0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 18 Jan 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 36      Contents:1 Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org 1 Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org 1 Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org 1 Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org  Re: apache openvms download kit  Re: apache openvms download kit  Re: apache openvms download kit  carly(tm) transcipt  Error in C++ compiler  Re: Error in C++ compiler  Re: Error in C++ compiler % Re: HP Press release about 18th event % Re: HP Press release about 18th event , HP service for a Puerto Rico Alpha, the saga ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Livermore transcript1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement  Marcello transcript % RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium 8 OT: "Membership" in Usenet Groups (was Re: ipod anyone?) Re: Region coded VMS next? Re: Region coded VMS next?	 Re: Reorg  Re: Solution Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution1 Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) 1 Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) 1 Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) 1 Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)  Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop9 Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) 5 Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) 3 [Ann] Automatically generate PDF on VMS with PDFlib   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:35:17 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>: Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org2 Message-ID: <V0aHd.6019$9Z4.2430@news.cpqcorp.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  > John Smith wrote:  > ; >>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/17/2467177  >  > ' > Two interesting bits in that article:  > I > New compilers are responsible for a lot of improved performance for the J > new systems. Will those new compilers be on VMS 8.2 for IA64 ? Or is VMSJ > still stuck with Merced era compilers ? (That whose "donate compilers toA > Intel" thing has created a hell of a lot of confusion for VMS).  >   H All of the compilers that will ship with OpenVMS I64 V8.2 are tuned for C Itanium 2 out of the box.  If you poke around, you'll find various  G compilers with /ARCHITECTURE=MERCED qualifiers to revert to the Merced  H tuning, but that setting isn't supported since OpenVMS I64 itself isn't & supporting any Merced-based platforms.     --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:02:56 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org3 Message-ID: <NafAqZWI0NWM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <6VWGd.5987$vz4.3769@news.cpqcorp.net>, "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes: ? > VMS set the plan, set the schedule, and the strategy for what > > we are supporting.  Not Carly.  The first systems needed are? > smaller systems, to get things moving and ported.  The GS1280 D > is still a formidable system today, so there isn't a critical need > for a SuperDome.  G    In fact, the customers made it quite clear to Rich Marcelo that they >    wanted small, cheap systems to start out on.  Developers in>    particular.  And where else do apps come from to sell those    superdomes?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:58:26 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> : Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org, Message-ID: <41ED4E3C.2A0C3804@teksavvy.com>   John Reagan wrote:K > > New compilers are responsible for a lot of improved performance for the  > > new systems.    I > All of the compilers that will ship with OpenVMS I64 V8.2 are tuned for  > Itanium 2 out of the box.     F Ok, but HP said that a good part of performance improvements announcedD today come from new compilers for Itanium-2. Does VMS have these new, compilers, or the older Itanium2 compilers ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:22:40 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>: Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org1 Message-ID: <QtcHd.6040$Vb5.607@news.cpqcorp.net>    JF Mezei wrote:  > John Reagan wrote: > J >>>New compilers are responsible for a lot of improved performance for the >>>new systems.  >  > I >>All of the compilers that will ship with OpenVMS I64 V8.2 are tuned for  >>Itanium 2 out of the box.  >  >  > H > Ok, but HP said that a good part of performance improvements announcedF > today come from new compilers for Itanium-2. Does VMS have these new. > compilers, or the older Itanium2 compilers ?  G I don't know the context of today's announcement.  An "improvement" is  E comparing some "older" platform to a "newer" platform.  What was the   points of comparison?   E I also don't know how to answer your "old" vs "new" compilers as the  I compilers we're shipping is the first on the OpenVMS I64 platform.  They  I are the same compilers we've been using for E8.0, E8,1 and now V8.2.  We  I didn't decide at the last minute to whip up a bunch of new compilers for   no good reason.   I The compilers have been undergoing performance improvements from E8.0 to  H E8.1 and now V8.2.  We have additional performance work planned as well.   --   John Reagan / HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 01:36:53 -0800 From: mb301@hotmail.com ( Subject: Re: apache openvms download kitC Message-ID: <1106041012.988708.268250@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    Nigel Barker wrote: 9 > On 17 Jan 2005 06:44:33 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote:  > B > >Please could someone tell me the URL of the Download kit is for apache? , > >I have openvms 7.2-2 do I need a license? >  > Here you are. ? http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws.html E > Secure Web Server (based on Apache) is licensed & supported as part  of the base & > OS so no need for any extra license. >  > -- > Nigel Barker! > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    mmmm,  That does say:- 8  Version 2.0 requires OpenVMS Version 7.3-1 or higher!!!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:04:10 +0100 1 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= ( Subject: Re: apache openvms download kit7 Message-ID: <41ecdf1c$0$19436$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>    > Nigel Barker wrote:  > 9 >>On 17 Jan 2005 06:44:33 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote:  >> >>B >>>Please could someone tell me the URL of the Download kit is for > 	 > apache?  > , >>>I have openvms 7.2-2 do I need a license? >> >>Here you are.  > A > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws.html  > E >>Secure Web Server (based on Apache) is licensed & supported as part  > 
 > of the base  > & >>OS so no need for any extra license. >> >>-- >>Nigel Barker! >>Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur  >  >  > mmmm,  > That does say:- : >  Version 2.0 requires OpenVMS Version 7.3-1 or higher!!! >   H And worse the new HP SSL Version 1.2 for OpenVMS require 7.3-2 on alpha.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:17:19 GMT ! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com> ( Subject: Re: apache openvms download kit8 Message-ID: <sqqpu0pgjc1p6ob5b92f4l62dlh2ul1nkc@4ax.com>  7 On 18 Jan 2005 01:36:53 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote:    >  >Nigel Barker wrote:: >> On 17 Jan 2005 06:44:33 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote: >>C >> >Please could someone tell me the URL of the Download kit is for  >apache?- >> >I have openvms 7.2-2 do I need a license?  >> >> Here you are.@ >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws.htmlF >> Secure Web Server (based on Apache) is licensed & supported as part >of the base' >> OS so no need for any extra license.  >> >> --  >> Nigel Barker " >> Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur >  >mmmm, >That does say:-9 > Version 2.0 requires OpenVMS Version 7.3-1 or higher!!!   = Version 1.3 requires VMS 7.2-2. There is a link on that page.   