0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 16 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 94      Contents:= Announcing the latest issue of the OpenVMS Technical Journal. ) Re: Data replication / disaster tolerance ) Re: Data replication / disaster tolerance P Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting  timeouP Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting  timeouP Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting timeouts onP Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting timeoutP Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting timeout DS700 BOOTP  Re: DS700 BOOTP B Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perlF Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS? Re: grep on openVMS?# Re: Guy Peleg: More wish list items # Re: Guy Peleg: More wish list items ( Re: I'd heard about this a while back... Re: IBM Linux and Universities Re: IBM's 'Chiphopper' Re: IBM's 'Chiphopper' Re: IBM's 'Chiphopper'! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP ! Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP   Re: NFS mounts to Solaris Server# Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution # Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution 0 Oracle LGWR process does continuous direct I/O's4 RE: Oracle LGWR process does continuous direct I/O's) Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed? ) Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed? ) Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed? ) Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed? ) Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed?  Re: Queue Length on shadow disk + read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ? / Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?  Re: rx5670 for $2K Re: rx5670 for $2K Re: rx5670 for $2KD Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)D Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)D Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)D Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)P Re: Superfluous Responses  WAS Re: DCL command to show number of interactive use? Re: Superfluous Responses WAS Re: DCL command to show number of  TCPIP automatic route additions 4 Thoughts about VMS ECOs now in .PCSI$COMPRESSED form8 Re: Thoughts about VMS ECOs now in .PCSI$COMPRESSED form Re: VMS Group purchase process?  Re: VMS Group purchase process? $ Re: Where do you get your News feed?& [ANN] Data Plotting Library DISLIN 8.3F Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flawF Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flawE [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !) I Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !) N Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !) !)!)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:41:15 -0800! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com F Subject: Announcing the latest issue of the OpenVMS Technical Journal.B Message-ID: <1108579275.515780.49340@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   Dear Distribution lists,  G It is my pleasure to announce the latest issue of the OpenVMS Technical C Journal. First, I would like to apologize for the delay; however we B were otherwise occupied in getting OpenVMS Version 8.2 out. Please visit the Web site at:6 "http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/index.html"  G Once again, we have a number of excellent articles. To highlight just a G few, let me start by pointing out "A Survey of Cluster Technologies" by C Ken Moreau. You will find this an in-depth and very well researched F article. "Porting the Macro-32 Compiler to OpenVMS I64" by John ReaganC gives you a firsthand look at what changed and what stayed the same E from an engineer on the compiler team. "Are you Certifiable?" What an D interesting question and name for an article! Certification is a big: thing in the IT industry these days, and OpenVMS does haveG certification available. This article was written by John Gillings, who D was part of the team that developed some of the certification tests.< "Delivering Web Access to OpenVMS" by Tom Bice describes how? Southeastern Freight Lines migrated its All-in-1 application to ? Verastream and added a graphical user interface. This migration E preserved all their valuable data, enabled them to keep their OpenVMS @ systems on which they rely for zero down-time, enhanced customerE service, and reduced IT costs. There are four more excellent articles  in this issue as well.  E As always, I would like to thank all the Authors. As you can see from D the bio page, we have an impressive group of Engineers, Ambassadors,; and Partners. Key to the publication of this journal is the D documentation team that works with the Authors. For this issue, theyD were Carolyn Crowell, Suzy Kane, Mary Marotta, Sarah Masella, JosephA McMullen, Phil Milgrom, Pat Nelson, and Merle Roesler. Of course, @ without the core team of Warren Sander, the web master, and MaryE Marotta, this project would not be possible at all. I owe them a huge + dept of gratitude. Thank you all very much.   = I hope you enjoy this issue of the OpenVMS Technical Journal.   
 Warm Regards, 
 Sue Skonetski  Editor   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:29:42 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 2 Subject: Re: Data replication / disaster tolerance/ Message-ID: <WxKQd.141$9i7.19@news.cpqcorp.net>    JF Mezei wrote: 7 > Or you can have one node with 2 votes and one with 1.  > J >  50% of chances that failure will result in uninterrupted service. (i.e.J > if the earthquake ont strikes the side with the 1 vote node.  And if theI > 2 vote node goes down, you can just reboot the other node into SYSBOOT> 3 > change its votes to 3 and then continue the boot.   D The problem with this approach is that it arbitrarily predetermines A which of the two sites will continue on any failure that affects  I inter-site connectivity, even if that failure might adversely affect the  C site with more votes. If the "wrong" site continues automatically,  C transactions it subsequently processes can end up being lost, in a  G scenario known by the name of "Creeping Doom". See my presentations on  H disaster tolerance at http://www2.openvms.org/kparris/ for more details.  G For this reason, I recommend that balanced votes be used in 2-site VMS   DT clusters.  F > I think that on VAXes, you can type <CTRL-P> at the console to get aF > chance at readjusting quorum on a node that is currently hung due to5 > loss of quorum.  Does this work on Alphas as well ?   F It is possible to do this on Alpha systems (it's documented in the HP C OpenVMS System Manager's Manual, Volume 1: Essentials --> Managing  = Storage Media --> Using Interrupt Priority Level C (IPC), at  G http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/aa-pv5mh-tk/aa-pv5mh-tk.HTMl --  H the command is >>> D SIRR C to deposit a value of 12 (decimal), for IPL D 12, into the Software Interrupt Register, and then IPC> Q to adjust C quorum), but due to some timeouts, it never worked reliably in SMP  D systems, so coming in through RMDRIVER (using Availability Manager, I DECamds, or DTCS) to initiate the quorum adjustment is the approach most   favored today.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:12:38 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 2 Subject: Re: Data replication / disaster tolerance, Message-ID: <KNidnZViv8uJEI7fRVn-gw@igs.net>   Paul Sture wrote:  > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: >  >>H >> You need a link for the SAN, and a link for the cluster coms. PullingG >> 20 fibres costs almost no more that one. Having redundant likes that D >> go via *TOTALLY* different routes is a VERY good idea. Also going  >> for a 3 way config is easier. >> > E > And bundling spare cables into the installation provides for future  > expansion at little cost.  > G > You should also plan cable routes to avoid hazardous areas (e.g. fire H > risks asscociated with kitchens, fuel lines etc). Fork lift trucks canE > also be dangerous; at one place I worked a fork lift had apparently B > crashed into a wall and taken a load of cabling out as a result.    G That's why you have a minimum of two of everything routed via different  routes: L -two fiber runs down one side of the plant in conduit, one run above ground, another below ground= - an identical matching pair down the other side of the plant   L One diesel generator to power one computer room, the other room powered by aG natural gas generator - as a backup against fuel contamination. And big I thick firewalls (for real fires) around the computer rooms seeing as they E are inside a plant that probably doesn't have much in the way of fire  suppression.  H The quorum system could be in your basement at home, or in a closet in aK sales office in a building on another part of the site, or just rent a rack G slot from an ISP in a telcom NAP (they have fire suppression and backup & power) for a couple hundred per month.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:35:24 -0000 # From: "Robin" <robin@yeahright.com> Y Subject: Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting  timeou % Message-ID: <cuv7vq$3v3$1@rdel.co.uk>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message< news:1108548484.abe589f52df60f12576ddf1d2334787d@teranews... > Robin wrote:I > > timeouts within VMS. Both the system command 'sys$setimr()' and the X K > > toolkit command 'XtAppAddTimeOut()' call static functions on completion J > > rendering my object code useless. (There will be multiple instances of the 0 > > object but only one of the timeout routine!) > 5 > http://www.xfree86.org/4.3.0/XtAppAddTimeout.3.html  > D > XtAppAddTimeout allows you to provide user data as argument to theD > routine that gets called at the time the timer expires. You pass a0 > pointer to your object structure as parameter. >    Thanks.    Robin  ------.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:08:18 -0000 # From: "Robin" <robin@yeahright.com> Y Subject: Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting  timeou % Message-ID: <cuvrg3$oqp$1@rdel.co.uk>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message< news:1108548484.abe589f52df60f12576ddf1d2334787d@teranews... > Robin wrote:I > > timeouts within VMS. Both the system command 'sys$setimr()' and the X K > > toolkit command 'XtAppAddTimeOut()' call static functions on completion J > > rendering my object code useless. (There will be multiple instances of the 0 > > object but only one of the timeout routine!) > 5 > http://www.xfree86.org/4.3.0/XtAppAddTimeout.3.html  > D > XtAppAddTimeout allows you to provide user data as argument to theD > routine that gets called at the time the timer expires. You pass a0 > pointer to your object structure as parameter. >  >   H Hi, I ended up passing 'this' in as the data argument, and accessing all that I needed through that. : Many thanks, I could have been casting around for a while.   Robin  ------   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:43:57 -0000 # From: "Robin" <robin@yeahright.com> Y Subject: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting timeouts on $ Message-ID: <cuv4vb$fn$1@rdel.co.uk>   Hi all,   F     I hope someone can help. I need a way of setting object compatibleE timeouts within VMS. Both the system command 'sys$setimr()' and the X G toolkit command 'XtAppAddTimeOut()' call static functions on completion J rendering my object code useless. (There will be multiple instances of the, object but only one of the timeout routine!)  D If anyone knows any other way of achieving this I would be grateful.   Many thanks    Robin  ------   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:42:26 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting timeout 3 Message-ID: <9kg$pgK$caLa@eisner.encompasserve.org>   J In article <cuv4vb$fn$1@rdel.co.uk>, "Robin" <robin@yeahright.com> writes:	 > Hi all,  > H >     I hope someone can help. I need a way of setting object compatibleG > timeouts within VMS. Both the system command 'sys$setimr()' and the X I > toolkit command 'XtAppAddTimeOut()' call static functions on completion L > rendering my object code useless. (There will be multiple instances of the. > object but only one of the timeout routine!) > F > If anyone knows any other way of achieving this I would be grateful.  G    The general way of telling things apart in the AST called by $SETIMR E    is by the request id, which is basically an argument passed to the D    AST that you can use as you wish.  You need to map the request idG    to the specific object instance.  For example, in Java you could use D    Object.hash() (inheritted by all objects) as a unique request id.D    There should be something similar in C++, perhaps &object.  ThereF    should then be a hook to allow your static routine to access objectF    instance specific data and functions, but you may have to make sure-    you write them in an AST reentrant manner.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:20:38 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> Y Subject: Re: Does anyone know of an object compatible (non static) way of setting timeout B Message-ID: <1108548484.abe589f52df60f12576ddf1d2334787d@teranews>   Robin wrote:G > timeouts within VMS. Both the system command 'sys$setimr()' and the X I > toolkit command 'XtAppAddTimeOut()' call static functions on completion L > rendering my object code useless. (There will be multiple instances of the. > object but only one of the timeout routine!)  3 http://www.xfree86.org/4.3.0/XtAppAddTimeout.3.html   B XtAppAddTimeout allows you to provide user data as argument to theB routine that gets called at the time the timer expires. You pass a. pointer to your object structure as parameter.     $help system $setimr  H For sys$setimr, you can specify an address in the "reqid" parameter, andH this is passed as a parameter to the AST routine that is called when theG timer expires. So again,  provide the address of your object block, and H then the AST routine gets this as parameter and can then play with it as
 it wishes.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 22:52:17 -0800. From: dieter.rossbach@gmx.de (dieter rossbach) Subject: DS700 BOOTP< Message-ID: <e1d40caf.0502152252.b1db462@posting.google.com>  @ I have to change the download for some decserver 700 from mop to8 DHCP/BOOTP due to changes of the network infrastructure.( The VMS system runs with tcpip 5.4 ECO 4    ' DHCPCAP.; contains the following entry:      ds700:\          ::\          :ht=Ethernet:\         :ha=08-00-2B-XX-XX-XX:\ $         :bf=/mom$system/wweng2.sys:\         :dn=my.domain.com:\          :ip=10.0.1.123:\         :sm=255.255.255.0:\          :ds=10.0.1.4:\         :sa=10.0.1.2:\         :ho=ds7001:      -----------      TCPIP$DHCP_RUN.LOG says   D BOOTP packet from HW 08:00:2b:xx:xx:xx configured with IP 10.0.1.123B 1108461925.556038 Packet arrived   on Tuesday February 15 11:05:25  % but no download of the image happens.   3 The image is at the right place and world readable:    $ dir mom$system:   " Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[MOM$SYSTEM]  > MNENG1.SYS;1                                 1152   2-SEP-1992 10:36:30.44 > WWENG1.SYS;1                                 1156  12-FEB-2005 16:34:42.64 > WWENG2.SYS;1                                 2023  12-FEB-2005 16:34:43.95 > WWENG2T.SYS;1                                3215  12-FEB-2005 16:34:45.95       I tried   :bf=mom$system:wweng2.sys & :bf=sys$sysroot:[mom$system]wweng2.sys  E with the same results. The TCPIP documentation on the bf parameter is  short and simple:    bf=mybootfile:   So, where is the problem? 
