0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 12 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 85      Contents:! An honest and working money-maker + Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) / Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) / Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) / Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) % DCL call to get shadow member status? ) Re: DCL call to get shadow member status?  Re: ddis-e-tnf during upgrade , Re: DIFF /ig=WHITESPACE request fo Guy Peleg; dont believe this fool that posted underneath me hes a liar  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired- Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... - Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend....  Re: Lexical to get ACL( Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250( Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $2500 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar0 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Re: SLS dead Re: SLS dead Re: SLS dead( Re: So how big a parachute did she have?+ Re: Swiftnet banking available for OpenVMS! * Two of the things in this picture are dead8 Re: What universities (and the IT Branch) could be doing7 Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation? 7 Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation? 7 Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation? 7 Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 15:14:53 -0800 From: Chris48224@yahoo.com* Subject: An honest and working money-makerC Message-ID: <1108163693.585114.263060@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   F Try this out, it works!!!! Turn $10 into $10,000 with PayPal, easy andA quick. PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO READ THIS INFORMATION. THIS REALLY E WORKS!!! " I WAS SHOCKED WHEN I SAW HOW MUCH MONEY CAME FLOODING INTO  MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT." -Mark 2004   Dear Friend,F This is a new program, as you will see. It can be for the U.S. Canada,B S=2EE Asia or the U.K. This is a fantastic opportunity. Try it forE yourself!! EVERYTHING DONE ONLINE! With just $10 or =A35 and a PayPal E PREMIER or BUSINESS account, you could make $$Thousands$$ in 2 SIMPLE C STEPS! GUARANTEED - you will have $10,000 in two weeks. Only $10, a A PayPal PREMIER or BUSINESS account and 30 minutes are all that is D needed to get this going. If you want to make a few thousand dollarsD real quick, then PLEASE take a moment to read and understand the MLM= program I'm sharing with you. No it's not what you think. YOU G DON=B4T have to send $10 to five or six people to buy a report, receipt E or get on their mailing list. Nor will you need to invest more money. D You will be able to complete it in LESS THAN 30 MINUTES and you will2 NEVER FORGET THE DAY YOU FIRST VIEWED THIS ONLINE.  E If you're already running a home business, you can easily do this one B along with it. If not, this is the FASTEST and EASIEST way to earnC serious money online that you've ever seen so far in the history of F the Internet! This program works no matter what country you are in, orA what currency you use. It doesn't matter how old or how young you B are. And you certainly won't need any special knowledge or talent.= You won't need to run a website, or make phone calls, or make = photocopies, or send out letters through the mail, or pay for 4 advertising, etc. The only things you will need are: * an email addressE * A Premier or Business PayPal account with at least $10 deposited in  it * 30 minutes of your time   G ONLY 2 SIMPLE AND EASY STEPS! ! If you are doing other programs, by all F means stay with them. The more the merrier, BUT PLEASE READ ON!! First7 of all, there are only TWO POSITIONS, not realistic and D much, MUCH FASTER. Because it is so easy, the response rate for thisG program is VERY HIGH and VERY FAST, and you will receive your reward in D FOURTEEN DAYS. That's only TWO WEEKS! Not one or two months. Just inG time for next months BILLS. TRUE STORY -- Grace Kelly tells how she ran ! this gifting summation four times G last year. The first time, she received $6,000 in cash in two weeks and * then $14,000 in cash the next three times.F THIS CAN AND WILL WORK FOR YOU! HERE ARE THE DETAILS: Post this letterA in 50 message boards, chat rooms, or newsgroup. You don't need to < post 200 like other programs or email 100 people just to getC started. Even if you are already in a program like the "send twenty B dollars to six people", CONTINUE IT and stay with it, THOSE DO PAYE OUT, but do yourself a favor, DO THIS ONE TODAY as well, RIGHT NOW!!! E It is simple and takes a very small investment, only $10 and a PayPal F PREMIER or BUSINESS account. IT WORKS AND IS DONE IN 2 SIMPLE AND EASYG STEPS! ! This program WILL PAY FASTER before the other programs you are F working on even trickle in!! Follow the simple instructions and in twoF weeks, you should have $10,000 because most PEOPLE WILL RESPOND due to2 the LOW ONE TIME INVESTMENT, SPEED AND HIGH PROFITC POTENTIAL, PLUS, since its done ALL ONLINE, there is no time-wasted > mailing out letters and such!!! We are not even figuring a 50%A response! So let's all keep it going and help each other in these E tough times. We all owe money to bill collectors, and creditors. But, G with this, if people take the time to help each other, the good fortune B will follow. SO, Take the measly minutes this SIMPLE and REWARDINGG program offers and give the gift that gives back TODAY!!! HERE=B4S WHAT  YOU NEED TO DO:    STEP 1A Ok, if you're not already a PayPal user, the very first thing you 
 need to do is A use the PayPal link below and SIGN UP. It takes just two minutes! 4 Here's the URL. Just click on the PayPal link below:= https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=3D_registration-run A Be sure to use this link so you can sign up for a free PREMIER or  BUSINESSE account. You'll need to have a PREMIER or BUSINESS account (and not a D PERSONAL account) otherwise you won't be able to receive credit card payments from other people.    STEP 2B It is an undeniable law of the universe that we must first give in= order to receive. So the first thing to do when you have your D Premier/Business PayPal account is to IMMEDIATELY send a $10 payment< from your PayPal account to the person at POSITION #1, if..., Your birthday is BETWEEN JAN 1 THRU JUNE 30,	 OR, if... 8 -- your birthday is BETWEEN JULY 1 THRU DEC 31, send the# gift to the person at POSITION # 2. E Along with a note saying: "HERE IS A $10 GIFT FOR YOU." Be certain to E add this note, as this is what KEEPS THIS PROGRAM LEGAL. Instructions C on how to send a payment are under "SEND MONEY" at the PayPal Site. C It's so Easy!!! When you send your $10 payment to the first address F in the list, do it with a great big smile on your face because "as youF sow, so shall you reap!"  When this program is continued, as it shouldG be, EVERYONE PROFITS!! DON=B4T BE AFRAID to send gifts to strangers. It D will come back to you ten folds. A person can give you up to $10,0004 per year and you don't have to report it to the IRS! Here are the current positions: ( * POSITION#1 --- chris48224 at yahoo.com, * POSITION#2 --- executioner_2k at yahoo.comD (sorry the emails don't show up correctly on these Google posts in @$ format, change them to ___@___. ___)> After you have transferred a $10 payment to the email address,< something very eerie happens. It gives you an indescribable,E overwhelming sense of certainty, belief and conviction in the system. D You've just proved to yourself that, because you have done it, thereD must be a great number of other people ready to do exactly the same.C Thus you have now seen for yourself, first hand, that this business  actually works! E REMOVE the email address you are replacing (the one you sent $10 to), B and REPLACE it with your own email address. REMEMBER: Use the sameG EMAIL ADDRESS that is used with YOUR PayPal account!!! Paste your newly @ typed email address over the old one and then post to 50 MessageF Boards, Chat Rooms, or Newsgroups. DON=B4T MULL OVER IT, JUST 30MIN OFD YOUR TIME, THAT=B4S IT THERE IS NO MORE TO DO!! ACT FAST AND GET THEG GIFT. HONESTLY AND INTEGRITY MAKE THIS PLAN WORK!! DO TO OTHERS, AS YOU C WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU. YOUR NAME COULD CYCLE FOR A LONG TIME! ! , THIS MAKES IT THE GIFT THAT KEEPS ON GIVING.  C This is excellent seed money to start or expand a business, buy you G dream home, car, and pay off whatever bills you may have. Good luck and B God Bless. Play fairly. Good fortune will follow. WHY THIS PROGRAM WORKS:A !! HONESTY AND INTEGRITY!! Straight to the point, the reason this F program is SO SUCCESSFUL is because when you follow these instructionsI EXACTLY =3D GIVE A $10 GIFT and POST this in 50 different message boards, E there are only TWO outcomes. (1) A person's birthday will fall on the & same half as yours, therefore, YOU GETD THE $10... OR, (2) a persons birthday will fall on the other half ofG the timeline, therefore, YOU STAY IN YOUR POSITION and get posted in 50 E other MESSAGE BOARDS, etc. BOTTOMLINE: Either you get the $10 or your F name gets passed on for other people to give YOU $10 or pass YOUR nameE on to other people that will. It makes you think though, the more you . POST YOUR OWN POSTS, the BETTER the results!!!  1 4 FACTORS THAT MAKE THIS PROGRAM SO SUCCESSFUL...  * EXTREMELY FAST RESPONSE  * EXTREMELY HIGH RESPONSE RATE * UNLIMITED PROFIT POTENTIAL( * QUICK, SIMPLE AND CHEAP TO GET STARTED  G So there it is. You now have the knowledge that will enable you to make D over $10,000 within the next two weeks. The only thing that can holdF you back now is a lack of faith or a lack of self-belief. However, anyA doubts you may currently have will disappear within a few days of @ putting this plan into practice. Trust me on this! You certainlyB won't regret it. SOME NOTES FROM PAYPAL WHICH YOU MAY FIND USEFUL:C PayPal lets you pay anyone with an email address and is the world's E Number 1 online payment service. PayPal is accepted on over 3 million D eBay auctions as well as a countless number of online shops. You canD also use PayPal to pay your friends - for example, it's a convenientG way to split the phone bill with your room-mate, send cash to your kids G in college, or send cash to someone in another country. Better yet, you G can also earn a referral bonus of up to $100 each time someone signs up A for a PayPal account using your referral URL! When you send money C through PayPal, you can fund your payments with your credit card or E checking account. You won't have to worry about your privacy, because B PayPal keeps your accounting information safe and secure. Making aF purchase with PayPal is far more secure than mailing a check or giving@ your credit card number to a stranger. That's why over 9 MILLIONG people from around the world use PayPal to move money. Signing up for a D PayPal account is free, easy, and it takes only a couple of minutes.B Thank you, and good luck in your ventures P.S. Does this sound tooF good? Well maybe to some skeptics it is. But it actually works, and isF worth the 30 minutes of your time now. So, just make a nice cup of teaC and get started on it now. After all, you can't lose, but you stand C to gain more in the next few weeks than many people earn in a year.