0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 15 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 92      Contents:P ANOUNCEMENT: zsplit, unzsplit: free linux tools to make a full drive image backuP Re: ANOUNCEMENT: zsplit, unzsplit: free linux tools to make a full drive image b< Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list?@ Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list?@ Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list?@ Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list?@ Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list?@ Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? Re: Cluster assembler % Data replication / disaster tolerance ) RE: Data replication / disaster tolerance ) RE: Data replication / disaster tolerance 3 Re: DCL command to show number of interactive users / DCL command to show number of interactive users 3 Re: DCL command to show number of interactive users 3 Re: DCL command to show number of interactive users  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  RE: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: Fixing Carly's Mess  Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: HP should....  Re: HP should....  Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: IBM Linux and Universities Re: IBM Linux and Universities RE: IBM Linux and Universities Re: IBM Linux and Universities IBM's 'Chiphopper'1 Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions ! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP ! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP ! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP ! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP ! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP ! RE: Mounting disks during STARTUP  NFS mounts to Solaris Server# Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution % Re: OT- Like IBM stock when it was $1  Queue Length on shadow disk  Re: Queue Length on shadow disk " Strange (to me) ACP lookup failure& Re: Strange (to me) ACP lookup failure$ TURN $6.00 INTO $60,000 really works5 [FREE!] Swingers Websites!                    Ljw*(r#   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 00:36:28 -08003 From: jurij@device-image.de (jurij@device-image.de) Y Subject: ANOUNCEMENT: zsplit, unzsplit: free linux tools to make a full drive image backu < Message-ID: <357c3f33.0502150036.d20e051@posting.google.com>  1 Please visit the homepage of DeviceImage-Project:  http://www.device-image.de  D Disk images provide a powerful backup-restore solution and are exactF copies of your hard drive which are created by using low level byte byC byte copy operation. So even if your drive goes bad, you will still 8 have an entire copy of your system that you can restore.  ( zsplit and unsplit are Linux utilities. D zsplit is a command line imager, which allows you to create an exactE disk image. Finally it compresses the output image file and splits it D into chunks of defined size to fit exactly the size of storage media (CD, DVD or HDD).   F unzsplit is a command line restore tool. It restores files produced byF zsplit to its origin, i.e. splitted and compressed image files will beB uncompressed, tied together and restored to the original device or
 partition.   Key Features :   1. runs under GNU/Linux OS    F 2. creates images from FAT16, FAT16X, FAT32, FAT32X, NTFS (MS Windows-E 95, -98, -Me, -NT4, -2000, -XP), Linux Ext2, Linux Ext3, ReiserFS and  Linux swap partitions.  D 3. is able to create images from Very Large Files or devices (tested with 200 Gygabyte devices)  C 4. output image files can be compressed to various density (900 MiB C (megabyte binary) FAT32 partition can be compressed to 350 - 400 MB  and can be stored on one CD)  @ 5. output image file can be splitted into pieces of defined size  E 6. in case of partially damaged devices, blocks and/or sectors safely " reads all remaining intact sectors  C 7. supports non-seekable input and output (so you can use pipes for  stdin and/or stdout)  1 Please visit the homepage of DeviceImage-Project:  http://www.device-image.de   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:45:59 +0100C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) Y Subject: Re: ANOUNCEMENT: zsplit, unzsplit: free linux tools to make a full drive image b 2 Message-ID: <4211c4d7$1@merkur.rz.uni-konstanz.de>  < In article <357c3f33.0502150036.d20e051@posting.google.com>,5 jurij@device-image.de (jurij@device-image.de) writes: 2 >Please visit the homepage of DeviceImage-Project: >http://www.device-image.de  > E >Disk images provide a powerful backup-restore solution and are exact G >copies of your hard drive which are created by using low level byte by D >byte copy operation. So even if your drive goes bad, you will still9 >have an entire copy of your system that you can restore.  > ) >zsplit and unsplit are Linux utilities.  E >zsplit is a command line imager, which allows you to create an exact F >disk image. Finally it compresses the output image file and splits itE >into chunks of defined size to fit exactly the size of storage media  >(CD, DVD or HDD). > G >unzsplit is a command line restore tool. It restores files produced by G >zsplit to its origin, i.e. splitted and compressed image files will be C >uncompressed, tied together and restored to the original device or  >partition.  >  >Key Features :  >  >1. runs under GNU/Linux OS  > G >2. creates images from FAT16, FAT16X, FAT32, FAT32X, NTFS (MS Windows- F >95, -98, -Me, -NT4, -2000, -XP), Linux Ext2, Linux Ext3, ReiserFS and >Linux swap partitions.  > E >3. is able to create images from Very Large Files or devices (tested  >with 200 Gygabyte devices)  > D >4. output image files can be compressed to various density (900 MiBD >(megabyte binary) FAT32 partition can be compressed to 350 - 400 MB >and can be stored on one CD)  > A >5. output image file can be splitted into pieces of defined size  > F >6. in case of partially damaged devices, blocks and/or sectors safely# >reads all remaining intact sectors  > D >7. supports non-seekable input and output (so you can use pipes for >stdin and/or stdout)  > 2 >Please visit the homepage of DeviceImage-Project: >http://www.device-image.de  >    Jurij,  0 This program has no chance to run under OpenVMS.  H There is a freeware program called DVDarchive/restore that does this job under OpenVMS.  C If you use DVDwrite or cdrecord for OpenVMS in combination with the G program mentioned above you have the complete suite to archive the same $ volume size of 200 GB you mentioned.   Eberhard  ' see: http://home.tiscali.de/dvd4openvms    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:01:52 -0500  From: norm.raphael@metso.comE Subject: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? Q Message-ID: <OFB132A360.14F8065D-ON85256FA9.004D0B13-85256FA9.004D601E@metso.com>    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:09:36 GMT 1 From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> I Subject: Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? : Message-ID: <slrnd140km.bsj.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>  E On 2005-02-15, norm.raphael@metso.com <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote: 	 (nothing)   H 1) I, at least, am reading it as a Usenet newsgroup, not a mailing list.I 2) It's "spam", not "SPAM". The latter is a trademark of Hormel for their I canned meat product. Hormel has a wonderful corporate sense of humor, and G doesn't mind people using the word "spam" as long as they don't use the I capitalized version. Since they're being clueful about it, honoring their  request is reasonable.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:57:18 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukI Subject: Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? ) Message-ID: <cut2ke$ptc$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   n In article <slrnd140km.bsj.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> writes:F >On 2005-02-15, norm.raphael@metso.com <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote:
 >(nothing) > I >1) I, at least, am reading it as a Usenet newsgroup, not a mailing list. J >2) It's "spam", not "SPAM". The latter is a trademark of Hormel for theirJ >canned meat product. Hormel has a wonderful corporate sense of humor, andH >doesn't mind people using the word "spam" as long as they don't use theJ >capitalized version. Since they're being clueful about it, honoring their >request is reasonable.  >   $ Hormel lost their trademark case see  4 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/31/spam_ruling/  
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:21:23 GMT 1 From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> I Subject: Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? : Message-ID: <slrnd144re.cbc.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>  I On 2005-02-15, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote: p > In article <slrnd140km.bsj.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> writes:K >>2) It's "spam", not "SPAM". The latter is a trademark of Hormel for their K >>canned meat product. Hormel has a wonderful corporate sense of humor, and I >>doesn't mind people using the word "spam" as long as they don't use the K >>capitalized version. Since they're being clueful about it, honoring their  >>request is reasonable.& > Hormel lost their trademark case see6 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/31/spam_ruling/  C That case did not invalidate the SPAM trademark; it only refused to E invalidate another trademark with the word "spam" in it that referred " specifically to the email variety.  G It's still a Good Idea to respect Hormel's wishes with respect to their  trademarks.    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 09:21:12 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) I Subject: Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? 3 Message-ID: <Q6r2SgPLygMT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   J In article <cut2ke$ptc$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:p > In article <slrnd140km.bsj.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> writes:G >>On 2005-02-15, norm.raphael@metso.com <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote:  >>(nothing)  >>J >>1) I, at least, am reading it as a Usenet newsgroup, not a mailing list.K >>2) It's "spam", not "SPAM". The latter is a trademark of Hormel for their K >>canned meat product. Hormel has a wonderful corporate sense of humor, and I >>doesn't mind people using the word "spam" as long as they don't use the K >>capitalized version. Since they're being clueful about it, honoring their  >>request is reasonable. >> > & > Hormel lost their trademark case see > 6 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/31/spam_ruling/   Only in the UK.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:34:40 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukI Subject: Re: Anyone notice that SPAM has started creeping into this list? ) Message-ID: <cut8b0$s02$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   c In article <Q6r2SgPLygMT@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: K >In article <cut2ke$ptc$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: q >> In article <slrnd140km.bsj.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx>, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx> writes: H >>>On 2005-02-15, norm.raphael@metso.com <norm.raphael@metso.com> wrote: >>>(nothing) >>> K >>>1) I, at least, am reading it as a Usenet newsgroup, not a mailing list. L >>>2) It's "spam", not "SPAM". The latter is a trademark of Hormel for theirL >>>canned meat product. Hormel has a wonderful corporate sense of humor, andJ >>>doesn't mind people using the word "spam" as long as they don't use theL >>>capitalized version. Since they're being clueful about it, honoring their >>>request is reasonable.  >>>  >>  ' >> Hormel lost their trademark case see  >>  7 >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/31/spam_ruling/  >  >Only in the UK.    K I'm not sure whether they have actually lost against Spam Arrest in the US.    See  http://spamarrest.com/pr/     However other sites such as   9 http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/175511_spam29.html   I expected it to be settled within 90 days of Spam Arrests call for summary F judgement, in May 2004,  and Spam Arrest still seem to be in business.    
