1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 24 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 109       Contents:/ Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) / Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling) ' Re: Checking for "file open for write". 6 Ever heard of FAL ceasing to work on a running system?: Re: Ever heard of FAL ceasing to work on a running system?: Re: Ever heard of FAL ceasing to work on a running system?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?< Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request?3 Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows 3 Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows 3 Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows 3 Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows 3 Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows  Re: NTP Problem  Re: SPAMCOP reporting  Re: SPAMCOP reporting  Re: SPAMCOP reporting  Re: SPAMCOP reporting  Re: SPAMCOP reporting  Re: SPAMCOP reporting  Re: SPAMCOP reporting   Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit center  Re: There goes the profit centerB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence CustomersB Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customers [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux ! Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux ! Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux ! Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux ! Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux ! Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux ! Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 24 Feb 2005 01:14:45 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com 8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling), Message-ID: <cvj9q502qru@enews3.newsguy.com>   jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote: F > So it looks like a DS10, with its 150 watt max draw, would provide aG > decent decrease in power usage.  I'm going to leave each piece I test   J My question is, how noisy is a DS10L?  If it's going to take significantlyM less power than my PWS 433au, that might be a good excuse for me to upgrade.  L For us both electricity usage and cooling are major issues.  The downside isF my systems have to live in our dining room, and as a result I'd prefer something quieter, not louder.  I Also, how bad is the EIDE performance on a DS10L compared to UW-SCSI on a 
 PWS 433au?   		Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:58:42 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 8 Subject: Re: Cheapest small alpha to run (power/cooling), Message-ID: <I4qdncoDfqJLqYDfRVn-1g@igs.net>   healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > jordan@ccs4vms.com wrote: G >> So it looks like a DS10, with its 150 watt max draw, would provide a H >> decent decrease in power usage.  I'm going to leave each piece I test > > > My question is, how noisy is a DS10L?  If it's going to takeB > significantly less power than my PWS 433au, that might be a goodE > excuse for me to upgrade. For us both electricity usage and cooling C > are major issues.  The downside is my systems have to live in our H > dining room, and as a result I'd prefer something quieter, not louder. > F > Also, how bad is the EIDE performance on a DS10L compared to UW-SCSI > on a PWS 433au?   I Perhaps you can construct some small panels or a box with sound-absorbing L material facing the cpu but still allowing adequate airflow around the unit.L You ought to be able to get the sound levels down 3-5db or so with the right
 materials.   --  - OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:17:28 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> 0 Subject: Re: Checking for "file open for write".' Message-ID: <421CF2E8.952DE1C6@aaa.com>    Z wrote:   > E > I've $SEARCHed the output of $SHOW DEVICE/FILES to figure this out.  > I > That method can't distinguish "open for read" from "open for write,"...   C *My* file is written by the FTP server, so it's always "for write".    Anyway, . I think I've settled for something like this :  
 $ cdt = ""+ $ cdt = f$file_attributes("test.fil","CDT")  $ if cdt .eqs. ""  $ then  $   write sys$output "Locked..." $ else $   write sys$output "Free..." $ endif   > That is, if the lexical could not set the symbol cdt, the fileC is "locked". I will also add a "set mess /no... /no..." to get away = the error/warning message that the lexical generates when the  file is locked...   E When I type "create test.fil" from another session, I get "Locked..." ( and when I press ctrl-Z, I get "Free..."   Regards and thanks !	 Jan-Erik.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:43:37 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing)? Subject: Ever heard of FAL ceasing to work on a running system? 6 Message-ID: <00A3FD46.E75259B0@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  	 VMSers --    Just had a weird situation.   O DS20E, VMS 7.3-2 with all the patches I know about.   Shares a system disk with K an AlphaServer 800.  DECnet Phase V using TCP/IP tower, running on Multinet * 4.4, again fully patched as far as I know.  N This morning on the DS20E, while logins via SET HOST kept working, attempts toM use FAL-type access started failing with "login information invalid at remote  node".  That is,     $ DIR 0::     = (with a proxy in place so this should work) failed with that;    $ DIR 0"username password"::   failed with that message.      From other nodes,   9 $ DIR fully-qualified-DS20e-nodename"username password"::    failed with that message.   M (And we were generating intrusion notifications for each one of these things, O and since many of our CGIs are originally OSU CGIs and are accessed via DECnet, : Apache was generating many, many intrusion notifications.)   At the same time,   ( $ DIR fully-qualified-AS800-node-name::   I worked fine, using the same sysuaf, same proxy database, same files, etc.   K We ended up rebooting - I *hate* doing that -  and the problem cleared up.  N Anybody have any ideas what could have brought this on, or what we should look at if it happens again?    Thanks,    -- Alan    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:06:20 +0000 (UTC) ? From: Graham Burley <burley.not-this@encompasserve-or-this.org> C Subject: Re: Ever heard of FAL ceasing to work on a running system? 9 Message-ID: <421D1A6E.502F4F86@encompasserve-or-this.org>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >   P > Anybody have any ideas what could have brought this on, or what we should look > at if it happens again?   C Naming services, in particular reverse address lookup on the target  node. E The security audit will give the remote nodename that failed to match  the proxy if that is the cause.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:20:31 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>C Subject: Re: Ever heard of FAL ceasing to work on a running system? + Message-ID: <421D39EE.ACD521CD@comcast.net>   , Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >  > VMSers --  >  > Just had a weird situation.  > Q > DS20E, VMS 7.3-2 with all the patches I know about.   Shares a system disk with M > an AlphaServer 800.  DECnet Phase V using TCP/IP tower, running on Multinet , > 4.4, again fully patched as far as I know. > P > This morning on the DS20E, while logins via SET HOST kept working, attempts toO > use FAL-type access started failing with "login information invalid at remote  > node".  That is, >  > $ DIR 0::  > ? > (with a proxy in place so this should work) failed with that;  >  > $ DIR 0"username password":: >  > failed with that message.  >  > From other nodes,  > ; > $ DIR fully-qualified-DS20e-nodename"username password"::  >  > failed with that message.  > O > (And we were generating intrusion notifications for each one of these things, Q > and since many of our CGIs are originally OSU CGIs and are accessed via DECnet, < > Apache was generating many, many intrusion notifications.) >  > At the same time,  > ) > $ DIR fully-qualified-AS800-node-name::  > K > worked fine, using the same sysuaf, same proxy database, same files, etc.  > L > We ended up rebooting - I *hate* doing that -  and the problem cleared up.P > Anybody have any ideas what could have brought this on, or what we should look > at if it happens again?   : Some not-so-obvious issue maybe raised an intrusion alarm?   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:53:35 GMT # From: Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com> E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? ; Message-ID: <3b5Td.87496$pc5.12532@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>    Write your own error handler.      Bob Kaplow wrote:   b > In article <421BF8AA.10C1B7D0@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > J >>Another is to estimate in advance how much data will be written to tape. >  > L > Well, that might work. But the actual source of the problem was our stupidF > day operator (who looks a LOT like that guy you've seen at CARTS LUG7 > meetings) put a DLT3 where a DLT4 should have been...  > K > The bottom line is that I need to make the batch backup script robust and ' > independent of operator intervention.  > 3 > 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" ( > 		>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<M > Kaplow Klips & Baffle:	http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf N >     www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/    www.nira-rocketry.org    www.nar.org > M >         This is a country which stands tallest in troubled times, a country M >         that clings to fundamental principles, cherishes its constitutional K >         heritage, and rejects simple solutions that compromise the values J >         that lie at the roots of our democratic system. -- Supreme Court* >         Justice Thurgood Marshall, 1972    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:34:46 +0000 - From: David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? * Message-ID: <421D0506.2030401@bigpond.com>    Bob Kaplow was overheard to say:\ > In article <421C8B32.4010005@bigpond.com>, David B Sneddon <dbsneddon@bigpond.com> writes: > * >>An abridged version of some of the steps >>" >>$ define/nolog sys$command opa0: >>$ reply/enable >>$ reply/disable  >>$ deassign sys$command* >>$ backup/image/assist/list='list_file' -, >>   'fulldevnam'/ignore=(interlock,label) -8 >>   'save_set'/media_format=compaction/block_size=30000 >  > G > I'll try this over the weekend. Do you really want /assist instead of ' > /noassist on the backup command here?  > 3 > 	Bob Kaplow	NAR # 18L	TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"   : Our backups usually run in batch.  I sometimes run the job; interactively and want it to act the same way reagrdless of < how it is run.  /NOASSIST is ignored in batch anyway (unless9 you redirect SYS$COMMAND before the BACKUP command).  The = above commands are saying disable assistance, do a backup and = ask for assistance if needed, it is this conflict that causes ; the failure.  The full backup procedure is available in the A DBS-DCL package from the address below.  Look for GENERIC_BACKUP. : It does an image backup of all disks on the system and has& been in use for a number of years now.   Regards, Dave.  --  D David B Sneddon (dbs)  VMS Systems Programmer  dbsneddon@bigpond.comD Sneddo's quick guide ...     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/D DBS freeware     http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:47:15 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> E Subject: Re: How to make BACKUP fail instead of making OPCOM request? B Message-ID: <1109201710.f768b09e46e168f6fb6433c34a6a9c8e@teranews>  C Different slant: would it be possible for your batch job to spawn a C subprocess which VMS would view as "interactive" at which point the % /NOASSIST might be handled properly ?    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 17:37:57 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> < Subject: Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to WindowsB Message-ID: <1109209077.870856.55580@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   rob kas wrote:$ > http://www.vnunet.com/news/1161471  F "'The .Net framework really adds a lot of productivity benefits to theC developers, and we've seen it already. Instead of mid-size projects G costing =A31m to =A32m and taking nine to 12 months, the quotes I'm now G getting are hundreds of thousands of pounds, taking three to six months  to do."   E Is he really comparing the time and cost of completed projects againt ; estimates quoted by developers????  What planet is he from?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:44:13 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> < Subject: Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows, Message-ID: <R8CdnTNue-8Ar4DfRVn-qg@igs.net>   johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > rob kas wrote:% >> http://www.vnunet.com/news/1161471  > H > "'The .Net framework really adds a lot of productivity benefits to theE > developers, and we've seen it already. Instead of mid-size projects E > costing 1m to 2m and taking nine to 12 months, the quotes I'm now B > getting are hundreds of thousands of pounds, taking three to six > months to do." > G > Is he really comparing the time and cost of completed projects againt = > estimates quoted by developers????  What planet is he from?     J Lots of projects in the financial world start at those pricetags and more.+ I've been involved in plenty @ $5MM and up.        --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 19:53:44 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> < Subject: Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to WindowsA Message-ID: <1109217224.398480.9890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    John Smith wrote: ! > johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > > rob kas wrote:' > >> http://www.vnunet.com/news/1161471  > > F > > "'The .Net framework really adds a lot of productivity benefits to the G > > developers, and we've seen it already. Instead of mid-size projects G > > costing =A31m to =A32m and taking nine to 12 months, the quotes I'm  now D > > getting are hundreds of thousands of pounds, taking three to six > > months to do." > > B > > Is he really comparing the time and cost of completed projects againt? > > estimates quoted by developers????  What planet is he from?  >  > F > Lots of projects in the financial world start at those pricetags and more. - > I've been involved in plenty @ $5MM and up.  >   E I wasn't questioning the pricetag, I was having a hard time believing E that this guy was taking "quotes" from developers on how long and how @ much they think a project will take at face value.  I'ts been my3 experience that often they are woefully optimistic.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:42:34 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> < Subject: Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to Windows0 Message-ID: <111qppfoi0acqc5@corp.supernews.com>   johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:  > rob kas wrote: > $ >>http://www.vnunet.com/news/1161471 >  > H > "'The .Net framework really adds a lot of productivity benefits to theE > developers, and we've seen it already. Instead of mid-size projects E > costing 1m to 2m and taking nine to 12 months, the quotes I'm now I > getting are hundreds of thousands of pounds, taking three to six months 	 > to do."  > G > Is he really comparing the time and cost of completed projects againt = > estimates quoted by developers????  What planet is he from?  >   D Well, either he believes in the MS slop, or he doesn't care, but in 3 either case he's a good salesman to his management.   @ The estimates can be from developers who have a much lower cost F structure.  Or they plan on sinking the hook and then reeling in cost @ overruns.  Note that the IT guy will find some way to pay them,  otherwise he looks real bad.  E The fat lady hasn't sung yet, and he may find a way to block her out.    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:48:20 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> < Subject: Re: London Stock Exchange slowing moving to WindowsB Message-ID: <1109223368.1cb8e73710d5146c870439f2f9b12384@teranews>  ! "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" wrote:   G > I wasn't questioning the pricetag, I was having a hard time believing G > that this guy was taking "quotes" from developers on how long and how B > much they think a project will take at face value.  I'ts been my5 > experience that often they are woefully optimistic.   C What surprises me is that LSE management would have been victims of E Microsoft's marketing and swallowed those promises. Considering it is F currently a target for a takeover and has true global competition, nowB would not be the time to switch to less stable systems because anyA downtime would make worldwide news and seriously eroide the LSE's  reputation.   B On the other hand, if this project does pan out and LSE is withoutD visible downtime, this will give Winkler a tremendous orgasm when heG starts to think about how he can now market Windows as mission critical D systems with the LSE as reference customer, and Winkler will start a; crusade to convert all HP customers to Microsoft customers.   E Remember that NASDAQ has been using virus infecting Microsoft IIS web G servers for a number of years and they don't seem to generate much news  about IT problems.  B A few years ago, YVR Inc (the administrators of Vancouver Airport)@ bragged about haing set a policy to restrict all IT to microsoftD products claiming it would save tons of money and standardise the ITD infratsructure etc etc. Yes, this was in their annual report. To me,G that was total incompetance, especially if the tendering procedures now D require all competing bids to come from Microsoft :-) And of course,C years later, they don't go back to shareholders to tell them how IT ? costs have risen due to higher than expected maintenance costs.     F Like most Windows projects, the bids promise lots at a very low price,G and once the project gets under way, they keep on raising the price and E once it is in production, the managers, in order to protect their own D reputation, will spend what it takes to make the thing work. But the< project is considered done and no longer under any scrutiny.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 11:28:29 -0800" From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com Subject: Re: NTP ProblemC Message-ID: <1109186909.221758.126220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Karl Rohwedder wrote: % > dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote: E > >     I have just added a GS1280 with 1.3 GHz CPU's, to my cluster. D > > OS is OVMS Vers 7.3-1, TCPIP is Version 5.3 ECO 2, and DECNet is Phase  > > IV. E > >     I have an older GS1280 which has 1.15 GHz CPU's.    NTP works  fineB > > on all the other cluster nodes.   It only fails on the new EV7 cpu's. > >     The error is > > 5 > > %SYSTEM-F-BADLOGIC, internal logic error detected > > > VMS timekeeping is not working as expected - can't proceed > > F > >     I understand that this is a known problem, and that there is a > > patch available for it.  > > D > >     Can anyone tell me where I can get the patch, or information about  > > the patch? > > 	 > > Dave.  > > 4 > According to the releasenotes it is fixed in V5.4. >  > mfg Kalle   E Is this my only option ???    I am not in a position to upgrade TCPIP  right now.     Dave.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 13:32:50 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reporting3 Message-ID: <fxa6eq9hAqMf@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <1109180087.ed311a260e671f30ea1c8a5d12282f9b@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:J > Whoever on decuserve reported some spam to SPAMCOP recently,  you should@ > have at the very least contacted me to advise you wanted my IP9 > blacklisted insted of those of the anonymous remailers.   I There are various SpamCop subscribers on DECUServe, and I am one of them.   J Are you suggesting that every piece of spam we receive on DECUServe should7 be reported to you first before being sent to SpamCop ?   D Unless you commit to stay awake 24 hours a day, that would certainlyF interfere with the SpamCop goal of having spam reported within 2 hours of receipt.   H Even if schedule were not a problem, you would be receiving 100 messages= a day, just from me.  