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 15:02:39 -0800 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com4 Subject: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling)C Message-ID: <1108162959.668032.224100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   D My home computer room is too hot and costs too much in power to run.D Currently always-on are a PWS600au (loaded), my main desktop, and an3 AS600-5/333 with BA364 tower (two drives) used as a D webserver/PHP/archive system, plus comm gear and switches.  The commG gear and switches draw around 75-80 watts; the PWS is rated at 300, and G the AS600 at 400 watts (I realize those are max numbers; I don't have a G way to measure the actual draw).  The AS600 and the BA364 pump out heat  like crazy.   F I need to equal or improve the performance of the AS600 system but cutC down on power and heat.  The lowest max rating I found on HP is the E DS10-L at 150 watts; that would obviously be a good performer too.  A G true DS10 is rated at 300W max; by experience they don't put out nearly C as much heat as the AS600 but I can't tell if the power draw is any G less (and DS10s seem to be perpetually too highly valued and priced for @ my hobby ambitions).  A DS10L is not a good choice for a desktopE replacement for obvious reasons.  An XP1000 or DS10 could replace the D PWS600au but the power savings would be minimal (jsut the differenceB between the AS600 and the PWS600au when the AS600 got pushed out).  D If only one box is to be directly replaced, the AS600 is the obviousF candidate. If a better workstation (that doesn't blow the power req's)> is the best solution then the PWS will be pushed down into the" webserver role for the time being.  G Any other thoughts or options?  Nyet to using a peecee for any of this.    Thanks   Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:47:10 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling), Message-ID: <JY-dnWQUG7Zj3pDfRVn-rg@igs.net>  F Charon-Alpha on a laptop with a solar panel to charge the battery  ;-)  & http://www.basegear.com/solarroll.html google: brunton solar      jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote: F > My home computer room is too hot and costs too much in power to run.F > Currently always-on are a PWS600au (loaded), my main desktop, and an5 > AS600-5/333 with BA364 tower (two drives) used as a F > webserver/PHP/archive system, plus comm gear and switches.  The commE > gear and switches draw around 75-80 watts; the PWS is rated at 300, F > and the AS600 at 400 watts (I realize those are max numbers; I don'tG > have a way to measure the actual draw).  The AS600 and the BA364 pump  > out heat like crazy. > H > I need to equal or improve the performance of the AS600 system but cutE > down on power and heat.  The lowest max rating I found on HP is the G > DS10-L at 150 watts; that would obviously be a good performer too.  A B > true DS10 is rated at 300W max; by experience they don't put outE > nearly as much heat as the AS600 but I can't tell if the power draw E > is any less (and DS10s seem to be perpetually too highly valued and E > priced for my hobby ambitions).  A DS10L is not a good choice for a C > desktop replacement for obvious reasons.  An XP1000 or DS10 could G > replace the PWS600au but the power savings would be minimal (jsut the B > difference between the AS600 and the PWS600au when the AS600 got > pushed out). > F > If only one box is to be directly replaced, the AS600 is the obviousH > candidate. If a better workstation (that doesn't blow the power req's)@ > is the best solution then the PWS will be pushed down into the$ > webserver role for the time being. > C > Any other thoughts or options?  Nyet to using a peecee for any of  > this.  >  > Thanks >  > Rich   --  - OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:31:29 +0000 (UTC) % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> 8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling)6 Message-ID: <slrnd0qjnp.mp2.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>  O In article <JY-dnWQUG7Zj3pDfRVn-rg@igs.net>, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: H > Charon-Alpha on a laptop with a solar panel to charge the battery  ;-)  " VIA C3 processor - x86 compatible.  0 At 700 MHz, 10 watts. About 20 watts at 1.4 GHz.  H That'd be a great processor for said laptop running off battery or solar	 power. ;)    -Dan   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 22:15:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling)3 Message-ID: <BvNHj+af6kFH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <1108162959.668032.224100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, jordan@ccs4vms.com writes:  H > I need to equal or improve the performance of the AS600 system but cutE > down on power and heat.  The lowest max rating I found on HP is the G > DS10-L at 150 watts; that would obviously be a good performer too.  A I > true DS10 is rated at 300W max; by experience they don't put out nearly   F That maximum figure presumably includes what might be disapated by theD two additional PCI slots.  If you don't populate them you save some.  B > my hobby ambitions).  A DS10L is not a good choice for a desktop" > replacement for obvious reasons.  C Not obvious to me -- what is the problem ?  Have you considered the  combo card ?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 14:00:50 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com . Subject: DCL call to get shadow member status?C Message-ID: <1108159250.338859.222200@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   7 I have two shadow members dka0 and dka100 ... I want to = bring in a third shadow set member for a quick backup nightly : from a batch command routine but I need a vms call to find< out the status of the dka200 thrid member.  If it is copying= I will wait 5 minutes then continue to check until the status 2 shows the disk as a shadow member ... I could do a   $ show device d/out=somefile  . and then parse it, but is there a quicker way?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:21:21 GMT % From: Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> 2 Subject: Re: DCL call to get shadow member status?E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0502111720140.28229@localhost.localdomain>   . On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 bob@instantwhip.com wrote:  9 > I have two shadow members dka0 and dka100 ... I want to ? > bring in a third shadow set member for a quick backup nightly < > from a batch command routine but I need a vms call to find> > out the status of the dka200 thrid member.  If it is copying? > I will wait 5 minutes then continue to check until the status # > shows the disk as a shadow member   D Check out the F$GETDVI SHDW* calls.  Some them ought to do what you  want.      --    B Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o mA G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (866)438-2101 (voice) toll free! 6 Edmonton                         (780)438-9343 (voice)5                                   (780)437-3367 (FAX) 2                                   http://gmcl.com/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:06:01 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> & Subject: Re: ddis-e-tnf during upgradeB Message-ID: <1108162464.ecc83dfa88c661f5eeacbe3190624ca4@teranews>   tadamsmar@yahoo.com wrote: > DDIS-E-TNF >   > and a recommendation to abort. > . > My web search indicates that I probably have > a corrupt kit.  E If they are savesets, you can use bACKUP/VERIFY, and if they are PCSI G kits, there is a product command to exract files from the kit. Doing so 5 for each PCSI file would reveal which one is corrupt.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 12:13:31 -0800  From: "Barry" <dysert@gmail.com>5 Subject: Re: DIFF /ig=WHITESPACE request fo Guy Peleg B Message-ID: <1108152811.104154.32120@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  F Until /IGN=WHITE comes out, you can use this quick & dirty VAX FORTRAND program I wrote.  It squeezes all of the whitespace out of the inputE file and creates a new file.  Run this on your two files and see what @ differences there are (did I mention that it's quick & dirty ;-)  p ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------           PROGRAM SQUEEZE            IMPLICIT NONE          INTEGER*4 maxline !         PARAMETER (maxline = 150) @         CHARACTER infile*40, inline*(maxline), outline*(maxline)&         CHARACTER space /32/ , tab /9/         INTEGER*4 nchars, j, k   C M -----------------------------------------------------------------------------            TYPE 4003 400     FORMAT ('$Enter name of file to squeeze: ') !         READ(*,403,END=99) infile  403     FORMAT(A)          OPEN(unit=1,         1    file=infile,          1    status='old',!         1    access='sequential',          1    form='formatted',         1    shared, readonly)         OPEN(unit=2,!         1    file='squeezed.txt',          1    status='new',!         1    access='sequential',          1    form='formatted')  ) 10      READ(1,401,END=91) nchars, inline  401     FORMAT(Q,A) %         IF (nchars .gt. maxline) THEN             TYPE 402, nchars = 402        FORMAT(' Line too big (', I, ') increase maxline')             GO TO 99          END IF  
         k = 0          DO j=1,nchars +            IF (inline(j:j) .ne. space .and. )         1      inline(j:j) .ne. tab) THEN                k = k + 1 (               outline(k:k) = inline(j:j)            END IF          END DO0         IF (k .gt. 0) WRITE (2,404) outline(1:k) 404     FORMAT(1x,A)         GO TO 10  ( 91      TYPE *, '[SQUEEZED.TXT created]'         GO TO 99   99      CLOSE(1)         CLOSE(2)         CALL EXIT          END    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 17:32:59 -0800' From: "vamuse" <vamuse172000@yahoo.com> D Subject: dont believe this fool that posted underneath me hes a liarC Message-ID: <1108171979.220998.217000@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   C this is the real version this is the same version as others but has D been altered in diferent ways in order to legalize it ...it has been9 approved by a lawyer READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE! 7 I am sure you could use $10,000.00 in the next 90 days. E A few days ago, I was on the internet browsing through message boards > just like you are now, and came across a message like this one: that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks> with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought," Yeah,C right, as if, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was very  curious,> so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each@ of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place> your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and7 post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are @ thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and< talking to my friends about it, I thought about trying it. I: figured what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00,: right? Then I invested the the $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!...3 within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! 