I Here is a link to a matrix of supported versions of VMS, SWS plus all the 6 associated products e.g. TCP/IP Services, MOD_PERL etcH http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_versions.html   -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:33:46 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: carly(tm) transcipt, Message-ID: <xf2dnRlEgYDn1XDcRVn-3w@igs.net>   No VMS for you.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:45:23 +0100 9 From: "Robert Trawiski" <robert.trawinski@softax.com.pl>  Subject: Error in C++ compiler. Message-ID: <csiiit$2sj$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>   Simple CXX file:   #include <string>    void func(void)  {     string p2 = "Part 2";      throw string("Part 1") + p2;  }   2 When I compile it I see compiler dump information:    < %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual  address=000000000000& 0004, PC=000000000042D008, PS=0000001B/ %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows J   image    module    routine             line      rel PC           abs PC?  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  me_do_argument 139577 0000000000005C68   000000000042D008(  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  me_generate_call?                                        139263 0000000000004E20   000000000042C1C01  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  walk_operation_expression ?                                        141696 000000000000A844   0000000000431BE4'  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  walk_expression ?                                        140533 00000000000086B0   000000000042FA501  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  walk_operation_expression ?                                        141788 000000000000AC0C   0000000000431FAC'  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  walk_expression ?                                        140533 00000000000086B0   000000000042FA501  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  walk_operation_expression ?                                        141801 000000000000AC6C   000000000043200C'  CXX$COMPILER  ME_EXPR  walk_expression ?                                        140533 00000000000086B0   000000000042FA50?  CXX$COMPILER  ME_STMT  walk_statement 140676 0000000000004214   00000000004454C4+  CXX$COMPILER  ME_STMT  walk_statement_list ?                                        136785 0000000000000664   0000000000441914,  CXX$COMPILER  ME_STMT  walk_block_statement?                                        139265 00000000000027EC   0000000000443A9C?  CXX$COMPILER  ME_STMT  walk_statement 140726 00000000000049A8   0000000000445C58?  CXX$COMPILER  ME_FUNC  walk_routine   144135 000000000000285C   0000000000434FCC?  CXX$COMPILER  ME  walk_scope_routines 139830 00000000000011DC   000000000041956C?  CXX$COMPILER  ME  me_driver           136270 00000000000007B4   0000000000418B443  CXX$COMPILER  COMPILE  dec_exx_back_end_one_o_file ?                                        170688 0000000000001AD8   00000000003F0DB8(  CXX$COMPILER  COMPILE  dec_exx_back_end?                                        169923 0000000000001314   00000000003F05F4?  CXX$COMPILER  CFE  edg_main            55960 0000000000000214   000000000044F464?  CXX$COMPILER  COMPILE  gem_xx_compile 171001 0000000000002214   00000000003F14F4?  CXX$COMPILER  GEM_CP_VMS  GEM_CP_MAIN   2603 00000000000018CC   0000000000684CAC?  CXX$COMPILER                               0 0000000000994434   0000000000994434?                                             0 FFFFFFFF80267ED4   FFFFFFFF80267ED4    
 $ CXX/VERSION , Compaq C++ V6.5-004 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2   All patches on VMS.   > How can I send information about this error to HP engineering?     A propos. Workaround is:  '    throw string(string("Part 1") + p2);       M Please don't say it is not elegent to throw string as an exception (it's not  	 my code).    Robert     ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:21:13 -0600 6 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler>" Subject: Re: Error in C++ compilerD Message-ID: <craigberry-9DB412.07211318012005@news.isp.giganews.com>  . In article <csiiit$2sj$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>,;  "Robert Trawiski" <robert.trawinski@softax.com.pl> wrote:    > Simple CXX file: >  > #include <string>  >  > void func(void)  > {  >    string p2 = "Part 2"; > ! >    throw string("Part 1") + p2;  > }  > 4 > When I compile it I see compiler dump information: >  > > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual  > address=000000000000   snip >  > $ CXX/VERSION . > Compaq C++ V6.5-004 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2  & The compiler crash does not occur with  
 $ cxx/version , Compaq C++ V6.5-039 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1  F so it appears the problem has already been fixed and you just need to - get your compiler up to the latest ECO level.    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 07:51:33 -0800 From: uli_bellgardt@hotmail.com " Subject: Re: Error in C++ compilerC Message-ID: <1106063493.424404.191060@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    Robert Trawi=F1ski wrote:  > Simple CXX file: >  > #include <string>  >  > void func(void)  > {  >    string p2 =3D "Part 2"; > ! >    throw string("Part 1") + p2;  > }  > 4 > When I compile it I see compiler dump information: >  >[...] > All patches on VMS.  >   D You may want to download the patch named cxxae01065 (or a newer one,B if available). While I could reproduce the compiler crash with CXX	 V6.5-004, @ the newer CXX V6.5-048 (this is the one I got with the mentioned* patch)translates the code without problem.   Regards, -Uli   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:14:23 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) . Subject: Re: HP Press release about 18th eventL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1801050614250001@user-105n829.dialup.mindspring.com>  8 In article <41EC9517.8050607@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:   >John Smith wrote: >  >> Keith Parris wrote: >>   >>>JF Mezei wrote: >>> 5 >>>>   HP (NYSE:HPQ)(Nasdaq:HPQ) today announced that 4 >>>>   in its fiscal year 2004 the company surpassed* >>>>   $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity4 >>>>   server-related solutions, marking a milestone4 >>>>   in the growing popularity of the servers as a5 >>>>   leading choice for business' most demanding IT  >>>>   workloads.  >>>>F >>>This is quite a significant number. And it can only get better with! >>>the VMS announcement tomorrow.  >>> B >>> > (so much about not being allowed to disclose number prior to >>>quarterly numbers)  >>> G >>>Note that this data covers fiscal year 2004. What you aren't hearing G >>>about here is how much has been sold in Q1FY2005. That would be data ! >>>covered by the "quiet period".  >>>  >>   >>  M >> "surpassed $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity server-*related* solutions, L >> marking a milestone in the growing popularity of the servers as a leading4 >> choice for business' most demanding IT workloads.   ...     K >My only question is how much of the "software, storage, and services" was   >purchased for Alphas?  D Evidently none of it, at least as I understand the phrase "Integrity server-related".    I Look out!  There's another chunk of sky falling, and it's headed our way!    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:59:32 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com . Subject: Re: HP Press release about 18th event- Message-ID: <87y8eqr7uz.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:    > John Smith wrote:   M >> "surpassed $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity server-*related* solutions,   I > Remember that another article explained this quite well. They lumped in 5 > lots of stuff including all storage related sales.    ? > (A bit like improving the PC business by including printers).   G That's an efficiency thing; the red ink does not have to travel as far.   > Anyone remember what the previous brag numbers for SW kit was?   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 07:32:14 -0800 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com5 Subject: HP service for a Puerto Rico Alpha, the saga C Message-ID: <1106062334.401574.142510@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   @ Early last year we started the ball rolling to place a DS10 at aG customer in Puerto Rico under a support contract; the system was (then) * still under warranty (a 36 month Carepaq).  