0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 11 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 83      Contents:P Re: Bets being taken on Itanic survival [was] Re: HP's Carly Fiorina  fired  fir Decwindows resource names  Re: Decwindows resource names  Re: Decwindows resource names  Re: Decwindows resource names  Re: Decwindows resource names  Re: DVE and maximum file count fonts used by java applets Re: grep on openVMS?
 HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: Intrusion attempts- Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... ( Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250( Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $2500 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar0 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar0 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar0 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar( RE: So how big a parachute did she have?( Re: So how big a parachute did she have?( Re: So how big a parachute did she have?( Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem/ Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ? / Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ? , Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?, Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:35:24 +0100 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>Y Subject: Re: Bets being taken on Itanic survival [was] Re: HP's Carly Fiorina  fired  fir @ Message-ID: <420bb77c$0$820$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > John Smith wrote:  >  >>Colin Butcher wrote: >>, >>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21175 >>M >>Now that the financial guy is in charge on an interim basis, as an agent of K >>change, and has an intimate understanding of what really costs what - are N >>there any takers that HP will step away from Itanic, and possibly enterprise >>computing altogether?  >  > E > Enterprise is about the only place where HP makes any decent profit   G I suppose you were classifying the prin... Uhhh ink business as making   an "indecent" profit.  :-)  = Don't look now, but your good moral judgement is showing. :-)      Cheers!    Keith    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:38:56 -0600 ' From: "Tom M" <kryios@spam.comcast.net> " Subject: Decwindows resource names0 Message-ID: <krSdnf0RBsToYpbfRVn-iw@comcast.com>  C Where can I find the valid resource names for individual Decwindows  applications (i.e. Decterm)?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:41:07 -0500 - From: Jf Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names, Message-ID: <420C0D26.3A8030FC@teksavvy.com>   Tom M wrote: > E > Where can I find the valid resource names for individual Decwindows  > applications (i.e. Decterm)?  J You have to bribe one of the engineers in charge of decwindows/decterm....  G Over the years,there have been tidbits released about various resources 1 so Google on comp.os.vms may give you some hints.   H I guess looking at the image might reveal some list of resources. Do you, have specific resources you want to change ?  F I recently asked about making the vertical scroll bar narrower, but itA seems that the va;lue is hardcoded and no rousrce will change it.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:46:55 -0600 ' From: "Tom M" <kryios@spam.comcast.net> & Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names0 Message-ID: <ccadnTYjbIv1kpHfRVn-tA@comcast.com>  : "Jf Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message& news:420C0D26.3A8030FC@teksavvy.com... > Tom M wrote: > > G > > Where can I find the valid resource names for individual Decwindows   > > applications (i.e. Decterm)? > L > You have to bribe one of the engineers in charge of decwindows/decterm.... > I > Over the years,there have been tidbits released about various resources 3 > so Google on comp.os.vms may give you some hints.  > J > I guess looking at the image might reveal some list of resources. Do you. > have specific resources you want to change ? > H > I recently asked about making the vertical scroll bar narrower, but itC > seems that the va;lue is hardcoded and no rousrce will change it.   F I wanted to change the color of the vertical scroll bar.  I change theK background color for the decterm based on the system I'm connecting to, but ) the scroll bar remains the default color.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:50:25 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names+ Message-ID: <420C1D5F.ADDEC88@teksavvy.com>    Tom M wrote:  H > I wanted to change the color of the vertical scroll bar.  I change theM > background color for the decterm based on the system I'm connecting to, but + > the scroll bar remains the default color.   0 You can find all resources for a XmScrollBar at:  2 http://www.vaxination.ca/motif/XmScrollBaA_3X.html  G I think you need to remove the Xm prefix when you specify a resource in F a .dat file.  make sure you edit the right decw$terminal_defaults.dat.Q On my system, decw$terminal is confised between sys$login and decw$user_defaults:    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:35:27 -0600 ' From: "Tom M" <kryios@spam.comcast.net> & Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names0 Message-ID: <2dWdnXSbq6tKtZHfRVn-ug@comcast.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message% news:420C1D5F.ADDEC88@teksavvy.com...  > Tom M wrote: > J > > I wanted to change the color of the vertical scroll bar.  I change theK > > background color for the decterm based on the system I'm connecting to,  but - > > the scroll bar remains the default color.  > 2 > You can find all resources for a XmScrollBar at: > 4 > http://www.vaxination.ca/motif/XmScrollBaA_3X.html > I > I think you need to remove the Xm prefix when you specify a resource in H > a .dat file.  make sure you edit the right decw$terminal_defaults.dat.? > On my system, decw$terminal is confised between sys$login and  decw$user_defaults:   ! Thank You.  I'll give that a try.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2005 13:59:41 -0800$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org>' Subject: Re: DVE and maximum file count C Message-ID: <1108072781.751596.273880@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    Hi Rob,   D I originally saw Chris's question in e-mail so I responded that way.G My application isn't actualy worse than that, but I can't initialize my B volumes with a maximum file count taking into account the growth IE need.  In other words, I can't initialize a 9GB volume with a maximum D file count of 25 million files and grow into that.    