0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 09 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 79      Contents:. Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help. Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help. Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help. Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help. Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help. Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questionsB carly(tm) does Davos - selling HP..er... Apple iPods on the slopes8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA" Re: Fonts used by an application ?" Re: Fonts used by an application ? Re: Full page color HP ad for  Re: Full page color HP ad for  Re: Full page color HP ad for  RE: Full page color HP ad for  HP Bored of Directing shuffle - Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... - Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... > Re: Known problems when serving Quicktime files with CSWS 1.3?% Re: OT- Like IBM stock when it was $1 ; Re: Purchasing Justifications (was: Re: Lexical to get ACL) 6 Re: REBOOT or SHUTDOWN, how to tell in SYSSHUTDWN.COMj! Re: Serving a different boot disk " Re: Setting up different ftp users0 Re: Setup of LN05 Laser on VMS v5.1 without DCPS0 Re: Setup of LN05 Laser on VMS v5.1 without DCPS SSH Problem with TCPIP V5.4? Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, RE: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 11:32:49 -0800  From: tadamsmar@yahoo.com 7 Subject: Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help B Message-ID: <1107891169.779758.57400@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: E > In article <1107870928.247207.107360@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,  tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes: E > :We have an AXP 150.  We are trying to upgrade the disk drives to a  Quantum  > :VP 32210. > A >   The DEC 2000 model 300 AXP series platform has an exceedingly 	 sensitive A >   SCSI configuration, and the Adaptec 1740/1742 controller will 	 typically @ >   only operate with the bus either entirely within or entirely outside the < >   box; the SCSI must be short, and carefully and correctly terminated. F >   There are also specific ROM requirements for the controller -- G.1 isF >   the only SCSI firmware revision that will work with OpenVMS, IIRC.C >   (The configurations that were sold and supported were carefully  testedD >   for correct operations.)  On a related matter -- if/when you get thisC >   configuration to work to your satisfaction -- I would also look  veryB >   carefully at the device cooling requirements for the enclosure	 involved, D >   as there are cases where newer disks will slowly cook within the older A >   enclosures, this due to cooling below thermal requirements of  certain + >   newer (and specifically, hotter) disks.  > D > :I have tried to restore an image on the Quantum drive,  but I getE > :a bug check during the verify phase.  I figured disk might be done B > :in spite of the bugcheck since the writing is complete when the > :verify phase begins.  > B >   That the bugcheck occurs points to a software or to a hardware error.B >   In either case, I would not particularly trust the results.  I would G >   look for ECO kits for whatever OpenVMS Alpha version is in use, and E >   -- as I am not particularly familiar with the specified disk -- I F >   would check the disk-related information in the FAQ for relevence.G >   The FAQ has details on the largest permissible disks for various of F >   the OpenVMS releases and platforms, and ECOs that can be required. > - > :Any ideas or information would be helpful.  > F >   There isn't a particularly good solution for adding storage beyondC >   the baseline DEC 2000 model 300 (and DEC 2000 model 500) series F >   systems, nor for the closely-related DECpc 150 AXP series platformD >   that was sold for and licensed for use with Microsoft Windows NTC >   Alpha.  The largest supported devices are listed in the Systems C >   and Options Catalog (SOC) entry for the platform, and there are = >   pointers to the SOC website available in the OpenVMS FAQ.   - I did not find that SOC, but I did find this;   = http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/comp/jul94.html   < I am trying to put about 4 gig in the cabinet (I have ~3 gig< in the cabinet right now, the old 1 gig and the "new" 2 gig.6 That seems to be within the capacity of these systems.  9 We have been running OpenVMS on this AXP 150 since we got ; it, so obviously we have the hardware revs to support this.   8 The drive is recognized, SHOW DEV shows the proper model= and capacity for the drive.  But, I guess this does not prove & that I can put a bootable image on it.  : I got the most recent firmware but it has the same version6 (2.2) as my loaded firmware with a different checksum.; So, I went ahead and upgraded the firmware just to leave no  stone unturned.   7 Now I a trying BACKUP/IMAGE one more time.  If this one ' craps out, I guess I am out of options.    > E >   Given the age and the configuration restrictions, I would tend to D >   look at replacing the platform with a newer used system, or withC >   an rx2600 series platform or similar.  These will permit larger D >   configurations, and have support for far larger storage options. > 4 >   Not the answer you want to hear, I know.  Sorry. > 2 >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- 3 >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --  www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq 4 >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion --------------------------- G >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 11:48:06 -0800  From: tadamsmar@yahoo.com 7 Subject: Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help C Message-ID: <1107892086.287729.233470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    tadamsmar@yahoo.com wrote: > Hoff Hoffman wrote: G > > In article <1107870928.247207.107360@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,  > tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes: G > > :We have an AXP 150.  We are trying to upgrade the disk drives to a 	 > Quantum  > > :VP 32210. > > C > >   The DEC 2000 model 300 AXP series platform has an exceedingly  > sensitive C > >   SCSI configuration, and the Adaptec 1740/1742 controller will  > typically B > >   only operate with the bus either entirely within or entirely
 > outside the > > >   box; the SCSI must be short, and carefully and correctly
 > terminated. D > >   There are also specific ROM requirements for the controller -- G.1  > isB > >   the only SCSI firmware revision that will work with OpenVMS, IIRC. E > >   (The configurations that were sold and supported were carefully  > testedF > >   for correct operations.)  On a related matter -- if/when you get > thisE > >   configuration to work to your satisfaction -- I would also look  > veryD > >   carefully at the device cooling requirements for the enclosure > involved, F > >   as there are cases where newer disks will slowly cook within the > older C > >   enclosures, this due to cooling below thermal requirements of 	 > certain - > >   newer (and specifically, hotter) disks.  > > F > > :I have tried to restore an image on the Quantum drive,  but I getG > > :a bug check during the verify phase.  I figured disk might be done D > > :in spite of the bugcheck since the writing is complete when the > > :verify phase begins.  > > D > >   That the bugcheck occurs points to a software or to a hardware > error.D > >   In either case, I would not particularly trust the results.  I > would E > >   look for ECO kits for whatever OpenVMS Alpha version is in use,  and G > >   -- as I am not particularly familiar with the specified disk -- I = > >   would check the disk-related information in the FAQ for 
 relevence.F > >   The FAQ has details on the largest permissible disks for various of> > >   the OpenVMS releases and platforms, and ECOs that can be	 required.  > > / > > :Any ideas or information would be helpful.  > > A > >   There isn't a particularly good solution for adding storage  beyondE > >   the baseline DEC 2000 model 300 (and DEC 2000 model 500) series ? > >   systems, nor for the closely-related DECpc 150 AXP series  platformF > >   that was sold for and licensed for use with Microsoft Windows NTE > >   Alpha.  The largest supported devices are listed in the Systems E > >   and Options Catalog (SOC) entry for the platform, and there are ? > >   pointers to the SOC website available in the OpenVMS FAQ.  > / > I did not find that SOC, but I did find this;  > ? > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/comp/jul94.html  > > > I am trying to put about 4 gig in the cabinet (I have ~3 gig> > in the cabinet right now, the old 1 gig and the "new" 2 gig.8 > That seems to be within the capacity of these systems. > ; > We have been running OpenVMS on this AXP 150 since we got = > it, so obviously we have the hardware revs to support this.  > : > The drive is recognized, SHOW DEV shows the proper model? > and capacity for the drive.  But, I guess this does not prove ( > that I can put a bootable image on it. > < > I got the most recent firmware but it has the same version8 > (2.2) as my loaded firmware with a different checksum.= > So, I went ahead and upgraded the firmware just to leave no  > stone unturned.  > 9 > Now I a trying BACKUP/IMAGE one more time.  If this one ) > craps out, I guess I am out of options.   7 It crapped out with a bug check during the verify pass.   < I wonder if any 2 gig or larger disks will work in this box.   >  > > G > >   Given the age and the configuration restrictions, I would tend to F > >   look at replacing the platform with a newer used system, or withE > >   an rx2600 series platform or similar.  These will permit larger F > >   configurations, and have support for far larger storage options. > > 6 > >   Not the answer you want to hear, I know.  Sorry. > > 4 > >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> > ----------------------------- 5 > >     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ --  > www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq 6 > >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion > --------------------------- 8 > >         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering hoff[at]hp.com   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 12:51:45 -0800  From: jordan@ccs4vms.com7 Subject: Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help C Message-ID: <1107895905.574431.176720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    tadamsmar@yahoo.com wrote:  ; > > Now I a trying BACKUP/IMAGE one more time.  If this one + > > craps out, I guess I am out of options.  > 9 > It crapped out with a bug check during the verify pass.  > > > I wonder if any 2 gig or larger disks will work in this box. >   F We successfully ran a DEC RZ29B (Seagate ST15150N OEM) and a DEC RZ29LC (Quantum Atlas-2 4550 OEM) in a Jensen for many years.  They (along B with an RZ26 type system disk) were all mounted internally, but weC added drive cooling fans that mounted in front and blew outside air @ over the drives.  Without those fans they would have died fairly quickly.  F All functions worked at the time, including 'standalone' image backupsG and restores.  We used the drives with OpenVMS V7.2-1 and V7.3-1 before D retiring the system last year (whence those drives moved over to VAX" usage, where they still run fine).   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:23:27 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 7 Subject: Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help 2 Message-ID: <j5aOd.7450$bH3.5130@news.cpqcorp.net>  _ In article <1107892086.287729.233470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes:   ? :> I am trying to put about 4 gig in the cabinet (I have ~3 gig ? :> in the cabinet right now, the old 1 gig and the "new" 2 gig. 9 :> That seems to be within the capacity of these systems.   