F Working through the tiered distributor we originally bought the systemF from (and taking a couple of months) we received final quotes and sentG a PO; they submitted it to HP.  Even though the quotes had come from HP E in the first place (and the long delays were due to waiting for their F responses to the distributor), we were then told that HP USA could notB provide the contract after all (they had the info about the systemC location from the beginning and not said a word), and to talk to HP  Puerto Rico directly.   ? It took several weeks to get someone in Puerto Rico to respond. E Voicemail boxes were always full, email was not responded to.  Copies E of the US quotes were sent (by request) then never responded to.  Our G person eventually managed to reach a manager at HP Puerto Rico.  Nearly F 2 months after starting with Puerto Rico, we finally received a quote.C A PO was sent in the next day (beginning of December).  To date, no B response has been received to the PO or to followup emails.  Can't? leave voice mail as the boxes are always full.  We received one E response early this month saying they would get back to us 'shortly'. @ They haven't, and further contacts (or attempts: voicemail) have& resulted in the same lack of response.  G Our contracts person has around 80-90 hours into this fiasco since last  May.  F We have posted this tale of woe, but with names and dates included, toD Ms. Fiorina's 'Tell Carly' page.  Although I never got a response toE the last one I sent (about HP increasing the VMS license transfer fee , from $300 to $400), I guess its worth a try.  C Although this may get someone's cage rattled and get things rolling G again, I'd still like to know if anyone has either a usable contact for A this situation in the HP Puerto Rico service organization, or any D alternatives that can provide system/hardware support _ONSITE_ for aG DS10 there.  We CANNOT use a parts service, and we can, if needed, live  without VMS software support.    Thanks for any info.   Rich CCS    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 01:37:31 -0800 From: andrew01@gmail.com Subject: ipod anyone? C Message-ID: <1106041051.244288.138560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   G I've been debating whether to do this for a while now, but in the end I D decided to tidery the free ipods offer. I have been reading a lot ofF articles and what not over the internet and to me it seems legitimate.D There are also some pretty good offers also. I got a free $10 AmazonF Gift Voucher out of mine, now I think you can get a $20 Lowes voucher.D They also have some pretty good Blockbuster ones that seem like goodE deals. I think its worth trying, there is nothing you can lose.) Just F wanted to see if anyone knew about it. Here's my link if you feel likeE trying it out: just copy and past the link into the browser, you need  to get the whole thing% <http://www.freeipods.com/?r=9170056>   + Thank you. any help is greatly appreciated.  AndrewC (p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I A have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a  member recently though. )    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:26:11 GMT , From: dame_zumari@yahoo.com (Louise Bremner) Subject: Re: ipod anyone? : Message-ID: <1gqln8u.1yehb9iynzhxcN%dame_zumari@yahoo.com>   <andrew01@gmail.com> wrote:   E > (p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I C > have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a  > member recently though. )    Um... Which "forum"?    = Note that you cross-posted to five very different newsgroups.   H ________________________________________________________________________6                    Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)B    If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 05:03:14 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: ipod anyone? 3 Message-ID: <2Hg2hUiwGn6X@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <1106041051.244288.138560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, andrew01@gmail.com writes:  E > (p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I C > have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a  > member recently though. )   F So based on that familiarity with comp.os.vms, I presume you know that I am the King of England.   A (For those who don't check headers, this spammer cross-posted to:   P Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv.uk.coronation-st,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-des2 ign,rec.games.go,comp.os.vms,rec.models.railroad    ! I urge everyone to report him to:   * Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:07:20 +0000  From: JPG <me@privacy.net> Subject: Re: ipod anyone? 8 Message-ID: <bc2qu0lmse1er0jbskc4prg75tqs91ich4@4ax.com>  8 On 18 Jan 2005 01:37:31 -0800, andrew01@gmail.com wrote:    D >(p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, IB >have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a >member recently though. )  3 One doesn't become a "member" of a newsgroup, liar.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:09:26 GMT  From: "Dom" <c@d.com>  Subject: Re: ipod anyone? 5 Message-ID: <GE9Hd.1207$SR5.927@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>   E If you click on the link it says 'You are currently being referred by  andrew01@gmail.com'   L should we report him to gmail too??? or post to him telling him he will lose$ his account unless he apologies? lol   Domestos   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:00:09 GMT : From: Aidan Karley <aidan@mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid> Subject: Re: ipod anyone? B Message-ID: <VA.000004d7.0f0db3f4@mynameplus1.demon.co.uk.invalid>  B In article <1gqln8u.1yehb9iynzhxcN%dame_zumari@yahoo.com>, Louise  Bremner wrote:? > Note that you cross-posted to five very different newsgroups.  > @        In itself a high-liklihood indicator of a random spammer.          --    Aidan Karley,  Aberdeen, Scotland,G  Location: 5710'11" N,  0208'43"  W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:25:54 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast 0 Message-ID: <00A3E0AF.06F62078@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <41EC7F96.5160FA0A@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes: >Kenneth Farmer wrote: >>  = >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message ) >> news:41EC35E7.EB15E7C2@teksavvy.com... / >> > Soem, additional information available at:  >> >A >> > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2005/integrity/  >> >I >> > Webcast is 1 hour long, with 30 minutes of presentations starting at A >> > 08:30 PT, and the chat with Ann Livermore starting at 09:PT.  >>    >> Look at the top of that page! >>  4 >> "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" >>   >> Argh! > : >....and you expected - what? Mozilla on VMS + DECwindows?  H I expected nothing less from a PeeCee company.  What I find laughable isH the juxtaposition of the word Professional with Micro$oft anything.  CanG you really take product to be a serious Professional product when silly H little characters like the paperclip man or a little puppy pop up on the) display with so called "helpful hints"?     H It probably wouldn't hurt them to at least remove the Micro$oft specificG shit from their web pages.  Then I could view these presentations on my G Powerbook.  Perhaps now that HP is reselling the best of class portable G digital music players -- the iPod -- they might begin to recognise that G there is an OS that is far more professional than anything miniscule-n- H flaccid corporation could ever hope to produce coming from the same com- pany providing them iPods.     --  < http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.  --  , Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product!   --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:24:49 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast B Message-ID: <1106065489.560235.32400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article <41EC7F96.5160FA0A@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera# <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > >Kenneth Farmer wrote: > >>? > >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message + > >> news:41EC35E7.EB15E7C2@teksavvy.com... 1 > >> > Soem, additional information available at:  > >> >C > >> > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2005/integrity/  > >> >? > >> > Webcast is 1 hour long, with 30 minutes of presentations  starting at C > >> > 08:30 PT, and the chat with Ann Livermore starting at 09:PT.  > >>" > >> Look at the top of that page! > >>6 > >> "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" > >>