I don't know how many others there are.   H > SPAMCOP doesn't even bother trying to contact the onwer of an IP, they, > just send a copy to onwer of the IP block.  F Informing the spammer is generally viewed as unproductive.  There is aK way you can request notification from SpamCop, but it might not be granted.   F > Now I have to fight to clear my name with SPAMCOP because instead of; > focusing on the anonymous remailers, they focused on me.    I "Clear your name" ?  What does that mean ?  SpamCop does not track names, G just IP addresses.  If you have an example of a case where SpamCop made J a parsing mistake and said mail came from your IP address when it did not,E you should bring it up for discussion in the SpamCop newsgroups where F there are participants who can analyze the parse (be sure to provide aD tracking number).  Set your newsreader to point to NEWS.SPAMCOP.NET.  C > Meanwhile, I can't send email and expect the recipient to get it.   E That is up to the recipient.  If they are unwilling to whitelist you,  that is their choice.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:45:42 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reportingB Message-ID: <1109201616.30e35726c8a9b703335410ff17e1ec01@teranews>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:L > Are you suggesting that every piece of spam we receive on DECUServe should9 > be reported to you first before being sent to SpamCop ?   B No. I stated that the report of a anonymously posted piece of junk? containing my personal information ended up hurting ME, not the A anonymous remailer because SPAMCOP saw my web site address in the F contents of the idiot's diatribe and SPAMCOP automatically saw this asB ME using spam to lure people to my website, instead of focusing onE MIT.EDU which knowingly tolerates such abuses without ever taking any H action to prevent the abuse of the anonymous remailer they provide.  (InR this case, about 3 anonymous remailers were involved in distributing the message).    H > Informing the spammer is generally viewed as unproductive.  There is aM > way you can request notification from SpamCop, but it might not be granted.   F Proper RBLs should at the very least send an email to abuse@domain.tldA to see if there is a response in order to reduce false positives.   K > "Clear your name" ?  What does that mean ?  SpamCop does not track names, I > just IP addresses.  If you have an example of a case where SpamCop made L > a parsing mistake and said mail came from your IP address when it did not,  E They saw my web site listed in the idiot's message and included it in E its list of guilty parties for that message, just like they treat web G sites selling those magin 3" pills pointing to some web site where they # collect money from advertising etc.    ------------------------------   Date: 24 Feb 2005 00:33:32 GMT+ From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@openvms-rocks.com>  Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reporting7 Message-ID: <Xns960710279EC94dcovmsrox@212.100.160.123>   ! %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, JF Mezei wrote in : news:1109201616.30e35726c8a9b703335410ff17e1ec01@teranews    > Larry Kilgallen wrote:F >> Are you suggesting that every piece of spam we receive on DECUServeA >> should be reported to you first before being sent to SpamCop ?  > D > No. I stated that the report of a anonymously posted piece of junkA > containing my personal information ended up hurting ME, not the C > anonymous remailer because SPAMCOP saw my web site address in the H > contents of the idiot's diatribe and SPAMCOP automatically saw this asD > ME using spam to lure people to my website, instead of focusing onG > MIT.EDU which knowingly tolerates such abuses without ever taking any F > action to prevent the abuse of the anonymous remailer they provide. = > (In this case, about 3 anonymous remailers were involved in  > distributing the message).    I In this case, I can be reasonably sure that the message was *not* spam.   J Reporting it to spamcop was inappropriate.  The reference to JF's website I was assumed to be spamming it and thus got it listed.  I can imagine the   headaches this could cause JF.     Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:28:51 -0500 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>  Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reporting1 Message-ID: <rZOdneCQ2pxIsIDfRVn-vA@adelphia.com>    JF Mezei wrote:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > D > No. I stated that the report of a anonymously posted piece of junkA > containing my personal information ended up hurting ME, not the C > anonymous remailer because SPAMCOP saw my web site address in the H > contents of the idiot's diatribe and SPAMCOP automatically saw this asD > ME using spam to lure people to my website, instead of focusing onG > MIT.EDU which knowingly tolerates such abuses without ever taking any J > action to prevent the abuse of the anonymous remailer they provide.  (InT > this case, about 3 anonymous remailers were involved in distributing the message).  H No, spamcop.net just sent a notify that the URL was referenced in spam. H To prevent such notices, either have you or your isp follow the link in F the notify and indicate that you are an innocent bystander.  Then you > will not get such notifications in the future unless a paying , spamcop.net member appeals this to a deputy.  H Spammers routinely put innocent bystanders URLs in their spam.  That is $ known as doing a joe-job on someone.  G Reporters are suppose to uncheck the notification boxes if they notice  @ that an innocent bystander URL is included in the notifications.  H >>Informing the spammer is generally viewed as unproductive.  There is aM >>way you can request notification from SpamCop, but it might not be granted.  >   H > Proper RBLs should at the very least send an email to abuse@domain.tldC > to see if there is a response in order to reduce false positives.   F Your ISP received such a notification that they passed on to you, but H web site reports do not count  toward getting an I.P on the spamcop.net  DNSbl.  D Some DNSbls have decided that such notifications are non-productive.E See http://www.dsbl.org which is very widely used, probably far more   than spamcop.net is.  I But based on what you are stating, your I.P. address was never listed on   the spamcop.net DNSBL.  H If you post what IP is in question, then I can show you how to check it E in a number of DNSbls.  And paying spamcop.net members can see if it  ( ever has been reported for sending spam.  K >>"Clear your name" ?  What does that mean ?  SpamCop does not track names, I >>just IP addresses.  If you have an example of a case where SpamCop made L >>a parsing mistake and said mail came from your IP address when it did not,  G > They saw my web site listed in the idiot's message and included it in G > its list of guilty parties for that message, just like they treat web I > sites selling those magin 3" pills pointing to some web site where they % > collect money from advertising etc.   G The reports about the URLs do not cause any I.P. addresses to be added  ! to the spamcop.net blocking list.   H Your only risk of these is if your hosting service does not investigate J these reports to tell the difference between a joe-job and a real spammer.  H In most cases a quick look at what is the URL makes it obvious what the  case is.  I If it was obvious in the reported spam that your address was maliciously  = added, then the reporter made a mistake by not unchecking it.   H By following the link in the report and marking the the I.P. address of G the URL as an innocent bystander, it will prevent such mistakes in the   future.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:36:14 -0500 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>  Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reporting1 Message-ID: <KpKdnZO1L6cMsoDfRVn-qA@adelphia.com>    Doc. wrote: # > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, JF Mezei wrote in < > news:1109201616.30e35726c8a9b703335410ff17e1ec01@teranews  >  > D >>No. I stated that the report of a anonymously posted piece of junkA >>containing my personal information ended up hurting ME, not the C >>anonymous remailer because SPAMCOP saw my web site address in the H >>contents of the idiot's diatribe and SPAMCOP automatically saw this asD >>ME using spam to lure people to my website, instead of focusing onG >>MIT.EDU which knowingly tolerates such abuses without ever taking any F >>action to prevent the abuse of the anonymous remailer they provide. = >>(In this case, about 3 anonymous remailers were involved in  >>distributing the message).   > K > In this case, I can be reasonably sure that the message was *not* spam.   L > Reporting it to spamcop was inappropriate.  The reference to JF's website K > was assumed to be spamming it and thus got it listed.  I can imagine the    > headaches this could cause JF.  7 Only if you do not understand how spamcop.net operates.   I  From this description, JF's ISP only received a notify that the URL was   used by a spammer.  E The I.P. address would not have been put on the spamcop.net list for   that reason.  G The only way it would causes JF problems is if his ISP was incompetent  & and did not investigate abuse reports.  L All of this information on how spamcop.net works is available on their site.   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:04:49 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reportingB Message-ID: <1109209965.85dfd5bf352b993e6990528f862d4ae3@teranews>   "John E. Malmberg" wrote: I > To prevent such notices, either have you or your isp follow the link in > > the notify and indicate that you are an innocent bystander.   G My ISP did this and called me to advise me that my nemesis had reported H me to SPAMCOP. I did get 2 URLs, but one did not work because I am not aG member of SPAMCOP. The second URL allowed me to post a comment, but not - to see the actual message or log about my IP.   H My ISP did send me the copy of the report, and it is only when I saw theH headers that I realised that the offending message had been processed byF decuserve (or whetever its name is this week), so the complaint didn't4 originate from my nemesis but from a decuserve user.  
