0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 14 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 89      Contents:% ACMS - How to determine applications? ) Re: ACMS - How to determine applications? " Canada Encompass event 24th on Feb/ Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) / Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) / Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) ; Re: Coverting filenames from unix style to VMS style in DCL ; Re: Coverting filenames from unix style to VMS style in DCL ; Re: Coverting filenames from unix style to VMS style in DCL 8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA1 Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn 5 Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn ' Gateway to buy HP's computing assets??? + Re: Gateway to buy HP's computing assets???  Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired it works Re: More HP should...... Re: More HP should...... Re: nameserver configuration Re: VMS Group purchase process?  Re: VMS Opportunity? Re: VMS Opportunity?5 [FREE!] Swingers Websites!                    t_yc33#   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:20:02 -0500 # From: john <jessiman@optonline.net> . Subject: ACMS - How to determine applications?8 Message-ID: <1r9v0117ipp2qr0b9c04m8aedtie3rh8na@4ax.com>  B I have several ACMS applications with shared servers amongst them.D Primarliy to show views of historical databases. I'd like to be ableC to find out which application my code is in from within a low-level C sndOper routine. I'm already up for $getjpi to find the .executable E name in order to reduce the need for a search, but don't know what to F do from there. Rather not have to run dcl command and parse output due! to the future maintenance issues.   
 Any ideas?   Thanks,  John   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 20:42:55 -0800( From: "Hein" <hein_news@eps.zko.dec.com>2 Subject: Re: ACMS - How to determine applications?C Message-ID: <1108356175.222234.157020@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   1 Boy, It's been a while that I thought about this.    ----F I don't suppose you can find a handy fields in an acms provided record like ACMS$TASK_INFORMATION?    ----- G Way back when ACMS would set up logical names ACMS$APPLICATION_NAME and 5 ACMS$SERVER_NAME that you could query with SYS$TRNLNM B They were undocumented/unsupported back then!Are those still there" perhaps? (SHOW LOG in DCL SERVER?)   ----- * how about server logicals in the appl def?C Couldn't you define your own as server logicals in your application  definition? For example:        REPLACE APPLICATION whatever     .      SERVER DEFAULTS ARE          LOGICAL NAME IS +             my_application_name = whatever;      END SERVER DEFAULTS;   ----- A and somewhat lame/hacky... if you guarantee that applications are E started in a particular order, then you could use f$getjpi to examine F the process names, and rely on the fact that ACMS names SP's according! to which EXC "owns" it.  Suppose: =         ACMS01EXC004000     is the fourth application started                     ^1                    |           for example), then                .----'               V B         ACMS004SP001000    ... all SP's running for that appl showE ACMS004 in their process names. Or at least that's how it was back in  1990 or so. C Maybe turn that around.... just report the process name and let the D operator figure out the application through the audit logs / startup logs?    ------E or some field you load into a record in every application definitions  with an 'action'?    fwiw,  Hein.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 14:07:30 -0800! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com + Subject: Canada Encompass event 24th on Feb C Message-ID: <1108332450.959130.235350@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   
 Newsgroup,  D Can you let me know if you are going to be at the Encompass event on the 24th of Feb in Toronto?   + http://www.encompasscanada.com/seminars.htm    Thanks,  Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:21:19 -0600 ( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling)2 Message-ID: <u8WdnSRCUopMJZLfRVn-ig@speakeasy.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:` > In article <1108162959.668032.224100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, jordan@ccs4vms.com writes: >  > H >>I need to equal or improve the performance of the AS600 system but cutE >>down on power and heat.  The lowest max rating I found on HP is the G >>DS10-L at 150 watts; that would obviously be a good performer too.  A I >>true DS10 is rated at 300W max; by experience they don't put out nearly  >  > H > That maximum figure presumably includes what might be disapated by theF > two additional PCI slots.  If you don't populate them you save some. >   C Be nice if there was some documentation for actual power usage with E different peripheral or accessory loads.  I guess I could try to find E a device to actually measure the load; there are some decent hardware ! and electrical stores hereabouts.    The PWS600AU is pretty loaded:. 	1GB RAM (2x256 DEC, 4x128 Crucial), 4MB Cache 	PowerStorm 4D20$ 	KZPCM (use 1 channel plus ethernet): 	DE500-BA (embedded ethernet is flakey and I use two ports 	4-port USB 1.1 card 	RZ2CC-KB 4GB disk 	IBM DCHS04W 4GB disk & 	WD 160GB IDE disk (via Acard adapter) 	TLZ07 DAT tape  	Yamaha CRW-F1S SCSI CD-R/CD-RW   : The AS600 5/333 is less loaded but much more power hungry:& 	256MB RAM (8 simms per bank, 2 banks) 	ZLXp-L1 video& 	standard SCSI FWD/ethernet combo card 	DE500-BA (for 100Base-T)  	RZ28M (2 each)  	TLZ07 	RRD46  H Its darn hard to find places that will go to the trouble of matching up H eight tin-contact SIMMs to expand the memory (it wants more once the PHP! applications are being served up)    > B >>my hobby ambitions).  A DS10L is not a good choice for a desktop" >>replacement for obvious reasons. >  > E > Not obvious to me -- what is the problem ?  Have you considered the  > combo card ?  D Unless you get _really_ lucky on ebay, the combo card pushes a DS10LG out of the 'hobby affordable' category, and the graphics performance is  rather anemic.  I I know that with normal DECwindows functionality, desktop functions that  E I use are not excessively graphics intensive (except for scrolling).  H With only one slot and normally priced (single function) cards you have B to choose between SCSI and video, where a DS10 can have both high D performing video (PS300 or one of the Radeon cards) _and_ Ultra2 or E better SCSI for far less than the usual price on the combo card with  H lo-po graphics and slower SCSI.  My PWS600au was a _whole_ lot nicer to @ use when I upgraded from a 4D10T (Elsa GLoria) to the 4D20; I'm I concerned that even with the much faster system, the low-end graphics in  D the combo card (if I bite the bullet and pay too much) will have me 6 wishing I was still using the older PWS as my desktop.  I The webserver box is much less important; although I have graphics on it  G I don't really need them, so a DS10L there could work just fine with a   single function SCSI card.   Rich   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:54:08 +0000 (UTC) % From: Dan Foster <usenet@evilphb.org> 8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling)6 Message-ID: <slrnd0vj8o.mp2.usenet@gaia.roc2.gblx.net>  \ In article <u8WdnSRCUopMJZLfRVn-ig@speakeasy.net>, Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net> wrote: > E > Be nice if there was some documentation for actual power usage with G > different peripheral or accessory loads.  I guess I could try to find G > a device to actually measure the load; there are some decent hardware # > and electrical stores hereabouts.   D It's a rudimentary device but very useful for the smaller machines I@ work with (i.e. 'plain jane' single 110V AC PSU machines) -- theE Kill-A-Watt electrical meter for American style electrical equipment.   F It retails for about USD $30-$40 on the web, and is utterly trivial to( use. Plug in, and watch the numbers. :-)  / A photo of the unit from a place that sells it:   $ http://www.ahernstore.com/p4400.html  D It's designed for 115-125 V AC, with a max current of 15A AC and max power of 1875 VA (125V x 15A).  G I tend to watch and record the numbers at certain stages of the machine C operation: initial power on, booting, then once system activity has  stabilized.   E I like this unit because it's a better indication of the actual power G use for your particular system unit, with its particular arrangement of > devices, than a generic 'worst-case numbers' in a publication.  G The unit can tell you the voltage, amperage, power factor (efficiency),  and voltage-amperage numbers.   B I also use it for planning home UPS requirements as well, to get a9 better ballpark number for what's needed to size the UPS.    -Dan   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:05:53 -0600 ( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling)2 Message-ID: <rMidnfAq0MQ5io3fRVn-1Q@speakeasy.net>   Dan Foster wrote: ^ > In article <u8WdnSRCUopMJZLfRVn-ig@speakeasy.net>, Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net> wrote: > E >>Be nice if there was some documentation for actual power usage with G >>different peripheral or accessory loads.  I guess I could try to find G >>a device to actually measure the load; there are some decent hardware # >>and electrical stores hereabouts.  >  > F > It's a rudimentary device but very useful for the smaller machines IB > work with (i.e. 'plain jane' single 110V AC PSU machines) -- theG > Kill-A-Watt electrical meter for American style electrical equipment.  > H > It retails for about USD $30-$40 on the web, and is utterly trivial to* > use. Plug in, and watch the numbers. :-) > 1 > A photo of the unit from a place that sells it:  > & > http://www.ahernstore.com/p4400.html > F > It's designed for 115-125 V AC, with a max current of 15A AC and max  > power of 1875 VA (125V x 15A). > I > I tend to watch and record the numbers at certain stages of the machine E > operation: initial power on, booting, then once system activity has 
