC short-term memory deficit pretty much in the dark about where Waldo 
 really is.  A    I'd say that this annoyance is second only to the _absolutely_ % _screaming_ USELESS search "feature".   /    But at least I'm not paying for maintenance.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 19:27:57 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)H Subject: Re: anyone using the WeatherDuck?  Other environmental monitor?, Message-ID: <3lsedtF13d2b2U2@individual.net>  , In article <42F8E854.C10AC74C@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > "BRANDON, JOHN M" wrote: >>  I >> Anyone using the WeatherDuck to monitor their data center environment?  > N > As I recall, VAXman uses it. And I think there was someone else who does whoA > had made an announcement about its availability some years ago.   8 I always wanted one, but couldn't justify the cost.  :-(   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:53:13 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORGH Subject: Re: anyone using the WeatherDuck?  Other environmental monitor?0 Message-ID: <00A48082.E9ACE2CC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <42F8E854.C10AC74C@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >"BRANDON, JOHN M" wrote:  >>  I >> Anyone using the WeatherDuck to monitor their data center environment?  > M >As I recall, VAXman uses it. And I think there was someone else who does who @ >had made an announcement about its availability some years ago.  J I obtained a "WeatherDuck" but my systems are monitored by the Measure-UPS installed in my APC UPSs.    --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:19:51 -0700 ! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca> 4 Subject: Changing Uppercase filenames into Lowercase& Message-ID: <42F95637.50700@triumf.ca>   Dear c.o.v. list,   9   I already found MAKEUP.COM which breaks down a filename 9   into its parts (device,directory,name,type,version) and 7   uses the RENAME command to rename lowercase names and    types to uppercase.   9   I tried a simple modification which supplied the second 9   argument to the RENAME command inside MAKEUP.COM with a )   lowercase filename. This DOES NOT WORK.   7   The filename remains uppercase because DCL uppercases :   everything on MAKEUP.COM's RENAME line.  And, the RENAME9   line in MAKEUP.COM does not seem to work with quotation %   marks around the lowercase portion.   8   I haven't yet found any combination of quotation marks<   that works with the RENAME or CREATE commands.  Ideas such7   as RENAME "FRED.TMP" "fred.tmp" do not work, nor does ;   CREATE "fred.tmp".  Specifying an FDL file with lowercase :   filename works, and it does create a lowercase filename,;   but that is a very cumbersome approach as I would have to :   ANALYSE/RMS/FDL every file and then edit the FDL file to?   put the filename spec into lowercase, and then use CREATE/FDL ;   to create a new but empty lowercase file and then I would ;   have to append the original uppercase file into that, and ;   then delete the original uppercase file.  That seems far,     far too complicated and bulky.  ,   However, I did stumble across this method:  (       RENAME &old_filename &new_filename  :   works just fine where the symbol old_filename represents6   the uppercase equivalent and the symbol new_filename<   contains the lowercase equivalent.  The ampersand operator:   prevents DCL from translating the symbol until after the;   command line is parsed, thus preventing the conversion of 2   the new_filename symbol's contents to uppercase.  2   Using this technique, I modified MAKEUP.COM into;   MAKELOWER.COM, removed one bug, and it works very well to 9   rename a whole directory full of schedules to lowercase 3   filenames which I can then directly FTP over to a 8   case-sensitive linux-based webserver with the MPUT FTP:   command. This allows me to match a meta-standard that we>   seem to have here about lowercase filenames on some servers.  7   I can send MAKELOWER.COM to whomever wants a copy for 5   evaluation.  I am not sure that it is bug-free yet.   6   But am I missing something easy?  Is there any other3   way to easily rename filenames to lowercase?  Has 8   something just zipped right over my head?  Searches on;   google.com and Openvms.org didn't produce useful results. 4   Can the CONVERT command be used to do what I want?     Thanks for your help.      .. fred bach  music@triumf.ca    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 20:04:08 -0700 $ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: Changing Uppercase filenames into LowercaseC Message-ID: <1123639494.951932.198660@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Fred Bach wrote: > Dear c.o.v. list,  >  [...] . >   However, I did stumble across this method: > * >       RENAME &old_filename &new_filename > < >   works just fine where the symbol old_filename represents8 >   the uppercase equivalent and the symbol new_filename> >   contains the lowercase equivalent.  The ampersand operator< >   prevents DCL from translating the symbol until after the= >   command line is parsed, thus preventing the conversion of 4 >   the new_filename symbol's contents to uppercase.    & Yet another use for the ampersand! &-)     [...] 8 >   But am I missing something easy?  Is there any other5 >   way to easily rename filenames to lowercase?  Has : >   something just zipped right over my head?  Searches on= >   google.com and Openvms.org didn't produce useful results. 6 >   Can the CONVERT command be used to do what I want?    F Sorry, can't help you with these questions. But what's wrong with your= ampersand method? How much simpler could any other method be?    AEF &-)    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:41:06 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) - Subject: Re: CI, Gigaswitch hardware for sale 3 Message-ID: <e4LggVoYDipZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <1123521449.165413.8210@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> writes:F > It's the end of an era around here - I migrated my disaster-tolerantI > cluster from CI-based storage to EVA storage.  This means that I've got G > a ton of stuff lying around here waiting to be sold.  This includes a F > dozen HSJ-50 controllers, 2 star couplers, 4 GigaSwitches, 7 CIPCAs,E > and 14 FDDI cards, plus, of course, a bunch of CI cabling.  Anybody = > interested in making offers?  You can email (do not post to G > comp.os.vms!) the offers or your interest to me but I won't be making G > the final decision (or even determining how we're going to dispose of 
 > it all).  K It would be more efficient for you to post some hint about where "here" is.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:18:48 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> - Subject: Re: CI, Gigaswitch hardware for sale 3 Message-ID: <cZ9Ke.10111$2i3.7994@news.cpqcorp.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:M > It would be more efficient for you to post some hint about where "here" is.   7 General area of St. Paul / Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:24:44 -0500 + From: brandon@dalsemi.com (BRANDON, JOHN M) 9 Subject: HEAT RELATED PROBLEMS; POWER OFF/ON, SUGGESTIONS 1 Message-ID: <05080917244428@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>   O In the past month we have had data center A/C problems.  This has been somewhat K problematic for the past two years.  This past July we lost our primary A/C < unit which caused severe heat problems for 2 weeks straight.  O During that 2 week interval our VMS servers would hang (for about an hour) then K crash, boot and hang again.  Not to mention the volume of meaningless SCSI  J traffic on the storage arrays (ESA 12K and EMA 12K).  This would typically= happen during the heat of the day (3-5PM) during the weekend.   ( We have since resolved the A/C problems.    N One of our servers is an ES40-2 which has internal sensors capability.  I have1 data from those sensors ranging back for 2 years.   * Looking at that data I find the following:   Problematic 2 years:'   Sensor readings ranged from 83 to 86.   ' Critical downtime last 2 weeks in July: '   Sensor readings ranged from 86 to 93. 9   Servers would hang around 89 and crash soon thereafter.    A/C problems resolved:'   Sensor readings ranged from 77 to 80.   K Due to the hangs and crashes, we are entertaining the thought of a complete O cluster shutdown including servers, storage, MC, SAN, etc.  Our thought is that C we have not had a gracefull shutdown and would like to pursue this.   ! Anyone have a similar experience?    Any thoughts on the matter?        John "REBOOT" Brandon  VMS Systems Administrator * firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:43:55 -0400- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> = Subject: Re: HEAT RELATED PROBLEMS; POWER OFF/ON, SUGGESTIONS 7 Message-ID: <8660a3a105080916432877f325@mail.gmail.com>   7 On 8/9/05, BRANDON, JOHN M <brandon@dalsemi.com> wrote: L > In the past month we have had data center A/C problems.  This has been so= mewhatL > problematic for the past two years.  This past July we lost our primary A= /C> > unit which caused severe heat problems for 2 weeks straight. >=20L > During that 2 week interval our VMS servers would hang (for about an hour= ) thenL > crash, boot and hang again.  Not to mention the volume of meaningless SCS= I L > traffic on the storage arrays (ESA 12K and EMA 12K).  This would typicall= y ? > happen during the heat of the day (3-5PM) during the weekend.  >=20* > We have since resolved the A/C problems. >=20 >=20L > One of our servers is an ES40-2 which has internal sensors capability.  I=  have 3 > data from those sensors ranging back for 2 years.  >=20, > Looking at that data I find the following: >=20 > Problematic 2 years:) >   Sensor readings ranged from 83 to 86.  >=20) > Critical downtime last 2 weeks in July: ) >   Sensor readings ranged from 86 to 93. ; >   Servers would hang around 89 and crash soon thereafter.  >=20 > A/C problems resolved:) >   Sensor readings ranged from 77 to 80.  >=20L > Due to the hangs and crashes, we are entertaining the thought of a comple= teL > cluster shutdown including servers, storage, MC, SAN, etc.  Our thought i= s thatE > we have not had a gracefull shutdown and would like to pursue this.  >=20# > Anyone have a similar experience?  >=20 > Any thoughts on the matter?  >=20 >=20 >=20 > John "REBOOT" Brandon  > VMS Systems Administrator , > firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com >=20  3 Are you still seeing instabilities in your cluster?   H If not, what would you hope to gain from a complete cluster shutdown,=203 other than resetting all your error counts to zero?   C Of course, it could give you an opportunity to do a DR test. . .=20 J if you have a high confidence level in both your backups and your DR plan.   Regards,   WWWebb --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:55:49 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine3 Message-ID: <V_6Ke.10092$T13.5727@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:< > There is no EV9. Itanium is not going to be the new Alpha.6  > Itanium will need to sink or swim on its own merits  I The Alpha design team is working on Tukwila, and positive differences in  D that chip's design and performance thanks to their involvement will * become evident. Can't say more due to NDA.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:58:08 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine3 Message-ID: <417Ke.10093$T13.6206@news.cpqcorp.net>    JF Mezei wrote: P > Where there is money and huge demand/volume, there is a way to get performance > out of a chip.  G But old designs can have bottlenecks and technical limitations that no  , amount of creative engineering can overcome.  G Intel is telling us that by 2006, Itanium and Xeon chips will cost the  E same, and fit in the same motherboard sockets, but Itanium will have   twice the performance.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 19:26:53 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine, Message-ID: <3lsebsF13d2b2U1@individual.net>  3 In article <417Ke.10093$T13.6206@news.cpqcorp.net>, 4 	Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> writes: > JF Mezei wrote: Q >> Where there is money and huge demand/volume, there is a way to get performance  >> out of a chip.  > I > But old designs can have bottlenecks and technical limitations that no  . > amount of creative engineering can overcome.   So can new designs.    > I > Intel is telling us that by 2006, Itanium and Xeon chips will cost the  G > same, and fit in the same motherboard sockets, but Itanium will have   > twice the performance.  D 2006 is only about 4 months from now.  How much does an Itanium chipA cost today?  Are we expected to believe that there is going to be B some magic scientific breakthru in the next 4 months to cause thatC cost to drop or are they really saying that they are going to raise A the price of Xeon to match Itanium in order to try to recoup some / of the massive investment they made in Itanium?   / You'll pardon me if I remain somewhat skeptical    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:32:17 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine= Message-ID: <ht-dna-aRqJfmWTfRVn-vg@metrocastcablevision.com>    Keith Parris wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > = >> There is no EV9. Itanium is not going to be the new Alpha.  > 8 >  > Itanium will need to sink or swim on its own merits > - > The Alpha design team is working on Tukwila   G The most recent word from Intel (last winter, IIRC) was that the Alpha  I team had been pulled off Tukwila and that it was given to the HP team to  G respin the current Itanic core (dating back to McKinley in large part)  D yet one more time (not that they've exactly covered themselves with I glory in any of the earlier attempts).  If the Alpha team is really back  I on the case (not that this seems likely, given the usual quality of your  I information), then with yet another lurch in a new direction what seemed  H likely to be a slip into 2008 for Tukwila's ship date now seems assured H (and that far out there's hardly any guarantee that there will be *any* & real Itanic development still afloat).   , and positive differences in F > that chip's design and performance thanks to their involvement will , > become evident. Can't say more due to NDA.  F As I said, given the usual quality of your information (and, for that E matter, most parroted spin from ZK engineering about future Itanics:  I you guys really shouldn't stake your own reputations on the kind of hype  H that whomever you're listening to is dishing out), that's not something 1 anyone would be well-advised to take to the bank.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:11:55 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine= Message-ID: <-66dnalMIcqWk2TfRVn-jA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Keith Parris wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > F >> Where there is money and huge demand/volume, there is a way to get  >> performance >> out of a chip.  >  > I > But old designs can have bottlenecks and technical limitations that no  . > amount of creative engineering can overcome.  H And as Itanic demonstrates so clearly, so can new ones.  The difference G is that for as well-established a market as x86's is it's worth almost  I any amount of effort to make the beast work, whereas pushing a millstone  E like Itanic up hill for well over a decade attempting to establish a  I *new* market eventually becomes an obviously lost cause (because there's  F just no profit in it:  at best, it might eventually break even on the F margins, and unless Intel has deteriorated into senescence it has far $ better uses for its time and money).   > I > Intel is telling us that by 2006, Itanium and Xeon chips will cost the  G > same, and fit in the same motherboard sockets, but Itanium will have   > twice the performance.  