9 I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money > just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $30.00. By? the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1000.00! = In the third week I had over $5000.00 and it's still growing. > This is now my fifth week and I have made a total of just over, $10,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly.  4 Let me tell you how this works and most importantly,@ why it works....also, make sure you print a copy of this article= NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. : Please study this letter carefully.... THIS IS NOT A CHAINA LETTER!!!.....This is a perfectly legal money making opportunity. B Follow these instructions EXACTLY and in the next 30 days you will receive $5000.00 in cash from * business minded individuals like yourself.  > STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following@ on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now> get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces= of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to 8 prevent thievery. Next, place one paper in each of the 6@ envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes,> each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name? and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a * service by this. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL!0 Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:   #1) M. Matthews  305 Crawford St. Senatobia, MS 38668 USA    #2) Kristy Turner  9516 Riviera Dr  Woodway, TX 76712  USA    #3) Joseph Jacobs  5111 Frankford Drive Owens Cross Roads, AL 35763  USA    #4) Paulette Meyer 2637 Larkin Street San Francisco, CA 94123 USA   8 #5) Corey Lesinszki  4138 Thornton Toledo,Ohio 43612 USA  ; #6) Shaun Bizzle, 248 Davors Dr., Montgomery, AL, 36109 USA   = STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, = move the other names up (6 becomes , 5 becomes 4, etc...) and > add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything> you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original? as possible. If you do not live in the US or there is a foreign > address you must put an international stamp on your envelopes.: Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups.2 (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you@ need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! . Once again THIS IS: NOT A CHAIN LETTER! But perfectly legal(refer to Title 18, Section 1302 and 13 		 wow that is a good deal    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:27:01 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <zN6dnZiyZMaYmpDfRVn-sw@metrocastcablevision.com>    John Reagan wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >  >>G >> 2.  Port the OSs somewhere else.  This might be fairly easy for VMS  E >> and even Tru64, though perhaps harder for HP-UX (since Itanic was  $ >> designed with its needs in mind). >  > C > "fairly easy for VMS"?  Can I take a hit of what you are smoking?   H Ask your co-workers for one:  they're the ones who have maintained that G the port of VMS to Itanic had the side-benefit of making VMS much more   portable in general.  F Perhaps they were just rationalizing - but that's what they said, and  rather unambiguously.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:52:14 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110q67lltmerm2f@corp.supernews.com>   Tom Linden wrote: 0 > On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:59:23 -0500, JF Mezei  ' > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:  >  >> Tom Linden wrote: >>
 >>>  The real I >>> value in the Digital component of HP is VMS, Alpha has lost all its   
 >>> value. >> >>G >> There is one aspect of Alpha: installed base and available software, E >> much of which is no longer developped and thus not be available on I >> Alpha's successor. Continuing the Alpha processor ratins that software H >> whereas moving to a new platform requires VMS start from scratch with >> software availability.   A This is an argument for Alpha, and VAX.  It's a limited argument.   J >> Note that this is also a reason HP-UX customers are still buying PaRiscK >> based machines instead of that unwanted IA64 thing. But VMS is in a much < >> worse shape than HP-UX in terms of application ecosystem. >  > F > Face it Alpha is dead.  To make VMS a viable business it _will_ need@ > to use a supplier for its chips such as Power /and/or Opteron.  F Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likely history. F To what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it would take, $ and for what, just another "me too".  B There are 2 issues, near term, and far future.  In the near term, F continuing to sell Alphas, with whatever enhancements can be done for @ EV7, is one solution.  Using the itanic when it's a fit is also G reasonable.  For far term, I can see a costly and tremendous effort to  H pull Alpha back to the front of the pack, just to see that new advances I have made all today's techniques obsolete.  All dressed up, with nowhere   to go.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:07:40 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110q74jpk9ei495@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > John Reagan wrote: >  >> Bill Todd wrote:  >> >>> H >>> 2.  Port the OSs somewhere else.  This might be fairly easy for VMS F >>> and even Tru64, though perhaps harder for HP-UX (since Itanic was % >>> designed with its needs in mind).  >> >> >>D >> "fairly easy for VMS"?  Can I take a hit of what you are smoking? >  > J > Ask your co-workers for one:  they're the ones who have maintained that I > the port of VMS to Itanic had the side-benefit of making VMS much more   > portable in general. > H > Perhaps they were just rationalizing - but that's what they said, and  > rather unambiguously.  >  > - bill  E The OS itself is one thing.  I think John still has a point with the  
 compilers.   Hey, job security John.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:57:08 -0500 & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> Subject: Re: HP should..... Message-ID: <0o9Pd.82$9a1.13@news.cpqcorp.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > John Reagan wrote: >  >> Bill Todd wrote:  >> >>> H >>> 2.  Port the OSs somewhere else.  This might be fairly easy for VMS F >>> and even Tru64, though perhaps harder for HP-UX (since Itanic was % >>> designed with its needs in mind).  >> >> >>D >> "fairly easy for VMS"?  Can I take a hit of what you are smoking? >  > J > Ask your co-workers for one:  they're the ones who have maintained that I > the port of VMS to Itanic had the side-benefit of making VMS much more   > portable in general. > H > Perhaps they were just rationalizing - but that's what they said, and  > rather unambiguously.  >  > - bill  D True.  Since the Alpha and Itanium versions are indeed built from a I common source area, most of the source code (whether Macro-32, BLISS, or  I C) is in much better shape.  Much of the platform-specific code has been  ) identified and isolated with macros, etc.   I Not to disagree with my co-workers who just ported from Alpha to I64, as  H somebody who has ported compilers from VAX to Ultrix to X86 to Alpha to I Tru64 to Itanium, going from 1 target to 2 finds about 80% of the places  F that are really platform-specific.  It wasn't until the 3 or even 4th F target that I had the Pascal compiler pretty portable.  Porting it to H OpenVMS I64 from OpenVMS Alpha took me about 2 days with the RTL taking  another day.  B However, that all assumes the existance of Macro-32, BLISS, and C I compilers for any future target.  C compilers you can find (although our  I C source uses many Compaq C extensions that might be hard to eliminate).  D   Macro-32 and BLISS compilers are the problem that turns this from G "fairly easy" to "90% fairly easy; 10% get several buckets of cash and  K come back in a year and hope I haven't pulled out what is left of my hair".    --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 14:05:52 -0800' From: "DL Phillips" <whohe@whoever.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....C Message-ID: <1108159552.944342.298880@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    John Smith wrote:   ' > 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD   F Well, Intel is a "mission critical" user of VMS and until we hear thatD they've dumped VMS, I think we should like having Intel on our side.A Does AMD use VMS? What "mission critical" app's do HP run on VMS?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:40 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <tuCdne-V5rVEsJDfRVn-1w@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote: F > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +0000 (UTC), <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> > wrote: > > >> Also how long would it take to port Tandem NSK to PA-RISC ?E >> How close was the port to Alpha to completion when the decision to  >> move to IA64 
 >> was made ?  > G > Maybe the question that should be asked, is how long would it take to E > provide migration tools from NSK to VMS?  Or alternatively, to whom % > can we sell Non-Stop business unit?  > ? > I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units.     . IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:16:53 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <-I-dnYJAudxIs5DfRVn-3A@igs.net>   DL Phillips wrote: > John Smith wrote:a >t( >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD >aH > Well, Intel is a "mission critical" user of VMS and until we hear thatF > they've dumped VMS, I think we should like having Intel on our side.  K Intel ran their Fab's on VAX and Alpha before HP bought Compaq, and they'lllH continue to run them on VMS until VMS dies unless something better comesH along. Intel is in the business of making money and won't do anything toH upset that apple cart unnecessarily. Alas the same can't be said for HP.       > Does AMD use VMS?o   Don't know.P    0 >What "mission critical" app's do HP run on VMS?L None that I'm aware of....not their accounting, not their order fullfilment.K Perhaps the in-house betting pool on carly(tm)'s departure - but now that's. a legacy system.   --  - OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 14:38:59 -0800' From: "DL Phillips" <whohe@whoever.com>e Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108161539.104534.64860@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   John Smith wrote:  > DL Phillips wrote: > > John Smith wrote:  > > * > >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD > >eE > > Well, Intel is a "mission critical" user of VMS and until we hearf thatB > > they've dumped VMS, I think we should like having Intel on our side.e >pE > Intel ran their Fab's on VAX and Alpha before HP bought Compaq, and  they'lleD > continue to run them on VMS until VMS dies unless something better comesfG > along. Intel is in the business of making money and won't do anythings toF > upset that apple cart unnecessarily. Alas the same can't be said for HP.s >r >r  F Yep. So, why does everyone think that Intel isn't trying as hard as it( can to let VMS succeed on an Intel chip?   >n > > Does AMD use VMS?: >e