 > stabilized.  > G > I like this unit because it's a better indication of the actual power I > use for your particular system unit, with its particular arrangement of @ > devices, than a generic 'worst-case numbers' in a publication. > I > The unit can tell you the voltage, amperage, power factor (efficiency),  > and voltage-amperage numbers.  > D > I also use it for planning home UPS requirements as well, to get a; > better ballpark number for what's needed to size the UPS.  >  > -Dan   Dan,I       thanks!  I'm going to have to get one.  I knew they had to make one . but I didn't realize they were so inexpensive.   Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:57:30 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>D Subject: Re: Coverting filenames from unix style to VMS style in DCLD Message-ID: <craigberry-7F83FD.16573013022005@news.isp.giganews.com>  3 In article <mpcuFYvMXuYC@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 6  kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) wrote:  A > I have a java program that calls a DCL command proc to work on  E > a file.  The java program passes the filename in unix style format, D > /disk/dir1/dir2/dir3/file.ext to which DCL says, "Huh?".  Is thereF > an easy way from DCL to convert a unix name to a VMS name?   PerhapsG > an undocumented parameter to parse_style in F$PARSE called DEUNIXIFY?   G One way to do it is with Perl.  If you just want to take a unix syntax  = name as input and print the VMS syntax name, this will do it:   3 $ perl -e "print VMS::Filespec::vmsify($ARGV[0]);"   "/disk/dir1/dir2/dir3/file.ext"  disk:[dir1.dir2.dir3]file.ext   F If you want to modify the contents of a DCL symbol called "filespec", 3 replacing its unix syntax with VMS syntax, do this:   , $ filespec = "/disk/dir1/dir2/dir3/file.ext"2 $ perl -"MVMS::DCLsym" -e "tie %dcl, VMS::DCLsym; 6 $dcl{filespec}=VMS::Filespec::vmsify($dcl{filespec});" $ show symbol filespec,   FILESPEC = "disk:[dir1.dir2.dir3]file.ext"  D These examples are written so as to fit on one line; there are more D readable and efficient ways to do the same thing in Perl if you are D willing to write a small utility script and keep it around for this H purpose.  Since Perl's conversion capabilities predate ODS-5 by quite a G few years, they may not handle things like multiple dots properly, but   are otherwise pretty reliable.  0 You could also have a look at how to do it in C:  6 SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.CRTL]DECC$TO_VMS_EXAMPLE.C  F Adding calls to lib$get_symbol and lib$set_symbol in there would be a ; way to have a small standalone program that reproduces the  H functionality of my second Perl example.  You could also build on the C D example to write a JNI plug-in and convert the filespec from within   Java before passing it to DCL.    F Obviously none of these methods is as convenient for your purposes as E having a DCL lexical, but I have never heard of one that does this.   / Sounds like another thing for Guy's to-do list.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 20:16:19 -0800( From: "Hein" <hein_news@eps.zko.dec.com>D Subject: Re: Coverting filenames from unix style to VMS style in DCLC Message-ID: <1108354579.749709.311660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Craig A. Berry wrote: 5 > In article <mpcuFYvMXuYC@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 8 >  kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) wrote: > B > > I have a java program that calls a DCL command proc to work onG > > a file.  The java program passes the filename in unix style format, F > > /disk/dir1/dir2/dir3/file.ext to which DCL says, "Huh?".  Is there> > > an easy way from DCL to convert a unix name to a VMS name? Perhaps > > > an undocumented parameter to parse_style in F$PARSE called
 DEUNIXIFY? > A > One way to do it is with Perl.  If you just want to take a unix  syntax? > name as input and print the VMS syntax name, this will do it:   4 I like the perl route for general purpose funcstion.D But maybe you know that this Java program can be expected to be moreE predictable. For example maybe you know it will never pass a relative D path, and that is always has at least this two path components (disk? and top directory in VMS terms). In such special, easy, cases a 0 straight bit of DCL may be adequat. For example:   $if p1.eqs."" then exit 2 $name = f$elem(1,"/",p1) + ":[" + f$elem(2,"/",p1) $current = f$elem(3,"/",p1)  $i = 4 $loop: $next = f$elem(i,"/",p1)# $if next.eqs."/" then goto end_loop  $name = name + "." + current $current = next 
 $i = i + 1
 $goto loop $ 
 $end_loop: $name = name + "]" + current $show symb name    hth, Hein.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:48:33 -0800  From: Z <Z@no.spam> D Subject: Re: Coverting filenames from unix style to VMS style in DCL( Message-ID: <O9WPd.1488$cC2.15@fe07.lga>   Marty Kuhrt wrote:A > I have a java program that calls a DCL command proc to work on  E > a file.  The java program passes the filename in unix style format, D > /disk/dir1/dir2/dir3/file.ext to which DCL says, "Huh?".  Is thereF > an easy way from DCL to convert a unix name to a VMS name?   PerhapsG > an undocumented parameter to parse_style in F$PARSE called DEUNIXIFY?   3 The easiest way I've ever come across is with Perl.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:53:57 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA , Message-ID: <r_adnQ1z_s77I5LfRVn-3g@igs.net>   patrick jankowiak wrote: > John Smith wrote:  >> patrick jankowiak wrote:  >> >>> Morten Reistad wrote:  >>>  >>> . >>>> In article <41F31CAE.6000803@swbell.net>,0 >>>> patrick jankowiak  <eccm@swbell.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> F >>>>>> I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the UniversityD >>>>>> for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from aE >>>>>> few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince C >>>>>> the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really B >>>>>> don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-(C >>>>>> My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can B >>>>>> come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would alsoC >>>>>> make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with > >>>>>> guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>>> >>>>? >>>> Corporate sponsors are just as shallow. We need to come up " >>>> with a workable museum first. >>>> >>>> >>>>G >>>>> I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just E >>>>> waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me want to H >>>>> listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keepH >>>>> a good mindset but this step is getting me down. It has to be done
 >>>>> though.  >>>>>  >>>>> OPCOM  >>>> >>>>C >>>> A computer museum will need large amounts of space; as well as D >>>> access to largish amounts of energy when someone decides to runH >>>> the machines. Much can be mocked up for the standard visitor, usingF >>>> emulators to show software on the correct terminals. But machinesB >>>> must be kept intact. We also have the issue of documentation. >>>>G >>>> Such space fast becomes the major problem. It cannot be in or very D >>>> near major cities, because land is too expensive there. And the7 >>>> scale of this is big enough for a full theme park.  >>>> >>>> So why not do this? >>>>F >>>> Make a theme park around technology development and preservation.D >>>> Remember that the audience is a premium one for many locations.E >>>> The nerds or wannabees that visit such places have above average D >>>> income, are not very inclined to boozing and gambling, and tend, >>>> to leave the facilities without damage. >>>>E >>>> It will have to be located somewhere outside the mainstream, and B >>>> must be the magnet for people itself. Just like Disney World. >>>> >>>> -- mrr  >>>> >>>> >>> 3 >>> Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, 5 >>> have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. 7 >>> A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see 6 >>> it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks% >>> don't like the hot weather much..  >>> : >>> The place could become a location of pilgrimages where; >>> acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform 8 >>> 5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon5 >>> while across the park, boy electricians made huge 2 >>> sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors.. >>> 9 >>> Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling 1 >>> RA81's and during this activity, connected to : >>> amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped/ >>> floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" / >>> "Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!!  >>> Watch out for the heads!!"- >>> Space mountain's got nothing on this one!  >>> 7 >>> Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a ; >>> minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, 7 >>> that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 : >>> with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf= >>> cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. : >>> And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights8 >>> dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim,9 >>> AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, 4 >>> machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I5 >>> know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other  >>> stately machines.  >>> ; >>> On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? 5 >>> Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic 7 >>> technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment 8 >>> with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators= >>> from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure 4 >>> plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a. >>> microwave beam through the plasma chamber? >>> ) >>> The progress of everything high tech: 