E No, that's what Intel *was* telling us quite a while ago, before AMD  C forced their x86 hand in both core count and performance (and very  I specifically in their hard turn away from P4 Netburst toward higher-IPC,  B lower-frequency, far more efficient chips from the Pentium mobile D family).  Back then, Intel was planning 4-core 65 nm. Itanics (what F Montvale used to be) for 2006 and only 2-core, Netburst-hobbled Xeons E (funny how that works out such that a marketeer can claim double the  J performance, without mentioning that it takes double the cores to get it).  @ Now, the next Itanic (Montvale) after Montecito is just another H dual-core chip in the same process (in fact, a real yawner of a release H in terms of new features).  And don't expect it noticeably before 2007, H by the way:  it'll be hard enough getting Montecito out the door by the > end of this year.  Montvale will be up against the dual-core, H highly-efficient Intel x86 mobile descendants that Intel so desperately I needs to compete with Opterons (which only had to drop back 400 MHz when  C the second core was added - and seem to be running cooler as well,  G leaving them plenty of head-room), not the out-of-steam Netburst Xeons.   F And, incidentally, I'm pretty sure that it's Tukwila (which as I just H noted elsewhere is looking more like a 2008 product now), not Montvale, F that will share a common socket with its x86 siblings:  while the x86 G parts may actually ship in that configuration a whisker before the end  E of 2006, no Itanic using the common socket will - and quite possibly   will not in 2007 either.  I So you really should keep up with what's happening out in the real world  G if you're going to presume to try to tell others about it:  otherwise,  H you come off looking pretty incompetent, and that doesn't do your cause & (misguided though it may be) any good.  A Of course, both Intel's and AMD's x86-64 chips don't require the  F gargantuan caches that Itanic does to get decent performance - so the H only way that Intel will be able to sell Itanic at price parity will be G to take a bath on each one sold - something it must be getting awfully   tired of by now.  G Must not be a very happy time to be an Itanic cheerleader these days -  3 and I'm afraid things are only likely to get worse.   - Perhaps you should take up a different hobby.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 13:57:46 -0700  From: bob@instantwhip.com H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just FineC Message-ID: <1123621066.721466.183120@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   / you still insist to bet againset the alpha team  which is a huge mistake ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:23:39 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine0 Message-ID: <11fi7f8e9ej4i0d@corp.supernews.com>   Keith Parris wrote:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > = >> There is no EV9. Itanium is not going to be the new Alpha.  > 8 >  > Itanium will need to sink or swim on its own merits > K > The Alpha design team is working on Tukwila, and positive differences in  F > that chip's design and performance thanks to their involvement will , > become evident. Can't say more due to NDA.  G Can you at least say that the Alpha people have replaced the HP people   that replaced them last winter?   G If not, then we're witnessing a new low in the lies that have come out  
 of Compaq/HP.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:34:52 -0700  From: icerq4a@spray.seH Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just FineC Message-ID: <1123623292.948859.130080@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > Keith Parris wrote:  > > JF Mezei wrote:  > > G > >> Where there is money and huge demand/volume, there is a way to get  > >> performance > >> out of a chip.  > >  > > J > > But old designs can have bottlenecks and technical limitations that no0 > > amount of creative engineering can overcome. > I > And as Itanic demonstrates so clearly, so can new ones.  The difference H > is that for as well-established a market as x86's is it's worth almostJ > any amount of effort to make the beast work, whereas pushing a millstoneF > like Itanic up hill for well over a decade attempting to establish aJ > *new* market eventually becomes an obviously lost cause (because there'sG > just no profit in it:  at best, it might eventually break even on the G > margins, and unless Intel has deteriorated into senescence it has far & > better uses for its time and money). >  > > J > > Intel is telling us that by 2006, Itanium and Xeon chips will cost theH > > same, and fit in the same motherboard sockets, but Itanium will have > > twice the performance. > ; > No, that's what Intel *was* telling us quite a while ago,   F Intel has never said 2006 for the common chipset. There are also still@ hints that they will offer a 8-core version of Tukwila some time! (within a year) after the 4-core.    > before AMDD > forced their x86 hand in both core count and performance (and veryJ > specifically in their hard turn away from P4 Netburst toward higher-IPC,C > lower-frequency, far more efficient chips from the Pentium mobile 
 > family).  4 Netburst was on it's way out even without AMDs push.  9 Back then, Intel was planning 4-core 65 nm. Itanics (what  > Montvale used to be)  6 Montvale was never 4-core. It was a Montecito in 65nm.  1  for 2006 and only 2-core, Netburst-hobbled Xeons F > (funny how that works out such that a marketeer can claim double theL > performance, without mentioning that it takes double the cores to get it). > A > Now, the next Itanic (Montvale) after Montecito is just another I > dual-core chip in the same process (in fact, a real yawner of a release I > in terms of new features).  And don't expect it noticeably before 2007, I > by the way:  it'll be hard enough getting Montecito out the door by the ? > end of this year.  Montvale will be up against the dual-core, I > highly-efficient Intel x86 mobile descendants that Intel so desperately J > needs to compete with Opterons (which only had to drop back 400 MHz whenD > the second core was added - and seem to be running cooler as well,I > leaving them plenty of head-room), not the out-of-steam Netburst Xeons.  > G > And, incidentally, I'm pretty sure that it's Tukwila (which as I just ; > noted elsewhere is looking more like a 2008 product now),   @ In the very recent roadmaps I have seen Intel still say 2007 for Tukwila.   > not Montvale, 8 > that will share a common socket with its x86 siblings:  E That has never been the case. Montvale is the last CPU with FSB. (and G perhaps not many know this... The IA64 CPUs after Montvale will not use  the name Itanium 2)   B > Of course, both Intel's and AMD's x86-64 chips don't require theG > gargantuan caches that Itanic does to get decent performance - so the I > only way that Intel will be able to sell Itanic at price parity will be H > to take a bath on each one sold - something it must be getting awfully > tired of by now.  / Well, there are Xeon MP's with 8MB cache today. ? The hit there is much harder since Xeon MP's are sold in larger  volumes.C The 3MB L3 versions have pretty good performance too and Itanium is  still suffering with its FSB.   H > Must not be a very happy time to be an Itanic cheerleader these days -5 > and I'm afraid things are only likely to get worse.   , It depends on what expectations one have. ;)   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:18:49 -0700  From: icerq4a@spray.seH Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just FineB Message-ID: <1123622329.239723.97290@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Bill Todd skrev:   > Keith Parris wrote:  > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > ? > >> There is no EV9. Itanium is not going to be the new Alpha.  > > : > >  > Itanium will need to sink or swim on its own merits > > / > > The Alpha design team is working on Tukwila  > H > The most recent word from Intel (last winter, IIRC) was that the AlphaJ > team had been pulled off Tukwila and that it was given to the HP team to! > respin the current Itanic core.   8 Intel has not confirmed it, although part of it is true.  (  (dating back to McKinley in large part)E > yet one more time (not that they've exactly covered themselves with ( > glory in any of the earlier attempts).  F There is nothing wrong in the McKinley core as I see it. It is doing a@ very good job. The Itanium microarchitecture designer have had aC tougher job than a lot of other microarchitecure designer and given D their task I would say they should be proud. Sam Naffziger is a very talented person.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:25:32 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine0 Message-ID: <11fi7ig256cde88@corp.supernews.com>   Keith Parris wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > F >> Where there is money and huge demand/volume, there is a way to get  >> performance >> out of a chip.  >  > I > But old designs can have bottlenecks and technical limitations that no  . > amount of creative engineering can overcome. > I > Intel is telling us that by 2006, Itanium and Xeon chips will cost the  G > same, and fit in the same motherboard sockets, but Itanium will have   > twice the performance.  H And where will Opteron be on that performance chart?  If still ahead of G Xeon, Intel will be hurting.  If not, then I have serious doubts about   the itanic keeping up.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:24:46 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just FineR Message-ID: <TNqdnZ2dnZ1VcD_SnZ2dnaKmZN-dnZ2dRVn-yJ2dnZ0@metrocastcablevision.com>   icerq4a@spray.se wrote:    ...   H > There is nothing wrong in the McKinley core as I see it. It is doing a > very good job.  G At consuming inordinate amounts of power and cache for the performance   it provides, anyway.  3   The Itanium microarchitecture designer have had a ; > tougher job than a lot of other microarchitecure designer   F And have had over a decade now to get it right (as much time as Alpha E had between its conception and EV6, in fact).  Not to mention having  F off-loaded a significant portion of the job onto the compiler writers.     and given F > their task I would say they should be proud. Sam Naffziger is a very > talented person.  B I certainly respect whatever part he played in taming Montecito's F appetite for power - but that (and most other respectable features of F McKinley) falls into the category of overcoming significant intrinsic ? architectural obstacles rather than of anything resembling the   achievement of greatness.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:51:10 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine= Message-ID: <WLednc0kYbny3GTfRVn-rA@metrocastcablevision.com>    icerq4a@spray.se wrote:    ...   3 > Intel has never said 2006 for the common chipset.   H While I haven't seen an Intel press release on the subject (it was only D a few weeks ago that they started talking to the press about CSI at F all), Intel was *reported* to have been shooting to introduce CSI for E x86 by the end of 2006 (and originally for Itanic as well, back when  % Tukwila was scheduled for late 2006).      There are also stillB > hints that they will offer a 8-core version of Tukwila some time# > (within a year) after the 4-core.   ? There are all kinds of hints, both positive and negative.  The  F mysterious Poulson name popped up early this year - unless that's the F 8-core Tukwila you're talking about, seems like things might be a bit C crowded (i.e., I'm guessing that only one of them - at most - will   actually come to pass).    >  >  >>before AMDD >>forced their x86 hand in both core count and performance (and veryJ >>specifically in their hard turn away from P4 Netburst toward higher-IPC,C >>lower-frequency, far more efficient chips from the Pentium mobile 
 >>family). >  > 6 > Netburst was on it's way out even without AMDs push.  9 Without AMD's push, *all* of x86 would be on its way out.    > ; > Back then, Intel was planning 4-core 65 nm. Itanics (what  >  >>Montvale used to be) >  > 8 > Montvale was never 4-core. It was a Montecito in 65nm.  H I guess I'll take your word for that:  the only early information I had  about Montvale was speculative.    ...   B > In the very recent roadmaps I have seen Intel still say 2007 for
 > Tukwila.  E Funny - they don't on those I've seen:  they go 2005, 2006, and then  I 'future' (no explicit date provided).  See some recent Inquirer pictures   of them, for example.    >  >  >>not Montvale, 8 >>that will share a common socket with its x86 siblings: >  > B > That has never been the case. Montvale is the last CPU with FSB.   I know:  that's what I said.  C  >>Of course, both Intel's and AMD's x86-64 chips don't require the H  >>gargantuan caches that Itanic does to get decent performance - so theJ  >>only way that Intel will be able to sell Itanic at price parity will beI  >>to take a bath on each one sold - something it must be getting awfully   >>tired of by now.   >  >2  > Well, there are Xeon MP's with 8MB cache today.B  > The hit there is much harder since Xeon MP's are sold in larger  > volumes.   I No, the hit is much smaller because the 8 MB Xeon caches are fabbed in a  D 90 nm. process while the 9 MB Itanic caches are fabbed in a 130 nm. 8 process and hence take up about twice as much chip area.  > When Itanic hits 90 nm., it will have 12 MB caches (per core).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:58:27 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine+ Message-ID: <42F95132.7F6B900@teksavvy.com>    Keith Parris wrote: H > Intel is telling us that by 2006, Itanium and Xeon chips will cost theF > same, and fit in the same motherboard sockets, but Itanium will have > twice the performance.  1 Have they now moved ahead the 2007 date to 2006 ?   M IA64 won't have twice the performance of the 8086. In fact, it is more likely K that the performance gap between IA64 and 8086 will narrow, especially once 1 they share the same support chipsets and systems.     N People won't spend any "premium" money for an IA64 system when the 8086 system) will perform just as well for less price.     I Remember that Rob has mentioned that IA64 can afford to sell lower volume  because it sells at a premium.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:14:26 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine+ Message-ID: <42F954F1.BC2FF39@teksavvy.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > 1 > you still insist to bet againset the alpha team  > which is a huge mistake ...   G Bob, what percentage of the Alpha team are still working at Intel/HP ?    L Of those working for Intel, what percentage are working on the 8086 and what percentage on the IA64 thing ?  H Remember that RISC tricks may not integrate that well into an EPIC chip.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:31:00 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> H Subject: Re: InformationWeek: Intel Says Itanium Chip Is Doing Just Fine, Message-ID: <42F958D1.BD1972CF@teksavvy.com>   Bill Todd wrote:; > Without AMD's push, *all* of x86 would be on its way out.   I I am not convinced of that. While this may have been the original plan at K Intel to justify spending billions on that IA64 contraption, at once point, M well before AMD started to be more than a token competitor under leash, Intel I realised that IA64 wouldn't cut it as "industry standard" high volume and J abandonned plans for it to replace the 8086. This was before June 25 2001.  K I think Intel was hoping that IA64 could survive in a enterprise niche with 3 the 8086 restricted to wintel crap at the low end.    J And that is where AMD comes into play, when it unleashes its 64 bit 8086 ,L forcing intel to also release 64 bit 8086, and follow AMD with dual core etc# etc, leaving IA64 as an "also ran".    