1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 23 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 107       Contents:% Can't copy files using SCP on OpenVMS  Re: HFLOAT to XFLOAT& How to clear device errors w/o reboot?* Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot?* Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot?* Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot?* Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot?* Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot?* Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot?8 How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?P INTO FREE COMPUTER GEAR? FREE SAMSUNG 17" LCD Monitor NO TRICKS-NO SCAM-NO PURCHP Re: Itanium Montecito Wins Microprocessor Report Analysts' Choice  Awardfor Best JRE Problem on OpenVMS Re: JRE Problem on OpenVMS1 Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions 1 Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions 1 Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions % Re: Post Office as an HP VMS customer 3 prod install recovery data directory tree location? 7 Re: prod install recovery data directory tree location?  Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS  Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS  Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS  Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS  There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit centerB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customers- Re: VAXstation 3100: supported under VMS 7.3? - Re: VAXstation 3100: supported under VMS 7.3? - Re: VAXstation 3100: supported under VMS 7.3?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 12:32:55 -0800* From: "Wild1Devil" <rjlolli@sbcglobal.net>. Subject: Can't copy files using SCP on OpenVMSB Message-ID: <1109104374.962409.16180@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>  B I have successfully setup SSH between 2 OpenVms nodes and can send9 commands remotely with no problems.  I'm using public-key G authentication between nodes.  My problem is trying to copy files using G SCP.  I get disconnected everytime and I'm not sure why.  Is there some B setup I'm not doing correctly?  Below is my verbose output of SCP.   _BUD$ scp -v test.txt 5 d_deva@lou:user01:[user.d_deva.ssh2]test_complete.txt   G tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:1560: CRTL version (SYS$SHARE:DECC$SHARE  ident) is: V7.3-2-00> tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:1602: unable to get window size parameters. 4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:152: In+ ssh_file_copy_file_regsiter_filename, name: ! /USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2/test.txt 4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:152: In+ ssh_file_copy_file_regsiter_filename, name: # user01:[user.d_deva.ssh2]test_compl  ete.txt 4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:152: In+ ssh_file_copy_file_regsiter_filename, name: ! /USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2/test.txt E tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:713: Received error "SSH_FC_OK"., msg:  Globbing successful.8 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:778: Starting transfer...4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:/USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2/test.txtG tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:3223: File list has 2  files.? tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:2772: Not yet ) connected, or connection down, waiting... > tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:938: Making local connection. E tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:200: Source file is ! "raw", and it needs to be parsed. E tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:1401: No connection  yet. Waiting... 4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:152: In4 ssh_file_copy_file_regsiter_filename, name: test.txt4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:152: InD ssh_file_copy_file_regsiter_filename, name: /USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2G tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:339: Next source file & is /USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2/test.txt .4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:152: In4 ssh_file_copy_file_regsiter_filename, name: test.txt? tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:2772: Not yet ) connected, or connection down, waiting... F tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFileCopy/SSHFILECOPY.C:956: Connecting to remote. host. (host = lou, user = d_deva, port = NULL). tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[0] = /sys$system/tcpip$ssh_ssh21 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[1] = -l 5 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[2] = d_deva 1 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[3] = -v 1 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[4] = -x 1 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[5] = -a 1 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[6] = -o F tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[7] = clearallforwardings yes1 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[8] = -o E tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[9] = passwordprompt %U@%H's 	 password: 2 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[10] = -o; tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[11] = nodelay yes 2 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[12] = -oD tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[13] = authenticationnotify yes 3 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[14] = lou 2 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[15] = -s4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:2112: argv[16] = sftp4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:1881: notification: 04 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:1881: notification: 1$ debug: connecting to lou, port 22... debug: entering event loop3 debug: ssh_client_wrap: creating transport protocol E debug: SshAuthMethodClient/SSHAUTHMETHODC.C:146: Added "publickey" to  usable methods. > debug: Ssh2Client/SSHCLIENT.C:1368: creating userauth protocolG debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:518: local ip = 10.162.2.76, local port =  52848 G debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:520: remote ip = 10.162.2.77, remote port  = 220 debug: SshConnection/SSHCONN.C:2184: Wrapping...F debug: Ssh2Transport/TRCOMMON.C:666: Remote version: SSH-2.0-2.4.1 SSH Secure Shell OpenVMS V1.0 B debug: Ssh2Transport/TRCOMMON.C:1212: c_to_s: cipher 3des-cbc, mac hmac-sha1, compression none B debug: Ssh2Transport/TRCOMMON.C:1215: s_to_c: cipher 3des-cbc, mac hmac-sha1, compression none @ debug: Ssh2Client/SSHCLIENT.C:530: Host key found from database.D debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:322: Received SSH_CROSS_STARTUP packet from connection protocol. G debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:372: Received SSH_CROSS_ALGORITHMS packet  from connection protocol. > debug: Ssh2AuthPubKeyClient/AUTHC-PUBKEY.C:926: adding keyfile3 "/USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2/d_deva-bud" to candidates @ debug: Ssh2AuthPubKeyClient/AUTHC-PUBKEY.C:474: Constructing and sending signature.../ debug: Ssh2AuthPubKeyClient/AUTHC-PUBKEY.C:567: . ssh_client_auth_pubkey_send_signature: reading# /USER01/user/d_deva/ssh2/d_deva-bud C debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:290: Received SSH_CROSS_AUTHENTICATED   packet from connection protocol.4 tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:Scp2/SCP2.C:1881: notification: 05 debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:723: num_channels now 1 E tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:SshFCTransfer/SSHFC_TRANSFER.C:1688: No connection  yet. Waiting... B debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:154: DISCONNECT received: Connection closed. 0 debug: Ssh2/SSH2.C:248: locally_generated = TRUE3 Disconnected; connection lost (Connection closed.). 5 debug: Ssh2Common/SSHCOMMON.C:697: num_channels now 0 + debug: Got session close with exit_status=0 " debug: destroying client struct...  , tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:ssh_sigchld_real_callback? tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe:ssh_sigchld_process_pid: calling handler pid  538969620 code 27 G tcpip$ssh_scp2.exe: warning: child process (/sys$system/tcpip$ssh_ssh2)  exited with code 27.    < %TCPIP-E-SSH_FC_ERROR, undetermined error within sshfilecopy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:45:32 -0800 , From: Ken Fairfield <my.full.name@intel.com> Subject: Re: HFLOAT to XFLOAT + Message-ID: <cvgcmc$r63$1@news01.intel.com>    Carlos Fernandez wrote: 	 > HI, all  > F > I've programed a routine conversion using lib$ calls to convert dataB > from HFLOAT to XFLOAT, and as I don't have available a file with* > HFLOAT data can't test if it works well.  ?     OK, why are you using LIB$ routines?  It sounds like you're @ reinventing the wheel. You should be using CVT$CONVERT_FLOAT and6 be done with job.  See: HELP RTL CVT CVT$CONVERT_FLOAT  H > What I need is a simple file with data in Hfloat and the equivalent inD > ASCII for testing this routine. Does any one provided me with this	 > sample?   >     Is the problem that you need binary data in H-float format@ to read into your routine and convert?  It should be possible to@ write a small program to have your customer run on their VAX and: ftp the output back to you for testing.  In this case, the= extensive testing has been done by VMS Engineering.  You need ? only a very few tests to be sure you're calling the CVT routine 
 correctly.   	-Ken   0 P.S. You can also get an account on Doc Cypher's4       "Deathrow Cluster" which has both a VAX and an6       Alpha in it.  Go to http://www.openvms-rocks.com       to sign up.  --  6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! D1C Automation VMS System Support " who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 13:52:25 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com / Subject: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? C Message-ID: <1109109145.449212.122520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   < Isn't there a freeware program out there I thought somewhere2 I saw once that clears device errors w/o a reboot?   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 17:00:11 -0500/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks) 3 Subject: Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? - Message-ID: <qU4e6t7U23Vu@cuebid.zko.dec.com>    bob@instantwhip.com writes: > > Isn't there a freeware program out there I thought somewhere4 > I saw once that clears device errors w/o a reboot?  F There is likely a freeware program to do that; it may actually perform9 that operation correctly.  It may also crash your system.   A V7.3-2 introduced the $ SET DEVICE /RESET = ERROR_COUNT command.    ) You can thank Guy Peleg for that command.     --    M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:35:49 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 3 Subject: Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? / Message-ID: <9tOSd.441$RL4.85@news.cpqcorp.net>   _ In article <1109109145.449212.122520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: = :Isn't there a freeware program out there I thought somewhere 3 :I saw once that clears device errors w/o a reboot?   I   Thank you for reminding me; the OpenVMS FAQ section "How do I reset the I   error count(s)?" needs an update to point to the SET DEVICE/ERROR=RESET H   command that is avaiable within DCL in current releases; in V7.3-2 andH   later, IIRC.  If you are on an older release, the rest of the FAQ text   does still apply.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:48:17 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG3 Subject: Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? 0 Message-ID: <00A3FC8F.27A82171@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <1109109145.449212.122520@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: = >Isn't there a freeware program out there I thought somewhere 3 >I saw once that clears device errors w/o a reboot?  >   E See the OpenVMS FAQ.  I once supplied a procedure using SDA and DELTA E to do so.  It's very easy to do for people that use these tools every 6 day.  If you don't just follow the example in the FAQ.   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 16:43:39 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com 3 Subject: Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? B Message-ID: <1109119419.928592.17200@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  2 well, I did the SDA and DELTA bit on our alpha vms6 7.1-1H2 system, got the correct error count and zapped it, then exited and did a   