C   Capacity isn't necessarily the issue.  Thermal (cooling) capacity A   (a secondary issue, as inadequate disk cooling won't typically  @   cause an immediate failure), and aggregate SCSI bus length and>   proper bus termination are typically the central issues in a   report such as this.     The classic SCSI maxim:   <     None of the S's in SCSI are for the word "Standard"  :-)  A   John Woods is known for another SCSI maxim, but I'll leave that ,   one to the interested reader to find.  :-)  B   There is most definitely some variation among different vendors ?   and different implementations, and the older you go, the more A   variation there tends to be.  Newer SCSI is not always entirely >   plug-compatible, and older SCSI tends to be rather less than   fully compatible.   E   For those that have not "enjoyed" the "fun" of device configuration F   and testing, there can be all manner of odd problems, and individualB   devices can most certainly have unique personalities.  You mightE   hope that devices are plug-compatible -- I certainly do -- but that D   compatibility has unfortunately not been my experience.  I've seenD   out-right errors in a few implementations, and -- even in the mostC   recent interface-related documents -- there can be ambiguities in D   the interface implementation, and different engineers involved can4   and variously do choose different interpretations.  < :> We have been running OpenVMS on this AXP 150 since we got> :> it, so obviously we have the hardware revs to support this.  B   AFAIK, OpenVMS Alpha was never sold on or for the DECpc 150 AXP,@   to be pedantic -- the so-called "universal" system was the DEC=   2000 series platform.  That the systems were so similar did C   mean that many folks did use the DECpc 150 AXP for OpenVMS Alpha, A   but I'd have to check the licenses involved to be certain this  >   was officially permitted.  Again, this may well be pedantic.  A   That you have the G.1 SCSI controller revision is necessary but A   not sufficient, too -- put another way, exactly how is the SCSI >   bus configured here?  This is the most critical detail here.  A   As for related details, the OpenVMS version is also potentially >   of some interest here, as there are versions and ECOs aroundB   that would be required -- older OpenVMS releases tend to be less>   adaptable to arbitrary third-party SCSI devices.  V6.2 was a@   start at this, and (circa) V7.1-2 has additional improvements.A   As the DEC 2000 was first supported with V1.5-1H1 (circa 1993), >   it can most definitely be running an OpenVMS version and can9   particularly have device drivers that are comparatively >   intolerant of arbitrary disk devices and the associated SCSI:   variations.  Again, newer drivers are (far) better here.  = :I wonder if any 2 gig or larger disks will work in this box.   ;   Only the disks that were sold with the box are officially    supported.  H :> >   Given the age and the configuration restrictions, I would tend toG :> >   look at replacing the platform with a newer used system, or with F :> >   an rx2600 series platform or similar.  These will permit largerG :> >   configurations, and have support for far larger storage options.  :> >7 :> >   Not the answer you want to hear, I know.  Sorry.     C   Again, the DEC 2000 series platform SCSI is very sensitive to the @   correct configuration of the SCSI, and to the devices that areC   present.  This SCSI is among the most sensitive of Alpha systems, C   in my experience, and an incorrect or over-long or an unsupported E   device can lead to exactly what you are seeing here, unfortunately.   @   I do wish you well with this effort, of course.  And again, I D   would be extremely careful on the SCSI bus configuration here, and=   (as a secondary matter) on the device thermal requirements.    	--   E   There's a related write-up on the topic of arbitrary devices in the    OpenVMS FAQ, FWIW.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:16:16 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> 7 Subject: Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help , Message-ID: <36sofcF54up1tU1@individual.net>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: a > In article <1107870928.247207.107360@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes: M > :We have an AXP 150.  We are trying to upgrade the disk drives to a Quantum  > :VP 32210. > K >   The DEC 2000 model 300 AXP series platform has an exceedingly sensitive K >   SCSI configuration, and the Adaptec 1740/1742 controller will typically L >   only operate with the bus either entirely within or entirely outside theH >   box; the SCSI must be short, and carefully and correctly terminated.I >   There are also specific ROM requirements for the controller -- G.1 is F >   the only SCSI firmware revision that will work with OpenVMS, IIRC.J >   (The configurations that were sold and supported were carefully testedI >   for correct operations.)  On a related matter -- if/when you get this H >   configuration to work to your satisfaction -- I would also look veryL >   carefully at the device cooling requirements for the enclosure involved,J >   as there are cases where newer disks will slowly cook within the olderI >   enclosures, this due to cooling below thermal requirements of certain + >   newer (and specifically, hotter) disks.    FWIW:   : Recent (6.1 and later?) VMS versions require G.2 firmware.   --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:21:57 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> 7 Subject: Re: AXP 150: trying to upgrade disk, need help 0 Message-ID: <42092D75.70507@applied-synergy.com>   tadamsmar@yahoo.com wrote:  $ > We have an AXP 150.  We are trying) > to upgrade the disk drives to a Quantum  > VP 32210.  > " > I have tried to restore an image" > on the Quantum drive,  but I get > a bug check during the verify  > phase.  I figured disk might" > be done in spite of the bugcheck > since the writing is complete  > when the verify phase begins.  > ! > But, I cannot boot on the disk.  > Also I cannot mount the disk,  > except via mount/for.  If  > I use mount, it tells me > the disk is offline. > $ > One guess is that I need to update" > my firmware to use these drives." > But I am having trouble figuring! > out if I am at the current rev, $ > since the console and the firmware( > site seem to use different identifiers( > for firmware revisions.   The firmware% > web site has version 2.2 available.  > ' > When I do a show config on my system, ' > it lists AXP firmware version 370 VMS # > PAL x5.48.  The release notes for # > version 2.2 on the web site seems % > to imply that show config with show % > version 370 after the upgrade, so I ( > don't know if I need go to the trouble > to upgrade the firmware. > # > Any ideas or information would be 
 > helpful.  J It may depend on the version of VMS (and Standalone Backup) you are using.  H I have had problems with some Quantum drives in this type of box.  Some C of the Quantum drives have had defective implementations of Tagged  D Command Queueing (TCQ).  This may need to be disabled for the drive.  E The particular drive I had trouble with worked with VMS 6.2, but not  
 with VMS 6.1.   F Also, as Steve mentioned, make sure that your cabling and termination C are good.  I use two 1742 controllers in my box.  One for external  L drives and one for internal.  Putting both on one controller was unreliable.  H My system is currently in use, so I can't shut it down to check the SRM  version, but 370 sounds right.  
 Good luck!   --  G ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:54:06 +0000 (UTC)- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) # Subject: Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions . Message-ID: <cubcdt$8ta$3@newslocal.mitre.org>  } tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes in article <1107781228.898368.45180@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> dated 7 Feb 2005 05:00:28 -0800: / >I am replacing disks on a system with a broken  >tape drive. > / >The new disk is twice the capacity of the old.  >1 gig to 2 gig, I think.  > - >Is there any problem with using BACKUP/IMAGE + >for a disk to disk copy in this situation?    Perfect.   >Should I use /NOALIAS?   K I don't think it will affect a /IMAGE backup, but I would leave it out when  going disk-to-disk anyway.    . >There is something in HELP BACKUP/IMAGE about- >preservation of the cluster factor.  Is that ( >a problem in this situation, going to a
 >larger disk.   H You don't say what version of VMS.  IIRC, VMS 7.2 (or was it 7.1-2?) hadK support for smaller cluster factors but not as the system disk, which would = make it a problem.  7.3-1 has no problem with extra clusters.   + >Can I copy from the live system disk using * >BACKUP/IMAGE?  If not, I can boot off the >CD.  G There are a bunch of things that can bite you when you try to back up a B running system disk.  Booting from the CD is the best thing to do.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:41:45 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> K Subject: carly(tm) does Davos - selling HP..er... Apple iPods on the slopes , Message-ID: <AuednRqX9auci5TfRVn-iA@igs.net>  E http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/cmp/20050128/tc_cmp/59100270     L .... `I think (2005) will be a year of growth in IT spending'' she said, butI added, ``we need to be realistic about what growth in the IT sector means  going forward.''  > ...but we won't advertise some of our most profitable products    J .... She said HP has taken steps to try to avoid letting its PCs and other4 products become commodities with low profit margins.  I ...tell that to the Chinese, Taiwanese, and everyone else who's trying to L scoop marketshare to justiy the existence of their costly factory. ProducingK at the margin is just found money for companies like those. And since HP is H mostly a reseller of products produced in other people's factories......" guess who is going to get squeezed    F ``We don't want to acquire a company with a cost structure of the last decade,'' she said.   I ...Ooops. Guess she didn't hear about Compaq and their costly to assemble  DS10's   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 02:08:07 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA ) Message-ID: <4209702C.6050205@swbell.net>    John Smith wrote:  > patrick jankowiak wrote: >  >>Morten Reistad wrote:  >> >>, >>>In article <41F31CAE.6000803@swbell.net>,. >>>patrick jankowiak  <eccm@swbell.net> wrote: >>>  >>>  >>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>D >>>>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the UniversityB >>>>>for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from aC >>>>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince A >>>>>the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really @ >>>>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-(A >>>>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can @ >>>>>come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would alsoA >>>>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with < >>>>>guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>>  >>> = >>>Corporate sponsors are just as shallow. We need to come up   >>>with a workable museum first. >>>  >>>  >>> E >>>>I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just C >>>>waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me want to G >>>> listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep F >>>>a good mindset but this step is getting me down. It has to be done >>>>though.  >>>>	 >>>>OPCOM  >>>  >>> A >>>A computer museum will need large amounts of space; as well as B >>>access to largish amounts of energy when someone decides to runF >>>the machines. Much can be mocked up for the standard visitor, usingD >>>emulators to show software on the correct terminals. But machines@ >>>must be kept intact. We also have the issue of documentation. >>> E >>>Such space fast becomes the major problem. It cannot be in or very H >>>near major cities, because land is too expensive there. And the scale/ >>>of this is big enough for a full theme park.  >>>  >>>So why not do this? >>> D >>>Make a theme park around technology development and preservation.B >>>Remember that the audience is a premium one for many locations.C >>>The nerds or wannabees that visit such places have above average B >>>income, are not very inclined to boozing and gambling, and tend* >>>to leave the facilities without damage. >>> C >>>It will have to be located somewhere outside the mainstream, and @ >>>must be the magnet for people itself. Just like Disney World. >>> 	 >>>-- mrr  >>>  >>>  >>1 >>Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, 3 >>have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. 5 >>A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see 4 >>it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks# >>don't like the hot weather much..  >>8 >>The place could become a location of pilgrimages where9 >>acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform 6 >>5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon3 >>while across the park, boy electricians made huge 0 >>sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors.. >>7 >>Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling / >>RA81's and during this activity, connected to 8 >>amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped- >>floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" - >>"Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!!  >>Watch out for the heads!!"+ >>Space mountain's got nothing on this one!  >>5 >>Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a 9 >>minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, 5 >>that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 8 >>with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf; >>cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. 8 >>And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights6 >>dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim,7 >>AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, 2 >>machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I3 >>know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other  >>stately machines.  >>9 >>On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? 3 >>Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic 5 >>technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment 6 >>with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators; >>from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure 2 >>plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a, >>microwave beam through the plasma chamber? >>' >>The progress of everything high tech:  >>computers  >>RF >>audio 1 >>Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those)  >>plain old electricity  >>tesla coil (very very large) >>open-frame dynamos >>what else? >>! >>Might cost what $100M to start?  >>; >>The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, 0 >>and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates. >>0 >>It's wonderful and would probably make tons of$ >>moolah.. Who's going to call Bill? >  >  > L > You'd probably have more luck with Allen, Wozniak, and Ellison. Maybe even
 > Ross Perot.  >  >  Yeah, but I'm not the guy to pull that off. I'm an evil genius with a soldering iron and a logic analyzer, not a big businesman.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 02:20:14 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA ) Message-ID: <42097304.8040705@swbell.net>    Rich Alderson wrote:  , > John Hudak <jhudak@sei.cmu.edu> top-posts: > > > [ moved for the sake of people who know how to read Usenet ] >  >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > D >>> In article <41f237b0$0$821$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>,7 >>> 	Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> writes:  >  > # >>>>MoS | Museum of Science, Boston  >>>>http://www.tcm.org/  >  > L >>>Isn't this the place that trashed all their real computer stuff includingL >>>stuff that had been donated by people like Dennis Ritchie?  I sure didn't: >>>see anything vintage computer related on thier website. >  >  >>> bill >  > O >>Hmmm, I didn't think they *trashed* their stuff...My understanding is that it M >>was moved to the west coast and only a subset of the stuff was displayed...  >  > N > Much stuff was destroyed--for example, the Stanford PDP-6 which was given toO > them following the 20 Anniversary celebration at the 1984 DECUS Fall Symposia K > seems to have disappeared completely.  The Computer History Museum is the Q > result of rescuing as much as possible from their junk heap, and moving on from  > there. > > I have sent an e-mail to the curator of the CHM. No reply yet.   Patrick    ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:03:54 +0000 (UTC)- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) + Subject: Re: Fonts used by an application ? . Message-ID: <cubd0a$8ta$4@newslocal.mitre.org>  ' JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> p  writes in article <1107860803.2a3a9b14d4653692862ed69a5e95abdb@teranews> dated Tue, 08 Feb 2005 06:18:05 -0500:! >martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk wrote: F >> My guess is it uses the default font and uses the "special" charset >> within that font. > I >To do it this way, wouldn't one have to create a font list that contains E >a character-set/font combination ? If So, this data should have been 2 >visible in the images and sections I looked into. > F >X font specifications tend to be very obvious in an executable image.  4 $ search SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]tpu$motifshr.exe ISO8859# Records matched:                1     D It's surrounded by <NUL>s, but TPU must use that string to build the< font name.  There would be no other reason for it to appear.  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 18:23:45 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> + Subject: Re: Fonts used by an application ? B Message-ID: <1107904423.839a2363f87f313558b8f0a6e0eef238@teranews>   "Keith A. Lewis" wrote: 6 > $ search SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]tpu$motifshr.exe ISO8859# > Records matched:                1  > F > It's surrounded by <NUL>s, but TPU must use that string to build the> > font name.  There would be no other reason for it to appear.  H The character set name is tagged on to every XmString value. In fact, itF is tagged on to every segment of a string value in X. If you do a dumpE of the file (or edit it), you'll see much more clearly the context of + the ISO8859-1 before every string constant.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 20:50:56 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> & Subject: Re: Full page color HP ad for2 Message-ID: <QC9Od.7448$oI3.5386@news.cpqcorp.net>  
 CJT wrote: > John Smith wrote: H >> No mention of *any* operating system. Guess that means I can install  >> Solaris on it.  >  > Perhaps if you port it.   9 Sun themselves ported Solaris to Itanium a few years ago: 5 http://news.com.com/2008-1082-248986.html?legacy=cnet   Quoting Sun's Ed Zander in 2000:I "We ported Solaris to Intel... We entered into a deal with Intel several  $ years ago to do Itanium. We did it."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:03:32 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e& Subject: Re: Full page color HP ad for, Message-ID: <qJidnTNfKuqxtJTfRVn-qw@igs.net>   Keith Parris wrote:y > CJT wrote: >> John Smith wrote:H >>> No mention of *any* operating system. Guess that means I can install >>> Solaris on it. >> >> Perhaps if you port it. >n; > Sun themselves ported Solaris to Itanium a few years ago:s7 > http://news.com.com/2008-1082-248986.html?legacy=cneto" > Quoting Sun's Ed Zander in 2000:B > "We ported Solaris to Intel... We entered into a deal with Intel. > several years ago to do Itanium. We did it."     Does his "We did it" refer to:? a) the act of porting to an unspecified Intel architecture chipo b) Itanic specifically.p c) The agreement to port.rD d) Zander's statement is to ambiguous to know exactly what he meant. e) All of the above.' f) None of the above - it was all hype.r  ) When were the first Itanic chips shipped?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:57:55 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>H& Subject: Re: Full page color HP ad forB Message-ID: <1107902791.693a7cf9f7fda7803b7ec487c6ef49c7@teranews>   Keith Parris wrote:a; > Sun themselves ported Solaris to Itanium a few years ago:v  H There is a huge difference between a pilot project to boot the OS onto a) new platform and a real porting project. ?  E Look at how quickly the engineers were able to do the first "boot" ofrH VMS on IA64 after the announcement of the alpya murder, and compare thisG to how long it took to get to January 18th when VMS was officially madei available on IA64.  C You can also look at Windows 2000 (I think) that had been ported toi Alpha but never productized.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:26:57 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>?& Subject: RE: Full page color HP ad forR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F1D6@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com]=20t  > Sent: February 8, 2005 5:58 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0( > Subject: Re: Full page color HP ad for >=20 > Keith Parris wrote:1= > > Sun themselves ported Solaris to Itanium a few years ago:a >=20? > There is a huge difference between a pilot project to boot=20t > the OS onto a - > new platform and a real porting project.=200 >=20G > Look at how quickly the engineers were able to do the first "boot" ofu@ > VMS on IA64 after the announcement of the alpya murder, and=20 > compare this< > to how long it took to get to January 18th when VMS was=20 > officially madeu > available on IA64. >=20  B A bit more background from the past on Solaris and Merced/Itanium:  0 Sun Announcement for Merced platform: (Dec 1997)A http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9712/sunflash.971216.3.htmliH "SANTA CLARA, Calif., Dec. 16, 1997 -- Sun Microsystems, Inc., and IntelG Corporation today announced that they are cooperating to optimize Sun'sfF Solaris operating environment for Intel's future Merced processor. SunC will deliver a 64-bit optimized version of the Solaris software forvC Merced at the time of Merced-based system availability, expected inn 1999.=20  H The cooperative effort will extend Sun's current success with Solaris toE Intel's IA-64 Merced processor. This is significant for customers who E require an operating environment that fully leverages the performancerD and scalability that the Solaris operating environment on the Merced processor will deliver.=20  D Under the agreement, Intel will support Sun's efforts on porting andB optimizing the full Solaris operating environment for Merced-basedA systems. In addition, Sun also announced today a Solaris on Intel A porting and tuning center designed to help ISVs and OEMs tune andnC optimize applications for Solaris on Intel. As part of the program,-D Intel will provide technical support. In addition, the two companies< will expand their efforts on IA-32 and IA-64 server platform