 > Don't know.s >r  ( I'll bet we'd know about it if they did.   >-2 > >What "mission critical" app's do HP run on VMS?A > None that I'm aware of....not their accounting, not their ordert fullfilment.F > Perhaps the in-house betting pool on carly(tm)'s departure - but now that's > a legacy system. >r  E Yep again. So, why should HP care about VMS (other than as a product)MD if they don't even use it? Do you think maybe one reason they pickedF HP-UX over the obviously superior Tru64 is the fact that HP's business runs on HP-UX?  A I'd say of all the parties being discussed, only Intel has a real.D interest in VMS, and Intel carries a *little* weight in the computerF market. I'm pulling for Intel to help keep VMS alive. Maybe the new HP5 will see things differently, but only time will tell.h  F Sure, I'd like a low end AMD/x86-64 port, but I'm not going to hold my breath.y   -Doug    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 16:52:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: HP should....3 Message-ID: <5gc13eUEUT1O@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  l In article <1108161539.104534.64860@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "DL Phillips" <whohe@whoever.com> writes:  H > Yep. So, why does everyone think that Intel isn't trying as hard as it* > can to let VMS succeed on an Intel chip?  D Not "everybody" feels that way.  Just a few prolific posters in thisD newsgroup who feel voicing their opinion is worth driving away those& who seek serious technical discussion.  D Considering the killfile entries, the net effect can be described as# their desire to talk to themselves.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:54:18 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <qa2dnfg9_8MGqpDfRVn-qg@igs.net>   DL Phillips wrote: > John Smith wrote:n >> DL Phillips wrote:u >>> John Smith wrote:o >>>l* >>>> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD >>>rE >>> Well, Intel is a "mission critical" user of VMS and until we hearnG >>> that they've dumped VMS, I think we should like having Intel on our 	 >>> side.0 >>F >> Intel ran their Fab's on VAX and Alpha before HP bought Compaq, andF >> they'll continue to run them on VMS until VMS dies unless somethingC >> better comes along. Intel is in the business of making money andyE >> won't do anything to upset that apple cart unnecessarily. Alas the  >> same can't be said for HP.s >> >> >sH > Yep. So, why does everyone think that Intel isn't trying as hard as it* > can to let VMS succeed on an Intel chip?    E Intel, to a certain extent, does not care which os runs on its chips.  Intel doesn't own VMS.& The owner of VMS doesn't advertise it.     >>> Does AMD use VMS?6 >> >> Don't know. >> >n* > I'll bet we'd know about it if they did. >  >>3 >>> What "mission critical" app's do HP run on VMS?tB >> None that I'm aware of....not their accounting, not their order@ >> fullfilment. Perhaps the in-house betting pool on carly(tm)'s. >> departure - but now that's a legacy system. >> > G > Yep again. So, why should HP care about VMS (other than as a product) F > if they don't even use it? Do you think maybe one reason they pickedH > HP-UX over the obviously superior Tru64 is the fact that HP's business > runs on HP-UX?    L Nah. HP was better at selling their shitty flavor of unix than DECpaq was atK selling their superior flavor of unix, so there were fewer feathers ruffled  by killing Tru64.   J Remember that to people like curly, carly(tm), and Wayman, the numbers areG everything and everything else is nothing. That's just the way it is at 
 40,000 ft.    C > I'd say of all the parties being discussed, only Intel has a real F > interest in VMS, and Intel carries a *little* weight in the computerH > market. I'm pulling for Intel to help keep VMS alive. Maybe the new HP7 > will see things differently, but only time will tell.i    I OpenVMS - Capellas sold it down the river once....looks like he might getS to do it again.y      H > Sure, I'd like a low end AMD/x86-64 port, but I'm not going to hold my	 > breath.!  > I'd hate to have to do CPR on you for that length of time  ;-)   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:07:46 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108162570.e295224c4559fcf979723e6d162e2dee@teranews>   Tom Linden wrote:o? > I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units.E    B Some articles mentioned the new guy just getting rid of everything inherited from Compaq.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:19:57 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108163300.46349adff4701d68570eaf8867243a4d@teranews>   Dave Froble wrote:G > Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likely history. G > To what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it would take,y& > and for what, just another "me too".   Competitive advantage.  G HP has learned that there is no money to be made in commodity. IBM knewr2 that a long time ago and has already taken action.  @ So if HP is to succeed, will it turn itself into a low cost DellB competitor, or will it try to find some true technological edge to& differentiate itself from the others ?  D Alpha may have been asleep for a couple of years, but so has PaRisc.E Nevertheless, resurecting Alpha would still be far easier and cheaperVH and less troublesome for customers than going to a totally new platform.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:04:54 -0500d( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <jfydnR_1KcuLp5DfRVn-gg@metrocastcablevision.com>-   DL Phillips wrote: > John Smith wrote:a   ...'  E >>Intel ran their Fab's on VAX and Alpha before HP bought Compaq, and_ > 	 > they'lle > D >>continue to run them on VMS until VMS dies unless something better >  > comess > G >>along. Intel is in the business of making money and won't do anything  >  > to > F >>upset that apple cart unnecessarily. Alas the same can't be said for >  > HP.  >  >> > H > Yep. So, why does everyone think that Intel isn't trying as hard as it* > can to let VMS succeed on an Intel chip?  H Intel couldn't care less about VMS for VMS's sake:  their fabs will run G just fine on VMS as it is today (and quite likely as it was years ago).B  E They'd be happy to see VMS boost Itanic sales, of course - but don't PL seem sufficiently interested in that potential to push HP in that direction.   ...o  C > I'd say of all the parties being discussed, only Intel has a realO > interest in VMST  H And you'd be wrong.  As I noted above, Intel doesn't need anything from H VMS that it doesn't already have (absent increased Itanic sales, and it H doesn't seem to think that's a possibility worth pursuing).  Whereas HP G has a significant interest in VMS's potential to help HP's bottom line s> but has been - very persistently - too stupid to recognize it.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:07:17 -0500R( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <5vWdnXURA-ko1ZDfRVn-qg@metrocastcablevision.com>h   JF Mezei wrote:X > Dave Froble wrote: > G >>Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likely history.eG >>To what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it would take,r& >>and for what, just another "me too". >  >  > Competitive advantage.  A I've made repeated suggestions that the only way any competitive sG advantage would accrue to a resurrected Alpha platform would be for it  H to incorporate something superior to the competition, and so far no one 2 (including you) has come up with any such feature.  H Alpha *would have* led in SMT technology had EV8 been completed, but by I the time any SMT Alpha could get out now that technology will be old hat OG (either already embraced by all or bypassed by other areas of progress CI such as so much reduction in core sizes that leveraging multiple threads lF per core is no longer particularly useful).  Alpha *does* lead (POWER H possibly excepted) in integration of on-chip system support, but others @ are already moving in that direction and even Intel's commodity G processors will have it in a couple of years.  Alpha *used to* lead in mH raw processor performance, but the elephants with less streamlined ISAs D have learned to dance sufficiently well that any lead in the future < would not (absent some new secret weapon) be a decisive one.   > @ > HP has learned that there is no money to be made in commodity.   You mean like in printers?  
   IBM knew4 > that a long time ago and has already taken action.  G Commodity products fit into IBM's corporate fold a lot less compatibly nE than they fit into HP's.  Commodity products done *right* could be a  @ competitive advantage for HP, as long as they were perceived as H ancillary to its primary business (i.e., as items provided for customer ; convenience rather than as a core element of its business).    > B > So if HP is to succeed, will it turn itself into a low cost DellD > competitor, or will it try to find some true technological edge to( > differentiate itself from the others ?  G The question, of course, is where to look for that edge, given limited TC resources.  And since any such edge absolutely *requires* a lot of mH system-level work, adding anything else that isn't absolutely necessary F would dilute it (it's not as if HP was so healthy that it could throw + cash around that it didn't really need to).e   > F > Alpha may have been asleep for a couple of years, but so has PaRisc.  ? And now they're both dead - just haven't yet stopped twitching..  G > Nevertheless, resurecting Alpha would still be far easier and cheapereJ > and less troublesome for customers than going to a totally new platform.  I Having HP go out of business trying to resurrect them would be even more mF troublesome for customers, I suspect.  HP should continue to sell the E platforms as long as customers want them, but (one more time, absent cI some wonderful idea that would lead to a significantly superior product) ,3 should look elsewhere for their longer-term future.r  D Intel and HP wasted vast amounts of cash and resources developing a I product with no clear advantage over its competition (even though it now iH may be able to survive given that the best competition, POWER excepted, H has disappeared).  Hopefully HP won't be so stupid that it repeats that  error.  A When you've already *got* a leadership product, throwing it away nI represents gross incompetence.  But so does trying to resurrect it later iD when you have no real reason to think it can regain that leadership.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:55:09 -0500p' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110qkf4302ipf04@corp.supernews.com>   John Smith wrote:d > Tom Linden wrote:h > F >>On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +0000 (UTC), <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> >>wrote: >> >>> >>>Also how long would it take to port Tandem NSK to PA-RISC ?E >>>How close was the port to Alpha to completion when the decision to  >>>move to IA64 