 $ sh dev d  6 and still 4 errors showed ... go back thru the routine3 again and DELTA shows a 0 instead of 4 ... now that 7 may have fixed it in delta but what about the sh device   display?  Any more bright ideas?   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 16:47:53 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com 3 Subject: Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? C Message-ID: <1109119673.439070.267020@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   2 well, I did the SDA and DELTA bit on our alpha vms6 7.1-1H2 system, got the correct error count and zapped it, then exited and did a   
 $ sh dev d  6 and still 4 errors showed ... go back thru the routine3 again and DELTA shows a 0 instead of 4 ... now that 7 may have fixed it in delta but what about the sh device   display?  Any more bright ideas?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:33:39 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>3 Subject: Re: How to clear device errors w/o reboot? + Message-ID: <421BF992.ED3C17FC@comcast.net>    bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > > Isn't there a freeware program out there I thought somewhere4 > I saw once that clears device errors w/o a reboot?  H Look for a piece of freeware called ZDEC. Dunno where I got it from, butA its probably still around. I seem to recall it was distributed as D MACRO/32 source code; so, if you built it on your system it was lessF likely to cause a crash. I haven't seen it cause any problems and I've9 been using it on rare occasions since V6.2-1H3 (I think).    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 14:26:34 -06004 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow)A Subject: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? 3 Message-ID: <2RSriRZMeq5i@eisner.encompasserve.org>   K Part of my nightly batch stream includes the daily tape backup. I'm looking I for a way to make BACKUP abort if it runs out of tape, instead of sending H out an OPCOM message to mount a new tape. It's a lights out environment,L with no one around to respond to the message. If BACKUP requests a new tape,I the job hangs, and the stuff following the backup never gets done. Then I ' have a mess to clean up in the morning.   J I've put /NOASSIST on both the MOUNT and BACKUP commands, but that doesn't< do it. There is no $$$ for a stacker. Any other suggestions?    1 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" & 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<K Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf L     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org  I         "To enslave men, successfully and safely, it is necessary to have H         their minds  occupied with thoughts and aspirations short of theL         liberty of which they are  deprived.  A certain degree of attainableJ         good must be kept before them." Frederick Douglas, "My Bondage and         My Freedom," 1855    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:15:58 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? 0 Message-ID: <iiNSd.434$UU5.121@news.cpqcorp.net>  j In article <2RSriRZMeq5i@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes:K :I've put /NOASSIST on both the MOUNT and BACKUP commands, but that doesn't = :do it. There is no $$$ for a stacker. Any other suggestions?   H   BACKUP/NOASSIST is the intended syntax, but it is locked out in batch.F   You might be able to fool BACKUP into accepting /NOASSIST by hackingG   SYS$COMMAND (based on comments in the help text for the command), but G   it would likely be better if BACKUP was able to accept something like C   /NOASSIST when running in batch; it's a good enhancement request. E   (I don't know off-hand why /NOASSIST is ignored in batch, however.)     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:23:00 -0500 6 From: Brad Hamilton <brMadAhaPmiSlton@coMmcAasPt.Snet>E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? 0 Message-ID: <a92dnYQp4KUrP4bfRVn-tg@comcast.com>   Bob Kaplow wrote: M > Part of my nightly batch stream includes the daily tape backup. I'm looking K > for a way to make BACKUP abort if it runs out of tape, instead of sending J > out an OPCOM message to mount a new tape. It's a lights out environment,N > with no one around to respond to the message. If BACKUP requests a new tape,K > the job hangs, and the stuff following the backup never gets done. Then I ) > have a mess to clean up in the morning.  > L > I've put /NOASSIST on both the MOUNT and BACKUP commands, but that doesn't> > do it. There is no $$$ for a stacker. Any other suggestions? >   0 Apologies if these suggestions are not possible:  F - Many UNIX/Windows systems have much larger disks than "typical" VMS D systems.  Would it be possible to NFS-mount some (relatively) empty F disks, and backup across the network?  This would work for everything H except your system disks.  You could then get the UNIX/Windows folks to  backup your savesets to tape.   I - How about backing up to disk savesets, ZIPing the backup savesets, and  = using BACKUP to put the ZIPped backup savesets on tape.  The  I "post-backup" processing could then run "in parallel" with the BACKUP of   the ZIPped savesets.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:54:12 +0000 7 From: David B Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? * Message-ID: <421BC624.5020704@bigpond.com>    Bob Kaplow mentioned in passing:M > Part of my nightly batch stream includes the daily tape backup. I'm looking K > for a way to make BACKUP abort if it runs out of tape, instead of sending J > out an OPCOM message to mount a new tape. It's a lights out environment,N > with no one around to respond to the message. If BACKUP requests a new tape,K > the job hangs, and the stuff following the backup never gets done. Then I ) > have a mess to clean up in the morning.  > L > I've put /NOASSIST on both the MOUNT and BACKUP commands, but that doesn't> > do it. There is no $$$ for a stacker. Any other suggestions? >  > 3 > 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"   7 If you have no operators enabled to service the request 1 then BACKUP will abort.  That is what we do here.    Regards, Dave --  B David B Sneddon (dbs) VMS Systems Programmer dbsneddon@bigpond.comB Sneddo's quick guide ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/B DBS freeware   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:15:29 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? / Message-ID: <111np9437fi447@corp.supernews.com>    Hoff Hoffman wrote: l > In article <2RSriRZMeq5i@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes:M > :I've put /NOASSIST on both the MOUNT and BACKUP commands, but that doesn't ? > :do it. There is no $$$ for a stacker. Any other suggestions?  > J >   BACKUP/NOASSIST is the intended syntax, but it is locked out in batch.H >   You might be able to fool BACKUP into accepting /NOASSIST by hackingI >   SYS$COMMAND (based on comments in the help text for the command), but I >   it would likely be better if BACKUP was able to accept something like E >   /NOASSIST when running in batch; it's a good enhancement request. G >   (I don't know off-hand why /NOASSIST is ignored in batch, however.)   F I'm guessing that a batch job cannot process mount requests.  Only an - external party can process the mount request.   C What it needed is something to tell BACKUP "If you have a problem,   report it and abort".    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:29:46 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? + Message-ID: <421BF8AA.10C1B7D0@comcast.net>     David B Sneddon - bigpond wrote: > " > Bob Kaplow mentioned in passing:O > > Part of my nightly batch stream includes the daily tape backup. I'm looking M > > for a way to make BACKUP abort if it runs out of tape, instead of sending L > > out an OPCOM message to mount a new tape. It's a lights out environment,P > > with no one around to respond to the message. If BACKUP requests a new tape,M > > the job hangs, and the stuff following the backup never gets done. Then I + > > have a mess to clean up in the morning.  > > N > > I've put /NOASSIST on both the MOUNT and BACKUP commands, but that doesn't@ > > do it. There is no $$$ for a stacker. Any other suggestions? > >  > > E > >       Bob Kaplow      NAR # 18L       TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"  > 9 > If you have no operators enabled to service the request 3 > then BACKUP will abort.  That is what we do here.     Yes. That would be one approach.  H Another is to estimate in advance how much data will be written to tape.  C Take a look at http://www.djesys.com/freeware/vms/4038_freeware.zip   F In that archive, you'll find DVOL.COM which makes a guesstimate of howG much actual user data a volume contains based the number of disk blocks G in use, minus the sizes of system files in the MFD. That code was taken ? from the BACKUP procedures I wrote for a previous site. In that H "package", the backup job dispatcher performs the estimates and comparesD that against a hard-coded value used to represent the amount of userF data one can reasonably expect to get on a tape volume. It then buildsF individual backup jobs, trying not to exceed the estimated capacity ofC each volume. I can send you that code as well, if you want. It even E "load balances" across the maxmimum number of concurrent jobs streams  that can run at any one time.    --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 13:49:51 -0800) From: "CALBULLDOG" <calbulldog@gmail.com> Y Subject: INTO FREE COMPUTER GEAR? FREE SAMSUNG 17" LCD Monitor NO TRICKS-NO SCAM-NO PURCH C Message-ID: <1109108991.736749.110990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   G I noticed that every one in this group is into technology like I am.  I G found a way to get a SAMSUNG 17" LCD Monitor for free.  No purchase, no E scam, no survey.  Just register and follow the one-step and you get a F SAMSUNG 17" LCD Monitor. I've already gotten one and am now getting myF second. This is no tricks, no games.  I've gotten mine, now get yours.F http://www.FreeFlatScreens.com/?r=14610912   If you have any questionsC you can go to the link or you can email me at calbulldog@gmail.com.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:42:41 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: Itanium Montecito Wins Microprocessor Report Analysts' Choice  Awardfor Best = Message-ID: <U8CdnX_gOdwOQobfRVn-rQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    Keith Parris wrote:  > JF Mezei wrote:  > J >>> The Intel Montecito processor is the winner of our MPR AnalystsChoice, >>> Award for Best Server Processor of 2004. >> >>G >> Sorry, but that sentence makes the whole article non-credible. Since D >> this chip is not available commercially on systems yet, and it isD >> already 2005, how can such a virtual chip get an award for 2004 ? >  >  > > H >> It may get some speed wins when it becomes availale commercially, butE >> until that happens, it is wrong to talk of Montecito as if it were G >> "current". Remember  the frequent use of the word "will" earlier in   >> the article.  >  > G > Microprocessor Report focuses on new developments, and often studies  I > chips before they are commercially available. For example, Opteron won  ; > the award last year before it was commercially available.   3 Full-fledged Opterons first shipped in April, 2003.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:23:21 -0800 ' From: k2 <karlkras@comkillspamcast.net>  Subject: JRE Problem on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <JOadndZ15pF3I4bfRVn-gA@comcast.com>   Problem found on both:! Java Virtual Machine Information:  java version "1.4.2"0 Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition= Fast VM (build 1.4.2-3, build J2SDK.v.1.4.2:08/20/2004-13:43, "           native threads, jit_142)   and   ! Java Virtual Machine Information:  java version "1.4.2"0 Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition= Fast VM (build 1.4.2-4, build J2SDK.v.1.4.2:12/06/2004-01:55, "           native threads, jit_142) on:  OpenVMS version is V7.3-2.  C I'm having a problem getting strings printed out to stderr working  K properly using java in a commandline interface process. Consider this code:  http://tinyurl.com/4wo7x  C you will see that the line feed from 2nd print process garbles the  / output. I suspect a bug in the JRE for this OS?    regards, Karl   --  2 If replying directly, please edit out the cleverly% decorated bits from my email address.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:27:39 -0800 ' From: k2 <karlkras@comkillspamcast.net> # Subject: Re: JRE Problem on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <TKmdnanWD7lxIobfRVn-rg@comcast.com>  	 k2 wrote:      > http://tinyurl.com/4wo7x( appears to be a problem with this url... try: http://tinyurl.com/4p6wx   sorry. --  2 If replying directly, please edit out the cleverly% decorated bits from my email address.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:47:17 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) : Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions/ Message-ID: <9%LSd.427$MC5.30@news.cpqcorp.net>   N In article <opsmf59zu4zgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:  2 : Can you partition the disk at the shell> prompt?     No.   B   I have made it as difficult as I can manage, and have made everyB   effort to prevent it, and to preserve the integrity of the disk.  