 >>> computers  >>> RF	 >>> audio 3 >>> Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those)  >>> plain old electricity   >>> tesla coil (very very large) >>> open-frame dynamos >>> what else? >>> # >>> Might cost what $100M to start?  >>> = >>> The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, 2 >>> and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates. >>> 2 >>> It's wonderful and would probably make tons of& >>> moolah.. Who's going to call Bill? >> >> >>B >> You'd probably have more luck with Allen, Wozniak, and Ellison. >> Maybe even Ross Perot.  >> >>G > Yeah, but I'm not the guy to pull that off. I'm an evil genius with a < > soldering iron and a logic analyzer, not a big businesman.    J You never know what an honest from-the-heart letter might bring forth whenK sent to each of these guys.You just have to start the ball rolling and then # get somebody else in to execute it.   I Allen funded the Jimi Hendrix Museum....funding a DEC collection (part of J which he probably actually had hands-on experience with) might just be his thing.  K I'll bet the NSA would want it - if for no other reason than media transfer 2 purposes of all their old undeciphered intercepts.  E There's a business...house everything as a museum at an old hanger in L Roswell and get paid admissions, and do paid media conversions for customersK who have data in old formats, on old disk paks, etc.... stuff that needs to 5 hang around -- medical records, land records, etc....    --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 04:23:00 GMT 6 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA 8 Message-ID: <2q90119uka1c68r2hjc77oj4mjq8i3a708@4ax.com>  A On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:53:57 -0500 in alt.sys.pdp11, "John Smith"  <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   L >I'll bet the NSA would want it - if for no other reason than media transfer3 >purposes of all their old undeciphered intercepts.   > Perhaps even NASA for replacement parts for old systems or old unconverted data.    --  9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada   F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca),     fake address		use address above to reply   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:36:32 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn, Message-ID: <CoGdnWCWmfD-NZLfRVn-gw@igs.net>  L http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/ArticE le_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1108249810838&call_pageid=968350072197      Feb. 13, 2005. 10:14 AM      HP's Fiorina wrong for the jobF And that's the only thing HP's firing of `celebrity' CEO Carly Fiorina proves     DAVID OLIVE   I It's not every day that the most powerful businesswoman in the world gets L the axe. So what does Carly Fiorina's ouster at the $80 billion (U.S. sales)L Hewlett-Packard Co. last week mean for women aspiring to the highest reaches of corporate leadership?  G It means practically nothing. HP erred not in elevating a woman for the G first time in the history of a Dow 30 company, but by picking the wrong   woman. Women make terrific CEOs.  K Meg Whitman has transformed eBay Inc. from a trading post for collectors of K Pez dispensers into the world's dominant online auctioneer. At Xerox Corp., K Lucent Technologies Inc. and Avon Products Inc., successful turnaround CEOs J Anne Mulcahy, Patricia Russo and Toronto native Andrea Jung, respectively,@ have been cleaning up the mess left by ousted male predecessors.  L When a door closes, one opens: PepsiCo Inc. veteran Brenda Barnes was tappedB last week as incoming CEO at food and apparel giant Sara Lee Corp.  K Investors in women-led Fortune 500 companies enjoyed a 53.7 per cent return L on their stock in the past two years, compared with a 37.7 per cent gain forF the Standard & Poor's 500 index. And that includes Fiorina's miserableJ record - HP stock lost about half its value since her appointment in 1999,G while shares in IBM Corp. fell just 28 per cent, and stock in Dell Inc.  slipped 12 per cent.  K Given Fiorina's lousy track record after a five-and-a-half-year kick at the G can, Wharton business school professor Michael Useem said last week, "A H `Carl' Fiorina would have been subjected to the same pressures" from his board.  L Fiorina's executioner, as it happens, is another woman, HP director PatriciaE Dunn, erstwhile head of asset manager Barclays Global Investors, HP's J third-largest investor. Three years ago, Dunn, 53, was fighting a personalK battle with breast cancer and melanoma at the time of Fiorina's contentious I $19 billion takeover of Compaq Computer Corp. - the deal that effectively J destroyed Fiorina's career. Since recovered, Dunn in recent months led the@ HP board's belated effort to confront Fiorina with her failings.  I In fairness to Fiorina, HP had begun to lose touch with the market before L her arrival, and a talent drain had begun two (male) CEOs previously. And toJ Fiorina's credit, she was able to extract the $2.5 billion (U.S.) or so in6 promised cost savings from the combo of HP and Compaq.  J But Fiorina did not make a priority of shifting HP's legendary R&D machineI back into high gear, and actually accelerated the brain drain. Not one to D accept blame, Fiorina had a penchant for high-profile firings of topC lieutenants whose departures were regarded by loyal HPers as public 	 hangings.   K Despite considerable pressure to do so, Fiorina refused to appoint a strong L second in command. "There are very few companies that have a chief operatingF officer," Fiorina told the Wall Street Journal in November. "You can't" separate strategy from execution."  F That's an arguable point, as any number of winsome combinations of CEOK visionaries and hands-on chief operating officers have proven. In any case, J Fiorina exhibited a debilitating characteristic of celebrity CEOs: she was+ an absentee manager who would not delegate.   I Even with the bet-the-company Compaq deal going sour amid culture clashes I and continuing market share losses to Dell, IBM and others, Fiorina found E too much time for star turns at Davos, the Sundance Film Festival and J President George W. Bush's advisory panel on space travel to Mars. And tooI little for lunching in the staff cafeteria with HP engineers, as founders E Dave Packard and Bill Hewitt famously did. Many of the latter toasted < Fiorina's departure last week with magnums of Veuve Cliquot.  J Dunn last week repeatedly emphasized that, especially in the volatile techG industry, the CEO job "requires a lot of hands-on execution." That held H little interest for Fiorina compared with being in the public spotlight,5 management guru Jim Collins said four long years ago.   H Within a few months of her arrival at HP, when she had yet to accomplishH anything, Fiorina had achieved TV ubiquity, as a guest of Tom Brokaw andG others, and the star of a $200 million HP ad campaign. In a Wall Street K Journal essay in 2001, Good to Great author Collins asked, "Whose brand was F she building anyway? It sure looked like the brand of Carly would soon eclipse the brand of HP."   I The eclipse of Fiorina is a case study in board incompetence that started G with inept due diligence. Every CEO hiring is a bit of a crapshoot. But * Fiorina was an especially poor fit for HP.  I A career "Bellhead" at AT&T Corp. and its manufacturing spin-off, Lucent, J Fiorina was not conversant in the computer world. And where she previouslyK dealt with a handful of giant telco clients, at HP she would be required to G read the market for both supercomputers sold to blue-chip institutional L clients and inkjet cartridges and MP3 players snapped up by HP's millions of retail consumers.   K Fiorina had run her first major profit centre, at Lucent, for all of a year L before her arrival at HP as a novice CEO. In the subsequent telecom collapseI it was revealed that during Fiorina's brief stint as a supersaleswoman of G telecom gear, Lucent, like rival Nortel Networks Corp., had resorted to 9 dubious financial practices to push product out the door.   I In Fiorina, the HP board hired "a very facile salesperson who came from a J company that looked fabulously successful primarily by cooking the books,"I Silicon Valley biographer Robert Cringely wrote on his website last week.   D "Knowing she was not what she was claiming to be, Carly's managementL technique was to be charming and brutal, to throw HP through a succession ofI mergers and reorgs that kept any potential adversary from gaining a power  base."  D HP had lost about 50 per cent of its share value within two years ofJ Fiorina's arrival, yet she survived in the job, and won the board's assentB to her Compaq folly. Why? Because the board set a trap for itself.  J In seizing upon Foirina, the stodgy HP sought a jolt of charisma, to shakeI up its own troops and shake its wallflower status on Wall Street. "Having L hired a glamorous CEO, the directors were then overawed by her celebrity andF believed they had recruited a messiah," says Dan Ondrack, professor of= organizational behaviour at Toronto's Rotman business school.   C "The directors subsequently felt duty-bound to follow the messiah's 
 strategy."  J Some celebrity CEOs thrive, as with Jack Welch of General Electric Co. ButK more often these "productive narcissists," as Michael Maccoby calls them in 1 a recent book, are a curse on the business world.   G Sustained success has eluded the likes of Michael Eisner, Al Dunlap and D Garth Drabinsky, while the near-anonymous John Lederer and Lee ScottL diligently build their empires at Loblaw Cos. Ltd. and Wal-Mart Stores Inc.,
 respectively.   A Celebrity CEOs "focus themselves at the centre of attention at an G organization," says Rakesh Khurana, Harvard business prof and author of L Searching for a Corporate Savior: The Irrational Quest for Charismatic CEOs.  L Fiorina's tenure will not have been in vain if directors absorb its lessons.L "It's an unstable form of leadership," Khurana said of CEOs who suck all theG air out of a room. "The difference between a cult and a religion is one  outlasts its leader."      --  - OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:42:21 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>> Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn= Message-ID: <usudnTI1S95SSpLfRVn-rg@metrocastcablevision.com>    John Smith wrote: N > http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/ArticG > le_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1108249810838&call_pageid=968350072197   G Gee - why do you suppose it took all these people an extra 3+ years to  A see what was so obvious even to those who hadn't previously been  I acquainted with Carly as soon as the merger raised its head?  Guess they  H just weren't really paying attention back then, but it sure didn't keep  them from pontificating.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:13:27 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> > Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn, Message-ID: <mKCdnagUIsCFQpLfRVn-tQ@igs.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote:  >>L http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/ArticH >> le_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1108249810838&call_pageid=968350072197 > H > Gee - why do you suppose it took all these people an extra 3+ years toB > see what was so obvious even to those who hadn't previously beenE > acquainted with Carly as soon as the merger raised its head?  GuessnB > they just weren't really paying attention back then, but it sure& > didn't keep them from pontificating. >a > - bill    : Not sure I follow you.....who exactly are you refering to?
 1) HP BoD? 2) Industry pundits?