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:16:05 +0100 , From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl> Subject: Re: Cluster assembler, Message-ID: <37ei5gF5c3bkiU1@individual.net>  1 "ugex" <edgar_ulloa@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht = news:1108472411.033852.275420@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... ) > Hans Basicly that is my principal doubt  > 1 > How I need to pu the boot flags >>> b -fl  ...? . > because I dont know which parameters put it. >  > Thanks for your comments >   7 The command is >>> boot -flags <root>,<option> <device>   I Generally a standalone VMS system you boot from sys$sysdevice:[sys0.] and : without special options, resulting in >>> b -fl 0,0 dka100* Here dka100 is a SCSI disk that holds VMS.L Now network roots usually are created by default in [SYS10.] and onwards, so6 the appropriate bootcommand is:  >>> b -fl 10,0 dka100L In cases where you want to modify system parameters at boot time, use option 1. Thus G >>> b -fl 0,1 dka100 boots VMS from [SYS0.] on device dka100 and enters / interactive mode (you get the SYSBOOT> prompt). D Try hp.com and select servers, Alpha servers, VMS, documentation and# download a VMS installation manual.    Hans   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:13:45 -0500 * From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>. Subject: Data replication / disaster tolerance4 Message-ID: <9snQd.2993$df.109811@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   Hi  E We would like to establish to OpenVMS sites, each with their own SAN. / We want the data to be replicated in real time.   : The 2 sites will be at each end of a big processing plant.  ? Can someone give me pointers on how to setup the configuration? D Ideally we would like the 2 VMS nodes in a VMScluster (not just as aC failover option). Users could connect to either node, but if room A L explodes, the computer in room B should continue to operate and serve users.F Of course users connected to the room A node, would have to reconnect.   Diagram:  % AlphaVMS "A"             AlphaVMS "B" .      |                                       |.      |                                       | SAN "A"----------------SAN "B"  D If room A explodes, the link between the 2 SAN's is lost, but Room B continues to operate normally.    G How would the replication work? Will the 2 SAN do it between themselves I (with VMS not really aware of the process)? That is my guess, as shown in  the diagram.L With fiber optics, how far apart can the 2 sites be? (it will be within 1000/ feet I believe but I don't have the shop plan). , Do I need another VMS box to get the quorum?  J Any pointers to documentation, or your comments about known installations, are welcome.       Thanks   --   Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:52:02 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> 2 Subject: RE: Data replication / disaster toleranceR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F3E7@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Syltrem [mailto:syltremzulu@videotron.ca]=20! > Sent: February 15, 2005 9:14 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 0 > Subject: Data replication / disaster tolerance >=20 > Hi >=20G > We would like to establish to OpenVMS sites, each with their own SAN. 1 > We want the data to be replicated in real time.  >=20< > The 2 sites will be at each end of a big processing plant. >=20A > Can someone give me pointers on how to setup the configuration? F > Ideally we would like the 2 VMS nodes in a VMScluster (not just as aE > failover option). Users could connect to either node, but if room A @ > explodes, the computer in room B should continue to operate=20 > and serve users.H > Of course users connected to the room A node, would have to reconnect. >=20
 > Diagram: >=20' > AlphaVMS "A"             AlphaVMS "B" 0 >      |                                       |0 >      |                                       |  > SAN "A"----------------SAN "B" >=20F > If room A explodes, the link between the 2 SAN's is lost, but Room B  > continues to operate normally. >=20 >=20A > How would the replication work? Will the 2 SAN do it between=20  > themselvesB > (with VMS not really aware of the process)? That is my guess,=20
 > as shown in  > the diagram.B > With fiber optics, how far apart can the 2 sites be? (it will=20 > be within 10001 > feet I believe but I don't have the shop plan). . > Do I need another VMS box to get the quorum? >=20@ > Any pointers to documentation, or your comments about known=20 > installations, > are welcome. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > --=20 	 > Syltrem  >=20  > OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4@ > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site,=20 > en fran=E7ais)' > ---zulu is not in my email address---      A few misc suggestions:   H - 1 cluster with local independent system disks that are each based on =J HW RAID. This allows site1 to be upgraded while load is handled by site2 = and vice versa.   ? - Host based volume shadowing (HBVS) for all drives that have = J critical/important data - including common drive for things like SYSUAF, =H start-up procedures, common files etc. Data is 100% consistent at both = sites at all times.   H - if avail is really important, then each local member of the HBVS set =G is a HW RAID device. That way a drive replacement is rebuilt at local = . controller and intersite link is not impacted.  D - 1,000 feet is almost nothing in terms of relative distances that = OpenVMS clusters support.   I - HBVS has sysgen parameters set up to identify local/remote members of = 
 HBVS sets.=20   9 - use new HBMM features available for VMS V7.3-2 or V8.2.   H - ideally, application is cluster aware and users can be load balanced =B across all systems at both sites at the same time. Allows one to =I dynamically shift user loads by simply disabling logins on servers that = A are planned for maint. Current users/connections continue until = C completion, but all new connections go to other servers. When all = H connections/users gone, that server can be shutdown - end users do not =G even know you are shutting the system down. This is great feature for = : high avail mfging and other mission critical environments.  / - reference the following pointers/whitepapers: B http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5983-0191EN.pdf (overview)@ http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5982-9662EN.pdf (techie)E http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v1/disastertol.pdf (Keith =  Parris Whitepaper)I http://www2.openvms.org/kparris/ (Keith Parris presentations on OpenVMS =  DR clusters)     Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:42:56 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: RE: Data replication / disaster tolerance$ Message-ID: <cutcav$rvn$3@online.de>  
 In articleG <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F3E7@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>, * "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:   I > > We would like to establish to OpenVMS sites, each with their own SAN. 3 > > We want the data to be replicated in real time.   G Host-based volume shadowing.  (The individual members can be raid sets  I or whatever, though you might want to build a raid set of shadowed disks   rather than vice versa.)  > > > The 2 sites will be at each end of a big processing plant.  G Not good.  Didn't someone have a "disaster-tolerant datacenter" in two  F separate buildings---the two towers of the World Trade Center?  A bit # more distance would be much better.   C > > Can someone give me pointers on how to setup the configuration? H > > Ideally we would like the 2 VMS nodes in a VMScluster (not just as aG > > failover option). Users could connect to either node, but if room A ? > > explodes, the computer in room B should continue to operate  > > and serve users.  C Read up on the concept of cluster quorum.  You probably want three   separate sites.   J > > Of course users connected to the room A node, would have to reconnect.  G How are they connecting?  Make use of DECnet and TCPIP cluster aliases  F so that they don't have to worry about WHERE they have to reconnect.  H Write all applications as restartable batch jobs and use submit/restart > to a generic queue (or have the queue configured to failover).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:07:51 +0100 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>< Subject: Re: DCL command to show number of interactive usersB Message-ID: <42122c67$0$13220$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > anyone know any? >  > $ ?  >  $ set loginsK %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 37    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 09:03:15 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com 8 Subject: DCL command to show number of interactive usersC Message-ID: <1108486994.973011.130710@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    anyone know any?   $ ?    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 09:21:20 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> < Subject: Re: DCL command to show number of interactive usersC Message-ID: <1108488080.333490.188060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > anyone know any? >  > $ ?    $ show user 7       OpenVMS User Processes at 15-FEB-2005 13:07:03.55 7     Total number of users = 1,  number of processes = 7   3  Username  Node     Interactive  Subprocess   Batch '  SYSTEM   ASIMOV            6         1    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:07:58 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com < Subject: Re: DCL command to show number of interactive usersC Message-ID: <1108490878.054003.175460@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   . wrong, wrong ... I don't want to have to parse0 output but do a system call to retrieve a number into a symbol ...    $ ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:18:13 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>   Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess8 Message-ID: <0UkQd.4730$dZ.242019@news20.bellglobal.com>  ; "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message  - news:fAcTYawA8wPb@eisner.encompasserve.org... 7 > In article <2A1Qd.56210$uL5.19835@fe2.texas.rr.com>,  / > LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) writes: F >>    http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1026920,00.htmlK >>    Business 2.0 :: Online Article :: Working Tech :: Fixing Carly's Mess  >> >>   "Fixing Carly's Mess ( >>    By Owen Thomas,  February 10, 2005 >> >>    [snip] >>K >>    HP's high-end server lines, like Integrity and NonStop, have suffered L >>    from years of neglect. Some recent moves, like revamping the IntegrityK >>    line and extending support for the VMS operating system, have pointed L >>    in the right direction. More of the same -- much more -- is needed..." > H > Yes, of Carly had been coding instead of all that other stuff the port  > would have gone a lot quicker.  J I've been thinking a lot lately about "Carly's Mess" and have come to the J conclusion that it wasn't entirely her fault. First off, she was put into L that position by a board of directors who seemed to be going in a different F direction than that of the founding families. (p.s. It looks like the 7 founding families where right and the board was wrong).   J On top of that, there have been articles lately proclaiming her to be the F worst CEO ever. How soon we forget about Nortel, Global Crossing, 360 M Networks, Enron, WorldCom and others. Many of Carly's actions (or inactions)  J may have seemed criminal to this newsgroup but she won't be going to jail  for doing anything illegal.   G But let me jump back to my first point; the problem (IMHO) with modern  J business is that non-technical people believe that anyone with an MBA can L run any company. Well, HP is a technical company and should be directly run L by technical people taking advice from financial people. Take a look around F at the currently successful technical companies and you'll see that a K technical guy is sitting at the top. Here are a few examples from my short   list:   	 Microsoft  Oracle Apple  RIM  OpenText  M On the flip side, both DEC and Lotus (and others) started to go down for the  J count almost as soon as the technical guy was replaced by a financial guy.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2005 14:11:08 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess, Message-ID: <37ee7sF5c71e8U2@individual.net>  8 In article <0UkQd.4730$dZ.242019@news20.bellglobal.com>,, 	"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > = > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message  / > news:fAcTYawA8wPb@eisner.encompasserve.org... 8 >> In article <2A1Qd.56210$uL5.19835@fe2.texas.rr.com>, 0 >> LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) writes:G >>>    http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1026920,00.html L >>>    Business 2.0 :: Online Article :: Working Tech :: Fixing Carly's Mess >>>  >>>   "Fixing Carly's Mess) >>>    By Owen Thomas,  February 10, 2005  >>> 