With a clusterC size of 8,  I can't get more than just under 2 million files on the E disk.  If I don't start with a big volume, I can't grow into a bigger D volume.  I feel like I'm artificially trapped by the init procedure.E Google wants to wrap the darn commands below, but starting with a 9GB F volume that I want to grow to 25M files, I can't use /limit/cluster=8.G Without the /limit, I an get 1.9M files, hardly what I want to grow to. E  I believe that 25M files is a reasonable number (provided my volumes  stay well under 50GB).  E Audrey> INIT 2$DUA788/MAXIMUM_FILES=25000000/HEADER=25000000/DIRE=200  FOO/clu=8/limit 0 %INIT-F-ALLOCFAIL, index file allocation failureF Audrey> INIT $2$DUA788/MAXIMUM_FILES=25000000/HEADER=25000000/DIRE=200	 FOO/clu=8 E [I'd argue that the command should generate an error if it doesn't do 4 what you tell it to, but that's not the issue today]% Audrey> mou/over=id $2$dua788 foo foo 5 %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, FOO mounted on _$2$DUA788: (CICERO) - Audrey> say f$getdvi("$2$dua788:","maxfiles")  1973816    Cheers,      ..../Ed    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2005 20:19:23 -06004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)# Subject: fonts used by java applets 3 Message-ID: <uLUnMxEjwwha@eisner.encompasserve.org>   A I have a question regarding fonts used by applets launched by web  browsers.     C In this case I'm launching an applet from CSWB 1.4 on VMS 7.3-2 and @ Motif 1.3-1 and it looks horrible.  The text is overlapping, theE button text exceeds the button size, etc.  The same applet looks fine = if done from a M$ box, but what good is that in the long run?   F Is there some way I can "import" M$ fonts to make this applet readable on my VMS box?  E P.S. It's not my applet, and the tech support for those that wrote it C say use a M$ platform and all will be well.   HA!  Not in my world!    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:16:26 -0800  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? + Message-ID: <inPOd.56700$lO7.2848@fe07.lga>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote:A > for first time users it is not the way your brain works!  I can F > sit a new user or programmer down at vms and with little instruction? > and the help facilities he is productive the first day ... in 8 > unix land it is the opposite and is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!   I don't know why.   = You can use grep with standard expresions, just like $SEARCH.   H Regular expression get you so much more ... Start of Line, End of Line, & user-defined patterns and ranges, etc.  I I suspect that if $SEARCH had regular expressions, a lot of posters here  G would be touting that as a powerful feature (which it is), rather than   dismissing it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:24:36 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: HP should...., Message-ID: <-c2dnQT5D8m5QpbfRVn-uA@igs.net>   1) Relaunch Alpha % 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so $ 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha% 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD " 5) Advertise, Advertise, AdvertiseF 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:26:53 -0500 - From: Jf Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <420C09D0.795A5F42@teksavvy.com>   John Smith wrote:  >  > 1) Relaunch Alpha   E Out of curiosity, if relaunch were to happen, would relaunching Alpha 4 have any serious advantage over relaunching PaRisc ?  ' > 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD   G No need to "dump Intel". HP should simply have its own strategy instead G of following what Microsoft and Intel. It doesn't mean that HP needs to 6 stop buying from Intel if Intel has superior products.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:19:31 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <etWdnVwuQsq5lZHfRVn-pw@metrocastcablevision.com>    John Smith wrote:  > 1) Relaunch Alpha ' > 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so & > 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha' > 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD $ > 5) Advertise, Advertise, AdvertiseH > 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX.  G 1.  No:  that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if  I all the engineers could have been retrieved.  You just can't add 2 years  C (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a  F leader (just look at how Itanic fared:  if McKinley had been released I even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with  B no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no 4 fast-pathing of their development could occur either) 2.  Some, but not for the purpose of (1).  3.  No. D 4.  At least somewhat, though AMD probably couldn't meet HP's needs  without help from Intel. 5.  Yes. 6.  Yes.  G 7.  You forgot the minor matter of product development (or more to the  E point HP's lack of same over the past few years).  Storage, OSs, ...  E Just as Alpha is no longer competitive, or even revivable, after too  F lengthy a period of neglect, so other HP core technologies are highly  threatened.   D Carly may actually have succeeded in sinking HP beyond recovery, at E least anything resembling the force that HP used to represent in the  	 industry.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:09:25 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....( Message-ID: <opsl0f9zy0zgicya@hyrrokkin>  H On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:19:31 -0500, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>   wrote:   > John Smith wrote:  >> 1) Relaunch Alpha( >> 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so' >> 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha ( >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD% >> 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise I >> 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX.  > J > 1.  No:  that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if  L > all the engineers could have been retrieved.  You just can't add 2 years  F > (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a  I > leader (just look at how Itanic fared:  if McKinley had been released   L > even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with  E > no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no   6 > fast-pathing of their development could occur either+ > 2.  Some, but not for the purpose of (1). 	 > 3.  No. G > 4.  At least somewhat, though AMD probably couldn't meet HP's needs    > without help from Intel.
 > 5.  Yes.
