1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 27 Feb 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 116       Contents: Re: CDRECORD v. RMS defaults' Re: Checking for "file open for write". ' Re: Checking for "file open for write". ' Re: Checking for "file open for write".  FBI Alert - Computer Virus$ Has the shine come off of Microsoft?( Re: Has the shine come off of Microsoft? Re: IA64 unraveling...8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points8 Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points& Re: Problem with a DEC terminal server& Re: Problem with a DEC terminal server Re: Sayonara Tukwilla  Re: Sayonara Tukwilla  Re: Sayonara Tukwilla   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:42:59 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> % Subject: Re: CDRECORD v. RMS defaults 8 Message-ID: <l1c121t1ihd225vlime3hqachcnqkjdkde@4ax.com>  N On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:35:22 -0600 (CST), sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote:  G >   Just for the record, as I may be the only person left on the planet G >with a CD writer old enough to make a bad CD when its buffer runs dry, ? >CDRECORD can apparently be helped by non-default RMS settings.   N I had a problem a few years ago continually burning coasters with an old, slowN CD writer plus an old, slow RX2x disk. The problem was solved by disabling theP Extended File Cache with $ SET FILE  /CACHING_ATTRIBUTE = /NOCACHE on the file I was burning.   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:05:28 GMT   From: John Santos <john@egh.com>0 Subject: Re: Checking for "file open for write".+ Message-ID: <cbfUd.57928$uc.15795@trnddc04>    Hein wrote: / > "John Santos" <john@egh.com> wrote in message ' > news:wYQTd.13041$QQ3.4329@trnddc02...  > 
 >>Hein wrote:  >>Objections to the solutions: >> >>J >>>-  Polling sounded reasonable (how long does the average tranfer take?) >>% >>1) 5GB file on a WAN takes a while!  >  > I > But that's precisely why polling (as much as I dislike polling!), might  > work. N > If a transfer takes an hour, then polling every 30 seconds get you within 1%N > accuracy of the real arrival time, and at a very manageable resource cost it
 > would seem.  >  > > >>2) General philosophical objection to polling vs. interrupts >  > ( > Agreed.. but if the price is right....I > IMHO the interupt must come as a seperate, recognizable action from the 	 > sender.  >  > C >>3) What if something breaks and you are left with a partial file?  >  > I > How is an interupt, say from closing the file, going to be able to tell   > whether it was partial or not?N > It can tell cleaner, quicker that something happened, but not what happened.K > Again, only the sender know, or needs to tell up fron what is coming such J > that the receive can decide whether a valid transfer ha happened. At the: > very minimum a byte count, but probably a checksum also.  G The FTP (or whatever file transfer) server knows (or should know, don't F know enough details of the FTP protocol to be sure) whether it got allD the packets in the right order (this is supposed to be guaranteed byD TCP) and the "That's all folks!" message at the end of the file, andI that it successfully wrote the whole thing to disk.  It knows (or should  F know) that the data connection got closed normally, rather than timing? out, or the IP stack declaring that it could no longer route to  the other end, or ...   D RSTS/E used to have two kinds of "close", a normal close and a resetF close.  Reset closes happened automatically on all channels still openE when a program exited, or if the program explicitly decided to do it. B On a reset close, tentative files were automatically deleted, so aB server could create output files in tentative mode, and they'd getA zapped if anything went wrong (crash, connection abort, timeout).   D You can achieve a similar effect on VMS by using the old RSX-derived@ deaccess locks.  (No automatic deleting, but you can tell if the7 server was unhappy for some reason about the transfer.)   D A good trigger mechanism should only get triggered on a clean close.  E As for determining what went wrong when something unexpected happens, " that should be in the server logs.  @ A summary packet at the end from the sender telling the receiverC how many bytes it had transmitted up the wire, checksum, etc. would = be a nice way to implement this, but just getting a clean EOF @ indication over an "error-free" channel should be enough.  (None? of this protects you against a broken sender who says "All done ! now", when it isn't really done.)    > I >>1) This is my preferred method also, but the problem (as I've mentioned G >>before) is the client-side programmer forgetting why you are doing it I >>this way and breaking it by transferring it directly to the final name.  >  > / > Stick & Carrot. Make it their responsibility. A > You define how the receiver works and they'd better honor that.  > B >>when the customer complains that our app is no longer processing >>the files correctly.  :-(  >  > M > At which point you graceouisly point to the document/contract that explains M > how your processing works, and show that it still works that way... if they  > live by the rules. >  > F >>2) It is also a polling-based method.  (Picture Lisa and Bart in the: >>back seat saying "Are we there yet?  Are we there yet?") >  > ? > File creates, and directory changes are easier to trigger on.  >  > F >>3) Without knowing the internals of the FTP server, is a file rename >>an atomic operation? >  > - > VMS file renames are atomic (enough :-) :-)  >  > K >>>- RMS knows how to make an RMS lock. It'll do it for you and not require J >>>privs: Just try to open and you will learn the state. What's wrong with >>>that? >>H >>If your app opens the file "access read, allow none" in BASIC, (or FABC >>FAC=GET, SHR=NIL in RMS terms) and the FTP server creates it with I >>"access write, allow none (or read)" (FAB FAC=PUT, SHR=NIL or SHR=GET), $ >>then this should work fine, but... >  > , > Not sure where you are going with that....  ? If you just try to open the file and the above holds true, then @ you'll get a "file currently locked by another user" error.  I'mD just trying to verify that that is what you were referring to above, since I'm assuming it below.   > < >>1) still has the "we only received a partial file" problem >  >  > Right. >  > J >>2) It also relies on the FTP server behaving sanely, and not for exampleE >>creating the file (maybe pre-extending it), and then closing it and / >>re-opening it to do the actual data transfer.  >  > J > Yes, but any RMS/XQP/xxx lock method discussed before suffers from that.J > I'm just saying that if you consider using the fle locking, then just go > RMS.  H Right.  Rather than invent some more elaborate mechanism that just boils down to the same thing.   E Occam's razor applied to programming... "Algorithms should be just as 0 complicated as they need to be, but no more so."    F > Odd, how this 30+ year old problem has not been solved properly huh?M > VMS had/has 'SPOOL' nee FTSV (1985-ish in Valbonne :-) to deal with most of J > these issues, including a 'trigger when done, post processing function'. >    :-)   	 > Cheers,  > Hein.  >  >      --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:11:05 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com 0 Subject: Re: Checking for "file open for write".- Message-ID: <87sm3jjlg6.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   5 "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> writes:   A > I'm happy to be proved wrong but, my understanding is that on a ? > stand alone node there is *no* DLM lock. OTY or Paul or Hein?   B Good question. Just looked at what is in SYSLOA, and there is only$ one execlet as I can see for Alpha.   ? I'm pretty sure that Vaxen used to load a single or distributed : LM as vms loaded up the CPU, MSCP and cluster loadables.    E It would make a lot of sense to only use the DLM so as to not run the B risk of interesting times coming up between the LM and the DLM. Or( a repeat of the half clustered foobar...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:03:03 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com 0 Subject: Re: Checking for "file open for write".- Message-ID: <87wtsvjltk.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   * "Hein" <hein.nomail@hp.nomail.com> writes:  F > Odd, how this 30+ year old problem has not been solved properly huh?M > VMS had/has 'SPOOL' nee FTSV (1985-ish in Valbonne :-) to deal with most of J > these issues, including a 'trigger when done, post processing function'.  D So run, don't walk to Freeware 7, and pony up to the bar for whoever put it there ;)    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2005 00:14:51 -0800" From: washington2452@sbcglobal.net# Subject: FBI Alert - Computer Virus C Message-ID: <1109492091.774204.159470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   ( FBI Alerts Public to Recent Email Scheme  E The FBI warned the public to avoid falling victim to an on-going mass @ e-mail scheme wherein computer users receive unsolicited e-mailsC purportedly sent by the FBI.  The e-mails then direct recipients to B open an attachment and answer questions. The attachments contain a computer virus.   $ To read the full text, please go to:1 http://www.contactomagazine.com/emailscam0226.htm    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:14:24 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> - Subject: Has the shine come off of Microsoft? 8 Message-ID: <GtlUd.2260$kz6.33147@news20.bellglobal.com>  $ Has the shine come off of Microsoft?D Whether you agree with this article or not, it is still a good read.  . http://abcnews.go.com/Business/print?id=508399    
