1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 01 Dec 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 668       Contents: Re: Article on RWMPBG Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? G Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail??? * Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie* Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ? ' Re: Help, I need a VMS Alpha 8.2 OS kit / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today / Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today @ Re: Info-ZIP UnZip 6.0c BETA now available.  Zip usage question.@ Re: Info-ZIP UnZip 6.0c BETA now available.  Zip usage question. Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?  Re: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?  Re: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?  Re: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ? , Re: Vaxstation 3100 1gig limit & MOP booting, Re: Vaxstation 3100 1gig limit & MOP booting Re: VMS web site bug Re: VMS web site bug0 Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.2] Crash in SYS$LAN_CSMACD, Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 22:26:33 +0100   From: Adrian <lajosch@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Article on RWMPB + Message-ID: <dm5b69$16au$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>    Thanks a lot!!!    Adrian   Alex Daniels wrote:  >  > Here you go. >  > Alex >    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 01:46:06 +0000 (UTC)7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???( Message-ID: <dmlkku$8h0$1@pcls4.std.com>  , sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes:  % >From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob@jfcl.com>   G >>   Is there any way to configure the TCP/IP services for OpenVMS SMTP F >> server to simply discard incoming mail addressed to to non-existentF >> users rather than returning a bounce to the original sender?  [...]  I >   I'm told that V5.5 fixes the leakers with the invalid names, but that , >doesn't do all you want done (or not done).  F TCPIP V5.5 does in fact do that.  I just tried it just to be sure, andG it rejects the rcpt to line with a 550 Addressee undeliverable message, F which is the correct action.  I would suggest moving to V5.5 if at allE possible, and if not, simply blocking all of China (or perhaps all of H the Far East) if you really don't have a reason to expect non-spam email from China.    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:50:20 -0600 (CST) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)P Subject: Re: Configuring OVMS TCPIP SMTP server to discard undeliverable mail???2 Message-ID: <05113019501996_2038971B@antinode.org>  7 From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)   I > >>   Is there any way to configure the TCP/IP services for OpenVMS SMTP H > >> server to simply discard incoming mail addressed to to non-existentH > >> users rather than returning a bounce to the original sender?  [...] > K > >   I'm told that V5.5 fixes the leakers with the invalid names, but that . > >doesn't do all you want done (or not done). > H > TCPIP V5.5 does in fact do that.  I just tried it just to be sure, andI > it rejects the rcpt to line with a 550 Addressee undeliverable message, H > which is the correct action.  I would suggest moving to V5.5 if at allG > possible, and if not, simply blocking all of China (or perhaps all of J > the Far East) if you really don't have a reason to expect non-spam email
 > from China.   F    TCPIP V5.5 demands VMS V8.2 which breaks AppleTalk.  I'm holding myD breath, waiting for the ECO (which I expect never to come) for V5.4.  G    My big problem is not e-mail from China (much of which is blocked by ? IP address), it's with bounce messages from everywhere, sent to H <fictional>@antinode.org because much of the junk e-mail advertising theF drug dealer Web site (which currently appears to be in China) does notC get delivered to its intended recipient, and it claims to come from H <fictional>@antinode.org.  Naturally, the junk e-mail itself is actuallyA sent from hijacked Windows systems, of which there seems to be no  shortage.  For example:    [... bounce message ...]8 Received: from mail04.as.customer.ne.jp (202.239.124.19)>          by alp.antinode.org (V5.4-15F, OpenVMS V7.3-2 Alpha);-         Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:32:58 -0600 (CST) # [... included original message ...] < Received: from unknown (HELO antinode.org) ([70.18.161.157]):           (envelope-sender <giacomoucrossno@antinode.org>)?           by mail.as.customer.ne.jp (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP >           for <aurea@baystars.net>; 29 Nov 2005 10:32:54 +09006 From: "Giacomo Crossno" <giacomoucrossno@antinode.org>( To: "Janeka Mcavoy" <aurea@baystars.net> [...]   E Note that 70.18.161.157 (pool-70-18-161-157.nwrk.east.verizon.net) is D not actually antinode.org.  (One could argue that the SMTP server in4 Japan could have been clever enough to notice this.)  E    As-is, the couple hundred long-name leakers per day are less of an F annoyance than the thousand per hour properly rejected bounce messages3 sent to shorter <fictional>@antinode.org addresses.   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Nov 2005 20:13:23 +01006 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie * Message-ID: <43861ee3@news.langstoeger.at>  p In article <1132857490.870477.63490@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "jfragemann" <jfragemann@hotmail.com> writes:E >I would like to try running a web server on OpenVMS. I have no prior 3 >experience with this interesting operating system.    Welcome to the club.   	http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/  E >I would like a decent alpha system for playing around with and learn C >more. I do not plan on using the system extensively for actual web H >hosting, but merely to learn how to run web servers and various modules2 >such as SSL and SSH authentication under OpenVMS.  H Start with a EV56 or better a EV6 (or else you have to forget JAVA, ...)L and don't take one with an unsupported (by VMS) disk or graphics controller.F I'd take a PWS600au or a DS10/XP900 or a XP1000 if you get them cheap.F And better use enough memory (512MB and up) or else the system crawls.  " 	http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/  C >Any suggestions? Also, it would be nice if the system could handle H >Mozilla as well, without too much sweat. I know this could be a problem >for the older versions.  + OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 w/ ECOs (UPDATE V1, ...) A DECNET_OSI V8.2 + ECO 1 (only if you have more than 1 VMS system)  DWMOTIF (CDE) V1.5 + ECO 1 TCPIP V5.5-11ECO 13 CSWB (Mozilla) V1.7-11 + GTK V1.2-10 + OPL V1.0-0A9 3 CSWS (Apache) V2.1 + CSWS_PERL V2.1 + CSWS_PHP V1.3  JAVA V1.4-24P2 PERL V5.8-6  SSL V1.2 and maybe also CSWS_JAVA (Tomcat) V3.0 
 DFU V3.1-1 MMOV V2.2-1 (AVI Player) for a start    --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 11:39:39 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 3 Subject: Re: Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie C Message-ID: <1133379579.799144.323050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:` > In article <dmko9l$1hm$1@newslocal.mitre.org>, klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) writes: > > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes in article <11opto6erv5fted@corp.supernews.com> dated Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:50:08 -0500: G > >>David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price. J > >>That would get you an EV6.  Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet  > >>on the motherboard, I think. > > P > > The DS10L has 2 ethernet ports, not sure if they're directly on the mobo butM > > they don't take up the 1 PCI slot.  So yes you can have both ethernet and 8 > > video, or ethernet and SCSI, but not SCSI and video. > E > Isn't there a one-slot PCI "combo card" to handle both (and a third 	 > item) ?   E There is a Video/SCSI combo card but it ain't cheap.  Island sells it  for $899. Others are much E more expensive.  I've not seen it on Ebay.  