A   If you do succeed in bypassing my efforts, you likely will have    corrupted your system disk.   4 : If so, can you boot VMS from different partitions?  D   OpenVMS system disks are NOT partitioned -- while EFI can and doesE   see partitions (either three or five in the typical configuration), E   I've seriously attempted to prevent any and all changes to the disk ,   partitioning as part of the OpenVMS tools.  C   OpenVMS itself does NOT support disk-level disk partitioning, and @   each disk present can contain ONLY one host-visible partition.C   (You can partition disks at the controller level in some hardware @   configurations, and OpenVMS itself will not be aware of such.)  @   The mapping between what EFI sees and what OpenVMS sees is the?   intereresting part here, in my estimation -- OpenVMS does not ?   use the native file structure of EFI, for instance, except as @   necessarily part of the first section of the system bootstrap.  ?   Come to my session at the bootcamp, and I'll explain how the  >   disk is structured in some detail -- I've diagrams and such.      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:39:27 GMT # From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) : Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessions0 Message-ID: <PTLSd.426$MC5.326@news.cpqcorp.net>  \ In article <3a2e11p5gos9geplaf1vrdiefjudqp21vm@4ax.com>, Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> writes:G :On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:24:09 GMT, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote:  : Q :>:However it is still possible to do the equivalent of >>> b dka0 it's just that 1 :>:you have to type in a few more characters e.g.  :>: & :>:shell>  fs0:\efi\vms\vms_loader.efi :>B :>  That's the fixed-disk path to the OpenVMS EFI bootstrap script :>  in the first FAT partition.  : L :It is the equivalent of >>> b dka0 which is also specific to one disk. SomeM :knowledge of which disk you are booting from is necessary just as it is with  :Alpha.   F   There are potentially two different paths to the bootstrap file, theG   fixed-disk path and the removable media path -- the filenames and the G   directory names are different.  The cited path is the fixed-disk path G   specifically for OpenVMS, and not necessarily what will be found on a E   removable optical device.  While arguably similar to BOOT DKA0:, in F   various ways it is also analogous to the classic DU0BOO-, DEFBOO- or(   GENBOO-style console command sequence.     Hoff  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------K     For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:22:46 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> : Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions for bootcamp sessionsB Message-ID: <1109103027.4d98aacc50aef92e01f79556b54b0884@teranews>   Hoff Hoffman wrote: F >   OpenVMS system disks are NOT partitioned -- while EFI can and doesG >   see partitions (either three or five in the typical configuration), G >   I've seriously attempted to prevent any and all changes to the disk . >   partitioning as part of the OpenVMS tools.  F You have provided good explanations of this in recent times. Heck, you> were even able to put in in words *I* could understand :-) :-)  F If there are any session on EFI, it should be with regards to whateverH tools exist on VMS to manage those special files and disk low level bitsD that make those special container files appear as a partition to the intel chip.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:05:54 -0800 3 From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii_googlespam@yahoo.com> . Subject: Re: Post Office as an HP VMS customer0 Message-ID: <111nemjh2oai953@corp.supernews.com>   John Smith wrote:    > Larry Kilgallen wrote:D >> In article <111l1qaod84ks0b@corp.supernews.com>, "C.W.Holeman II"' >> <cwhii_googlespam@yahoo.com> writes:  >>> Larry Kilgallen wrote:< >>>> ...If they just flaunt the POst Office as a HP customer: >>>> without mentioning VMS, then it is useless marketing. >>+ >> And where did Larry Kilgallen say that ?	 >> >> I get no hits on: >>C >> http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=%22If+they+just+flaunt%22O >  > I > It appears that it was a mis-attribution due to sloppy cut/paste by theoJ > poster. It was actually part of a reply JF posted to your posting in theG > thread entitled "Trade Press needs to talk with HP Disaster Tolerencee
 > Customers".s  A Yes exactly, I over corrected another mistake and added this one.    -- f C.W.Holeman II) cwh5ii@Julian5Locals.com remove the fivesP   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 12:44:50 -0800 From: tadamsmar@yahoo.coms< Subject: prod install recovery data directory tree location?C Message-ID: <1109105090.456857.167890@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   * Where is the directory tree where recovery* data is located when you use INSTALL/SAVE?  & Is it OK to just delete these files if% you are willing to give up the optiono of undoing a patch?y  ' I erroneously specified saving recoveryO+ data on a system where I am more interestedn0 in freeing up disk space than I am in being able to undo a patch.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:18:39 GMTn3 From: hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond)a@ Subject: Re: prod install recovery data directory tree location?0 Message-ID: <3dOSd.439$hV5.177@news.cpqcorp.net>  D In article <1109105090.456857.167890@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,  tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes:M  + >Where is the directory tree where recoverys- >data is located when you use INSTALL/SAVE?  e  ) Look in [PCSI$UNDO_*] on your system diskh  5 >Is it OK to just delete these files ...             t:                                                           6 Please see VMS help for PRODUCT SHOW RECOVERY_DATA and PRODUCT DELETE RECOVERY_DATA.r  2 These file are "tied in" to the Product Data Base.6 If you just delete them, you could have problems.        ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:43:10 +0800o From: prep@prep.synonet.comn$ Subject: Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS- Message-ID: <873bvoqnip.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   7 "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:e  E > how about the time we were having ra81's die at a rate of about oneeE > a month.  come to find out they were in the datacenter about 3 feetAD > away from the printers - every night the operator would come in toF > reload the printers and of course just "drop" the paper boxes on theC > floor in front of the printer, rather than placing them gently on  > the floor.  F I worked at a plant that ate RA81s at an impressive rate, even for 81sF :( At lunch one day, due to lack of seats I ended up sharing the table? with and engineer from some distant parts, and in the course ofSC chatting he mentioned that they lost an 81 every 2 weeks or so frombH ground transmitted vibration. The stucj the rack on pneumatic isolators,' and 10 months later it was still happy!   B I thought about the gut twisting rumble that came up from the railE line next to the computer room... Test soon showed that the vibration 1 was WAY over the limits. So the line had to go...e  C A week later I went past and there was a HUGE rockbreaker excavatorSD ripping out the track and concrete foundations. And about 20 drives.     -- :< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.i@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:37:49 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>$$ Subject: Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS0 Message-ID: <111nn2flffskb16@corp.supernews.com>   Rich Alderson wrote:9 > "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:1 >  > G >>how about the time we were having ra81's die at a rate of about one a3H >>month.  come to find out they were in the datacenter about 3 feet awayJ >>from the printers - every night the operator would come in to reload theJ >>printers and of course just "drop" the paper boxes on the floor in front? >>of the printer, rather than placing them gently on the floor.w >  > $ > That operator was blamed unfairly!  B I wouldn't think so.  Yes, the RA81s had some problems.  But such E activity is possibly bad for all electronic equipment, and should be pH avoided.  If an operator cannot learn and follow directions, then blame  is appropriate.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:03:14 -0600_/ From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com> $ Subject: Re: Shark Tank mentions VMS2 Message-ID: <421C0082.5060405@applied-synergy.com>   Rich Alderson wrote:9 > "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes:c >  > G >>how about the time we were having ra81's die at a rate of about one awH >>month.  come to find out they were in the datacenter about 3 feet awayJ >>from the printers - every night the operator would come in to reload theJ >>printers and of course just "drop" the paper boxes on the floor in front? >>of the printer, rather than placing them gently on the floor.2 >  > $ > That operator was blamed unfairly! > Q > RA81s died regularly in our DEC-20 shop[1] as well--MTBF was about 6 months andcN > we had 6 of 'em, so we replaced an HDA about once a month.  They were just a > bad product. > O > The printers were more than 60 feet away from the disks, two rooms over, withsO > good isolation of the flooring, so dropping a box of paper couldn't have beena+ > the reason for these crashes at our site.  > N > [1] 4-system MSCP cluster:  Two HSC-50s, 3 2065s, 1 SC-30M, and two racks of' >     RA81s.  Stanford LOTS, 1986-1991.c  H Early RA81s had a problem.  Supposedly, the glue used to hold the heads I to the arms would deteriorate and, eventually, the heads fell off.  This :& resulted in quite an impressive crash.  H This was eventually fixed and we had all of our RA81s (even the working  ones) replaced._   -- eG -----------------------------------------------------------------------n$ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:45:38 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>.$ Subject: Re: Shark Tank mentions VMSB Message-ID: <1109133175.f26cf143219cb18801230cede20fbf84@teranews>   Chris Scheers wrote:I > Early RA81s had a problem.  Supposedly, the glue used to hold the headsSJ > to the arms would deteriorate and, eventually, the heads fell off.  This( > resulted in quite an impressive crash.  ; RA82s also "developped " a similar flaw in the early 1990s._  H In terms of the box of paper falling on the floor, when you consider theE total weight of an RA cabinet filled with 3 of the RA beasts, the boxnA wouldn't make that much of a big bump relative to the total mass.b  H Remember that it normally took 2 men to move one RA drive because it was so big and heavy.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:46:30 -0500c# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>u% Subject: There goes the profit center9, Message-ID: <gaidnYILKp2FEYbfRVn-sg@igs.net>  L http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/nm/20050222/tc_n m/tech_hp_printers_dci    1 Lawsuit Says HP Printer Cartridges Die Before Use5    D LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co.E (NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers are_H secretly programmed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering9 them useless before they are even installed in a printer.:  H The suit filed in Santa Clara Superior Court in northern California lastK Thursday seeks to represent anyone in the United States who purchased an HPSH inkjet printer since Feb. 2001. HP is the world's No. 1 computer printer maker.  7 HP spokesmen were not immediately available to comment.   I HP ink cartridges use a chip technology to sense when they are low on inkcL and advise the user to make a change. But, the suit claims, those chips alsoK shut down the cartridges at a predetermined date regardless of whether theya