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:47:34 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> 1 Subject: Re: Has the shine come off of Microsoft? B Message-ID: <1109522062.bbdc5c385b5e7dfd1b22bdffe7cfe0c3@teranews>   Neil Rieck wrote: & > Has the shine come off of Microsoft?0 > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/print?id=508399  H I concur almost entirely. What is not sure is whether Microsoft is dying@ of old age, or just seing its overblown monopoly reduced to more sustainable levels.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:56:49 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com  Subject: Re: IA64 unraveling... - Message-ID: <871xb3l0oe.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:   F > IBM dropping support for IA64 is no big surprise. But Intel droppingF > development of support chips to make better use of Montecito ??? Not@ > exactly great news. Has Intel announced other new chipsets for, > montecito to replace the one they canned ?  F They said nothing new till '07. Now where have we heard THAT before...  F I think we are not meant to think about `what chipset' for the future.A IBM  I suspect have descided to not pour a bucket of folding into  a short dead end black hole.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 27 Feb 2005 08:03:41 GMT2 From: "Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow>A Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points ? Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-kJqEzSui5K47@dave2_os2.home.ours>   F On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 04:39:23 UTC, rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) wrote:    <Snip~   > > < > >Enclosures?  the tooling is in place, and steel is steel. > G > Do you design and buy many enclosures?  Do you have any idea how many L > details can be added or left out in a "simple" enclosure?  The details allK > cost money.  Steel is NOT just steel, and plastic is NOT just plastic.  A E > change in color scheme costs significant design money, for example.   @ Maybe but both Alpha and Itanium (could) use the same steel and  plastic, oder?  C > >CPUs? Ok, what's the cost of an Alpha CPU, and an itanic, to HP?  > A > Yeah, like I'm going to post that here.  The difference is BIG.   ? Yeah and probably only because of the subsidy/development cost   arithmetic.   ! > >Disks? No possible difference.  > @ > Disks are the same.  The two styles of front-loading, hot-swapK > storageworks bricks are quite different, and I expect the costs are quite  > different as well.  D But you'd agree that if the connections/connectors are the same the B cost should be about the same, regardless of the CPU they're used 0 with? Assuming that the enclosures were similar.   O > >Motherboard and components?  They're all in production, just keep producing.  > I > Yup, that's easy.  Just sign the checks to all the suppliers.  Have you K > designed and bought many high-performance circuit boards lately?  This is G > an area where lots of tradeoffs are possible.  Added costs accumulate  > pretty fast.  D Not having recently looked inside either box. I can't comment. (The E last one I looked inside was an AlphaStation 200, which was meant to  E be a low-cost solution. We had over 40 at one time. Most are gone so  F you can knock those off the 411,000 BTW. I could look inside our DS20 F I suppose. OTOH that just looks like a classic x86 server box from the	 outside).   E I do have to wonder about the economies of scale and special-to-type  C chip sets, bus designs and back-planes. Maybe the cost differences  F really only come into play at the larger box sizes with lots of CPUs. C But at that price class, I'm not so sure that the relevant capital  F cost difference plays that great a role. Assuming the customer _wants_F to use VMS because of the OS's strengths. I'd leave that assessment to John Smith.    ? > >Memory?  Another commodity.  And IA64 seems to require more.  > L > Memory chips are pretty much commodities.  DIMMs and RIMMs often are not. E > If you think sourcing memory components for servers is trivial, you K > probably haven't thought about it very much.  But memory cost is probably 7 > not a big differentiator between alpha and integrity.   H > >Where is your extra cost to continue to pump out DS15s, DS25s, ES45s? > D > Just buy the parts and put them together.  Same as rx1600, rx2600,H > rx4640.  