 Any ideas?   Regards    Dieter   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:30:28 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: DS700 BOOTPB Message-ID: <1108538290.4ad89d7f45d404855fbdc8d48e44b9e9@teranews>   dieter rossbach wrote:F > BOOTP packet from HW 08:00:2b:xx:xx:xx configured with IP 10.0.1.123D > 1108461925.556038 Packet arrived   on Tuesday February 15 11:05:25 > ' > but no download of the image happens.   B BOOTP/DHCP are just config information providers. The device wouldH normally then use the BOOTP reply information to generate a TFTP request for the actual software.    G I believe that the "sa" tag refers to the Boot File Server address, and G hence, your device will send a TFTP request to that host, specifying th  eboot file specification.   % Do you have TFTP enabled/configured ?    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 23:57:36 -0800 From: mcbill20@yahoo.comK Subject: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl C Message-ID: <1108540656.265868.281130@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   F A while back I had asked about other people's experience with creatingG graphs for Apache (CSWS) pages and was pointed to Python for VMS. There D were a lot of prerequisites (OpenSSL, libz, etc.) but I successfullyF got them installed. The original Python never worked but I finally gotF it working by recompiling the whole thing (there were apparent bugs in- the com file but I finally got around those).   C Anyway, I also installed the latest PERL from the HP website, along G with the ECO 3 update and mod_perl for CSWS. As usual with anything the F OpenVMS engineers work on, the installs went smoothly and I am able toF use PERL alone or in CSWS-served web pages. However, I am still tryingC to do some of the graphing and now would prefer to do it in PERL. I F found a few sites with GDCHART and other GD routines from a DECUS site; and others but I am having trouble getting them to install.   < The documentation mentioned PNG and ZLIB as prerequisites. IG successfully built and installed ZLIB. However, during the PNG compile, B it chokes on references to "#include <X11/Xlib.h>" and a few otherF apparently outdated routines. I tried pointing some to the equivalents/ in decw$include but so far I am having no luck.   C Can anyone point me to a site where I can get the correct (current) 0 versions of the GD stuff to link with HP's PERL?   Thanks.  Bill McLaughlin    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:15:53 +0100 1 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= O Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl , Message-ID: <37gdptF5d9mhsU1@individual.net>  H > A while back I had asked about other people's experience with creatingI > graphs for Apache (CSWS) pages and was pointed to Python for VMS. There F > were a lot of prerequisites (OpenSSL, libz, etc.) but I successfullyH > got them installed. The original Python never worked but I finally gotH > it working by recompiling the whole thing (there were apparent bugs in/ > the com file but I finally got around those).  >   F I know that the Python kits have been succesfully installed dozens of 9 times, and I have installed these kits many times myself. I So I you have found any problem, instead of just reporting your failure,  G it would be better to report what problem you have encounter, this may   help other guys.C Also I you have found and fix bugs, why did you don't send the fix. 8 I you prefer just send any information by private email.    E > Anyway, I also installed the latest PERL from the HP website, along I > with the ECO 3 update and mod_perl for CSWS. As usual with anything the H > OpenVMS engineers work on, the installs went smoothly and I am able toH > use PERL alone or in CSWS-served web pages. However, I am still tryingE > to do some of the graphing and now would prefer to do it in PERL. I H > found a few sites with GDCHART and other GD routines from a DECUS site= > and others but I am having trouble getting them to install.  > > > The documentation mentioned PNG and ZLIB as prerequisites. II > successfully built and installed ZLIB. However, during the PNG compile, D > it chokes on references to "#include <X11/Xlib.h>" and a few otherH > apparently outdated routines. I tried pointing some to the equivalents1 > in decw$include but so far I am having no luck.  > E > Can anyone point me to a site where I can get the correct (current) 2 > versions of the GD stuff to link with HP's PERL? > 
 > Thanks.  > Bill McLaughlin  >      Regards,  
 Jean-Franois    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:32:22 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> O Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl B Message-ID: <1108541996.cece622d80e459f7852b790fcffe7306@teranews>   mcbill20@yahoo.com wrote: D > it chokes on references to "#include <X11/Xlib.h>" and a few otherH > apparently outdated routines. I tried pointing some to the equivalents1 > in decw$include but so far I am having no luck.   @ Xlib.h is still present, at least on VAX and also on Alpha 7.3-2  " Which routines does it choke on ?   G Remember that the VMS version of Xwindows is very old and lacks some of N the modern/current routines. There are some ways around some of those however.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 01:18:04 -0800 From: mcbill20@yahoo.comO Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl C Message-ID: <1108545484.166349.243070@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   G Thank you for the quick reply. Before I go any further, I want to thank F you for all your effort on this. I really appreciate those who work toD port these applications to VMS. It's nice to have them available and not have to always go to Linux.   F Unfortunately, I didn't save the logs from the installs. I believe the@ main problems I had were related to rooted logicals and possible$ logicals defined with "/trans=conc".  E I ended up building python in sys$common:[python]. Once I was able to ? successfully build, I find that I still have to manually define C python_root to be dsa0:[sys0.python.] rather than using sys$common.   5 I'll try another install and save the log this time.     Thanks.  Bill   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 01:21:15 -0800 From: mcbill20@yahoo.comO Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl B Message-ID: <1108545675.348181.55830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>  % I ended up having to define X11 to be @ dsa0:[sys0.syscommon.decw$include], and also manually define the? decw$include logical, as it was referenced in xlib.h I believe.   G I am still working on what might be wrong with the build. After getting @ past the initial problems, here is what I am getting at present:  
 $ @makevms Compiling PNG book programs ... 0 cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) readpng1 cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) readpng2 1 cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) writepng  Building rpng-x.../ cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) rpng-x + LINK rpng-x,readpng,lib.opt/opt,x11.opt/opt E %LINK-F-OPENIN, error opening DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.PNG]LIBPNG.OLB; as  input  -RMS-E-FNF, file not found   Thanks.  Bill   ------------------------------   Date: 16 FEB 2005 15:16:04 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> O Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl 2 Message-ID: <16FEB05.15160421@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  0 In a previous article, mcbill20@yahoo.com wrote:I > Thank you for the quick reply. Before I go any further, I want to thank H > you for all your effort on this. I really appreciate those who work toF > port these applications to VMS. It's nice to have them available and! > not have to always go to Linux.  >   H > Unfortunately, I didn't save the logs from the installs. I believe theB > main problems I had were related to rooted logicals and possible& > logicals defined with "/trans=conc". >   G > I ended up building python in sys$common:[python]. Once I was able to A > successfully build, I find that I still have to manually define E > python_root to be dsa0:[sys0.python.] rather than using sys$common.   J If you built python in sys$common:[python] then I would expect python_rootK to be dsa0:[sys0.syscommon.python.] or dsa0:[vms$common.python.].  Defining L python_root to be dsa0:[sys0.python.] would require python to be in the node+ specific area rather than the commmon area.   H Unless things have changed recently, you can't create one rooted logicalE (python_root) out of another (sys$common).  That's a VMS restriction.    Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:57:17 +0100 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>O Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl B Message-ID: <42137b6e$0$24926$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>   mcbill20@yahoo.com wrote: ' > I ended up having to define X11 to be B > dsa0:[sys0.syscommon.decw$include], and also manually define theA > decw$include logical, as it was referenced in xlib.h I believe.  > I > I am still working on what might be wrong with the build. After getting B > past the initial problems, here is what I am getting at present: >  > $ @makevms! > Compiling PNG book programs ... 2 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) readpng3 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) readpng2 3 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) writepng  > Building rpng-x...1 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) rpng-x - > LINK rpng-x,readpng,lib.opt/opt,x11.opt/opt G > %LINK-F-OPENIN, error opening DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.PNG]LIBPNG.OLB; as  > input  > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > 	 > Thanks.  > Bill > = In addition to the official OpenVMS Open Source Tools site... 9      http://h71000.www7.hp.com/opensource/opensource.html $ and Jean-Franois Pironne's site...!      http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org 1      http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org/anonymous/kits/ ( and Mark Daniels's WASD Download site...!      http://wasd.vsm.com.au/wasd/ @ Open Source Libraries and Tools for OpenVMS can be found here...?      http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/software2.html#PNGlib 
 or here...@      http://www.quadratrix.be/products/open_source_material.html
 or here...&      http://decwarch.free.fr/libs.html
 or here...0 ftp://erebus.physics.uiowa.edu/~dyson/webalizer/
 or here...& http://www.yrl.co.uk/phil/pds/pds.html  6 There is also an OpenVMS open source porting BBS at..." http://www.4ovms.dyndns.org/phpbb/   Cheers!    K.C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:49:14 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)O Subject: Re: Graphics routines (GDCHART, etc.) with OpenVMS PERL, CSWS mod_perl ; Message-ID: <4213879a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>    mcbill20@yahoo.com wrote: K > I ended up having to define X11 to be dsa0:[sys0.syscommon.decw$include],   # That's what I was about to suggest.    > and also manually define theA > decw$include logical, as it was referenced in xlib.h I believe.   > IIRC, that logical should be defined upon DECwindows startup?!   I > I am still working on what might be wrong with the build. After getting B > past the initial problems, here is what I am getting at present: >  > $ @makevms! > Compiling PNG book programs ... 2 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) readpng3 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) readpng2 3 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) writepng  > Building rpng-x...1 > cc /prefix=all/include=([---.zlib],[--]) rpng-x - > LINK rpng-x,readpng,lib.opt/opt,x11.opt/opt G > %LINK-F-OPENIN, error opening DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.PNG]LIBPNG.OLB; as  > input  > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found  G Seems there is a reference to SYS$COMMON:[PNG]LIBPNG.OLB in lib.opt (or A x11.opt, which I doubt). Point it to the location where you built , LIBPNG.OLB, and the link should get further.   cu,    Martin --  A So long, and thanks        | Martin Vorlaender  |  OpenVMS rules! 4 for all the books...       | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deG In Memoriam Douglas Adams  |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ ;             1952-2001      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:44:14 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? 3 Message-ID: <AN9CxiYUITk9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ? In article <vBtQd.7120$3h3.384@fe03.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:  > H > Examples of well-named VMS commands, such as "PRINT," does not refute H > the claim that plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and layered product  > command are not intuitive.  D   Exceptions prove the rule.  Didn't we all learn that in elementary	   school?   F    The point being that most VMS commands are intuitve to the English >    speaker and most UNIX commands are not intuitive to anyone.  C    After you've learned them they may seem simple enough, but after D    intensive use of UNIX for over a decade I still don't recall when    to -r and when to -R.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:41:26 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? 3 Message-ID: <lM0wPhdPjFeA@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <37f0k0F4or9b5U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 5 > In article <akv9B3+zWRHg@eisner.encompasserve.org>, @ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Z >> In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> E >>> Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter E >>> options, but the long one's are also available for those who want # >>> the exercise for their fingers.  >>  - >>    I think you're confusing gnu with UNIX.  > B > Call it whatever you want.  The utilities, as they are currentlyB > being written by numerous developers around the world, offer theB > features I mentioned above.  If HPUX or AIX prefer to only offerA > the old single letter options that does not prevent a sys admin @ > from offering the more useful versions.  All the current Linux > and BSD versions have them.   E    Purists will tell us that Linux is a Posix compliant OS, not UNIX. H    gnu of course, is not UNIX by definition.  And anything gnu can do itC    has probably already been ported to VMS.  So citing gnu specific 0    features as "UNIX" is fundamentlly incorrect.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:15:54 -0800  From: Z <Z@no.spam>  Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? + Message-ID: <NaMQd.10120$kW7.2925@fe03.lga>    Bob Koehler wrote:A > In article <vBtQd.7120$3h3.384@fe03.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:  > H >>Examples of well-named VMS commands, such as "PRINT," does not refute H >>the claim that plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and layered product  >>command are not intuitive. >  > F >   Exceptions prove the rule.  Didn't we all learn that in elementary >   school?  > H >    The point being that most VMS commands are intuitve to the English @ >    speaker and most UNIX commands are not intuitive to anyone.    I'm not arguing that point, Bob.  I It doesn't matter to me if the name is grep or SEARCH or FIND ... once I  I I know it, I know it ... what matters to me is that grep (and egrep), by uG simple virtue of regular expression syntax, are much more capable than l SEARCH.   C Regular expressions are so useful (IMO, YMMV) for searching that I s5 frequently end up in Perl just to get access to them.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:14:12 -0500c' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> , Subject: Re: Guy Peleg: More wish list items0 Message-ID: <111636c5dpdtk45@corp.supernews.com>   David J Dachtera wrote: $ > If these aren't already in V8.2... >  > New keywords for F$GETSYI()n > 	 > IJOBCNTb	 > BJOBCNTt	 > NJOBCNTs > + > (counterparts to their ...LIM companions)r >   ? If you get into HELP, after the list of item codes, you'll see:r  I           You can also specify any of the system parameters listed in thes?           OpenVMS System Management Utilities Reference Manual.r  C So, it's been there at least since V7.2.  I'm not sure what system rF parameters are listed in the manual.  Perhaps it means all the SYSGEN  parameters.e   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 04:51:11 -0800& From: "Galen" <gspamtackett@yahoo.com>, Subject: Re: Guy Peleg: More wish list itemsC Message-ID: <1108558271.883542.181200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>n   David J Dachtera wrote: $ > If these aren't already in V8.2... >  > New keywords for F$GETSYI()  >e	 > IJOBCNT 	 > BJOBCNTa	 > NJOBCNT. > + > (counterparts to their ...LIM companions)i >p  B This reply is only a tangent since Dave is specifically asking forA ...CNT keywords for F$GETSYI and said nothing at all about SYSGENn parameters.   A But since he alluded to "...LIM" values I just thought I'd post adF reminder that as of V8.2 the SYSGEN parameters BJOBLIM and NJOBLIM are@ documented as obsolete. (Of course, the corresponding F$GETSYI()? keywords would still be valid.) I think they've actually _been_  obsolete for a good while.  0 I believe this has come up once before in c.o.v.  A For the official documentation of this, follow this TinyURL link:e   http://tinyurl.com/6rc3d    The full version of the link is:  B http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82eft/6674/6674pro_005.html#obsolete   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:17:39 +0000 (UTC)n6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)1 Subject: Re: I'd heard about this a while back...>0 Message-ID: <newscache$f5o0ci$fao$1@news.sil.at>  ^ In article <1108419559.420578.20180@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes:@ >"We now need something that's not proprietary. Banks don't likeF >proprietary things," Davies told eWEEK during an interview at the Web: >Services on Wall Street Show & Conference here last week.  G No company likes 'proprietary things'. But for banks, VMS wasn't reallye9 proprietary. It was 'standard' for most things banks use.:  O Now over ten years of time, it seems, VMS really lost that position everywhere.e  2 >no wonder we are in trouble ... just wait until a >major security breach hits ...   L Then it will be seen as a cause of the 'internet' (there were no connectionsK from outside into a bank say 20 years ago) and not of a wrong opsys choice.f   -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialistt E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:58:20 +0000 (UTC)p From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: Re: IBM Linux and Universitiesr) Message-ID: <cuvqis$nnk$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>e  r In article <1108503784.3ec8d5cf1fb2262e817a14c3cc8afe03@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >"Main, Kerry" wrote:dK >> My point was that the server world is not currently 80% Windows based aslJ >> the "analysts" of the time were predicting when Windows hype was at its >> peak. > G >Your definition of "server" is probably different. Oh, and let us know-A >when Winkler has changed his mind about Windows eviscerating the 2 >underbelly of Unix and other proprietary servers. >  > D >Consider the days prior to Window 3.1 when ALL-IN-1 was the largestH >email system in he world (the most "seats"). VMS had a large portion ofF >the corporate email servers. Now, it has none because Palmer murderedN >ALL-In-1 and Curly gave it its final coup de grce (not even ported to IA64). >rB >So, now, if you don't consider Exchange boxes to be servers, then? >perhaps you are right that Windows may not have 80% of market.m >   L Exchange is fairly widely used within Companies however so are lots of Unix  and other systems.I Exchange is not used that widely as the front-door mail system for large  
 Companies.  K For home users who run their own mailserver the overwhelming majority wouldV& probably be running Sendmail on Linux.      