 >>>was made ?d >>G >>Maybe the question that should be asked, is how long would it take tosE >>provide migration tools from NSK to VMS?  Or alternatively, to whom)% >>can we sell Non-Stop business unit?l >>? >>I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units.t >  >  > 0 > IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat. >  > --/ > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.  >  > D Just curious, if they'd be so interested in it now, why didn't they & 'snap it up' prior to Compaq doing so?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:57:34 -0800p# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>c Subject: Re: HP should....( Message-ID: <opsl17l8jezgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:52:14 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>    wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote:n2 >> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:59:23 -0500, JF Mezei   ( >> <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: >> >>> Tom Linden wrote:w >>>v >>>>  The realK >>>> value in the Digital component of HP is VMS, Alpha has lost all its   r >>>> value.  >>>a >>> H >>> There is one aspect of Alpha: installed base and available software,F >>> much of which is no longer developped and thus not be available onJ >>> Alpha's successor. Continuing the Alpha processor ratins that softwareI >>> whereas moving to a new platform requires VMS start from scratch with  >>> software availability. > C > This is an argument for Alpha, and VAX.  It's a limited argument.u > K >>> Note that this is also a reason HP-UX customers are still buying PaRisc I >>> based machines instead of that unwanted IA64 thing. But VMS is in a  t >>> much= >>> worse shape than HP-UX in terms of application ecosystem.yI >>   Face it Alpha is dead.  To make VMS a viable business it _will_ needcA >> to use a supplier for its chips such as Power /and/or Opteron.D > L > Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likely history. To  J > what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it would take, and  " > for what, just another "me too". > E > There are 2 issues, near term, and far future.  In the near term,  rI > continuing to sell Alphas, with whatever enhancements can be done for  eC > EV7, is one solution.  Using the itanic when it's a fit is also   J > reasonable.  For far term, I can see a costly and tremendous effort to  K > pull Alpha back to the front of the pack, just to see that new advances  rL > have made all today's techniques obsolete.  All dressed up, with nowhere   > to go. >0I The cost argument, BTW, also applies to Itanic, its ongoing development  l costs K can not be amortised over a large run, as had been envisaged and was indeed>G part of the reason for embarking on the program, at least that is how Io interpreted it.r     > Dave       -- tC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:10:20 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110qlbjact654b5@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:2 > Dave Froble wrote: > G >>Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likely history.rG >>To what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it would take, & >>and for what, just another "me too". >  >  > Competitive advantage. > I > HP has learned that there is no money to be made in commodity. IBM knewS4 > that a long time ago and has already taken action. > B > So if HP is to succeed, will it turn itself into a low cost DellD > competitor, or will it try to find some true technological edge to( > differentiate itself from the others ? > F > Alpha may have been asleep for a couple of years, but so has PaRisc.G > Nevertheless, resurecting Alpha would still be far easier and cheaper J > and less troublesome for customers than going to a totally new platform.  D The itanic, whether you and I and anyone else likes it, is here and  running VMS.  G How long do you think it would take to put together a project to again bG work on Alpha?  Hours?  Days?  Weeks?  Months?  The last option listed tI is most likely.  That's before they start to do anything.  It's not just oG the group(s) working on 'real' stuff, DEC had plenty of research going tB on.  You may have noticed my commenting on 'EV10'?  That was pure I research into an idea, not anything that would be a product.  Compaq did o? a real good job of slashing both R&D, with emphysis on the 'R'.e  H So, Ok, you do get both some R and some D going again.  How long before I you get anything out of 'D'?  How long before 'D' even decides what it's tF going to be working on?  Don't even ask about timing for the 'R' part.  F The real issue in all this is what's going to come out of all the 'R' E some others were smart enough to keep doing?  A week ago many had no 1H knowledge of what IBM, Sony, and Toshiba were up to.  It's too early to I tell if they're on to something, but, some new technologies are going to aE emerge.  Blowing money on the last century's technology isn't a real  
 good idea.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:00:55 -0800t# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>i Subject: Re: HP should....( Message-ID: <opsl17rtg8zgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:40 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote: G >> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +0000 (UTC), <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk>c	 >> wrote:o >>? >>> Also how long would it take to port Tandem NSK to PA-RISC ? F >>> How close was the port to Alpha to completion when the decision to >>> move to IA64 >>> was made ? >>H >> Maybe the question that should be asked, is how long would it take toF >> provide migration tools from NSK to VMS?  Or alternatively, to whom& >> can we sell Non-Stop business unit? >>@ >> I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units. >5 >c0 > IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.F Probably not for the product, but the customer.  BTW, what are their  	 revenues?e >h > --/ > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.e >s >o       -- AC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/t   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Feb 2005 01:12:55 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <3753gnF575t60U2@individual.net>  = In article <5vWdnXURA-ko1ZDfRVn-qg@metrocastcablevision.com>,e+ 	Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:3 > JF Mezei wrote:p >> Dave Froble wrote:I >> mH >>>Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likely history.H >>>To what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it would take,' >>>and for what, just another "me too".a >> i >> n >> Competitive advantage.n > C > I've made repeated suggestions that the only way any competitive -I > advantage would accrue to a resurrected Alpha platform would be for it  J > to incorporate something superior to the competition, and so far no one 4 > (including you) has come up with any such feature.  6 It does have a competitive advantage.  It can run VMS.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:33:42 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>q Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108171325.9dbc052da6dc29f49df18ad213b16917@teranews>   Bill Todd wrote:I > Alpha *would have* led in SMT technology had EV8 been completed, but byaJ > the time any SMT Alpha could get out now that technology will be old hat  G Yes. But the point is that a project started today would go beyond SMT, E just like other chip makers are already looking beyond SMT. There areeG parts of EV7 and EV8 that are still usable, and there is experience and F inspiration from Power and Sparc and perhasp even the 8086 that can beE used to start a new Alpha today aleready ahead of where it was at the 2 time Compaq slowed and then stopped work on Alpha.  B > > HP has learned that there is no money to be made in commodity. >  > You mean like in printers?  F Printers are far from commodity. They are highly proprietary with muchG done to prevent one from even refilling ink genuine cartridges. Heck HP-D even now prevents ink from one continent from being used on printers from other continents.  H > The question, of course, is where to look for that edge, given limitedD > resources.  And since any such edge absolutely *requires* a lot ofI > system-level work, adding anything else that isn't absolutely necessary G > would dilute it (it's not as if HP was so healthy that it could throwr- > cash around that it didn't really need to).   H Consider the 3 billion they threw at Intel for no specific return. SeemsK to me that HP has had plenty of ink money to throw at Carly's pet projects.r    J > Having HP go out of business trying to resurrect them would be even moreG > troublesome for customers, I suspect.  HP should continue to sell theIF > platforms as long as customers want them, but (one more time, absentJ > some wonderful idea that would lead to a significantly superior product)5 > should look elsewhere for their longer-term future.a    G When you look at HP's enterprise business, what is more important ? ThetH ecosystem of the installed base and exsiting software, or switching chip2 in the hopes to that the new chip will be better ?    E > Intel and HP wasted vast amounts of cash and resources developing ae6 > product with no clear advantage over its competition  E Yes. But the problem with IA64 was its original mamdate which lead toIF too radical a change as well as too may requirements which resulted inC IA64 being a failure because it tried to be everything to everyone.d  B Just because IA64 is a commercial failure doesn't mean that with a? leaner and meaner chip such as Alpha, HP couldn't be succesful.i  J > represents gross incompetence.  But so does trying to resurrect it laterF > when you have no real reason to think it can regain that leadership.  H So, the minute you agree that IA64 is a goner, what should HP replace it$ with ? Is it only option the 8086 ?   > If Intel and AMD can scale the 8086 to match Power and Sparc'sF enterprise capabilities, then it may work. But that may take more time% than ramping Alpha or PaRisc back up.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:33:10 -05000( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <Eq6dnYACfqJKwZDfRVn-2A@metrocastcablevision.com>e   Tom Linden wrote:LH > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:40 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   ...   1 >> IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.e > H > Probably not for the product, but the customer.  BTW, what are their   > revenues?n  C The same Compaq slide that stated VMS annual system revenues as $4 tE billion and Tru64's as $3 billion in March, 2001, pegged NSK's at $2 dI billion.  And in rather marked contrast to VMS's and Tru64's, NSK's were A< reported as holding approximately steady the following fall.  9 Which may say nothing about what they are now, of course.6   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:35:43 -0500h( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <Eq6dnYMCfqLtwJDfRVn-2A@metrocastcablevision.com>    Bill Todd wrote:   ...   E > The same Compaq slide that stated VMS annual system revenues as $4  G > billion and Tru64's as $3 billion in March, 2001, pegged NSK's at $2 hK > billion.  And in rather marked contrast to VMS's and Tru64's, NSK's were  > > reported as holding approximately steady the following fall. > ; > Which may say nothing about what they are now, of course.n >  > - bill  H Whoops - I'm really not sure whether the above figure applied solely to D NSK or to all Tandem-related revenue, which may still have included G their 'Integrity' Unix servers back then (nor have I any idea what the p latter may have amounted to).m   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:57:03 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>T Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <coidncpPG_3t_5DfRVn-pQ@igs.net>   Dave Froble wrote: > John Smith wrote:5 >> Tom Linden wrote: >>H >>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +0000 (UTC), <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk>