 3) The press?i  L It isn't the press or pundits' job to fire a CEO, that prerogative inures toI the BoD alone.  Arguably it would have been far less costly for HP to cane@ her long ago, even after the merger, but preferably prior to it.  I In many respects the best strategy HP could have taken was to have turnedrK carly(tm)'s merger with Compaq around was to have proposed to Capellas that J Compaq *take* everything except printers and imaging from HP, and HP would; have thrown in $5B cash to help with the integration costs.    Just clarifying.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:49:40 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> > Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia DunnB Message-ID: <1108341472.a0ed1a7efb4972ca9375e9c0e4941e6e@teranews>   Bill Todd wrote:H > Gee - why do you suppose it took all these people an extra 3+ years toB > see what was so obvious even to those who hadn't previously been? > acquainted with Carly as soon as the merger raised its head? p    = Remember her fight for the merger. She made deal with variouslD shareholders notably Deutchse Bank to support her plan. Once she hadD that support, the board didn't much of an option except give her theH support she needed to execute what shareholders had given her permission to do.  G And in doing so, they managed to destroy her career. Had they fired her C early, she could have argued that she was never given the chance to H fully realise the merger. But now, she was given the chance to do as sheG wished, she was allowed to reign alone at the top without a COO. At theeE end of the day, Carly as no excuse and must admite that either CompaqA$ was a mistake or she is incompetant.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:44:15 -0500A( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>> Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn= Message-ID: <LPWdnWhaTs_9aZLfRVn-jg@metrocastcablevision.com>m   John Smith wrote:  > Bill Todd wrote: >  >>John Smith wrote:o >>N > http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Artic > H >>>le_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1108249810838&call_pageid=968350072197 >>H >>Gee - why do you suppose it took all these people an extra 3+ years toB >>see what was so obvious even to those who hadn't previously beenE >>acquainted with Carly as soon as the merger raised its head?  GuessrB >>they just weren't really paying attention back then, but it sure& >>didn't keep them from pontificating. >> >>- bill >  >  > < > Not sure I follow you.....who exactly are you refering to? > 1) HP BoD? > 2) Industry pundits? > 3) The press?    All of the above.w   > N > It isn't the press or pundits' job to fire a CEO, that prerogative inures to > the BoD alone.  F It is, however, very definitely the job of the others to scrutinize a - CEO's actions and report competently on them.   I Carly was given the same kind of free ride by almost everyone save a few oE people like Walter Hewlett that Dubya was given in terms of domestic  I press and political scrutiny in going to war in Iraq.  Unfortunately, so  H far only one of them has been called to any kind of account (just to be I clear, I'm talking about impeachment rather than merely being voted out: aF   Kerry disgusted me about as much as Bush did, and for only slightly  different reasons).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:54:03 -0500s( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>> Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn= Message-ID: <-tidnYbw6OQ2a5LfRVn-vQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Bill Todd wrote: > H >>Gee - why do you suppose it took all these people an extra 3+ years toB >>see what was so obvious even to those who hadn't previously been? >>acquainted with Carly as soon as the merger raised its head? p >  >  > ? > Remember her fight for the merger. She made deal with various F > shareholders notably Deutchse Bank to support her plan. Once she hadF > that support, the board didn't much of an option except give her theJ > support she needed to execute what shareholders had given her permission > to do.  H I'm afraid your grasp of history is somewhat backward:  the BoD (absent G Walter Hewlett) supported her from the start, whereas she only managed yE to garner sufficient shareholder support (and in particular Deutsche o Bank's) at the last minute.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:04:17 -0500,- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> > Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia DunnB Message-ID: <1108345943.ab5f7dada762e026fa3cac7e59a68d8e@teranews>   Bill Todd wrote:I > I'm afraid your grasp of history is somewhat backward:  the BoD (absent>H > Walter Hewlett) supported her from the start, whereas she only managedF > to garner sufficient shareholder support (and in particular Deutsche > Bank's) at the last minute.   D Was this unanimous support in the BOD (less Hewlett) ? Or just 50.1% support from BOD members ?  C I have a feeling that support wasn't very solid. Remember that manym< board members in large corporations, expecially prior to theC ENRON/WORLDCOM debacles, enjoyed the benefits, glory and gold gamessF without really getting involved and as a result, they woudl often justF vote along what they think is the majority, in order not to be seen asE the black sheep that prevents the company from moving ahead.  Hewletth: was crealy the black sheep because he stood up and fought.  G But that doesn't mean that other board member had 100% support for thistF thing. Now that Carly was starting to be protrayed as a failure by theF press, such "soft" board member could easily be turned and hence Carly gets fired.H  E There may also have been deal behind the scenes with those soft board F members. Perhaps bringing in Perkins assured victory of the ousting ofF Carly, allowing board members to vote in favour of her ousting and notH fear her wrath shoudl she survive and then get back at board members who voted against her.  B I think that much of this actually happened outside the boardroom,F during lunches, telephone conversations, golf games between individual- board members without Carly knowing about it.s   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 22:11:04 -0800( From: yamahasw40@latinmail.com (Schmuck)> Subject: Re: Fiorina's executioner - HP director Patricia Dunn= Message-ID: <24819cc3.0502132211.79d94623@posting.google.com>l  w JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:<1108341472.a0ed1a7efb4972ca9375e9c0e4941e6e@teranews>...    > At theG > end of the day, Carly as no excuse and must admite that either Compaq & > was a mistake or she is incompetant.  E I reckon the $42Million dollares she walks away with after 5 years asrC CEO means she achieved her goal... which was to get filthy stinkingd rich.r   Matt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:46:33 -0500a# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e0 Subject: Gateway to buy HP's computing assets???, Message-ID: <f-adnZsc3v4AM5LfRVn-hg@igs.net>  L http://news.com.com/Analyst%3A+HP+should+price+Gateway/2100-7341_3-5573026.h
 tml?tag=st_lho  ! The story talks about two things:rK 1) Either HP 'bulks up' in the PC business through the purchase of Gateway,p orI 2) HP sells its PC group to Gateway if they decide they just want to be ao printer company.  B Which begs the question, if option 2) comes to pass, who owns/buys VMS/HP-UX/Tandem on IA64?1       --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.C   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:45:44 -05005- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>t4 Subject: Re: Gateway to buy HP's computing assets???B Message-ID: <1108334041.f6dfea25a22f08236997533bbf2c9182@teranews>   John Smith wrote:< > N > http://news.com.com/Analyst%3A+HP+should+price+Gateway/2100-7341_3-5573026.h > tml?tag=st_lhe  D I've seen the exact opposite mentioned. Gateway's investment bankersB offering the striggling Gateway to HP so that HP can make the sameE mistake again and think that by buying abnother wintel maker, it willl, make its own wintel product line profitable.  G This is a sign that gateway is seing the end of its own road soon, justaA like Compaq did when it asked investment bankers to find a buyer.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:15:15 -0600D2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?.+ Message-ID: <420FA743.E926F4A7@comcast.net>    Z wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:0J > > Have you (or anyone you know) ever been "grep"-ed by a law-enforcementF > > agent? ...ever been served with or even heard of a "grep" warrant?I > > ...ever heard of an internet "grep" engine? ...ever heard of a "grep"g > > and rescue mission?t > >  > > 'Nuff said.  > 5 > Is your point that the name "grep" isn't intuitive?t > J > The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layeredH > product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of > VMS exposure.o  5 Yeah, I guess "cp" *IS* more "intuitive" than COPY...    "rm" ... "DELETE"e   "vi" ... "EDIT"i   "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"   "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"   "tar" ... "BACKUP"   "cat" ... "TYPE"   "man" ... "HELP"   "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"   "lpr" ... "PRINT"    "at" ... "SUBMIT"5  G (Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP displaye? and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-landQ commands, eh? ;-)s   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems< http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:n" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/m   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:32:34 -0800y From: Z <Z@no.spam>e Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? ( Message-ID: <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>   David J Dachtera wrote:r5 >>Is your point that the name "grep" isn't intuitive?  >>J >>The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layeredH >>product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of >>VMS exposure.t  7 > Yeah, I guess "cp" *IS* more "intuitive" than COPY...d > "rm" ... "DELETE"  > "vi" ... "EDIT"e > "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT" > "ls" ... "DIRECTORY" > "tar" ... "BACKUP" > "cat" ... "TYPE" > "man" ... "HELP" > "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM" > "lpr" ... "PRINT"w > "at" ... "SUBMIT"oI > (Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display'A > and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-landa > commands, eh? ;-)t  H Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your  past VMS experience.  E I find it telling that you compare SUBMIT and at... consider why you )I think "SUBMIT" makes more sense than "at" for runnng a task at some time  D in the future and then go ask some one who doesn't know Unix or VMS * which command they think makes more sense.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:56:48 -0600n2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?-+ Message-ID: <420FB0FF.7B140499@comcast.net>0   Z wrote: >  > David J Dachtera wrote:c7 > >>Is your point that the name "grep" isn't intuitive?n > >>L > >>The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layeredJ > >>product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of > >>VMS exposure.s > 9 > > Yeah, I guess "cp" *IS* more "intuitive" than COPY...c > > "rm" ... "DELETE"  > > "vi" ... "EDIT"e > > "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT" > > "ls" ... "DIRECTORY" > > "tar" ... "BACKUP" > > "cat" ... "TYPE" > > "man" ... "HELP" > > "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM" > > "lpr" ... "PRINT"x > > "at" ... "SUBMIT"PK > > (Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP displayYC > > and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land  > > commands, eh? ;-)  > I > Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of yourp > past VMS experience.  F The VMS commands are plain English, common usage - no degree required.  E Please, do expound profusely on how "cp" would be the firts tought tocH mind when exploring commands to copy files, "cat" to type them out, etc.  5 Feel free to poll non-computer users for their input.,  F > I find it telling that you compare SUBMIT and at... consider why youJ > think "SUBMIT" makes more sense than "at" for runnng a task at some timeE > in the future and then go ask some one who doesn't know Unix or VMSe, > which command they think makes more sense.  E Depends. I typically think of what I need to do and when I need to dodH it. While I might say out loud, "At 1000, I need to (insert task here)",G it is unlikely that I would think or say, "Let's see: I need to cp thate	 file...".   ? My internal syntax, as you say (being a long-time VMS user), is > typically, "After 1000, I need (x) to happen" which comes fromG SUBMIT/AFTER. Typical computer users would likely have a bit of troubleuE on that adjustment, but perhaps less than "cp"-ing a file rather than C COPYing it, "vi"-ing a document rather than EDITing it, "lpr"-ing a E "document" rather than PRINTing it, "tar"-ing their files rather than  making a BACKUP, ...  G DCL verbs are typically very English language - dictionary words, whichuF "cp", "rm", "ls", etc. are not. Some software products introduce verbs4 which are less intuitive, like WSEA, LD, and others.  / Also, "intuition" is a very individual concept.3   -- 0 David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:y" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/n   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:14:44 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>t Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?rB Message-ID: <1108332185.f0c9d350c25620cc08600b4c94090a31@teranews>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > > the point is I can sit anyone down at a vms machine and they9 > would bee 100% more productive there compared to a unixt > machine ...     