 >>>    [snip]  >>> L >>>    HP's high-end server lines, like Integrity and NonStop, have sufferedM >>>    from years of neglect. Some recent moves, like revamping the Integrity L >>>    line and extending support for the VMS operating system, have pointedM >>>    in the right direction. More of the same -- much more -- is needed..."  >>I >> Yes, of Carly had been coding instead of all that other stuff the port ! >> would have gone a lot quicker.  > L > I've been thinking a lot lately about "Carly's Mess" and have come to the L > conclusion that it wasn't entirely her fault. First off, she was put into N > that position by a board of directors who seemed to be going in a different H > direction than that of the founding families. (p.s. It looks like the 9 > founding families where right and the board was wrong).  > L > On top of that, there have been articles lately proclaiming her to be the H > worst CEO ever. How soon we forget about Nortel, Global Crossing, 360 O > Networks, Enron, WorldCom and others. Many of Carly's actions (or inactions)  L > may have seemed criminal to this newsgroup but she won't be going to jail  > for doing anything illegal.   ? I don't think anyone here ever thought Carly was doing anything ? illegal.  They just thought she was incompetent.  It looks like  they were right.   > I > But let me jump back to my first point; the problem (IMHO) with modern  L > business is that non-technical people believe that anyone with an MBA can N > run any company. Well, HP is a technical company and should be directly run N > by technical people taking advice from financial people. Take a look around H > at the currently successful technical companies and you'll see that a M > technical guy is sitting at the top. Here are a few examples from my short   > list:  >  > Microsoft   C What technical guy is sitting at the head of Microsoft?  Surely you  don't mean Gates?    > Oracle > Apple  > RIM 
 > OpenText > O > On the flip side, both DEC and Lotus (and others) started to go down for the  L > count almost as soon as the technical guy was replaced by a financial guy. >    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:50:53 -0500 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>   Subject: RE: Fixing Carly's MessR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F3DB@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Neil Rieck [mailto:n.rieck@sympatico.ca]=20 ! > Sent: February 15, 2005 6:18 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com " > Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess >=20 >=20  
 [snip ...]  ? > But let me jump back to my first point; the problem (IMHO)=20  > with modern=20> > business is that non-technical people believe that anyone=20 > with an MBA can=20@ > run any company. Well, HP is a technical company and should=20 > be directly run=20B > by technical people taking advice from financial people. Take=20 > a look around=20J > at the currently successful technical companies and you'll see that a=20A > technical guy is sitting at the top. Here are a few examples=20  > from my short=20 > list:  >=20 > Microsoft  > Oracle > Apple  > RIM 
 > OpenText >=20A > On the flip side, both DEC and Lotus (and others) started to=20  > go down for the=20@ > count almost as soon as the technical guy was replaced by a=20 > financial guy. >=20     Neil,   H Actually, I would suggest that, generally speaking, neither a techie nor8 a finance person should lead large companies these days.  F Imho, it is a Services, Customer focussed person who should be leadingH and understands that Customers these days want integrated solutions with' the comfort of long term support plans.   C Course, Lou Gerstner is a good example. He was a cookie company CEO 2 before IBM, but he understood Customers very well.   Course, ymmv ..    :-)   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:59:53 GMT # From: Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com>   Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess; Message-ID: <Z%oQd.41697$pc5.17014@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:: > In article <0UkQd.4730$dZ.242019@news20.bellglobal.com>,. > 	"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > = >>"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message  / >>news:fAcTYawA8wPb@eisner.encompasserve.org...  >>8 >>>In article <2A1Qd.56210$uL5.19835@fe2.texas.rr.com>, 0 >>>LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) writes: >>> G >>>>   http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1026920,00.html L >>>>   Business 2.0 :: Online Article :: Working Tech :: Fixing Carly's Mess >>>> >>>>  "Fixing Carly's Mess) >>>>   By Owen Thomas,  February 10, 2005  >>>>
 >>>>   [snip]  >>>>L >>>>   HP's high-end server lines, like Integrity and NonStop, have sufferedM >>>>   from years of neglect. Some recent moves, like revamping the Integrity L >>>>   line and extending support for the VMS operating system, have pointedM >>>>   in the right direction. More of the same -- much more -- is needed..."  >>> I >>>Yes, of Carly had been coding instead of all that other stuff the port ! >>>would have gone a lot quicker.  >>L >>I've been thinking a lot lately about "Carly's Mess" and have come to the L >>conclusion that it wasn't entirely her fault. First off, she was put into N >>that position by a board of directors who seemed to be going in a different H >>direction than that of the founding families. (p.s. It looks like the 9 >>founding families where right and the board was wrong).  >>L >>On top of that, there have been articles lately proclaiming her to be the H >>worst CEO ever. How soon we forget about Nortel, Global Crossing, 360 O >>Networks, Enron, WorldCom and others. Many of Carly's actions (or inactions)  L >>may have seemed criminal to this newsgroup but she won't be going to jail  >>for doing anything illegal.T >  > A > I don't think anyone here ever thought Carly was doing anything,A > illegal.  They just thought she was incompetent.  It looks likeN > they were right. >  > I >>But let me jump back to my first point; the problem (IMHO) with modern  L >>business is that non-technical people believe that anyone with an MBA can N >>run any company. Well, HP is a technical company and should be directly run N >>by technical people taking advice from financial people. Take a look around H >>at the currently successful technical companies and you'll see that a M >>technical guy is sitting at the top. Here are a few examples from my short a >>list:i >> >>Microsofte >  > E > What technical guy is sitting at the head of Microsoft?  Surely yous > don't mean Gates?C    E See the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley.  As a young MIT student, he oG wrote a quick OS for an early computer. He is both technical and really . understands marketing and is a great futurist.   >  >  >>Oracle >>Apples >>RIM 
 >>OpenText >>O >>On the flip side, both DEC and Lotus (and others) started to go down for the  L >>count almost as soon as the technical guy was replaced by a financial guy. >> >  >  > bill >    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 08:10:00 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>   Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's MessB Message-ID: <1108483800.417190.61560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Beach Runner wrote:u  G > > What technical guy is sitting at the head of Microsoft?  Surely your > > don't mean Gates?e >  > F > See the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley.  As a young MIT student, heB > wrote a quick OS for an early computer. He is both technical and really0 > understands marketing and is a great futurist. >i  D Actually Bill Gates went to Havard.  What he wrote (or had a hand inE writing) was a version of BASIC for the MITS Altair 8800 computer.  IlC would say he's fairly technical and certainly quite intelligent andn= obviously great at marketing.  The rest I have no comment on.o     John H. Reinhardt8   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2005 16:19:00 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess, Message-ID: <37elnkF5dove8U1@individual.net>  B In article <1108483800.417190.61560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,> 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Beach Runner wrote:- > H >> > What technical guy is sitting at the head of Microsoft?  Surely you >> > don't mean Gates? >> >>G >> See the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley.  As a young MIT student, hemC >> wrote a quick OS for an early computer. He is both technical ando > really1 >> understands marketing and is a great futurist.p >> > F > Actually Bill Gates went to Havard.  What he wrote (or had a hand inG > writing) was a version of BASIC for the MITS Altair 8800 computer.  IlE > would say he's fairly technical and certainly quite intelligent andw? > obviously great at marketing.  The rest I have no comment on.r >   > Funny, I was always led to believe that the technical work wasC actually done by his partner and Gates spent his time "networking".t  ? It wasn't his technical prowess that got MS started, it was hisf mother's contacts at IBM.e   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 08:38:13 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>w  Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's MessB Message-ID: <1108485493.580810.70940@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1108483800.417190.61560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,@ > 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: > >  > > Beach Runner wrote:  > >tF > >> > What technical guy is sitting at the head of Microsoft?  Surely yout > >> > don't mean Gates? > >> > >>F > >> See the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley.  As a young MIT student, heE > >> wrote a quick OS for an early computer. He is both technical ando