 > 6.  Yes. > J > 7.  You forgot the minor matter of product development (or more to the  H > point HP's lack of same over the past few years).  Storage, OSs, ...  H > Just as Alpha is no longer competitive, or even revivable, after too  I > lengthy a period of neglect, so other HP core technologies are highly   
 > threatened.  > G > Carly may actually have succeeded in sinking HP beyond recovery, at   H > least anything resembling the force that HP used to represent in the   > industry.  >  > - bill  K Looking at it from the point of view of finding a vehicle to deliver VMS,    thatJ is reasonably competitive (doesn't have to be the fastest) and finding a   partner G to procure that vehicle who you believe will continue developing that    vehicle and L has the where-with-all to accomplish it, leads you to selecting two, three  
 suppliers.J You port VMS to the Power chip and Opteron/Pentium.  The ongoing cost of  
 sustainingG Alpha is prohibitive, particularly since you can't amortise it over a   
 large run.  F This also gives flexibility, as we used to have, by demanding second   sources.  The realJ value in the Digital component of HP is VMS, Alpha has lost all its value.   --  C Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:59:23 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <420C1F79.C7E4286B@teksavvy.com>   Tom Linden wrote:  >  The real L > value in the Digital component of HP is VMS, Alpha has lost all its value.  D There is one aspect of Alpha: installed base and available software,B much of which is no longer developped and thus not be available onF Alpha's successor. Continuing the Alpha processor ratins that softwareE whereas moving to a new platform requires VMS start from scratch with  software availability.  G Note that this is also a reason HP-UX customers are still buying PaRisc H based machines instead of that unwanted IA64 thing. But VMS is in a much9 worse shape than HP-UX in terms of application ecosystem.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:46:06 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <Ddidne5XeZfit5HfRVn-qA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote:  >  >> 1) Relaunch Alpha( >> 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so' >> 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha ( >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD% >> 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise I >> 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX.  >  > I > 1.  No:  that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if  K > all the engineers could have been retrieved.  You just can't add 2 years  E > (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a  H > leader (just look at how Itanic fared:  if McKinley had been released K > even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with  D > no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no 6 > fast-pathing of their development could occur either+ > 2.  Some, but not for the purpose of (1). 	 > 3.  No. F > 4.  At least somewhat, though AMD probably couldn't meet HP's needs  > without help from Intel.
 > 5.  Yes.
 > 6.  Yes. > I > 7.  You forgot the minor matter of product development (or more to the  G > point HP's lack of same over the past few years).  Storage, OSs, ...  G > Just as Alpha is no longer competitive, or even revivable, after too  H > lengthy a period of neglect, so other HP core technologies are highly 
 > threatened.  > F > Carly may actually have succeeded in sinking HP beyond recovery, at G > least anything resembling the force that HP used to represent in the   > industry.   I OK - it's not entirely fair to be so dismissive without coming up with a  G counter-proposal (unless there's just no hope at all, which is not yet  F clear).  So here's my take (not that anyone in any position to act is  likely to be listening to it):  F HP will never regain the proprietary hardware advantages that PA-RISC H and Alpha gave it:  as I noted above, far too much time has gone by for E either architecture to regain a leadership position in the industry.  I EV7, for example, has roughly half the SPECint and SPECfp performance of  H the current industry leaders, and even if aggressively upgraded to EV79 I would significantly trail what the competition has today, let alone what  F they'll have when such an upgrade could ship.  EV8 could of course do E better, but would still likely trail a bit by the time it could ship.   G The only way to regain a leadership position in processors would be to  C come up with something new (at least as new as Cell, for example -  F though it's not clear that Cell would do the job).  And it's arguable H that by the time something new could be developed (end of the decade at I the earliest) a leadership position in processors may not count for that  G much:  the industry is already having difficulty coming up with useful  C processor-specific things to do with the die area on its processor  E chips, and the 'memory wall' continues to dilute the value of higher  + processor performance in many applications.   C HP could still provide Alpha with the limited upgrades which *are*  F feasible, to support its remaining customer base (such as it may be). @ And in any event it should promise to sell Alphas (at something E resembling reasonable prices) as long as customers wish to buy them.  I But that's a relatively short-term fix:  Alpha's OSs need something more  F permanent in order to be perceived as long-term viable rather than on  the way out.  D And of course that does nothing to address the HP-UX customer base, B which (especially now) is likely considerably larger than Alpha's.  @ Lousy decision though it was, by now depending on Itanic as the H longer-term hardware platform for all these OSs may be a fait accompli. F   With its significant power reductions Montecito has become at least E reasonable to consider for this purpose:  not what things could have  > been, but perhaps the best that can be done as things now are.  C There remains the concern about just how committed Intel may be to  D future Itanic development, however:  at a minimum, Itanic processor G pricing seems likely to remain high and its performance no better than  I x86-64 equivalents over the next few years.  The cheapest insurance (and  G with side-benefits as well) against problems here would be to port VMS  D and Tru64 to x86-64 (whether the latter is also ported to Itanic or I not); this is not as viable an option for HP-UX, since it's a big-endian  > environment, so Itanic may be the only realistic answer there.  