Or your run-off-the-mill PC.  We should expect all of them to > cost the same, right?   E As a PC ?- hardly. As Neil Rieck points out in another post, most PC   don't have ECC ram.   J > >Possibly the big stuff has rather high cost low volume parts.  But the  > >design is over. > I > All the alphaservers and all the integrity servers (and all the PA-RISC # > servers) are low volume products.   F Back to my economies of scale wonderings. How to take an enclosure andF apply them to that box  to be able to have it contain systems based on= the different CPUs, storage that your organisation produces.     G > >I think it's time for this claim to gain some substance, or go away.  > L > Take it or leave it; I really don't care.  Your comments seem particularlyK > naive.  I don't think you want information; you want to argue.  I'll take  > your advice and go away.  B I read your post and had exactly the same thought as Dave Frobie. E 'He's said that before but I don't remember it being explained.' The  D comment/analysis may well be true but it does have the same ring of E hokum that the justification for alphacide had. I suspect Bill might    say that it _is_ the same hokum.   --   Cheers - Dave W.   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2005 02:08:02 -0800 From: icerq4a@spray.seA Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points C Message-ID: <1109498882.016678.161610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Dave Weatherall wrote: > C > > >I think it's time for this claim to gain some substance, or go  away.  > > A > > Take it or leave it; I really don't care.  Your comments seem  particularlyB > > naive.  I don't think you want information; you want to argue.	 I'll take  > > your advice and go away. > C > I read your post and had exactly the same thought as Dave Frobie. B > 'He's said that before but I don't remember it being explained.'  C Explained (with as much information is available to the public) but E possibly not understood, and to what point, as Robert said, the usual E suspects here don't want information, they usually only want to argue 1 and/or get their pre-determinded rants qualified.   9 I find the treatment of HP/VMS employees disgusting here. = Often rants and very seldom a thanks when someone contributes  information.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:01:01 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> A Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points B Message-ID: <1109512080.a6e6e321325675f9e7cf395c414a0dca@teranews>   Neil Rieck wrote: I > Despite the unilateral love affair that exits between Quebec and France K > along with the fact that most Quebecers watch TV-Cinq (TV-5), my previous G > comments were based upon things I've heard from colleagues working in  > Montreal.   F There are strong business ties between Qubec and France, not only forA food/wine and cultural products, but also heavy industry, but the F average person only knows europe on a tourist basis. In the industrial@ sector, companies such as Bombardier are fully aware of Europe'sH economic power. It has large investments in railway and aerospace plantsG in Europe and also lots of serious customers, especially now that north - american airlines are not buying new planes).   G Air France has a disproportionate presence at Montreal (considering the D relatively small size of Montreal, especially in economic terms). InB fact, Montreal will be 1 of 2 north american cities to get the AirD France A380 service, the other being New York ( a city whose size is3 definitely big enough to warrant such a big plane).   B There was a period prior to 2000 where CNN broadcasted from LondonC during evening hours, and that gave us some real worldwide business @ news, while the normal CNN broadcast from New York/Atlanta neverG provided business news from outside the USA. But after 2000, CNN became G more focused on the USA and put reruns of the previous night's programs H during the overnight hours instead of the live news from London. So whenH I dumped cable to go to satellite, I had the option to get BBC World andE that was extremely refreshing. Before going to bed, you can watch the G morning business news from europe and asia and that puts so many things  into perspective.   B I think that even London has realised thet Europe is becoming veryG important economically. The fact that german and french stock exchanges B are fighting to buy the LSE is a good indication that while LondonH remains important, it is no longer the sole centre of European business.  H Now, with more and more commonality for environmental laws in Europe, itE actually makes business sense because with a single process, you gain H access to such a huge market. And HP would be stupid to prematurely stopG selling Alphas in europe if there is still demand for them.  