 > >> Argh!  	 You mean: J AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!  ( Let's try and be a little more accurate!   > > < > >....and you expected - what? Mozilla on VMS + DECwindows? > G > I expected nothing less from a PeeCee company.  What I find laughable  isE > the juxtaposition of the word Professional with Micro$oft anything.  Can    Agreed!   C > you really take product to be a serious Professional product when  silly F > little characters like the paperclip man or a little puppy pop up on the ) > display with so called "helpful hints"?   G I wouldn't want the puppy or any other cute helper, but I actually kind G of like paper clip guy. Now that I have my taskbar on the right edge of F the screen, paper clip guy actually stays out of the way for a change!  A > It probably wouldn't hurt them to at least remove the Micro$oft  specificF > shit from their web pages.  Then I could view these presentations on my@ > Powerbook.  Perhaps now that HP is reselling the best of class portable   Agreed! No excuse for this!   D > digital music players -- the iPod -- they might begin to recognise that< > there is an OS that is far more professional than anything miniscule-n-E > flaccid corporation could ever hope to produce coming from the same  com- > pany providing them iPods.+ We can only hope, but I am not too hopeful.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:12:19 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast , Message-ID: <U9Kdna2cv6HBqHDcRVn-2A@igs.net>   Tom Linden wrote: B > I just signed up for it and there seems to be a problem with the> > web page.  I tried with IE6 as well as Opera, and same thing       11:10 am, morning of conference B http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/landing.html?jumpid=go/agility  ; Either their server is overloaded or they don't have enough * bandwidth...taking forever to get launched   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:14:21 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast 3 Message-ID: <A6LbxvQdLYtR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <AQXGd.22765$fE4.4358860@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> writes:  >  > Look at the top of that page!  > 3 > "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional"  >  > Argh!   D    I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home pageE    (www/openvms.compaq.com).  At least though that path I was able to >    get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:47:51 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast 3 Message-ID: <dBBQQbt6inMH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <A6LbxvQdLYtR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: y > In article <AQXGd.22765$fE4.4358860@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> writes:  >>    >> Look at the top of that page! >>  4 >> "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" >>   >> Argh! > F >    I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home pageG >    (www/openvms.compaq.com).  At least though that path I was able to @ >    get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult.  2 Sue Skonetski sent mail this morning with the URL:  C 	http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/landing.html?jumpid=go/agility   D but that page is still sitting there (15 minutes after the scheduled5 start) with the same 00:00:00:00 it has had all week.   * I guess it _does_ take a BillyBox to work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:59:22 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast B Message-ID: <1106066931.6dcb78a65a8ca80ebca54cfba2934622@teranews>   Bob Koehler wrote:F >    I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home pageG >    (www/openvms.compaq.com).  At least though that path I was able to @ >    get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult.  F Same here. Am getting a pre=recorded flash presentation where Carly soH far has said absolutely nothing although she's been babbling for over 15E minutes in what seems to be an infinite loop with broken words due to H Flash being not-quite-ready-for-prime-time for streaming abnd buffering.D Talks abouut RFID devices but nothing about anything new in the IA64
 product line.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:08:46 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)  Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast / Message-ID: <csjfqu$nft$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   r In article <1106066931.6dcb78a65a8ca80ebca54cfba2934622@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: !Bob Koehler wrote: G !>    I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home page H !>    (www/openvms.compaq.com).  At least though that path I was able toA !>    get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult.  ! G !Same here. Am getting a pre=recorded flash presentation where Carly so I !far has said absolutely nothing although she's been babbling for over 15 F !minutes in what seems to be an infinite loop with broken words due toI !Flash being not-quite-ready-for-prime-time for streaming abnd buffering. E !Talks abouut RFID devices but nothing about anything new in the IA64  !product line.  O I will add here that I have obtained the transcript to carly's "loop", and find L that she only gets 2/3ds of the way through her talk before she starts again& from the top (Mozilla Firefox on W2K).  F I was able to obtain a "feedback" page, where I let them know what wasC happening, along with a comment - if this is the best example of HP N "technology", I will not reccommend that technology to me employers/customers.  L The transcripts for Ann's and Rich's "talks" are also available, although weF will never get to "see" them.  Another example of "stealth marketing"?  I Ann's chat is still going in another window, however...folks are asking ac1 number of VMS and Alpha-related questions...good!i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:05:32 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast + Message-ID: <41ED4FE5.2A1772D@teksavvy.com>d  & From the questions and answers period:   Q: It seems that HP is quite# satified with the installed base of ! OpenVMS. But, are you looking for  *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are your arguments to convince a new customer to staya off from Windows and Linux/Unix?    Ann Livermore (A): What we% find today is that it is difficult tom convince new customers to adopt  an operating environment thata they do not view as an industryn  standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of newe customers to OpenVMS. Our  greatest sales success comes from those customers who already have OpenVMS and choose  to expand into new application" areas. If you have suggestions for us, we would love to hear them!o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:03:44 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>o Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcastr, Message-ID: <41ED4F7A.97B19DC8@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:L >         http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/landing.html?jumpid=go/agility > F > but that page is still sitting there (15 minutes after the scheduled7 > start) with the same 00:00:00:00 it has had all week.s > , > I guess it _does_ take a BillyBox to work.  C If you activate javascript, and have a dece,ktlty recent version ofsE Flash plugin,  you will see some form of a presentation. Pre-recordedsD and looping. Proves Carly would make a good politician since she can( talk forever and say absolutely nothing.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:19:25 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)e Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcastc/ Message-ID: <csjjvd$omq$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   [ In article <41ED4FE5.2A1772D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:M' !From the questions and answers period:- !- !Q: It seems that HP is quite-$ !satified with the installed base of" !OpenVMS. But, are you looking for !*NEW* customers, too? If so,A !what are your arguments tow  !convince a new customer to stay !off from Windows andc