 are empty.  J "The smart chip is dually engineered to prematurely register ink depletionK and to render a cartridge unusable through the use of a built-in expirationt: date that is not revealed to the consumer," the suit said.  L The suit, which seeks class-action status, asks for restitution, damages and other compensation.c   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:28:16 -0500m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>v) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center B Message-ID: <1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews>   John Smith wrote:hF > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co.G > (NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers are J > secretly programmed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering; > them useless before they are even installed in a printer.i  M Because of lack of VMS marketing by HP, I bought an EPSON printer for my mac.   C However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonder about thisrG story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So they coudl not have , a clock either. Do HP printers have clocks ?  > Without a clock, how could a chip decide that it has expired ?  H The only explanation I could find is if HP has a chip built with certainG chemicals that break down with time, rendering the electronics useless.aP This would limit the number of times you can refill the chip in the grey market.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:08:23 GMT-" From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center10 Message-ID: <00A3FC78.D0D5802E@SendSpamHere.ORG>  R In article <gaidnYILKp2FEYbfRVn-sg@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >bM >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/nm/20050222/tc_ne >m/tech_hp_printers_dc >- > 2 >Lawsuit Says HP Printer Cartridges Die Before Use >  > E >LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co.eF >(NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers areI >secretly programmed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering(: >them useless before they are even installed in a printer. >tI >The suit filed in Santa Clara Superior Court in northern California lastrL >Thursday seeks to represent anyone in the United States who purchased an HPI >inkjet printer since Feb. 2001. HP is the world's No. 1 computer printere >maker.t >o8 >HP spokesmen were not immediately available to comment. > J >HP ink cartridges use a chip technology to sense when they are low on inkM >and advise the user to make a change. But, the suit claims, those chips also L >shut down the cartridges at a predetermined date regardless of whether they >are empty.- >-K >"The smart chip is dually engineered to prematurely register ink depletionpL >and to render a cartridge unusable through the use of a built-in expiration; >date that is not revealed to the consumer," the suit said.1 >0M >The suit, which seeks class-action status, asks for restitution, damages and  >other compensation. >r >-- . >OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.  G FWIW, someone told me this several months back and I looked at him likepG the next thing he was going to tell me was that he was also abducted bye	 aliens.  o   -- TK VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            a5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:40:32 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>-) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centert, Message-ID: <qfOdnS9dRvBfBYbfRVn-hg@igs.net>   Malcolm Dunnett wrote:D > In article <1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews>,4 >    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >>F >> However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonder about thisE >> story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So they coudl notr4 >> have a clock either. Do HP printers have clocks ? >>H >    Doesn't have to be true, she just has to convince a jury it's true. >>F >    This jury will likely be composed of the same kind of people thatA > bought into all the Y2K hoopla ( remember cars weren't going to F > start, microwave ovens weren't going to cook, planes would fall from > the sky, etc ).d    L A few years back it cost Toshiba about $2.1B in an anti-trust action broughtJ in Texas for flaky floppy disk controller chips. Most of the time, on most? computers, everything was ok, but when it wasn't ok, it wasn't.   J Toshiba had lots of notice from consumers about the matter and even had it@ all figured out but chose not to do anything about it. Hence theL class-action suit as a way of getting their attention.  Ditto for HP in this case, I'd guess.  J If it turns out to be true and costs HP shareholders several billion, thenK it will have been gross negligence on the part of HP management because theeG number of consumers actually affected by the issue is very likely to behG quite small and would probably only have affected a few million dollars : worth of ink cartridges that people kept on their shelves.  K That said, I wonder why it is that an ink cartridge impregnibly sealed in a0J laminated foil/plastic pouch which is placed inside a protective cardboardL box usually has an expiry date of only 1 year hence even when purchased from7 retailers with high turnover (Staples, Costco, etc...)?r   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:58:36 GMTo% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> ) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centern; Message-ID: <02NSd.2894$DW.1545@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>v  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message -< news:1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews... > John Smith wrote:nG >> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co. H >> (NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers areK >> secretly programmed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering < >> them useless before they are even installed in a printer. >oK > Because of lack of VMS marketing by HP, I bought an EPSON printer for my o > mac. > E > However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonder about thistI > story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So they coudl not havec. > a clock either. Do HP printers have clocks ? >c@ > Without a clock, how could a chip decide that it has expired ? > J > The only explanation I could find is if HP has a chip built with certainI > chemicals that break down with time, rendering the electronics useless.eK > This would limit the number of times you can refill the chip in the grey :	 > market.w  M I believe that this story is true.  And I can think of a number of ways that  I it could work.  The cartridge doesn't need a clock, it just needs a drop aK dead date.  The printer checks to see if the current date is past the drop lL dead date.  The printer could get the current date from the computer or, it  could have a clock chip.  t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:49:59 GMTo+ From: "Anthony Borla" <ajborla@bigpond.com>s) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centero? Message-ID: <bONSd.171550$K7.105338@news-server.bigpond.net.au>d  > "Malcolm Dunnett" <nothome@spammers.are.scum> wrote in message' news:$G6+P9LTc1ZB@malvm7.mala.bc.ca....uD > In article <1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews>,4 >    JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > > < > > However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonderB > > about this story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So; > > they coudl not have a clock either. Do HP printers haveB > > clocks ? > >rH >    Doesn't have to be true, she just has to convince a jury it's true. >/> > This jury will likely be composed of the same kind of people= > that bought into all the Y2K hoopla ( remember cars weren't ? > going to start, microwave ovens weren't going to cook, planes ! > would fall from the sky, etc ).d >i  K Like so many CEO's, CFO's, and CIO's of many organisations around the worldrL ;) ? Sadly, it was the collective shareholders that footed the bill for that "necessary" expenditure.   Cheers,   
 Anthony Borla    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:03:57 -0800l* From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com>) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center 2 Message-ID: <w6mdnYxXeaPgS4bfRVn-uQ@mpowercom.net>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message u< news:1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews...E > However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonder about this I > story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So they coudl not have . > a clock either. Do HP printers have clocks ? >N@ > Without a clock, how could a chip decide that it has expired ? > I All a cartridge needs is memory.  Dallas Semi builds serial non-volatile c8 EEPROM chips for things like this, at very cheap prices.  J There is an electrical contact between cartridge and printer, which means M the embedded processor in the printer can save data in the cartridge memory. >L Expiration can be based on power on hours, rather than calendar clock.   It G would be a simple matter to have the printer periodically update a POH l counter in the cartridge.-  G Anything with an embedded processor has a clock, but not necessarily a .M real-time clock calendar.  A printer doesn't need to know the calendar date,  I just how long it's been turned on with a particular cartridge installed. tM Non-volatile semi memory doesn't require batteries either; there are several P; memory technologies that retain contents when powered down.g  M In technical terms there is nothing to stop HP from building in a time limit kH on cartridges.  I don't know if they actually do that.  I suppose we'll J learn from the lawsuit if that's what's going on.  If HP settles to avoid 5 discovery that's tantamount to an admission of guilt.n   Jack Peacock o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:11:40 -0500e' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerB0 Message-ID: <111np2064aptsb6@corp.supernews.com>   Jack Peacock wrote: = > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message e> > news:1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews... > E >>However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonder about this(I >>story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So they coudl not havef. >>a clock either. Do HP printers have clocks ? >>@ >>Without a clock, how could a chip decide that it has expired ? >> > K > All a cartridge needs is memory.  Dallas Semi builds serial non-volatile n: > EEPROM chips for things like this, at very cheap prices. > L > There is an electrical contact between cartridge and printer, which means O > the embedded processor in the printer can save data in the cartridge memory. 1N > Expiration can be based on power on hours, rather than calendar clock.   It I > would be a simple matter to have the printer periodically update a POH 1 > counter in the cartridge.  > I > Anything with an embedded processor has a clock, but not necessarily a eO > real-time clock calendar.  A printer doesn't need to know the calendar date,  K > just how long it's been turned on with a particular cartridge installed. sO > Non-volatile semi memory doesn't require batteries either; there are several C= > memory technologies that retain contents when powered down.i > O > In technical terms there is nothing to stop HP from building in a time limit  J > on cartridges.  I don't know if they actually do that.  I suppose we'll L > learn from the lawsuit if that's what's going on.  If HP settles to avoid 7 > discovery that's tantamount to an admission of guilt.y >   Jack Peacock s >  >   I What's really burning my ass right now is the HP722C I have.  Didn't use  I it for more than a year, then I couldn't get it to work.  Even got a new dH B&W cartridge, but the color cartrige was hardly used.  Like the guy in " the movis said, "I want some ass!"   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:01:17 -0600 / From: Chris Scheers <chris@applied-synergy.com>l) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centert2 Message-ID: <421C000D.5020305@applied-synergy.com>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:T > In article <gaidnYILKp2FEYbfRVn-sg@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > N >>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/nm/20050222/tc_n >>m/tech_hp_printers_dcA >> >>3 >>Lawsuit Says HP Printer Cartridges Die Before Useo >> >>F >>LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co.G >>(NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers arePJ >>secretly programmed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering; >>them useless before they are even installed in a printer.b >>J >>The suit filed in Santa Clara Superior Court in northern California lastM >>Thursday seeks to represent anyone in the United States who purchased an HPSJ >>inkjet printer since Feb. 2001. HP is the world's No. 1 computer printer >>maker. >>9 >>HP spokesmen were not immediately available to comment.r >>K >>HP ink cartridges use a chip technology to sense when they are low on ink N >>and advise the user to make a change. But, the suit claims, those chips alsoM >>shut down the cartridges at a predetermined date regardless of whether they  >>are empty. >>L >>"The smart chip is dually engineered to prematurely register ink depletionM >>and to render a cartridge unusable through the use of a built-in expirationi< >>date that is not revealed to the consumer," the suit said. >>N >>The suit, which seeks class-action status, asks for restitution, damages and >>other compensation.  >> >>--/ >>OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.s >  > I > FWIW, someone told me this several months back and I looked at him likeCI > the next thing he was going to tell me was that he was also abducted byc > aliens.  s  C I first heard this about a year ago.  It seems that some corporate  E buyers got a price break buying ink cartridges by the case, but when nG they got to a certain point, the new, unused cartridges would not work.   G I have also heard (but have not confirmed), that there is a pin on the DF cartridge that can be cut to disable this.  But this dodge only works C with certain models of printers that can accept undated cartridges.e  F The printer doesn't have a clock, but the PC software does.  The vast D majority of the "smarts" for most HP DeskJet printers is in the the  Windows print driver.n   -- rG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- $ Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.  B Voice: 817-237-3360            Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com    Fax: 817-237-3074   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 22:45:29 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)m) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centera3 Message-ID: <VOOlSbWqg7P2@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  R In article <qfOdnS9dRvBfBYbfRVn-hg@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote:   > M > That said, I wonder why it is that an ink cartridge impregnibly sealed in aoL > laminated foil/plastic pouch which is placed inside a protective cardboardN > box usually has an expiry date of only 1 year hence even when purchased from9 > retailers with high turnover (Staples, Costco, etc...)?s >   ? 	Same reason triple sealed tylenol and what not have expirationrF 	dates.  Conspiracy.  They want you to have doubts about effectiveness? 	and throw them out and buy more.  Al Qaeda and Putin again arei