 initiatives."o  	 [snip ..]p   (Oct 1999):aB http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/10/26/solaris_on_ia64_is_undead/H "Fujitsu Siemens' decision to go with its own SPARC chip in its servers,G rather than Sun's UltraSPARC III or Intel's Itanium (aka Merced) causedDB some of the UK's more rabid hacks to blether on about the death ofH Solaris on IA-64. However, Sun itself, with a little help from ChipzillaH engineers, has quietly got on with it and announced that Solaris has nowB successfully booted on early samples of Itanium at Intel's labs inF Beaverton, US. "With Solaris now running on the Itanium processor, SunH has achieved another key milestone [What exactly were the other ones? --@ Ed] on our IA-64 road map," said Rich Green, VP of Sun's SolarisG Products Group. While Sun goes on at some length about the whole reasonrH for the port being to protect customer investments, etc, etc, it doesn'tD hide the fact that the software bits of Sun have always had a prettyF cosy relationship with Intel, probably a good deal cosier than SmilingC Scott McNealy would like. Asking Sun if Solaris on Merced marks the H beginning of the end for the proprietary SPARC architecture meets with aF firm official "No", but with Sun belonging to a fast-shrinking band ofC non-IA vendors, how long can the inevitable be put off? Does anyonek= remember SGI's vehement protestations of maintaining hardwaren independence last year?o  ' And something more current: (July 2004)fH http://news.com.com/Sun+ponders+Solaris+for+Power%2C+Itanium/2100-1016_3
 -5277375.htmlfB "Solaris is working on Itanium servers in the lab, Schwartz said."  E > You can also look at Windows 2000 (I think) that had been ported to  > Alpha but never productized. >=20  H Well, given Digital/Compaq Engineers did all the OS porting, testing andC packaging of Windows NT4 and Windows 2000 beta2 (last semi-official-G release for Windows on Alpha) in Digital/Compaq facilities, once Compaq D announced they were pulling out Alpha support for Windows platforms,; Microsoft could not very well productize it could they? =20n  + [insert coulda, shoulda, mighta stuff next](     Regardsm  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660- Fax: 613-591-44775 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:44:31 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t& Subject: HP Bored of Directing shuffle, Message-ID: <s56dnVpaGZM5i5TfRVn-jQ@igs.net>  L http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/sv/20050208/tc_sv/vclegendperkinsto
 rejoinhpboard     $ VC legend Perkins to rejoin HP board   Tue Feb 8, 6:46 AM ETo      By Therese Poletti, Mercury News  L Legendary venture capitalist Thomas Perkins will return to Hewlett-Packard's$ board, the company announced Monday.  L Perkins, who previously served on the HP board after its merger with Compaq,G replaces former Walt Disney executive Sanford Litvack, who retired laste week.O  G Perkins, 73, is the co-founder of the pioneering Silicon Valley venturea. capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.  L The board shuffle follows a recent report in the Wall Street Journal that HPJ directors are considering shifting some operational duties away from ChiefL Executive Carly Fiorina. Taking up more day-to-day responsibilities would beL three of Fiorina's top lieutenants: Vyomesh Joshi, who heads the printer andF soon-to-be merged PC business; Ann Livermore, head of services and theL corporate computer business; and Shane Robison, the company's chief strategy and technology officer.i  G "We consider much of the Wall Street Journal piece to be speculative in E nature," HP spokesman Bob Sherbin said Monday. "Board discussions ared? private and we won't comment on their nature or their content."p  J Fiorina recently told reporters attending the World Economic Forum (news -L web sites) in Davos, Switzerland, that her relationship with the HP board is
 excellent.  L HP's day-to-day operations became an issue in August when the company missedG its earnings targets, in part because of a mishandled conversion to neweL software in its corporate computer business. Fiorina immediately fired three top sales executives.   L Last quarter, HP bounced back with better-than-expected revenues and profitsG in the corporate server business. But the company said it will continueeG cutting costs and plans layoffs that will lead to a $200 million chargee# sometime in the first half of 2005.   H Perkins, an outspoken investor, could possibly shake things up on the HPI board. He was on the board of directors at Compaq Computer, and he joined I the HP board after the Palo Alto company's $19 billion merger with CompaqmD was completed in 2002. He retired from the HP board in January 2004.  ; Perkins was traveling and not available for comment Monday.h  J Sherbin declined to comment on board discussions, but he noted that the HP board has an age limit of 70.   I "The board can waive the age limit and has done so in the past, for amongdL others, Perkins himself," Sherbin said. He added that the age requirement isB waived for one year, which is the length of a board member's term.  D Perkins joined the Compaq board after Compaq's acquisition of Tandem Computers in 1997.  F "He is such a decisive, brilliant strategist," said Jimmy Treybig, theF founder of Tandem Computers, who early in his career worked at Kleiner Perkins.  J When Treybig founded Tandem in Cupertino in 1974, Kleiner Perkins providedL the company's initial funding and Perkins became chairman of Tandem's board.H "He always asked the hard questions. . . . He just doesn't sit there and listen," Treybig said.  G Perkins is no stranger to HP. Before founding his venture capital firm,dC Perkins worked at HP, where he was the first general manager of theo company's computing business.o  I "Here is a guy who has deep, deep technology connections, has previous HPpL experience in his background, a long history in the PC industry, a guy who IF think will vigorously review business decisions," said Harry Blount, aL Lehman Brothers analyst who does not own any HP stock. "I think it is a very4 positive move that brings some energy to the board."      K In his past stint on the HP board, Perkins chaired the board's subcommittee  focused on technology.  K Perkins, who joined the HP board as of Monday, will be part of the slate of J directors that the company is presenting to shareholders. The slate, whichJ will be sent to shareholders in an upcoming proxy statement, will be votedF on ahead of HP's annual meeting, which is set for March 16 in Chicago.   ------------  G Interesting to note the exception made to bring this guy back on board.e  7 Do I hear the sound of the headsman sharpening his axe?-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:29:22 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i6 Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend...., Message-ID: <TYednd5B3vyKjpTfRVn-vw@igs.net>   DeanW wrote:E > On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:16:03 -0700, Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>  > wrote: >I' >> You don't sell server-class machinestF >> on mass-market TV.  When was the last time you laughed over the Sun@ >> or IBM mainframe or HPUX or AIX or MPE .... commercial?  I'll6 >> repeat: you're not reaching the people you need to. >mC > Then, I have to ask: If that media doesn't work, why do IBM et al  > continue to use it?w     IBM Thinks.n& HP adapts (read: blows with the wind).   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 19:40:56 -0600h4 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)6 Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend....3 Message-ID: <GB1hNoc7bJO6@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  Z In article <110g945nrdiui7f@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:D >> In article <6.1.2.0.2.20050207150836.0244bcb0@raptor.psccos.com>,+ >> 	Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes:p >> o( >>>At 02:57 PM 2/7/2005, JF Mezei wrote: >>>p >>>>Dan O'Reilly wrote:e >>>>+ >>>>>..and what would it have accomplished?  >>>>>c >>>>>Answer: nothing.3 >>>>>4K >>>>>It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the J >>>>>game.  And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on >>>>>a Super Bowl ad." >>>>" >>>>WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. >>>>K >>>>It would send a LOUD AND CLEAR message to the world that VMS is back in(I >>>>business under the HP brand and contrary to popular beliefe, it isn'ttN >>>>dead and its robustness, qality etc is exactly what businesses need today. >>>rJ >>>Who in "the world" would care????  You don't sell server-class machinesI >>>on mass-market TV.  When was the last time you laughed over the Sun or 9 >>>IBM mainframe or HPUX or AIX or MPE .... commercial?  C >> x >> uC >> I seldom laugh at them, unless they were intended to actually be A >> funny.  Mostly, I watch them to get an idea where a particular C >> company is and is headed.  Sometimes, the commercial leads me toi; >> go out and do more research to learn even more about it.  >> g >> aK >>>                                                     I'll repeat: you're ' >>>not reaching the people you need to.n >> d >>  K >> You honestly think that no executives care about football or were likelynJ >> to watch the SuperBowl?  Who do you think owns those teams?  Why do you2 >> think all the stadiums have corporate sponsors? >> d >> bJ >>>It works for Dell PC's because people know what a Dell PC is.  It worksJ >>>for Gateway for the same reason.  But it wouldn't work for VMS because,L >>>frankly, nobody who could make a decision would seriously make a decision8 >>>based on the idea that it was in a TV ad.  Puh-lease! >> n >> iG >> It's not about making a decision based on the commercial (I love thenC >> Budweiser commercials, but I am not about to buy their beer. :-)dG >> It is about making people aware of a product.  It's so that when the I >> salesman actually comes to their office they actually know the productmK >> exists.  If the commercial is done well enough, everyone will be talking G >> about it in the office for at least a week.  That might make someoneuI >> interested enough to actually research the product.  Right now, no oneiJ >> even knows about VMS so they are unlikely to go looking for information >> about it. >> e >> bill  >> s > J > I'm not sure where I'd stand on an advertisement during the Super Bowl. N >   It's real easy to spend someone else's money.  However, some observations. > J > The stupid donkey in the Budweiser commercials does gain your interest. E >   What I mean is that you remember the commercial.  And that's the pE > purpose of a commercial, to get your attention, not to educate you.S > A > As for computer related commercials, how many remember the IBM nI > commercial, with the guy calling the cops over an empty computer room? aC > Yeah, that's right, quite a few remember that one, and those who cH > remember it the most would be those affected by a room full of single I > purpose computers.  That commercial made it's point, and is remembered.  > I > If such a commercial were done, it would have to be as good as the IBM wJ > commercial, or it would be a waste of money.  Just spending money for a I > commercial does nothing.  The question is, does HP have anyone with an r > appropriate message? >  > Dave  E HP has a ton of commercials on the air.  I didn't see any during the  B Super Bowl, but they are out there.  Most of them are pimping the E photo printer simplicity (guy holding up a slew of pictures that turn>B into real people, etc), or how they sell systems that adapt to theC changing world (person walking through office with city morphing inoA background).  Coming up with an ad that promotes a system that issE unhackable, virus-proof, disaster tolerant, etc (that just happens to ; be VMS), would help HP promote their unique position in the B marketplace as the one that "makes sure your systems are ready for7 anything" (or some other appropriate marketing slogan).A  C My take on this is that HP should be promoting how they can providenF virus proof, bullet proof, scalable, super reliable systems.  The factD that they are running VMS shouldn't make that promotional idea a badF one.  (Perhaps you could have the scene from Monty Python's Holy GrailC where in response to "Bring out your dead!" an old man warbles "I'm C not dead yet" as the jumping off point for the ad.  But I digress.)-   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:32:01 +0000 (UTC)- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)[G Subject: Re: Known problems when serving Quicktime files with CSWS 1.3?:. Message-ID: <cubb4h$8ta$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) writes in article <00A3EE69.77F20170@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> dated Sat, 05 Feb 2005 01:43:15 GMT:J >My Mime.Types has qt and mov defined as application/quicktime.  I haven't& >configured anything else non-default.  I My default CSWS 1.2 MIME.TYPES file has qt and mov on the video/quicktime3 line.s   >(What he gets backxJ >is noticeably larger than what was on disk, and QuickTime won't play it.)  J The size ratio might give a clue.  If it's 4:3 that's probably a result of base-64 encoding.  e  B Also take a look at the record format on the stored file.  I think* everything must be in Stream_LF for 1.3.    0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 06:51:12 +0000 (UTC)- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)h. Subject: Re: OT- Like IBM stock when it was $1$ Message-ID: <cucbt0$4kk$1@online.de>   illegal message cancelledv   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:53:23 -0600s2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>D Subject: Re: Purchasing Justifications (was: Re: Lexical to get ACL)+ Message-ID: <42098932.E6F3CC48@comcast.net>d   Hoff Hoffman wrote:e > b > In article <420815B3.C52CFE6E@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > :Hoff Hoffman wrote: > :>) > :>   As for the concern, buy more disk.  > ::J > :Easier said than done. Worked in Corporate America lately? Tried to getI > :*ANY*thing OpenVMS past the bean-counters and the Lord High Exchequer?  > J >   Most any organization will have purchasing restrictions, lest it startK >   leaking volumes of cash.  This is part of basic business practices, andgJ >   even an MBA or an engineer -- to pick the two most distant ends of theF >   business spectrum :-) -- can certainly understand the need for it. > N >   Hemorrhaging cash is not a viable long-term strategy for any organization.  D However, when the bureaucratic behemoth can't get out of its own way/ long enough to take care of itself, guess what?n  G > :...but then, of course, you're buying stuff for your employer out ofIH > :your own pocket, and they certainly aren't about to reimburse you for/ > :something in which they see no value/future.  > C >   I purchase kit that I then use for my own continuing education.h > C >   Given prices of used low-end hardware, this investment is quiteoD >   small -- as I have referenced before, decent AlphaStation XP1000C >   series configurations appear on eBay fairly regularly, and seemlB >   to sell below US$1000.  (I haven't purchased one of these, but% >   have certainly thought about it.).  G However, we're talking about (potentially) tens of thousands of dollarstH of used kit (new prices would be well into the hundreds of thousands, orF low millions) to keep (some of) these installations going. Dunno 'bout. yours, but my budget doesn't stretch that far.  D >   As for purchasing equipment within Corporate America, I work outC >   the return for the purchase of the widget, and provide the casexC >   to those that hold the keys to the treasury.  If we buy "this", E >   then here are the costs and here is the return -- if we don't buy C >   it, here are the costs.   Depending on the environment, selling,E >   off surplus kit is another approach -- and the faster it goes outyF >   the door, the more it is worth, of course.  This is basic business5 >   operations and business adminstration, of course..  H Trouble is, most of 'em would flunk out of Business 101 (too experiencedD for that, y'know ;-)) if they tried to start over today. Besides, ifE it's not "industry" (read: "de facto") "standard", they're not buying-H ("What? It doesn't run W/XP?"). Not to mention: ROI doesn't mean much toE people that the paramedics are reviving from the sticker shock of the  CTA (Cost To Acquire).  C Try not to take any of this personally - I've been working too hardT2 lately, and it's not going to let up anytime soon.   <rant>H Y'know, I really need to find a way to get the HP insiders in this groupH understand something: HP/VMS knows it can't afford to replace you. FolksG of your calibre simply don't exist anywhere else, and newbies don't GAF D about VMS - training replacements is a lost cause. So, they're gonnaG blow as much sunshine up your skirt as they can muster, fabricate, etc. H just to keep you happy and humming the company song. If any of you couldG see VMS through the eyes of one of us on *THIS* side of the job search, E systems market, etc., you'd whistle rather a different tune, I shouldi think.  B I once issued this challenge to a figure prominent in the hobbyistF movement: take an extended leave from your gig, and come live me for aH minimum of six months, out here in "the real world" where VMS jobs can'tH be bought, begged, borrowed or stolen, but you still have to keep a roofF over your own head, food in your pantry, etc. Upon your return, you'llC find your perspective will have shifted, rather a good bit I shouldC think.  E Just my opinion, of course. Yours may vary, probably quite radically.c </rant>o   -- y David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:56:20 -0600T2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>? Subject: Re: REBOOT or SHUTDOWN, how to tell in SYSSHUTDWN.COMjw+ Message-ID: <420989E4.462443BD@comcast.net>s   Beach Runner wrote:e > [snip]? > Just run the procedure shutdown.com and you have all control..  E Not quite: SHUTDOWN(.COM) (apparently - haven't researched it myself) F doesn't pass anything to SYSHUTDWN.COM to indicate the difference he's. looking for. See earlier posts in this thread.   -- . David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:i" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/s   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:41:41 +0000 (UTC)- From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis)a* Subject: Re: Serving a different boot disk. Message-ID: <cubbml$8ta$2@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com> writes in article <4204A802.4376.D5DC9DE@localhost> dated Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:03:30 -0500:iF >I have a VAX running VMS V5.5.  I have a second system disk that I'd E >like to "serve" to another VAX so it can network boot.  But I don't I) >want it to cluster with the boot server.> >tB >I can do this with LANCP in VMS 6.x with DECnet-Plus (pardon the  >wrap):t >  >$ MCR LANCP9 >set node X /addr=08-00-02-xx-xx-xx /file=niscs_load.exe e >/root=DISK2:[SYS0.] >fE >However, I can't seem to find the corresponding incantation for VMS c  >5.5 with DECnet (IV, non-Plus).  $ Under VMS 7.x Alpha, DECnet IV, it's  	 $ mc ncp  % set node x hard add 08-00-02-xx-xx-xx  set node x load file APB.EXE4 set node x load assist agent SYS$SHARE:NISCS_LAA.EXE* set node x load assist param DISK2:<SYS0.>% def node x hard add 08-00-02-xx-xx-xxt def node x load file APB.EXE4 def node x load assist agent SYS$SHARE:NISCS_LAA.EXE* def node x load assist param DISK2:<SYS0.> $!  ' 4 parameters, including 2 executables. >  0 --Keith Lewis              klewis {at} mitre.org> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 15:33:50 -0800  From: tomarsin2015@comcast.net+ Subject: Re: Setting up different ftp userssC Message-ID: <1107905630.698793.233290@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>>  ; Thanks for the reply, but the admin wants to go with tcpip.o   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 17:10:34 -0800w( From: "Nessie" <i_jones1960@yahoo.co.uk>9 Subject: Re: Setup of LN05 Laser on VMS v5.1 without DCPSiA Message-ID: <1107911434.019167.3150@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   $ Thanks very much, I'll try that out.  H By the way, where would I find the DECPRINT POSTSCRIPT TO SIXEL utility?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:19:40 -0500j- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>a9 Subject: Re: Setup of LN05 Laser on VMS v5.1 without DCPSaB Message-ID: <1107914880.d481bddd08ad1733bcd86c3bc2a97212@teranews>  
 Nessie wrote:>J > By the way, where would I find the DECPRINT POSTSCRIPT TO SIXEL utility?  D It should still be in CONDIST CDs from the 1990s. This utility neverD made it to Alpha. And it is postscript level1 only. Not sure how youH could legally obtain a licence from HP though. You might be able to findG a license from a friend. Not many people used that utility. It also canh" generate output for LA75 printers.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 13:06:54 -0800  From: mcbill20@yahoo.com% Subject: SSH Problem with TCPIP V5.4?eA Message-ID: <1107896814.873330.6670@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   C I recently upgraded TCPIP 5.4 (no ECO) from 5.3. After upgrading, IeG enabled SSH. I then downloaded PUTTY in order to do a quick test. I was E able to successfully login using PUTTY, although I noticed occasionalt; console messages about problems deleting TCPIP$SSH_RUN.LOG.e  G At the time, it wasn't a high priority so I didn't worry too much abouteC it. Unfortunately, my console is an LA120 and when I came in to thesE computer room today I found that a half box of paper had been printed1A with messages from SSH. Apparently machines in France, Poland anduF Australia (according to NSLOOKUP) had been trying to get in using SSH.E As for the breakin part, I am not too concerned as my machine is veryoD well locked down and only local access is enabled for any privileged	 accounts.   A However, I was hoping to be able to leave SSH accessible from thecC outside for when I need to login and look up something or do simpleaF admin. The intrusion problem is frustrating enough, but I would reallyF like to know what the problem is with SSH. This machine is running VMS4 7.3-1 (all latest patches) and TCPIP 5.4 (no ECO's).  G Each time the remote machine would try to log in I would get a securityeF message but it would then be followed by multiple file access conflict> messages regarding the deletion of TCPIP$SSH_RUN.LOG (multiple
 versions).  B I looked through this group but didn't find anything on this. DOes' anyone know if this is a known problem?'  ? I wanted to include samples, but apparently (maybe for securityiE reasons) most of the output that goes to the console does not go intod3 the operator log. All I see in the operator log is:   8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM   8-FEB-2005 08:56:42.44  %%%%%%%%%%%$ Message from user INTERnet on SHAGGYB INTERnet ACP SSH Accept Request from Host: 80.53.255.44 Port: 3065  8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM   8-FEB-2005 08:56:48.24  %%%%%%%%%%%$ Message from user INTERnet on SHAGGYB INTERnet ACP SSH Accept Request from Host: 80.53.255.44 Port: 3166  8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM   8-FEB-2005 08:56:54.15  %%%%%%%%%%%$ Message from user INTERnet on SHAGGYB INTERnet ACP SSH Accept Request from Host: 80.53.255.44 Port: 3277  8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM   8-FEB-2005 08:57:00.10  %%%%%%%%%%%$ Message from user INTERnet on SHAGGYB INTERnet ACP SSH Accept Request from Host: 80.53.255.44 Port: 3391    ? The messages on the console are like this: (I am typing them ine& manually so there may be a few typos):  ' %%% OPCOM   8-FEB-2005  00:05:24.13 %%%-( Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on SHAGGYB Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on SHAGGY, system id: 10380+ Auditable event:  Network breakin detection % Event time:   08-FEB-2005 00:05:24.13e