 > Then you? > will not get such notifications in the future unless a paying . > spamcop.net member appeals this to a deputy.    E The problem is that I did not receive such a notification. My ISP was H kind enough to contact me. To tell me about it. It would be more ethicalE to have their scripts send a copy to both the owner of the IP and the  owner of the IP block.  D And since this offending message was NNTP and not SMTP, does SPAMCOP2 really care ? I thought they were only SMTP based.  I > If you post what IP is in question, then I can show you how to check it     69.28.228.143  H > The reports about the URLs do not cause any I.P. addresses to be added# > to the spamcop.net blocking list.r  G I was told thatr if they get a number of complaints, the will blacklistsH the IP address to prevent me from sending mail. (or rather to prevent myH emails from being received). The problem is one of notification. If I amH not told that one RBL someowhere in the world decided for whatever reaonG to include my IP in their database, how am I supposed to take action to & counter it of if don't know about it ?  I > By following the link in the report and marking the the I.P. address ofdH > the URL as an innocent bystander, it will prevent such mistakes in the	 > future.   H SPAMCOP asked me to log in.  How am I supposed to defend myself ? Must I= pay membership fee to correct the mistake someone else made ?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:37:20 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>n Subject: Re: SPAMCOP reportingB Message-ID: <1109222706.67663fcf2e78dc6934f902f69e53107e@teranews>   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:iJ > If you are concerned you can post either on the web forum or the privateE > news server, and if the spamcop.net users there can not answer youreI > questions or point you at a web link that does, then they will tell you I > how to direct your question directly to a deputy.  The deputy queue foreB > non-emergency matters seems to be about 72 hours for a response.  E Thanks for your explanation (and time).  Just frustrating to find outiA that you may or may not be a candidate to be included in some RBLoD without having access to the information they may use against you to justify putting you on.r   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Feb 2005 19:01:32 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerO, Message-ID: <38428cF5h671gU4@individual.net>  B In article <1109184142.211559.13740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,8 	"greigaln@netscape.net" <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:I > Of course I understand the possibility of damaging the printer but as I-I > can buy a new printer for less than  the cost of official Epson Black +e' > Colour cartridges I'll live with it. @  A I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They)? had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkcB cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which: included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!   bill     -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   d   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 13:37:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerc3 Message-ID: <1FY7FB5RYpst@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  c In article <02NSd.2894$DW.1545@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:m  O > I believe that this story is true.  And I can think of a number of ways that fK > it could work.  The cartridge doesn't need a clock, it just needs a drop oM > dead date.  The printer checks to see if the current date is past the drop  N > dead date.  The printer could get the current date from the computer or, it  > could have a clock chip.  E I have read the specification for the AppleTalk PAP protocol I use to4F access the HP LaserJet 5SiMX from VMS and MacOS 9.1.  I recall nothing that transmitted the time.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:00:08 GMTi% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>o) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centero; Message-ID: <ch5Td.3167$DW.1625@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>   / "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> wrote in message e2 news:gsko119l4snmr6truk5rcbi3tbods0jp1i@4ax.com... >fC > I heard of this several years ago but in relation to laser toner o > cartridges. ItL > does make sense to have some sort of expiry date as toner becomes caked &  > ink  > dries out over time. >   J It still makes no sense.  Let the consumer decide if the print quality is H acceptable.  If the toner is caked, you'll get uneven printing but your J printer will NOT burst into flames.  There might be some slim chance that C old toner could damage the print drum but, the drum is part of the V
 cartridge!  J I can see how old ink might clog a print head but, every inkjet cartridge J I've ever seen the print head is part of the cartridge so who cares if it 
 gets clogged?    It's all about profit.   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Feb 2005 20:11:14 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center., Message-ID: <3846b1F5gdovbU1@individual.net>  ; In article <ch5Td.3167$DW.1625@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>, ( 	"John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:1 > "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> wrote in message n4 > news:gsko119l4snmr6truk5rcbi3tbods0jp1i@4ax.com... >>D >> I heard of this several years ago but in relation to laser toner  >> cartridges. It M >> does make sense to have some sort of expiry date as toner becomes caked & - >> ink >> dries out over time.e >> > L > It still makes no sense.  Let the consumer decide if the print quality is J > acceptable.  If the toner is caked, you'll get uneven printing but your L > printer will NOT burst into flames.  There might be some slim chance that E > old toner could damage the print drum but, the drum is part of the   > cartridge!   Not in all printers!!    > L > I can see how old ink might clog a print head but, every inkjet cartridge L > I've ever seen the print head is part of the cartridge so who cares if it  > gets clogged?  >  > It's all about profit.  oB I agree with this statement.  Even my home system goes through inkC faster than the cartridge is likely to expire.  I can't imagine anyp$ legitimate reason for expiring them.   bill     -- "J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:12:40 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centere, Message-ID: <Vtmdndpy4LkmfoHfRVn-oA@igs.net>   John Vottero wrote:n0 > "Nigel Barker" <nigel@hp.com> wrote in message4 > news:gsko119l4snmr6truk5rcbi3tbods0jp1i@4ax.com... >>C >> I heard of this several years ago but in relation to laser tonerl >> cartridges. It D >> does make sense to have some sort of expiry date as toner becomes >> caked & ink >> dries out over time.  >> > @ > It still makes no sense.  Let the consumer decide if the printB > quality is acceptable.  If the toner is caked, you'll get unevenG > printing but your printer will NOT burst into flames.  There might beeF > some slim chance that old toner could damage the print drum but, the  > drum is part of the cartridge! >aA > I can see how old ink might clog a print head but, every inkjetpE > cartridge I've ever seen the print head is part of the cartridge son > who cares if it gets clogged?y >d > It's all about profit.    L Some of the larger color multifunction units have separate print heads. TheyK are ostensibly designed for use on networks for small workgroups, so havingeC separate print heads with longer replacement intervals makes sense.g  I That said, the quality of HP's printer drivers in the Windows environment I leaves a lot to be desired - conflicts if you have certain b&w lasers andtK color printers installed on the same machine, network functionality that isaH flaky, network discovery issues, etc..... They are better than they onceJ were but there's still room for LOTS of improvement - even for some of the newest printers.   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.k   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:13:56 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center , Message-ID: <Cf6dnZRuRtiaeYHfRVn-pw@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1109184142.211559.13740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,9 > "greigaln@netscape.net" <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:nE >> Of course I understand the possibility of damaging the printer butgG >> as I can buy a new printer for less than  the cost of official Epsoni/ >> Black + Colour cartridges I'll live with it.a >aC > I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  TheytA > had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement ink-D > cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which< > included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!    ) Our good friend P.T. Barnum said it best.u   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:05:10 -0500b( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerm= Message-ID: <qI-dnSUXjfGVbYHfRVn-og@metrocastcablevision.com>r   John Smith wrote:d   ...o  + > Our good friend P.T. Barnum said it best.  >  > --/ > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.O  9 What remarkable prescience!  Almost as good as Carly's...o   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Feb 2005 23:07:09 GMT+ From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@openvms-rocks.com> ) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerj6 Message-ID: <Xns9607174EA363dcovmsrox@212.100.160.123>  G %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, John Smith wrote in news:Cf6dnZRuRtiaeYHfRVn-pw@igs.net    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:   <snip>  D >> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  TheyB >> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkE >> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer whiche= >> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!u >  > + > Our good friend P.T. Barnum said it best.u  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.     