 Alternatives?   G 1.  Plow a fair amount of money into temporarily extending the life of  H both Alpha and PA-RISC while developing a new processor to replace them H both.  But what will make that processor (developed at impressive cost, H regardless of how good it might be) better than its market competition? C   Even Alpha had some difficulty staying convincingly ahead of x86  B performance by the late '90s, for example - and by the time a new F architecture could ship, it seems likely that existing ones will have G incorporated most of the significant features it could boast of (since  E the percentage of die space dedicated to processor cores seems to be  F shrinking fast, incorporating everything, including the kitchen sink, % into them becomes increasingly easy).   H 2.  Port the OSs somewhere else.  This might be fairly easy for VMS and G even Tru64, though perhaps harder for HP-UX (since Itanic was designed  H with its needs in mind).  POWER is certainly impressive, but owned by a I direct competitor.  x86-64 is attractive, but would still entail porting  F expenses and delays (Itanic could help the OSs ride out the delay, or H continuations of Alpha and PA-RISC could - but, as noted above, there's H also the endian question for HP-UX).  SPARC is also competitor-related, I and while it may be a good platform for vendors who are already on it it  E isn't as attractive for new vendors to move to.  Partnering with AMD  I would be contrarian and exciting, but given the direction Intel seems to  H be moving (in terms of incorporating significant elements of the system F architecture into the chips using at least part of the expertise that G the Alpha team brought with them, come 2007 or so) might not offer any  G real advantage over Intel's 2007 and later x86 products (i.e., I think  F that working with *both* Intel and AMD and using the best each has to  offer makes sense).   F 3.  Get out of the proprietary OS market.  That was the Carly & Curly H vision, and they managed to sabotage the viability of the other options F pretty thoroughly.  But I submit that this approach effectively cedes G enterprise business almost entirely (save possibly for storage and, if  I HP managed to execute a full about-face in its attitudes toward quality,  G some services):  HP still has major strengths in system expertise that  : it could leverage profitably, and I think it should do so.    B OK:  so HP should return to aggressively pursuing its proprietary H advantages in system hardware and OSs (though without abandoning Linux, G and even supplying and supporting Windows where that makes sense).  It  I should port VMS to x86-64 both as insurance and to increase its exposure  I and applicability.  It should port Tru64 to *both* Itanic and x86-64 for  I the same reasons, plus as clear evidence of its change in direction.  It  A should devote significant resources not only to marketing but to  @ developing its proprietary OSs, including reasonable efforts at G convergence - again, both for competitive reasons and to provide clear  H evidence of its new direction.  Part of this should include significant F innovation at the file-system level (as Sun has done with its new ZFS G file system) - and not only because that's my primary area of personal  	 interest.   C It should extend its OS expertise into PC systems, as DEC at least  G started to do - e.g., make clustering PCs something other than a joke,  H and extend the file-system work I mentioned above to include them.  The G company that controls the data controls the world, which is one reason  H why Microsoft is shooting for more lock-in with its new file system for I Longhorn (not that those shots have necessarily come close to the target  F yet):  while any PC file system extensions HP might create could (and F probably should) be available for anyone to use, the integration with C HP's higher-end systems would constitute a significant proprietary  
 advantage.  G It should revitalize its storage R&D efforts, since between the DECpaq  H and original HP storage groups it had much of the cream of the industry B and could get at least some of it involved again if they could be G convinced it was serious.  It should get its service organization into  G shape rather than seeing just how much of its work can be accomplished  0 (at least sort-of) via satellite links to India.  = It should do with its PC division what IBM used to:  partner  E intelligently, ship a quality product, and provide one-stop shopping  D (and service) as a convenience at prices just high enough to make a G modest profit, rather than try to compete tooth and nail with Dell and   the Asian white-box makers.   F If HP actually became an exciting company again the industry would be B excited (and receptive) too, because it really wants a *credible* I alternative to IBM and there's no one around providing one (though if HP  2 fails to, Sun may pick up that mantle by default).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:13:27 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110obmv65roca98@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote:  >  >> 1) Relaunch Alpha( >> 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so' >> 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha ( >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD% >> 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise I >> 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX.  >  > I > 1.  No:  that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if  K > all the engineers could have been retrieved.  You just can't add 2 years  E > (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a  H > leader (just look at how Itanic fared:  if McKinley had been released K > even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with  D > no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no 6 > fast-pathing of their development could occur either  H I'd dispute that, from a certain perspective.  If by relaunch one would I mean jump back into it at the point it was in 2001, no, that wouldn't be  F so good due to lost time.  EV8's time is now and the near future, and B EV8 doesn't exist, and probably couldn't exist in that time frame.  H Not that that would be a total dog since EV7 even now is still a viable G platform for today's users.  As part of a solution, evolving EV7 a bit  D would help with business today.  But, you're selling to the already F captive audience for the most part.  Acquiring new customers when the I competition is Power5+ with a 3+ year lead would be rather tough, from a  H performance perspective.  VMS and T64 would possibly be some advantage. 3   But you have to ask, where are the T64 engineers?   H Saying that getting back into the CPU arena is not feasible is the same E as saying that all the possible CPU manufacturers already exist, and  H someone new, with adequate talent and capitol couldn't become a player. G   That I won't believe.  