I believe there is also a  "3-way" video/scsi/ethernet ? card, but with 2 ports on the motherboard most users won't need  another.  BTW the video : on the combo card is a Elisa Gloria or equivalent I think.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 15:11:59 -0800( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com>$ Subject: Re: EXECSYMB on VMS V8.2+ ?C Message-ID: <1133392319.241070.252050@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F Made the time to install V8.2 Alpha on my trusty AS200 test box, alongG with all current category 1 patches.  I installed EXECSYMB by relinking F for now (I may try a recompile later if there's time).  EXECSYMB worksG with a queue using the COPYFILE example, so we're going to test it with = our more involved setups, but it looks like all should be OK.   ! Good code, it just keeps working.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:27:41 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 0 Subject: Re: Help, I need a VMS Alpha 8.2 OS kit( Message-ID: <ops02zofiizgicya@hyrrokkin>  L On 30 Nov 2005 12:00:09 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett <nothome@spammers.are.scum>   wrote:   > 0 >  The reason I ask is that I appear to be stuck- > in a Catch-22 hell on getting a copy of VMS * > 8.2 for Alpha. Up until last April I was. > subscribed to the service that delivered VAX4 > and Alpha Operating system binaries and separately/ > subscribed to the layered products for Alpha. . > Since I no longer have any VAXen I cancelled- > that service and switched to a service that ) > delivers Alpha VMS OS + Layered product  > binaries.  > ) >  Unfortunately it appears that for some + > unfathomable reason the VMS Alpha 8.2 kit , > was shipped in the new product offering in- > March but not until June in the old product + > offering. Since I changed product numbers , > in April I didn't get VMS 8.2 under either- > the old part number or the new part number.  > . >  Now one would think that would be simple to0 > solve, just call HP and explain the situation./ > Since I was continuously paying for the right / > to have a copy of VMS 8.2 shipped to me there / > should be no problem with them just doing so. + > Apparently it doesn't work that way, I've 3 > spent a couple of months trying to get an answer. - > HP acknowledges my analysis of the reason I ) > didn't get a kit but appears to have no ' > interest in correcting the situation.  > / >  I have a subscription to the ConDist kit for - > Alpha ( OS and Layered products ). They now , > have an option to download software from a1 > website. I looked there but it appears that all 1 > that is there is the is the contents of the SPL 1 > (layered products) not the OS. Is there a place  > to download the VMS OS kits? > 3 >  If the kit isn't available for download anywhere 1 > is there anyone out there who has a VMS 8.2 for . > Alpha kit they'd be willing to give, sell or, > loan me? If I could borrow a kit I'll burn. > my own CDs from it ( as far as I'm concerned+ > I've paid HP for the right to have a copy / > of this kit and if that's the only way to get  > one then so be it ). > 4 Well, maybe someone from HP will read this and solve8 your problem; however, they may have a hard time sending
 you email.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:20:21 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438E4FD5.E6617599@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > AEF wrote: > > >  > > > AEF wrote: > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > AEF wrote: > > > > > > # > > > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > > > AEF wrote:
 > > > > [...] R > > > > > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theN > > > > > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them". > > > > > > S > > > > > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. O > > > > > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal Q > > > > > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien O > > > > > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an S > > > > > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens ( > > > > > > won't report crimes anymore.	 > > > > > L > > > > > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theP > > > > > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dopeG > > > > > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope? 	 > > > > > 5 > > > > > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) E > > > > > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime. 	 > > > > > L > > > > > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aQ > > > > > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less N > > > > > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justP > > > > > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their > > > > > own. > > > > N > > > > So you prefer rapists in the streets to illegal aliens doing jobs that7 > > > > Americans wouldn't do. That's your prerogative.  > > > I > > > Actually, on 2nd thought, it's worse than that. You'd simply end up J > > > with the same number of aliens, minus the first one who reported theM > > > crime, and more could-have-been-reported rapists on the loose. I really . > > > don't see how that  is a better outcome. > >  > > No one said it was.  > > K > > However, immigration enforcement does not stop just because one illegal % > > reports a rape and gets deported.  > D > I didn't say that it did. But my way you have one more illegal butG > fewer rapists. Your way you have the same number of illegals but more  > rapists on the loose.    Well, yes and no.   D If Manuel rapes Juanita, Juanita reports it and get discovered as an& illegal, does Manuel get away with it?  E On the other hand, if Manuel rapes Juanita, Juanita doesn't report it F but tells her own family, what do you think Jose and Carlos will do to Manuel next time they meet?    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:32:57 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438E52C9.F0064F6C@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote: 
 > > [snip]K > > I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.  > C > But my way you'd have nearly the same number of aliens, but fewer  > rapists on the loose.   G So, illegals who sap our resources, take our jobs, demand services from 2 school systems they do not fund, demand bi-lingual= this-that-and-the-other-thing, ... are preferable to rapists?   I > I'm not saying there should be no enforcement of immigration laws. Just , > that some ways may do more harm than good.  9 Operative keyword there: *MAY*, not likely or guaranteed.    > > ' > > > to illegal aliens doing jobs that  > > > Americans wouldn't do. > > I > > That's baloney. For illegals - either illiterate or not conversant in F > > the dominant language (English), the less-"desirable" jobs are theK > > mostthey can hope for in many cases. Americans will do those same jobs, H > > though perhaps not in such great numbers and not as willingly (sinceA > > it's not "cool" and does not promote "affluence" as quickly).  >  > Well, this is controversial. >  > > I > > It may be interesting to note that in some places youngsters entering B > > the work force are seeking out the very trade unions that someL > > participants of this thread eschew, and for some surprising reasons: jobH > > security (in so far as that remains possible), mobility (the skilledL > > trades can work anywhere in the U.S.), steady work (the housing boom mayJ > > be slowing in some places, but building continues if one is is willingJ > > to go where the work is). According to the article I was reading, someI > > youths even commented that they wanted to do something more rewarding H > > than "shuffling papers or playing point-and-click all day". (..and I- > > thought I came up with that...! Far out!)  > >  > > > That's your prerogative. > > G > > Indeed. I choose to accept the forseen (no "un") but less desirable D > > consequences. If you want to eat scrambled, ya gotta break eggs. > ( > What do eggs have to do with anything?  - http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?analogy    > >  > > > > > A similar Q > > > > > situation exists for aliens enrolling their children in school. Suppose P > > > > > when they enroll they are found out and deported. The consequence willL > > > > > be that aliens won't enroll their children in school. Now you haveH > > > > > innocent children out on the street, not getting an education. > > > > J > > > > Ever heard of a "truant officer", BTW? They're gonna be found out, > > > > anyway.  > > >  > > > Some of them.  > > E > > Again, it's not a perfect world. You been hangin' out with "Z" or  > > something? > C > Well, I got this idea from Ed Koch who was mayor of NYC for three H > years. He said it on his radio show. Maybe he's wrong, but having been> > mayor for 12 yrs. he probably knows what he's talking about.  E No guarantees. He likely has a strong opinion, and his experience and E social stature grant him a certain degree of credibility, but without 3 solid research it still not much more than opinion.    > >  > > > >  > > > > > SoundsN > > > > > like a good way to breed criminals. Are these consequences we reallyJ > > > > > want? What about our principle, which seemed so "okay" at first? > > > > O > > > > Still seems o.k. Like any other situation, however, you gotta deal with O > > > > the fallout. Can't have petrol-fueled vehicles without pollution. Can't O > > > > enjoy a comfortable life without securing some form of cash flow. Can't N > > > > enjoy the fireplace without either cleaning up the ashes or paying theL > > > > gas bill. Can't rid the world of tyranny without some innocent lives > > > > being lost.  > > > M > > > But you just don't complacently accept the pollution. You take measures  > > > to reduce it. Etc. > > L > > ...but I don't let it run - or ruin - my life. If I can reduce it, fine.H > > Until someone comes up with an alternative to batteries and internal' > > combustion engines, ... guess what?  > H > You're flying off the handle. I'm just taking your example and showingB > how sticking to a principle results in more pollution than doing > something abou tit.    See the previous analogy.    > > J > > > Look what happened to Calif. when they went by "principles" with theK > > > electricity crisis when they wouldn't let utilities pass the costs to  > > > their customers. > > 6 > > Oopsie! Looks like you were taken in by the media. > > J > > Read up on the Enron debacle to learn to the true source of CA's power
 > > problems.  > @ > I didn't mean that that caused the whole problem. But it was aD > principle that led to that regulation that only made things worse.  G Well, no, not really. It can be summed up this way: price manipulation.    > > ! > > > > It's not a perfect world.  > > > > O > > > > > So I ask, in an admittedly "twisted" version of your saw: do the ends  > > > > > justify the means?!  > > > >  > > > > Yes and no.  > > > > M > > > > Yes, there is the possibility of unwanted fallout, rather the same as L > > > > banning corporal punishment (children grow up believing they can getB > > > > away with anything at the expense of a little "time out"). > > > > / > > > > No, illegal aliens cannot be tolerated.  > > >  > > > So you prefer rapists? > > K > > I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.  > C > But my way you'd have fewer rapists and nearly the same number of 
 > "illegals".    Maybe.   > >  > > > > ' > > > > > Be careful what you wish for.  > > > > A > > > > You take the good with the bad. It's not a perfect world.  > > > > A > > > > Unless you stand for something, you'll fall for anything.  > > > K > > > I stand for not blindly following any principle without regard to its / > > > consequences. We endure the consequences.  > > J > > ...but we do not need to rehash what has already been thought through.J > > Even the proponents of prohibition knew there would be a backlash. TheK > > "war on drugs" still probably breeds more users than it prevents, yet I G > > doubt anyone views legalization of such addictive intoxicants as an  > > acceptable alternative.  > H > You just made a good case for ending the war on drugs. Not all illegal > drugs are addictive   = ..., though most are (which is why they're "controlled"), ...   ! > and at least one legal drug is.   E ...; however, it is the physical and social addiction that drives the E crime associated with illegal drugs. Legal dispensing of useful drugs @ limits the danger of addiction, though it does sometimes happen.   > > I > > As Bill Murray's character said in "Groundhog Day", "You make choices  > > and you live with them!"   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:14:36 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438E5C8C.5755A7D6@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > AEF wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > AEF wrote: > > > >  > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > Lurker wrote:  > > > > > > ; > > > > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message H > > > > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > > > >  > > > > > > ... 
 > > > > [...]  > [...]  > >  > 1 > Sorry to have to correct myself, but here goes:  > K > > I don't know but your dodging the issue. First of all, the union should  >  > make that shouldn't. > G > > get a 33% raise and they certainly shouldn't be threatening to shut K > > down the city to get it, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VERY SAME LAW THAT ALLOWS 6 > > THEM TO HAVE A UNION FORBIDS THEM FROM STRIKING!!! > > G > > > I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an L > > > obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's > > > fairness for you." > > H > > You're dodging the issue. In fact, the article said that half of theF > > surplus was going to the pensions. So now it's only half a billion > > dollars. > H > Not only that, the almost half the suprlus, this $450 million is goingC > to the workers (their pensions)! They're already getting half the * > surplus and somehow that's not enough!!! >  > Give me a f***ing break.!   F No, I won't, because that's money that should have been paid into thatC fund the past, and - I suspect - doesn't quite fill the entire gap.   2 F*** me and f*** you, give *THEM* a f***ing break!   > [...]  > H > Ya know, I even admit that there may be or at least may have been someD > good from the unions, but you seem to be claiming that nothing the) > union does or could do is unreasonable.   G Never said that. I just have to keep countering the "not perfect, so no 6 good at all" attitude I keep getting in these threads.   > How about if they resort to I > suicide bombing? Would that be enough to make you think they're abusing F > their power? They're already threatening the break the very law thatE > allows them to be and still you don't see anything wrong with that.   G The law itself is illegal and unconstitutional, IMO. My opinion matters   for spit, however, in this case.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:09:24 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today+ Message-ID: <438E5B53.15EC81EC@comcast.net>   
 AEF wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > AEF wrote: > > >  > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > Lurker wrote: 	 > > > > > 9 > > > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message F > > > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...	 > > > > > 