 > > really3 > >> understands marketing and is a great futurist./ > >> > > E > > Actually Bill Gates went to Havard.  What he wrote (or had a hand- inF > > writing) was a version of BASIC for the MITS Altair 8800 computer. I G > > would say he's fairly technical and certainly quite intelligent andjA > > obviously great at marketing.  The rest I have no comment on.f > >r > @ > Funny, I was always led to believe that the technical work wasE > actually done by his partner and Gates spent his time "networking".e >a  E That's why I said "had a hand in writing."  I was only in High Schooli< at the time so what I know of this era came from reading theG periodicals of that time - Byte, Dr. Dobbs Journal (The Tiny Basic one,y> precursor to the current magazine), People's Computer Company,+ Kilobyte/Kilobaud, Creative Computing, etc.s  A > It wasn't his technical prowess that got MS started, it was hisn > mother's contacts at IBM.n  G IBM didn't enter the personal computer world until 1981(ish). MicrosoftsA had been producing BASIC for several companies since 1977/78.  IttB certainly is possible that his mother's contacts got Microsoft theF foothold that enabled it to license IBM the DOS O/S that Microsoft hadG bought from Seattle Computer Products but Microsoft was a going concerns long before that.t     John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:11:10 -0500e( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess= Message-ID: <5OOdnTZtmdeysI_fRVn-3Q@metrocastcablevision.com>T   Main, Kerry wrote:   ...M  J > Actually, I would suggest that, generally speaking, neither a techie nor: > a finance person should lead large companies these days. > H > Imho, it is a Services, Customer focussed person who should be leadingJ > and understands that Customers these days want integrated solutions with) > the comfort of long term support plans.   H I'm afraid that I don't agree with either of you, because I don't think H that the CEO's background is the first, second, or even third or fourth ) most important aspect of good management.m  G The first and second requirements for good management are intelligence yF and good judgment (Carly had the first, but not the second).  The nextI two requirements are the ability to listen well and learn quickly (Carly  F certainly lacked the first, and that lack kept her from realizing any ) strength she may have had in the second).   G There's another significant strength that Carly lacked, more difficult cI to prioritize exactly but beyond question important:  the ability to see oD your job as to provide a service rather than as some kind of divine H right.  This doesn't require abject humility (which may not be all that * desirable in a CEO), just self-discipline.  G It's always possible for a CEO with the above set of talents to manage d@ excellently, because she can always find people with the detail H backgrounds which she may lack who are eager to work for, and with, her G to fill in the gaps.  Conversely, the more of these talents she lacks, @H the more difficult it will be to get help she needs - if she recognizes  the need for help at all.e   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2005 18:44:26 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Fixing Carly's Mess, Message-ID: <37eu8aF5ebjm8U1@individual.net>  B In article <1108485493.580810.70940@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,> 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes: >  > Bill Gunshannon wrote:E >> In article <1108483800.417190.61560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, A >> 	"johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> writes:, >> > >> > Beach Runner wrote: >> >G >> >> > What technical guy is sitting at the head of Microsoft?  Surely0 > youC >> >> > don't mean Gates?x >> >>  >> >>:G >> >> See the movie Pirates of Silicon Valley.  As a young MIT student,g > heF >> >> wrote a quick OS for an early computer. He is both technical and >> > reallyr4 >> >> understands marketing and is a great futurist. >> >>O >> >F >> > Actually Bill Gates went to Havard.  What he wrote (or had a hand > inG >> > writing) was a version of BASIC for the MITS Altair 8800 computer.t > I2H >> > would say he's fairly technical and certainly quite intelligent andB >> > obviously great at marketing.  The rest I have no comment on. >> > >>A >> Funny, I was always led to believe that the technical work wastF >> actually done by his partner and Gates spent his time "networking". >> > G > That's why I said "had a hand in writing."  I was only in High Schoolt > at the time   ' Gee, thanks.  Now I really feel old!!!!   ? >              so what I know of this era came from reading the-I > periodicals of that time - Byte, Dr. Dobbs Journal (The Tiny Basic one,n@ > precursor to the current magazine), People's Computer Company,- > Kilobyte/Kilobaud, Creative Computing, etc.   D Actually, Tiny Basic started in PCC.  Dr. Dobb's Journal of ComputerD Calisthenics and Orthodontia came about to publish the next version.A I miss most of those magazines.  Currently, Dr. Dobbs is the onlyd one I still read..   > B >> It wasn't his technical prowess that got MS started, it was his >> mother's contacts at IBM. > I > IBM didn't enter the personal computer world until 1981(ish). MicrosoftsC > had been producing BASIC for several companies since 1977/78.  It D > certainly is possible that his mother's contacts got Microsoft theH > foothold that enabled it to license IBM the DOS O/S that Microsoft hadI > bought from Seattle Computer Products but Microsoft was a going concern  > long before that.r  F They would have been eaten alive by companies like Digital Research ifF it were not for the IBM deal that, like MS today, was not based on any4 concept of technical superiority or even competence.   bill     -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   m   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 08:02:16 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)@ Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?a3 Message-ID: <L5Nv5w4$568D@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  > In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:  G > I find it telling that you compare SUBMIT and at... consider why you aK > think "SUBMIT" makes more sense than "at" for runnng a task at some time rF > in the future and then go ask some one who doesn't know Unix or VMS , > which command they think makes more sense.  H    Which only goes to show that even UNIX can't get it wrong every time.  A    Except that SUBMIT does not require "some time in the future".a   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2005 14:07:50 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?-, Message-ID: <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>  ; In article <4210e9f3.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>, 5 	martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:n+ > Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:@; >> "Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:eH >>> And UNIX arguments are not even worth a comparison of intuitiveness' >>> compared to VMS qualifiers.d >> pG >> Again, matter of opinion.  It should be noted, however, that this isoF >> changing, even as we speak.  More and more Unix commands today haveG >> full word qualifiers as well as the typical single letter one's manyo( >> of us ar familiar with and like.  :-) >> a >> For example:o" > [cpio with long options snipped] > M > But then, you can't abbreviate those on *ix - an awful lot of typing, that.p >   B Boy, you just can't win.  First they were too short, now there are no abbreviations.e  A Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letteriA options, but the long one's are also available for those who wante the exercise for their fingers.    bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 09:18:26 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? 3 Message-ID: <1$BI$64QDcSX@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  W In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:-= > In article <4210e9f3.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,07 > 	martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes::  N >> But then, you can't abbreviate those on *ix - an awful lot of typing, that. >> l > D > Boy, you just can't win.  First they were too short, now there are > no abbreviations..  B Full spellings are for documentation and newcomers, making a clear> English indication of the purpose of the command or qualifier.  C > Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter>C > options, but the long one's are also available for those who wantS! > the exercise for their fingers.:  E Is there a uniform abbreviation scheme where the first couple letters D of the full command or qualifier will suffice ?  It is attractive to- learn one system and then abbreviate at will.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:20:14 GMTe! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>r Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?T8 Message-ID: <p3c411p77ur02hibubscussfcqfjg1e4oe@4ax.com>  M On 15 Feb 2005 09:18:26 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:m  X >In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:> >> In article <4210e9f3.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,8 >> 	martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes: >rO >>> But then, you can't abbreviate those on *ix - an awful lot of typing, that.f >>>  >> -E >> Boy, you just can't win.  First they were too short, now there arec >> no abbreviations. >eC >Full spellings are for documentation and newcomers, making a clear ? >English indication of the purpose of the command or qualifier.n >sD >> Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letterD >> options, but the long one's are also available for those who want" >> the exercise for their fingers. >xF >Is there a uniform abbreviation scheme where the first couple lettersE >of the full command or qualifier will suffice ?  It is attractive toc. >learn one system and then abbreviate at will.  M MUMPS aka DSM11 allowed almost all commands to be reduced to one letter which O meant there were actually only 25 commands plus the Zx commands e.g. ZA, ZD etc   It could become awfully cryptic.     -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azurl   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 12:28:47 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s Subject: Re: grep on openVMS?b3 Message-ID: <akv9B3+zWRHg@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > C > Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letteruC > options, but the long one's are also available for those who want ! > the exercise for their fingers.t  *    I think you're confusing gnu with UNIX.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 03:14:45 -0500-( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: HP should....= Message-ID: <-b2dnTl0GPvrMozfRVn-qg@metrocastcablevision.com>t   JF Mezei wrote:r > Bill Todd wrote: > J >>Not unless Intel stops aggressively developing Itanic, or unless someoneC >>comes up with some great new secret performance feature for Alphaa >  > 0 > Does Montecito offer a totally different core,   No..     or just packages twoF > cores on one chip with necessary support infrastructure around the 2	 > cores ?n   No.e  C While the general design of the Montecito core dates right back to aG McKinley, there have been some significant new technologies applied to nG it.  First, performance per Watt has been increased by something close nD to a factor of 3 over Madison by selectively shutting down inactive G parts of the chip on a nanosecond-by-nanosecond basis and other tweaks  I I'm less familiar with - the net effect being that a dual-core Montecito  A chip should draw a bit less power than a 1.5 GHz Madison 6M (and  > significantly less than a 1.6 GHz Madison 9M) while each core D significantly out-performs a Madison 9M.  Second, the chip responds E dynamically to workload and adjusts the clock rate to keep the power -E consumption near the maximum (unless, of course, the chip is idle) - iH e.g., a nominal 2 GHz Montecito should run very compute-intensive loads A at that rate but is expected to run at about 2.2 GHz with a less eI compute-intensive TPC-C workload.  Third, each core supports two threads  C (in a somewhat more primitive manner than fine-grained SMT, but it tB should provide a noticeable boost to throughput in multi-threaded = workloads).  There are other less significant tweaks as well.t  A In sum, Montecito should be the first Itanic that will be really  I respectable:  it should overtake POWER5 in smaller system configurations sE even on commercial workloads (though POWER5+ will be out by then and  G should maintain a lead, and I see no reason to expect Itanic's scaling =C problems to go away so POWER should retain a *significant* lead in eI larger systems), and will finally be competitive in terms of performance aE per Watt (quite possibly better than EV8 would have been in the same eH process, though well behind a 90 nm. EV8's performance core-for-core in F a commercial workload and, of course, without EV8's excellent scaling  characteristics).S   > E > Does it have any built-in hardware to spread the load betwene the 2o0 > cores, or is that left entirely to compilers ?  F It's a conventional MP with 2 threads per core.  