Doc. -- vG OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.K   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Feb 2005 23:05:32 GMT+ From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@openvms-rocks.com>h) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center46 Message-ID: <Xns960712E8632Bdcovmsrox@212.100.160.123>  % %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, John Vottero wrote in 3 news:ch5Td.3167$DW.1625@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com l   <snip>  A > I can see how old ink might clog a print head but, every inkjetsE > cartridge I've ever seen the print head is part of the cartridge sot > who cares if it gets clogged?   H That's not been the case with my last and current Canon inkjet printers I (I replaced the printer because ink was no longer available - after over aJ 8 years of trouble-free use).  The print head is completely separate from F the cartridges, there's no stupid chips built into the cartridges and G when they're nearly empty it gives a warning but can easily be made to e  print until all the ink is used.   > It's all about profit.  D Yup, and the fact that other suppliers do not need to stoop to such I dubious practices means that HP could (and probably should) be nailed to n the wall on this one.      Doc. -- sG OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems./G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster._   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:39:11 -0500s. From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center B Message-ID: <1109201227.59403f90acc63f213105c03782396ebb@teranews>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:C > I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They.A > had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkMD > cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which< > included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!    G I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges that comessH with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge. Has anyone else heard this ?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:28:05 -0500b# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centero, Message-ID: <4JGdnRgieMEUjIDfRVn-uw@igs.net>   Doc. wrote:h% > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, John Smith wrote in % > news:Cf6dnZRuRtiaeYHfRVn-pw@igs.netn >o >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >- > <snip> >-E >>> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They<C >>> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkiF >>> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which> >>> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!! >> >>, >> Our good friend P.T. Barnum said it best. >S8 > The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.    8 I was thinking of  "There's a sucker born every minute".     --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:47:00 -0500h# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>g) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerg, Message-ID: <j9adnehQt59liIDfRVn-rQ@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote:1 > Bill Gunshannon wrote:D >> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  TheyB >> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkE >> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer whichr= >> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!  >d > C > I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges thataE > comes with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge.- > Has anyone else heard this ?    D They're called 'starter' cartridges and have about 1/2 the amount ofI consumables. The test page that's printed after the drivers are installedD3 consumes most of it - or so it seems on HP inkjets.y  J HP isn't they only printer vendor that does this. I know that Brother doesJ this with their lasers - or at least they used to - not sure about today's	 practice.s   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.e   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Feb 2005 00:29:20 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centers, Message-ID: <384lf0F5kj1o6U2@individual.net>  , In article <j9adnehQt59liIDfRVn-rQ@igs.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > JF Mezei wrote:  >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:iE >>> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They C >>> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement ink F >>> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which> >>> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!! >> >>D >> I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges thatF >> comes with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge. >> Has anyone else heard this ?c >  > F > They're called 'starter' cartridges and have about 1/2 the amount ofK > consumables. The test page that's printed after the drivers are installed 5 > consumes most of it - or so it seems on HP inkjets.i > L > HP isn't they only printer vendor that does this. I know that Brother doesL > this with their lasers - or at least they used to - not sure about today's > practice.o  F I have used Okidata, Epson, Canon, HP, Sun, Lexmark and IBM inkjet andH laser printers.  I have never noticed them to use up the first cartridgeI any faster than later ones.  Of course, the better printers, like LexmarkoF usually have a longer life cartridge you can buy that does anywhere up1 to twice as many pages as a "standard" cartridge.v   bill d   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Feb 2005 00:24:02 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center1, Message-ID: <384l51F5kj1o6U1@individual.net>  B In article <1109201227.59403f90acc63f213105c03782396ebb@teranews>,1 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:l > Bill Gunshannon wrote:D >> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  TheyB >> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkE >> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which,= >> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!m >  > I > I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges that comesoJ > with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge. Has anyone > else heard this ?c  H I had someone tell me that too. But it's purely anecdotal.  Knowing thatI they would need totally different production runs and the need to be suret2 they never got lots mixed up I seriously doubt it.   bill   -- NJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:49:11 -0500x# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center2, Message-ID: <lLCdnaHRkchnroDfRVn-vg@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:D > In article <1109201227.59403f90acc63f213105c03782396ebb@teranews>,2 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:hE >>> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They C >>> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement ink F >>> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which> >>> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!! >> >>D >> I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges thatF >> comes with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge. >> Has anyone else heard this ?  >uE > I had someone tell me that too. But it's purely anecdotal.  KnowingwE > that they would need totally different production runs and the neede? > to be sure they never got lots mixed up I seriously doubt it.i    @ Go online and read some of the manuals for some models from someE manufacturers - they are quite explicit that they ship with 'starter's( cartridges with lower printing capacity.  E It isn't so hard to meter the amount of toner or ink that goes into ayK cartridge - they already do it, So what's to stop them from producing a runRJ of 300,000 with 1/2 the ink or toner and shipping them to Thailand, China,L or wherever the printers are assembled while shipping the full cartridges to Staples, Walmart and Costco?   --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 02:02:53 GMTp% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>i) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center,> Message-ID: <hBaTd.11674$hU7.11660@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>  < "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message < news:1109201227.59403f90acc63f213105c03782396ebb@teranews... > Bill Gunshannon wrote:D >> I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  TheyB >> had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inkE >> cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer whicht= >> included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!!. >  >-I > I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges that comesbJ > with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge. Has anyone > else heard this ?w  C I've experienced this first hand.  It was clearly explained in the l) documentation that came with the printer.    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 21:01:03 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h) Subject: Re: There goes the profit center23 Message-ID: <KDONgB7mwqj1@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <38428cF5h671gU4@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:sD > In article <1109184142.211559.13740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,: > 	"greigaln@netscape.net" <greigaln@netscape.net> writes:J >> Of course I understand the possibility of damaging the printer but as IJ >> can buy a new printer for less than  the cost of official Epson Black +( >> Colour cartridges I'll live with it.  > C > I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They A > had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement ink D > cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which< > included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!! >   = 	Well... it is a profit center.  If you are up to it, you canP 	get a "free" $5000 printer:  ! http://www.freecolorprinters.com/   B 	Now don't hold my feet to the fire if I'm off a $1000 or so, when= 	I looked at that a year ago it was about $5000 (if I recall s3 	correctly).  Of course there is a catch.  NSTAAFL.u   				Roba   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:59:49 -0500t' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> ) Subject: Re: There goes the profit centerD0 Message-ID: <111qqppk18dbq34@corp.supernews.com>   JF Mezei wrote:c > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > C >>I noticed the same thing the last time I was in Sam's Club.  They A >>had an HP pinter on the shelf right next to the replacement inknD >>cartidges for it.  The cartridges cost more than the printer which< >>included cartridges.  