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:43:45 GMT ' From: "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@hp.com> % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? 3 Message-ID: <BP6Ke.10090$V73.9190@news.cpqcorp.net>   0 "WildCat" <jplahman@yahoo.com> wrote in message < news:1123607899.301714.22910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...G > Am I correct to read that The Inquirer is reporting that OVMS support D > is going to Costa Rica and the rest of OVMS is going to Bangalore? >  > Is this really true? >   L Only if Costa Rica is just outside Colorado Springs, CO, and Bangalore is a  suburb of Nashua, NH.    Mike     ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:09:53 -0500 / From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? - Message-ID: <tregODNlMk11@cuebid.zko.dec.com>   & "WildCat" <jplahman@yahoo.com> writes:G > Am I correct to read that The Inquirer is reporting that OVMS support D > is going to Costa Rica and the rest of OVMS is going to Bangalore? >  > Is this really true?   	No, it is not true. --    M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.com    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 12:23:38 -0700 $ From: "WildCat" <jplahman@yahoo.com>% Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? B Message-ID: <1123615418.894918.65960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Here's a link to the article:   ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25182          Rob Brooks wrote: ( > "WildCat" <jplahman@yahoo.com> writes:I > > Am I correct to read that The Inquirer is reporting that OVMS support F > > is going to Costa Rica and the rest of OVMS is going to Bangalore? > >  > > Is this really true? >  > 	No, it is not true. > -- > O > Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:42:49 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>% Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? 5 Message-ID: <090820051524505611%paul.anderson@hp.com>   8 In article <tregODNlMk11@cuebid.zko.dec.com>, Rob Brooks% <brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam> wrote:   ( > "WildCat" <jplahman@yahoo.com> writes:I > > Am I correct to read that The Inquirer is reporting that OVMS support F > > is going to Costa Rica and the rest of OVMS is going to Bangalore? > >  > > Is this really true? >  >  No, it is not true.  6 But it is true that he read that the Inquirer said it.   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineering    Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:44:44 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>% Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? 3 Message-ID: <MI7Ke.10096$qb3.3787@news.cpqcorp.net>    WildCat wrote: > Here's a link to the article:  > + > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25182  >  >   0 Yes, we've all read the article.  It isn't true.   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:50:46 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? A Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050809134919.0254eb68@raptor.psccos.com>   ( At 01:44 PM 8/9/2005, John Reagan wrote: >WildCat wrote:  >>Here's a link to the article: + >>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25182  > 1 >Yes, we've all read the article.  It isn't true.   H Well, for what it's worth, the Colorado Springs Gazette had, a couple ofJ days ago, an article on this.  It mentioned not only the Inquirer article,J but also a "secret HP memo", whose existence was confirmed supposedly by aD senior HP official, stating much of the same thing that the Inquirer said.    Does that change anything?   ------J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+J | Dan O'Reilly                  |  "There are 10 types of people in this |J | Principal Engineer            |   world: those who understand binary   |J | Process Software              |   and those who don't."                |J | http://www.process.com        |                                        |J +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:45:13 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? 3 Message-ID: <am1xzTd8is8S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <090820051524505611%paul.anderson@hp.com>, Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> writes:: > In article <tregODNlMk11@cuebid.zko.dec.com>, Rob Brooks' > <brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam> wrote:  > ) >> "WildCat" <jplahman@yahoo.com> writes: J >> > Am I correct to read that The Inquirer is reporting that OVMS supportG >> > is going to Costa Rica and the rest of OVMS is going to Bangalore?  >> >   >> > Is this really true?  >>   >>  No, it is not true.  > 8 > But it is true that he read that the Inquirer said it.  F Yes, he reading skill vastly surpasses his choice of reading material.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:55:14 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? , Message-ID: <42F95072.5C54E14C@teksavvy.com>  L Bigger question: will HELPLIB.HLB come in Hindi language by default when you install VMS ?   M Will the owner VMS provide Hindi fonts for VT terminals as well as DECwindows 
 software ?  G Will VMS come with self-learning CBI to learn to speak/read/write Hindi 
 language ?  A Will VMS mail be updated to support MIME encoding of Hindi text ?     M For the VMS engineers, it won't be so bad. I am sure they will get nice homes K in Bangalore, and regular trips to the resorts along the indian ocean where ? they can play golf etc etc. Just hope they like indian food :-)    :-) ;-) ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:01:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? , Message-ID: <42F951CF.C2E7699C@teksavvy.com>   Rob Brooks wrote:  > > Is this really true? >  >         No, it is not true.     M What you haven't realised is that they beamed you into a large holodeck where L a recreation of ZKO is running and while you think you are still at ZKO, youL are actually on a ship crossing the pacific and then indian ocean to deliver= you to your new permanent home and you won't even realise it.   T And the commands "computer" and "arch" have been disabled from the holodeck systems.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:02:13 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? , Message-ID: <42F95213.78340574@teksavvy.com>   John Reagan wrote:2 > Yes, we've all read the article.  It isn't true.  G And if, on June 24 2001, the inquirer had an article stating Compaq was < murdering Alpha, you would also have stated "it isn't true".   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:56:15 GMT 9 From: Bob Harris <nospam.News.Bob@remove.Smith-Harris.us> % Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? D Message-ID: <nospam.News.Bob-A0268F.22562209082005@news.verizon.net>  , In article <42F951CF.C2E7699C@teksavvy.com>,/  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:    > Rob Brooks wrote:  > > > Is this really true? > >  > >         No, it is not true.  >  > O > What you haven't realised is that they beamed you into a large holodeck where N > a recreation of ZKO is running and while you think you are still at ZKO, youN > are actually on a ship crossing the pacific and then indian ocean to deliver? > you to your new permanent home and you won't even realise it.  > N > And the commands "computer" and "arch" have been disabled from the holodeck 