 !Linux/Unix? M !i !Ann Livermore (A): What we & !find today is that it is difficult to  !convince new customers to adopt !an operating environment that  !they do not view as an industry! !standard. That makes it hard for  !HP to attract lots of new !customers to OpenVMS. Our !greatest sales success comesO !from those customers whoh  !already have OpenVMS and choose !to expand into new applicationt# !areas. If you have suggestions foro  !us, we would love to hear them!  O With everybody's "permission", I'd like to post the "complete" chat transcript tO (VMS Q&A_only_), in the same spirit that "John Smith" posted the Ann Livermore M and Rich Marcello transcripts.  L This will take a little while, but I think it's the "fairest" way to see the information provided.  Agreed?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:25:20 -0500e# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast-, Message-ID: <Q4WdnQf4JvGnyHDcRVn-sQ@igs.net>   Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:e6 > In article <41ED4FE5.2A1772D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei@ > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: !From the questions and > answers period: !a > !Q: It seems that HP is quitec& > !satified with the installed base of$ > !OpenVMS. But, are you looking for > !*NEW* customers, too? If so,e > !what are your arguments ton" > !convince a new customer to stay > !off from Windows andm > !Linux/Unix? > !n > !Ann Livermore (A): What wes( > !find today is that it is difficult to" > !convince new customers to adopt  > !an operating environment that" > !they do not view as an industry# > !standard. That makes it hard fors > !HP to attract lots of new > !customers to OpenVMS. Our > !greatest sales success comese > !from those customers who-" > !already have OpenVMS and choose! > !to expand into new application % > !areas. If you have suggestions fory" > !us, we would love to hear them! > E > With everybody's "permission", I'd like to post the "complete" chat>B > transcript (VMS Q&A_only_), in the same spirit that "John Smith" > posted the Ann Livermore  > and Rich Marcello transcripts. >tF > This will take a little while, but I think it's the "fairest" way to	 > see thef  > information provided.  Agreed?  J Ken Farmer is posting it on www.openvms.org as we speak....along with some+ questions that were asked and not answered.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:33:29 -0500-# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Livermore transcripte, Message-ID: <D7CdnTFWF4f31XDcRVn-ow@igs.net>  
 Ann Livermoree EVP, Technology Solutions Group$  A HP Integrity: For your most demanding workload (video transcript)   L "Thank you, Carly. I'd like to take just a few minutes to tell you about theL momentum Integrity servers have generated in the marketplace. And then, I'll8 explain two important announcements we are making today.  J First, let's look at momentum. At HP, we designed our Integrity servers toH be the trusted platform for your most demanding workloads. The IntegrityK family ranges from 2-way servers at the low end to powerful 128-way serverso? at the high end. We also developed sophisticated management andlL virtualization solutions that make HP Integrity servers easier to manage and that reduce operating costs.  K And development is on-going with key technology partners, such as Intel andsL Microsoft. Customers have heard us and have embraced our Integrity line. OneE reason is that over 3,000 applications run on Integrity servers. ThistK includes key applications from BEA Systems, Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, SAS andaI many others. Among customers with SAP environments, Integrity servers are.I especially popular. In 180 days, 180 customers chose Integrity servers asaK the foundation for their SAP solution. Plus, the largest single instance of  SAP runs on Integrity.  G Now we are building on this momentum with two announcements. First, ouruE entire Integrity product line now incorporates Intel's newly enhanced2L Itanium 2 9M processor. As a result, these new HP Integrity systems deliver> up to 25% better performance compared with their predecessors.  H More than just numbers from a lab, HP Integrity servers produce businessH results. For example, HP and Oracle outperform IBM DB2 on important dataE warehousing benchmarks like TPC-H. These types of superior benchmarksdD continue across diverse workloads.across multiple servers.and across multiple operating systems.   K The Integrity family's performance enables it to handle your most demandingeJ workloads... including Enterprise Resource Planning ... Online TransactionF Processing ... Business Intelligence... and High Performance TechnicalB Computing. All of which help to produce success for HP customers."  K "The 64-bit Itanium architecture running HP-UX enables us to run simulation L models 20-30 times faster than we could before. This means that a simulationJ that would have taken 5 days to do before, we can now do in a single day."- Martin Allen, IS National Coordinator, Airbusm  K "We were able to cut our processing time by one half, from 8 hours a day to.J 4 hours a day. Now we are able to capture business processing on a 24-hourG clock, and we were able to make changes in our business operating hourssJ primarily because we transitioned to the Integrity server." Jim Ratchford,9 Director IT Infrastructure, Boeing Employees'Credit Union   E "From a performance perspective we have received at least a five-fold ; increase in speed, and we even believe that will increase.".' Tim Eitel, CIO, Raymond James Financiale  J Ann Livermore cont' - "Of course this improved productivity only counts if@ it is matched with excellent uptime and innovative partnership."  B "The reason we chose the HP Itanium 2-based product is multiple...4 flexibility... scalability... power... reliability."' Tim Eitel, CIO, Raymond James Financial   D "This partnership with HP is offering us the possibility to show ourE customers that we are innovating not only just in the hardware of our L product, that is the car, but also in terms of service and in terms of clear information to them."v6 Claudio San Pedro, Vice President, Business Unit, Fiat  @ Ann Livermore cont' - "And the list continues to grow every day.  G Carly also talked about agility. . . about how it is the new imperativesI since you must now deploy services faster...create new revenue streams... @ and respond in a fast-moving, intensely competitive marketplace.  B Today's second announcement addresses these needs with significantH enhancements to the HP Virtual Server Environment. This multi-OS VirtualE Server Environment consists of a pool of dynamically sizeable virtualrC servers ... each of which can grow or shrink based on service level  objectives and business needs.  L From a business point of view, the unique integration of virtualization withE high availability and utility pricing delivers powerful benefits. For-J instance, you can double your resource utilization ... maintain continuousJ service levels in the event of unexpected downtime ...and pay only for the computing you actually use.s  L So far you've heard how HP Integrity servers are the trusted choice for yourG most demanding workloads.and how Integrity servers deliver breakthrough I value within and beyond the system. Now Rich Marcello will explain how weVD are expanding the list of operating systems you can run on IntegrityK servers....and how we are also expanding the solutions ecosystem around ourm Integrity servers."    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:06:42 GMTM* From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>: Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement2 Message-ID: <SecHd.6039$B45.2053@news.cpqcorp.net>  9 Come on.  