 	involved!   				Robe   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Feb 2005 22:43:41 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)<) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerC3 Message-ID: <BXvNr8lJzqtr@eisner.encompasserve.org>N  r In article <1109103352.4842cee92713f0f1b9e024f705bed932@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > John Smith wrote:cG >> LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co.fH >> (NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers areK >> secretly programmed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering < >> them useless before they are even installed in a printer. > O > Because of lack of VMS marketing by HP, I bought an EPSON printer for my mac.y > E > However, whihc I have no loyalty to HP, I have to wonder about thiscI > story. Cartridges do not have batteries, right ? So they coudl not have0. > a clock either. Do HP printers have clocks ? > @ > Without a clock, how could a chip decide that it has expired ? >   6 	NTP.  I have it on good authority that they work with< 	Russian NTP servers.  The conspiracy here of course is that= 	Al Qaeda is behind it in conjunction with Putin and remnantsr> 	of the KGB that are still very pissed off.  Idea is to damageA 	America corporations one at a time, a domino effect if you will.-   				Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:32:06 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>aK Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customersh, Message-ID: <bIidnXj5tOIlFYbfRVn-uA@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote: 5 > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:20:33 +0100, Keith Cayembergn# > <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> wrote:  >d >> Bill Todd wrote:  >>> Kenneth Farmer wrote: 	 >>>  ....s >>>p< >>>> Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press.C >>>   Actually, that's not true:  at least some of us wanted to see G >>> *HP* be a lot more active in promoting and supporting VMS - both asd? >>> an act of good faith and as a clear indication of long-term- >>> 'commitment'.  >>H >> The two actions are not mutually exclusive. As I already mentioned inB >> another posting, none of us are stopping HP from professionally6 >> marketing the OpenVMS platform to a wider audience. >>C >>> In the presence of such action from HP, customer support in therD >>> press would be a good thing.  In the absence of such action fromF >>> HP, customer support in the press would be more apt to obscure theF >>> very real concerns any new customers should have about its owner'sG >>> intentions - a rather selfish act by those already committed to VMS:B >>> to try to expand interest in the product (in the hope that itsG >>> owner would *finally* show some itself) regardless of the risk theyt, >>> might be exposing others to by doing so. >>>  - billt >>G >> I haven't read that any of the interviewed customers made any claimse= >> or promises regarding HP's commitment yet. The interviewedtB >> customers, who have correctly identified themselves as such (noE >> hidden agendas), appear to generally be giving balanced (some evenoG >> pointing out some disadvantages) but mostly favorable opinions whicheD >> they are entitled to. OpenVMS has so many excellent qualities andG >> advantages that we don't need to worry about being open to criticismcE >> (most of which is anyways not of a technical nature). This honesty C >> is to be encouraged, and also to be expected from the journalist-G >> writing the article as well. We believe the OpenVMS platform and itsoG >> associated technologies deserve as big a lobby as it's customers areeB >> willing to support! Nobody is being dishonest in promoting "theD >> technology they are also using", the converse would be dishonest.C >> There is nothing selfish of these customers wanting to share thekB >> secret of their stable, scalable, reliable, available, disaster9 >> tolerant and ingeniously sophisticated infrastructure.a >>G >> As to HP's true commitment to OpenVMS, it is expected of each reader F >> (as always) to bring their own healthy critical thinking and decideD >> for themselves what the risk is. Nobody is trying to fool anybodyA >> here. The best guarantee of OpenVMS commitment by HP is market A >> success. All the technological components for that success areaC >> already there, providing the knowledge of their existence and aneF >> understanding of their usefulness to a wider audience will do a lotE >> to solve the non-technical deficiencies so often discussed in thisp >> news-group. > G > Keith, what I find baffling is HP's cavalier, benign neglect.  Fiscal @ > 2004 was almost identical YOY to Fiscal 2003 turning in $4,000G > Million in sales and gross profit of $867 Million, which is about 20%  > gross margin, second onlyeG > to printers, I guess  (which market Dell is of course busily munchingiD > on) Why doesn't this not stand out to management?  Why is this not; > fiduciary dereliction?  What am I missing or fail to see?i    = To paraphrase.....There you go again, thinking logically. :-)    --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:01:42 +0100-0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersmB Message-ID: <421b9db7$0$24937$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>   Bill Todd wrote:   > Keith Cayemberg wrote: >  >> Bill Todd wrote:  >> >>> Kenneth Farmer wrote:- >>>- >>> .... >>> < >>>> Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press. >>>f >>>  >>>j >>>RJ >>> Actually, that's not true:  at least some of us wanted to see *HP* be J >>> a lot more active in promoting and supporting VMS - both as an act of C >>> good faith and as a clear indication of long-term 'commitment'.4 >> >> >>. >> The two actions are not mutually exclusive. >  > K > And I did not say they were:  I simply observed that Ken's statement was v > not true.a > H And I never said you did. I simply observed that that one can want both G or either action without conflicting with the other or being illogical n	 or wrong.F  H If you want to fault Ken's use of word "everyone" then I would  say you I are right in a literal sense, but (in my opinion naturally) you're wrong sH being much too literal in this context. It is a fact of life that there G is always "something" wrong or imperfect with everything. An essential eC skill in the art of living is knowing where it is sensible to make   corrections.  G Ken could probably have then used the words "most participants of this hH newsgroup" without exaggerating, or "many" to be on the safe side. This E all still doesn't mean that Ken had forgotten you and others have an cH agenda concerning HP's promotional activities, or that his statement in E any way precludes your agenda. Demanding that he always mention your -B agenda in any context which may allow it, (to be balanced in your I opinion) would also be a transgression against his right to free thought -H and expression. Of course, I'm not saying you demand this, or some form ( of this, only that it wouldn't be right.   > .... > J >>> In the presence of such action from HP, customer support in the press C >>> would be a good thing.  In the absence of such action from HP, oH >>> customer support in the press would be more apt to obscure the very B >>> real concerns any new customers should have about its owner's H >>> intentions - a rather selfish act by those already committed to VMS I >>> to try to expand interest in the product (in the hope that its owner lH >>> would *finally* show some itself) regardless of the risk they might & >>> be exposing others to by doing so. >>>n
 >>> - bill >> >> >>H >> I haven't read that any of the interviewed customers made any claims - >> or promises regarding HP's commitment yet.g >  >  > That was not my point. >  No, it was my point.  ! >  The interviewed customers, whom > E >> have correctly identified themselves as such (no hidden agendas),  G >> appear to generally be giving balanced (some even pointing out some 0L >> disadvantages) but mostly favorable opinions which they are entitled to.  >  > E > If the opinions did not include reference to HP's distinct lack of  I > interest in the product, they did not qualify as 'balanced' - any more sB > than concentrating only on that point without also noting VMS's  > strengths would. > F I don't see where I or any of us have any control over the customer's  opinion.  H The customers are free to say whatever they wish to say, were promoting F only that they say it. We "assume" from out knowledge of OpenVMS that I the customers participating are favorable to the use of OpenVMS in their aD company, but we don't know this, can't police it, and we can't read H their minds. Promotion of OpenVMS is our intent (and right), but not by G the intentional use of disinformation or misleading selectivity of the eG facts. There are also never any guarantees of completeness. That would eE logically first require that one knows everything about the subject, hH such as each of HP's principal's intentions today and in the future. It D is certainly possible to be balanced within your experience without C being complete. In fact, completeness would require each and every 0I possible opinion within reason. Besides, probably being unknowable, this aG would certainly be more than the space given to the journalist for the iC article, although each and every one of those opinions could be of  F singular importance to some customer. We should remain with realistic C and fair expectations of what this campaign should be trying to do.o   > .... >  >  Nobody is being > D >> dishonest in promoting "the technology they are also using", the  >> converse would be dishonest.a >  > F > You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the concept of honesty: C You don't know me at all, so I don't see where you can make such a .F personal judgment. If you did really know me, I'm sure you'd choke on F those words. You will notice that I never make any personal judgments ? about someone's character in an open forum, whether or not I'm h? personally acquainted with them. Judgments and opinions of the  G appropriateness of their public actions is fair, and totally different   subject.  I > depending on one's definition providing information selectively may or iJ > may not qualify as being somewhat dishonest, but in no event does one's F > *choice* of information affect that assessment when the information D > being conveyed has comparable importance to the information being 
 > suppressed. H I don't see where I'm being selective about the information provided in E any meaningful way. Even if I had any intention of selecting what is  B provided, I don't have any means what-so-ever to enforce, select, I manipulate or censor what the customers tell the journalist, or what the g journalist writes.   > I > Of course, since I in no way suggested that anyone was being dishonest,tH Please re-read what you wrote above. Or are you splitting terms between I "dishonest", "less than honest", "mostly but not quite fully honest". As vC I've already explained I have nothing against your agenda. I would iG really welcome customers to express their uncertainty about this if it eF is what they think or feel. But you and I can't demand that they feel H this, or express it whether or not they actually do. It's still "mostly"E a free world, and we don't have a functioning "Thought Police", yet.  C Which all doesn't mean that I wish it were so, or that you said it  