 PID: 2020059Fh Process name: TCPIP$SS_BG2671k Username: TCPIP$SSH 8 Remote node fullname: SSH_PASSWORD:IS.TAKESAKOGUMI.CO.JP Remote username: SSH_3DC218BA>6 Status:  %LOGIN-F-NOTVALID, user authorization failure  D This is expected of course and I will have to figure out how to keepG these from filling up logs and emptying printers, etc. However, I wouldoC like to know why each of those messages is followed buy multiple ofa these:  % %%% OPCOM  8-FEB-2005 00:05:24.04 %%%s( Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on SHAGGY! Auditable event:  Object deletions5 Event information: File deletion request (IO$_DELETE) % Event time:   08-FEB-2005 00:05:24.04n
 PID: 202005A0t Process name: TCPIP$SSH_BG2675 Username: TCPIP$SSH>$ Process owner: [TCPIP$AUX,TCPIP$SSH]3 Image name: DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON][SYSEXE]DELETE.EXEh Object class name: File # Object owner: [TCPIP$AUX,TCPIP$SSH] < Object protection: SYSTEM:RWED, OWNER:RWED, GROUP:RE, WORLD:1 File name: _DSA0:[TCPIP$SSH]TCPIP$SSH_RUN.LOG;132p Access requested:  Deleteu Sequence key: 0062AAB53 Status:  %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflicti  > Each breakin message is followed by multiple of the ACCONFLICTA messages, but differing in file version numbers. For example, the-= messages following this one are for versions 131, 130, 129...(  
 Any ideas?   Thanks.M Bill McLaughlin.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:44:11 -0800$0 From: glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu># Subject: Re: VAX 4000 m500A problemc2 Message-ID: <cub8b8$3lp$1@gnus01.u.washington.edu>   Jay Maynard wrote:  L > (For the folks in comp.os.vms, I'm trying to get enough licenses installedI > so I can FTP over the entire hobbyist license PAK set. So far, I've got K > VAX-VMS, UCX, UCX-IP-CLIENT, and UCX-IP-RT loaded by hand, but I'd rather ! > not type them ALL in manually.)   ? If you are using a terminal as a console, especially a PC basedi8 terminal emulator, then you can cut/paste into a window.  : I suppose if you have a real VAX keyboard and display that
 doesn't work.s   -- glen8   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:27:47 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?a, Message-ID: <YsmdnTP2Faolj5TfRVn-qQ@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:- > In article <cuaqk6$qqm$1@naig.caltech.edu>,e+ > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:  >> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: E >>> http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316e >>>a >>< >> That's an easy one.  Because porting open source software@ >> to a moribund OS is not a particularly worthy goal and nobody< >> is going to give you very much credit for having done it. > @ > Not exactly true.  It would have to be examined like any other= > project, but I was successful in getting 4 porting projectsnA > approved by our faculty committee a few years ago.  I asked oneX@ > of the professors who has visited a number of other schools as> > a member of an ABET Acreditation Team and he assures me thatB > about 50% of colleges with CS programs (a higher % for acredited> > programs) have similar senior projects courses.  The biggestA > thing holding up projects like these is the lack of VMS systemsMA > in academia. (As soon as the electricians get my new power in IQ= > will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to thehD > students again.)  I look forward to trying to get some VMS porting? > projects in the works again.  The students are always looking @ > for something more meaningful than the typical doctor's office > Excel/Access billing system. >m >>B >> I used to do rather a lot of porting to OpenVMS and believe me,; >> my time is much better spent doing other things and justgA >> running the code as is on Linux.  When I work on code now it'sa= >> to make it faster or better,  not just to get it to run ino8 >> the first place on a platform that nobody in academia >> cares about or uses anymore.e > < > It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at least: > on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a: > course that still includes some COBOL programming and as= > long as that persists I will, at least, have enough supporta? > to keep VMS running in the department.  It is up to me to try > > and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines with? > real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must soundt? > funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting aboutt > pushing VMS in academia!! :-)e    L Push HP to give you some 'current' technology, like an Alpha or one of thoseK prototype IA64 boxes (they'll be making those until the pre-production line ! closes when Intel EOL's the cpu).a  3 Father: "So what did you do in CS class today, son?dK Son: "I got to work some goofy fossilized computer Professor Bill still has  hanging around the lab." Father: "Really? Which one?"; Son: "Something called WAX or VAX, or something like that."a) Father: "I used to program on those too."e* Son: "Like I said, some fossil. Slow too."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:07:51 -0800a' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> 5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?u+ Message-ID: <cub66o$1i4$1@naig.caltech.edu>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  5  > (As soon as the electricians get my new power in Is= > will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to thei > students again.)    A Killer VAXen???  Your cell phone probably has a faster processor.      > < > It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at least; > on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a r: > course that still includes some COBOL programming and as= > long as that persists I will, at least, have enough supportc( > to keep VMS running in the department.  . But why does Cobol imply VMS?  There are Cobol( compilers for other platforms, including8 ones the students already own (Windows, Linux).  Some of7 these compilers are free.  For instance, one can obtaine6 a free Fujitsu compiler that runs on Windows, Solaris,* and HPUX.  There are also commercial ones,B like Acucobol.  I have no idea how good any of these are, althoughB I'd expect that at least the Fujitsu offering is an industry grade	 compiler.    > It is up to me to tryb> > and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines with? > real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must soundr? > funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting about  > pushing VMS in academia!! :-)m  > No, the part that sounds funny is you pushing VMS to run Cobol@ instead of one of the IBM platforms.  Cobol is available for VMS? but all the Cobol programmers I know (including my wife) worked  on IBMs.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 20:35:39 GMTt( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? , Message-ID: <36sm4rF50hpurU1@individual.net>  , In article <YsmdnTP2Faolj5TfRVn-qQ@igs.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:. >> In article <cuaqk6$qqm$1@naig.caltech.edu>,, >> David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: >>> bob@instantwhip.com wrote:F >>>> http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316 >>>> >>>i= >>> That's an easy one.  Because porting open source softwareeA >>> to a moribund OS is not a particularly worthy goal and nobodyp= >>> is going to give you very much credit for having done it.d >>A >> Not exactly true.  It would have to be examined like any othero> >> project, but I was successful in getting 4 porting projectsB >> approved by our faculty committee a few years ago.  I asked oneA >> of the professors who has visited a number of other schools asa? >> a member of an ABET Acreditation Team and he assures me thatmC >> about 50% of colleges with CS programs (a higher % for acreditedr? >> programs) have similar senior projects courses.  The biggesteB >> thing holding up projects like these is the lack of VMS systemsB >> in academia. (As soon as the electricians get my new power in I> >> will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to theE >> students again.)  I look forward to trying to get some VMS portingn@ >> projects in the works again.  The students are always lookingA >> for something more meaningful than the typical doctor's officeb >> Excel/Access billing system.s >> >>>iC >>> I used to do rather a lot of porting to OpenVMS and believe me,[< >>> my time is much better spent doing other things and justB >>> running the code as is on Linux.  When I work on code now it's> >>> to make it faster or better,  not just to get it to run in9 >>> the first place on a platform that nobody in academiai  >>> cares about or uses anymore. >>= >> It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at leastb; >> on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches ae; >> course that still includes some COBOL programming and ase> >> long as that persists I will, at least, have enough support@ >> to keep VMS running in the department.  It is up to me to try? >> and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines withn@ >> real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must sound@ >> funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting about  >> pushing VMS in academia!! :-) >  > N > Push HP to give you some 'current' technology, like an Alpha or one of thoseM > prototype IA64 boxes (they'll be making those until the pre-production line # > closes when Intel EOL's the cpu).   B Actually, Compaq did give me an Alpha.  A small one, but adequate.? That was in the days when they actually seemed interested.  But4? interest seemed to dry up about the time of the merger.  I have @ had limited contact since then, but it seems I am mostly back on
 my own again.      > 5 > Father: "So what did you do in CS class today, son?eM > Son: "I got to work some goofy fossilized computer Professor Bill still has  > hanging around the lab." > Father: "Really? Which one?"= > Son: "Something called WAX or VAX, or something like that."D+ > Father: "I used to program on those too."0, > Son: "Like I said, some fossil. Slow too."  t; So tell me, how would the average user writing program in aa; high-level language (think under-grads here) even tell whaty> the architecture was?  Why would he care?  And I hardly expect9 that the 4 processor machines I have are going to be slowe: supporting only a small handful of students.  At it's peak; it will have maybe 15 simultaneous users runnging the COBOL 8 Compiler.  I think it will offer acceptable performance.  B And anyway, they are  hardly fossilized computers when compared to+ the PDP-11/44's standing next to them.  :-)   k bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:42:21 +0100W0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?xB Message-ID: <4209242d$0$18554$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>   David Mathog wrote:a > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 7 >  > (As soon as the electricians get my new power in In > > >> will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to the >> students again.)  n >  > C > Killer VAXen???  Your cell phone probably has a faster processor.  >  >  >>= >> It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at leastaH >> on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a course that / >> still includes some COBOL programming and asr> >> long as that persists I will, at least, have enough support) >> to keep VMS running in the department.h >  > 0 > But why does Cobol imply VMS?  There are Cobol* > compilers for other platforms, including: > ones the students already own (Windows, Linux).  Some of9 > these compilers are free.  For instance, one can obtaint8 > a free Fujitsu compiler that runs on Windows, Solaris,, > and HPUX.  There are also commercial ones,D > like Acucobol.  I have no idea how good any of these are, althoughD > I'd expect that at least the Fujitsu offering is an industry grade > compiler.n >  >> It is up to me to try? >> and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines with @ >> real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must sound@ >> funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting about  >> pushing VMS in academia!! :-) >  > @ > No, the part that sounds funny is you pushing VMS to run CobolB > instead of one of the IBM platforms.  Cobol is available for VMSA > but all the Cobol programmers I know (including my wife) workedl