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:05:48 GMTs1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com>g Subject: Re: IBM's 'Chiphopper'd. Message-ID: <M3LQd.144$0k7.2@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Smith wrote: ` > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=3&u=/zd/20050214/tc_zd/145844  I Based on the name, I at first thought this might be like FX!32, or VEST, nG but was disappointed to find out it's just a set of tools to help port d  Linux x86 applications to Power.  @ IBM obviously realizes how difficult it is for a non-mainstream E microprocessor to gain traction in the Linux world. The ironic thing  F about this is that IBM actually sells far more Linux on Itanium (by a H factor of almost 20 to 1) than it does Linux on Power, according to IDC  data, 3CQ04.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:58:49 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e Subject: Re: IBM's 'Chiphopper'h( Message-ID: <opsmausb06zgicya@hyrrokkin>  0 On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:05:48 GMT, Keith Parris  % <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:a   > John Smith wrote:la >> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=3&u=/zd/20050214/tc_zd/145844e >aL > Based on the name, I at first thought this might be like FX!32, or VEST,  J > but was disappointed to find out it's just a set of tools to help port  " > Linux x86 applications to Power. >nC > IBM obviously realizes how difficult it is for a non-mainstream  -H > microprocessor to gain traction in the Linux world. The ironic thing  I > about this is that IBM actually sells far more Linux on Itanium (by a  rK > factor of almost 20 to 1) than it does Linux on Power, according to IDC    > data, 3CQ04.  1 How does that compare with Linux on x86 from IBM?      -- hC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/h   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:09:11 +0000 (UTC)d( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: IBM's 'Chiphopper't5 Message-ID: <cuvunn$qq1$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>i  b In article <M3LQd.144$0k7.2@news.cpqcorp.net>, Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> writes: > B > IBM obviously realizes how difficult it is for a non-mainstream G > microprocessor to gain traction in the Linux world. The ironic thing uH > about this is that IBM actually sells far more Linux on Itanium (by a J > factor of almost 20 to 1) than it does Linux on Power, according to IDC  > data, 3CQ04.  2 This might have to do with the fact that they have6 better OSes than Linux to offer for their Power boxes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:53:51 +0100y& From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@decus.ch>* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP, Message-ID: <37gjhfF5brtknU1@individual.net>   Alphaman wrote:r   > Paul Sture wrote:  >  >> Carl Karcher wrote: >>G >> I did something similar in the mid 80s with a fleet of exchangeable ,H >> disks. I mounted each disk with /OVERRIDE=IDENTIFICATION, and if the E >> label was valid (held in a DCL string of elements), then mount it v >> /SYSTEM.m >  > K > Careful with that Mount/Over=id.  If you're in a cluster and the disk is P? > already mounted on a remote node, this will fail.  It's also a' > *reeeeeaallllllly sloooooooooow*....., >   D Noted, and I'd better state clearly that this was not a VMS cluster  (V3.3 or less).y  J > Search this newsgroup's archive and you'll find a program (Macro, IIRC) K > called GETVOLNAM.  This will very, very quickly read the header from the eG > disk (even if mounted on a remote node) and return the volume label, :J > allowing you to get the disk mounted in a fraction of the time it would 5 > take to get the volume label alone using Mou/Ov=id.  >    Interesting.  J > If you use f$dev to scan for disks, be sure to add logic to exclude CDs I > (esp. DQ devices that may not even exist -- trying to mount them isn't  K > pretty and you won't like doing it!!) and floppies.  Oh, and TU58's show n > up as disks, IIRC. >   " Yes, and exclude DNFS volumes too.  D > There are some really good reasons for mounting at least a shared I > cluster disk in SyLogicals -- shared Qman files, TCP/IP proxy and host  K > files, RightsList and SysUAF.dat files, etc.  SyLogicals is the place to aG > have the disks mounted if you're defining the logicals that point to o > them therein.  >   E And this is recommended in SYLOGICALS. (the .TEMPLATE file has this, oE even if your site specific .COM is inherited from older versions and s	 doesn't):p  K $! Include MOUNT/SYSTEM command(s) for the disk(s) on which the above filestC $! reside on.   Please see SYS$EXAMPLES:CLU_MOUNT_DISK.COM for the t recommendedo6 $! method of performing these MOUNT/SYSTEM operations. $a> > There's also a way to find out if a volume needs rebuilding H > (unfortunately, I don't recall how -- it might be an arg to f$getdvi, H > but it's not readily apparent to me at this time); that, coupled with I > determining whether a disk is local or remote (don't bother rebuilding  J > remote drives) can be put into a batch job or even a Run/Delay detached J > process during SyStartup_VMS that runs several minutes after the system J > has booted.  (That way, you're not using up a job in a batch queue that H > probably has enough other startup tasks that have to be done, nor are J > you dependent upon other jobs in case you've got an exhausted job limit  > on a queue.) > C > I wrote just such a DCL program a year or two ago for one of our DG > commercial products.  I'd post it if it were possible, but the above  = > summarizes some of the major items I found that could help.8 > C I believe others have posted similar DCL snippets here in the past.c  G Here's one of mine, taken from a disk usage report, which contains the a basic processing loop:   http://tinyurl.com/6ohb3   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:21:12 +0000 (UTC)oP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)* Subject: Re: Mounting disks during STARTUP$ Message-ID: <cuvve8$lj6$1@online.de>  6 In article <15FEB05.14431644@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>,7 karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes: a  j > In a previous article, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: >  > -> ...F > ->I do, too, but you have to have the physical disk names SOMEwhere. >  > Not really. You could use: >  > $ DISK = F$DEVICE("*","DISK")g > I > in a loop to find all the disk devices on the system. In that same loopaH > you could try to mount devices that match certain criteria (e.g. not aI > template device, is directory structured and sharable), purposely using H > wrong label, then parse the error message from mount to obtain correctJ > label and try again. You could even save the correct label in an indexedE > file to use next time. Been mounting disks this way since the 80's.   F As I mention, I have shadow sets.  So I have to have a list of labels H somewhere, so I might as well have a list of disks.  Or should I try to H mount all possible combinations of 2 or 3 disks and see which are valid 9 shadow sets by taking action depending on the error code?g   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:49:57 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: NFS mounts to Solaris Server-3 Message-ID: <X5JLqii6Jq0N@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  d In article <1108492438.292365.298340@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Jim" <main@ulticom.com> writes: > H > 1. When compiling with Compaq-c via GNV, the compilier will not followH > the include paths specified. If I do a DIR or ls we can see them. If II > put the full unix pathname in the file being compiled, CC will find it.   D    I don't know what GNV does for this, but in general using includeH    paths inside the #include statement is a common problem cause.  ThereE    are still compilers on non-UNIX platofrms that will choke on them.   H    Putting the include paths on the compiler options allows you to write    more portable code.  I > 2. Our NFS mounts are not persistant across logins, the system user hass1 > to stay logged in for others to use the mounts.D  K    VMS mounts are not permanent and multi-user unless they include /system e    or /cluster.K   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:03:37 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-iYdPzQwuOZOm@dave2_os2.home.ours>h  1 On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:41:37 UTC, "Jeff Goodwin"  ! <jgoodwin@maine.rrr-r.com> wrote:a  3 > My OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution arrived today.e > L > You'll all be happy to know that the box has a Java Compatible logo on it. > :) >  > -Jeff   7 Ok, I'll bite, what makes a logo Java compatible? :-))     -- e Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:33:17 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>s, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distributionB Message-ID: <1108538455.f4762073a9bf3704f1baa258bca6cb0c@teranews>   Dave Weatherall wrote:N > > You'll all be happy to know that the box has a Java Compatible logo on it. > > :) > >e	 > > -Jeffs > 8 > Ok, I'll bite, what makes a logo Java compatible? :-))  ' It means it has been sanctioned by Sun.o  E What was it during the Compaq era that had been shipped with either a N Sun logo or a picture of Sun equipment on the box ? (it was VMS stuff inside).   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 04:56:54 -0800& From: "Galen" <gspamtackett@yahoo.com>, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distributionC Message-ID: <1108558614.230525.267290@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>5  F If the logo were made of silicon with a Java processor etched into it,) would that make the logo Java compatible?    :-D    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:09:03 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution) Message-ID: <cuvglf$ksv$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>)  N In article <opsl9a2qmfzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:K >On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:22:17 -0800, DeanW <dean.woodward@gmail.com> wrote:  >eA >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:02:50 +0000 (UTC), Bradford J. Hamilton I >Isn't the basic difference that passwds are transmitted unencrypted withaD >telnet?  Aside from this, it would seem that breakins have the sameE >probability of success, independent of whether you use telnet or sshv >   I A SSH brute force password guesser brutessh2 was published in August 2004a2 which a lot of script kiddies seem to be using see  7 http://www.k-otik.com/exploits/08202004.brutessh2.c.php-        