 >>> wrote: >>>R >>>@@ >>>> Also how long would it take to port Tandem NSK to PA-RISC ?G >>>> How close was the port to Alpha to completion when the decision toy >>>> move to IA64e >>>> was made ?  >>>pF >>> Maybe the question that should be asked, is how long would it takeE >>> to provide migration tools from NSK to VMS?  Or alternatively, toe, >>> whom can we sell Non-Stop business unit? >>> A >>> I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units.h >> >> >>1 >> IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.  >> >> --h0 >> OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style. >> >>E > Just curious, if they'd be so interested in it now, why didn't they ( > 'snap it up' prior to Compaq doing so?    - They would have had to buy the whole company.R  I Now at HP, the Board is having second/third/fourth thoughts about whetherdE they should just be a printing company. With that, everything else isiH potentially for sale and probably piecemeal if they thought it would get them more money.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:53:30 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>w Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <coidnctPG_3t_5DfRVn-pQ@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:? > In article <5vWdnXURA-ko1ZDfRVn-qg@metrocastcablevision.com>,a, > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Dave Froble wrote: >>>oA >>>> Much as I hate to, I have to admit that Alpha is most likelysG >>>> history. To what purpose should HP spend the considerable money it 5 >>>> would take, and for what, just another "me too".c >>>> >>>e >>> Competitive advantage. >>C >> I've made repeated suggestions that the only way any competitive F >> advantage would accrue to a resurrected Alpha platform would be forF >> it to incorporate something superior to the competition, and so far< >> no one (including you) has come up with any such feature. >o8 > It does have a competitive advantage.  It can run VMS. >" > bill    K So what whomever winds up with VMS (not necessarily HP after the new CEO isgG brought in) ought to do is port VMS to everything and then let SI's and J VAR's sell it on whatever they want and have a 1st level/2nd-level supportG arrangement - SI/VAR handles 1st level and can sell a 2nd level supporte% contract direct with VMS Engineering.w   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style..   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:01:10 -0500-# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>7 Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <7eCdnbR8ZfT7_pDfRVn-vg@igs.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > Tom Linden wrote:.B >> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:40 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com>	 >> wrote:e >  > ...  >>2 >>> IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat. >>G >> Probably not for the product, but the customer.  BTW, what are theire >> revenues? > D > The same Compaq slide that stated VMS annual system revenues as $4F > billion and Tru64's as $3 billion in March, 2001, pegged NSK's at $2E > billion.  And in rather marked contrast to VMS's and Tru64's, NSK'soC > were reported as holding approximately steady the following fall.t >e; > Which may say nothing about what they are now, of course.t >a > - bill    B NSK, while not a big line item in the HP sales forecast, has loyalH customers....not too many NSK installations are switching to Windows forD it's reliability, nor to Linux for its transaction processing. ThoseI platforms are not perceived to be threats to NSK, either in reality or inc perception.u  K HP has done nothing to position VMS in the same light even though in almostoL every way it is as robust as NSK when properly configured, and under certain circumstance more robust.    --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:29:56 -0800)# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>M Subject: Re: HP should....( Message-ID: <opsl2bv6pgzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:01:10 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > Bill Todd wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote:C >>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:40 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com>u
 >>> wrote: >> >> ... >>3 >>>> IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.  >>>iH >>> Probably not for the product, but the customer.  BTW, what are their
 >>> revenues?  >>E >> The same Compaq slide that stated VMS annual system revenues as $4 G >> billion and Tru64's as $3 billion in March, 2001, pegged NSK's at $2aF >> billion.  And in rather marked contrast to VMS's and Tru64's, NSK'sD >> were reported as holding approximately steady the following fall. >>< >> Which may say nothing about what they are now, of course. >>	 >> - billo >f >sD > NSK, while not a big line item in the HP sales forecast, has loyalJ > customers....not too many NSK installations are switching to Windows forF > it's reliability, nor to Linux for its transaction processing. ThoseK > platforms are not perceived to be threats to NSK, either in reality or ins
 > perception.3J Stratus has done a fault-tolerant version for Windows, so that may change.1 But, how many 9's can you get from a VMS cluster?s >sH > HP has done nothing to position VMS in the same light even though in   > almostH > every way it is as robust as NSK when properly configured, and under  	 > certain  > circumstance more robust.a >n > --/ > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.  >- >        --  C Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:19:59 -05000' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110qsulmhh3ko2d@corp.supernews.com>   John Smith wrote:  > Dave Froble wrote: >  >>John Smith wrote:  >> >>>Tom Linden wrote: >>>  >>>"H >>>>On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +0000 (UTC), <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk>
 >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>@ >>>>>Also how long would it take to port Tandem NSK to PA-RISC ?G >>>>>How close was the port to Alpha to completion when the decision toe >>>>>move to IA640 >>>>>was made ?m >>>>F >>>>Maybe the question that should be asked, is how long would it takeE >>>>to provide migration tools from NSK to VMS?  Or alternatively, to4, >>>>whom can we sell Non-Stop business unit? >>>>A >>>>I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units.  >>>w >>>e >>>t1 >>>IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.  >>>m >>>--I0 >>>OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style. >>>u >>>  >>E >>Just curious, if they'd be so interested in it now, why didn't they ( >>'snap it up' prior to Compaq doing so? >  >  > / > They would have had to buy the whole company.H  I I'm assuming that Compaq did buy the whole company.  What part of "prior  * to Compaq doing so" didn't you understand?  K > Now at HP, the Board is having second/third/fourth thoughts about whether0G > they should just be a printing company. With that, everything else is J > potentially for sale and probably piecemeal if they thought it would get > them more money. >  > --/ > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.e >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:12:27 -0500p' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>e Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110qsgi8tg2681e@corp.supernews.com>   Tom Linden wrote:t  K > The cost argument, BTW, also applies to Itanic, its ongoing development  t > coststM > can not be amortised over a large run, as had been envisaged and was indeedeI > part of the reason for embarking on the program, at least that is how I  > interpreted it.   I Yeah, but that's Intel's problem.  They wanted it.  Now they got it.  As o) long as they make then, why not use them?m   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:19:04 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>s Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108177634.6e18020a1f574cea234ba2ef9dc532fc@teranews>   Dave Froble wrote:E > Just curious, if they'd be so interested in it now, why didn't they.( > 'snap it up' prior to Compaq doing so?  B Bob Palmer started negotiations with Pfeiffer 3 years prior to theH actual transaction. That would put it in a 1995/1996 time frame. IBM wasG just recovering from its near bankrupcy at that time and Gerstner's wasuA just starting to see success in reshaping mentality and corporate A culture at IBM.  Gerstner was not found of takeovers. Integrating S Digital into IBM at the time would not have been good for IBM and IBM shareholders.e  C IBM was later offered to buy Compaq and when Gerstner looked at thehD numbers, he immediatly dismissed the idea laughing at the investmentG bankers who were selling this as the next best thing since sliced bear.sG Such a transaction would have obliterated IBM,s profits with 50 billion 2 over 5 years and put IBM i serious loss situation.  F History books will call it the curse of VMS. Digital went down because5 of it. Compaq went down because it. HP is going down.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:11:42 -0500t# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>b Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <EsCdne52Y8lz7pDfRVn-1g@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:t > Dave Froble wrote:F >> Just curious, if they'd be so interested in it now, why didn't they) >> 'snap it up' prior to Compaq doing so?f > D > Bob Palmer started negotiations with Pfeiffer 3 years prior to theF > actual transaction. That would put it in a 1995/1996 time frame. IBM > waseE > just recovering from its near bankrupcy at that time and Gerstner'sS > was C > just starting to see success in reshaping mentality and corporatelC > culture at IBM.  Gerstner was not found of takeovers. IntegratinghG > Digital into IBM at the time would not have been good for IBM and IBMF > shareholders.- >0E > IBM was later offered to buy Compaq and when Gerstner looked at thedF > numbers, he immediatly dismissed the idea laughing at the investmentC > bankers who were selling this as the next best thing since sliced" > bear.hA > Such a transaction would have obliterated IBM,s profits with 50 	 > billiong4 > over 5 years and put IBM i serious loss situation. >?H > History books will call it the curse of VMS. Digital went down because7 > of it. Compaq went down because it. HP is going down.   H Wrong. DEC and Compaq when down because of what they didn't do with it - create demand for it.e   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:15:09 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <RN6dncBGHOYg6ZDfRVn-pw@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote: H > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:01:10 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >  >> Bill Todd wrote:t >>> Tom Linden wrote:AD >>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:40 -0500, John Smith <a@nonymous.com> >>>> wrote:> >>>t >>> ...d >>> 4 >>>>> IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat. >>>>C >>>> Probably not for the product, but the customer.  BTW, what area >>>> their revenues? >>> F >>> The same Compaq slide that stated VMS annual system revenues as $4H >>> billion and Tru64's as $3 billion in March, 2001, pegged NSK's at $2G >>> billion.  And in rather marked contrast to VMS's and Tru64's, NSK's E >>> were reported as holding approximately steady the following fall.r >>>a= >>> Which may say nothing about what they are now, of course.n >>>t