 "anyone" ????   D A russian would be more comfortable on a machine that is in russian.: A greek is more comfortable on a machine that is in Greek.D A Unix Geek would be more comfortable on a machine that speaks Unix.  D And a MAC user wouldn't be 100% moe productive on a VMS machine. Nor3 woudl a Windows user, even with decwindows running.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:28:29 -0500l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?sB Message-ID: <1108333011.1311d0dd3d55e01f883951ed3416655d@teranews>   Beach Runner wrote:,	 > Oh Yes,42 > GREP is a much more human interface than Search.  I And the MAC's "find" menu is far more human friendly than SEARCH on VMS. +  G Comparing DCL with a unix shell is like comparing COBOL to APL. The APLmC guru is far more comfortable with his APL , able to do really fancy G tricks in one line when it would take a 1000 line COBOL program to do. l  H In the end, it is about productivity.  Unix may take a bit more trainingF than VMS. But if one has a good Unix manual, it shouldn't be that hard	 to learn.o  B After you've learned a second language, you brain learns to switchD contexts/languages. I think the same applies to computers. if you'veG worked in different environments, it because easier to just get into annE environment and quickly get used to it. If you've only ever worked onaH one environment, then you're at a loss when presented with a new one and> your brain needs to learn how to become bilingual (in computer environment terms).h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:35:59 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>L Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?kB Message-ID: <1108333457.7c6d0cf73029e7e414fcc4c3b17b101d@teranews>   David J Dachtera wrote:  > "rm" ... "DELETE"  					REMOVE1 > "vi" ... "EDIT"n" 					VI is a "brand name" editor.    > "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"5 					This is de facto standard on most platforms now,  >  > "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"& 					Comes from "LIST" (list of files) > "tar" ... "BACKUP"; 					TAR is a well known backup format now. Not so obscure.    > "cat" ... "TYPE"B 					Comes from Concatenate. (think APPEND myfile.dat sys$output:) > "man" ... "HELP" 					MANUALe > "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"  					ok, so that one is obscure. > "lpr" ... "PRINT":B 					Line Printer. (and LPR is now a well known printer protocol)_    @ Once you knwo the meaning of the commands, they really aren't soG obscure.  And just how do you remember all the qualifiers available for C each VMS command ? You just remember them from previous uses.  Same B thing for those human being who morphed into Unix geeks. They justF learsn those -x switches and remember them. Just like you remember how? to construct an english language sentence, they remember how to # construct a unix language sentence.w   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 18:01:01 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?e3 Message-ID: <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  > In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes: > David J Dachtera wrote:>   >> "rm" ... "DELETE" >> "vi" ... "EDIT" >> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"> >> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"e >> "tar" ... "BACKUP"d >> "cat" ... "TYPE"> >> "man" ... "HELP"s >> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"i >> "lpr" ... "PRINT" >> "at" ... "SUBMIT"J >> (Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP displayB >> and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land >> commands, eh? ;-) > J > Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your  > past VMS experience.  H No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experienceI with the English language.  Those from some countries might not find thatoG helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is fromv the United States.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:46:25 +0000 (UTC)i7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)e Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?e/ Message-ID: <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>l  c In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: ? !In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:  !> David J Dachtera wrote: !p !>> "rm" ... "DELETE"l !>> "vi" ... "EDIT"  !>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"  B Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.   !>> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY" !>> "tar" ... "BACKUP"  D COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse	:-)   !>> "cat" ... "TYPE" !>> "man" ... "HELP" !>> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM" !>> "lpr" ... "PRINT"g !>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"e  # BATCH would be more intuitive here.>  L VMS is more intuitive than UNIX, but there are still some arbitrary choices K here.  I don't remember much of PRIMOS, but I think that some of the CL wast. yet more intuitive.  bill g., care to comment?   !snip!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:19:12 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>h Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?'B Message-ID: <1108346839.34146d4f8a683082b835bdf2db61de6d@teranews>   "Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote: D > Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.  D Satan's lawyer says: -  "SET DIRECTORY or SET LOCATION would be more
 intuitive    Or even MOVE INTO .....   M > COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse        :-)l    SAFEGUARD would make more sense.   > !>> "cat" ... "TYPE"  1 out of curiosity, what does "dog" do in Unix ????r  % > BATCH would be more intuitive here.n  F QUEUE would be better.  (the verb). After all, that is what submit and0 print do, they just queue a job to be processed.  M > VMS is more intuitive than UNIX, but there are still some arbitrary choicesh	 > here.  e    C Nothing beats the macintosh, especially for file management. And itiG isn't that much younger than VMS by now. (consider that its parent, theaE Lisa was circa 1982-1983, only 5 years after VMS. However, from an OSi5 perspective, VMS was way ahead of the MAC until OS-X.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 20:09:25 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?t3 Message-ID: <O8TVTAHj+Zz$@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  i In article <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:se > In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:lA > !In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:B > !> David J Dachtera wrote: > !  > !>> "rm" ... "DELETE", > !>> "vi" ... "EDIT"  > !>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT" > D > Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.  B If so, do you know of an operating system which provides a command called CHANGE DIRECTORY ?n   > !>> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY" > !>> "tar" ... "BACKUP" > F > COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse	:-)  ! No, COPY means something simpler.l   > !>> "cat" ... "TYPE" > !>> "man" ... "HELP" > !>> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM" > !>> "lpr" ... "PRINT"h > !>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"m > % > BATCH would be more intuitive here.A  ? Word choice is more than spelling - it is also parts of speech.s" The better VMS commands are verbs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:01:11 -0800g From: Z <Z@no.spam>e Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?m) Message-ID: <7BUPd.1454$6o.1155@fe07.lga>t   Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>>"at" ... "SUBMIT"J >>>(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP displayB >>>and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land >>>commands, eh? ;-) >>J >>Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your  >>past VMS experience. >  > J > No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experienceK > with the English language.  Those from some countries might not find that.I > helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is froma > the United States.   Really?a  E How often do you use the word SUBMIT when talking about something you  need to do in the future?c   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:02:06 +0000 (UTC),7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)C Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?s/ Message-ID: <cup4bd$cff$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>d  c In article <O8TVTAHj+Zz$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: j !In article <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:f !> In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:B !> !In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes: !> !> David J Dachtera wrote:: !> ! !> !>> "rm" ... "DELETE" !> !>> "vi" ... "EDIT" !> !>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"e !> tE !> Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.a !hC !If so, do you know of an operating system which provides a commande !called CHANGE DIRECTORY ?  & Yes - UNIX has c(hange)d(irectory)	:-)  5 There would be a related command, "SHOW DIRECTORY"...r   !s !> !>> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"  !> !>> "tar" ... "BACKUP"g !> eG !> COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse	:-)w ! " !No, COPY means something simpler. !a  E In the VMS world, we know the difference between COPY and BACKUP, butmL explaining the difference to an outsider is somewhat counter-intuitive.  HowN about REPLICATE to replace BACKUP?  COPY would retain its "current" meaning...   :-)c   !> !>> "cat" ... "TYPE"n !> !>> "man" ... "HELP"o !> !>> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM", !> !>> "lpr" ... "PRINT" !> !>> "at" ... "SUBMIT" !> s& !> BATCH would be more intuitive here. !s@ !Word choice is more than spelling - it is also parts of speech.# !The better VMS commands are verbs.e  O Very subtle reasoning here - so the best of VMS is dynamic, rather than static?.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:47:23 -08007 From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?.* Message-ID: <I8WPd.1487$sr2.1413@fe07.lga>   Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:tG > In the VMS world, we know the difference between COPY and BACKUP, butsN > explaining the difference to an outsider is somewhat counter-intuitive.  HowP > about REPLICATE to replace BACKUP?  COPY would retain its "current" meaning...  I One more: "BACKUP" as the command for restoring data is counterintuitive.v   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:11:37 -0500t' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>P Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?h0 Message-ID: <1110fohe2evv65f@corp.supernews.com>   Z wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >  >>>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"L >>>> (Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP displayD >>>> and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land >>>> commands, eh? ;-) >>>t >>> G >>> Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of d >>> your past VMS experience.i >> >> >>K >> No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experienceaL >> with the English language.  Those from some countries might not find thatJ >> helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from >> the United States.c >  > 	 > Really?e > G > How often do you use the word SUBMIT when talking about something youP > need to do in the future?k  F Picking out one example, and there is more than one, doesn't validate  your argument.  D At least it is SETUP for setting up a job to run in the future.  :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:17:52 -0500s' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>e Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <110v9epootsmpfb@corp.supernews.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:i  Q > But what is the long term future for IA64 (assuming Intel and HP don't drop it)e > ?n > M > Will it have to be redesigned to become more of a RISC chip and drop EPIC ?nI > If it keeps EPIC will the numbers sold justify the work required on ther