 > on IBMs. > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu  ? Well, I work for IBM, however, I'm responsible for several CIM hH applications mostly programmed by us in COBOL (mixed with up to 3 other I languages in the same image) running on over one hundred OpenVMS Systems eH in factories all over (new and old) Europe. This is only one of several C customers I'm aware of using COBOL on OpenVMS. So I suppose it all iE depends on what part of the world you exist in, or of which you have   experienced.   Cheers!i   Keith CayembergK   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Feb 2005 20:50:11 GMT4( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? , Message-ID: <36sn03F54bfdeU1@individual.net>  + In article <cub66o$1i4$1@naig.caltech.edu>,e* 	David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 6 > > (As soon as the electricians get my new power in I> >> will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to the >> students again.)  e > C > Killer VAXen???  Your cell phone probably has a faster processor.r  A "Killer" when compared to the VAXen we have had in the departmentr in the past.  :-)s   >  >  >> a= >> It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at leasty< >> on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a ; >> course that still includes some COBOL programming and aso> >> long as that persists I will, at least, have enough support) >> to keep VMS running in the department.a > 0 > But why does Cobol imply VMS?  There are Cobol* > compilers for other platforms, including3 > ones the students already own (Windows, Linux).     > Windows compilers are expensive and frequently lack particular? features needed for the course.  I am working very hard to keep * the Linux garbage out of my computer room.  : >                                                  Some of9 > these compilers are free.  For instance, one can obtain-8 > a free Fujitsu compiler that runs on Windows, Solaris,
 > and HPUX.  s  @ I looked at it quite some time ago.  It wasn't of much real use.  , >            There are also commercial ones,D > like Acucobol.  I have no idea how good any of these are, althoughD > I'd expect that at least the Fujitsu offering is an industry grade > compiler.e  @ The commercial ones are too expensive and the "Free" Fujitsu oneE (unless it has changed) was a student edition and seriously crippled.   B Interesting that someone here is busy trying to convince me not toC use VMS and suggesting Windows and linux.  The use of COBOL is just C a "foot int he door" thing.  As long as the VMS version is the best-B solution for the task I get to keep VMS in the department (as long as it has a zero cost).(     >  >> It is up to me to try? >> and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines withn@ >> real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must sound@ >> funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting about  >> pushing VMS in academia!! :-) > @ > No, the part that sounds funny is you pushing VMS to run Cobol  E As I said above, it is the use of COBOL that lets me keep VMS around.>D We have looked at some of the "free" COBOL for Unix systems and theyE have all proven to be too buggy for any real use.  VMS COBOL is a "noaG additional cost" solution.  At least at the moment.  That could change.   B > instead of one of the IBM platforms.  Cobol is available for VMSA > but all the Cobol programmers I know (including my wife) workedt
 > on IBMs.  G Yeah, I have done COBOL on IBM's, Univacs, Primes, PDP's, VAXen as welldF as numerous Microcomputers.  Actually, it is probably the one languageD that can truly claim portability between a large number of differentD systems.  I always enjoyed working with it and hope they continue toE use it here so the students get at least a little exposure to it.  Itr  is not going away any time soon.   bill   -- MJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:49:12 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?eB Message-ID: <1107902272.c58642bfec44cbcdee9a6ec53b39c8a9@teranews>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:@ > Not exactly true.  It would have to be examined like any other= > project, but I was successful in getting 4 porting projectss4 > approved by our faculty committee a few years ago.    @ At a bank, I was, for long time, prevented from buying a $6000 CG compiler. Reason being that since VMS was not strategic, no developmentcH should be done to it, especially since the bank was spending $300,000 onH a STUDY to replace the VMS systems. When that study failed, the bank wasH forced to instiutute a disaster recoivery plan for this mission criticalL system (SWIFT funds transfers). For a while, the purse was easy to dip into.  E However, the day SWIFT announced it was widthdrawing support for VMS,hG the bank again froze all development on that system since it would have F to be replaced as soon as possible. (that ended up taking years before? the unix software had the same functionality as the old ST400).n  D During those years, Digital/Compaq still saw maintenance revenus, soE they may have considered that customer safe even though the decisionstF had been taken to dump the VMS systems. And yes, Sun got the business.F Even though its disaster recovery scheme was nowhere as good as what IF had setup, it was good enough and besides the bank had no choice since' VMS was no longer a solution for SWIFT.n  E When a company decides that a system is to be disposed of eventually,sD don't expect it to be easy to obtain anything to improve that systemF during that period. The grunts at the low level do see these decisionsL being taken, but the folks at HP/compaq/Digital don't, until it is too late.  F So when someone reports here that they are not allowed to buy an extraE disk drive for a VMS system, HP employees should see this as an earlynE warning of an impending loss of customer and intervene to try to savee9 the account before the replacement system is implemented.v  @ You can't salvage an account the day the customer  doesn't renewE maintenance contract since that happens when the cutsomer already hasu& the replacement system in production.   F The story of VMS is very similar to that of IBM. In his book "Who saysG elephants can't dance", Gerstner outlines how he had to drive employees H not to accept loss of an account and fight hard to keep accounts and winE new sales, instead of just pushing papers to process orders that comes9 from loyal customers whom IBM never feared losing before.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:47:40 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>b5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?e, Message-ID: <Ru2dnVWzKKcM3JTfRVn-qQ@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:- > In article <cub66o$1i4$1@naig.caltech.edu>,e+ > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:p >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:A >>6 >>> (As soon as the electricians get my new power in I? >>> will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to the  >>> students again.) >>D >> Killer VAXen???  Your cell phone probably has a faster processor. >rC > "Killer" when compared to the VAXen we have had in the departmentn > in the past.  :-)u >o >> >> >>>o> >>> It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at least< >>> on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a< >>> course that still includes some COBOL programming and as? >>> long as that persists I will, at least, have enough supports* >>> to keep VMS running in the department. >>1 >> But why does Cobol imply VMS?  There are CobolS+ >> compilers for other platforms, includingt2 >> ones the students already own (Windows, Linux). >L@ > Windows compilers are expensive and frequently lack particularA > features needed for the course.  I am working very hard to keep , > the Linux garbage out of my computer room.    I I can see it now....Bill as Monty Python's 'Black Knight' standing at the 5 computer room door saying "No Linux shall pass".  :-)   F Or perhaps in 9999 A.D. when somebody is worried about the Y10K crisisK they'll break into the ruin of the CS building just to find Bill's skeletontL chained to the door of the server room and the VAXcluster still working away inside the room.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:27:20 -0500' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>e5 Subject: RE: Why aren't more universities doing this?,R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F1CD@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: David Mathog [mailto:mathog@caltech.edu]=20   > Sent: February 8, 2005 3:08 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 7 > Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?h >=20  	 [snip ..]@   >=20@ > No, the part that sounds funny is you pushing VMS to run CobolB > instead of one of the IBM platforms.  Cobol is available for VMSA > but all the Cobol programmers I know (including my wife) worked 
 > on IBMs. >=20
 > Regards, >=20 > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu >=20   David,  G Actually Cobol has a very big presence in the OpenVMS environment. LotsoH of home grown mission critical business applications exist and are beingF actively upgraded today.  I did a very large very mission critical VAXH to Alpha conversion project last year and the Customer applications were
 95% Cobol.  A What these Customers are asking today is not how to replace theserG applications (throwing away investment in 10-20 years business logic is-@ ludicrous), but rather how to web enable and/or expose the CobolE business logic to other environments based on either J2EE or .Net.=20,  H As far as learning Cobol goes, check out the following May 2003 article:3 http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1237807,00.asp % "Is COBOL the 18-Wheeler of the Web?"   F "Can a person build a 21st-century IT career on this 1960s foundation?D Well, foundations are better than shifting sands. Legacy Reserves, aE databank for over-35 IT pros, cites Gartner estimates that retirement B and death will shrink the population of working COBOL coders by 13? percent between 2002 and 2006, even while 15 percent of all newoC applications are being written in the language--and quotes the GIGAaF Group as predicting that "The most highly paid programmers in the nextC ten years are going to be COBOL programmers who know the Internet."g   [snip..]     Also, check out:(May 2001)H http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/training/story/0,10801 ,60683,00.html0 "Remember Cobol? If You Don't, Get Reacquainted"  H "In spite of its reputation, Cobol remains a resilient force in IT. DaleF Vecchio, research director at Gartner Inc., says there are roughly 180C billion lines of Cobol worldwide. This isn't surprising, given thattC Cobol has been around for more than 40 years. What is surprising is E Gartner's comment in a February research note stating that 15% of alla= new application functionality through 2005 will be in Cobol."    [snip..]   Regardsa  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:09:02 -0800a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>r5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?t( Message-ID: <opslwn5ciyzgicya@hyrrokkin>  E On 8 Feb 2005 18:41:01 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:e   Bill,s  @ I would be pleased to donate a PL/I license so your students can6 see how a real programming language works and behaves.   