 >>> - bill >> >>E >> NSK, while not a big line item in the HP sales forecast, has loyal G >> customers....not too many NSK installations are switching to WindowsnE >> for it's reliability, nor to Linux for its transaction processing.>D >> Those platforms are not perceived to be threats to NSK, either in >> reality or in perception.D > Stratus has done a fault-tolerant version for Windows, so that may; > change. But, how many 9's can you get from a VMS cluster?.     How many 9's do you want?s0 The military has 'Dial-a-Yield' for their nukes.  L Just don't forget that the number of real 9's also depends on a lot of other factors outside the buildings.     --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:30:19 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>h Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108178308.253eec1bda50833aaff09b2b2eb6d286@teranews>   Dave Froble wrote:  mJ > Yeah, but that's Intel's problem.  They wanted it.  Now they got it.  As+ > long as they make then, why not use them?p  D It takes a few years to port to a new platform. If Intel has begn toB scale down IA64, reduce its target market niche, and you know thatB revenus are not impressive and rumour tha the only reason Intel is? keepiong IA64 alive is contractual obligatiosn with HP, one cansA reasonably guess that as soon as the contract ends, so does IA64.a  D So, when rumour sof IA64's demise become credible, you need to start looking at alternatives.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:40:08 -0500p# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s Subject: Re: HP should...., Message-ID: <gcidnWTnnKEE55DfRVn-oQ@igs.net>   Dave Froble wrote: > John Smith wrote:e >> Dave Froble wrote:R >> >>> John Smith wrote:D >>>0 >>>> Tom Linden wrote: >>>> >>>>/ >>>>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:17:34 +0000 (UTC),i' >>>>> <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote:e >>>>>s >>>>>  >>>>>tB >>>>>> Also how long would it take to port Tandem NSK to PA-RISC ?F >>>>>> How close was the port to Alpha to completion when the decision >>>>>> to move to IA64 >>>>>> was made ?. >>>>>@H >>>>> Maybe the question that should be asked, is how long would it takeG >>>>> to provide migration tools from NSK to VMS?  Or alternatively, toa. >>>>> whom can we sell Non-Stop business unit? >>>>>yC >>>>> I would give odds that HP will start shedding business units.  >>>> >>>> >>>>3 >>>> IBM would probably snap up NSK in a heartbeat.. >>>> >>>> --n2 >>>> OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style. >>>> >>>> >>>lG >>> Just curious, if they'd be so interested in it now, why didn't theyl* >>> 'snap it up' prior to Compaq doing so? >> >> >>0 >> They would have had to buy the whole company. >fC > I'm assuming that Compaq did buy the whole company.  What part ofa3 > "prior to Compaq doing so" didn't you understand?e    K I mis-read your post because I was thinking about Gerstner declining a shotc a Compaq as a whole.  G As Tom Linden said, I think IBM would take Tandem because it would then F pretty much give IBM the entire datacenter at many banks and insuranceE companies -- Z/OS mainframe, AIX, NSK, and the licence to print moneybA without competition therein. Plus some other goodies like Atalla.  --  - OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.b   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:06:08 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108180455.16892f4728237531d31032c7cae41351@teranews>   John Smith wrote:nI > As Tom Linden said, I think IBM would take Tandem because it would then.H > pretty much give IBM the entire datacenter at many banks and insuranceG > companies -- Z/OS mainframe, AIX, NSK, and the licence to print moneySC > without competition therein. Plus some other goodies like Atalla.a  B Tandem also brings with it lots of bragging rights. Non-stop faultG tolerant, as well as the glamour of having the stock exchanges and sometO telecom applications. But it is a small business in the grand scheme of things.e   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 19:18:17 -0800# From: tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.comv% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina firedMC Message-ID: <1108178297.687053.130200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   E so many good people lost their jobs b/c of her incompetence. she will D walk away with millions.  we need a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship of' the proletariat to remedy these abuses.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:41:12 -0500a# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> % Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired>, Message-ID: <wa6dnectiPNE55DfRVn-rw@igs.net>  $ tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com wrote:G > so many good people lost their jobs b/c of her incompetence. she will,F > walk away with millions.  we need a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship of) > the proletariat to remedy these abuses.o    	 Whatever.n   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:51:35 +0800e From: prep@prep.synonet.comr6 Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend....- Message-ID: <87fz03jdrs.fsf@prep.synonet.com>i  - young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:u  y > In article <q_iOd.68235$K72.8342776@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> writes:c  d4 >> How may people watch the Superbowl?  60 million?   0 > http://www.superbowl.com/features/general_info  ? > Super Bowl XXXVIII TV audience: Last year's game was the mostgF > watched program ever with 144.4 million viewers. The 10 most-watched- > programs in TV history are all Super Bowls.n  & More than Apollo 11? I don't think so.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.*@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Feb 2005 19:08:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)6 Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend...., Message-ID: <374e5bF59cjt4U1@individual.net>  - In article <87fz03jdrs.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,H 	prep@prep.synonet.com writes:/ > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:  > z >> In article <q_iOd.68235$K72.8342776@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> writes: >   5 >>> How may people watch the Superbowl?  60 million? i > 1 >> http://www.superbowl.com/features/general_info  > @ >> Super Bowl XXXVIII TV audience: Last year's game was the mostG >> watched program ever with 144.4 million viewers. The 10 most-watchedh. >> programs in TV history are all Super Bowls. > ( > More than Apollo 11? I don't think so.  < I know it's hard for modern civilized man to even comprehend> life without television, but I can assure you that at the time> of Apollo 11 there were a lot fewer TV's in both the world and> the USofA.  Satellite TV wasn't even a gleam in some inventors? eye.  Most of the world didn't get to watch it live and neitheru0 did a lot of people in the states.  (I didn't!!)   bill  t   -- hJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:56:39 +0800e From: prep@prep.synonet.comn Subject: Re: Lexical to get ACLs- Message-ID: <87brarjdjc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>l  4 David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  E > ...which is fine until, for example, a 4.1GB file no longer fits onlE > an RZ29 (3.99GBF). Then you're screwed, unless you have some RZ1DDso > among your "surplus" gear.  / Has the cat got your MOUNT? Not a /BIND at all.p   -- H< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:56:22 -0500e% From: "DAVID TURNER" <DAVID@HPAQ.NET>w1 Subject: Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 0 Message-ID: <110qo1lo1trhg65@news.supernews.com>  6 orders in inco terms require a certain amount of data. that data was missing, ergo...  + "attach this to you order" means just that.A3 we responded within 1 week of receiving the letter.I   dt   -- m Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 180, Savannah GA 31404i Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.coma    : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:VflJ92fs++jm@eisner.encompasserve.org...uA > In article <110nu5pe30e0df9@news.supernews.com>, "DAVID TURNER"e <DAVID@HPAQ.NET> writes:1 > > we received a cheque stating "no phone calls"  >tK > ...along with the specified form from your web site for the goods offered'H > there.  That page (http://islandco.com/ds10l_custom_system.html) says: > * > "Pricing below is current and accurate." >    andI > "Print out this page for your records and use as an attachment for youri order" >i > > Enough said5 >4B > The implication being that you are incapable of writing a letter > explaining your problem. >5A > The notion that it took _FIVE_WEEKS_ for you to attach a stickytG > note and say you were rejecting the order confirms that literacy gap.i   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 22:33:55 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 1 Subject: Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 3 Message-ID: <7CJ$TyHWC8Av@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  X In article <110qo1lo1trhg65@news.supernews.com>, "DAVID TURNER" <DAVID@HPAQ.NET> writes:8 > orders in inco terms require a certain amount of data.  > that data was missing, ergo...  B There is no such specification on your web site of additional dataB required.  The order was on the voucher attached to the check.  IfA it was not to your satisfaction, you should have responded asking42 for what you wanted, not just returning the check.  - > "attach this to you order" means just that.   D Is your complaint that it was in the same envelope but not stapled ?  5 > we responded within 1 week of receiving the letter./  + The order was postmarked December 23, 2004.o  B The person from your shop who put the illegible signature in Box AB of the Certified Mail receipt cleverly skipped the requirements toA print their name in Box B of the form and to indicate the date off delivery in Box C of the form.  E What you did not count on was the fact that the Post Office maintains C a web site showing that you signed for the check on January 3, 2005 + as Certified Mail 7099 3400 0010 7008 1166.l  B Your rejection of the order arrived in Cambridge as Certified MailB 7002 0510 0001 5250 8682, delivered February 7, 2005, which anyone@ wondering about your credibility can also check on www.usps.com.  