Alphas and F Pa_Riscs and IA64s can't be all that different from a components pointF of view. They all utilize quality parts (as opposed to el-cheapo parts for wintel low end stuff).  F HP could have worked to get some exemption for the current models (theC last ones for Alpha) to last a few extra years if it didn't want to F change any capacitors or other nasty component with nasty chemicals in5 it. (although most of the focus seems to be on CRTs).   E Where there is a will, there is a way. And HP clearly does not have a D will to extend Alpha's life. While the 2006 time frame may have beenF reasonable in 2001 when we were promised thatIA64 would beat the pantsH off Alpha in 2003 and VMS be ready on IA64 well before Alpha sales wouldF go, the reality is that for whatever reasons, VMS will not have a fullG year of commercial availability on the full range of HP's IA64 machines E before the last sale, and that is not enough time to get customers to D not only plan budgets, but also migration strategies etc, especiallyA when you consider the number of applications that won't be ported ) because vendors no longer develop on VMS.   H HP's goal should not to work to justify the existence of IA64. It should@ be to provide customers with the smoothest running enterprise ITG platforms that require the least disturbances from the point of view of > customers. And a forced migration to IA64 is a huge and costly$ disturbance for the large customers.  D And what about GS customers who may need to add a few CPU modules toE their mainframe in a few years ? Does this mean that after 2006, they 
 can't ????   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:08:53 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> A Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points 8 Message-ID: <TolUd.2216$kz6.32427@news20.bellglobal.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  < news:1109512080.a6e6e321325675f9e7cf395c414a0dca@teranews... > Neil Rieck wrote: J >> Despite the unilateral love affair that exits between Quebec and FranceL >> along with the fact that most Quebecers watch TV-Cinq (TV-5), my previousH >> comments were based upon things I've heard from colleagues working in >> Montreal. > H > There are strong business ties between Qubec and France, not only forC > food/wine and cultural products, but also heavy industry, but the H > average person only knows europe on a tourist basis. In the industrialB > sector, companies such as Bombardier are fully aware of Europe'sJ > economic power. It has large investments in railway and aerospace plantsI > in Europe and also lots of serious customers, especially now that north / > american airlines are not buying new planes).    I agree.   > I > Air France has a disproportionate presence at Montreal (considering the F > relatively small size of Montreal, especially in economic terms). InD > fact, Montreal will be 1 of 2 north american cities to get the AirF > France A380 service, the other being New York ( a city whose size is5 > definitely big enough to warrant such a big plane).    I agree.   > D > There was a period prior to 2000 where CNN broadcasted from LondonE > during evening hours, and that gave us some real worldwide business B > news, while the normal CNN broadcast from New York/Atlanta neverI > provided business news from outside the USA. But after 2000, CNN became I > more focused on the USA and put reruns of the previous night's programs J > during the overnight hours instead of the live news from London. So whenJ > I dumped cable to go to satellite, I had the option to get BBC World andG > that was extremely refreshing. Before going to bed, you can watch the I > morning business news from europe and asia and that puts so many things  > into perspective.    I agree.   > D > I think that even London has realised thet Europe is becoming veryI > important economically. The fact that german and french stock exchanges D > are fighting to buy the LSE is a good indication that while LondonJ > remains important, it is no longer the sole centre of European business. >   M Now this is what I mean about a provincial view of the world (from a western  M hemisphere point of view). While Canadian politicians stir up French-English  H cultural turmoil, the Europeans (including London) discarded this small L minded thinking quite a long time ago. The first treaty to form the EEC was ? signed at Rome in 1957. See the following URL for more details: / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Community G The air-plane known as the Concorde got its name from a British-French  G alliance to produce some pretty neat technology; like-wise the Chunnel  K allows French high-speed trains to move freely between Paris and London in  