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University   >  >-- D >Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:21:15 -0800n# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>h, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution( Message-ID: <opsmakppfhzgicya@hyrrokkin>  K On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:09:03 +0000 (UTC), <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote::  J > In article <opsl9a2qmfzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  	 > writes:1H >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:22:17 -0800, DeanW <dean.woodward@gmail.com>  	 >> wrote:  >>B >>> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:02:50 +0000 (UTC), Bradford J. HamiltonK >> Isn't the basic difference that passwds are transmitted unencrypted with9F >> telnet?  Aside from this, it would seem that breakins have the sameG >> probability of success, independent of whether you use telnet or ssh  >> >eK > A SSH brute force password guesser brutessh2 was published in August 200414 > which a lot of script kiddies seem to be using see >:9 > http://www.k-otik.com/exploits/08202004.brutessh2.c.php1 >E >0E But if the site only allows three login tries per hour, it might take- a long time. >3 >  > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >5 >> >> --IF >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/       -- hC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/h   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:01:05 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution3 Message-ID: <FNOMzvEjpnSp@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  N In article <opsl9a2qmfzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:  J > Isn't the basic difference that passwds are transmitted unencrypted withE > telnet?  Aside from this, it would seem that breakins have the same F > probability of success, independent of whether you use telnet or ssh  H    The basic difference is that everything is transmitted encrypted withD    SSH.  Passwords, of course, are a prime concern, but the data may    also be of interest.   G    The increase in attacks upon opening SSH is probably a social issue.c   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:02:14 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u, Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 distribution3 Message-ID: <cIFwKAxWz4CR@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  t In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-iYdPzQwuOZOm@dave2_os2.home.ours>, "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes: > 9 > Ok, I'll bite, what makes a logo Java compatible? :-)) t      A trip to Starbucks?w   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 02:37:42 -0800 From: mcbill20@yahoo.com9 Subject: Oracle LGWR process does continuous direct I/O'syC Message-ID: <1108550262.279489.132140@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>g  D I saw this problem once before with Oracle 7.? or 8.? I believe. TheC database works OK but the Oracle LGWR process runs constantly, eveni with no database activity.  E The last time (several years ago), I was told that this was an Oracle D bug and I just needed to get a patch. That turned out to be correct.   Here is my current config:  
 OpenVMS 7.3-1n Oracle 9.2.0.2  D As far as I can tell, this time the problem started when I installedG VMS731_UPDATE V5.0. I assumed I could just go to the Oracle website andrD get the latest patches, but the metalink website has recently purgedE their user/password database. I tried to reregister but it requires ar7 valid CSID, which I don't have anymore, as a home user.w  A I don't know why they would have a policy like this. It's kind of<F funny-- just the opposite of the OpenVMS policy. With VMS, you have toD pay for the original software (other than hobbyist) but you then getA free access to bug fixes. With Oracle, you can download all theirc9 products for free but can't get bug fixes without paying.R  A And of course, they appear to be way behind in porting. I noticed E Oracle 10g available for download on just about every platform exceptE VMS. =   Any suggestions?   Thanks.c Bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:20:02 -0500F' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>k= Subject: RE: Oracle LGWR process does continuous direct I/O'srR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB53F45E@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----9 > From: mcbill20@yahoo.com [mailto:mcbill20@yahoo.com]=20n! > Sent: February 16, 2005 5:38 AMy > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml; > Subject: Oracle LGWR process does continuous direct I/O'si >=20F > I saw this problem once before with Oracle 7.? or 8.? I believe. TheE > database works OK but the Oracle LGWR process runs constantly, even  > with no database activity. >=20G > The last time (several years ago), I was told that this was an OracledF > bug and I just needed to get a patch. That turned out to be correct. >=20 > Here is my current config: >=20 > OpenVMS 7.3-1  > Oracle 9.2.0.2 >=20F > As far as I can tell, this time the problem started when I installed@ > VMS731_UPDATE V5.0. I assumed I could just go to the Oracle=20
 > website andtF > get the latest patches, but the metalink website has recently purgedG > their user/password database. I tried to reregister but it requires ao9 > valid CSID, which I don't have anymore, as a home user.o >=20C > I don't know why they would have a policy like this. It's kind of H > funny-- just the opposite of the OpenVMS policy. With VMS, you have toF > pay for the original software (other than hobbyist) but you then getC > free access to bug fixes. With Oracle, you can download all theiri; > products for free but can't get bug fixes without paying.t >=20C > And of course, they appear to be way behind in porting. I noticedtG > Oracle 10g available for download on just about every platform except$	 > VMS.=20  >=20 > Any suggestions? >=20	 > Thanks.o > Bill >=20     Bill,r   A few misc notes:c  G - the porting dates for Oracle 10G are in the roadmaps at: (updated Febn '05)> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm  : - might want to review patches not in the -500 release at:H ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-1/ALPHA_V731_MASTER_ECO	 _LIST.txt(  < In particular, check out: (has ref to Oracle deadlock issue)H ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-1/VMS731_ACRTL-V0300.tx to  C - keep in mind that Oracle are doing BOTH OpenVMS Itanium AND AlphahF versions of 10G at the same time.  Oracle Rdb for OpenVMS Itanium beta is now available.l  H [my personal take is that most Cust's are still using some version of 9iB (9.2.0.5?) and even 8i. It is only a small subset of those who are? actively planning to implement 10G in the short term, but ymmv]   F Oracle 9.2.0.2 is pretty old from an Oracle perspective. Later releaseC notes have numerous misc fixes for LGWR process. V9.2.0.5 is latest F version on OpenVMS with 9.2.0.6 slated for March/April timeframe based' on Oracle support comments in Metalink.m   Regardse  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant7 HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477e kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  $ "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .."   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:41:43 GMT From: Phaeton  <spam@spam.org>2 Subject: Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed?, Message-ID: <37gmb7F5el7pjU1@individual.net>  ' Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> wrote:iK > I got this email today and am looking for an alternate means to read and [H > post.  The News.Individual.NET fees are very reasonable, but I am not G > interested in entering into a contract paid in Euros.  The last time s> > that I asked this group this question, the answer I got was K > News.Individual.NET.  I am now asking what people use for their feed.  I bD > am curious if most of you get your News from a remote server as a J > service, or do you maintain your own News server?  If you maintain your 6 > own News server where do you get your feed for that?  F > I hope I get some answers.  Please do not make me go back to Google K > groups for posting!! :)  I really like to read and post from the comfort l > of my chosen News reader.l  ? 	Go to the Usenet newsgroup "alt.free.newsservers" and read thetI         posts there. Alternatively, use www.google.com to search for free A         nntp / news servers ( keywords: free nntp news servers ) ]  ? 	Also, there is a webring of sites hosting server details too : # 	http://q.webring.com/hub?ring=nntp-   	Hope this helps...rE                                                                 Csaba,  J  -------------------------------------------------------------------------I    CSABA I. HARANGOZO   |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|   phaeton at iinet dot net dot au J  -------------------------------------------------------------------------;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:h    Nolan's Placebo :4   An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance.   ------------------------------   Date: 16 Feb 2005 13:31:41 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)2 Subject: Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed?, Message-ID: <37h09tF5ehi15U2@individual.net>  , In article <37f872F59aqoqU1@individual.net>,) 	Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> writes:aK > I got this email today and am looking for an alternate means to read and dH > post.  The News.Individual.NET fees are very reasonable, but I am not G > interested in entering into a contract paid in Euros.  The last time r> > that I asked this group this question, the answer I got was K > News.Individual.NET.  I am now asking what people use for their feed.  I  D > am curious if most of you get your News from a remote server as a J > service, or do you maintain your own News server?  If you maintain your 6 > own News server where do you get your feed for that? > F > I hope I get some answers.  Please do not make me go back to Google K > groups for posting!! :)  I really like to read and post from the comfort o > of my chosen News reader.  >   7 Another data point for those wondering wether or not itt8 is worth the 10 Euros.  I checked out my ISP's (verizon)4 News Server.  The amount of SPAM would make actually6 reading news there very painful.  Some of the groups I6 read regularly (like the PDP-11 groups) have more SPAM= than real content on their server while on news.individual.de: I see almost none in any group.r  = Not connected with Freie Universitt Berlin, just a satisfiedH	 customer.w   bill   -- LJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:18:28 +0000g- From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>e2 Subject: Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed?8 Message-ID: <r5l6115uf6kulv3ldcn40qlfet4rb466l6@4ax.com>  K On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:34:24 -0500, Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> wrote:r  @ >The News.Individual.NET fees are very reasonable, but I am not 6 >interested in entering into a contract paid in Euros.   Pourqoui pas ?  L The RoW merrily orders stuff from US suppliers in dollars.  Admittedly, thisJ does mean any goods or services are getting cheaper at the moment, whereasJ for you your $13 annual sub may edge up to $14 or more, but is it really a