What would be required would be spending some  ? time to come up with a product in say 3-4 years which would be  C competitive with where Power will be in 3-4 years, and where Alpha  ( 'could' have possibly been in 3-4 years.  E The list of possibilities isn't small.  One could take a look at the  F 'cell' concept that IBM, Sony, and Toshiba just announced.  One could I consider using Power.  The real issue is what market would you be aiming  D at?  If it's low volume, high cost, I think that's a dead end.  Low I volume, low cost is one possibility.  The best would be high volume, low  I cost.  What that is is the real question.  What I vaguely remember about  E the research I think was called EV10 was along those lines.  A large  = number of low cost processors coupled together to give great  A performance.  Look at the Linux 'clusters' we've read about with  F hundreds or thousands of processors.  Lots of compute cycles, but not  coupled together very well.   G The real key point Bill makes is "no work having been done on post-EV8   Alpha designs since 2001".   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:59:58 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <HpqdndmWtNFSppHfRVn-hA@metrocastcablevision.com>    Dave Froble wrote:   ...   J > Saying that getting back into the CPU arena is not feasible is the same G > as saying that all the possible CPU manufacturers already exist, and  J > someone new, with adequate talent and capitol couldn't become a player.   D No, it is not:  it's saying (in part) that HP has much shorter-term > problems which it must solve than could be addressed by a new H architecture, else it wouldn't have anything viable left to run on said & architecture when it finally appeared.  H Plus the minor point that any such new architecture has no reason to be H any better, after all the money spent to develop it, than some existing F one - unless it also incorporates some significantly better idea than  existing architectures contain.    >  That I won't believe.  C People usually believe what they want to believe.  That has little  F relevance to reality, unless they can convince large numbers of other > people to share their vision or delusion (as the case may be).  0    What would be required would be spending someA > time to come up with a product in say 3-4 years which would be  E > competitive with where Power will be in 3-4 years, and where Alpha  * > 'could' have possibly been in 3-4 years.  I What part of the fact that doing something like that, *if* you succeeded  A at all, would take more like 5 - 6 years is difficult for you to  B comprehend?  The Alpha team hit the ground running (as a coherent E existing development group, no less) at Intel in mid-2001, and - had  G Tukwila not been canceled - would have taken at least 5.5 years to get  
 it to market.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:07:38 -0500  From: John Doe <jdoe@doe.org>  Subject: Re: HP should....& Message-ID: <420C4B8D.A54E1C5@doe.org>   Dave Froble wrote:I > I'd dispute that, from a certain perspective.  If by relaunch one would J > mean jump back into it at the point it was in 2001, no, that wouldn't beG > so good due to lost time.  EV8's time is now and the near future, and D > EV8 doesn't exist, and probably couldn't exist in that time frame.    G I used to have the DEC brainwash and think that Alpha was decades ahead G of its time. But over time, I realised that what this was all about was ? speed to market. Competitors had features similar to Alpha, but  delivered later.  D If you were to reconstitute an Alpha team today, they wouldn't startH where they last left off. They'd start a new project today with featuresG that Intel, IBM and Sun are starting to work on too. And they'd benefit D from other developments done while they were "away". They may not beF able to copy what IBM did to Power, but they'd get some inspiration of what works and what doesn't.    H If the Alpha instruction set does allow for greater speeds and easier toH develop and faster to market, then the newly reconstituted team would beG able to move to the next generation in time to regain its edge within a 
 few years.  E Lets take an extreme case: lets say they were to revive the VAX chip. D Engineers wouldn't have to go though every iteration that they wouldG have gone though since 1996. They'd develop a twin core VAX with shared C cache with a 90nm process and instantly bring the VAX into the 21st  century in one generation.  D copying :-)  If the Alpha team are able to deliver to market faster,G then within a couple of years Alpha would regain its edge. Meanwhile it $ could have just simple speed bumps.   G One has to look at the big picture now. IBM is marginalizing the wintel B market and pushing Power to lower end.  Should HP do the same withD Alpha, it would relegate wintel to cheap commodity desktops and shutG Windows out of true enterprise, leaving Dell with an essential monopoly V (which would probably result in rise in wintel server prices due to less competition).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:14:35 -0500  From: John Doe <jdoe@doe.org>  Subject: Re: HP should....' Message-ID: <420C4D2D.FD873A82@doe.org>    Bill Todd wrote:F > existing development group, no less) at Intel in mid-2001, and - hadH > Tukwila not been canceled - would have taken at least 5.5 years to get > it to market.c  H Working with a dog takes longer. Now, even if it took 5.5 years to get aG new up-to-date Alpha to the market, they could still do process shrinksbD of EV7 and do some work at the system level to increase performance.  F Consider what it has taken 4.5 years between murder of Alpha and firstB commercial version of VMS on that IA64 thing. And there isn't much software available.   F So, if you're going to develop a new platform starting on 2006 when HPE announces the widthdrawal of IA64, it would take about 4 years to getDH VMS to restart again. If you announce rebirth of Alpha, you are going toH take about as much time but meanwhile, you inherit the complete softwareB ecosystem which can grow during thsoe year sbecause VMS is already  available on Alpha, so is Linux.  F And consider SGI going Alpha, it would allow SGI to migrate immediatly$ to Alpha since Alpha already exists.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:40:07 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>p% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina firedw, Message-ID: <420BE2C4.A66490C4@teksavvy.com>   Michael Unger wrote:: > > May I suggest Terry Shannon for President & CEO, [...] >                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^- > 9 > He seems to be rather biased with respect to Itanic ...-  C No. He is biased towards the folks who give him information becausek9 without those sources, he woudln't be able to produce theIF newsletters/presentations that keep him alive. Very sikilar to the USAG networks who don't dare question the information that is fed to them byo> the white house for fear of losing that source of information.