 under 2 hours   M p.s. After 40 years of making precice changes to their European economies to  F allow for free trade, portable pensions, and a common currency (which L Britain has still not adopted), North American politicians got wind of this H and attempted (in knee-jerk fashion) to quickly make drastic changes to L North-American free trade in order to form a North-American free trade zone  as a response.  J > Now, with more and more commonality for environmental laws in Europe, itG > actually makes business sense because with a single process, you gain J > access to such a huge market. And HP would be stupid to prematurely stopI > selling Alphas in europe if there is still demand for them.  Alphas and H > Pa_Riscs and IA64s can't be all that different from a components pointH > of view. They all utilize quality parts (as opposed to el-cheapo parts > for wintel low end stuff). > H > HP could have worked to get some exemption for the current models (theE > last ones for Alpha) to last a few extra years if it didn't want to H > change any capacitors or other nasty component with nasty chemicals in7 > it. (although most of the focus seems to be on CRTs).  > G > Where there is a will, there is a way. And HP clearly does not have a F > will to extend Alpha's life. While the 2006 time frame may have beenH > reasonable in 2001 when we were promised thatIA64 would beat the pantsJ > off Alpha in 2003 and VMS be ready on IA64 well before Alpha sales wouldH > go, the reality is that for whatever reasons, VMS will not have a fullI > year of commercial availability on the full range of HP's IA64 machines G > before the last sale, and that is not enough time to get customers to F > not only plan budgets, but also migration strategies etc, especiallyC > when you consider the number of applications that won't be ported + > because vendors no longer develop on VMS.  > J > HP's goal should not to work to justify the existence of IA64. It shouldB > be to provide customers with the smoothest running enterprise ITI > platforms that require the least disturbances from the point of view of @ > customers. And a forced migration to IA64 is a huge and costly& > disturbance for the large customers. > F > And what about GS customers who may need to add a few CPU modules toG > their mainframe in a few years ? Does this mean that after 2006, they  > can't ???? >   M While I agree with most of this, I must admit that I have bigger allegiances  J to OpenVMS than I do Alpha. A few years back I was sad to see my VAX-6430 F rolled out the door (it was like loosing an old friend). But the used I Alpha-4100 which replaced it ran OpenVMS faster, took up less space, was  J easier to cool, and was 10 times cheaper (comparing new VAX to new Alpha) M which thrilled my employer to no end. At this point I'm not yet a big fan of  K IA64 but I feel that a few years down the road we might not be having this  
 conversation.   I (ps. If somewhere down the road the IA64 boxes end up being much cheaper  I than Alpha boxes, I might just be able to slow my employer's love affair   with Microsoft.)  K On a related note, I get the "feeling" that Europeans are starting to take  H OpenVMS much more seriously than LINUX; and this can only bode well for  OpenVMS Engineering and H-P.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:39:07 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> A Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points B Message-ID: <1109521554.db28e6f1f7b4ac0eeada9fc8536d6bcb@teranews>   Neil Rieck wrote: H > The air-plane known as the Concorde got its name from a British-French2 > alliance to produce some pretty neat technology;  C Concorde, like its successor, Airbus, is a perfect example of small F economies realising they can't compete and must work together to buildH something big. While Airbus officially started in the 1970s, it *really*? started on the mid 1980s when it began the A320 project. It had G negligible market share at that time, and within about 10-15 years, had @ achieved 50% market share against Boeing even with Boeing having purchased McDonnel Douglas.   M > North-American free trade in order to form a North-American free trade zone  > as a response.  F There are HUGE and vast differences between the EU and NAFTA. NAFTA isC really just import duties and some added things to ease movement of H people (although since sept 2001, those are basically back to worse than they were before NAFTA).  