Do you know of *any* K architecture which supports some kind of hardware-automated load-spreading?e   > I > Beyond Montecito, what does Intel have planned for IA64 in terms of newtF > cores ? Isn't it just speed bumps, more cache for the next couple of	 > years ?i  H Since the Alpha team's core got axed for Tukwila, my impression is that H there's no new Itanic core publicly planned:  Tukwila in 2007 will have E another spin on the current core, plus EV7-style on-chip support for sD memory and routing (which may partially or completely eliminate the I scaling problems which Itanic has had compared with POWER, EV7, and even e SPARC).t   > J > has Intel even announced intentions to have a single coherant and shared > cache between cores ?s  9 Not that I know of, but that's really not very important.v   > F > BTW, AMD announced fairly substantial price reductions on its 64 bitF > 8086 chips yesterday. That will put more pressure on Intel to becomeH > more efficient and cut unprofitable product lines, since its cash cow,A > the 8086 will have to lower its margins to compete against AMD./  E The situation with Itanic right now has some similarities to that of sH Alpha at the time of the Alphacide.  The next generation (Montecito) is G getting ready to ship and will offer significant improvements over the  H current one, and the generation after that (Tukwila) is well on the way J to completion and promises another very significant round of improvements.  I So Itanic has the next several years pretty well covered without needing -G all that much more development effort (and cash), just as was true for  I Alpha in 2001 and why killing EV8 was such a false 'economy'.  Intel has  H little reason to kill a product which is - finally - becoming something G which people might actually want to buy.  It may well *never* get back FI the cash (let alone the opportunity cost) which it has sunk into it, but tH that's irrelevant to continuing to produce and develop it now:  as long B as it can generate positive cash flow (which won't happen if it's G visibly being abandoned), it will make sense to continue it, and Intel rH can afford to take a wait-and-see attitude toward plowing new mountains C of cash into the kind of frenetic (one might almost say desperate) bJ triple-path development efforts which have characterized Itanic until now.  G In other words, by all appearances Itanic will overall apparently have eH been a lousy investment but the results aren't worthless - sort of like C purchasing a piece of land in the expectation that its value would wI triple and eventually finding that it will never be worth as much as you oH paid for it (and will in fact be even more of a loss after you consider I years' worth of taxes on it), but is still definitely worth *something*. dG   And the decision to kill Alpha was beyond question incredibly stupid eA for many reasons, but after all the pain at least its designated  > successor looks as if it may finally become reasonably usable.  G HP and Itanic may be joined at the hip.  If HP goes under (or at least EC ceases to be a player in the enterprise space), Intel may not have c@ enough of an Itanic market to break even.  Intel is pretty much G dependent upon others to make or break Itanic in the marketplace - and uE by this point may be sufficiently disgusted that it doesn't care all aD that much which happens but will just try to be prepared for either I eventuality.  Then again, it's not all that clear that HP cares too much @A what happens in that space either:  I certainly don't see enough o+ long-term investing there to be convincing.=  G Pretty ironic given how intensely committed both companies seemed just aJ months ago:  finally getting over the hump, and no energy left to move on.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:06:50 +08000 From: prep@prep.synonet.comn Subject: Re: HP should....- Message-ID: <87sm3xitol.fsf@prep.synonet.com>0  * Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  B > HP and Itanic may be joined at the hip.  If HP goes under (or atE > least ceases to be a player in the enterprise space), Intel may not0F > have enough of an Itanic market to break even.  Intel is pretty muchD > dependent upon others to make or break Itanic in the marketplace -F > and by this point may be sufficiently disgusted that it doesn't careB > all that much which happens but will just try to be prepared forB > either eventuality.  Then again, it's not all that clear that HPE > cares too much what happens in that space either: I certainly don't:8 > see enough long-term investing there to be convincing.  > If hp drops non-printer stuff, the could they hand the top end= stuff over to intel? They already have half the compilers, so A add VMS, T64's corpse, hpux and the storage stuff. Now that would- make bill's day :)   -- -< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 06:02:33 -05002) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>l% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired:8 Message-ID: <kFkQd.4727$dZ.241342@news20.bellglobal.com>  1 <tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message 5= news:1108178297.687053.130200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...IG > so many good people lost their jobs b/c of her incompetence. she willeF > walk away with millions.  we need a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship of) > the proletariat to remedy these abuses.e >   J I know next to nothing about the economic theory known as Marxism (and at L times I think it may have more to do with the Marx Brothers). But what I do K know is that many people in such as system get confused as to which social rH class they really belong; i.e. many members of the proletariat (working I class) believe they are part of the bourgeoisie (ruling class). For some hL reason I don't fully understand, computer people especially software people  fall into this confused area.   M Now to your point: let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. History  L has shown the world that dictatorships don't work and that free markets do. L What we really need in the west is a small amount of "controlled socialism" K in the form of salary caps. In Japan and most parts of Europe, a CEO can't  M make anymore than 20-25 times more than the lowest hourly employee. In North  K America this ratio is more like 500 times and is rising. If a CEO had this iK restriction, then he/she would be looking out for the employee rather than n trying to screw him.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,u Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html n   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 07:56:18 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m% Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina firedf3 Message-ID: <+PZ+RrLR8Ndp@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  i In article <1108253876.353923.148650@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, tariq.1.rahim@spamgourmet.com writes: H > increasingly dignity and freedom are a myth unless you are a CEO. haveI > you not noticed the growing gap between the worker and the manager?  iflF > you do not own the means of production you are dirt in this country.F > and it is getting worse.  capitalism is reaching its final crisis inA > which it can no longer resolve its own internal contradictions..  C    Before you continue his troll, please do tell us what planet youo    studied history on.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 05:35:58 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.come' Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universities1C Message-ID: <1108474558.122033.158500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>i  @ OpenVMS should be dominating!  It has the worlds best clusteringA and security and tco ... that is no dream, and there is no excuse:. besides mismanagement why it isn't dominating!   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2005 14:21:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universitiesf, Message-ID: <37eerhF5c71e8U3@individual.net>  R In article <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F3CE@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>,* 	"Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes: >  >> -----Original Message----- . >> From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]=20" >> Sent: February 14, 2005 9:14 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com* >> Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universities >>=20h >  > [snip ...] >  >> >I >> > Yeah, reminds me of the hype around Windows about 6-7 years ago whenrG >> > the great analysts of the time were predicting that something liketG >> > 70-80% of all servers would be running Windows by the year 2003/4.f >>=20  >>=20s; >> Ah, Kerry?  .... they are ...in case you hadn't noticed.n >>=20o > C > Yeah, if you are talking file-print/web/ bit of SQL server stuff.r > J > Not in my world which is mid-high end critical stuff .. Sure Windows hasG > a bit of a presence there, but also lots of UNIX, mainframe, VMS, NSK'C > etc. Surely you are not saying that Windows is 80% of ALL missiono > critical stuff?   C "Mission critical" is all a matter of perception.  I can assure youhB that the web server at that 500 employee company in Podunk is justH as "Mission critical" as the system in the back room at Chase Manhatten.E There are some really large operations that are being done on Windowsu+ wether people here want to admit it or not.h     > G > To put things in perspective, about 4 years ago, I went to CA World -dI > 17,000 people attended. About 3/4 of the sessions I had no idea of whatl, > they were about (80% mainframe sessions).   F CA World?  What did you expect?  That's like going to USENIX (well, atF least 10 years ago when I was still attending) and being amazed at all the Unix geeks. D Of course, 17.000 people probably isn't even 1 percent of the admins doing Windows.  G >                                           Ok, so 4 years ago is a bitoG > dated, but it really opened my eyes to an entire world out there thattI > most people have no insight into i.e. how big that "other world" really  > is.   E Based on the apparent focus from their website, if you went again nows/ it is likely to be more Linux than mainframes. o   > J > Heck, at one of my consolidation engagements last year, the Cust had 600I > Wintel servers and their target was in the 250 range. The Wintel marketeG > is the number one consolidation target by almost all med-large Cust'sm > right now.  C And that doesn't mean moving away from Windows, just consolidation.F   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:20:07 -05000' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> ' Subject: RE: IBM Linux and Universities=R Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F3DD@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----$ > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu=20A > [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannono! > Sent: February 15, 2005 9:22 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh) > Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universitiesm >=20  	 [snip...]    > >=20> > > Not in my world which is mid-high end critical stuff ..=20 > Sure Windows has8 > > a bit of a presence there, but also lots of UNIX,=20 > mainframe, VMS, NSK E > > etc. Surely you are not saying that Windows is 80% of ALL mission  > > critical stuff?y >=20E > "Mission critical" is all a matter of perception.  I can assure youeD > that the web server at that 500 employee company in Podunk is justB > as "Mission critical" as the system in the back room at Chase=20 > Manhatten.G > There are some really large operations that are being done on Windowst- > wether people here want to admit it or not.p >=20  H My point was that the server world is not currently 80% Windows based asG the "analysts" of the time were predicting when Windows hype was at itsiC peak. Some companies can live with the associated monthly patching,pG risks etc and that is fine. That is certainly their decision and as you @ say, there are lots of the type of companies you described using Windows.=20u    A > > To put things in perspective, about 4 years ago, I went to=20j > CA World -A > > 17,000 people attended. About 3/4 of the sessions I had no=20. > idea of what0 > > they were about (80% mainframe sessions).=20 >=20H > CA World?  What did you expect?  That's like going to USENIX (well, atH > least 10 years ago when I was still attending) and being amazed at all > the Unix geeks.eF > Of course, 17.000 people probably isn't even 1 percent of the admins > doing Windows. >=20  H Yeah but I also attended big Windows events in the past like Tech Ed etcG and the largest I ever heard of was about 7,000 attendees. My point wasr? that contrary to what many analysts were saying and downplaying D "mainframes", the reality is that they are very much a huge player -E both then and now. Mission critical computing trends change extremelyoH slowly and do not typically get caught up in the OS platform of the day.    H Sure, they will test the waters, get comfortable with new stuff etc. But5 it takes years for them to make any major changes.=20o      ? > >                                           Ok, so 4 years=20r > ago is a bitA > > dated, but it really opened my eyes to an entire world out=20l > there that@ > > most people have no insight into i.e. how big that "other=20 > world" really> > > is.n >=20G > Based on the apparent focus from their website, if you went again nowo3 > it is likely to be more Linux than mainframes.=20  >=20  C So did all those 17,000 Customers who attended that CA event changekD platforms to Linux? Come on, regardless of what the web site says orG does not say, you can bet that CA is not forgetting which Customers pay 