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:35:32 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> % Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fireda, Message-ID: <420C35FC.7AF3D631@teksavvy.com>  ( Very good article from Mike Kenellos at:N http://news.com.com/Fiorinas+fuzzy+vision/2010-1071_3-5569685.html?tag=st.prev  C I find it interesting to see how the media portray Fiorina. You can F really see those that just cover the surface, and those that have moreH in depth knowledge. This article shows much more in depth knowledge than the average report.   5 BTW Seems John Smith was right about the hairdresser.1  B And Capellas is still listed as a front runner. For christ's sake.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:22 -0500c< From: "Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Intrusion attempts(, Message-ID: <371p6gF55pr5oU1@individual.net>   Syltrem wrote: >...; > Is there any way to make a selection only for the addressy6 > [165.110.40.1] when using the ANALYZE/AUDIT command?D > Now I use /since and /before around the time intrusion record were0 > deleted by the procedure, but it is not exact.: > Examples of the variations of the Terminal name string :4 > Terminal name:            _VTA3660, [166.110.40.1]= > Terminal name:            VTA3662, _NTY4632, [166.110.40.1]a= > Terminal name:            VTA1471, _NTY1613, [166.110.40.1]n4 > Terminal name:            _VTA3664, [166.110.40.1] >...    4 /SELECT=TERMINAL=*166.110.40.1* should work for you.  G Have you considered that maybe the device (or one of the handhelds that F plug into it) is babbling and sending out garbage from time to time to cause the login attempts?-   -- - Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc.m Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAXt www.weaverconsulting.cai   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:26:38 -0500J- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>n6 Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend...., Message-ID: <420BDF9C.15823C25@teksavvy.com>   Kenneth Farmer wrote:iN > OK, so the World Cup would be another great opportunity to get the word out.  G However, I am not certain that the World Cup is similar to Superbowl. ItF think that there are many broadcasters involved for each country it is> seen. A bit like the olympics. So viewership is divided and noF broadcaster gets a huge concentration of viewers even though the total, number of viewers may dwarf the USA events.   C So while the Superbowl or the so called "world-cup" may be very USA G centric, they still concentrate a lot of viewer to a single network. SotG a single ad purchased from one network will reach a lot more viewers incD Superbowl than buying a single ad from one network airing World Cup.  G The thing about Superbowl is that it isn't so much a sporting event, it F is an advertising event. It is a competition for the best ads. The adsC are actually watched, so they have great potential. And people talk4( about the ads for days after the event.   H (Heck, GoDaddy,.com got its second ads pulled at the last minute becauseC the Football league decided it was too racy (it was a spoof on lasteG year's Janet Jackson event). They didn't even have time to call GoDaddyi to advise of their decision.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:22:29 -0500o% From: "DAVID TURNER" <DAVID@HPAQ.NET> 1 Subject: Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 0 Message-ID: <110nu5pe30e0df9@news.supernews.com>  - we received a cheque stating "no phone calls"i   Enough said_   David    -- - Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 1802 Savannah GA 31404m Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.como    A "Marty Kuhrt" <kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org> wrote in messagee- news:e0ItEfIjstju@eisner.encompasserve.org...aK > In article <3MAXX9iUUYzT@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.nett (Larry Kilgallen) writes:eF > > In article <cud8d6$buo$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Chris Sharman$ <chris.sharman@sorry.nospam> writes:2 > >> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: > >>B > >>> Sent an email to you Chris - I need a configuration request. > >>> Then I can quote > >>H > >> Thanks for the quote - it seems spamfilters are now having to be soG > >> aggressive that legitimate email struggles to get through when notmH > >> whitelisted. I'm the same - the filters are good, but the volume ofB > >> 'maybe spam' is now so great that I miss real mail sometimes. > > E > > Email is your only choice - we tried to order by mail from IslandmH > > based on their web site.  FIVE WEEKS later (after repeated followupsF > > when no confirmation was received) they rejected our order, sayingG > > they could not fill it (but giving no details) indicating they willt > > not deal by mail.n >n4 > I've ordered by phone without problem in the past.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2005 21:18:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250l3 Message-ID: <VflJ92fs++jm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   X In article <110nu5pe30e0df9@news.supernews.com>, "DAVID TURNER" <DAVID@HPAQ.NET> writes:/ > we received a cheque stating "no phone calls"f  I ...along with the specified form from your web site for the goods offeredpF there.  That page (http://islandco.com/ds10l_custom_system.html) says:  ( "Pricing below is current and accurate."    andN "Print out this page for your records and use as an attachment for your order"  
 > Enough saide  @ The implication being that you are incapable of writing a letter explaining your problem.  ? The notion that it took _FIVE_WEEKS_ for you to attach a sticky E note and say you were rejecting the order confirms that literacy gap.7   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:33 -0500t' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>i9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminars0 Message-ID: <110nh1ve50hs130@corp.supernews.com>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  C > I'd like a module on how to obtain a rack mount kit and bezel. ;)9   Ok, enough.s   1) Make some measurements.  @ 2) Go to your local Home Depot, Lowes, hardware store, whatever.  L 3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and washers.  F 4) Go back to the den and build side rails that the system can sit on.  G 5) Depending upon local earthquake conditions, you might also bolt the   system to the angles.p  A A lot cheaper than $75, a break from the keyboard, and some self l sufficiency satisfaction.,   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:31:13 -0500 2 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <squayle@insight.rr.com>9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminaro. Message-ID: <420B8C51.4993.1AB01801@localhost>  + On 10 Feb 2005 at 15:38, Dave Froble wrote: E > 3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and 
 > washers.  @ You must have not seen a rx2600.  Make those heavy-weight steel 	 angles...0  
 --Stan Quayle. Quayle Consulting Inc.  