 > > > > > ...  > > > [...] Q > > > > > > 2. Unions are good/bad for workers, getting them a better/worse deal. E > > > > > > This includes wages and benefits, and working conditions.  > > > > > > K > > > > > > One thing I noticed from some is a pure "every man for himself" N > > > > > > attitude. They argue that unions should not be allowed to lock out7 > > > > > > non-union workers willing to work for less. 	 > > > > > 0 > > > > > Why should they be allowed to do that? > > > >  > > > > Fairness.  > > > K > > > Well. It could well be that unions have done some good. Obviously not M > > > for our Bill G. and Lurker, but maybe for you and some others. But here F > > > in NYC all I see is that they abuse their power. Tell me how the, > > > following article from AMny is "fair": > > > + > > > Transit Union Says It Won't Back Down  > > > I > > > With its contract due to expire in less than three weeks, the union I > > > representing transit workers continued to call on the MTA [New York J > > > City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority who is in charge of twoK > > > RR's, the subway and buses, and NYC bridges] yesterday to use some of 6 > > > its $1 billion budget surplus to raise salaries. > > > G > > > "We have the power, and we're putting the pressure on," said John L > > > Mooney, a vice president of the Transport Workers Union Local 100, whoM > > > was among dozens of workers who gathered for a rally yesterday in Union B > > > Square. ["We have the power." Now there's fairness for you.] > > J > > The transit agency has a $1 billion surplus. "Now there's fairness for	 > > you."  > I > It's a fluke. No, the MTA aren't angels. But I'm not aware of any gov't   > or agency surplus living long.   Gee - I wonder why THAT is? :-)   ) > The MTA and New York state are BILLIONS C > in debt. So it's not really a surplus. And why should the transit I > workers get a 33% raise from that anyway? If they STOLE the $1 billion,  > that would be unfair.  >  > > > [snip]I > > > OK, yes, there is a big surplus due to real estate taxes. But it is D > > > temporary and the MTA has a LOT of debt to pay down: billions. > > ' > > Why have those debts not been paid?  > * > I don't know but your dodging the issue.  - Nope. Fiscal responsibility *IS* _THE_ issue!     > First of all, the union shouldE > get a 33% raise and they certainly shouldn't be threatening to shut I > down the city to get it, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VERY SAME LAW THAT ALLOWS 4 > THEM TO HAVE A UNION FORBIDS THEM FROM STRIKING!!! > E > > I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an J > > obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's > > fairness for you." >  > You're dodging the issue.    Nope.   , > In fact, the article said that half of theD > surplus was going to the pensions. So now it's only half a billion
 > dollars. >  > >  > > > New YorkM > > > state has one of the highest debt/capitas in the U.S. So please tell me M > > > how a demand for a net 33% increase in wages and threatening an illegal K > > > strike is "fair". How is it fair for 30,000 workers to hold a city of  > > > millions hostage?  > > F > > Non sequitur. No government or other agency is required to provideH > > transit, public or otherwise. Use of mass transit is a choice, not a > > requirement. > 0 > What? this justifies holding the city hostage?  A Is cutting through a phone line with a back-hoe "holding the city = hostage"? (People survived for centuries without telephones.)   C Is breaking a gas or water main "holding the city hostage"? (People ; survived for centuries without piped gas or running water.)   A Electrical blackouts? (People survived for centuries without it.)   D You're pinning your fortunes on elements you cannot control. Workers; take job actions, utilities get cut off, and life goes on.      Life is challenge. Deal with it.   > this is not a E > non-sequiter at all. It is at the very heart of the issue. It's not H > like these union workers are being paid slave wages. And it's not likeF > the union will go back to current wages when the surplus evaporates. >  > > : > > > Hopefully, the Taylor law will be strictly enforced.K > > > And of this surplus, why shouldn't the riders get a 33% discount? And K > > > the surplus is temporary. When it goes away, and we all know it will, J > > > will the unions calmly accept wage decreases back to the pre-surplus > > > levels? Hmmmmmm? > > G > > Question: If the surplus is sourced by property taxes, what form of @ > > abatement will cause the source of that surplus to "dry up"? > H > I think it's from sales taxes of housing sales. The real estate bubbleH > will burst and dry it up. We can't keep selling housing at ever-risingH > prices to each other forever! In fact there are already signs that the' > housing market is starting to go bad.   A It may "dry up", but it will likely be a measured and predictable E decline. All employers take action in the face of revenue challenges. ( The transit agency will be no different.   > > I > > > And why does the stupid contract end in Dec.? If there is a strike, K > > > I'll have to walk at least 3 miles through traffic-clogged streets in J > > > whatever weather there is and over the Brooklyn Bridge (which is, ofK > > > course, exposed to the full force of the cold winds and precip). Yes, < > > > that will be fun. And I'll be one of the lucky ones!!! > > C > > By the way: it is not unusual for mass transit to operate under K > > deficits. Read up on the Chicago area's Metra and Pace agencies, not to L > > mention Amtrak and the major airlines that have been in the news so much > > lately.  >  > Has nothing to do with this.  < Well, actually yes it does, or I wouldn't have mentioned it.   > > M > > > Even if you believe unions are a good thing, you can have too much of a L > > > "good thing". They abuse their power. I have seen it with my own eyes. > > L > > Depends. You view it as abuse. They view it as a last resort. Obviously,L > > negotiating isn't working. Why? Question: since the union cannot legallyJ > > call a strike, what is the transit agency's motivation to negotiate in1 > > good faith? ("Now there's fairness for you.")  > ? > Last resort for what? For getting outlandish, undeserved wage  > increases?  F Quantify "outlandish" and "undeserved". Remember to to factor in theirG wage history and the public's opinion of their performance for the last  five years or so.   + > I don't really care what they view it as.   4 Then you can't really have a valid opinion, can you?   > Criminals view" > themselves as innocent. So what?  D If I were you, I'd be careful next time you board public transit now: that you've classified the transit workers as "criminals".   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 18:48:10 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133405290.880562.299850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > AEF wrote: > > > >  > > > > AEF wrote:! > > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > > AEF wrote:
 > > > > > > > % > > > > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > > > > AEF wrote: > > > > > [...] T > > > > > > > > One of the guiding tenets I live by is that "principles are like theP > > > > > > > > stars: we set our course by them, but rarely do we attain them".
 > > > > > > > U > > > > > > > What I meant was something like the following: Consider illegal aliens. Q > > > > > > > One may have the priniciple that they should be caught by any legal S > > > > > > > means and shipped out. But what of the consequences? What if an alien Q > > > > > > > reports a rape, but in doing so is found out by the police to be an U > > > > > > > alien? The alien is deported. Well, word will spread quickly and aliens * > > > > > > > won't report crimes anymore. > > > > > > N > > > > > > Let's try looking at that from the other direction: Except for theR > > > > > > exceptionally stupid ones, do dope-heads call the cops when their dopeI > > > > > > gets lifted? Why not? Does that stop anyone from buying dope?  > > > > > > 7 > > > > > > > So the next similar rape (or other crime) G > > > > > > > goes unreported and this means more rapes and more crime.  > > > > > > N > > > > > > Depends. I'm sure street gangs don't inform law enforcement when aS > > > > > > "crime" is commited against one of theirs, yet the results will be less P > > > > > > than desirable for the perpetrator(s). I'm not promoting gangs, justR > > > > > > illustrating that even undesirable elements tend to take care of their > > > > > > own.	 > > > > > P > > > > > So you prefer rapists in the streets to illegal aliens doing jobs that9 > > > > > Americans wouldn't do. That's your prerogative.  > > > > K > > > > Actually, on 2nd thought, it's worse than that. You'd simply end up L > > > > with the same number of aliens, minus the first one who reported theO > > > > crime, and more could-have-been-reported rapists on the loose. I really 0 > > > > don't see how that  is a better outcome. > > >  > > > No one said it was.  > > > M > > > However, immigration enforcement does not stop just because one illegal ' > > > reports a rape and gets deported.  > > F > > I didn't say that it did. But my way you have one more illegal butI > > fewer rapists. Your way you have the same number of illegals but more  > > rapists on the loose.  >  > Well, yes and no.  > F > If Manuel rapes Juanita, Juanita reports it and get discovered as an( > illegal, does Manuel get away with it? > G > On the other hand, if Manuel rapes Juanita, Juanita doesn't report it H > but tells her own family, what do you think Jose and Carlos will do to > Manuel next time they meet?   E If this were average or typical, you'd have a point. I don't know for A certain, but I think the majority of rapes are done by strangers.   G Besides, I don't know these people. If Manuel knew he was going to come E across Jose and Carlos, I don't think he would have done the crime in  the first place.   >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 19:07:59 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133406479.494793.157800@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > [snip]M > > > I prefer law enforcement which tolerates neither rapists near illegals.  > > E > > But my way you'd have nearly the same number of aliens, but fewer  > > rapists on the loose.  > I > So, illegals who sap our resources, take our jobs, demand services from 4 > school systems they do not fund, demand bi-lingual? > this-that-and-the-other-thing, ... are preferable to rapists?   B Yes. Would you rather be out a few bucks, or have your wife raped?  E BTW, I am against bilinguial education for anyone. It is a farce that E only handicaps those whom it purports to help. The best time for kids A to learn a new language is when they are young. The same goes for ! music. That's just the way it is.   D I have no objection to enforcing immigration laws. I am just against@ methods of enforcement that cause more problems than they solve.   >  [...] I > > > Indeed. I choose to accept the forseen (no "un") but less desirable F > > > consequences. If you want to eat scrambled, ya gotta break eggs. > > * > > What do eggs have to do with anything? > / > http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?analogy   + http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?false / http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?confusing ) http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?huh    [...] L > > > > Look what happened to Calif. when they went by "principles" with theM > > > > electricity crisis when they wouldn't let utilities pass the costs to  > > > > their customers. > > > 8 > > > Oopsie! Looks like you were taken in by the media. > > > L > > > Read up on the Enron debacle to learn to the true source of CA's power > > > problems.  > > B > > I didn't mean that that caused the whole problem. But it was aF > > principle that led to that regulation that only made things worse. > I > Well, no, not really. It can be summed up this way: price manipulation.   B Yes, the cause was the Enron crowd but the Calif. legislators wereE fools. Being a fool doesn't excuse the crime, but being a fool is not  the way to earn votes.   [...]   L > > > ...but we do not need to rehash what has already been thought through.L > > > Even the proponents of prohibition knew there would be a backlash. TheM > > > "war on drugs" still probably breeds more users than it prevents, yet I I > > > doubt anyone views legalization of such addictive intoxicants as an  > > > acceptable alternative.  > > J > > You just made a good case for ending the war on drugs. Not all illegal > > drugs are addictive  > ? > ..., though most are (which is why they're "controlled"), ...  > # > > and at least one legal drug is.  > G > ...; however, it is the physical and social addiction that drives the G > crime associated with illegal drugs. Legal dispensing of useful drugs B > limits the danger of addiction, though it does sometimes happen.  E The crime from illegal drugs stems mostly from the fact that they are = illegal. This forces the price way up which attracts the most C unscrupulous people to deal. Also, drug dealers cannot settle their A differences in court the way legal businessmen do, and so have to G resort to violence. If currently illegal, strongly addictive drugs were G cheap, addicts wouldn't have to mug people to support their habit. Have D cigaratte pushers ever shot anyone? Have cigarette users ever mugged anyone?   G And why is alcohol the other exception? How is it that society has with E unquestionable vision, unassailiable logic, and unfailing, infallible ? "wisdom" somehow decided that tobacco and alocohol are the only E recreational drugs that should be legal? Questioning whether even one G drug brings shrieks and hollors from the anti-drug crowd: It's illegal! E It's the gateway to hell!!! yeah. I also hear the DEA is sometimes so A fanatical that they deny sufficient doses of painkilling drugs to A terminal patients because they might get addicted. They're dying!  What's the problem?!  E Another way the illegality of drugs makes the situation worse is that B their is no oversight or regulation: the drugs may be contaminatedF (willfully or otherwise) or of unpredictable strength, thereby causing) additional health problems and overdoses.   % Some illegal drugs are not addictive.   D I'm not saying we should just let them be sold like everything else,B but the current draconian punitive measures are counterproductive.   [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:27:19 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march today, Message-ID: <438E6D7F.52C9B185@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:G > If this were average or typical, you'd have a point. I don't know for C > certain, but I think the majority of rapes are done by strangers.   H Nop. The overwhelming majority of rapes are done by people who are known to the victim.  S Think of husband raping wife, think of drunken students raping drunken girlfriends.    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 19:32:59 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133407979.850390.119020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > AEF wrote: > > > >  > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > Lurker wrote:  > > > > > > ; > > > > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message H > > > > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > > > >  > > > > > > ... 
 > > > > [...] S > > > > > > > 2. Unions are good/bad for workers, getting them a better/worse deal. G > > > > > > > This includes wages and benefits, and working conditions. 
 > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > One thing I noticed from some is a pure "every man for himself" P > > > > > > > attitude. They argue that unions should not be allowed to lock out9 > > > > > > > non-union workers willing to work for less.  > > > > > > 2 > > > > > > Why should they be allowed to do that?	 > > > > >  > > > > > Fairness.  > > > > M > > > > Well. It could well be that unions have done some good. Obviously not O > > > > for our Bill G. and Lurker, but maybe for you and some others. But here H > > > > in NYC all I see is that they abuse their power. Tell me how the. > > > > following article from AMny is "fair": > > > > - > > > > Transit Union Says It Won't Back Down  > > > > K > > > > With its contract due to expire in less than three weeks, the union K > > > > representing transit workers continued to call on the MTA [New York L > > > > City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority who is in charge of twoM > > > > RR's, the subway and buses, and NYC bridges] yesterday to use some of 8 > > > > its $1 billion budget surplus to raise salaries. > > > > I > > > > "We have the power, and we're putting the pressure on," said John N > > > > Mooney, a vice president of the Transport Workers Union Local 100, whoO > > > > was among dozens of workers who gathered for a rally yesterday in Union D > > > > Square. ["We have the power." Now there's fairness for you.] > > > L > > > The transit agency has a $1 billion surplus. "Now there's fairness for > > > you."  > > K > > It's a fluke. No, the MTA aren't angels. But I'm not aware of any gov't " > > or agency surplus living long. > ! > Gee - I wonder why THAT is? :-)  > + > > The MTA and New York state are BILLIONS E > > in debt. So it's not really a surplus. And why should the transit K > > workers get a 33% raise from that anyway? If they STOLE the $1 billion,  > > that would be unfair.  > >  > > > > [snip]K > > > > OK, yes, there is a big surplus due to real estate taxes. But it is F > > > > temporary and the MTA has a LOT of debt to pay down: billions. > > > ) > > > Why have those debts not been paid?  > > , > > I don't know but your dodging the issue. > / > Nope. Fiscal responsibility *IS* _THE_ issue!   E So something good happens to help the situation and instead of paying A down the debts you think the workers should get it all. The gov't D either by being clever, or more likely by blind luck, has managed toG get more money for the MTA to pay its debts. And you want them to throw : that away to overpay the workers. How is THAT responsible?  F At what point do the workers have enough and future "surpluses" can beD use to pay down the debt? Is 100K/yr enough for a bus driver? $200K?/ Would you find a million a year reasonable pay?    > " > > First of all, the union shouldG > > get a 33% raise and they certainly shouldn't be threatening to shut K > > down the city to get it, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VERY SAME LAW THAT ALLOWS 6 > > THEM TO HAVE A UNION FORBIDS THEM FROM STRIKING!!! > > G > > > I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an L > > > obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's > > > fairness for you." > >  > > You're dodging the issue.  >  > Nope.   F They are not shirking the pension issue. In fact, the MTA said it willE use almost half of the "surplus" for the pensions. Giving the workers B 33% increase will make all the debts even worse, meaning even moreD wasted money to pay down interest, which will cause a calamity laterB on. Sooner or later, the riders and taxpayers are going to have toE cough up additional money because of the additional interest on debt. + The workers are trying to screw the public.   A Actually, by giving a 33% raise, THAT is shirking the issue. That ) doesn't help their pension find one iota.   . > > In fact, the article said that half of theF > > surplus was going to the pensions. So now it's only half a billion > > dollars. > >  > > >  > > > > New YorkO > > > > state has one of the highest debt/capitas in the U.S. So please tell me O > > > > how a demand for a net 33% increase in wages and threatening an illegal M > > > > strike is "fair". How is it fair for 30,000 workers to hold a city of  > > > > millions hostage?  > > > H > > > Non sequitur. No government or other agency is required to provideJ > > > transit, public or otherwise. Use of mass transit is a choice, not a > > > requirement. > > 2 > > What? this justifies holding the city hostage? > C > Is cutting through a phone line with a back-hoe "holding the city ? > hostage"? (People survived for centuries without telephones.)  > E > Is breaking a gas or water main "holding the city hostage"? (People = > survived for centuries without piped gas or running water.)  > C > Electrical blackouts? (People survived for centuries without it.)   > I'll tell you what. Let's have you refrain from using any cityC utilities for the rest of your life. Hey, people survived centuries A without them! Let's see how you fair. And that includes no VMS!!!   F Hello... we have become dependent on them. Hospitals need them to saveG lives. Yes, people lived without them, but that's not a valid argument.     F > You're pinning your fortunes on elements you cannot control. Workers< > take job actions, utilities get cut off, and life goes on. > " > Life is challenge. Deal with it.  D So because of that it's okay for workers to abuse their union power?  Are you just pushing my buttons?  F Fine. I'll do whatever I can in my power to stop this nonsense and letE THEM deal with it. Hey, you justify their actions. Why don't you tell G THEM that life is a challenge and to deal with it? Everyone should give E their paychecks to union members! Hurray! Let's make them filthy rich F and the rest of us dirt poor. And let them strike again to make things even worse! hah.     >  > > this is not a G > > non-sequiter at all. It is at the very heart of the issue. It's not J > > like these union workers are being paid slave wages. And it's not likeH > > the union will go back to current wages when the surplus evaporates. > >  > > > < > > > > Hopefully, the Taylor law will be strictly enforced.M > > > > And of this surplus, why shouldn't the riders get a 33% discount? And M > > > > the surplus is temporary. When it goes away, and we all know it will, L > > > > will the unions calmly accept wage decreases back to the pre-surplus > > > > levels? Hmmmmmm? > > > I > > > Question: If the surplus is sourced by property taxes, what form of B > > > abatement will cause the source of that surplus to "dry up"? > > J > > I think it's from sales taxes of housing sales. The real estate bubbleJ > > will burst and dry it up. We can't keep selling housing at ever-risingJ > > prices to each other forever! In fact there are already signs that the) > > housing market is starting to go bad.  > C > It may "dry up", but it will likely be a measured and predictable G > decline. All employers take action in the face of revenue challenges. * > The transit agency will be no different.  G Half of it *already* is gone, going to said workers' pensions, no less. C Wow, that was fast, no? Half is gone as soon as we got the surplus. E That's pretty good time, no? Yes, that's measureable and predictable. 7 It'll all be gone before you can say "unlawful strike".    >  > > > K > > > > And why does the stupid contract end in Dec.? If there is a strike, M > > > > I'll have to walk at least 3 miles through traffic-clogged streets in L > > > > whatever weather there is and over the Brooklyn Bridge (which is, ofM > > > > course, exposed to the full force of the cold winds and precip). Yes, > > > > > that will be fun. And I'll be one of the lucky ones!!! > > > E > > > By the way: it is not unusual for mass transit to operate under M > > > deficits. Read up on the Chicago area's Metra and Pace agencies, not to N > > > mention Amtrak and the major airlines that have been in the news so much
 > > > lately.  > >   > > Has nothing to do with this. > > > Well, actually yes it does, or I wouldn't have mentioned it.  E does not. does too. does not. does too. does not. duck season! rabbit  season! duck season, fire!  O > > > > Even if you believe unions are a good thing, you can have too much of a N > > > > "good thing". They abuse their power. I have seen it with my own eyes. > > > N > > > Depends. You view it as abuse. They view it as a last resort. Obviously,N > > > negotiating isn't working. Why? Question: since the union cannot legallyL > > > call a strike, what is the transit agency's motivation to negotiate in3 > > > good faith? ("Now there's fairness for you.")  > > A > > Last resort for what? For getting outlandish, undeserved wage  > > increases? > H > Quantify "outlandish" and "undeserved". Remember to to factor in theirI > wage history and the public's opinion of their performance for the last  > five years or so.   G They don't deserve a 33% raise, factoring all that in. And the ones who : drive the trains as if they had epillepsy should be fired.   > - > > I don't really care what they view it as.  > 6 > Then you can't really have a valid opinion, can you?   What?    >  > > Criminals view$ > > themselves as innocent. So what? > F > If I were you, I'd be careful next time you board public transit now< > that you've classified the transit workers as "criminals".   Hey, that was an analogy! :-)   G But if they break the law by going on strike, that makes them criminals   and subject to very heavy fines.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 19:37:16 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>8 Subject: Re: HP : Massive strike and protest march todayC Message-ID: <1133408236.334907.144670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > AEF wrote: > >  > > AEF wrote: > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > AEF wrote:	 > > > > > ! > > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > > > > > Lurker wrote: 
 > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message J > > > > > > > news:1132844010.172444.16400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
 > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > ...  > > > > > [...] 	 > > [...]  > > >  > > 3 > > Sorry to have to correct myself, but here goes:  > > M > > > I don't know but your dodging the issue. First of all, the union should  > >  > > make that shouldn't. > > I > > > get a 33% raise and they certainly shouldn't be threatening to shut M > > > down the city to get it, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE VERY SAME LAW THAT ALLOWS 8 > > > THEM TO HAVE A UNION FORBIDS THEM FROM STRIKING!!! > > > I > > > > I keep reading about pensions and such in arrears, which *ARE* an N > > > > obligation that employers somehow feel entitled to shirk. "Now there's > > > > fairness for you." > > > J > > > You're dodging the issue. In fact, the article said that half of theH > > > surplus was going to the pensions. So now it's only half a billion > > > dollars. > > J > > Not only that, the almost half the suprlus, this $450 million is goingE > > to the workers (their pensions)! They're already getting half the , > > surplus and somehow that's not enough!!! > >  > > Give me a f***ing break.!  > H > No, I won't, because that's money that should have been paid into thatE > fund the past, and - I suspect - doesn't quite fill the entire gap.   4 Well, how does a 33% raise fill the gap? It doesn't.  4 > F*** me and f*** you, give *THEM* a f***ing break!  F They don't deserve a 33% raise for any reason. And a temporary surplusA is certainly no reason to give anyone a raise when there is a far G larger amount of debt that has to be paid. And even if they did deserve ? a raise, not everyone who deserves a raise gets one. Police and G firefighters should probably get raises before them anyway. If any city & workers are being underpaid it's them.  = And why should union workers fare better than the rest of us?    > 	 > > [...]  > > J > > Ya know, I even admit that there may be or at least may have been someF > > good from the unions, but you seem to be claiming that nothing the+ > > union does or could do is unreasonable.  > I > Never said that. I just have to keep countering the "not perfect, so no 8 > good at all" attitude I keep getting in these threads. >  > > How about if they resort to K > > suicide bombing? Would that be enough to make you think they're abusing H > > their power? They're already threatening the break the very law thatG > > allows them to be and still you don't see anything wrong with that.  > I > The law itself is illegal and unconstitutional, IMO. My opinion matters " > for spit, however, in this case. >  > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > + > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: $ > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  > $ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/  >  > Coming soon:( > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:49:16 -0600 (CST) * From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)I Subject: Re: Info-ZIP UnZip 6.0c BETA now available.  Zip usage question. 2 Message-ID: <05113015491676_2038971B@antinode.org>  * From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@vsm.com.au>  " > ODS-5 cpability is most welcome.  ,    Be sure to complain when it doesn't work.  K > I use -x (often for excluding .OBJ and .EXE when archiving source trees).   A    Example usage?  Anything more exotic than "*.EXE" or similar?   Anything with a directory?  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:30:45 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>I Subject: Re: Info-ZIP UnZip 6.0c BETA now available.  Zip usage question. + Message-ID: <438E6055.34B1634F@comcast.net>    "Steven M. Schweda" wrote: > G >    Info-ZIP UnZip 6.0c BETA is now available.  When combined with Zip J > 3.0e BETA, it should do a decent job with big (>2GB) files and archives,C > and it tries to cope better with extended file names on ODS5 file E > systems.  As always, complaints are welcome.  The (source-only) kit  > should be available at:  > N >       ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/OLD/beta/unz600c.ann (announcement)? >       ftp://ftp.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/OLD/beta/unz600c.zip  > 1 > The Zip 3.0e BETA kit is close by (zip30e.zip).  > 
 > -------- >   >       Informal Zip user survey  >       ------------------------ >  >    Zip has a pair of options:  > ( >       -x   exclude the following names- >       -i   include only the following names  > G > I don't think that they work as documented, and they definitely don't J > have conventional VMS /EXCLUDE and /INCLUDE behavior.  This leads to the > following questions: > 1 >    1. Is anyone using these Zip options on VMS?  > H >    2. Would anyone notice/care/complain if they started to behave more7 >       like typical VMS /EXCLUDE and /INCLUDE options?   @ Well, even before PIPE evolved, I was using this technique sinceD DIRECTORY's file selection criteria are vastly superior to ZIP's and* that of most other utilities, for example:  A $ DIRECTORYX/NOHEAD/NOTRAIL filespec/SELECT=criteria/OUT=TEMP.TMP 2 $ ZIP/LEVEL=8/VMS/KEEP archive_name/BATCH=TEMP.TMP   - or -     $ PIPE -7 	DIRECTORYX/NOHEAD/NOTRAIL filespec/SELECT=criteria | - 2 	ZIP/LEVEL=8/VMS/KEEP archive_name/BATCH=SYS$PIPE:   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:07:16 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?, Message-ID: <438E228E.53A21A4B@teksavvy.com>  H Has anyone had experience moving some VAX 4000 style cabinets (BA430 and BA440 cabinets) in a car ?  ? Would one be able to fit 2 inside ? How about 3 such cabinets ?   G The SOC mentions the cabinent is 69cm high, 53cm wide * 45cm deep ( 27"  * 21" * 17.8")  6 Or is a minivan something that is necessary for this ?   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 14:28:05 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> ( Subject: Re: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?C Message-ID: <1133389685.006405.170230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote: J > Has anyone had experience moving some VAX 4000 style cabinets (BA430 and > BA440 cabinets) in a car ? > A > Would one be able to fit 2 inside ? How about 3 such cabinets ?  > I > The SOC mentions the cabinent is 69cm high, 53cm wide * 45cm deep ( 27"  > * 21" * 17.8") > 8 > Or is a minivan something that is necessary for this ?  B If you're moving 3 then a mini-van or at least a mid-sized stationE wagon would be best.  You might be able to get them into a 4-dr sedan 4 (2 in the back and 1 in front) if it's a larger one.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:03:50 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ( Subject: Re: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?/ Message-ID: <11osmeeu9n705f@corp.supernews.com>    JF Mezei wrote: J > Has anyone had experience moving some VAX 4000 style cabinets (BA430 and > BA440 cabinets) in a car ? > A > Would one be able to fit 2 inside ? How about 3 such cabinets ?  > I > The SOC mentions the cabinent is 69cm high, 53cm wide * 45cm deep ( 27"  > * 21" * 17.8") > 8 > Or is a minivan something that is necessary for this ?   How big of a car do you have?   , How far?  Maybe multiple trips will suffice.   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 19:23:14 -0800, From: "rcyoung" <rcyoung@aliconsultants.com>( Subject: Re: Moving VAX 4000s in a car ?C Message-ID: <1133407394.946334.112410@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E I was lucky . I had to move a 4000 that was mounted in a "tall" rack. G However, I had a full size van and my wife's handicapped lift to assist G (the extra tall roof didn't hurt either). Short if these , you might do G better to rent a small truck from U-Haul where you can lay the cabinets B (minus any 4000s) flat so they will not "shift" around. I would beG careful of putting them in your "nice" van as sharp andprotruding edges . tend to catch things like car upholstery, etc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:21:53 -0600 C From: pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) 5 Subject: Re: Vaxstation 3100 1gig limit & MOP booting : Message-ID: <ZOqdnW5CyIZsihPenZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@comcast.com>  + In article <438A1D6F.3475B0D@teksavvy.com>, / JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >Martin Vorlaender wrote:  >>  1 >> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: M >> > I understand that the firmware in the Vaxstation 3100 is limited to 1gig 