 > compilers ?  >  > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University  D IA-64 is now solely in the hands of Intel.  What will they do?  Who I knows, which is probably one of the biggest reasons DEC/Compaq/HP should lG not have killed Alpha.  Alpha was in their hands, and they were not at tJ risk (or is that RISC) of anyone else pulling the rug out from under them.  H The itanic is here now, and from most reports it works reasonably well. G   The keys here are, #1, for how long will it be here, and #2, is it a . satisfactory CPU.   G For #1, that's up to Intel.  It's out of HP's hands.  To counter this, uI they could continue to have IBM fab the EV7/EV7z and possibly some minor nF mods, process shrinks, and such indefinitely, or as long as customers H are buying them.  Sell VMS on both platforms.  Keep their options open. >   Hey, IA-64 could still catch on and be profitable for Intel.  I As for #2, most VMS users aren't using VMS because it's blazingly faster  I than anything else available.  If this was ever true, it hasn't been for  D a long time, and there are still VMS users.  There are many reasons H users stay with VMS, and this is a good market for HP.  So, even if the F itanic never competes with Power and whatever, it may be adequate for I VMS users.  Alpha EV7 will probably be adequate for most VMS users for a nH long time.  I'm talking 5-10 years.  The systems can get better even if  using the same CPU.u  G There are at least 2 inexpensive methods for VMS to remain a viable OS &H in the near future.  The question is whether HP choses to implement and ' maintain either or both of the methods.r   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:23:14 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>d Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108332695.20e64d81d2bc817c1185d9d5ddaa0d5d@teranews>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:iM > Will it have to be redesigned to become more of a RISC chip and drop EPIC ?oI > If it keeps EPIC will the numbers sold justify the work required on thet
 > compilers ?h  C I think that the original argument was that it was cheaper to write G compilers than to design chips. Shift intelligence from the chip to thecA compiler and you should, in theory, have cheaper chip to develop.b  @ The thing is that the compiler ecosystem on IA64 seems extremelyH confusing. How many C compilers will exist on IA64 once NSK runs on it ?G  Whose compilers does SGI use on IA64-Linux ? How well tuned is the GNUiE compiler ? Does it use an Intel back end to do all the EPIC stuff, oru does it have its own ? b  E Heck, even on VMS, it seems hard to figure our exactly where the IA64a compilers are coming from.  G My take is that if Intel can justify sinking more money into Itanic, iteF will add new risc-like features but not remove the original EPIC core.H They'll find areas where trhe compilers can't do as good a job as Alpha,7 and they'll tweak the chip to reduce this disadvantage.   ' My guess is that it won't get that far.i   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 18:02:43 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n Subject: Re: HP should....3 Message-ID: <awq6JzCWAdDl@eisner.encompasserve.org>O  Z In article <110v9epootsmpfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  J > The itanic is here now, and from most reports it works reasonably well. I >   The keys here are, #1, for how long will it be here, and #2, is it a   > satisfactory CPU.d > I > For #1, that's up to Intel.  It's out of HP's hands.  To counter this, rK > they could continue to have IBM fab the EV7/EV7z and possibly some minor eH > mods, process shrinks, and such indefinitely, or as long as customers J > are buying them.  Sell VMS on both platforms.  Keep their options open.   G They will do that if customer keep buying Alpha in sufficient quantity.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:55:30 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108341819.550f86e786ed251b3dde4745ca40bbe3@teranews>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > They will do that if customer keep buying Alpha in sufficient quantity.C   I am not so sure anymore.   O The road map has had slides changed from "at least until 2006" to "until 2006".e  @ If HP really does intent to justify the IA64 decision, they willG cannabalise Alpha and PaRisc and force customes onto IA64 to raise IA64rF sales. They are perfectly capable of making such a move. (big mistake, of course).t  E If the real strategy is to find a way out of IA64, the yes, they willnF continue both PaRisc and Alpha according to customer demand. 2004 sentG the stage for this with plenty of hints that IA64 wasn't viable in long0C term. 2005 will be an interesting year, especially in light of botho Intel and HP getting new CEOs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:49:46 -0500n( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <kZidnbJf5oo2aJLfRVn-jQ@metrocastcablevision.com>t   Larry Kilgallen wrote:\ > In article <110v9epootsmpfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  > J >>The itanic is here now, and from most reports it works reasonably well. I >>  The keys here are, #1, for how long will it be here, and #2, is it a   >>satisfactory CPU.  >>I >>For #1, that's up to Intel.  It's out of HP's hands.  To counter this, =K >>they could continue to have IBM fab the EV7/EV7z and possibly some minor gH >>mods, process shrinks, and such indefinitely, or as long as customers J >>are buying them.  Sell VMS on both platforms.  Keep their options open.  >  > I > They will do that if customer keep buying Alpha in sufficient quantity.n  @ Unfortunately, there are almost certainly nowhere nearly enough I customers so dependent on the Alpha platform that they would commit even oH further to it in sufficient numbers absent *any* indication of interest I (let alone real 'commitment') in it by its owner.  So the ball is, as it tI has always been, in said owner's court, and there's little evidence that sH I'm aware of that said owner will do anything but continue to ignore it.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:15:46 -0500t' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>o Subject: Re: HP should....0 Message-ID: <1110g0a7i60jfd3@corp.supernews.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:\ > In article <110v9epootsmpfb@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  > J >>The itanic is here now, and from most reports it works reasonably well. I >>  The keys here are, #1, for how long will it be here, and #2, is it a p >>satisfactory CPU.  >>I >>For #1, that's up to Intel.  It's out of HP's hands.  To counter this, 0K >>they could continue to have IBM fab the EV7/EV7z and possibly some minor  H >>mods, process shrinks, and such indefinitely, or as long as customers J >>are buying them.  Sell VMS on both platforms.  Keep their options open.  >  > I > They will do that if customer keep buying Alpha in sufficient quantity.m  F I'll wait to see the attitude of the next HP CEO before I totally buy G into that.  Carly's "burnt our bridges behind us" attitude did not let  > me feel that continuing sales of Alpha would extend it's life.   I hope you are right.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:53:09 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>h Subject: Re: HP should....B Message-ID: <1108363258.b4ae70c924abace070f6328a36e68579@teranews>   Dave Froble wrote:G > I'll wait to see the attitude of the next HP CEO before I totally buyeH > into that.  Carly's "burnt our bridges behind us" attitude did not let@ > me feel that continuing sales of Alpha would extend it's life.    D Somewhere inside HP is someone who really knows the true feelings ofC paying customers towards that IA64 thing. Something not filtered bye marketing. W  C A good CEO will find those persons and get the real story about how D custoemrs really feel. If he/she can't find it, he/she will hire and@ INDEPENDANT organisation to poll customers and NON customers andE especially FORMER customers. That is what Gerstner did at IBM when he>G realised that all of the customer data inside IBM was slanted by peopleoH who wanted to provide good news in order to get ahead in their carreers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:08:47 -0600j2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina firedc* Message-ID: <420FA5BF.6E6DBD7@comcast.net>   Dave Froble wrote: > [snip]J > Yeah, there are problems, and this isn't the forum for such.  But if youJ > want problems, try the insurance industry, the lawyers, and health care.  E All three suffer from a different variant of the same issue: applyingd@ capitalistic methodologies in ways of varying inappropriateness.   -- t David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:p" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/n   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Feb 2005 00:58:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired , Message-ID: <37abdtF5a3lljU1@individual.net>  0 In article <110tfrv3ebk812f@corp.supernews.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >> In article <1108253876.353923.148650@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,) >> 	tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com writes:  >> :I >>>increasingly dignity and freedom are a myth unless you are a CEO. have J >>>you not noticed the growing gap between the worker and the manager?  ifG >>>you do not own the means of production you are dirt in this country. G >>>and it is getting worse.  capitalism is reaching its final crisis inhB >>>which it can no longer resolve its own internal contradictions. >>>p >>>Dave Froble wrote:m >>>f( >>>>tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com wrote: >>>>H >>>>>so many good people lost their > While I deplore what some CEOs and >>>a# >>>others get, and definitaly don'tb >>>rB >>>>deserve, I'll take the abuses along with freedom.  Without the >>>a