 should be so.o  J > I'm not sure what your point would have been even if its exposition had  > been better formed.n > . >  There is nothing selfish of these customers > D >> wanting to share the secret of their stable, scalable, reliable, > >> available, disaster tolerant and ingeniously sophisticated  >> infrastructure. >  > F > Yes, there is - if the intent is to try to make VMS more popular by I How do you want to know their (the customers) intent with any certainty, ,3 especially before they have actually done anything. F > emphasizing its strengths while remaining quiet about its potential  > risks A Nobody I know is doing this, I haven't experienced any customers FH intentionally doing this. They may have a different opinion than you do E about the importance of the risk. And even if they were doing it, we B3 wouldn't have any right to determine what they say.1  > (and it sounds as if this is *precisely* the intent, and quiteD What *precisely* "sounds" as if there is an intent to intentionally C cover up relevant negative information? Is the word "promotion" or wI another positive sounding word bothering you? Who has control of what is bI said outside of the customer and the journalist? Who has the right to in l0 any way determine what opinion the customer has?  H > clearly the behavior being demonstrated even if one wishes to quibble # > about its underlying motivation).aD I have no intention to quibble about underlying motivations either. D Everyone has the chance add their opinions in this forum or others. @ Everyone has to decide what they think the true motivations are B themselves. Extrapolating true motivations from behavior is never E absolutely clear, and one should always be skeptical at first, which yH should include not coming to any quick conclusion of the behavior which E you say is being clearly demonstrated. But, which I call merely your s interpretation of the facts.   >  >>H >> As to HP's true commitment to OpenVMS, it is expected of each reader G >> (as always) to bring their own healthy critical thinking and decide nJ >> for themselves what the risk is. Nobody is trying to fool anybody here. >  > H > Sounds like the kind of bullshit rationalization that many marketeers H It's not a rationalization, it's a simple recognition of facts that you G or I have no power to change. Everyone must decide for themselves what nH they believe, and what risks they take, every minute of the day. Anyone F who wants to be successful in life must learn to think critically but G realistically about what agendas and mechanisms are behind any opinion eD or action. None of us have been proved to read minds yet, or have a A correctly functioning crystal ball. What one trusts is a totally  H personal decision and responsibility. The natural retribution harvested C by those who practice to deceive is a totally different theme, but rF should ideally not hit innocent bystanders, such as the customers who D depend on or need OpenVMS capabilities but may not even be aware of G them; or for instance, OpenVMS engineers who are honestly providing an -H exceptional product without their due recognition in the form of market  success.J > employ (at least those who have retained at least some marginal if only + > theoretical acquaintance with integrity).- >  >  The > @ >> best guarantee of OpenVMS commitment by HP is market success. >  > 8 > Exactly the mind-set that I suggested was behind this.F It's not a mind-set. It is an economically definable fact, within the D context OpenVMS is now in. Certainly the extreme converse situation G would not be long sustainable for HP, as a publicly offered and shared f competitive entity.u   > 
 >  All the > J >> technological components for that success are already there, providing B >> the knowledge of their existence and an understanding of their = >> usefulness to a wider audience will do a lot to solve the  D >> non-technical deficiencies so often discussed in this news-group. >  > C > In your opinion.  But *even if that opinion is valid* (itself an eI Thanks for agreeing it's my opinion, I think it should be obvious to all  G readers that what I write as my opinion, is intended to be my opinion. uF And certainly it is "my valid opinion", at least I'm the only one who F has the right to decide that it is. It is understood that each reader I has the right to decide whether they think it is correct. I may never be tH told what they think, but I sincerely hope they will find me convincing B enough to dig deeper on their own, and form their own independent 4 opinion, based on their own experience and learning.J > eminently debatable point), you seem to feel free to try to suck others K > into committing their businesses to VMS to further your own ends in this tF I suppose this is your opinion. I don't see where I've done this, but   you're entitled to your opinion.  : > area without mentioning the accompanying potential risk.E I have no duty to fight for your agenda which may or may not even be cI known to me, or accepted by me. I have so far not said one world against lB your agenda. In fact I'm all for HP providing honest professional G advertising for OpenVMS. To me it appears HP is a mother trying not to gD play favorites with any of her children, but failing to promote her H prodigy in doing so. I have also not made any statement about the level D of risk with regard to HP's continued support of OpenVMS, basicly I I don't pretend to know the future here, and I would prefer others to make nG up their own minds without my input. I'm certainly not in any position pE to make any guarantees one way or the other. This uncertainty exists -B with any product no matter how successful it is today, to believe F differently is to not be thinking critically about the possibilities. E That being said, I have intensively studied the OpenVMS market since  E 1997, I don't see OpenVMS disappearing "any time soon". It's just my HC opinion, and I'm not infallible, and I think everyone reading this fH understands this intuitively without my having to hold up a big warning  sign.e >  > .... > G >> So, if you think about it. We may have many of the same goals, just   >> slightly different means. >  >  > And very different ethics.@ I think my ethics here are impeccable. Seeing as I work for the H *competition*, I'm certainly not earning any points with my employer by H promoting OpenVMS. In fact I'm taking considerable risks myself. Making E a judgment on my ethics based on my actions thus far is being rather IF quick to judge. I don't think you know me or have any basis to make a E judgment of my motivations or intentions. I'm a rather complex human tI being with a lot of history and intensely carefully considered views and -I principles. If you wanted to be at all fair about judging me, you should nG be a little more careful about branding me with such simple base terms.-  F Those who would like to designate me an "OpenVMS Bigot" would also be G totally missing where I'm coming from, and why OpenVMS is important to eG me. It's a gross over-simplification, but you will get a glimpse of my pC reasoning, if you first understand that the advancement of art and UD science of computer science (informatics) and improving its correct I reliance on engineering principals and correctly engineered solutions is nH much more important to me than OpenVMS or Rdb as such. If someone would H come up with something better for the enterprise problem space it would H certainly have my full support. I'm a technologist, and I'm not greatly A interested in non-technical arguments, but I am motivated to act rG "positively" to promote the preservation of a technology that industry mH would probably not even have the will to duplicate or improve on in the E foreseeable future, especially considering the comparable success of nB overtly inferior products. I am honestly convinced of the OpenVMS H advantages for customers which I have on several occasions attempted to H describe with arguments that can be argued and with references that can D be checked. I am definitely not employing dishonest, half-honest or  unethical means in doing so.   >  > - bill   Cheers!x   Keith Cayembergt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:37:12 -0500e( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customerse= Message-ID: <U8CdnXzgOdzXQ4bfRVn-rQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    Keith Cayemberg wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >  >> Keith Cayemberg wrote:a >> >>> Bill Todd wrote: >>>e >>>> Kenneth Farmer wrote: >>>>	 >>>> ....  >>>>= >>>>> Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press.  >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>H >>>> Actually, that's not true:  at least some of us wanted to see *HP* G >>>> be a lot more active in promoting and supporting VMS - both as an eK >>>> act of good faith and as a clear indication of long-term 'commitment'.a >>>  >>>t >>>t >>> / >>> The two actions are not mutually exclusive.b >> >> >>H >> And I did not say they were:  I simply observed that Ken's statement  >> was not true. >> > And I never said you did.b  G When you place your response immediately after a statement (as you did  I above), the clear implication is that it supposedly bears in some way on tF that statement.  Otherwise you presumably would, and arguably should, G have placed it elsewhere where it was actually relevant, or introduced tD it with some phrase indicating that it was a digression rather than C something resembling, in both placement and sentence structure, an k# attempt at some kind of refutation.o  /   I simply observed that that one can want bothgI > or either action without conflicting with the other or being illogical o > or wrong., > J > If you want to fault Ken's use of word "everyone" then I would  say you K > are right in a literal sense, but (in my opinion naturally) you're wrong s) > being much too literal in this context.l  > My, your use of English must be far more liberal than my own. J "Everyone" is not a word whose meaning I consider to be very fuzzy at all.  !   It is a fact of life that there I > is always "something" wrong or imperfect with everything. An essential rE > skill in the art of living is knowing where it is sensible to make t > corrections.  ? I'm afraid that I take some offense at having my own attitudes cF misrepresented, and consider correcting such misrepresentations to be  eminently 'sensible'.i   > I > Ken could probably have then used the words "most participants of this  D > newsgroup" without exaggerating, or "many" to be on the safe side.  G The latter would have been beyond any reasonable reproach.  The former cH would have been a bit presumptuous, but at least debatable.  "Everyone"  was clearly over the line.     ThisG > all still doesn't mean that Ken had forgotten you and others have an jJ > agenda concerning HP's promotional activities, or that his statement in   > any way precludes your agenda.   Totally irrelevant.e  '   Demanding that he always mention your3D > agenda in any context which may allow it, (to be balanced in your K > opinion) would also be a transgression against his right to free thought >J > and expression.  Of course, I'm not saying you demand this, or some form* > of this, only that it wouldn't be right.  I So, since indeed I made no suggestion whatsoever to that effect, exactly i% what is your point in bringing it up?V  F That's two utterly irrelevant points in a row in this one post.  Your = analytical discipline appears to need considerable polishing.t   >  >> ....r >>E >>>> In the presence of such action from HP, customer support in the hJ >>>> press would be a good thing.  In the absence of such action from HP, I >>>> customer support in the press would be more apt to obscure the very PC >>>> real concerns any new customers should have about its owner's ,I >>>> intentions - a rather selfish act by those already committed to VMS sJ >>>> to try to expand interest in the product (in the hope that its owner I >>>> would *finally* show some itself) regardless of the risk they might h' >>>> be exposing others to by doing so.  >>>> >>>> - billd >>>. >>>  >>>e >>>cI >>> I haven't read that any of the interviewed customers made any claims o. >>> or promises regarding HP's commitment yet. >> >> >> >> That was not my point.- >> > No, it was my point.  G Again, to what end?  It certainly doesn't bear upon anything I said in oF the paragraph you chose to precede it with:  three irrelevancies in a  row, and counting.   > " >>  The interviewed customers, who >>F >>> have correctly identified themselves as such (no hidden agendas), H >>> appear to generally be giving balanced (some even pointing out some M >>> disadvantages) but mostly favorable opinions which they are entitled to. o >> >> >>F >> If the opinions did not include reference to HP's distinct lack of J >> interest in the product, they did not qualify as 'balanced' - any more C >> than concentrating only on that point without also noting VMS's   >> strengths would.  >>H > I don't see where I or any of us have any control over the customer's 