 But you said:W  5 > we responded within 1 week of receiving the letter.t  A Does this mean that without our two follow-up letters you _never_w# would have responded to our order ?b   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:40:17 +0800e From: prep@prep.synonet.come9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar-- Message-ID: <873bw3jbim.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:f   > Stanley F. Quayle wrote:. >> On 10 Feb 2005 at 15:38, Dave Froble wrote:  F >>>3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and >>>washers.h  B >> You must have not seen a rx2600.  Make those heavy-weight steel >> angles...  E > Steel is very strong.  Most non-engineers, and even some engineers,tF > go overboard because something might 'look' flimsy.  For example, anD > AN4 aircraft bolt, (good alloy, 1/4 inch) has a tensil strength ofE > (from memory) over 100,000 lbs.  (Ok, maybe I should go and re-readuF > the book, but they are very strong.)  A 3/32 inch stainless cable is > good for 900 lbs.e  ( Good idea, yield of an AN4 is 3130lb...   @ But a `Black Book' will cost a damb sight more than $5 nodays :(   -- R< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:16:27 -0500e' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 9 Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminare0 Message-ID: <110q7l5ckmkum9b@corp.supernews.com>   prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:+ > Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:d >  >  >>Stanley F. Quayle wrote: >>. >>>On 10 Feb 2005 at 15:38, Dave Froble wrote: >  > G >>>>3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and  >>>>washers. >  > B >>>You must have not seen a rx2600.  Make those heavy-weight steel >>>angles... >  > E >>Steel is very strong.  Most non-engineers, and even some engineers,hF >>go overboard because something might 'look' flimsy.  For example, anD >>AN4 aircraft bolt, (good alloy, 1/4 inch) has a tensil strength ofE >>(from memory) over 100,000 lbs.  (Ok, maybe I should go and re-readhF >>the book, but they are very strong.)  A 3/32 inch stainless cable is >>good for 900 lbs.t >  > * > Good idea, yield of an AN4 is 3130lb...   F Yeah, I was wondering a bit as I wrote that.  I'm thinking the figure G might be something I read that was talking per-square-inch.  One thing  I I'm sure of, the bolts are probably the strongest things in the aircraft i I build.  B > But a `Black Book' will cost a damb sight more than $5 nodays :( >   3 Easier to just get the specs from the manufacturer.>   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:52:40 GMTo/ From: "Jeff Goodwin" <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com>t Subject: Re: SLS deade2 Message-ID: <c28Pd.17$vK5.13@twister.nyroc.rr.com>  I <Usenet> wrote in message news:420cd756$0$1268$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...sF > From the latest OpenVMS roadmap PDF, document, dated February 2005 : >e >uL > Storage Library System V2.9J (Q1 2005) will contain support for VMS V7.3-2 >cJ > and V8.2 on Alpha Only. Subsequent releases will concentrate on remedial > fixes and  >tL > support for new versions of OpenVMS. There will be no support for new tape	 > devices  >sK > after V2.9H timeframe, and no new features will be introduced. No port to/ > Integrity is > 
 > planned. >- >-K > This, as far as I know, is a complete change of directions regarding thisG > product. I didn't knowH > before, and the only place where I saw it is this PDF. Although I have this > product undermE > support contract, I have never been informed officially. Many other3 > customers are probablyK > in the same situation. I have been asked by a fellow HP employee to write 
 > Mark GorhamtL > about this and state my disagreement. Perhaps other dissapointed customers > should dow > the same ?  L HP has been releasing conflicting information on porting SLS to IPF for someI time.  I've seen some presentations that list it as being ported and somet that don't.e  L It would be interesting to know the reasons why HP will not move SLS to IPF.F As it was moved from VAX to Alpha, I suspect it's not a porting issue.   >e > Marc Van Dyck. >e >c >e >i >a >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:07:06 -0500r( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com> Subject: Re: SLS dead|/ Message-ID: <00A3F3DC.325023E5.3@tachysoft.com>r   >From: <Usenet>| >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms >Subject: SLS dead& >Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:03:34 +0100 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal   > B >From the last OpenVMS roadmap PDF document, dated february 2005 : > K >Storage Library System V2.9J (Q1 2005) will contain support for VMS V7.3-2> > I >and V8.2 on Alpha Only. Subsequent releases will concentrate on remedialo
 >fixes and >aK >support for new versions of OpenVMS. There will be no support for new tape  >devices >eJ >after V2.9H timeframe, and no new features will be introduced. No port to
 >Integrity isr >l	 >planned.n >e >dJ >This looks like a complete change of directions for this product. And for >me, it looks like a disaster,, >specially the decision to abandon the port. >aL >I got this info from the abovementionned PDF document, distributed to me in >through an unofficialI >channel. The info did not appear anywhere else I know. But kindlt asked,b >H.P. confirmed. How> >many other customers are impacted but still not aware of it ? >.F >A fellow H.P. employee urged me to write my concerns and disagreement >directly to Mark Gorham,gG >which I will do. Perhaps other impacted customers should do the same ?  >n >s >Marc Van Dyck.i >t    O The TAPESYS port to itanium is in progress.  The itanium builds have been done,o now in the testing stage.  g  L This is the closest functional equivalent to SLS, though it is a third-partyN product.  The original SLS actually *was* TAPESYS, taken from a snapshot of anK much earlier version.  The two products have diverged since then, but stills have many similarities.h   WaynetO ===============================================================================rN Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html   sO ===============================================================================hP Larry(sniffing):"I smell something awful." Moe:"Yeah, well don't brag about it."   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:10:29 -0500u# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>p Subject: Re: SLS deadm, Message-ID: <tuCdneyV5rVEsJDfRVn-1w@igs.net>   Jeff Goodwin wrote:f > <Usenet> wrote in messaget1 > news:420cd756$0$1268$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be... G >> From the latest OpenVMS roadmap PDF, document, dated February 2005 :  >> >>F >> Storage Library System V2.9J (Q1 2005) will contain support for VMS	 >> V7.3-2i >>B >> and V8.2 on Alpha Only. Subsequent releases will concentrate on >> remedial fixes andr >>D >> support for new versions of OpenVMS. There will be no support for >> new tape devicese >>D >> after V2.9H timeframe, and no new features will be introduced. No >> port to Integrity isu >> >> planned.l >> >>G >> This, as far as I know, is a complete change of directions regarding  >> this product. I didn't knowD >> before, and the only place where I saw it is this PDF. Although I >> have this product underF >> support contract, I have never been informed officially. Many other >> customers are probablytF >> in the same situation. I have been asked by a fellow HP employee to >> write Mark GorhamC >> about this and state my disagreement. Perhaps other dissapointed- >> customers should do
 >> the same ?0 >0E > HP has been releasing conflicting information on porting SLS to IPF D > for some time.  I've seen some presentations that list it as being > ported and some that don't.b >0F > It would be interesting to know the reasons why HP will not move SLSA > to IPF. As it was moved from VAX to Alpha, I suspect it's not at > porting issue.    K Probably a 'market share' issue. Maybe HP is looking at the sales figues ofaI IA64/VMS and figuring out that it isn't worth the effort given that therenL aren't many larger customers (the 660 chosen ones) running small VMS systemsE that use SLS, and that by the time the larger-scale IA64 systems (32+a9 processors) are available, IA64 will be cancelled anyway.t --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:32:57 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.comj1 Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have?D- Message-ID: <877jlfjbuu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ) "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:t  F > Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada.C > Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, 7 > but I am sure they will see the value in this vision.o  ? Don't they do that already? They certainly don't use english...c   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.p@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:00:34 -0500y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>-4 Subject: Re: Swiftnet banking available for OpenVMS!B Message-ID: <1108162139.907ef75997859fd937dc5c630f288c02@teranews>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > A > this article states that this new version of swift is replacingg > the old one ...o > > > http://www.banktech.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=17603248   ##? By early 2003 Wachovia had a plan for the overall transition to  SWIFTNet, and the D   company installed Connect:Direct for SwiftNET mid-year on Sun Unix
 hardware. 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I emailed IBMs ceo9. > and posted the letter I got back in response, > here on this site about a year ago ... IBM' > basically thinks vms is not worth the ( > investment ... why?  NIH syndrome (not- > invented here) or just plain stupidity?  Do3, > they understand what a market vms on power > would be?- >   F Until, if ever, IBM is the owner of VMS, saying good things about the & product is not in IBM's best interest.  H Say you're a car salesman.  Do you tell a customer "Yeah, our nix model G is nice, but Slick Sam's down the street has a much better vms model."?X   I think not.  E Should IBM ever become the owner of VMS, then the story will be 100% Z
 different.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 14:15:59 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler);@ Subject: Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation?3 Message-ID: <McMJOrWnSBbs@eisner.encompasserve.org>F  _ In article <05021109005496_27001145@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes:(/ > From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>2 > : >> >>UNZIP should have the option of forcing case UP/DOWN. >> >M >> >    When would restoring what's in the archive be worse than artificially>% >> > setting the case at restoration?R >> WI >> There are some programs that have problems with lowercase filenames onR >> ODS-5 devices.n > % >    Example?  (What could go wrong?)!  F    I once had an application that would scan a file name from the userF    and verify that every character in it was supported by early ODS-2,H    including only uppercase and special characters.  Someone had updatedG    it to add _.  On the excuse of adding $ I ripped out the check as I <I    was tired of remembering that it alone cared about case while designed^I    for and running on a case insentitive file system.  File open failure >0    for any cause was already handled adaquately.  E    I've seen parts of CDE, traditional DECwindows, and browsers that LC    don't operate correctly with ODS-5 because they for some reason M=    enforce thier notions of what a VMS file name can contain.'  D    Others are simply limited by using FAB or NAM where NAML would beG    required.  I now have several RMS based programs which conditionallyTD    compile NAML vs. NAM.  Some RTLs such as Fortran's, have not been5    updated for NAML on the versions I have access to.*   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2005 14:16:59 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e@ Subject: Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation?3 Message-ID: <FVC0M6ZdnIpr@eisner.encompasserve.org>&  } In article <craigberry-5AAFE8.10240211022005@news.isp.giganews.com>, "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> writes:W > G > MMS has trouble processing implicit rules when the filenames are not 5 > all upper case."  B    The name doesn't need to be upper case, but the types often do.B    I have a .com file that upcases only the types because of this.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:20:47 -0600 (CST),* From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda)@ Subject: Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation?2 Message-ID: <05021116204699_27001146@antinode.org>  < > >> >>UNZIP should have the option of forcing case UP/DOWN.	 > > [...];' > >    Example?  (What could go wrong?)O  ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)N   > [...]2G >    I've seen parts of CDE, traditional DECwindows, and browsers that 6E >    don't operate correctly with ODS-5 because they for some reason 5? >    enforce thier notions of what a VMS file name can contain.T > F >    Others are simply limited by using FAB or NAM where NAML would beI >    required.  I now have several RMS based programs which conditionally]F >    compile NAML vs. NAM.  Some RTLs such as Fortran's, have not been7 >    updated for NAML on the versions I have access to.%  6    I'm certainly getting tired of searching for "fna".  6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>  F > MMS has trouble processing implicit rules when the filenames are not > all upper case.X  <    Ok, but assuming that the (new) option to force ODS2 nameB simplification also up-cases (which the current code does not do),H wouldn't that be good enough?  The question is whether anyone would everD need an up-cased name with, say, multiple dots.  I'd prefer to avoid adding the extra mess.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode-org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:01:57 -0600X6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>@ Subject: Re: Zip 3.0 v. ODS5: Preferences for case preservation?D Message-ID: <craigberry-049381.18015611022005@news.isp.giganews.com>  2 In article <05021116204699_27001146@antinode.org>,,  sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote:  8 > From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> > H > > MMS has trouble processing implicit rules when the filenames are not > > all upper case.@ > > >    Ok, but assuming that the (new) option to force ODS2 nameD > simplification also up-cases (which the current code does not do),! > wouldn't that be good enough?  3  , Sounds good to me.  That's what VMSTAR does.  + > The question is whether anyone would everlF > need an up-cased name with, say, multiple dots.  I'd prefer to avoid > adding the extra mess.    ! I agree it doesn't seem worth it.$   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.085 ************************