 >>>dignity >>>dA >>>>and freedom individuals enjoy, there is nothing left for yourt >>>o >>>'proletariat'.s >>>u >>>>Or was this a troll? >> - >> -( >> Looks like he answered your question. >> 0 >> billm >>   >> <@ > Well let's see.  I'm a CEO, so I guess it's all Ok by me.  :-) > K > Yeah, there are problems, and this isn't the forum for such.  But if you 6J > want problems, try the insurance industry, the lawyers, and health care.  = Or you could just look at the successfull businesses and highe? standard of living of living in all those great marxist states.t, You know the ones I mean, Cuba, North Korea.   bill     -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:19:20 -0500e' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>s% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fireda0 Message-ID: <1110g71ilakqh42@corp.supernews.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:2 > In article <110tfrv3ebk812f@corp.supernews.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>F >>>In article <1108253876.353923.148650@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,) >>>	tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com writes:d >>>  >>>rJ >>>>increasingly dignity and freedom are a myth unless you are a CEO. haveK >>>>you not noticed the growing gap between the worker and the manager?  ifoH >>>>you do not own the means of production you are dirt in this country.H >>>>and it is getting worse.  capitalism is reaching its final crisis inC >>>>which it can no longer resolve its own internal contradictions.a >>>> >>>>Dave Froble wrote: >>>> >>>>) >>>>>tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com wrote:s >>>>>  >>>>>oI >>>>>>so many good people lost their > While I deplore what some CEOs and  >>>>$ >>>>others get, and definitaly don't >>>> >>>>C >>>>>deserve, I'll take the abuses along with freedom.  Without thea >>>> >>>>dignityc >>>> >>>>B >>>>>and freedom individuals enjoy, there is nothing left for your >>>> >>>>'proletariat'. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Or was this a troll?F >>>i >>>e( >>>Looks like he answered your question. >>>: >>>bill7 >>>  >>>b >>@ >>Well let's see.  I'm a CEO, so I guess it's all Ok by me.  :-) >>K >>Yeah, there are problems, and this isn't the forum for such.  But if you nJ >>want problems, try the insurance industry, the lawyers, and health care. >  > ? > Or you could just look at the successfull businesses and highkA > standard of living of living in all those great marxist states.,. > You know the ones I mean, Cuba, North Korea. >  > bill >  > H I really don't have a problem with things being run by the people.  Ok, F might need to define 'the people'.  Has there been even one communist D government, not including some places with multi-party systems like I France, Italy, and such, where it didn't end up being a dictatorship, or sL a single party system with no other attitudes allowed?  I don't know of any.   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Feb 2005 18:56:35 -08007 From: "meli121824@hotmail.com" <meli121824@hotmail.com>  Subject: it workshB Message-ID: <1108349795.811834.76600@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>  G Turn $6 into $6000.00 in two weeks! HOW TO TURN SIX DOLLARS =ADINTO SIX@ THOUSAND DOLLARS.j2 READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE! IT DOES WORK!C I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A li=ADttleoH while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are n=ADow, and2B came across an article similar to this that said you could m=ADakeG thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial inves=ADtment ofaH $6.00! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but =ADlike most  D of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said tha=ADt youG send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the artic=ADle.s YoujH then place your own name and address in the bottom of the li=ADst at #6,  ; and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are5C =ADthousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, andc talkin=ADg to aeF few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured "what hav=ADe I got H to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I invested the =ADmeasly  H $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!?... within 7 days, I started getting=AD money in  F the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but th=ADe moneyE just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. =ADBy the F end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In =ADthe thirdeD week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is n=ADow myG fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 =ADand it'suG still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 s=ADtamps, I.F have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you h=ADow thisH works and most importantly, WHY it works... Also, make sure =ADyou print  G a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off=AD of its asH you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions=AD exactly,  E that you will start making more money than you thought possi=ADble bys= doing something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message. carefully! (print it ou=ADt orF download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the mon=ADey comeF in! It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (P=ADlusD postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is =ADnotA illegal; and it is 99%no risk - it really works! If all of t=ADhe-H following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extr=ADaordinary  C dividends. PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and 
 $50=AD,000 oraF more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains suc=ADcessfulC because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Pl=ADeaserF continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructio=ADns. YouD will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this bus=ADinessE your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are i=ADn  theLD business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporation=ADs areA happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made  =ADfrom theUE mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from =ADpeopleL3 like you and me asking to be included in that list.l% Here are the 4 easy steps to success:h  D STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the followi=ADng onF each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get=AD 6 USH $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so =ADthe billE will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery).=AD Next,dG place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. Yo=ADu should-F now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stat=ADing theF above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What =ADyou areA doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You a=ADre:G requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! L=ADike mostiG of  us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the l=ADegalqC aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Of=ADficei< (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal.0 Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:? #1) Victor Bell; 5820 N Kenmore Chicago, Ill 60660; Apt. 20=AD1"6 #2) Lucia Joseph: 610 Lillian Terrace; Union, NJ 070832 #3) WM Budnik; 2127 Manawa Lane Tega Cay, SC 297081 #4) C. T. ; 340 Railroad Ave; Lexington, SC 29072 5 #5) F. Bryant; 1636 Violet Ave.; Titusville, Fl 32796 5 #6) Melissa Boland, 13 first ave, Pepperell MA, 01463i  E STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above=AD, move E the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YO=ADUR  Name as number 6 on the list.  G STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this ar=ADticle asqF close to original as possible. Now, post your amended articl=ADe to atG least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 gro=ADups) AlloG you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more m=ADoney you D make! You won't get very much unless you post like crazy. Th=ADis isG perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 S=ADec. 1302 D & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps =ADforC yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again,=AD andyF again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because=AD of theC honesty and integrity of the participants and by their caref=ADullyoA adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are =ADofiB integrity, the program will continue and the money that so m=ADany( others have received will come your way.C NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to =ADyou,eH either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send yo=ADu. ThisH VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it m=ADight be a  D good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the ri=ADsk of> mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions ca=ADrefullyH followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participa=ADtion as a  G List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up =ADthe listrH geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position=AD you will  G be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportu=ADnity foryH only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed ab=ADove) Send  @ it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business=AD!B ---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS-----------=AD- :G Step 1: You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do =ADyour own-F posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this let=ADter andE drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select =AD'copy'D= from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the@
 com=ADputer's  memory.   E Step 2: : Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor =ADat the H top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This=AD will  H paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your n=ADame to	 the list.e  F Step 3: : Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you =ADwant toG do your postings in different settings, you'll always have this=AD file' to go back to.d  D Step 4: : Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searchin=ADg forB various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sit=ADes,
 discussions.)0  F Step 5: : Visit these message boards and post this article a=ADs a newF message by highlighting the text of this letter and selectin=ADg pasteH from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the he=ADader that  A everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in=AD aeD particular group, click the post message button. You're done=AD withE your first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do i=ADs  jump toeG different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang o=ADf it, itOF will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, T=ADHE MOREH NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE! BUT YO=ADU HAVE TO  D POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin receiving =ADmoneyG from around the world within days! You may eventually want to ren=ADt apJ P=2EO.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wis=ADh to stayjG anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the post=ADman wille deliver it.a1 **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**nE Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the M=ADINIMUMaF 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond=AD to eachG of  the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 =ADeachv makeG 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each=AD, I will7E bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn =ADaroundE> and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5
 r=ADepliesC each, I will make an additional $625.00! OK, now here is the=AD funpE part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my=ADt name at): #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,1=AD25.00!!!sF Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 new=ADsgroupsG with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups=AD react IHF will receive $15,625,00! With an original investment of only=AD $6.00!F AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just t=ADake theH latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00=AD to names  F on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start =ADpostingC again. The thing to remember is do you realize that thousand=ADs ofhG people all over the world are joining the internet and reading thes=ADewD articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $6.00
 =ADand seeD if it really works?? I think so... People have said, "what if t=ADhe planF is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are=AD theH chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest =ADusers and  @ new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroup=ADsE everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 toe	 =AD50,000 C new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual=AD>A internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will reallyY work=AD.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:43:28 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t! Subject: Re: More HP should......m, Message-ID: <fd6dnVU0NuZsJpLfRVn-2g@igs.net>   Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote:cC >> Restart production of EV7z with the best process shrink they canoC >> do....I'm guessing a further 20-25% speed impovement is possiblee