 >> > disks >>  H >> I remember having heard that Wolfgang Moeller patched the 3100 ROM toK >> enable boot disks bigger than 1 GB. To make room for the patch, he threw + >> out, IIRC, the support for tape booting.  >  > H >Yes, I remember seeing his web site with full explanations on how to doF >it. Problem is that I don't have a ROM burning machine and never usedI >one :-) I'll check my lottery tickets to see hwo much I won, and perhaps ? >I can then afford a ROM burning machine... (or just buy a DS20 F >workstation loaded with all the toppings, or better yet, buy myself a/ >tropical island and forget about computers :-)   D I picked up an EPROM burner -- would some standard sized EPROM work?F I've got a VS3100M38 an I'd love to but some 9gb scsi in to boot from.H Actually the wide scsi and 80 pin stuff will work with the right adapter on the 50 pin cables.    Bill --   --  H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!#   pechter-at-ureachtechnologies.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:35:03 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 5 Subject: Re: Vaxstation 3100 1gig limit & MOP booting ( Message-ID: <ops022spdrzgicya@hyrrokkin>  2 On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:21:53 -0600, Bill Pechter  7 <pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net> wrote:   - > In article <438A1D6F.3475B0D@teksavvy.com>, 1 > JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >> Martin Vorlaender wrote:  >>> 2 >>> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:K >>> > I understand that the firmware in the Vaxstation 3100 is limited to    >>> 1gig >>> > disks  >>> I >>> I remember having heard that Wolfgang Moeller patched the 3100 ROM to H >>> enable boot disks bigger than 1 GB. To make room for the patch, he  	 >>> threw , >>> out, IIRC, the support for tape booting. >> >>J >> Yes, I remember seeing his web site with full explanations on how to doH >> it. Problem is that I don't have a ROM burning machine and never usedK >> one :-) I'll check my lottery tickets to see hwo much I won, and perhaps A >> I can then afford a ROM burning machine... (or just buy a DS20 H >> workstation loaded with all the toppings, or better yet, buy myself a1 >> tropical island and forget about computers :-)  > F > I picked up an EPROM burner -- would some standard sized EPROM work?H > I've got a VS3100M38 an I'd love to but some 9gb scsi in to boot from.J > Actually the wide scsi and 80 pin stuff will work with the right adapter > on the 50 pin cables.  >  > Bill  K I no longer have a 3100, but as I recall those were socketed so you need to J look at the proms you have, and find compatible EEPROMs.  And if you do,   burnE a bunch of them and I think you may be able to pay for your burner,    quickly.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:02:27 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: VMS web site bug , Message-ID: <438E1362.C86433EB@teksavvy.com>   warren sander wrote: > J > http://www.hp.com/go/vms/doc didn't exist until I created it a couple of# > seconds ago. It should mirror out - > to the hp.com servers in a couple of hours.     H It is working now. Many thanks. That is one big time saver shortcut (theH doc one) I didn't know about, it is good to have it combined with "vms".    E BTW, do you get statistics on how often the go/openvms and go/vms are F used ? Would those constitute the vast majority of referals to the VMSB home page ? Or do most visits actually come from people who browseI through the HP web site and actually find they way to the VMS home page ?    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Nov 2005 15:07:18 -0800( From: "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com> Subject: Re: VMS web site bug C Message-ID: <1133392038.830321.263690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   : My bookmark still says "http://www.openvms.digital.com"...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:41:32 -0500  From: "Jilly" <jilly@hp.com>9 Subject: Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.2] Crash in SYS$LAN_CSMACD * Message-ID: <438e1c8e@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  J I don't see any reports of this.  Get it logged thru your support center. . Make sure you have the V8.2 patches installed 1 ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V8.2/     D "Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in message $ news:438c74a7@news.langstoeger.at...( > Today we had a Crash with vanilla V8.2 >   > Crashdump Summary Information:  > ------------------------------, > Crash Time:        29-NOV-2005 06:35:00.48= > Bugcheck Type:     INVEXCEPTN, Exception while above ASTDEL & > Node:              NODE5   (Cluster)1 > CPU Type:          hp AlphaServer GS1280 7/1150  > VMS Version:       V8.2  > Current Process:   NULL $ > Current Image:     <not available>' > Failing PC:        FFFFFFFF.80647A04  % > LAN$TRANSMIT_DISABLE_CSMACD_C+00664 & > Failing PS:        20000000.00000804D > Module:            SYS$LAN_CSMACD    (Link Date/Time: 19-NOV-2004  > 08:59:02.48) > Offset:            00001A04  > , > Boot Time:         22-NOV-2005 13:58:05.00, > System Uptime:               6 16:36:55.48 > Crash/Primary CPU: 00/00 > System/CPU Type:   270F  > Saved Processes:   62 ) > Pagesize:          8 KByte (8192 bytes) G > Physical Memory:   16384 MByte (268435456 PFNs, discontiguous memory)  >  > + > Does that perhaps ring a bell somewhere ?  >  > TIA  >  > --   > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER ' > Network and OpenVMS system specialist  > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atI > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:20:08 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>5 Subject: Re: [ORACLE 10G] Installing on OpenVMS Alpha + Message-ID: <438E5DD8.1B30F004@comcast.net>    Dave Froble wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Dave Froble wrote: > >  > >>Martin Vorlaender wrote: > >>- > >>>Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  > >>>  > >>> & > >>>>Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > >>>> > >>>>O > >>>>>I find the recommendation of SYSGEN PQL_Mxxxxx values uhhhm interesting. K > >>>>>I understand CHANNELCNT and UAF parameters, but not the SYSGEN PQL_M  > >>>>>hammer. > >>>>F > >>>>The PQL_M* parameters are minimums for processes created without/ > >>>>LOGINOUT, so I don't see their relavence?  > >>>  > >>> L > >>>As Oracle creates a lot of detached processes, and seemingly from a lotM > >>>of places in their code, they suggest PQL_M* adjustments for performance J > >>>reasons instead of going through the hassle to work out decent quotas: > >>>for each and every ORA* process. A big hammer indeed. > >>>  > >>>cu,
 > >>>  Martin  > >>J > >>I would think that the PQL_D* parameters would be more appropriate for- > >>such?  Am I misunderstanding their usage?  > >  > > L > > Well, remember that the "D" stands for "Default", and the "M" stands forJ > > "Miminum" In PQL_D and PQL_M, respectively. The Minimums over-ride theE > > Default (or UAF) quotas only when the Minimum is greater than the  > > Default (or UAF) quota.  > >  > H > Right.  So leave the minimums alone, and set the defaults for what youJ > need.  That's what you'll get.  At least, that's the way I've been doing > it for the last 25 years.   E Well, the PQL_D's apply to $CREPRCs where no parameters are supplied. 5 The PQL_M's, however, apply to all process creations.   A I don't think I've ever fully grasped the subtlety of nuance that  represents, but...  H > I had a customer that thought the M stood for MAX.  She set one of theH > parameters extremely high, and the system almost came to a standstill.  8 Probably PQL_MWSDEFAULT or PQLMWSQUOTA or PQL_MWSEXTENT.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.668 ************************