Its winter, the election is over, and Bill mustM have time on his hands.p  : I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it.    ( <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message' news:87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com... . > "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes: > / > > Would you like some whine with your cheese?e >iC > Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the0 > work you have done.3 >C > -- C> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.XB >                                              West Australia 6076, > comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot0 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:06:29 +08000 From: prep@prep.synonet.comC: Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement- Message-ID: <87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   , "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes:  - > Would you like some whine with your cheese?   A Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the_ work you have done.1   -- 0< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:21:22 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e Subject: Marcello transcript, Message-ID: <r5GdnRtKoJYP2HDcRVn-2A@igs.net>  
 Rich MarcelloC3 Sr. VP & GM, Business Critical Servers Product Line2  . Confidence you can count on (video transcript)  ? When you invest in the systems that form the foundation of yourII infrastructure, you need the peace of mind to know that the value of yourCH investments will grow as your needs grow. HP Integrity servers support a9 broad selection of market-leading operating environments.F  H For instance, HP Integrity servers running HP-UX 11i v2 have experiencedL triple digit growth year over year. HP Integrity servers deliver the leadingJ multi-processor price/performance of any Linux platform in the world. And,E HP Integrity servers running Windows deliver the highest SQL databaset" scalable performance in the world.  F With our third announcement for today, the list of available operatingH environments just got longer, as we are releasing OpenVMS version 8.2 onK Integrity. The production release of OpenVMS 8.2 not only provides you with-I outstanding price/performance, reduces total cost of ownership and offersmJ investment protection for OpenVMS operating environments, but also ensuresD greater adaptability and flexibility for IT environments in general.  L As you will learn when reviewing the product information on this event site,7 there are new operating system capabilities, including.mA - Enhanced virtualization and security features for HP-UX 11i v2.0K - Availability of new utility pricing options, manageability and clustering+. capabilities for disaster recovery on Windows.J - As well as enhanced virtualization and high availability capabilities on Linux.  K While the server platform itself is important, the quality of the ecosystemt? surrounding it is also critical to meeting your business needs.-  K With this in mind, the Integrity ecosystem offers an array of solutions andmF applications developed with a growing list of independent software and@ hardware vendors. As mentioned earlier, there are now over 3,000K applications available for HP Integrity servers today, which dwarfs the 200 E or so available for IBM's POWER5. And, this work is expanding through2L worldwide events such as the HP/Intel Developer Forums and HP, Microsoft and Intel 'Route 64' hands-on labs.o  E In conjunction with servers, HP also provides a powerful portfolio ofaL storage and software products that are designed to work together to save youJ time and money, and to produce even better results. HP is renowned for itsJ collaborative approach to design and build an agile infrastructure. Here's* what a couple of our customers had to say.  L "The migration of our AlphaServers to Integrity servers running Oracle9i wasF a non-event. The only thing we wanted people to notice was the greaterE availability and greater performance, and that's what it did for us."cC Scott Wolfe, IT Enterprise Architect, Boeing Employees'Credit Union:  K "What we're finding with the HP Integrity solution, is that it is basicallyPG an 'off-the-shelf' solution, so the total cost of ownership comes down.c. Basically this means we can do more for less."- Martin Allen, IS National Coordinator, Airbusm  J "When we turned on the Integrity system, nobody noticed. At the end of theG business day, they said 'Wow.' Integrity met our needs and exceeded our>- expectations, and it has not skipped a beat."iH Jim Ratchford, Director IT Infrastructure, Boeing Employees'Credit Union  A The HP Integrity server ecosystem also includes a powerful set ofaJ complimentary and fee-based services to either augment or replace your ownJ internal capabilities. In addition to HP's vertical industry expertise andK practices, a few of the most popular services include server consolidation,", business continuity and agility assessments.  G Highly adaptable finance offerings are another part of the HP IntegrityiD ecosystem. From a straight purchase.or leasing.to the newest ways toI dynamically scale up or down as needs require, HP offers methods that are D well suited to your business economics. Plus, HP provides aggressive< trade-in and upgrade programs to help you painlessly evolve.  J As Carly stated when we began, the world of IT has changed dramatically inI the past five years. That's why a collaborative approach to design and to:( build an Adaptive Enterprise is crucial.  3 In closing, I'd like to leave you with three ideas:gJ - Consider breathing new life into your organization and replace your RISC( platform with a more robust architectureJ - Consider replacing those tired IBM mainframes with a lower-cost and more agile solutionJ - Consider swapping out those legacy Sun servers with an HP system you can( count on for the next decade and beyond.  F The HP Integrity family of servers offers the superior choice, focusedH innovation and world-class experience for your most demanding workloads.1 And, there is no better time to start than today.f  H While you are here, I urge you to spend time using the resources at thisJ event site, particularly the 'Evolve today' section. And then contact your, local HP Representative today to learn more.   Thanks again for joining us."e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:05:52 -0500 0 From: Peter Sjoberg <peters38@techwiz.spamno.ca>. Subject: RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem> Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.18.18.03.03.727461@techwiz.spamno.ca>  D On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:31:31 +0000, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:  s > In article <pan.2005.01.17.17.12.43.468165@techwiz.ca.nospam>, Peter Sjoberg <peters38@techwiz.ca.nospam> writes:aK >>> As I recall, early on in the VMS V7.3-1 release there was an issue withtE >>> MC interconnects. Are you running the latest patch update for VMSd >>> V7.3-1? K >>Nope, was running unpatched stuff. I headed over to hp.com, signed up (nod8 >>contract needed :) )and downloaded VMS731_PCSI-V0200 &D >>VMS731_UPDATE-V0400, and after installing them it worked directly. > P > No need to sign up at all. ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-1/J Probably works also if you know what you looking for or don't mind reading all release notes.I Last time I updated VMS was when I had DEC Support to connect in over DSNoD and do the fixing, and it seems to have changed a little since then.   > ' > And consider upgrading to V7.3-2 ASAPlC I installed 7.3-1 because that's the latest I have, the latest fromyJ http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html and $362us for  kit form HP is" a bit to much for my hobby budget.G If I get my hands on something later (7.3-2, 8.x) I probably install it.2 but intil then I patch up 7.3-1 and run with that.        