Tomg  - > In article <cuaqk6$qqm$1@naig.caltech.edu>, , > 	David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: >> bob@instantwhip.com wrote:mE >>> http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316i >>>i >>< >> That's an easy one.  Because porting open source software@ >> to a moribund OS is not a particularly worthy goal and nobody< >> is going to give you very much credit for having done it. > @ > Not exactly true.  It would have to be examined like any other= > project, but I was successful in getting 4 porting projectsoA > approved by our faculty committee a few years ago.  I asked onef@ > of the professors who has visited a number of other schools as> > a member of an ABET Acreditation Team and he assures me thatB > about 50% of colleges with CS programs (a higher % for acredited> > programs) have similar senior projects courses.  The biggestA > thing holding up projects like these is the lack of VMS systemsuA > in academia. (As soon as the electricians get my new power in Id= > will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to theCD > students again.)  I look forward to trying to get some VMS porting? > projects in the works again.  The students are always lookingm@ > for something more meaningful than the typical doctor's office > Excel/Access billing system. >p >>B >> I used to do rather a lot of porting to OpenVMS and believe me,; >> my time is much better spent doing other things and justdA >> running the code as is on Linux.  When I work on code now it'sH= >> to make it faster or better,  not just to get it to run in 8 >> the first place on a platform that nobody in academia >> cares about or uses anymore.O >r< > It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at least: > on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a: > course that still includes some COBOL programming and as= > long as that persists I will, at least, have enough supportr? > to keep VMS running in the department.  It is up to me to trya> > and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines with? > real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must sounde? > funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting aboutw > pushing VMS in academia!! :-)i >l > bill >        -- eC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:13:15 -0800V# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>-5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?0( Message-ID: <opslwocdnazgicya@hyrrokkin>  E On 8 Feb 2005 20:35:39 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:c  . > In article <YsmdnTP2Faolj5TfRVn-qQ@igs.net>,( > 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:D/ >>> In article <cuaqk6$qqm$1@naig.caltech.edu>,0- >>> David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:e >>>> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: G >>>>> http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316t >>>>>s >>>>> >>>> That's an easy one.  Because porting open source softwareB >>>> to a moribund OS is not a particularly worthy goal and nobody> >>>> is going to give you very much credit for having done it. >>>]B >>> Not exactly true.  It would have to be examined like any other? >>> project, but I was successful in getting 4 porting projects,C >>> approved by our faculty committee a few years ago.  I asked one B >>> of the professors who has visited a number of other schools as@ >>> a member of an ABET Acreditation Team and he assures me thatD >>> about 50% of colleges with CS programs (a higher % for acredited@ >>> programs) have similar senior projects courses.  The biggestC >>> thing holding up projects like these is the lack of VMS systemseC >>> in academia. (As soon as the electricians get my new power in Ia? >>> will have a couple of killer VAXen to make available to the-F >>> students again.)  I look forward to trying to get some VMS portingA >>> projects in the works again.  The students are always lookinggB >>> for something more meaningful than the typical doctor's office  >>> Excel/Access billing system. >>>  >>>>D >>>> I used to do rather a lot of porting to OpenVMS and believe me,= >>>> my time is much better spent doing other things and just:C >>>> running the code as is on Linux.  When I work on code now it's9? >>>> to make it faster or better,  not just to get it to run inu: >>>> the first place on a platform that nobody in academia! >>>> cares about or uses anymore.t >>> > >>> It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at least< >>> on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches a< >>> course that still includes some COBOL programming and as? >>> long as that persists I will, at least, have enough supporteA >>> to keep VMS running in the department.  It is up to me to tryI@ >>> and expand that usage and once I have a couple machines withA >>> real performance I will get back to work on that. (Must soundlA >>> funny having the groups biggest Unix defender wrtitting aboutP! >>> pushing VMS in academia!! :-)  >> >>K >> Push HP to give you some 'current' technology, like an Alpha or one of  t >> thoseK >> prototype IA64 boxes (they'll be making those until the pre-production  0 >> linem$ >> closes when Intel EOL's the cpu). >mD > Actually, Compaq did give me an Alpha.  A small one, but adequate.A > That was in the days when they actually seemed interested.  But.A > interest seemed to dry up about the time of the merger.  I have B > had limited contact since then, but it seems I am mostly back on > my own again.d >c >o >>6 >> Father: "So what did you do in CS class today, son?L >> Son: "I got to work some goofy fossilized computer Professor Bill still   >> has >> hanging around the lab."s >> Father: "Really? Which one?"h> >> Son: "Something called WAX or VAX, or something like that.", >> Father: "I used to program on those too."- >> Son: "Like I said, some fossil. Slow too."c= > So tell me, how would the average user writing program in ar= > high-level language (think under-grads here) even tell whato@ > the architecture was?  Why would he care?  And I hardly expect; > that the 4 processor machines I have are going to be slow < > supporting only a small handful of students.  At it's peak= > it will have maybe 15 simultaneous users runnging the COBOLi: > Compiler.  I think it will offer acceptable performance. > D > And anyway, they are  hardly fossilized computers when compared to- > the PDP-11/44's standing next to them.  :-)h > bill >c Bill  L I would be pleased to provide you with a PL/I license so your students can   seemL how a real sophisticated programming language works and behaves.  Write me   offlinet if you want a pak.   Tomd     -- tC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:16:32 -0800f# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?r( Message-ID: <opslwohulzzgicya@hyrrokkin>  I On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:27:20 -0500, Main, Kerry <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote:u   >N >n >> -----Original Message-----A1 >> From: David Mathog [mailto:mathog@caltech.edu] ! >> Sent: February 8, 2005 3:08 PM5 >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com8 >> Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? >> >m > [snip ..]2 >4 >>A >> No, the part that sounds funny is you pushing VMS to run Cobol%C >> instead of one of the IBM platforms.  Cobol is available for VMSsB >> but all the Cobol programmers I know (including my wife) worked >> on IBMs.1 >> >> Regards,e >> >> David Mathogn >> mathog@caltech.eduA >> >A > David, > I > Actually Cobol has a very big presence in the OpenVMS environment. LotseJ > of home grown mission critical business applications exist and are beingH > actively upgraded today.  I did a very large very mission critical VAXJ > to Alpha conversion project last year and the Customer applications were > 95% Cobol.   Same is true for PL/I, BTW.a > C > What these Customers are asking today is not how to replace theserI > applications (throwing away investment in 10-20 years business logic isSB > ludicrous), but rather how to web enable and/or expose the CobolD > business logic to other environments based on either J2EE or .Net. >oJ > As far as learning Cobol goes, check out the following May 2003 article:5 > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1237807,00.aspt' > "Is COBOL the 18-Wheeler of the Web?"o > H > "Can a person build a 21st-century IT career on this 1960s foundation?F > Well, foundations are better than shifting sands. Legacy Reserves, aG > databank for over-35 IT pros, cites Gartner estimates that retirementFD > and death will shrink the population of working COBOL coders by 13A > percent between 2002 and 2006, even while 15 percent of all newaE > applications are being written in the language--and quotes the GIGA H > Group as predicting that "The most highly paid programmers in the nextE > ten years are going to be COBOL programmers who know the Internet."; >p
 > [snip..] >t >  > Also, check out:(May 2001)J > http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/training/story/0,10801 > ,60683,00.html2 > "Remember Cobol? If You Don't, Get Reacquainted" >nJ > "In spite of its reputation, Cobol remains a resilient force in IT. DaleH > Vecchio, research director at Gartner Inc., says there are roughly 180E > billion lines of Cobol worldwide. This isn't surprising, given that0E > Cobol has been around for more than 40 years. What is surprising is4G > Gartner's comment in a February research note stating that 15% of all ? > new application functionality through 2005 will be in Cobol."  >g
 > [snip..] >s	 > Regardsd >  > Kerry Main > Senior Consultants > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660M > Fax: 613-591-4477, > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT)y >t& > "OpenVMS has always had integrity ..  > Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."       -- aC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/u   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 21:57:39 -0500# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>-5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?h, Message-ID: <58idnc7ECJ0445TfRVn-3A@igs.net>   Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message-----m" >> From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.eduB >> [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon! >> Sent: February 8, 2005 3:50 PM  >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com8 >> Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? >> >0 > [snip...]1 >  >>>>? >>>> It's usually a fight, but I still try to keep VMS at least = >>>> on the horizon here.  I have one professor who teaches ay= >>>> course that still includes some COBOL programming and as @ >>>> long as that persists I will, at least, have enough support+ >>>> to keep VMS running in the department.g >>>r >g > Bill,n > E > The more I think about it, the more I feel a "web enabling" / CoboltB > integration class would be a great class for senior CS students. >oH > Given the stated retirements of many Cobol programmers, the huge, hugeA > installed base of Cobol today, combined with the requirement tolG > integrate this business logic into other environments, I can not helpeF > but think many large banks, insurance, financial companies etc wouldD > absolutely drool over someone who was comfortable with integrating$ > Cobol into J2EE/.Net environments. >n > Just a thought ..     K Got any big open source Cobol or open source PL/1 apps that need porting toaH VMS in mind? Then Bill could get a free Itanic for his school by getting those ported and web enabled.s   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.079 ************************time is much better spent doing other things and justgA >> running the code as is on Linux.  When I work on code now it'sa= 