 >> (Bill?) >rH > I'm guessing closer to 50% for, e.g., EV79.  But since they've alreadyD > pretty much missed the 130 nm. process generation, a bit more thanC > that in a 90 nm. or smaller process would be reasonable to expect D > (they couldn't ship even a straight EV7z shrink before 2007 at the > earliest). >aB > But if they went to that effort, resurrecting EV8 might be worthA > considering even if it would not be the industry leader when itnG > appeared that it would have been last year.  Hard to say, really:  ifLG > a resurrected EV8 didn't beat Itanic by any significant amount (and InB > suspect that it wouldn't:  as the saying goes, you can't go homeG > again - or, if you're of a more classical bent, you can't step in thee> > same river twice), then it wouldn't attract much *new* AlphaD > business, and it's not clear that it would take any more than justD > keeping EV7z available as-is and developing its OSs to retain thatE > portion of the existing Alpha base which is unwilling to migrate to>	 > Itanic." >M > , fab about 1l3 >> million of them and call them EV7-LC (low cost).h >>D >> In addition to the multi-cpu systems, stick these in  $1000 1-cpuF >> systems (comparable to typical Celeron-class machines....IDE drives& >> (maybe a driverless Raid controllerG >> http://www.arcoide.com/product_overviews.php ), adequate video card,0= >> a sound card, and USB support). Give a whole bunch away toRD >> universities, and ISV's for free. Sell the rest. Build demand forG >> apps by having more low-cost systems in the field. If building Alpha-D >> and IA64 compatible apps on an Alpha is so easy, they let's get 1A >> million low-cost 'development' systems out there for people tor >> develop on. >.E > The way to do that is to support VMS on inexpensive Itanic systems,eF > I'm afraid.  They're available today rather than two-plus years down > the road.c >oG > It's largely the existing customer base which is concerned about lack E > of current VMS applications on Itanic:  developers could use VMS tou > develop on Itanic just fine.  H Nearly $5k isn't such a low cost system at the low-end. It may be for an  Itanic, but not for the legions.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:51:39 -0500o( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: More HP should......S= Message-ID: <PvWdnYgplt_g143fRVn-2Q@metrocastcablevision.com>A   Dave Froble wrote: > John Smith wrote:- >  >>K >> Nearly $5k isn't such a low cost system at the low-end. It may be for ann# >> Itanic, but not for the legions.e >  >  > Half that for developers.a > 4 > Which is still 5 times what an x86 can be had for. > < > The other side of that is, what can one do with a $500 PC.  $ Just about anything one can imagine.      The( > Microsoft developer stuff isn't cheap.  D But there's plenty of open source stuff for free, including various E integrated development environments for both Windows and Linux (some  G based on gcc and its companion languages, but the WATCOM compilers are e now available free too).   - bill        It's my understanding that aoD > developer gets media and stuff for free.  Not sure about licenses. > 9 > Maybe the itanic for development isn't such a bad deal.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:34:53 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>% Subject: Re: nameserver configuration + Message-ID: <420FABDD.533791B8@comcast.net>T  / Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:m > > > In article <420E549B.23E8ADC4@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera% > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:m > L > > > I have several nameservers configured.  Recently, my ISP had a problemK > > > so that some but not all of the nameservers were not reachable.  This K > > > crippled my internet access.  I then added another nameserver which I"L > > > knew was working and---I still couldn't "get out".  I then removed all4 > > > the other nameservers, and then things worked. > > >-M > > > What am I doing wrong?  I would think that the purpose of being able tooN > > > configure more than one nameserver is for failover purposes, i.e. if theG > > > first one doesn't work it tries the second.  This obviously isn'th > > > working in my case.  > > >eI > > > VMS 7.3-1 (ALPHA) and 7.3 (VAX), Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS  > > > Version V5.3 - ECO 4 > >tK > > In general (since I can't speak to UCX directly), I would think it verybK > > likely that a reboot would be needed to make that kind of change. Never-$ > > tried that with TCPware, either. > > D > > I can do it with Multinet while the system is running, but it is > > non-trivial. >  > ???e > I > SET CONFIG NAME changes the configuration on disk, SET NAME changes theeH > configuration in memory.  It can be either /SYSTEM (for all processes)7 > or /PROCESS (just forthe process issuing the command.n  E ...then, you have to ensure that the servers are listed in the proper1G order IN THE RUNNING SYSTEM. That could mean bouncing NAMED (or its UCXe equivalent).   -- 0 David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:D" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/t   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:32:42 -0600a2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>( Subject: Re: VMS Group purchase process?+ Message-ID: <420FAB5A.D316C3F2@comcast.net>s   JF Mezei wrote:e >  > John Smith wrote:e > > Wayman or Dunn.. > G > Not enough. You'd need to get a feel from all of the board before youm! > make a formal offer to the CEO.u  * I did say, "open the negotiations", right?   -- L David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:31:01 -0600d2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: VMS Opportunity? + Message-ID: <420FAAF4.99D8EA73@comcast.net>u   Jeff Cameron wrote:V > M > My company (MTI) was born providing inexpensive storage alternatives to VMS M > customers. In the past 12 years we, like the industry, has seen the declinei6 > in VMS, and therefore changes our focus accordingly.  C Indeed. A former site of mine (still in biz, they laid me off early A March of 2000) was running TapeControl and Oasis/RLM when I left.e  E > While many customers moved away from VMS, there was a core of thoseaL > customers who decided to stay with VMS and continue to be strong customersF > for us, still using and maintaining our services for VMS, despite my: > company's labeling our line of VMS products as "Legacy".  D Quite. When I left that site, they were running some DCL code that IC built around TapeControl and Oasis/RLM. That same code has seen twoyC further iterations where the core procedure - the one that actually,; performs the BACKUPs - has been modified to run with MRU ondD mini-libraries like Tx8x7, and also with no media management for use$ with non-automated drives like Tx8x.  N > In late 2003 and later very strong in 2004, we are quite definitely seeing aL > trend with our installed VMS base, and that is modernization and increase.H > Would you believe that even though we "End-of-Lifed" our CIQBA productJ > (Q-Bus adapter for CI interconnect for MicroVAX systems) 6 years ago, inN > 2004 I sold eight CIQBAs to different customers who were expanding their VAX > Cluster systems. Go Figure!t  D There is no replacement for VMS clusters. Like it or else, customersE (like me) will continue to use what works. If they happen to be stuck F with Q-Bus based VAXes due to ISV abandonments, well, put it this way:C if these biz-school "sharpies" were really as sharp as they like towB think they are they'd be finding ways to exploit that, rather than suppress it.  L > Also we have seen that customers who switched to Veritas and/or Legato forG > backup solutions, have dropped those products and come back to us foreJ > Heterogeneous enterprise backup solutions because of one simple feature.H > Even though Veritas (no longer supporting VMS) and Legato offer fasterI > backup times, they don't offer backup in native VMS backup format, thusgJ > increasing Disaster recovery time. Our product does backup in native VMSF > format (and native UNIX TAR/CPOI formats). This one feature has beenL > responsible for a resurgence in sales for our "Legacy" VMS centric network > backup software.  H How timely. I just opened a correspondence with MG on that very topic inE response to a post I saw here in c.o.v. re: No SLS on I64. Guess SP32uD will be making THOSE dollars, instead of HP/VMS. Now *THAT's* astute$ business practice as its finest! ;-)  J > I have one customer who is running 5.3 of VMS and used our HSM archivingK > product for more than 10 years now, and has no intention of going off VMSeJ > for one reason. His system has been up all that time; 24x7x365.24x10 and > counting.r  B I once became aware of a local site running doing their home-grownD application dveelopment in DIBOL - VAX DIBOL, to be exact, then theyG VEST the .EXEs to Alpha. Dunno if they still do that, but it was within, the last four calendar years.H   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:V" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/b  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/e   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:28:27 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>- Subject: Re: VMS Opportunity? , Message-ID: <j4-dnZXKirXBN5LfRVn-gQ@igs.net>   Jeff Cameron wrote:oF > My company (MTI) was born providing inexpensive storage alternativesC > to VMS customers. In the past 12 years we, like the industry, haswG > seen the decline in VMS, and therefore changes our focus accordingly.  >pE > While many customers moved away from VMS, there was a core of thoseuB > customers who decided to stay with VMS and continue to be strongE > customers for us, still using and maintaining our services for VMS, E > despite my company's labeling our line of VMS products as "Legacy".  >eE > In late 2003 and later very strong in 2004, we are quite definitelyoG > seeing a trend with our installed VMS base, and that is modernization4D > and increase. Would you believe that even though we "End-of-Lifed"C > our CIQBA product (Q-Bus adapter for CI interconnect for MicroVAXt@ > systems) 6 years ago, in 2004 I sold eight CIQBAs to differentD > customers who were expanding their VAX Cluster systems. Go Figure! > A > Also we have seen that customers who switched to Veritas and/orrC > Legato for backup solutions, have dropped those products and comeoE > back to us for Heterogeneous enterprise backup solutions because of'D > one simple feature. Even though Veritas (no longer supporting VMS)B > and Legato offer faster backup times, they don't offer backup inG > native VMS backup format, thus increasing Disaster recovery time. OurgD > product does backup in native VMS format (and native UNIX TAR/CPOIE > formats). This one feature has been responsible for a resurgence ino= > sales for our "Legacy" VMS centric network backup software.w >e@ > I have one customer who is running 5.3 of VMS and used our HSMG > archiving product for more than 10 years now, and has no intention ofaE > going off VMS for one reason. His system has been up all that time;l > 24x7x365.24x10 and counting.     Jeff,,  G Sounds to me like your company ought to be mentioned in an ad featuringn VMS....paid for by HP.   John --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:54:50 -0500h% From: "Hottime" <HotHOT2@comcast.net> > Subject: [FREE!] Swingers Websites!                    t_yc33#0 Message-ID: <L-edncdjss7So43fRVn-vg@comcast.com>             .e" ----------------------------------  0 Want to get laid tonight??  Find local girls now  1 http://www.youandmeswing.com/index.php?ref_id=130r    " ----------------------------------            	 ,iy^3aQvwi   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.089 ************************ "at least until 2006" to "until 2006".e  @ If HP really does intent to justify the IA64 decision, they willG cannabalise Alpha and PaRisc and force customes onto IA64 to raise IA64rF sales. 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