O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----eS http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 NewsgroupsoE ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:34:21 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> $ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & ItaniumB Message-ID: <1106041039.8458bac5632569d43e2a38a211596aed@teranews>   Tom Linden wrote:'I > True, but since Intel has cooled to the Itanium, and they only have a 3nS > yearn  contractual obligation to HP, one might reasonably ask, what happens then. H > Given the cost of the fab, if they have a captive customer it might be> > tempting to recoup some of the capital investment from them.  G Intel doesn't have a FAB dedicated to IA64. It uses the same FAB as thet 8086.   G Does anyone know how long it takes to switch product/chip at a FAB (say C to produce 8086s one day and Alphas the next ?) Is this measured inv minutes, hours, days, weeks ?t  H I assume that they have designed the FAbs so that product switches don't entail long downtimes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:07:41 -05001- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>s$ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & ItaniumB Message-ID: <1106041024.a323c2d3643f0299033fd8178a7b04f4@teranews>   Tom Linden wrote:aI > True, but since Intel has cooled to the Itanium, and they only have a 3 S > yearn  contractual obligation to HP, one might reasonably ask, what happens then.mH > Given the cost of the fab, if they have a captive customer it might be> > tempting to recoup some of the capital investment from them.  G Intel doesn't have a FAB dedicated to IA64. It uses the same FAB as theJ 8086.   G Does anyone know how long it takes to switch product/chip at a FAB (saygC to produce 8086s one day and Alphas the next ?) Is this measured ing minutes, hours, days, weeks ?.  H I assume that they have designed the FAbs so that product switches don't entail long downtimes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:42:05 -0500a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e$ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & ItaniumB Message-ID: <1106041012.06cf737956d089a5b5a125cd3d2e6a94@teranews>   Tom Linden wrote: I > True, but since Intel has cooled to the Itanium, and they only have a 3nS > yearn  contractual obligation to HP, one might reasonably ask, what happens then.oH > Given the cost of the fab, if they have a captive customer it might be> > tempting to recoup some of the capital investment from them.  G Intel doesn't have a FAB dedicated to IA64. It uses the same FAB as thev 8086.   G Does anyone know how long it takes to switch product/chip at a FAB (say_C to produce 8086s one day and Alphas the next ?) Is this measured in  minutes, hours, days, weeks ?   H I assume that they have designed the FAbs so that product switches don't entail long downtimes.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:24:06 GMTi5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)s$ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & ItaniumL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1801050624040001@user-105n829.dialup.mindspring.com>  8 In article <41EC90D7.2020005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:   >Keith Parris wrote: >e >> uH >> Integrity Servers cost less than the equivalent Alpha box (thanks to K >> economies of scale). So it's not hard to convince intelligent people to r >> purchase them.e >h >e0 >Can you be specific about "economies of scale"? >.   ....  M >Does an Alpha box really cost more to mfg?  My bet is that HP is charging a sP >premium for Alpha, since the only customers left don't have any other choices. P >A bit like a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 costing twice as much as an Alpha that was  >10 times faster.0  A Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar IntegrityDB systems.  You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the= public.  Since they're not, you're safe with your wild publics
 speculations.t  H The HP system designers are have traditionally been much more cost-awareH than the Alpha system designers at Digital.  Integrity systems have muchE more re-use of components and subsystems, for example.  The HP design I teams are just better at low-cost design than their Digital counterparts,iH likely because their managers have pushed for low cost for years.  ThereG is a cultural difference that couldn't happen overnight even if Digitalr( had wanted to design lower-cost servers.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:50:03 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)$ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium, Message-ID: <354igbF4gp8quU1@individual.net>  3 In article <Zi8QSRu9Yr8w@eisner.encompasserve.org>,R7 	kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes:eh > In article <UxQGd.5962$Fp4.5589@news.cpqcorp.net>, Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> writes: >> JF Mezei wrote:A >>> My guess is that Alpha VMS sales will outlive IA64 VMS sales.  >> fK >> As Alpha sales are slated to end next year, in 2006, your guess is very e >> unlikely. >   > When was the last PDP-11 sold?  F You can't answer that one without a crystal ball.  The question shouldF not be in the past tense yet.  Forget about the Alpha, I expect PDP-11 sales to outlive IA64 sales.     bill   -- gJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:29:43 -0500v- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>f$ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium, Message-ID: <41ED4783.F705C654@teksavvy.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:rC > Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar Integrity0D > systems.  You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the? > public.  Since they're not, you're safe with your wild publicd > speculations.h  4 Why should an Alpha box cost more than an IA64 box ? Is the the power supply ?  Is it the case ? Is it the disk drives ?  Is it the connectors ? Is it the type of memory ?  ; Are alpha servers built with gold solder  instead of lead ?t  H If it is just the chip which is different, then I doubt that Alpha chipsH actualy cost more than IA64, especially if HP ordered one large batch ofF them made for a final production. (Higher volum the smaller quaktitiesH of IA64s being made in light of the fact that the chip is still evolving@ and you don't want to stockpile years worth of Merced supplies).  H If IA64 and Alpha servers are of same quality, I do not buy the argumentF that the Alpha has to be more expensive. Remember that many were  doneD under Compaq which also had good "low cost manufacturing" expertise.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:02:23 +0800e From: prep@prep.synonet.com $ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium- Message-ID: <87u0per7q8.fsf@prep.synonet.com>r  6 kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes:    > When was the last PDP-11 sold?    FA-18 spare are still available.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.r@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 06:43:34 -0800) From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com>vA Subject: OT: "Membership" in Usenet Groups (was Re: ipod anyone?).C Message-ID: <1106059414.797653.324550@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>>  