 > systems.  G And what you don't know is that just adjacent to the ZKO caf is a game  $ room with the title:  "ZKO Holodeck"  I This game room was built as part of the post Compaq merger.  So folks in  H ZKO have had a Holodeck for several years, and since the VMS developers I have to pass right by it on the way to the caf, I'm sure they would know  1 if they are inside or outside of the Holodeck :-)   F And having lived through the Digital/Compaq Merger, and the Compaq/HP C merger, and the Alpha/Itanium switch announcement, _BUT_ not HP-UX  D killing the TruCluster and AdvFS port), it is true that most of the D troops did not know, and would not believe it when rumors flew days  before the announcements.   J On the other hand, maybe the target is close, but just off by one floor.  G The residual of Tru64 UNIX engineering is just down one floor from VMS  I development, and Tru64 UNIX is officially in maintenance mode.  So maybe  G it is Tru64 UNIX that is having its support and sustaining engineering   moved off-shore.  2                                         Bob Harris   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 21:09:41 -0700  From: dooleys@snowy.net.au% Subject: Re: Is OVMS going Bangalore? C Message-ID: <1123646981.695845.127970@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   0 fyi Hindi is not the local language in BangaloreE the "highlands" of South India have a much better climate for playing  golf than the coast 3 a masala dosa (or two) makes a very good breakfast   Phil   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:31:30 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) @ Subject: Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive3 Message-ID: <nvpJKlSjLm9s@eisner.encompasserve.org>   G In article <42f7522c$1@news1.ethz.ch>, S <soterroatyahoodotcom> writes:   E > In my nice ideal world a software driver would be less privileged,  J > supervised by a kernel mode manager taking care of the sensitive issues  > (like that address shoving).  C I would gather, then, that your ideal world is centered on painting D the roses red.  There is still code which has provided an address toD hardware, which has the ability to DMA to the address.  Renaming theF code to be something else accomplishes nothing for the stated problem.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:36:05 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> @ Subject: Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive0 Message-ID: <11fi86e137l1h0f@corp.supernews.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > In article <42f7522c$1@news1.ethz.ch>, S <soterroatyahoodotcom> writes:  >  > E >>In my nice ideal world a software driver would be less privileged,  J >>supervised by a kernel mode manager taking care of the sensitive issues  >>(like that address shoving). >  > E > I would gather, then, that your ideal world is centered on painting F > the roses red.  There is still code which has provided an address toF > hardware, which has the ability to DMA to the address.  Renaming theH > code to be something else accomplishes nothing for the stated problem.  D I'm not one who writes device drivers for tape devices, and I'm not G attempting to second guess them.  I don't have the knowledge to do so.   With that out of the way.   H  From the perspective of an in-progress DMA transfer, it seems the main F concern is the section of memory in which the device may at some time F write some data.  One possible solution when it's desired to interupt @ the DMA transfer, such as for killing the process, or even just F returning control to the process, would be to designate the memory in H question as no longer belonging to the process, but be placed into some H type of 'unusable system memory' where the OS would wait for the device G timeout, transfer, or whatever, and release the memory and device when   and as appropriate.   G This is one thing in VMS that I've found bothersome in the past.  I do  = not use tape drives at this time, so I've not seen it lately.    --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 16:52:46 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) @ Subject: Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive3 Message-ID: <aKNl+bg7Ku27@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <11fi86e137l1h0f@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  J >  From the perspective of an in-progress DMA transfer, it seems the main H > concern is the section of memory in which the device may at some time H > write some data.  One possible solution when it's desired to interupt B > the DMA transfer, such as for killing the process, or even just H > returning control to the process, would be to designate the memory in J > question as no longer belonging to the process, but be placed into some J > type of 'unusable system memory' where the OS would wait for the device I > timeout, transfer, or whatever, and release the memory and device when   > and as appropriate.   D In most environments, process slots are no longer a scarce resource,B so using the process data structures to hold onto the memory seemsB a good solution.  The lack of extra special purpose code means the4 lack of addition sites for possible coding failures.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:30:26 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> @ Subject: Re: Killing a process that has allocated the tape drive0 Message-ID: <11fipe75d9e17b7@corp.supernews.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:\ > In article <11fi86e137l1h0f@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  > J >> From the perspective of an in-progress DMA transfer, it seems the main H >>concern is the section of memory in which the device may at some time H >>write some data.  One possible solution when it's desired to interupt B >>the DMA transfer, such as for killing the process, or even just H >>returning control to the process, would be to designate the memory in J >>question as no longer belonging to the process, but be placed into some J >>type of 'unusable system memory' where the OS would wait for the device I >>timeout, transfer, or whatever, and release the memory and device when   >>and as appropriate.  >  > F > In most environments, process slots are no longer a scarce resource,D > so using the process data structures to hold onto the memory seemsD > a good solution.  The lack of extra special purpose code means the6 > lack of addition sites for possible coding failures.  H But if that hung process is also holding onto your terminal session you F might become annoyed.  Yes, on a PC with a terminal emulator, you can 3 just start up another session.  Times have changed.   < As I prefaced the idea, I don't know what I'm talking about.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 14:26:47 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: lib$ tree routines 3 Message-ID: <yb7lqlVcOoUv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <1123508137.397460.23790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, filip.de.block@proximus.net writes: > good morning,  > H > I am a happy user of LIB$INSERT_TREE (and friends) for many years. ButF > until today, I had no reason for removing a single node from a tree.: > So I was slightly horrified to find out that there is no > LIB$REMOVE_TREE ...  > % > Anyone an idea about a workaround ?   , Write your own versions of all the routines.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 05 16:09:09 EDT ) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook)  Subject: Re: lib$ tree routines ! Message-ID: <sii1nz+ikbc5@wvnvms>   c In article <yb7lqlVcOoUv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: h > In article <1123508137.397460.23790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, filip.de.block@proximus.net writes: >> good morning, >>  I >> I am a happy user of LIB$INSERT_TREE (and friends) for many years. But G >> until today, I had no reason for removing a single node from a tree. ; >> So I was slightly horrified to find out that there is no  >> LIB$REMOVE_TREE ... >>  & >> Anyone an idea about a workaround ? > . > Write your own versions of all the routines.  H Easier said than done as I discovered when I had to add a delete routineC to the Balanced B-tree code in VMS Mosaic.  Missing one of the many J different boundary conditions resulted in several major bugs in VMS MosaicF 3.8.  Debugging B-tree delete code makes for a good Debugger refresher course.   H The VMS Mosaic distribution contains a set of Balanced B-tree C routines in [.LIBWWW2]HTBTREE.C.      