 big deal ?  E Running one's own news server is no trivial task - you either need tooI download posts from a nearby server (which is no different from running a:L single news client, either technically or financially), or arrange to be fed0 everything (which will probably cost even more).  F Forte's APN service is very good, but somewhat more than 10 Euros p.a. (about $3/month iirc).   -- /F You dialed an imaginary number.  Turn the phone 90 degrees and retry.    Mail john rather than nospam...e   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:46:01 -0800( From: Javier Henderson <javier@KJSL.COM>2 Subject: Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed?- Message-ID: <86k6p8v77q.fsf@skylane.kjsl.com>e  ( Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> writes:  F > I got this email today and am looking for an alternate means to readG > and post.  The News.Individual.NET fees are very reasonable, but I amhE > not interested in entering into a contract paid in Euros.  The lastcB > time that I asked this group this question, the answer I got wasG > News.Individual.NET.  I am now asking what people use for their feed.pE > I am curious if most of you get your News from a remote server as atD > service, or do you maintain your own News server?  If you maintain; > your own News server where do you get your feed for that?e  B I run my own news server, and have several reliable feeds. I'll beC happy to exchange feeds with whomever asks, just drop me a note and  we'll take it from there.l   -jav   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:31:01 +0000 (UTC)pP From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)2 Subject: Re: OT:  Where do you get your News feed?$ Message-ID: <cv000l$lj6$2@online.de>  8 In article <37f872F59aqoqU1@individual.net>, Thomas Wirt <twnews@kittles.com> writes: e  K > I got this email today and am looking for an alternate means to read and OH > post.  The News.Individual.NET fees are very reasonable, but I am not G > interested in entering into a contract paid in Euros.  The last time p> > that I asked this group this question, the answer I got was K > News.Individual.NET.  I am now asking what people use for their feed.  I aD > am curious if most of you get your News from a remote server as a J > service, or do you maintain your own News server?  If you maintain your 6 > own News server where do you get your feed for that? > F > I hope I get some answers.  Please do not make me go back to Google K > groups for posting!! :)  I really like to read and post from the comfort e > of my chosen News reader.c  I My ISP has a news server; maybe yours does too!  Probably, most of their  B users don't even know what a news server is, so they don't bother  mentioning it.  I The only disadvantage is that I can't post articles which I moderate for hC a moderated newsgroup.  Fortunately, I have an account on a remote  B machine at a university I use for that purpose, but I use my ISPs  newsserver for everything else.   C I have used Matt Madison's NEWSRDR program for more than 10 years; s highly recommended!s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:50:29 +0200m4 From: Mike Rechtman <michael.rechtman.nospam@hp.com>( Subject: Re: Queue Length on shadow disk% Message-ID: <42131765.8B596BD@hp.com>.   bill@wcschmidt.com wrote:- > I > I would think this was a missing patch, but I have 10 DSA on a 2 membereE > cluster and all the other drives are reporting normally and this is0 > only happening on 1 system    G IIRC: Known problem with $MONITOR DISK/IT=QUEUE on V7.2 with disks used 5 as spool devices for print queues. Is this your case?.6 Also think it was fixed in ECOs after V7.2-x (only...)   Mike --  E ---------------------------------------------------------------------cE Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that.t? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il*lF Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home): 972-2-9908337  B   "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"E ---------------------------------------------------------------------y -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----e Version: 3.1: GCM/CS d(-)pu s:+>:- a++ C++ U-- L-- W++ N++ K? w--- V+++$6 PS+ PE-- t 5? X- tv-- b+ DI+ D-- G e++ h--- r+++ y+++@ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------    ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 01:26:58 -0800 From: Pierre.Bru@spotimage.frm4 Subject: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?C Message-ID: <1108546018.549993.318580@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>    hi,t  G is there a way to read the monitor variables (thoses at the >>> prompt,g& before boot) from an OpenVMS session ?   TIA, Pierre.r   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 01:33:51 -0800 From: mcbill20@yahoo.com8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?C Message-ID: <1108546431.364565.261640@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>.   You can use f$getenv. Type:.  ! $ help lexical f$getenv argumentsl  ; to get a list of items you can read. Here is sample output:l  * $ write sys$output f$getenv("bootdef_dev") SCSI 0 1008 0 0 0 0 0o- $ write sys$output f$getenv("booted_osflags")s 0o& $ write sys$output f$getenv("tty_dev") 0l& $ write sys$output f$getenv("license") MU* $ write sys$output f$getenv("auto_action") HALT  " What are you trying to accomplish?   Bill   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 05:24:51 -0800 From: Pierre.Bru@spotimage.fr 8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?C Message-ID: <1108560291.294759.156080@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>u   thx.  D I want to know if a network adaptor is set to 100Mb full duplex with8 LANCP after the boot or with a >>> command and I can not shutdown/reboot the alpha now.   Pierre.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:27:15 +00005- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>t8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?, Message-ID: <37h061F5a3bssU1@individual.net>   Pierre.Bru@spotimage.fr wrote:   > thx. > F > I want to know if a network adaptor is set to 100Mb full duplex with: > LANCP after the boot or with a >>> command and I can not  > shutdown/reboot the alpha now.   	$ mcr lancp 	LANCP> show device/char   Couldn't you simply have done:   	$ mcr lancp 	LANCP> help 	LANCP> help show device   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 14:31:44 +0100. From: huber@NOBODY-mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?+ Message-ID: <ZdTS2htFJAZ2@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>e  c In article <1108560291.294759.156080@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Pierre.Bru@spotimage.fr writes:k > thx. > F > I want to know if a network adaptor is set to 100Mb full duplex with: > LANCP after the boot or with a >>> command and I can not  > shutdown/reboot the alpha now.  ,   LANCP show device ewa0 /characteristic/all  ( -- e6    Joseph Huber, Muenchen  http://www.huber-joseph.de/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:57:42 -0800v# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>k8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?( Message-ID: <opsmamegjezgicya@hyrrokkin>  : On 16 Feb 2005 01:33:51 -0800, <mcbill20@yahoo.com> wrote:  * > write sys$output f$getenv("auto_action")  7 I would find it useful on occasion to do something liken  * $ write sys$output f$getenv("auto_action") RESTARTh1 $ write sys$output f$setenv("auto_action","halt")  modified" $ ! similarly read and set CONSOLE $ reboot   or       -- cC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/6   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 06:03:10 -0800 From: Pierre.Bru@spotimage.fr#8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?C Message-ID: <1108562589.998766.167260@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>E   yes, I know LANCP, but doR  +                     Yes  Full duplex enableg0                     Yes  Full duplex operational(             TwistedPair  Line media type*                     100  Line speed (mbps)  F mean that the network adapter has been setup like this before the boot: at the >>> prompt or after the boot with a LANCP command ?   Pierre.S   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:21:26 +0000s- From: Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com>t8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?, Message-ID: <37h3bjF5dlnt9U1@individual.net>   Pierre.Bru@spotimage.fr wrote:   > yes, I know LANCP, but do  > - >                     Yes  Full duplex enablet2 >                     Yes  Full duplex operational* >             TwistedPair  Line media type, >                     100  Line speed (mbps) > H > mean that the network adapter has been setup like this before the boot< > at the >>> prompt or after the boot with a LANCP command ?  A OK, I had parsed your original query as a native English speaker.i& Now I understand what you were asking.  & Using LANCP, it is impossible to tell.  F If this is a standalone system, then hit Break / Control-P or whatever+ it is for your system at the console, then:e   	>>> show e*mode   (and if necessary)  9 	>>> set e...mode FastFD  (e.g. >>> set ewa0_mode FastFD)v   Then:i   	>>> c  = In a cluster enviroment, just make sure your typing speed is,c ahem, appropriately fast :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 08:37:33 -0800 From: JimStrehlow@data911.comi8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?C Message-ID: <1108571853.458156.104310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>h  > What version of OpenVMS allows you to use a f$setenv function?7 v7.3-1 returns an -IVFAM invalid lexical function name.e   Jimt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:01:29 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 8 Subject: Re: read monitor (>>>) variables from OpenVMS ?( Message-ID: <opsmauwrr2zgicya@hyrrokkin>  ? On 16 Feb 2005 08:37:33 -0800, <JimStrehlow@data911.com> wrote:   @ > What version of OpenVMS allows you to use a f$setenv function?9 > v7.3-1 returns an -IVFAM invalid lexical function name.  >p > Jimo >e2 Didn't imply it existed, I said it would be useful     -- sC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:01:14 GMTo" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: rx5670 for $2Ke0 Message-ID: <00A3F775.629FBE5A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  N In article <opsl9sp0nazgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:B >Anybody else get the offer?  Now if only I could get it with GEM, >I could use it. >MQ >http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/prot/ne/ne_NewsDetail_PRT_IDX/1,1649,1908,00.htmlo  " I get no communications from DSPP.   -- d< http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.  -- o, Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! r -- nK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 03:53:34 -0800& From: "Galen" <gspamtackett@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: rx5670 for $2KrC Message-ID: <1108554814.005133.163730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   B This offer is only available to DSPP _company_ members. IndividualF members (like me, unfortunately) don't have access to DSPP's discounts on hardware.   Tom Linden wrote:8C > Anybody else get the offer?  Now if only I could get it with GEM,n > I could use it.h >: >tP http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/prot/ne/ne_NewsDetail_PRT_IDX/1,1649,1908,00.html > --E > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/r   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 11:48:08 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: rx5670 for $2Kz3 Message-ID: <5MFyd+Hr0Ova@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  U In article <00A3F775.629FBE5A@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:IP > In article <opsl9sp0nazgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:C >>Anybody else get the offer?  Now if only I could get it with GEM,o >>I could use it.  >>R >>http://h21007.www2.hp.com/dspp/prot/ne/ne_NewsDetail_PRT_IDX/1,1649,1908,00.html > $ > I get no communications from DSPP.  