This is price gouging at it's best!! >  >  > I > I've been told, but cannot say for sure, that the cartridges that comeseJ > with printers contain about half the ink of a real cartridge. Has anyone > else heard this ?   H I don't know about inkjets, but the laser printer I recently purchased, B and the one before that, both stated that the printer came with a H 'starter' toner cartridge, good for about 1/2 to 1/3 of a regular toner H cartridge.  don't think they've figured out how to limit the drum units H yet.  Brands were Panasonic and Brother.  Panasonic's poor help was the H reason I bought the Brother, after first checking out their help.  Fool  me once, but not twice.p   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:54:59 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customers + Message-ID: <421D33F3.A9D47613@comcast.net>s   Tom Linden wrote:W > 6 > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:06:24 -0600, David J Dachtera$ > <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >  > > Tom Linden wrote:e > >>9 > >> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:38:13 -0600, David J Dachtera-' > >> <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:2 > >> > >> > Tom Linden wrote: > >> >>i8 > >> >> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:35:10 GMT, Kenneth Farmer. > >> >> <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> wrote: > >> >>7G > >> >> > This isn't so much targeted at you Tom but everyone in cov...r	 > >> >> >sI > >> >> > Keith is right on target.  This is the result of several people  > >> >> outside  > >> >> > ofK > >> >> > HP.  However several people inside HP are involved and are alwaysn > >> >> > willing toF > >> >> > assist.  When it comes from the community (customer base) it > >> obviously > >> >> > carries more weight.	 > >> >> >AM > >> >> > Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press.  Well, somet > >> >> > inside6 > >> >> > and outside have made sure that's happening.	 > >> >> > L > >> >> > It's actually very simple. Email trade press writers and tell them > >> >> theyH > >> >> > should/need to write and article about VMS.  Tell them you can > >> muster  > >> >> thes+ > >> >> > community to provide quotes, etc.a	 > >> >> > M > >> >> > The bad part is these writers are always on a tight schedule.  TheyR > >> >> > usuallyeL > >> >> > contact you days before the article needs to be written, hence the > >> >> urgent@ > >> >> > messages we've had to push out every couple of months.	 > >> >> >sK > >> >> > I'll tell you one way things could be made easier.  I can start ae > >> >> list of K > >> >> > people that are willing to talk to the press and their company is 	 > >> willm > >> >> > allow K > >> >> > it.  The volunteers can name certain areas of "specialty" such asa > >> >> > disasterJ > >> >> > tolerance, clustering, rdb, etc.  I can then post this list with > >> theH > >> >> > specialties (no names).  The list will target writers and tell > >> them we
 > >> >> > can:I > >> >> > assemble the customers quickly so that they can be interviewed.r
 > >> Sound > >> >> > good?7	 > >> >> >oD > >> >> > Take a look at this page and let me know what you think...	 > >> >> >05 > >> >> > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Pressg > >> >>t; > >> >> Looks good.  I will send the link to our customers.  > >> >>rK > >> >> What flabbergasts me, is that (Now I'm beginning to sound like John  > >> >> Smith)L > >> >> is that because HP isn't willing/able to market the product in spite > >> ofn > >> >> thetJ > >> >> fact that VMS contributed $867Million gross profit to fiscal 2004, > >> theJ > >> >> loyalist/guerillas are trying to do it for them, without a budget! > >> >>g5 > >> >> Can't recall a similar situation in the past.  > >> >J > >> > Oh, COME now! You *MUST* have witnessed SOME situation SOMEwhere in	 > >> yournH > >> > career where everything stagnated until people of leadership came
 > >> along > >> > and took the reins..  > >>L > >> But not from customers or people outside the company.  That is a first,; > >> but then I have only been in the business for 39 yearsr > >t > > Really?e > >oK > > Who made "luggable" "personal" computers a practical reality? (Hint: Iti > > wasn't IBM.)	 > Osburnec > >cF > > Who put MS-DOS and later WhineBloze on "every" desktop in America?  > > (Hint: It wasn't Micro$lop.) > IBMe > >rL > > Who made Intel THE supplier of microprocessor chips to the world? (Hint: > > It wasn't Intel.)2 > >  > Microsoft I > > Who made gasoline one of the more important commodities of the modernP5 > > world? (Hint: It wasn't the petroleum companies.)a > >  > GM > > Need any more examples?l > >r > Those examples aren't germane   E How so? In every case, someone took some else's product and made it af dominant force in the market.o  / How does that differ with what we're exploring?   G ...or are you opertaing under the assumption that all this is about hast? only to do with advertising, promoting, etc. ("marketing") VMS?i   -- t David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/y   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:12:35 -0600d2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customers + Message-ID: <421D3812.C24B9BCE@comcast.net>r   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <421BF45E.AC530B3F@comcast.net>,g> >         David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: > >cL > > One of my major points is: don't wait for hp to pick up the ball and runI > > with it - it ain't happ'nin'. Get over it. If it is to be, it's up totB > > WE, and at an individual level, if it is to be, it's up to ME. > >  > I > I realize that people here are getting tired of all the negativity, butaE > something even more frightening just struck me.  Does everyone hereuF > realize that should HP give up on VMS (or fail copmpletely and ceaseD > to exist as a viable company!) the current crop of users will haveF > no more than one year to migrate to another system before their PAKsD > all expire?  It's really nice to see everyone pushing for VMS, butB > the control still lies in HP's hands and they have been known to > drop the ball before.n  H Well, those whose licenses require an annual renewal would indeed face a grim choice.  A Likewise, hobbyists would be left with some unattractive options.D  E However, most commercial licenses never expire. So, we'd be where theoE V5.5-2 folks have been for lo these many years (twelve years or more, B eh?), just a bit worse since the cessation of formal support could* present some serious technical challenges.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:i" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:13:37 -0800n# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>oK Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customersl( Message-ID: <opsmolwzjtzgicya@hyrrokkin>  6 On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:54:59 -0600, David J Dachtera  " <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:   > Tom Linden wrote:u >>7 >> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:06:24 -0600, David J Dachterad% >> <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote:y >> >> > Tom Linden wrote: >> >>g: >> >> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:38:13 -0600, David J Dachtera( >> >> <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> wrote: >> >>n >> >> > Tom Linden wrote:u >> >> >>9 >> >> >> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:35:10 GMT, Kenneth Farmer-/ >> >> >> <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> wrote:5 >> >> >>H >> >> >> > This isn't so much targeted at you Tom but everyone in cov...
 >> >> >> >J >> >> >> > Keith is right on target.  This is the result of several people >> >> >> outside
 >> >> >> > of G >> >> >> > HP.  However several people inside HP are involved and are   	 >> alwaysa >> >> >> > willing tomG >> >> >> > assist.  When it comes from the community (customer base) it  >> >> obviouslyh >> >> >> > carries more weight.S
 >> >> >> >K >> >> >> > Everyone wanted to see VMS mentioned more in the press.  Well,  t >> somey >> >> >> > insideu7 >> >> >> > and outside have made sure that's happening.n
 >> >> >> >J >> >> >> > It's actually very simple. Email trade press writers and tell   >> themn
 >> >> >> theytI >> >> >> > should/need to write and article about VMS.  Tell them you canm >> >> muster >> >> >> the, >> >> >> > community to provide quotes, etc.
 >> >> >> >K >> >> >> > The bad part is these writers are always on a tight schedule.   o >> Theyp >> >> >> > usuallyK >> >> >> > contact you days before the article needs to be written, hence  d >> the >> >> >> urgent A >> >> >> > messages we've had to push out every couple of months. 
 >> >> >> >L >> >> >> > I'll tell you one way things could be made easier.  I can start   >> a >> >> >> list ofK >> >> >> > people that are willing to talk to the press and their company  r >> ist
 >> >> will >> >> >> > allowK >> >> >> > it.  The volunteers can name certain areas of "specialty" such  t >> as  >> >> >> > disasteriK >> >> >> > tolerance, clustering, rdb, etc.  I can then post this list with 	 >> >> thenI >> >> >> > specialties (no names).  The list will target writers and telle
 >> >> them we2 >> >> >> > canJ >> >> >> > assemble the customers quickly so that they can be interviewed. >> >> SoundD >> >> >> > good?
 >> >> >> >E >> >> >> > Take a look at this page and let me know what you think...s
 >> >> >> >6 >> >> >> > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=Press >> >> >>< >> >> >> Looks good.  I will send the link to our customers. >> >> >>I >> >> >> What flabbergasts me, is that (Now I'm beginning to sound like  t >> Johnb >> >> >> Smith)rI >> >> >> is that because HP isn't willing/able to market the product in  a >> spite >> >> of >> >> >> theK >> >> >> fact that VMS contributed $867Million gross profit to fiscal 2004,,	 >> >> theoK >> >> >> loyalist/guerillas are trying to do it for them, without a budget!e >> >> >>6 >> >> >> Can't recall a similar situation in the past. >> >> >aK >> >> > Oh, COME now! You *MUST* have witnessed SOME situation SOMEwhere inu
 >> >> yourI >> >> > career where everything stagnated until people of leadership camer >> >> along  >> >> > and took the reins.. >> >> H >> >> But not from customers or people outside the company.  That is a  	 >> first,l< >> >> but then I have only been in the business for 39 years >> > >> > Really? >> >K >> > Who made "luggable" "personal" computers a practical reality? (Hint:  s >> Its >> > wasn't IBM.) 