George Cook  WVNET    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 16:49:43 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: lib$ tree routines 3 Message-ID: <dsA4wsPv+T+J@eisner.encompasserve.org>   M In article <sii1nz+ikbc5@wvnvms>, cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) writes: e > In article <yb7lqlVcOoUv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: i >> In article <1123508137.397460.23790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, filip.de.block@proximus.net writes:  >>> good morning,  >>> J >>> I am a happy user of LIB$INSERT_TREE (and friends) for many years. ButH >>> until today, I had no reason for removing a single node from a tree.< >>> So I was slightly horrified to find out that there is no >>> LIB$REMOVE_TREE ...  >>> ' >>> Anyone an idea about a workaround ?  >>  / >> Write your own versions of all the routines.  > J > Easier said than done as I discovered when I had to add a delete routineE > to the Balanced B-tree code in VMS Mosaic.  Missing one of the many L > different boundary conditions resulted in several major bugs in VMS MosaicH > 3.8.  Debugging B-tree delete code makes for a good Debugger refresher	 > course.   4 Or a higher level language (than whatever you used).   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 05 20:18:11 EDT ) From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook)  Subject: Re: lib$ tree routines ! Message-ID: <9CzQSPRp4Ur7@wvnvms>   h In article <574if1dj6tpofk1k74ct67dng4ej7ttdal@4ax.com>, John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> writes:N > On 9 Aug 2005 14:26:47 -0500, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > h >>In article <1123508137.397460.23790@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, filip.de.block@proximus.net writes: >>> good morning,  >>> J >>> I am a happy user of LIB$INSERT_TREE (and friends) for many years. ButH >>> until today, I had no reason for removing a single node from a tree.< >>> So I was slightly horrified to find out that there is no >>> LIB$REMOVE_TREE ...  >>> ' >>> Anyone an idea about a workaround ?  >>. >>Write your own versions of all the routines. > G > I think one of my colleagues did just that, and probably for the same 	 > reason.  > H > If the requirement is to be able to remove a node and more than likelyM > insert another in its place, there may be little option.  However, if fresh L > insertions with identical keys are not needed, and the OP doesn't mind theM > overhead of skipping "deleted" nodes, then a simple flag in each node would N > suffice - set the flag to mean "deleted" when so required, and simply ignore > on traversal.   J "Deleted" nodes break non-linear tree operations (at least without a greatH deal of jumping and dancing around which tends to defeat the whole pointD of using a Balanced B-tree (efficiency/speed)).  I found it was much  simpler to remove deleted nodes.     George Cook  WVNET    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:24:02 GMT & From: Lee Mah <lytmah@telusplanet.net>6 Subject: Looking for template software for VMS  system- Message-ID: <Ch8Ke.194114$tt5.60951@edtnps90>   . We currently have an application which creates1 reports on preprinted forms on an impact printer.   The printer is on its last legs.9 The application runs on all nodes of a VMS 7.3-2 cluster.   5 I'm looking for a product which will print the static 3 preprinted template and the variable information on 2 a single pass.  If such a product is available, my3 assumption is that the preprinted template would be  linked to queue.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:49:28 -0500 & From: Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com>: Subject: Re: Looking for template software for VMS  systemD Message-ID: <ef2aa$42f916e4$4367aba2$4552@msgid.meganewsservers.com>   Lee Mah wrote:  0 > We currently have an application which creates3 > reports on preprinted forms on an impact printer. " > The printer is on its last legs.; > The application runs on all nodes of a VMS 7.3-2 cluster.  > 7 > I'm looking for a product which will print the static 5 > preprinted template and the variable information on 4 > a single pass.  If such a product is available, my5 > assumption is that the preprinted template would be  > linked to queue.  H I believe that GrayMatter Software advertises a product that does this. =   I have never tried any forms software.  I use GrayMatter's  E Scriptserver product and like it.  Below is a link to their web site. " http://www.graysoft.com/index.html   --     Thomas Wirt  Systems Manager  Kittle's Home Furnishings  Indianapolis, IN   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:19:43 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.comC Subject: Re: Mark Hurd to be keynote speaker at HP Technology Forum Q Message-ID: <OFBB3DC7D5.594585D4-ON85257058.0064B04B-85257058.0064B0FE@metso.com>   F LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) wrote on 08/09/2005 02:35:42 AM:  5 > David J Dachtera (djesys.nospam@comcast.net) wrote:  > : I > : That'd put him head-and-shoulders above any other CEO in the country.  > :  > H > Maybe in the top 5, but the top CEO honor goes to Malden Mills' former > CEO, Aaron Feuerstein: >  > I http://sitesearch.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3963-2001Dec19.html 9 >    A CEO Who Lives by What's Right (washingtonpost.com)  >  >   "By Mary McGrory* >    Thursday, December 20, 2001; Page A03 > I >    In this anxious hour of pink-slip dread, it is restoring to think of B >    Aaron Feuerstein, a Massachusetts manufacturer who prizes his1 >    employees and risks profits on their behalf.  > C >    The CEO of Malden Mills, located in Lawrence, the 23rd poorest H >    community in the country, stepped clear of the greedy stereotype ofK >    his kind in 1995 when, just before Christmas, his factory burned down. F >    Rather than taking the insurance money and retiring or moving theK >    plant to some Third World country, he promptly announced that he would I >    rebuild. He gave bonuses to the help and paid them while they waited " >    for the factory reopening..." >   E Yes, but unfortunately, he eventually lost the company in bancruptcy.    >  > --Jerry Leslie; >   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 12:58:38 -0700 5 From: "Edward Alekxandr" <Edward.Alekxandr@gmail.com> - Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 CD's in the UK C Message-ID: <1123617518.811356.231640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    What can I say!   ? Thank you very much to the kind people that have helped me out.  I do very much appreciate it!   C Not sure if I'm the youngest hobbyist at 23 but it's really nice to ; have such a wide and helpful community for a great product.    Cheers   Edward.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:47:19 -0400- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> - Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 CD's in the UK 7 Message-ID: <8660a3a105080918472d829a42@mail.gmail.com>   . On 9 Aug 2005 12:58:38 -0700, Edward Alekxandr# <Edward.Alekxandr@gmail.com> wrote:  > What can I say!  >=20A > Thank you very much to the kind people that have helped me out.  > I do very much appreciate it!  >=20E > Not sure if I'm the youngest hobbyist at 23 but it's really nice to = > have such a wide and helpful community for a great product.  >=20 > Cheers >=20	 > Edward.  >=20 >=20  F You won't be if the computer center at the Gifted & Talented/AG Basics@ middle school my daughter's attending this fall accepts a DS10L.  H (Attempting to subvert the Redmond-centric mindset at an early age. . .)   WWWebb   --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 12:30:44 -0700 # From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> 4 Subject: Re: strange terminal-characteristic problemB Message-ID: <1123615843.975862.28160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: E > In article <1123598779.089893.316150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ' > "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> writes:  > G > > > I had disk + cable + VT + computer for both nodes.  