 Nor do we.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 01:14:03 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>M Subject: Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)tB Message-ID: <1108545243.560776.95730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:i > AEF wrote:D > > always comes out right. Furthermore, physicists have accelerated> > > particles to enormous energies in the lab. They have given	 particles F > > such energies that would propel them to a thousand times the speed ofG > > light (and more) according to pre-relativistic (Newtonian) physics.  >0E > But none have built a small "rocket" engine on the particle to giveh it! > the ability to self-accelerate.. > F > Transfering energy from a stable location to one which is travelling atF > nearly the speed of light is not the same as generating acceleration= > from within the "thing" travelling at very very high speed.m  ; That's right. But in this case it only makes matters worse.   G > In a madison bike race (in a velodrome), it is a relay race where the,F > runner transfers his speed to the one taking the relay. (think about a E > controlled collision between 2 bikesgoing different speeds). If the F > "giver" is going at 50km/h and the "taker" is going at 30km/h, there isB > a 20km/h difference and thus quite a bit of energy transfer when contactIG > is established and the take accereates as he receives the energy fromd > the giver. >aE > But if the giver is going at 50kmh and the taker is going at 50kmh,  thenG > the giver won't be able to give any additional energy to the taker soM/ > the take won't be able to accelerate anymore.r >t? > But that doesn't mean that each cyclist can't use his legs tol
 accelerate > beyond 50km/h.  2 This has nothing to do with how accelerators work.   [...]a >tG > So in your example, you are using devices capable of giving a limitedfF > amount of speed. (lets say a powerful magnet). Once the particle has@ > attained the speed of the magnetic impulse that is pushing it, further @ > magnetic impulses will not accelerate it further, a bit like a sailboatG > that is already going at the same speed as the wind. More wind at ther) > same speed won't accelerate it anymore.   9 Again, this has nothing to do with how accelerators work.a  B > Or, once a surfer has accelereated to a point where he has moved aheadtC > of the wave, the wave won't accelerate him anymore until he slowsd down$ > and lets the wave catch up to him. >eD > However, put a small motor on the surfboard and the surfer will be able- > to accelerate beyond the speed of the wave.h >tD > So far , experiements have all been about particles accelerated by@ > stationary devices/magnets/whatever.  A particle riding a wave produced= > externally and thus limited by the speed of that wsoave. Som
 basically,D > what the law states is that if you build a solar sail, the vehicle won'tiE > be able to go faster than the speed of the energy sent at the solart sail.b  E Well, JF, can you tell me what is limiting this wave? I assure you iteA is not a limitation of the device itself. You have no idea of howm accelerators work.   >iD > But I don't believe that they have done any "engine on a particle" thatG > would allow the particle to throw mass out to accelerate itself. (eg:s! > ion engine, rocket engine etc).o  3 As I said above this would only make matters worse.b   >sE > If mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, then known quantityd ofB > H2 you burn with O2 and propell out the back will also representA > infinite mass and provide infinite acceleration. (relative to a F > stationary object, but on the space ship, it would still be the sameE > masses to you, and the apple you pickup from the refrigirator would ? > still be just as easy to move around inside the spaceship ande wouldn'tB > have an infinite mass relative to what your muscles can move. ).   This is nonsense.r  D What's relevant here is that these devices give the particles enoughG energy to travel at over a thousand times the speed of light (accordingmC to pre-relativistic physics), yet the observed speeds are instead a:B hair less than that of light in vacuum. The speed of your wave hasA nothing to do with this limitation. If that's all it was then thec7 physicists would simply increase the speed of the wave!    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 05:12:25 -0500m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>>M Subject: Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)eB Message-ID: <1108547992.6f6a27bd1ba90d44dd450f39eeb119e3@teranews>  
 AEF wrote:4 > This has nothing to do with how accelerators work.  > But this is my point. The only empirical "evidence" so far areH accelerators which are essentially glorified wind in sails. The sailboatF can't go any faster than the wind speed, no matter how big its sail is, (how much energy it can receive from wind).   ? a beam of light can be dim or extremely bright. Energy level ismF different. But it still just travels at the speed of light and a solar: sail ain't going to go faster than whatever is pushing it.  F My point is that a stationary device that sends energy to a body (suchG as your accelerator) is not the same as a body having its own method ofsB accelerating by itself (such as a real spaceship which throws mass( behind it to accelerate itsefl forwards)  ; > Again, this has nothing to do with how accelerators work.K  B Exactly. My point is that accelerators do not simulate a spaceshipG having its own propulsion system. It simulates a spaceship having a big3F solar sail and relying on a stationary emitter of energy which travelsD at a certain speed towards the sail and thus limits this ship to the# speed at which that energy travels.   G > Well, JF, can you tell me what is limiting this wave? I assure you it C > is not a limitation of the device itself. You have no idea of howe > accelerators work.  ; Aren't they glorified magnets pushing particles in vacuum ?   F > What's relevant here is that these devices give the particles enough> > energy to travel at over a thousand times the speed of light  A A hydraulic piston is able to impart a huge amount of energy on a.H object. But if it moves at 5km/h, no matter if the object is a golf ballH or a 18 wheel truck, neither will go faster than 5km/h because once theyT have reached 5km/h, they go as fast as the piston and thus get no more acceleration.  D So your accelerators may unleash a huge amount of energy, 1000 timesH what is needed to go to the speed of light, but if the energy travels atE speed of light, then it won't be able to accelerate the object fasterhF than that. (same as the hydraulic piston unleashing 1000 times what itF takes to accelerate a golf ball to 5km/h, but the golf ball will still go just at 5km/h.l  C > nothing to do with this limitation. If that's all it was then the 9 > physicists would simply increase the speed of the wave!t  H Waves only travel at a certain speed relative to the object that createsD the wave. Your fancy accelerator magnets may be made up of a millionE seperate magnets that are triggered in a sequence that goes above the-= speed of light around the acceletor. But each magnet is stillaH stationary, and the magnetic wave it emits during the fraction of secondD it is activated is still limited to the speed of a wave emitted by a stationary magnet.  H It is like having a million fans along a sailing course. You can triggerG the fans in a sequence that goes from one fan to the next very quickly,o? but in the end the speed of the wind created by  each fan stillnB determines how fast my sailboat will go. The triggering of fans inH sequence only saves you energy by only triggering the fans that are next to me at any point in time.-   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:34:42 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.orgM Subject: Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !) 3 Message-ID: <aCadbdE6zQBu@eisner.encompasserve.org>1  r In article <1108547992.6f6a27bd1ba90d44dd450f39eeb119e3@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > AEF wrote:5 >> This has nothing to do with how accelerators work.h >  > But this is my point.k  G Since you don't understand how accelerators work, your point is withoutr merit.  * > The only empirical "evidence" so far areJ > accelerators which are essentially glorified wind in sails. The sailboatH > can't go any faster than the wind speed, no matter how big its sail is. > (how much energy it can receive from wind).   D Let us add sailing to the list of things you don't know beans about.& Sailboats can go faster than the wind.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:31:45 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) M Subject: Re: Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)i3 Message-ID: <ulpjqb1QoJ$H@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  r In article <1108547992.6f6a27bd1ba90d44dd450f39eeb119e3@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > AEF wrote:5 >> This has nothing to do with how accelerators work.s > @ > But this is my point. The only empirical "evidence" so far areJ > accelerators which are essentially glorified wind in sails. The sailboatH > can't go any faster than the wind speed, no matter how big its sail is. > (how much energy it can receive from wind).   H    Sorry, sailboats can and do go faster than the wind speed, especially    when tacking.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 04:23:12 -0500l' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Y Subject: Re: Superfluous Responses  WAS Re: DCL command to show number of interactive use 0 Message-ID: <11163n77mih9619@corp.supernews.com>   Tom Linden wrote:hI > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:26:40 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  : > wrote: >  >> Ken Fairfield wrote:2 >> >>> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: >>>s3 >>>> wrong, wrong ... I don't want to have to parset5 >>>> output but do a system call to retrieve a numbera >>>> into a symbol ... >>>> $ ? >>>y' >>>      $ iusers = F$GetSyi("IJOBLIM")t; >>>  Looks like the rest of you folks need to go back for as  >>> DCL refresher course...  :-)
 >>>      -Kenw >> >>F >> Uh Uh Ken, he wants the currently logged in interactive users, not D >> the  authorized number of interactive users specified in IJOBLIM. >  > F > I notice quite often many responses that are out of sync, they are   > respondingH > to something that was long ago resolved.  Why is that?  Are they not  	 > reading:H > the responses, are they not able to read the responses, have they not  > seen  thet, > responses?  I for one, find it a nuisance. >  >>G >> I didn't think that looked right, and went into help, VAX/VMS V7.2,  H >> and  didn't immediately find that item code.  Further reading showed: >>L >>           You can also specify any of the system parameters listed in theB >>           OpenVMS System Management Utilities Reference Manual. >>C >> You get used to looking for what you want to see, and forget to    >> actually  read the text.  :-) >> >> Daver >  >  >  > H At the time I posted, there were no other responses to Ken that I could H see.  I'm reading news provided by my ISP.  They seem to be more timely B than my last ISP, but, I've noticed things out of sync many times.   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 23:15:14 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>H Subject: Re: Superfluous Responses WAS Re: DCL command to show number ofC Message-ID: <1108538114.500877.123940@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>o   George Cook wrote:7 > In article <opsl9rzpwuzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden"s <tom@kednos.com> writes:3 > > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:26:40 -0500, Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com>h