 > opinion.  G You were the one who chose to characterize the opinions as 'balanced', nG and that characterization was what my comment addressed.  The question fI of 'control' is yet another completely irrelevant issue - 4 in a row now.g   > J > The customers are free to say whatever they wish to say, were promoting H > only that they say it. We "assume" from out knowledge of OpenVMS that K > the customers participating are favorable to the use of OpenVMS in their 0F > company, but we don't know this, can't police it, and we can't read J > their minds. Promotion of OpenVMS is our intent (and right), but not by I > the intentional use of disinformation or misleading selectivity of the 5I > facts. There are also never any guarantees of completeness. That would lG > logically first require that one knows everything about the subject, vJ > such as each of HP's principal's intentions today and in the future. It F > is certainly possible to be balanced within your experience without E > being complete. In fact, completeness would require each and every sK > possible opinion within reason. Besides, probably being unknowable, this eI > would certainly be more than the space given to the journalist for the eE > article, although each and every one of those opinions could be of dH > singular importance to some customer. We should remain with realistic E > and fair expectations of what this campaign should be trying to do.a  F You really, really don't get it at all.  Before wasting any more time C responding, it would probably be better if you tried to - and kept e trying until you succeeded.    >  >> ....e >> >>  Nobody is beingn >>E >>> dishonest in promoting "the technology they are also using", the e  >>> converse would be dishonest. >> >> >>G >> You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the concept of honesty: e > E > You don't know me at all, so I don't see where you can make such a   > personal judgment.  G If you'll parse my statement a bit more carefully, you'll observe that rD it simply describes my impression based on the specific information I available.  I (and indeed most people) form impressions constantly based -H on comparably incomplete information (and I myself usually qualify them H accordingly, as I did here), and I'm always ready to adjust them should G additional relevant information come in (so far, in this specific area k
 none has).  4   If you did really know me, I'm sure you'd choke onH > those words. You will notice that I never make any personal judgments A > about someone's character in an open forum, whether or not I'm iA > personally acquainted with them. Judgments and opinions of the lI > appropriateness of their public actions is fair, and totally different  
 > subject.  E When someone presumes to offer up opinions about the honesty or lack  E thereof of certain actions, I have no qualms whatsoever about making rG observations about his apparent grasp (or lack thereof) of the concept n he's bandying about.   > J >> depending on one's definition providing information selectively may or E >> may not qualify as being somewhat dishonest, but in no event does ,A >> one's *choice* of information affect that assessment when the a? >> information being conveyed has comparable importance to the r  >> information being suppressed. > J > I don't see where I'm being selective about the information provided in  > any meaningful way.e  B Are you suggesting that you wouldn't consider failing to advise a A potential customer that the system you're touting is on somewhat dG precarious footing compared with many better-known alternatives 'being eA selective in any meaningful way'?  Or just denying that any such sG potential problems exist (though your statement "The best guarantee of dF OpenVMS commitment by HP is market success" would appear to recognize = that such 'commitment' is at present decidedly questionable)?v  H For indeed your earlier statement "this IS part of a grass roots effort F to promote OpenVMS to a wider audience" appears to qualify as active, 7 and in the absence of such cautions selective, touting.l   ...t  J >> Of course, since I in no way suggested that anyone was being dishonest, > & > Please re-read what you wrote above.  I Your time sense seems more than somewhat confused.  My observation above  B referred, naturally, to my previous post.  *After* you raised the 2 subject of dishonesty, I *then* commented upon it.  $   Or are you splitting terms betweenG > "dishonest", "less than honest", "mostly but not quite fully honest".F  C No, Keith:  if you'll reread what I wrote in my previous post with /B somewhat more care, you'll find that even in commenting upon your F dubious grasp of the concept of honesty I in no way accused anyone of  any lack thereof.      AsE > I've already explained I have nothing against your agenda. I would  I > really welcome customers to express their uncertainty about this if it > > is what they think or feel.n  I Good:  that would be the appropriate thing to do, regardless of how they  5 feel it might affect potential VMS market popularity.   > So can we expect to see this given equal prominence in future I exhortations to let the world know about VMS?  I'll have to confess that iC I'll believe that only when I see it:  the current effort far more eE resembles cheerleading (actually, even more, amateur marketing) than   broad objectivity.   ...h  / >>  There is nothing selfish of these customers> >>E >>> wanting to share the secret of their stable, scalable, reliable, o? >>> available, disaster tolerant and ingeniously sophisticated f >>> infrastructure.  >> >> >>G >> Yes, there is - if the intent is to try to make VMS more popular by iH [>> emphasizing its strengths while remaining quiet about its potential  risks] > K > How do you want to know their (the customers) intent with any certainty, h5 > especially before they have actually done anything.m  F If that is not the intent implied by your statement (once again) "The D best guarantee of OpenVMS commitment by HP is market success", then > please explain why one should not draw that inference from it.   ...   A >> (and it sounds as if this is *precisely* the intent, and quitehF > What *precisely* "sounds" as if there is an intent to intentionally ) > cover up relevant negative information?u  D There you go again.  What part of the difference between 'remaining I quiet about' (my words) and 'cover up' (your words) is difficult for you i to understand?   ...h   >>>bI >>> As to HP's true commitment to OpenVMS, it is expected of each reader pH >>> (as always) to bring their own healthy critical thinking and decide K >>> for themselves what the risk is. Nobody is trying to fool anybody here.s >> >> >>I >> Sounds like the kind of bullshit rationalization that many marketeers - >  > It's not a rationalization  D Yes, it is.  If people really were as diligent as you suggest, then F there would be absolutely no need for the kind of pro-active customer ! promotion that you're advocating.-  H What you're rationalizing is, once again, selective promotion of VMS to I achieve an end you consider desirable without anything resembling even a WI half-hearted attempt at more complete disclosure ("Oh, that part's up to nG the customer to discover" - right).  That is, in a word, selfish - and  H that, rather than anything involving honesty (though it does touch upon 3 ethics) is the word I've been using to describe it.d   ...    >>  Thee >>A >>> best guarantee of OpenVMS commitment by HP is market success.w >> >> >>9 >> Exactly the mind-set that I suggested was behind this.c > H > It's not a mind-set. It is an economically definable fact, within the  > context OpenVMS is now in.  H Care to explain in what precise respects this context differs from that I which obtained at Compaq?  You know:  the context in which a decision to -E mothball an eminently profitable product like VMS nearly occurred in pH mid-1999, after which said product got no attention whatsoever from its  owner?  G Your grasp of what constitutes 'fact' (as distinct from, in this case, 2E relatively uninformed opinion) is another which appears to be rather o tenuous.  *   Certainly the extreme converse situationI > would not be long sustainable for HP, as a publicly offered and shared l > competitive entity.e  I They've certainly been working arduously toward that end.  But there's a  G great deal of inertia in a company the size of HP, so they haven't yet iG succeeded in driving it completely into the ground (yes, they now have PF an opportunity to change course, but from their recent pronouncements * I'm not holding forth much hope for that).   >  >> >>  All ther >>A >>> technological components for that success are already there, hG >>> providing the knowledge of their existence and an understanding of eD >>> their usefulness to a wider audience will do a lot to solve the E >>> non-technical deficiencies so often discussed in this news-group.d >> >> >>D >> In your opinion.  But *even if that opinion is valid* (itself an  > K > Thanks for agreeing it's my opinion, I think it should be obvious to all nI > readers that what I write as my opinion, is intended to be my opinion. eH > And certainly it is "my valid opinion", at least I'm the only one who % > has the right to decide that it is.w  G A rather fine point.  In response, I'll ask whether you'd consider the gF opinion that pi is equal to 2 to constitute a 'valid opinion' (that's + the sense in which I was using the phrase).o   ...d  H >>> So, if you think about it. We may have many of the same goals, just  >>> slightly different means.o >> >> >> >> And very different ethics.t > ( > I think my ethics here are impeccable.  F Clearly. I, on the other hand, think they suck - though it's possible I that you're simply too dense to have been able to understand why someone cE might feel that way, and you really should attain that understanding lI (whether after doing so you agree with me or not) before continuing this f discussion.>   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:57:39 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customers 0 Message-ID: <111no7mneou9v72@corp.supernews.com>   Keith Cayemberg wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: <snip>  C I for one applaud your interest and participation in promoting VMS yD Keith.  It's something that I feel strongly about, and for the same E reasons you mentioned, good technology.  My perspective is that of a e' software developer, rather than a user.h  G I'm currently working on a windoz based application, (hey, it pays the hI mortgage), and every time I want to use the DLM for a lock, or a logical i! name, I'm a candidate for valium.e  D As for Bill, if he wants to point out the risks he sees, then go to G Ken's web site, www.OpenVMS.org, and sign up as one willing to talk to  A the trade press, and if contacted he can then present his agenda.h   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:06:24 -0600n2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customerso+ Message-ID: <421BF32F.3624E468@comcast.net>e   Tom Linden wrote:u > 6 > On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:38:13 -0600, David J Dachtera$ > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >  > > Tom Linden wrote:  > >>5 > >> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:35:10 GMT, Kenneth Farmer + > >> <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> wrote:n > >>D > >> > This isn't so much targeted at you Tom but everyone in cov... > >> >F > >> > Keith is right on target.  This is the result of several people > >> outside	 > >> > ofaH > >> > HP.  However several people inside HP are involved and are always > >> > willing to'M > >> > assist.  When it comes from the community (customer base) it obviously  > >> > carries more weight.c > >> >J > >> > Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press.  Well, some
 > >> > insider3 > >> > and outside have made sure that's happening.m > >> >I > >> > It's actually very simple. Email trade press writers and tell thema	 > >> theyrL > >> > should/need to write and article about VMS.  Tell them you can muster > >> the( > >> > community to provide quotes, etc. > >> >J > >> > The bad part is these writers are always on a tight schedule.  They > >> > usuallyI > >> > contact you days before the article needs to be written, hence the  > >> urgent = > >> > messages we've had to push out every couple of months.p > >> >H > >> > I'll tell you one way things could be made easier.  I can start a > >> list ofM > >> > people that are willing to talk to the press and their company is wills > >> > allowH > >> > it.  The volunteers can name certain areas of "specialty" such as > >> > disaster K > >> > tolerance, clustering, rdb, etc.  I can then post this list with theMM > >> > specialties (no names).  The list will target writers and tell them wea