I swapped the M > > > cables, swapped the VTs.  The problem remained with the "node".  I then L > > > replaced each computer with another one BUT OF SIMILAR HARDWARE  (i.e.J > > > VAXstation with VAXstation, VAX with VAX) and found that the problem" > > > stayed with the system disk. > > J > > Then, why are you looking anyplace other than the system disk???? Time? > > for you to get out a piece of paper and draw some pictures.  > > # > > VT1+Cable1+Box1+Disk1 = problem & > > VT2+Cable2+Box2+Disk2 = NO-problem# > > VT2+Cable2+Box2+Disk1 = problem  > > A > > Fill in any other pertinent components. Where is the problem?  > J >  VT2+Cable2+Box3+Disk1 = problem where Box3 is similar hardware to Box1. >   F But you still have Disk1 in the test. You can't eliminate Disk1 as the5 problem unless you can get a failure without it: i.e.   ?  if VT2+Cable2+Box(n)+Disk(!=1) = problem, then look elsewhere.   J > I'm pretty sure it's not the system disk, since they are essentially theG > same, and files like SYS$SYLOGIN are on a non-system disk used by all  > nodes.  ) "Essentially the same" means "different".   ; >  My current suspicion is that the hard-wired, or at least H > default, console settings for the VAXstation 4000 models are different > than for the VAX 4000 models.   E Then moving a terminal between the two boxes would require changes to  its setup. Did it?  A Make the problem go away with Disk1 in the test case, or make the D problem occur without it. I was serious about getting out a sheet ofF paper and drawing out a troubleshooting diagram. It certainly helps meD to get focused in the right direction when I hit one of those "brick walls".   C You are the only person who knows everything you've tried, and once B you've put it down on paper maybe you'll spot some patterns or seeB other things you should try. Also, having it written out helps you *not* repeat fruitless steps.    Only trying to help.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:42:22 -0400 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 4 Subject: Re: strange terminal-characteristic problem0 Message-ID: <11fi8ibkjlm9me9@corp.supernews.com>  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: E > In article <1123598779.089893.316150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, ( > "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> writes:  >  > D >>>I had disk + cable + VT + computer for both nodes.  I swapped theJ >>>cables, swapped the VTs.  The problem remained with the "node".  I thenI >>>replaced each computer with another one BUT OF SIMILAR HARDWARE  (i.e. G >>>VAXstation with VAXstation, VAX with VAX) and found that the problem  >>>stayed with the system disk.  >>H >>Then, why are you looking anyplace other than the system disk???? Time= >>for you to get out a piece of paper and draw some pictures.  >>! >>VT1+Cable1+Box1+Disk1 = problem $ >>VT2+Cable2+Box2+Disk2 = NO-problem! >>VT2+Cable2+Box2+Disk1 = problem  >>? >>Fill in any other pertinent components. Where is the problem?  >  > J >  VT2+Cable2+Box3+Disk1 = problem where Box3 is similar hardware to Box1. > J > I'm pretty sure it's not the system disk, since they are essentially theG > same, and files like SYS$SYLOGIN are on a non-system disk used by all B > nodes.  My current suspicion is that the hard-wired, or at leastI > default, console settings for the VAXstation 4000 models are different   > than for the VAX 4000 models.  >   , Your being 'pretty sure' doesn't make it so.  F Everything about what's been written about this problem appears to be % centered on one specific system disk.   B Take that disk and put it in another type of system, VAX 4000, or G whatever.  If the condition still exists, then it sure wouldn't be the   VAXstation 4000s.   G I'm running VAXstation 4000s, and while I don't use the consoles much,  < I've never had a problem when I do.  Models 60, 90, and 90A.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:24:45 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 4 Subject: Re: strange terminal-characteristic problem, Message-ID: <42F9575A.B10FD4D3@teksavvy.com>  	 QUESTION:   H MC SYSGEN SHOW/DEV reveals that OPA is handled by the "OPERATOR" driver.  J While for most drivers, you can do a DIR SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES: and find the1 relevant file, this is not the case for OPERATOR.   E How does one go about finding out in which file this driver resides ?    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:13:53 -0400- From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com>  Subject: Re: Vax/VMS Calculator 7 Message-ID: <8660a3a1050809111366259f34@mail.gmail.com>   E On 9 Aug 2005 17:03:54 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: 9 > In article <8660a3a105080817025874029d@mail.gmail.com>, 8 >        William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> writes:7 > > On 8 Aug 2005 15:45:56 -0700, contracer11@gmail.com " > > <contracer11@gmail.com> wrote:E > >> Please, can you tell me where could I get a graphical calculator ' > >> to download in my VAX and use it ?  > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > > VAX? > > Graphical? > > I'm confused.  >=20B > About what?  The only VAX I own that I have never run DECWindowsA > on was a MicroVAX-II,  Every other VAX I have ever had was more ? > than capable of being "Graphical".  Or did I miss your tongue $ > firmly embeded in your cheek?  :-) >=20 > bill >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolve= s F > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h> >=20  ( I guess I need to put in <SARCASM> tags.   WWWebb   --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 21:02:07 -0700  From: contracer11@gmail.com  Subject: Re: Vax/VMS Calculator C Message-ID: <1123646527.055149.302920@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   C Any years in the past I saw a graphical calculator running in a VAX  systems F (maybe made with DEC Forms). This calculator was running in a VAX 6420D with VT420 terminal. I'm looking for Reminder too (made with Cobol), but I  don't know where find it...    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 21:19:11 -0700  From: dooleys@snowy.net.au Subject: Re: Vax/VMS Calculator C Message-ID: <1123647551.758357.308030@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   G there used to be more than one on Languages & Tools sig tapes from over  10 years ago! I would search for L&T calculator  Phil   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Aug 2005 12:55:09 -0700 5 From: "Edward Alekxandr" <Edward.Alekxandr@gmail.com> H Subject: VAXstation 4000/90A's looking for a good home in Bristol UK....C Message-ID: <1123617309.039306.210450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   	 Dear All,   F I have a couple of VAXstation 4000 90A's looking for a home in Bristol UK. G If you want spec's then let me know, but from what I remember they have  64MB ram& and a few SCSI disks (a few GB worth).  E I also have a VRT17-HA monitor and a 24 port hub if anyone would like  it.   B As I don't drive you would have to be-able to pick them up, but if	 thats OK,  then they are all yours!   Cheers   Edward.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:10:07 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk> 3 Subject: Re: [REQ] OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 CD's in the UK = Message-ID: <jc7Ke.85506$G8.51605@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   L Indeed I am. I have a fair collection of stuff here too, and I'm always keen* to encourage the hobbyist programme along.  6 You'll find my contact details at the XDelta web site.   --     Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk E It's not mine, but I like this definition: Legacy = stuff that works.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.443 ************************