 > > wrote: > >c > >> Ken Fairfield wrote:   > >>> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: [...]mF > > I notice quite often many responses that are out of sync, they are   > > respondingD > > to something that was long ago resolved.  Why is that?  Are they notn > > readingrE > > the responses, are they not able to read the responses, have theyn not seen > > the1. > > responses?  I for one, find it a nuisance.    # They are not reading the responses.s  ( They are not able to read the responses.  ! They have not seen the responses.r  1 You missed a comma between "I" and "for one". :-)c    D > In general they have not seen the responses (and in some cases may neverlB > see some of them). Usenet is a multiply interconnected store and forward.E > network with highly variable propagation times. I have administerediF > a news server for over ten years and in the early years was lucky to6 > have news articles within 12 hours of being current.    F When I accessed comp.os.vms via delphi in the late 90s, I noticed that9 many posts actually were missing as compared to dejanews!b   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:39:43 -0800 % From: DeanW <dean.woodward@gmail.com> ( Subject: TCPIP automatic route additions6 Message-ID: <3f119ada0502160839a6e7021@mail.gmail.com>  E I have a customer with a somewhat mis-configured network. Clients areEA connecting to the VMS box via a router that normally shouldn't beaB passing that traffic- and when they do, TCPIP (5.0a) automatically? adds a route back to that client's subnet through the incorrectiF router, which then prevents all the rest of the clients on that subnet from connecting the proper way.o  C It's a simple installation, with not dynamic routing enabled on therC VMS side (or anywhere, if they're following my suggestion- but they.E did just bring a high-priced network consultant in, which is probablyn2 how we got this mess in the first place... *sigh*)  + Anyway, the routing table should look like:y   $ tcpip sho route0  $                              DYNAMIC  < Type           Destination                           Gateway  6 DN    0.0.0.0                               172.16.1.15 DH    127.0.0.1                             127.0.0.1t6 AN    172.16.0.0/22                         172.16.1.48 DN    <external_net>/24                      172.16.1.10 $ tcpip sho route /perm   &                              PERMANENT  < Type           Destination                           Gateway  6 PN    0.0.0.0                               172.16.1.15 PH    127.0.0.1                             127.0.0.1s6 PN    172.16.0.0/22                         172.16.1.46 PN    <external_net>/28                    172.16.1.10 $i  B The trouble comes when something connects from 192.168.0.x via the@ firewall at 172.16.1.10 instead of coming in through the defaultE router (172.16.1.1) Solving this issue is going to take some time, ascD it's sporradic (usually once or twice a month) but crippling when it0 happens, until the incorrect routes get removed.  L Is there a way to have TCPIP not automatically add routes that I don't want?  @ If I put a permanent route in for 192.168.0/24 to go through theC default router, will that defeat the automatic routes being added? oB (I'm dubious- note that the permenant route to the external net is5 correct, the dynamic one has an incorrect bitmask...)s   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:33:31 +0000 (UTC)o6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER)= Subject: Thoughts about VMS ECOs now in .PCSI$COMPRESSED form 1 Message-ID: <newscache$urd0ci$z4m1$1@news.sil.at>   H In case you haven't noticed (eg. haven't got the mail relayed from Sue):J VMS ECOs are now no longer distributed via FTSV DCX compressed .PCSI kits.. These kits are now in .PCSI$COMPRESSED format.  K Yesterday, the first ECOs was released in this format (VMS732_DRIVER V0100)o1 (why isn't it included in the master ECO list ??).( and I wish to express my thoughts/rants.  C 1) I like to get a kit with the original date from VMS engineering.sG That means, I don't like files with dates from a copy, ftp or download. 8 Therefore, I like to get them ZIPped, BACKUPed or DCXed.  J 2) I like to get a kit without corrupting the file attributes during copy,I ftp or download. I don't like to find out how to restore file attributes. - Therefore, I like to get them ZIPped or DCXed<  6 3) I like to get a kit in a format which I can unpack.H I don't like to use other machines (eg. using a VAX to unpack a VAX kit)8 Therefore, I like to get them ZIPped (best with ZIPSFX).  4 4) I like to get kits every time in the same format.J I don't like to use one method to handle some files (VMS ECOs) and another< method to handle all other files (eg. layered products ECOs); Therfore, I like to get ZIPped .PCSI kits for all products.     C Is there a chance, that VMS engineering (ECO management) returns to L packaged Kit Files ? .PCSI (or .PCSI$COMPRESSED) files, but zipped (ZIPSFX),. instead of DCX/FTSV. Just like all other ECOs.4 Please, now, before too many news kits are around...     -EPLAN  E PS: Does everybody know how to restore a .PCSI$COMPRESSED Kit after ab* VMS MOZILLA download ? I'm still trying... -- l Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERm% Network and OpenVMS system specialistd E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 08:18:28 -0800 From: JimStrehlow@data911.comsA Subject: Re: Thoughts about VMS ECOs now in .PCSI$COMPRESSED formeC Message-ID: <1108570708.301186.211760@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>s    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:B ... VMS ECOs are now no longer distributed via FTSV DCX compressed .PCSI kits.-. These kits are now in .PCSI$COMPRESSED format. ...A  E I just downloaded my first .PCSI$COMPRESSED patch and supporting text- file.-F I have a test AlphaServer that I allow FTP gets; so I downloaded it in binary form just fine.  C My complaint was that for the first such download, the accompanyingaD text file had a misleading instruction in it which I reported to HP.> An OpenVMS v7.3-1 patch said that it obsoleted a v7.3-2 patch.  B I check the FTP site about every two weeks or at least monthly forE patches and revisions. The date when I download a patch works for me;tG but I understand your concerns. I would prefer ZIP format so that I cana preserve the H.P. issue date.m  5 H.P., is there a reason why you avoid the ZIP format?   8 Jim Strehlow, Database and OpenVMS Systems Administrator Alameda, CA, USA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:30:21 +0100e" From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>( Subject: Re: VMS Group purchase process?( Message-ID: <4213913D.592A730E@spam.com>  J next question is I do know of some Swiss Financers who are wondering aboutN spending some money in the best operating system ever produced, mainly in this  international security crisis...   D.   John Smith a *crit :   > Didier Morandi wrote:o > > A question:r > >iD > > What could be a purchase process to see HP sell the VMS Group to > > someone else?  > > ? > > Send a letter to the interim CEO and ask for a rendez-vous?h >eM > Step 1: Have at least $2 billion in small unmarked bills before you call orw > write. >u > Next question? >e > --/ > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.(   --2 Didier MORANDI - VMS Expert and SAP CRM Consultant5 13 chemin du Gu - 1213 Petit-Lancy (GE)  Switzerlando1     Phone : +4179 8199735 - www.didiermorandi.comU   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:41:34 +0100h" From: Didier MORANDI <no@spam.com>( Subject: Re: VMS Group purchase process?( Message-ID: <421393DD.C69E346B@spam.com>   Jean-Franois,  F I am not unknown to the VMS part of HP and I do have no credibility...4 So it was not my intention to go there by myself :-)   D.   JF Mezei a *crit : >  > Didier Morandi wrote:d > >p > > A question:r > >eL > > What could be a purchase process to see HP sell the VMS Group to someone	 > > else?l > >b? > > Send a letter to the interim CEO and ask for a rendez-vous?  > H > You hire investment bankers, pay them the big bucks and they will thenH > contact HP with the offer. If you go there yourself, as an unknown you > will have no credibility.    ------------------------------   Date: 16 Feb 2005 13:25:17 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)- Subject: Re: Where do you get your News feed?r, Message-ID: <37gvttF5ehi15U1@individual.net>  , In article <37glmcF592gb5U1@individual.net>,0 	Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> writes: > Syltrem wrote: > O >> For $2.95US per month you can have Forte newsgroups (look for APN service oni >> their site) >> i >> www.forteinc.come >> e >> They are reliable.  > E > (This is another "Me too" re the News.Individual.Net announcement).e >  > $US 2.95 per *month* ? > D > That doesn't compare very favourably with the 10 Euros per *year*,E > and I consider the News.Individual.Net service to be 100% reliable.- > ? > I'll be quite happy to pay my 10 Euros for a quality service.  >   ? I don't know the reason, but using a web browser at work rathery> than from home (could my ISP be doing something that caused itC not to work?) resulted in success.  I have happily paid my 10 Eurosy$ and will continue using the service,   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:40:11 +0100o, From: Helmut Michels <michels@linmpi.mpg.de>/ Subject: [ANN] Data Plotting Library DISLIN 8.3 + Message-ID: <cuvifr$23i1$3@gwdu112.gwdg.de>   B I am pleased to announce version 8.3 of the data plotting software DISLIN.   ; DISLIN is a high-level and easy to use plotting library fortC displaying data as curves, bar graphs, pie charts, 3D-colour plots,-A surfaces, contours and maps. Several output formats are supportedpB such as X11, VGA, PostScript, PDF, CGM, WMF, HPGL, TIFF, GIF, PNG, BMP and SVG.  B The software is available for several C, Fortran 77 and Fortran 90C compilers. Plotting extensions for the interpreting languages Perl,TB Python and Java are also supported for the most operating systems.  C DISLIN distributions and manuals in PDF, PostScript and HTML formatw' are available from the DISLIN home page,         http://www.dislin.de   and via FTP from the server   )       ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/grafik/dislini     -------------------e    Helmut Michels     Max Planck Institute forn>    Solar System Research               Phone: +49 5556 979-334>    Max-Planck-Str. 2                   Fax  : +49 5556 979-240C    D-37191 Katlenburg-Lindau           Mail : michels@linmpi.mpg.dew   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 07:31:03 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.orgO Subject: Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaws3 Message-ID: <l1vp6JT2TDte@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <1108541475.cf40cce7dde912d82fdbb830a42d3249@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > AEF wrote:C >> always comes out right. Furthermore, physicists have acceleratedoG >> particles to enormous energies in the lab. They have given particlesIH >> such energies that would propel them to a thousand times the speed ofF >> light (and more) according to pre-relativistic (Newtonian) physics. > H > But none have built a small "rocket" engine on the particle to give it" > the ability to self-accelerate.  > I > Transfering energy from a stable location to one which is travelling ataF > nearly the speed of light is not the same as generating acceleration= > from within the "thing" travelling at very very high speed.   B Right.  It's not the same.  And if you use a galilean transform toG predict how it will work, you'll get the wrong answer.  If you use the 0, Lorentz transform, you get the right answer.  G > In a madison bike race (in a velodrome), it is a relay race where thevH > runner transfers his speed to the one taking the relay. (think about aE > controlled collision between 2 bikesgoing different speeds). If the-I > "giver" is going at 50km/h and the "taker" is going at 30km/h, there ismJ > a 20km/h difference and thus quite a bit of energy transfer when contactG > is established and the take accereates as he receives the energy from( > the giver.  