 > >> > canM > >> > assemble the customers quickly so that they can be interviewed.  Soundj > >> > good? > >> >A > >> > Take a look at this page and let me know what you think...1 > >> >2 > >> > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Press > >>8 > >> Looks good.  I will send the link to our customers. > >>H > >> What flabbergasts me, is that (Now I'm beginning to sound like John > >> Smith)oL > >> is that because HP isn't willing/able to market the product in spite of > >> theK > >> fact that VMS contributed $867Million gross profit to fiscal 2004, thepG > >> loyalist/guerillas are trying to do it for them, without a budget!n > >>2 > >> Can't recall a similar situation in the past. > >eL > > Oh, COME now! You *MUST* have witnessed SOME situation SOMEwhere in yourK > > career where everything stagnated until people of leadership came along  > > and took the reins.. > I > But not from customers or people outside the company.  That is a first,i8 > but then I have only been in the business for 39 years   Really?"  G Who made "luggable" "personal" computers a practical reality? (Hint: Ito wasn't IBM.)  B Who put MS-DOS and later WhineBloze on "every" desktop in America? (Hint: It wasn't Micro$lop.)  H Who made Intel THE supplier of microprocessor chips to the world? (Hint: It wasn't Intel.)i  E Who made gasoline one of the more important commodities of the modernb1 world? (Hint: It wasn't the petroleum companies.)h   Need any more examples?a   -- n David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:h" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/a   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:11:26 -0600f2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customersc+ Message-ID: <421BF45E.AC530B3F@comcast.net>    Keith Cayemberg wrote: >  > Bill Todd wrote: > > Kenneth Farmer wrote:, > >> > > .... > >o< > >> Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press. > >n > > K > > Actually, that's not true:  at least some of us wanted to see *HP* be aeL > > lot more active in promoting and supporting VMS - both as an act of good> > > faith and as a clear indication of long-term 'commitment'. > G > The two actions are not mutually exclusive. As I already mentioned intA > another posting, none of us are stopping HP from professionallyt5 > marketing the OpenVMS platform to a wider audience.o  H One of my major points is: don't wait for hp to pick up the ball and runE with it - it ain't happ'nin'. Get over it. If it is to be, it's up to>> WE, and at an individual level, if it is to be, it's up to ME.   > F > PS - for those of you who have come a little later to the party. KenH > Farmer of the independent OpenVMS.ORG is providing several promotional/ > web pages for participating in this effort...e > ( > OpenVMS Trade Press Participation Page- > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Pressc >  > OpenVMS Taglines Pagee0 > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Taglines >  > OpenVMS Logos Page- > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Logoso >  > OpenVMS PearlsE > http://www.openvms.org/search.php?query=Pearl&what=stories&limit=50a > ! > OpenVMS Promotional Ideas Forumi, > http://www.openvms.org/phorum/list.php?f=7  H Thanx for those. I gotta look into those. I thought them worth repeating/ so the search engines would generate more hits.c   -- n David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:a" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/b   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:18:12 -0600w2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customerss+ Message-ID: <421BF5F4.7F815BF8@comcast.net>a   Tom Linden wrote:m > 5 > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:20:33 +0100, Keith Cayembergl# > <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> wrote:s >  > > Bill Todd wrote: > >> Kenneth Farmer wrote:
 > >>  .... > >>= > >>> Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press.mL > >>   Actually, that's not true:  at least some of us wanted to see *HP* beJ > >> a lot more active in promoting and supporting VMS - both as an act ofD > >> good faith and as a clear indication of long-term 'commitment'. > >hI > > The two actions are not mutually exclusive. As I already mentioned incC > > another posting, none of us are stopping HP from professionallyu7 > > marketing the OpenVMS platform to a wider audience.e > >aJ > >> In the presence of such action from HP, customer support in the pressL > >> would be a good thing.  In the absence of such action from HP, customerD > >> support in the press would be more apt to obscure the very realL > >> concerns any new customers should have about its owner's intentions - aJ > >> rather selfish act by those already committed to VMS to try to expandH > >> interest in the product (in the hope that its owner would *finally*K > >> show some itself) regardless of the risk they might be exposing otherso > >> to by doing so. > >>  - bill > >rK > > I haven't read that any of the interviewed customers made any claims or J > > promises regarding HP's commitment yet. The interviewed customers, whoL > > have correctly identified themselves as such (no hidden agendas), appear@ > > to generally be giving balanced (some even pointing out someL > > disadvantages) but mostly favorable opinions which they are entitled to.H > > OpenVMS has so many excellent qualities and advantages that we don'tI > > need to worry about being open to criticism (most of which is anyways J > > not of a technical nature). This honesty is to be encouraged, and alsoF > > to be expected from the journalist writing the article as well. WeK > > believe the OpenVMS platform and its associated technologies deserve aseI > > big a lobby as it's customers are willing to support! Nobody is beingdD > > dishonest in promoting "the technology they are also using", theL > > converse would be dishonest. There is nothing selfish of these customersD > > wanting to share the secret of their stable, scalable, reliable,> > > available, disaster tolerant and ingeniously sophisticated > > infrastructure.  > >nL > > As to HP's true commitment to OpenVMS, it is expected of each reader (asG > > always) to bring their own healthy critical thinking and decide for K > > themselves what the risk is. Nobody is trying to fool anybody here. TheoI > > best guarantee of OpenVMS commitment by HP is market success. All thesJ > > technological components for that success are already there, providingB > > the knowledge of their existence and an understanding of theirK > > usefulness to a wider audience will do a lot to solve the non-technical 7 > > deficiencies so often discussed in this news-group.u > L > Keith, what I find baffling is HP's cavalier, benign neglect.  Fiscal 2004L > was almost identical YOY to Fiscal 2003 turning in $4,000 Million in salesK > and gross profit of $867 Million, which is about 20% gross margin, secondt > onlyK > to printers, I guess  (which market Dell is of course busily munching on)rJ > Why doesn't this not stand out to management?  Why is this not fiduciary1 > dereliction?  What am I missing or fail to see??  H Well, hp as a company will set its own course. That course may or not be= in anyone's best interest, including their own or that of thes" investments of their stockholders.  D Step expecting hp to live up to expectations not their own. It ain't happ'nin'. Get over it.   E Let 'em live down to their own expectations. Let us hold ourselves to  the higher standard. t  > If hp chooses to follow our lead, fine. If not, then so be it.  G As it has been said: "Do SOMEthing! Either lead, follow or get the hellt out of the way!"   -- h David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsk http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:a" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:52:18 GMTn1 From: drwho8__NOTME__@att.net (The Eighth Doctor)a6 Subject: Re: VAXstation 3100: supported under VMS 7.3?F Message-ID: <CIOSd.67111$Th1.40021@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  @ In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dpSblwTSOUfh@dave2_os2.home.ours>,   djw-nothere@nospam.nohow says... >n? >On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:00:31 UTC, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry a >Kilgallen) wrote: >  ><Snip>t >eB >> The only people running systems as old as the ones you describeC >> are likely to be VMS hobbyists, who do not buy support contracts D >> anyway, so whether a given box is supported or not is immaterial. >> iI >> * If there is some customer who wants to buy lots of support contractseO >>   for a particular older system, I suppose the management at VMS Development J >>   might be influenced.  But it is more expensive for VMS Development toI >>   support older systems than newer systems, since running a particularsL >>   test suite is going to take longer on an older system.  So the contractJ >>   you are willing to sign for support should be for a _large_ number of >>   that older system model.o >iG >There's a VaxStation 3100/M76 on my desk and I use it every day I'm atOF >work. It runs under VMS 6.2. I confess that these days it's mainly a A >'DecTerm screen'. It's been a while since I used it to test the  ? >VAX/VMS version of my VAX/ELN systems, or other Decnet Server iF >processes. If it has to be replaced when we move to VMS 7.3(-1) I'll D >try and collar an AlphaStation 255. I've been told I can bring the  >VaxStation home.  >> >--  >Cheers - Dave W.  Hello from the Eighth DoctorT I have here a VS3100M76, he might be a relative of yours. My contact sent it to me, S with the provisio that it's got a problem with the framebuffer. Which is okay with cR me, because I'm planning on running a release of VMS on it, via a serial console.   O However, since my hobbyist copies of VMS were delivered on CD, and this fellow iU didn't bring his with him. Do you folks have any suggestions for running the install t mechanism with out one?e -- Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot netl ------$ "This signature is really not here."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:57:42 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 6 Subject: Re: VAXstation 3100: supported under VMS 7.3?B Message-ID: <1109119506.68df33c7fb13af45496e722858c7650b@teranews>   The Eighth Doctor wrote:  P > However, since my hobbyist copies of VMS were delivered on CD, and this fellowV > didn't bring his with him. Do you folks have any suggestions for running the install > mechanism with out one?s  D You could boot the vaxstation via ethernet from a cluster boot node.H from the boot node, you can backup saveset B onto the vaxstation's disk.C On the vaxtstation, take note of the cluster paremeters in sysboot.c  E Then, you need to b/1 to get to the vaxstation's sysboot and tell the @ vaxstation it is part of a cluster and apply the various clusterG parameters.  Then, when backup asks you for the device, you give it the H fully qualified CD drive device name on the boot node and it should then proceed with the install.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:24:54 -0500f' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>r6 Subject: Re: VAXstation 3100: supported under VMS 7.3?0 Message-ID: <111npqr5ce082bc@corp.supernews.com>   The Eighth Doctor wrote:B > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dpSblwTSOUfh@dave2_os2.home.ours>, " > djw-nothere@nospam.nohow says... > @ >>On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:00:31 UTC, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry  >>Kilgallen) wrote:s >> >><Snip> >>B >>>The only people running systems as old as the ones you describeC >>>are likely to be VMS hobbyists, who do not buy support contracts D >>>anyway, so whether a given box is supported or not is immaterial. >>>lI >>>* If there is some customer who wants to buy lots of support contractstO >>>  for a particular older system, I suppose the management at VMS Development J >>>  might be influenced.  But it is more expensive for VMS Development toI >>>  support older systems than newer systems, since running a particularpL >>>  test suite is going to take longer on an older system.  So the contractJ >>>  you are willing to sign for support should be for a _large_ number of >>>  that older system model.  >>H >>There's a VaxStation 3100/M76 on my desk and I use it every day I'm atG >>work. It runs under VMS 6.2. I confess that these days it's mainly a oB >>'DecTerm screen'. It's been a while since I used it to test the @ >>VAX/VMS version of my VAX/ELN systems, or other Decnet Server G >>processes. If it has to be replaced when we move to VMS 7.3(-1) I'll uE >>try and collar an AlphaStation 255. I've been told I can bring the t >>VaxStation home. >> >>-- t >>Cheers - Dave W. >  > Hello from the Eighth DoctorV > I have here a VS3100M76, he might be a relative of yours. My contact sent it to me, U > with the provisio that it's got a problem with the framebuffer. Which is okay with dT > me, because I'm planning on running a release of VMS on it, via a serial console.  > Q > However, since my hobbyist copies of VMS were delivered on CD, and this fellow nW > didn't bring his with him. Do you folks have any suggestions for running the install   > mechanism with out one?h > --! > Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot nett > ------& > "This signature is really not here." >   F Your best bet is to acquire a SCSI CD-ROM drive.  Possibly one of the E RD-4% drives, or another compatible drive.  It must support 512 byte  E buffers.  Some Toshiba drives work Ok.  5702 or something like that. vA Rather cheap on E-Bay, less than $20, quite likely less than $10.a  I If you don't have an external enclosure, then you can open the case, and pI plug in the internal connectors, power and SCSI, for loading the OS.  An dH external solution would allow you to use the drive for other things.  I F don't recommend normal running of the system with the cover off.  Not * saying that I haven't done so on occasion.   Dave   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.107 ************************