 the bills ...E   > >=20B > > Heck, at one of my consolidation engagements last year, the=20 > Cust had 600@ > > Wintel servers and their target was in the 250 range. The=20 > Wintel marketh; > > is the number one consolidation target by almost all=20t > med-large Cust's > > right now. >=20E > And that doesn't mean moving away from Windows, just consolidation.  >=20 > bill  F My point was not that they are moving away, rather that the numbers ofD Windows Servers is being greatly reduced in most med-large companiesD today. Many, many small servers at 10-15% busy are being replaced byG much fewer larger servers. They want to reduce the per cpu licenses and C associated support costs big time. That has got to be a concern for 
 Microsoft.=20   E It is also a trend which I do not see a lot of analysts talking about 5 when they discuss numbers of servers in the industry.x   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultants HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660t Fax: 613-591-4477M kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:56:31 -0500s# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s' Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universities , Message-ID: <Ic6dnYkTMbcyho_fRVn-sg@igs.net>   Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----->+ >> From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com] " >> Sent: February 14, 2005 9:14 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com* >> Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universities >> >- > [snip ...] >h >>>aH >>> Yeah, reminds me of the hype around Windows about 6-7 years ago whenF >>> the great analysts of the time were predicting that something likeF >>> 70-80% of all servers would be running Windows by the year 2003/4. >> >>; >> Ah, Kerry?  .... they are ...in case you hadn't noticed.  >> >iC > Yeah, if you are talking file-print/web/ bit of SQL server stuff.  >fF > Not in my world which is mid-high end critical stuff .. Sure WindowsG > has a bit of a presence there, but also lots of UNIX, mainframe, VMS,dG > NSK etc. Surely you are not saying that Windows is 80% of ALL missionh > critical stuff?c >uG > To put things in perspective, about 4 years ago, I went to CA World - D > 17,000 people attended. About 3/4 of the sessions I had no idea ofF > what they were about (80% mainframe sessions). Ok, so 4 years ago isB > a bit dated, but it really opened my eyes to an entire world outF > there that most people have no insight into i.e. how big that "other > world" really is.8    H How about telling us the last time 17,000 VMS users were gathered in one convention.d  F If you held that same convention today, how many VMS users would be in attendance?g    F > Heck, at one of my consolidation engagements last year, the Cust hadF > 600 Wintel servers and their target was in the 250 range. The WintelG > market is the number one consolidation target by almost all med-largel > Cust's right now.r  G How about persuading them to install a couple of Alpha's instead of 250a Windows servers?    H > Yes, Windows will have a place. Yes, Linux will have a place. However,B > any analyst that thinks a single platform is going to completely> > dominate in the next few years is dreaming in techno-colour.    L You are correct - no single platform will dominate, but VMS won't even be inG the list of "former has-beens" by then at the rate HP promotes its use.n   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:14:39 -0500n# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: IBM's 'Chiphopper'l, Message-ID: <xKidnUUDBZYyeozfRVn-2g@igs.net>  L http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=3&u=/zd/200 50214/tc_zd/145844     --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:20:26 GMTh" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG: Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions0 Message-ID: <00A3F6AE.E7245B54@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <a+VnO3Z1crEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:hW >In article <nv9Qd.30$yf6.8@news.cpqcorp.net>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:a >u: >> Any other compiler-related topic you might want to see? >n? >An in-depth look at ELF, DWARF and the VMS extensions thereto. = >(I think that is either 3 or 4 sessions, and it is certainly + >possible I am the only one interested :-).   ) I'll assure you you won't be alone Larry.  -- a< http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.i --  , Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! b -- lK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMw   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2005 23:11:37 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUPC Message-ID: <1108451497.883120.184430@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>a   JF Mezei wrote:a? > I've always put my mount commands early in systartup_vms.com,s followed  > by the pagefile installations. >eF > This way, I am assured that startup_p1 = "MIN" really means it sinceB > none of my stuff gets executed and thus I can't mess things in a minimum startup. >nE > I much prefer to keep all site specific invocations in one file.  Ir@ > prefer a one-to-may approach as opposed to many-to-may when it    7 Have you considered one-to-jun?   Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha!h   Many to may? Huh?c     comes toF > command procedures that call others during startup (in terms of site > specific stuff). >tF > I tend to restrict use of sylogicals.com only to logicals absolutelyG > needed by processes such as opcom started prior to systartup_vms.com,u1 > and others are just redefined in systartup.com.l >dB > The fewer files that are modified for system customisations, the better.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:47:45 GMTc5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)e* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUPL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1502050547480001@user-105n82h.dialup.mindspring.com>  E In article <05021412155024@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>, brandon@dalsemi.comy (John Brandon) wrote:i   >VMS V7.2-1h1 Alpha    ...   P >I started thinking why not mount all the disk drives in one command file ratherN >than the multiple locations as is now.  I was thinking that either one of the+ >following would be ideal for this purpose:e >m >  SYS$MANAGER:SYCONFIG.COMi >  SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.COM  ...l  I I have a MOUNT command file that's general enough to handle all the diskseI in the cluster, and I call it from SYLOGICALS.COM.  That's the earliest IyF need any disks, so that's where I mount all of them.  (There are a fewE that are mounted earlier, like satellite node page files, so my MOUNTfB procedure is smart enough to skip disks that are already mounted.)  H I find it easier to mount all disks in one place, rather than scattering% them throughout the startup sequence.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:12:39 -0500e From: norm.raphael@metso.com* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUPQ Message-ID: <OF6AA70411.6E497926-ON85256FA9.004C2F7F-85256FA9.004E5CDC@metso.com>c  C rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) wrote on 02/15/2005w 05:47:45 AM:  G > In article <05021412155024@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>, brandon@dalsemi.comh > (John Brandon) wrote:  >  > >VMS V7.2-1h1 Alphab >o > ...l >hF > >I started thinking why not mount all the disk drives in one command
 > file rather-I > >than the multiple locations as is now.  I was thinking that either onel of the- > >following would be ideal for this purpose:- > >3 > >  SYS$MANAGER:SYCONFIG.COM  > >  SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.COM0 > ...g >0K > I have a MOUNT command file that's general enough to handle all the disks>K > in the cluster, and I call it from SYLOGICALS.COM.  That's the earliest I0H > need any disks, so that's where I mount all of them.  (There are a fewG > that are mounted earlier, like satellite node page files, so my MOUNT D > procedure is smart enough to skip disks that are already mounted.)  H What's wrong with mounting disks that are already mounted.  You just get MOUNT-I-MOUNTED and if the caseT MOUNT-I-ISAMBR and things proceed.    >rJ > I find it easier to mount all disks in one place, rather than scattering' > them throughout the startup sequence.>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:29:15 -0500 * From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP4 Message-ID: <GGnQd.2995$df.109594@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  3 <norm.raphael@metso.com> a crit dans le message denK news:OF6AA70411.6E497926-ON85256FA9.004C2F7F-85256FA9.004E5CDC@metso.com...e >v >h >tJ > What's wrong with mounting disks that are already mounted.  You just get! > MOUNT-I-MOUNTED and if the cases > MOUNT-I-ISAMBR > and things proceed.a >n    E If you like to get a bunch of messages in your startup (or any other)!J procedure, rather than having a clean job, I guess you can live with that.K It's so easy to use lexical functions to do the work the proper way. That'sc what we call programming.n  
 My 2 cents   --   Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 8.1.7.4H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---a > > L > > I find it easier to mount all disks in one place, rather than scattering) > > them throughout the startup sequence.. >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:29:00 +0000 (UTC)'P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP$ Message-ID: <cutbgs$rvn$1@online.de>  E In article <05021416535725@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com>, brandon@dalsemi.come (John Brandon) writes:    Q > I use a similiar concept - I called mine DISKS$MOUNT_STARTUP.COM.  However I dou  " The $ is reserved to Digital.  :-|  Q > not hard-code my devices.  The procedure reads a text file (DISKS_DATABASE.DAT)RJ > that contains pertinent information for each device (device name, label,P > logical, and shadowset.)  The procedure will perorm checks on the device priorC > to mount and reports back any problems prior and after the mount.v  H Since the physical names of the disks have to be SOMEWHERE, I don't see F any harm (and an advantage---just all in one file) of putting them in  the procedure itself.   M > So we have similiar concepts in startup routines.  Just different names and@? > variants on hard-coding (I hate it when I have to hard-code).   B I do, too, but you have to have the physical disk names SOMEwhere.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:33:19 +0000 (UTC)lP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)* Subject: RE: Mounting disks during STARTUP$ Message-ID: <cutbov$rvn$2@online.de>  