J > But if the giver is going at 50kmh and the taker is going at 50kmh, thenG > the giver won't be able to give any additional energy to the taker so-/ > the take won't be able to accelerate anymore./ > J > But that doesn't mean that each cyclist can't use his legs to accelerate > beyond 50km/h.  A You do know the formula for velocity addition in the relativistic- regime, right?  G > So in your example, you are using devices capable of giving a limitedaF > amount of speed. (lets say a powerful magnet). Once the particle hasH > attained the speed of the magnetic impulse that is pushing it, furtherI > magnetic impulses will not accelerate it further, a bit like a sailboatVG > that is already going at the same speed as the wind. More wind at the ) > same speed won't accelerate it anymore.y  # Bad analogy.  Try this one instead.>  F A particle in an accelerator is like a surfer riding a wave.  There isB no relativistic speed limit on the phase velocity of that magnetic wave.  t  A And it's not a magnetic wave.  It's an electric field.  Magnetism ? causes charged particles to change direction with no net change0A in speed.  Electric fields cause charged particles to accelerate.   < We can pulse the fields at just the right rhythm so that theG particle is always on the downward slope as it passes each acceleration B point.  Again, there is no relativistic speed limit on our abilityC to pulse these fields.  We can do it at 10 times the speed of lighta6 if we like.  But if we do, the particle won't keep up.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:29:10 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)dO Subject: Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flawb3 Message-ID: <+P235KDiWHeh@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  r In article <1108541475.cf40cce7dde912d82fdbb830a42d3249@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > H > But none have built a small "rocket" engine on the particle to give it" > the ability to self-accelerate.  > I > Transfering energy from a stable location to one which is travelling atlF > nearly the speed of light is not the same as generating acceleration= > from within the "thing" travelling at very very high speed.w  !    The laws of physics say it is.a  G > In a madison bike race (in a velodrome), it is a relay race where the-H > runner transfers his speed to the one taking the relay. (think about aE > controlled collision between 2 bikesgoing different speeds). If thebI > "giver" is going at 50km/h and the "taker" is going at 30km/h, there iscJ > a 20km/h difference and thus quite a bit of energy transfer when contactG > is established and the take accereates as he receives the energy fromt > the giver.  A    Drafting has nothing to do with relativity, not even GallileannC    relativity.  If you could hold that race in a vacuum that energyrF    transfer would go away.  Particles inside an accelerator are always,    in the best vacuum that can be generated.   > G > So in your example, you are using devices capable of giving a limiteduF > amount of speed. (lets say a powerful magnet). Once the particle hasH > attained the speed of the magnetic impulse that is pushing it, furtherI > magnetic impulses will not accelerate it further, a bit like a sailboatiG > that is already going at the same speed as the wind. More wind at the() > same speed won't accelerate it anymore.t  E    That's simply not true.  The ability to exert force is not relatedN$    to the speed of a pushing device.  D > So far , experiements have all been about particles accelerated byI > stationary devices/magnets/whatever.  A particle riding a wave producede8 > externally and thus limited by the speed of that wave.  H    If that were relavent, the fact that the electromagentic pulse itselfD    always travels at the speed of light and the particles are alwaysJ    going slower than the speed of light would defeat your argument anyhow.  H > If mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, then known quantity ofB > H2 you burn with O2 and propell out the back will also represent3 > infinite mass and provide infinite acceleration. a  C    You are seriously out of touch with the realities of relativity. E    Also, mathematically, when comparing infinties you must study the .F    realtionship to see which values aproach infinity faster, then you 1    can predict the behaviour of the realtionship.B   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2005 23:38:27 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>N Subject: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)C Message-ID: <1108539507.530079.292820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>e   J.F. Mezei posted...   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:F > Despite the very surprising spookiness of certain aspects of quantumC > mechanics, I find the possibility of going backwards in time verye > unlikely.    [JF:]dF It used to be that people tough that you'd die if you exceeded 100mph. ThenC came steam locomotives who broke that barrier and nothing happened.o	 Then cameeG the time when people though you'd disintegrate when you broke the speed> ofE sound. We broke it and people didn't disintegrate. There are 2 people  going atF 25 times the speed of sound right now at this very minute in the space station.   [My response:]  F Yes, it's been a while, but for some reason it recently occurred to meF that there is something here that needs to be cleared up. My apologies- to those who are bothered by late follow-ups.w  G OK. There have been these claims that are now obviously wrong. However,vD it's not like special relativity hasn't been well tested. It has, inE fact, been tested over and over again to astonishing precision and it1@ always comes out right. Furthermore, physicists have acceleratedD particles to enormous energies in the lab. They have given particlesE such energies that would propel them to a thousand times the speed of>C light (and more) according to pre-relativistic (Newtonian) physics.nE Yet, the speeds only approach the speed of light. So it's not like it > hasn't been tried. And if we can't get even things as light asC electrons to go faster than the speed of light, good luck with your.
 space ship!!!-  A So while the speed of light barrier is based on a very, very wellrF established theory, the same can't be said for the 100mph and speed of sound statements quoted above.  G While this is not an exact proof, it does show that there is very, veryo7 little hope for exceeding the speed of light in vacuum.    [JF:]eG Physical movement at some extreme speed may accelerate time relative tot youeD (but your watch would still tick forward normally). But if it is the type of E thing where it never quite gets to 0, then no matter how fast you go,  it won't go negative.   [My response...]D Exceeding the speed of light, in fact, causes the gamma factor to goG imaginary (as in the square root of minus one), not negative. And it isc0 the type of thing that never quite gets to zero.   [...]r   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2005 10:13:10 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oR Subject: Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !)3 Message-ID: <KersUkqQHO8w@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  j In article <1108539507.530079.292820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  I > While this is not an exact proof, it does show that there is very, veryn9 > little hope for exceeding the speed of light in vacuum.t  G    There are (were?) experiments in quantum physics that indicated thattC    the weak force may propogate at speeds in excess of the speed ofrF    light.  There are theories in nucular physics that work out only ifB    the strong force propogates faster than the speed of light.  OfE    course either may be wrong (I'm not at the forefront of physics inr    the work I do).  C    Since Einstein only considered electromagnetic and gravitational H    phenomena it should not suprise us if one of the other forces happens<    to have a propogation speed faster than electromagnetism.  D    But since compounds are held together by eletromagnetic forces a '    spaceship would be constrained by c.8   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:23:38 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>1W Subject: Re: [OT] Speed of light as speed limit (was Re: DECW$CLOCK design flaw !) !)!)mB Message-ID: <1108541475.cf40cce7dde912d82fdbb830a42d3249@teranews>  
 AEF wrote:B > always comes out right. Furthermore, physicists have acceleratedF > particles to enormous energies in the lab. They have given particlesG > such energies that would propel them to a thousand times the speed ofhE > light (and more) according to pre-relativistic (Newtonian) physics.   F But none have built a small "rocket" engine on the particle to give it  the ability to self-accelerate.   G Transfering energy from a stable location to one which is travelling at.D nearly the speed of light is not the same as generating acceleration; from within the "thing" travelling at very very high speed.n  E In a madison bike race (in a velodrome), it is a relay race where theiF runner transfers his speed to the one taking the relay. (think about aC controlled collision between 2 bikesgoing different speeds). If thehG "giver" is going at 50km/h and the "taker" is going at 30km/h, there iskH a 20km/h difference and thus quite a bit of energy transfer when contactE is established and the take accereates as he receives the energy from/
 the giver.  H But if the giver is going at 50kmh and the taker is going at 50kmh, thenE the giver won't be able to give any additional energy to the taker sof- the take won't be able to accelerate anymore.o  H But that doesn't mean that each cyclist can't use his legs to accelerate beyond 50km/h.    D (As a side note, in the 50/50 example, cyclists would still exchangeD energy because the giver would actually push the taker and thus slowG down as much as he can while the receiver accelerates) And while from aoE spectator's point of view, this happens extremely fast and looks very B scary, from the cyclist's point of view, the speeds ar not as high( because they are relative to each other.  E So in your example, you are using devices capable of giving a limited D amount of speed. (lets say a powerful magnet). Once the particle hasF attained the speed of the magnetic impulse that is pushing it, furtherG magnetic impulses will not accelerate it further, a bit like a sailboatoE that is already going at the same speed as the wind. More wind at thee' same speed won't accelerate it anymore.h  F Or, once a surfer has accelereated to a point where he has moved aheadF of the wave, the wave won't accelerate him anymore until he slows down" and lets the wave catch up to him.  G However, put a small motor on the surfboard and the surfer will be ablef+ to accelerate beyond the speed of the wave.e  B So far , experiements have all been about particles accelerated byG stationary devices/magnets/whatever.  A particle riding a wave producedtD externally and thus limited by the speed of that wave. So basically,H what the law states is that if you build a solar sail, the vehicle won'tI be able to go faster than the speed of the energy sent at the solar sail.   G But I don't believe that they have done any "engine on a particle" thateE would allow the particle to throw mass out to accelerate itself. (eg:e ion engine, rocket engine etc).g  F If mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, then known quantity of@ H2 you burn with O2 and propell out the back will also represent? infinite mass and provide infinite acceleration. (relative to asD stationary object, but on the space ship, it would still be the sameC masses to you, and the apple you pickup from the refrigirator wouldnF still be just as easy to move around inside the spaceship and wouldn't@ have an infinite mass relative to what your muscles can move. ).   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.094 ************************