F The EU has a huge sense of community to it, and they now have their EUG parliament with specific jurisdictions and its own EU parliament. It is F far more than just import duties that are lifted. And it is also aboutH equalising standard of living and economies within the EU. For instance,B Spain and Ireland greatly benefitted from EU membership because ofW massive EU infrastructure investments in those countries, subsidized by France/Germany.     N > While I agree with most of this, I must admit that I have bigger allegiances > to OpenVMS than I do Alpha.   G The problem is that IA64 is not seen as a viable platform, at least not B at this point in time. That is why HP-UX customers continue to buyH Pa-Risc based systems with HP having (I think) one more iteration of theD chip left in the plans. So why stop sales of Alpha now if Pa-Risc is still selling ?   F The issue here is that since VMS isn't exactly healthy, customers needE to be given more time before they are forced to embark on a migration H project. And since the future of IA64 beyond 2007 is not clear, customerF would like the opportunity to continue to stay on Alpha until at leastB that time, at which point they'll know whether IA64 is a long term> solution or if the 8086 (or whatever) is a long term solution.  F And if IA64 is de-emphasized between now and 2007, how many more yearsF of waiting before VMS runs on the new platform (lets say 8086 for sakeF of discussion). If Alphas have already been widthdrawn from market, itG will put VMS is a very difficult situation with no platforms available.   D Continuing Alpha sales would be the wise and save move for HP and itH wouldn't cost it much and probably generate more profit and preserve the( remaining VMS customer base much better.  H Furthermore, since HP is now headless, I find it quite strange that theyH would have chosen now to change the "at least until 2006" to "until septE 30 2006" for sales of Alphas. You,d think they woudl want to wait for E the new CEO to com in, you'd think they'd want to wait until Ottelini H officially takes the help at Intel in a couple of months before changing. that roadmap to a fixed Alpha retirement date.  H It is just plain stupid to burn the last remaining bridges at this pointH in time. They would be much better off postponing announcing such a hard "last sales" date.    L > On a related note, I get the "feeling" that Europeans are starting to takeI > OpenVMS much more seriously than LINUX; and this can only bode well for  > OpenVMS Engineering and H-P.   Why do you say this ?   E With London moving to Windows, if Deutche Brse buys LSE, what do you A think is more likely to happen ? My bet is on LSE imposing its IT : infrastructure on Deutche Brse than the other way around.  B There may be a greater percentage of corportaions with "mature" ITH mentality who are able to decide on merit rathen than on current trends,. but Windows is still very prominent in Europe.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:29:26 +0800a From: prep@prep.synonet.comsA Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few points0- Message-ID: <87k6oujfm1.fsf@prep.synonet.com>n  ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:i  G > What new regs are involved?  Where?  What's in a DS15 that is so much0 > of a problem?o  G Lead and cadmium mainly. The switch from tinned leads on ICs is the big  hit.   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:22:27 -0500u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>kA Subject: Re: OpenVMS Seminar in Toronto (2005-02-24) a few pointsiB Message-ID: <1109527750.253056c2a4aa4ecc2fff6bb595726378@teranews>   prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:I > Lead and cadmium mainly. The switch from tinned leads on ICs is the big  > hit.    G Wouldn't chip manufacturers perform this chance by default on all their  commercial chips ?  G I can understand alpha-specific chips that have already been fabbed and,* stockpiled. That is fairly hard to change.  D But for the rest of the machine, woudln't components be more or lessD industry standard (as opposed to custom made) and thus automatically# benefit from changes to the leads ?-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:52:40 -0800 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>/ Subject: Re: Problem with a DEC terminal serveru/ Message-ID: <BE46E678.7DF5%roktsci@comcast.net>s   On 2/26/05 7:17 PM, in articleE BZaUd.81854$Th1.81032@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "The Eightht( Doctor" <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> wrote:   > Hello from Gregg C LevinegL > I have here a DECserver 90L+. According to the manual which I have here, IJ > connected a PC to one of its ports, using a temporary plug. Then set the > terminal kI > software to a default of 9600,8,n,1. (Which I suspect isn't the correctt > settings.) And oO > then when I turned the T/S on, and pressed enter, twice, instead of getting a 	 > prompt >L > sequence, I got garbage. Does anyone know the correct way to do a "factory	 > reset" h > for the thing? > -----O! > Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot nett! > "This signature isn't at home."  > L I'm not familiar with that particular model of DECServer, but all the ones IJ know of can be reset to factory defaults by pressing and holding the resetL button, and while continuing to hold it in, pull the power then plug it back! in, then release after 2 seconds.h   Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:47:40 +0100g, From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems.dotweg@zonnet.nl>/ Subject: Re: Problem with a DEC terminal serverm, Message-ID: <38dtvkF5lrqecU1@individual.net>  @ "The Eighth Doctor" <drwho8__NOTME__@att.net> schreef in bericht@ news:BZaUd.81854$Th1.81032@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Hello from Gregg C LevinenL > I have here a DECserver 90L+. According to the manual which I have here, IJ > connected a PC to one of its ports, using a temporary plug. Then set the terminalI > software to a default of 9600,8,n,1. (Which I suspect isn't the correcto settings.) AndE > then when I turned the T/S on, and pressed enter, twice, instead ofr getting a promptL > sequence, I got garbage. Does anyone know the correct way to do a "factory reset" > for the thing? > -----p! > Gregg drwho8 atsign att dot net ! > "This signature isn't at home."o >f  - What happens if you use 9600,7,n,1 on the PC?r   Hans   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:40:40 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)i Subject: Re: Sayonara TukwillaL Message-ID: <rdeininger-2702050840380001@user-105n8lh.dialup.mindspring.com>  C In article <1109483978.637780.215170@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,c icerq4a@spray.se wrote:s  + >> Yes, there's something new in the wings.  > = >I guess zx2 and sx1000(with a new name) with 667 Mhz FSB...?s >for Montecito and Montvale.  G There's some confustion in terminology in this area.  The FSB transfersrH data on both edges of the clock.  A 200 MHz FSB does 400 M transfers/secJ (MT/s).  HP tends to think in terms of MHz, while Intel likes the sound of* bigger numbers so they often quote MT/s.    P 667 MHz would be 1334 MT/s.  Is that what you expect for Montecito and Montvale?  P The current crop of entry-level Integrity servers run the FSB at 200 or 267 MHz.  F (For those unfamiliar with the jargon, the Front-Side Bus (FSB) is theH data path that connects the IA64 CPUs, the memory controller, and the IO controller.  Faster is better.)y ...b   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:54:08 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Sayonara Tukwilla= Message-ID: <cP-dnXYHmbjclL_fRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com>p   Robert Deininger wrote:n   ...c  R > The current crop of entry-level Integrity servers run the FSB at 200 or 267 MHz.  E That's in itself interesting:  how long have Itanics themselves been sH able to support the faster of those two bus rates (in a fully-populated  4-processor module)?  I (By the way, what's an 'entry-level Integrity server', anyway?  Are zx1s e+ considered part of the Integrity line now?)i   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Feb 2005 10:41:44 -0800 From: icerq4a@spray.se Subject: Re: Sayonara TukwillaC Message-ID: <1109529704.007365.250660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>e   Robert Deininger wrote:-E > In article <1109483978.637780.215170@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,  > icerq4a@spray.se wrote:n >d- > >> Yes, there's something new in the wings.> > >?? > >I guess zx2 and sx1000(with a new name) with 667 Mhz FSB...?A > >for Montecito and Montvale. > ? > There's some confustion in terminology in this area.  The FSBa	 transferso< > data on both edges of the clock.  A 200 MHz FSB does 400 M
 transfers/secuC > (MT/s).  HP tends to think in terms of MHz, while Intel likes thej sound of* > bigger numbers so they often quote MT/s. > D > 667 MHz would be 1334 MT/s.  Is that what you expect for Montecito
 and Montvale?f >hF > The current crop of entry-level Integrity servers run the FSB at 200 or 267 MHz.) >iD > (For those unfamiliar with the jargon, the Front-Side Bus (FSB) is the G > data path that connects the IA64 CPUs, the memory controller, and thea IO! > controller.  Faster is better.)t > ...i  E OK, you are ofcourse correct, but Intel and HP says 400/533 _Mhz_ andfD not MT/s in their descriptions. So, in real terms, I mean 333.333...G Mhz, and that is what Intel has said that Montecito will be able to do.l   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.116 ************************