 In articleG <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F3C3@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>,.* "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> writes:   G > Only comment I would make wrt to the disk mounting is that if you use"F > the "/norebuild" mount qualifier to speed up start-up times, then atA > some point in the start-up sequence, you might want to consideruD > submitting a batch job to run later in the day to do a "set volumeH > /rebuild" on each volume to reset the disk quota/cache info etc. SinceI > the drives do not need to be taken offline, this can be done during the@ > off /quiet hours.   + I do this as well, except for system disks..   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:33:58 -0800 From: "Jim" <main@ulticom.com>% Subject: NFS mounts to Solaris ServertC Message-ID: <1108492438.292365.298340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>n   Hi,   @ We have a DEC Alpha box as a client to our source base hosted on Solaris.  B For the most part this works as long as you do not edit across the mount.   Our problems are this,  F 1. When compiling with Compaq-c via GNV, the compilier will not followF the include paths specified. If I do a DIR or ls we can see them. If IG put the full unix pathname in the file being compiled, CC will find it.o  G 2. Our NFS mounts are not persistant across logins, the system user has / to stay logged in for others to use the mounts.r  A I have searched all over the net and am in the process of readingi? several thousand pages of documentation to understand what I am  supposed to do.c  C We are primarly a unix/linux shop and this is our first project foro openvms.   Thanks for your help.n   Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:02:16 -0600 " From: "Schroeder, AJ" <aj1@qg.com>, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution( Message-ID: <421200e9$1@news.qgraph.com>  - "John Santos" <john@egh.com> wrote in messagea$ news:rucQd.26452$wc.5294@trnddc07... > Schroeder, AJ wrote:/ > > <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote in message4@ > > news:1108409898.537479.94860@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > >i > >>Jeff Goodwin wrote:  > >>6 > >>>My OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution arrived today. > >>>nH > >>>You'll all be happy to know that the box has a Java Compatible logo > >>
 > >>on it. > >> > >>>:)s > >>>u
 > >>>-Jeff > >>C > >>Great!  Now I wonder how long before they show up on Ebay so us $ > >>hobbyist types can get a copy... > >> > >u > > J > > Yes, where do us hobbyist types get copies of the newest VMS releases? >n0 > I'm getting mine by borrowing it from work :-) > H > It's perfectly all right to beg or borrow a copy.  Stealing is frowned upon.f >tH > Conventional wisdom is that putting a copy of it up on the Internet so+ > people can download it is also right out.v >eH > I don't know if there has been an actual post from someone at HP or ifH > it is "obvious" (in the legalese sense of "obvious") from the hobbyistG > license agreement that this is illegal, but I wouldn't chance it.  IfeF > it were okay, I think HP would put it up on their own web site if itI > were okay, so people downloading it would have some assurance they werehD > getting the real thing and not a hacked trojan horse version or an > obsolete beta. >rF > In the past, we have recieved two copies of most Alpha VMS kits, oneI > with our support contract and one as DSPP members.  Often when we renewBF > the DSPP membership (annually) we get yet another copy of the latestF > O/S kit.  I bet this is where many of the Ebay kits come from.  MostG > sites really only need one copy.  (I do like to keep two, though.  ItqH > really stinks to discover you've got a scratched CD at 2AM on a Sunday' > morning in the middle of an upgrade.)s >e >s > -- a
 > John Santosh > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539  I I tried that avenue, unfortunatley my employer is moving away from VMS soc) our subscription is in an unknown status.t  H So, do they hobbyist licenses work with the latest releases? Or does theH license from DECUS only work with the version of VMS that comes with theL hobbyist CD kits? Reason I ask is that I might be able to get 7.3-2 and some= layered products from my employer, just not the leading edge.   : As you can tell, I am new to VMS and the hobbyist program.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:27:21 +0000r- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>b, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution, Message-ID: <37efamF59sj30U1@individual.net>   Schroeder, AJ wrote: > [...snip...] > K > I tried that avenue, unfortunatley my employer is moving away from VMS sol+ > our subscription is in an unknown status.o >aJ > So, do they hobbyist licenses work with the latest releases? Or does theJ > license from DECUS only work with the version of VMS that comes with theN > hobbyist CD kits? Reason I ask is that I might be able to get 7.3-2 and some? > layered products from my employer, just not the leading edge.c > < > As you can tell, I am new to VMS and the hobbyist program.  2 The hobbyist licences are independent of releases.  F Since you're new to VMS and the Hobbyist Program, you're forgiven from# the following, ahem, "observation":e  H Please, in things like this, please specify where you are geographicallyD located.  There are many of us who are more than willing to loan outA CD kits (or even burn a new set if you supply us with blank CDs).d  B See JF's earlier posting re Canada.  I'm willing to do the same in> the UK (and have done so many times already).  Good example of; specifying where I am geographically:  I'm located near theiG town of Saffron Walden in Essex, ca. 16 Km directly south of Cambridge.c  D Plus, I'm expecting to get my hands on a VMS 8.2 Alpha kit real soon now.  	 Roy Omondh Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:50:48 +0000 (UTC)n7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) , Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution/ Message-ID: <cut288$dif$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   M In article <421200e9$1@news.qgraph.com>, "Schroeder, AJ" <aj1@qg.com> writes:e ! . !"John Santos" <john@egh.com> wrote in message% !news:rucQd.26452$wc.5294@trnddc07...t !snip!G !> In the past, we have recieved two copies of most Alpha VMS kits, oneeJ !> with our support contract and one as DSPP members.  Often when we renewG !> the DSPP membership (annually) we get yet another copy of the latesttG !> O/S kit.  I bet this is where many of the Ebay kits come from.  MostkH !> sites really only need one copy.  (I do like to keep two, though.  ItI !> really stinks to discover you've got a scratched CD at 2AM on a Sundayo( !> morning in the middle of an upgrade.) !> !> !> --  !> John Santos !> Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.e !> 781-861-0670 ext 539d !iJ !I tried that avenue, unfortunatley my employer is moving away from VMS so* !our subscription is in an unknown status. !lI !So, do they hobbyist licenses work with the latest releases? Or does theoI !license from DECUS only work with the version of VMS that comes with theaM !hobbyist CD kits? Reason I ask is that I might be able to get 7.3-2 and some > !layered products from my employer, just not the leading edge. !n  G The licenses will work with any VMS release AFAIK (I don't know of manydK hobbyists running VMS 6.2 and earlier, but I imagine they exist). I've seen 1 hobbyist sites running on V7.2, V7.2-1, and V7.3.   M V7.3-2 should work fine.  I currently use V7.3-1, but I have a copy of V7.3-2oL ready to go when I feel up to it.  I'll probably move to V7.3-2 when updatesO and fixes for V7.3-1 stop.  I hope I'll have access to V8.2 in the near future,c= but I think I can ask folks to lend me a copy, if I need one.r  ; !As you can tell, I am new to VMS and the hobbyist program.b !l   Great - I hope you enjoy it!   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 09:23:32 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution3 Message-ID: <bCb$ODAbAppR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <cut288$dif$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:e  I > The licenses will work with any VMS release AFAIK (I don't know of many C > hobbyists running VMS 6.2 and earlier, but I imagine they exist).   7 The licenses probably do not work on VMS V5.0 and V5.1.   - They certainly do not work prior to VMS V5.0.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:21:48 -0600t" From: "Schroeder, AJ" <aj1@qg.com>, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution( Message-ID: <4212219c$1@news.qgraph.com>  : "Roy Omond" <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote in message& news:37efamF59sj30U1@individual.net... > Schroeder, AJ wrote: > > [...snip...] > >dJ > > I tried that avenue, unfortunatley my employer is moving away from VMS so- > > our subscription is in an unknown status.e > > L > > So, do they hobbyist licenses work with the latest releases? Or does theL > > license from DECUS only work with the version of VMS that comes with theK > > hobbyist CD kits? Reason I ask is that I might be able to get 7.3-2 ande someA > > layered products from my employer, just not the leading edge.  > >e> > > As you can tell, I am new to VMS and the hobbyist program. >a4 > The hobbyist licences are independent of releases. >oH > Since you're new to VMS and the Hobbyist Program, you're forgiven from% > the following, ahem, "observation":  >hJ > Please, in things like this, please specify where you are geographicallyF > located.  There are many of us who are more than willing to loan outC > CD kits (or even burn a new set if you supply us with blank CDs).  >eD > See JF's earlier posting re Canada.  I'm willing to do the same in@ > the UK (and have done so many times already).  Good example of= > specifying where I am geographically:  I'm located near thevI > town of Saffron Walden in Essex, ca. 16 Km directly south of Cambridge.e > F > Plus, I'm expecting to get my hands on a VMS 8.2 Alpha kit real soon > now. >i > Roy Omondb > Blue Bubble Ltd.  L Thanks, in the future when begging for install media I'll let everyone know.L Speaking of which, if anyone in the US is in the southeastern Wisconsin areaG (just outside of Milwaukee, specifically) I would be more than happy tooL provide blank CDs and 6-pack of someones favorite beverage for a copy of VMS
 8.2 Alpha.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 08:45:03 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com>p, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distributionC Message-ID: <1108485903.870121.296960@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>c   Schroeder, AJ wrote:  ? > Thanks, in the future when begging for install media I'll let  everyone know.? > Speaking of which, if anyone in the US is in the southeastern  Wisconsin areaF > (just outside of Milwaukee, specifically) I would be more than happy toG > provide blank CDs and 6-pack of someones favorite beverage for a copyi of VMS > 8.2 Alpha.  E I'll pipe in with a "Me too!" for anyone in the Cincinnati, Ohio area    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 00:54:49 -0800 From: univms@bigfoot.com. Subject: Re: OT- Like IBM stock when it was $1C Message-ID: <1108457689.147316.129410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>r   Go Geron! (NASDAQ symbol GERN)   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:05:09 -0800 From: bill@wcschmidt.com$ Subject: Queue Length on shadow diskC Message-ID: <1108490709.532903.110510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   > I have a strange problem with a queue length on a shadow drive   DSA1:                  WORKe  " Current    Ave      Min        Max' 27218.00   27171.73 18145.33   27218.00t  E using monitor disk/item=queue_length, I see this queue length and cani not believe it.   $ Any ideas as to where the issue is ?  G When do I a show device/files nothing is open other than the index.sys.h  D With ana/sys sho dev dsa1: nothing unusual here with no i/o requests pending.  D I'm using VMS 7.2 with all the latest patchs, I even checked to make5 sure that the latest for shadowing has been installede   any ideas ?t   Thanks Bill Schmidt   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 10:24:36 -0800 From: bill@wcschmidt.com( Subject: Re: Queue Length on shadow diskC Message-ID: <1108491876.736814.152430@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>   G I would think this was a missing patch, but I have 10 DSA on a 2 member C cluster and all the other drives are reporting normally and this is  only happening on 1 system   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:38:24 -0500a From: norm.raphael@metso.com+ Subject: Strange (to me) ACP lookup failure0Q Message-ID: <OF1A65C5F5.FDE91E97-ON85256FA9.004A40CB-85256FA9.004B39E7@metso.com>   3 This was a typo - the dot before "LOG" s/b a slash,02 but the error indicates some sort of ODS5 filename0 search pattern, that does not occur, say, on the2 following DIRECTORY command, and I do not have any