 ----------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ  +1 614-868-1363 3 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH  43147  USAi0 stan-at-stanq-dot-com       http://www.stanq.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:56:22 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>t9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications SeminarP0 Message-ID: <110o05d1eoagp42@corp.supernews.com>   Stanley F. Quayle wrote:- > On 10 Feb 2005 at 15:38, Dave Froble wrote:y > E >>3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and 
 >>washers. >  > B > You must have not seen a rx2600.  Make those heavy-weight steel  > angles...t  G Steel is very strong.  Most non-engineers, and even some engineers, go iF overboard because something might 'look' flimsy.  For example, an AN4 E aircraft bolt, (good alloy, 1/4 inch) has a tensil strength of (from eH memory) over 100,000 lbs.  (Ok, maybe I should go and re-read the book, L but they are very strong.)  A 3/32 inch stainless cable is good for 900 lbs.  G Even mild steel, which is what I was refering to, at say, 12 gauge, is g very strong.  G Take a look at one of the cabinets DEC built in the 1980s.  You'll see iF that the thickness of the metal isn't very much.  I doubt that RX2600 E (no, I haven't seen one) would outweigh 3 or 4 RA90 disk drives, nor y8 produce as much stress as when those things are turning.   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2005 18:54:37 -06004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminara3 Message-ID: <kT+3MMZn$8vS@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <110nh1ve50hs130@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:" > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > D >> I'd like a module on how to obtain a rack mount kit and bezel. ;) > 
 > Ok, enough.- >  > 1) Make some measurements.B > 2) Go to your local Home Depot, Lowes, hardware store, whatever.N > 3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and washers.H > 4) Go back to the den and build side rails that the system can sit on.I > 5) Depending upon local earthquake conditions, you might also bolt the   > system to the angles.  > C > A lot cheaper than $75, a break from the keyboard, and some self r > sufficiency satisfaction.    Ditto. .   ? I couldn't find a rack mount kit for my DS10L (similar problems B flailing through hpland for info).  Finally I got a rack mountable@ shelf and did it myself.  Total cost; nothing, I got it from theA recycle pile at work.  Time saved not bashing my head against thea* wall that is hp sales/ordering; priceless!   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:42:54 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)1 Subject: RE: So how big a parachute did she have?s6 Message-ID: <00A3F2F6.80CD2509@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  | In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F262@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes: >l >> -----Original Message----- H >> From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org]=20" >> Sent: February 10, 2005 8:32 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com4 >> Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have? >>=20h >> In article=20> >> <1107991887.590340.274150@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,=20% >> "mas" <mas769@hotmail.com> writes:h0 >> > $21 million. Made for the rest of her life. >> >=20 G >> > Even she would have trouble spending that on hairdos and such ;-).  >>=20 D >>    Now she can affor to work for the government.  Maybe Bush willA >>    ask her to work on the US-Canadian merger those up north=201 >> have feared >>    for so long. >>=20  >r >Bob,  >oE >Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada. H >Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, but I0 >am sure they will see the value in this vision. >t >:-)  H There's a handy supply of French speakers right next door in Louisiana.    That could work out.   -- Alanf   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:35:08 -0500b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have?a, Message-ID: <420BE199.A452A56B@teksavvy.com>   John Smith wrote:n > But I digress.... N > I wonder if she cut a deal to continue using the Gulfstream G-V to go on job
 > interviews?i  C Most likely. But I woudl think it would be a on a "plane available"gF basis with the real board/company having priority, and she may have to share a ride with other people.   H Was it the last GE Ceo who had gotten continued access to corporate jetsB for life ? This backfired because he had gotten so much out of his/ retirement package. (Same with Grasso at NYSE).t  G So I suspect Carly's package will be more reasonable. But corporate jet.G for first 6 months, at least until the new permanent CEO is found wouldo be reasonable.  C Does anyone know if she is expected to continue to work for HP on atH consultative basis to ensure proper transition, or was she really sacked ASAP ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:44:22 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>r1 Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have?r, Message-ID: <420BE3C3.43D668B9@teksavvy.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:H > > Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada.K > > Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, but Io3 > > am sure they will see the value in this vision.i > >  > ( >    How do you spell nucular in French?    A We don't use proprietary USA technology, we use industry standardlD nuclear reactors. The USA is mad at Iran because it got open sourcedE nuclear technology instead of buying the USA proprietary Nucular (tm)h	 systems. u   And in french, it is Nuclaire   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:41:34 +0000-& From: Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk>1 Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have?e1 Message-ID: <100220052241345582%nospam@yrl.co.uk>m  ? In article <1Y787Ny45YXI@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Bob Koehler70 <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:   > In articleI > <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F262@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, + > "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:a > >  > > Bob, > > H > > Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada.K > > Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, but Io3 > > am sure they will see the value in this vision.h > >  > ( >    How do you spell nucular in French?  0 What's a coffee stained LK401-AA worth on e-Bay?   -- eA I thought I would be the last on earth to mung my e-mail address.h fsnospam$elliott$$   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:21:47 -0500 * From: Brian Hechinger <wonko@4amlunch.net># Subject: Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem>3 Message-ID: <20050210232147.GV29@ford.4amlunch.net>f  < On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 08:00:41AM +0000, Jay Maynard wrote:B > >> (And should I be pestering the guys on comp.os.vms, instead?)M > > Probably.  <shrug>  None of the VAX 4000 line is 20 years old yet.  Soon d > > enough, I guess.  3 some of the later model ones aren't even close.  ;)n   -brian -- kJ "Now you know why I got the everliving hell OUT of Windows administration.F Knowing it doesn't make it any easier.  It's just broken-as-designed."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:38:48 -0500 % From: Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net>i# Subject: Re: VAX 4000 m500A problemh; Message-ID: <howard-6D8857.22384810022005@news.newsguy.com>a  E In article <-YCdnSQzb4pVwpbfRVn-sg@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:r  = > In article <howard-62162F.21423809022005@news.newsguy.com>,a+ >    Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:iH > >In article <ToKdndkrytznmpffRVn-sw@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >s@ > >> Why don't you wait until you get everything you need?  Then+ > >> pick the word you used the most often.  > >  > >I should name a VAX "THE"?p > >t. > That's not the most common adjective I used.  ) Barb, you said "word", not adjective. :-D    -- . Nobody knows Particle Man.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:49:19 -0700l" From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>8 Subject: Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ?( Message-ID: <420BBABF.1DECEC7C@mist.com>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > 2 > I emailed Carly alot and she actually replied to- > several of my emails, and she actually knews/ > what vms was and at least supported it ... ifs/ > cappelas or some other brain dead ceo gets inn1 > then it could get worse and then we all will ben > hoping some else buys it ...   Lets hope that Gates doesn't.P   -- e2 "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as,  when they do it from religious conviction."2         Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:50:07 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>e8 Subject: Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ?0 Message-ID: <110nhnlif39tl84@corp.supernews.com>   GreyCloud wrote: > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > 2 >>I emailed Carly alot and she actually replied to- >>several of my emails, and she actually knew / >>what vms was and at least supported it ... if / >>cappelas or some other brain dead ceo gets inr1 >>then it could get worse and then we all will be( >>hoping some else buys it ... >  >  > Lets hope that Gates doesn't.  > F Palmer tried to give it to Gates, but Gates apparently didn't want it.  8 (I'm refering to the technology transfer, DLM and such.)   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:08:29 -0500y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>c5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?o, Message-ID: <420BDB5B.19557DAA@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > about teaching students C.  As a matter of fact, we don't have anyE > course that teaches any language as it's primary concern.  LanguagesF > is unimportant.  What is important and what we teach are programming > concepts.     A It depends on what you are teaching. If you are teaching computerlH science with the graduates going to work on building an operating systemC or compilers, then I'd say that learning multiple languages is veryeH important. If you're going to spit out windows weenies who will get jobs; administering windows systems, then your policy is correct.e  C How can you judge a language if you can't compare it with others ? i    F When PSION released its Series 5 machine based on what is now known asE Symbian OS, it was all based on C++.  I was told by people who shouldiH have known that no C compiler could generate the object oriented machineF instructions user by the StrongArm processor of that machine. They hadC no real concept of what a compiler really did behind the scenes andrA really thought that C++ was in a world of its own and that it wasmH absolutely impossible to generate call frames in C that would be able to. access the machines "system services library".  A And that is why I feel very strongly about teaching one assembleraG language to computer science students on top of at least 2 higher levelVH languages. And the way you teach those higher level lnguages should alsoF include teaching students how to learn new languages on their own. AndE if you have a good understanding on what a compiler really does, then ' learning a new language is much easier.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:08:58 -0800i# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>a5 Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this?e( Message-ID: <opslz448dbzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:52:11 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ >> In article <opslzkhxt8zgicya@hyrrokkin>,e( >> "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:C >>> On 10 Feb 2005 14:23:45 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>i
 >>> wrote: >>>rI >>>> As for PL/1, it is not readily available on the majority of machinesnH >>>> the students work with so they are very unlikely to become familiar' >>>> enough with it to actually use it.h >>>cE >>> It is available on Windows, AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Linux/x86, Tru64s8 >>> and VMS, The Windows version from IBM is about $180, >>D >> That works out to about $5000 for one lab.  Add onto that anotherD >> $3000 for faculty machines.  And what exactly do I use to justifyD >> that kind of spending?  I barely have enough budget to keep up toG >> date with the hard and software we have to run.  Contrary to popular,I >> belief, with the exception of the MIT's, CMU's and UCB's, universities'" >> are not overflowing with money. >>F >>>                                              Don't know what Liant >>> charges, >>H >> I don't either, but it wouldn't much matter as it is bound to be more >> than I can justify. >  >cH > Kermit's PC VT emulation to the VAX is all you'd need....correct, Tom? >i) PuTTY is free and that is all you need:-)t >f >e > -- > / > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.f >e >p       --  C Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/a   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.083 ************************