 >> Osburne >> >G >> > Who put MS-DOS and later WhineBloze on "every" desktop in America?s! >> > (Hint: It wasn't Micro$lop.)o >> IBM >> >H >> > Who made Intel THE supplier of microprocessor chips to the world?  	 >> (Hint:  >> > It wasn't Intel.) >> > >> MicrosoftJ >> > Who made gasoline one of the more important commodities of the modern6 >> > world? (Hint: It wasn't the petroleum companies.) >> > >> GMv >> > Need any more examples? >> >  >> Those examples aren't germane >IG > How so? In every case, someone took some else's product and made it ar > dominant force in the market. J It was a commercial enterprise that took the  initiative.  This is a group+ of customers/supporters/enthusiats/amateursr >r1 > How does that differ with what we're exploring?s > I > ...or are you opertaing under the assumption that all this is about hasMA > only to do with advertising, promoting, etc. ("marketing") VMS?I No, it is much more than that. >        -- eC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:34:38 GMTu  From: John Santos <john@egh.com>K Subject: Re: Trade Press Needs to Talk with HP Disaster Tolerence Customersl+ Message-ID: <OHdTd.10322$QQ3.3424@trnddc02>n   Bill Gunshannon wrote:. > In article <383gpkF5l7469U1@individual.net>,2 > 	Roy Omond <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>. >>>In article <421BF45E.AC530B3F@comcast.net>,8 >>>	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >>>- >>>eL >>>>One of my major points is: don't wait for hp to pick up the ball and runI >>>>with it - it ain't happ'nin'. Get over it. If it is to be, it's up to B >>>>WE, and at an individual level, if it is to be, it's up to ME. >>>iJ >>>I realize that people here are getting tired of all the negativity, butF >>>something even more frightening just struck me.  Does everyone hereG >>>realize that should HP give up on VMS (or fail copmpletely and ceaseeE >>>to exist as a viable company!) the current crop of users will have1G >>>no more than one year to migrate to another system before their PAKsaE >>>all expire?  It's really nice to see everyone pushing for VMS, butaC >>>the control still lies in HP's hands and they have been known tot >>>drop the ball before. >> >>Oh really ...r >>A >>If VMS were to become totally orphaned (i.e. belong to no-one),I >  > B > That never happens.  Even if HP goes bust VMS would still belong2 > to them (or the bankruptcy court).  (ie. Primos) >  > A >>then expect there to be published pretty-damned-quick a utilityn4 >>for generating certain kernel-mode logical names ! >  > @ > And what legitimate company could use that?  I know for a factB > the University's lawyers would never allow it here.  And I doubt> > many people wold be willing to put their jobs on the line by/ > doing something as blatantly illegal as that.- >  > bill  = Since the premise is incorrect, the entire argument is bogus.a  > Normal licenses *DO NOT* expire in one year, or ever.  Support= contracts might expire, but that doesn't expire your right to41 use VMS, just your right to support and upgrades."  ; You can purchase support from anyone willing to provide it,u or self-support.  = (I'm not talking about using VMS ECOs you aren't entitled to,s= but generating your own fixes, which you can do, even for then= kernel, if you have the sources.  Work-arounds, hand-holding,d; advice, etc., which probably consitute the vast majority oft9 support calls, can be provided by anyone with lots of VMSp: experience.  If HP cans VMS totally, there will be lots of2 those people, formerly employed by HP, available.)  6 The only licenses I know of which expire in a year are7 Hobbyist and DSPP licenses.  I doubt there will be much * demand for DSPP licenses if VMS is killed.     -- T John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:56:08 -0500e# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>j& Subject: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux, Message-ID: <bZmdnfgnNfVhZoHfRVn-jQ@igs.net>  3 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1768170,00.aspr& (the article has 2 pages at this link)   How to Kill Linuxu ARTICLE DATE:  02.22.05i   By  John C. DvorakF While chatting over dinner with the executives of a middleware companyC during the recent RSA conference for encryption and security in SanrL Francisco, I heard about a secret project. It concerned the development of aL version of Linux that runs smoothly as a task under Windows. The project wasJ completed and then shelved. Whether it will ever reemerge is doubtful, butK it does offer some interesting possibilities and hints as to what Microsoft  may be up to with MS-Linux.-  K The immediate usefulness of Linux running under Windows is obvious. You cansH use all the Windows drivers for all the peripherals that don't run underK Linux. Drivers have always been an issue with Linux as PC users have gottensJ spoiled with Windows driver support. Today's user wants to grab just about> anything and not worry about installing it and making it work.  J That said, there is no way Linux under Windows would be practical with allJ the overhead involved. So this notion comes to mind: How about eliminatingL the middleman? The idea here would be to cut the driver layer out of WindowsI and attach it to Linux directly. This would become MS-Linux. If MicrosofteI actually produced an MS-Linux that was the standard Linux attached to the I driver layer of Windows, giving users full Plug and Play (PnP) support ofoL all their peripherals, nobody would buy any other Linux on the market. Well,L except for the fact that Microsoft would be unable to produce such a productK without allowing the other vendors access to the driver code as part of thenK open-source Linux license arrangement (GPL). You can be sure that Microsoft K lawyers are studying this as closely as possible to see if there is any wayeK they could market a dominant Linux distribution without killing themselves.a So how could they do this?  L Open-source law is new and not completely tested. I'm certain that MicrosoftG got involved with the SCO versus Linux lawsuit partly to reach a better   understanding of how to proceed.  L Well, here's one idea: This concept will benefit only Microsoft and probablyJ result in the death of Linux altogether. Let's call it the lopped-off headE approach. Microsoft takes its distribution of Linux and sells it as aT# lopped-off head. - Continue Reading-  I That means tearing away the entire top of Linux from the driver layer-and"J that would be MS-Linux. Users who needed to add the driver layers would beI offered the standard Linux driver package, which would be attached with aeC utility program. The utility would sew the drivers back into Linux, J resulting in an OS that would be more or less the same as everyone else's.  K Or the user could pay for the Windows drivers and attach those to MS-Linux, L resulting in an OS that had the PnP benefits of Windows. I see no reason whyF this could not be kept outside the GPL and actually sold as a licensedC product exclusive to Microsoft. Thus the OS revenue stream would beo
 protected.  D Since plenty of commercial products "attach" to Linux and seem to beH protected from the GPL, I have to assume that the scenario I describe isK possible. Thus Microsoft could release its lopped-off head version of LinuxoE and make the back-end Windows driver extensions a commercial product.   B The long-term implications of such a scenario, I believe, would beH essentially to kill Linux. Microsoft's MS-Linux would quickly become theA dominant Linux and the company would begin to profit from all the J open-source development work that would go into Linux. Once the developersI saw that happen they'd stop working on Linux and it would die. After all,nG who wants to do free work that benefits Microsoft? At some point in the F future Microsoft will make its move on Linux, you can be certain. I'veK always been convinced that Microsoft's long-term Linux strategy was why theuJ company sued, then bought off, the Lindows folks, although I doubt that it would now use the Lindows name.<  K The key to competitive success here is gaining dominant market share with anE proprietary product. With Linux, Microsoft only needs that one driver9C element to be proprietary for the plan to succeed. When MS-Linux isaE announced, it will be as if Microsoft were doing the world a favor by D "joining" the Linux community. Praise will be heaped on the company.< Congratulations will flow. The end of Linux will be at hand.   ==============I  All the money HP expects to reap supporting linux will evaporate, and HP F will best be served by spinning everything to do with computing off toG shareholders in a 1:1 share push-out.  HP's printer/ink company's stockwH price will soar and they can then use their stock to do what they shouldK have done instead of buying Compaq - become vertically integrated by makingg! a takeover offer for Weyerhauser.-   --F OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style .... they just get EOL'd.   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Feb 2005 15:30:58 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.comn* Subject: Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing LinuxB Message-ID: <1109201458.816500.74650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>  + why don't they do it right and come up withf+ MS-VMS?  This is what Bill should have dones+ years ago ... windoze on VMS instead of dos-+ on alpha would run every data center in the3) country ... ms-linux will go no where ...s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:44:00 -05006# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> * Subject: Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux, Message-ID: <u92dnUUEg-beiIDfRVn-sw@igs.net>   bob@instantwhip.com wrote:- > why don't they do it right and come up withS- > MS-VMS?  This is what Bill should have donee- > years ago ... windoze on VMS instead of dosg- > on alpha would run every data center in ther+ > country ... ms-linux will go no where ...s    J Sure thing Bob.... imagine just how many schools and individuals are goingI to fork over $6k for an entry-level Itanic vs. $499 for a PC that's 'good- enough'. --- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:52:01 -0500V( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>* Subject: Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux= Message-ID: <w8KdnV3SM-SuuIDfRVn-oQ@metrocastcablevision.com>e   John Smith wrote: 5 > http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1768170,00.asp ( > (the article has 2 pages at this link) >  > How to Kill Linuxe > ARTICLE DATE:  02.22.05   E At least part of what the article describes is already reality - but kF developed from the Linux end.  IIRC someone has packaged up a wrapper > for existing Windows drivers (might be network drivers, since H WinNT/2K/XP have a very well-defined internal interface to both the top < and bottom of such drivers) such that they can run in Linux.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Feb 2005 02:30:18 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)* Subject: Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux, Message-ID: <384shqF5jbofeU1@individual.net>  , In article <bZmdnfgnNfVhZoHfRVn-jQ@igs.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > 5 > http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1768170,00.aspr( > (the article has 2 pages at this link) >  > How to Kill Linuxh > ARTICLE DATE:  02.22.05o >  > By  John C. Dvorak  E Dvorak once again shows how little he really knows about the computerv