 ODS5 volumes.j   $ PURGE/KEEP=5 DOCV7.*S*.LOGI %PURGE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for USERDISK1:[USER1]DOCV7^.*S*.LOG; / -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed - -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version numberh $ DIRECTORY DOCV7.*S*.LOGa! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundt   $ SHOW SYSTEM/NOPROCESS) OpenVMS V7.3-1  on node [snip]  A Is this expected, documented?  What other commands do this with a > double-dotted file spec?  Is the wildcard part of the trigger?   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 08:13:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)u/ Subject: Re: Strange (to me) ACP lookup failure 3 Message-ID: <MUiqQK4gfsOq@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  p In article <OF1A65C5F5.FDE91E97-ON85256FA9.004A40CB-85256FA9.004B39E7@metso.com>, norm.raphael@metso.com writes: >  >  >  > 5 > This was a typo - the dot before "LOG" s/b a slash,o4 > but the error indicates some sort of ODS5 filename2 > search pattern, that does not occur, say, on the4 > following DIRECTORY command, and I do not have any > ODS5 volumes.m >  > $ PURGE/KEEP=5 DOCV7.*S*.LOGK > %PURGE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for USERDISK1:[USER1]DOCV7^.*S*.LOG;k1 > -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failedc/ > -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version numberd > $ DIRECTORY DOCV7.*S*.LOG/# > %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files found_ >  > $ SHOW SYSTEM/NOPROCESS-  > OpenVMS V7.3-1  on node [snip] > C > Is this expected, documented?  What other commands do this with ae  A It seems to me the two programs have different standards for what8: constitutes an error.  I suppose you could send in an SPR.   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Feb 2005 22:48:07 -0800  From: "ID10T" <XulluX@gmail.com>- Subject: TURN $6.00 INTO $60,000 really worksaC Message-ID: <1108450087.593106.107180@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>g   TURN $6.00 INTO $60,000t( I cannot believe this ACTUALLY worked!!!< TURN $6.00 INTO $60,000!!! IT'S SIMPLE AND IT'S LEGAL!!!!!!!1 Six Dollars! That's it! I had to at least try it!l? I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it A littlesF while back, I was browsing through news groups just like you are rightC now and came across a article similar to this saying that you couldmF make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment ofF $6.00!! So I thought yeah right. This must be a scam, but like most ofF us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway it said that you send oneD dollar to each of the six names and addresses stated in the article.E You then place your own name and address on the bottom of the list at  number? six and post the article to at least 200 newsgroups. (there arec
 thousands)F No catch that was it. So after talking to a few people and thinking itA over I decided to give it a try. What have I got to lose except 6s stampsC and $6.00 right? Then I invested the measly six dollars. WELL GUESSn WHAT!!!eD Within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail!!! I was shocked.= I thought it was going to stop but it just kept coming. In my F first week I made $25.00. By the end of the second week I had $900.00.C In the end of the third week I made $5,000.00!!! It's still growingr righttD now. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just overE $38,000.00! and it's still coming in rapidly. This is certainly worth @ $6.00 and 6 stamps. I have spent more than that on the lottery!!F Let me tell you how this works and most importantly why it works. AlsoF make surebthat you print a copy of this article NOW so you can get theF information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow theNB directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you possiblyF thought just by doing something so easy!! SUGGESTION: READ THIS ENTIREB MESSAGE CAREFULLY (Print it out or down load it) Follow the simpleG directions and watch the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And your   D investment is only $6.00 (plus postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; itD is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk - it reallyC works!!!!! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, youo willA receive extraordinary dividends. PLEASE NOTE: please follow these E directions exactly and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days.aD This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrityF of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to> the instructions. You will now become a part of the mail order	 business.n? In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a4 service.@ You are in the business of developing a mailing list. Many largeB corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality list. However,F the money made from the mailing list is secondary to the income, whichG is made from people like you and me asking to be included to that list.m  D Here are the four steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paperhA write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOURn MAILINGi LIST."? Now get 6 us 1dollar bills and place ONE inside EACH of the sixlD pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to preventuB thievery. Next place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them.yC MAKE SURE THERE ARE ENOUGH STAMPS ON YOUR ENVELOPES. You should now  haveG 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrasey  = your name and address and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is-B creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a
 legitimateB service and you are paying for it! Like most of us, I was a littleF skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So IB checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and theyD confirmed that it is indeed legal!!!!! Mail the six envelopes to the following addresses: #1) Curtis Sprauve 1803 Acorn Rd. Greensboro, NC 27406 #2) Tim Heisdorffera  218B Bartlett UNI Cedar Falls, IA 50613= #3) Igor Giergielo 118 E 7TH St. Ap.5E  New York, NY 10009 #4) Anthony Keathley CPO BOX 71-1672a 7777 S Lewis Ave Tulsa, OK 74171N #5) Matt DeBordm  39829 Irving Ct  Murrieta, Ca 92563o #6) Carl  Hicksd 805 SW 7th Ave Delray FL. 33444B STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, moveG the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR namea   asD number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to but try to keepF this article as original as possible. Now post your amended article to atF least 200 news groups. ( I think there are 24,000 groups) All you needD is 200, but remember, the more you post , the more money you make!**A EVERYBODY AROUND THE WORLD CAN DO THIS BUT REMEMBER TO PUT ENOUGHe STAMPS@ ON YOUR ENVELOPES!!!!** This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, E refer to title 18 sec. 1302 & 1341 of the postal lottery laws. Keep a F copy of these steps for your self and whenever you need money, you canA use it again and again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remainsI
 successful? because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and byi	 carefullyo> adhering to the directions. Look at it this way, if you are of
 integrity,@ the program will continue and the money that so many others have receivedG will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address   C sent to you, either on a computer or a hard copy and keep the notesr people? sent you. This verifies that you are truly providing a service.gG (Remember to wrap the $1 bill in the note to prevent mail theft.) So asd  > each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed,@ six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a list	 developeraF with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically soG that when your name reaches the #1 spot you will be receiving thousandsg   ofF dollars in CASH!!!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00($1 for each of theoG six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and   < you're in business!---DIRECTIONS---- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWS GROUPS-----a4 STEP 1: You do not need to retype this entire letterB to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning ofD this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and selectD "copy" from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into theC computer's memory. STEP 2: open a blank notepad file and place your G cursor at the top of the blank page. From the edit menu select "paste."l  G This will paste the copy of the letter into notepad so you can add yourt  D name to the list. STEP 3: Save your new notepad file as a .txt file.E If you want to do your postings in different settings , you'll alwayss? have this file to go back to. STEP 4: Use Netscape and InterneteB Explorer and try searching for various news groups (on-line forums messagelG boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step5: Visit these message boards and0   postE this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter  andlG selecting "paste" from the edit menu. Fill in the subject, this will bef  @ the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postingsA in a particular group, click the post message button. You're donehF with the first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jumpE to different news groups and post away, after you get the hang of it,. it= will take 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MOREk
 NEWSGROUPSG YOU POST IN (MESSAGE BOARDS ETC) THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOUr  B HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200. That's it! You will begin receiving money3D from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent aF P.O. Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish toC stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use as long as the postmanr willB deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE THE ADDRESS IS CORRECT** Let me breakE it down, say I receive only 5 replies, so then I made $5 with my name  atD #6 on the letter. Now each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1 madeC the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 people  respondtB to the original 5 people. That is another $25 for me. Now those 25 people= make the MINIMUM 200 post with my name at number 4 and only 5 F replies each, I will make $125. Now, those 125 people post the MINIMUM 2000D postings with my name at #3 and only get 5 replies each, I will makeA an additional $626! Ok, now here's the fun part each of those 625> peopleF post a MINIMUM 200 with my name at #2 ant they only get 5 replies thatD just made me $3,125!!! Those 3125 people send a MINIMUM 200 postings anda? they only get 5 replies each with my name at #1, I will receiveS
 $15,625!!!E With an original investment of $6!!!! AMAZING!!!! . When your name istD no longer on the list, you just take the latest postings in the news groupsG and send out another $6 to names on the list putting yourself at #6 ando  F start posting again. Thousands of people are joining the internet eachD day and they are reading articles like these just like you are right now.D So this can never get played out just keep it going and you can make tonsD of money too!!!! Please try it now and make big bucks in a few short weeks!!!!!!e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:56:23 -0500y  From: "Eve" <ezeve2@comcast.net>> Subject: [FREE!] Swingers Websites!                    Ljw*(r#0 Message-ID: <ao2dnYMTS4-xSIzfRVn-jA@comcast.com>             .2" ----------------------------------  0 Want to get laid tonight??  Find local girls now  1 http://www.youandmeswing.com/index.php?ref_id=130t    " ----------------------------------            	 aY]O%;h%kv   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.092 ************************