 industry!!  H > While chatting over dinner with the executives of a middleware companyE > during the recent RSA conference for encryption and security in SanpN > Francisco, I heard about a secret project. It concerned the development of a> > version of Linux that runs smoothly as a task under Windows.  H Been there, done that.  MS bought (and now sells or provides, depending)G a prodcut called Virtual PC.  It runs Linux under Windows just fine andnI because it has a defined set of default devices it does handle the inter- 1 connect between linux and Windows device drivers.   O >                                                               The project wassL > completed and then shelved. Whether it will ever reemerge is doubtful, butM > it does offer some interesting possibilities and hints as to what Microsoft: > may be up to with MS-Linux."  F Why continue developing a new way of doing something you already have?   > M > The immediate usefulness of Linux running under Windows is obvious. You caneJ > use all the Windows drivers for all the peripherals that don't run under	 > Linux. i  J Name some of them!  Linux drivers for any useful products usually come outI within a very short time of the device becoming available publicly.  Many J companys provide drivers themselves if the device is unique enough to need one.  M >        Drivers have always been an issue with Linux as PC users have gotten L > spoiled with Windows driver support. Today's user wants to grab just about@ > anything and not worry about installing it and making it work. > L > That said, there is no way Linux under Windows would be practical with all > the overhead involved. e  G Like I said, he hasn't a clue.  I regularly run Linux, FreeBSD and evenTD Solaris under XP.  Heck, I even run Windows98 under XP (don't ask!!)G All this is on my laptop and there doesn't appear to be any appreciable D overhead.  It even lets me save state so that I don't need to reboot( everytime I need to restart one of them.  L >                        So this notion comes to mind: How about eliminatingN > the middleman? The idea here would be to cut the driver layer out of WindowsK > and attach it to Linux directly. This would become MS-Linux. If MicrosoftrK > actually produced an MS-Linux that was the standard Linux attached to thehK > driver layer of Windows, giving users full Plug and Play (PnP) support offH > all their peripherals, nobody would buy any other Linux on the market.  L Why would he possibly think something like this?  Many people would continue8 to "buy" linux simply because they don't like MS.  :-)    N >                                                                        Well,N > except for the fact that Microsoft would be unable to produce such a productM > without allowing the other vendors access to the driver code as part of thehM > open-source Linux license arrangement (GPL). You can be sure that Microsoft2M > lawyers are studying this as closely as possible to see if there is any way M > they could market a dominant Linux distribution without killing themselves.  > So how could they do this?   Simply put, they couldn't. e   > N > Open-source law is new and not completely tested. I'm certain that MicrosoftI > got involved with the SCO versus Linux lawsuit partly to reach a betterr" > understanding of how to proceed. > N > Well, here's one idea: This concept will benefit only Microsoft and probably+ > result in the death of Linux altogether. l  8 Imminent Death of Linux - News at 11.  Here we go again.  K >                                         Let's call it the lopped-off headnG > approach. Microsoft takes its distribution of Linux and sells it as an% > lopped-off head. - Continue Reading  > K > That means tearing away the entire top of Linux from the driver layer-and L > that would be MS-Linux. Users who needed to add the driver layers would beK > offered the standard Linux driver package, which would be attached with aHE > utility program. The utility would sew the drivers back into Linux,eL > resulting in an OS that would be more or less the same as everyone else's.  ) So, then why would anyone use the MS one?a   > M > Or the user could pay for the Windows drivers and attach those to MS-Linux,aN > resulting in an OS that had the PnP benefits of Windows. I see no reason whyH > this could not be kept outside the GPL and actually sold as a licensedE > product exclusive to Microsoft. Thus the OS revenue stream would bet > protected.  K So, if you can use the reall Linux drivers for free and you have to pay for- the MS drivers, why bother?2   > F > Since plenty of commercial products "attach" to Linux and seem to beJ > protected from the GPL, I have to assume that the scenario I describe isM > possible. Thus Microsoft could release its lopped-off head version of LinuxtG > and make the back-end Windows driver extensions a commercial product.   ! With little if any market for it.u   > D > The long-term implications of such a scenario, I believe, would beJ > essentially to kill Linux. Microsoft's MS-Linux would quickly become the > dominant Linux s  A I wonder how much he expects to get paid by MS for this drivel?  u  C >                and the company would begin to profit from all the L > open-source development work that would go into Linux. Once the developersK > saw that happen they'd stop working on Linux and it would die. After all,tI > who wants to do free work that benefits Microsoft? At some point in thetH > future Microsoft will make its move on Linux, you can be certain. I'veM > always been convinced that Microsoft's long-term Linux strategy was why the.L > company sued, then bought off, the Lindows folks, although I doubt that it! > would now use the Lindows name.  > M > The key to competitive success here is gaining dominant market share with aeG > proprietary product. With Linux, Microsoft only needs that one driver E > element to be proprietary for the plan to succeed. When MS-Linux isDG > announced, it will be as if Microsoft were doing the world a favor by3F > "joining" the Linux community. Praise will be heaped on the company.> > Congratulations will flow. The end of Linux will be at hand. >   G This drivel is why I stopped reading anything he had to say more than a G decade ago when he became just another PC stooge.  He should getogethercI with Jerry Pournelle and do a joint column.  They would make a great pairi1 and together I'll bet they would be even funnier.n   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:46:06 -0500e% From: "vax, 9000" <vax9000@gmail.com>t* Subject: Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux: Message-ID: <cvjltn$14c$2@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>   Bill Todd wrote:   > John Smith wrote:a6 >> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1768170,00.asp) >> (the article has 2 pages at this link)  >> i >> How to Kill Linux >> ARTICLE DATE:  02.22.05 > F > At least part of what the article describes is already reality - butG > developed from the Linux end.  IIRC someone has packaged up a wrapperd? > for existing Windows drivers (might be network drivers, sincecI > WinNT/2K/XP have a very well-defined internal interface to both the top-> > and bottom of such drivers) such that they can run in Linux.  6 Is it called colinux? It has been popular for a while. --not developed by MS.  	 vax, 90001   >  > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:14:26 -0500o( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>* Subject: Re: [OT]: Dvorak on killing Linux= Message-ID: <buGdnVt2sL4u_4DfRVn-rw@metrocastcablevision.com>a   vax, 9000 wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >  >  >>John Smith wrote:o >>6 >>>http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1768170,00.asp) >>>(the article has 2 pages at this link)e >>>t >>>How to Kill Linux >>>ARTICLE DATE:  02.22.05 >>F >>At least part of what the article describes is already reality - butG >>developed from the Linux end.  IIRC someone has packaged up a wrapper ? >>for existing Windows drivers (might be network drivers, since I >>WinNT/2K/XP have a very well-defined internal interface to both the topr> >>and bottom of such drivers) such that they can run in Linux. >  >  > Is it called colinux?e  H No - that's just a linux distribution that runs on Windows, AFAICT from 
 a quick look.@  C Another quick look found DriverLoader at Linuxant.com, and I think tG that's what I was remembering:  a facility that allows downloadable or 2B otherwise obtainable Windows driver x86 binaries to run (within a G wrapper) as x86 Linux drivers so that devices whose developers haven't lG yet gotten around to writing Linux drivers can be used - directly - on h Linux.   - bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.109 ************************