 JPG wrote:: > On 18 Jan 2005 01:37:31 -0800, andrew01@gmail.com wrote: >> >bF > >(p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, ID > >have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a > >member recently though. ) >p5 > One doesn't become a "member" of a newsgroup, liar.o  G In Google Groups Beta (or GG2), there is a requirement that you join orUA subscribe to a group before you can post, so technically since hetD joined the group he is a member.  They are treating UseNet groups noD different than any other web based discussion area where you have toG subscribe before posting. Unfortunately, there's nobody checking to seen who joins...   Kent   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:31:19 GMTf! From: Nigel Barker <nigel@hp.com>i# Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next?n8 Message-ID: <v0opu0dak0qti24oih1ik0kr7pi812i6s4@4ax.com>  L On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:17:18 -0500, "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote:   >u >> -----Original Message-----g8 >> From: Alex van Denzel [mailto:vandenzel@hotmail.com] " >> Sent: January 17, 2005 12:03 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com& >> Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next? >> a >> John Smith wrote:A >> > Soon after the computer arrived from the U.S. he plugged it   >> in. There was "a = >> > big bang, like an explosion, and white smoke out of the s >> speaker grilles," hee! >> > says. The machine then died.  >> rI >> Probably without reading the warning label "This device is configured   >> for 110V use only". >>   >> --g >> Alex. >-H >Actually, since 110V only power supplies would likely be more expensiveG >to build when one has a world wide market, I would be really surprisedpE >if they were not using universal power supplies. They typically have2G >110/220 switch at back of the unit and it is typically covered in somecB >kind of tape with label warning the user to set the switch to the; >appropriate position depending on what the local power is.e >iH >I suspect the person in the article just set the switch inappropriately >and paid the consequences.e  P Many power supplies are auto-switching e.g. on most laptop computers. On my lastN visit to the US I bought a Braun electric razor in Wal-Mart which has US styleN plug on the power supply but is rated 100-240V ac 50-60 Hz / 7W. Purchase of aP simple $3 plug converter saved me about $30 compared to buying the same razor in Europe.    -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azurr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:41:45 -0500"# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r# Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next? , Message-ID: <A8KdnVPgiomPj3DcRVn-rw@igs.net>   Nigel Barker wrote:iG > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:17:18 -0500, "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>m > wrote: >  >> >>> -----Original Message-----8 >>> From: Alex van Denzel [mailto:vandenzel@hotmail.com]# >>> Sent: January 17, 2005 12:03 PMe >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-' >>> Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next?- >>>  >>> John Smith wrote:.@ >>>> Soon after the computer arrived from the U.S. he plugged it >>> in. There was "a< >>>> big bang, like an explosion, and white smoke out of the >>> speaker grilles," he! >>>> says. The machine then died.l >>>r> >>> Probably without reading the warning label "This device is" >>> configured for 110V use only". >>>. >>> --	 >>> Alex.t >>@ >> Actually, since 110V only power supplies would likely be moreB >> expensive to build when one has a world wide market, I would beD >> really surprised if they were not using universal power supplies.C >> They typically have 110/220 switch at back of the unit and it isgE >> typically covered in some kind of tape with label warning the usertF >> to set the switch to the appropriate position depending on what the >> local power is. >>: >> I suspect the person in the article just set the switch- >> inappropriately and paid the consequences.a >0G > Many power supplies are auto-switching e.g. on most laptop computers.w? > On my last visit to the US I bought a Braun electric razor in1C > Wal-Mart which has US style plug on the power supply but is ratedcC > 100-240V ac 50-60 Hz / 7W. Purchase of a simple $3 plug convertercA > saved me about $30 compared to buying the same razor in Europe.   I Are you planning to bring back any HP ink cartridges on your next trip to.& plug into your Euro-market HP printer?  I HP calls the cartridges the same '57' or '14' or whatever for all marketsh. yet some clearly are 'sabotaged' from working.  J Kind of reminds me how laptops playing DVD's encoded for different regionsJ have their DVD drives cease to function because Hollywood insists on it. ID wonder when some Texas class-action lawyer will come after HP when aL globe-trotting consultant or executive finds out that HP has consipired withH others to do this - same could happen to Toshiba or Dell, etc.... not to just pick on HP.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:59:22 -0800c' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>q Subject: Re: Reorg+ Message-ID: <csjf9b$jkr$1@naig.caltech.edu>5   Tom Linden wrote:22 > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:06:33 GMT, Keith Parris  ' > <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:o > @ >> The article said profitable "today". HP has just entered the ? >> regulatory  "quiet period" preceding its quarterly earnings oC >> announcement, so data  about the latest quarter's profitability  H >> (including data about Wintel)  is not available. The reporter should I >> have asked about profitability  last quarter, or last fiscal year --- 1F >> then they could have gotten the  reponse that yes, indeed, VMS was  >> profitable. >> > F > I noted last week that PCs and Printers are now in the same group.   > That  should7 > hide the miserable financial performance of the PC's.    I had the exact same thought.n  A Hard to see any "synergy" in the reorg - unless HP is planning on3A shipping PCs with HP printers built into them. On the other hand,p? it is absolutely wonderful for concealing the financial resultsaA in the PC business.  It's also going to make the printer business 6 look much less efficient since the profit (essentially< unhanged = all from the printer side) will be divided by theB sales from both businesses.  Maybe HP thinks somebody wants to buy> them so they're attempting to make their prize asset look lessA valuable?  I couldn't think of anybody who would actually want tohD buy HP, but I suppose some corporate raider might be able to swing aC deal to raise enough cash to do so, and could then spin off or sell5? the printer division at a profit, while chucking the rest of HP 
 in the trash.n   Regards,   David Mathog   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:32:47 -0800) From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com>d Subject: Re: SolutioneB Message-ID: <1106069567.877974.35180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   Kenneth Farmer wrote:tF > Close current multimedia window.  Open a new one and click on Ann or Rich as ; > soon as it opens.  Then you'll go into that presentation.m >o > Kenn  F It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and then continues...n   Ken (One of the other ones)P   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:01:01 GMTe6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> Subject: Solutionp< Message-ID: <hhbHd.4188$K72.993757@twister.southeast.rr.com>  M Close current multimedia window.  Open a new one and click on Ann or Rich as 19 soon as it opens.  Then you'll go into that presentation.@   Keny   OpenVMS.org:% _____________________________________4 Kenneth R. Farmer <><o% SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com       0 "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message < news:1106066616.200231.21480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...G > I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop oflI > Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do ItA > have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button?n >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC) 7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)a Subject: Re: Solutionn/ Message-ID: <csji04$o7s$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>,  u In article <hhbHd.4188$K72.993757@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com> writes:cN !Close current multimedia window.  Open a new one and click on Ann or Rich as : !soon as it opens.  Then you'll go into that presentation. !s !Ken !  !OpenVMS.org& !_____________________________________ !Kenneth R. Farmer <><& !SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com !u !a !y1 !"AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message a= !news:1106066616.200231.21480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...fH !> I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop ofJ !> Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do IB !> have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? !> a !a !    Thanks, that did the trick...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:31:26 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>h Subject: Re: Solutione, Message-ID: <41ED55F6.5B2DE9FF@teksavvy.com>   Ken Robinson wrote:oH > It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and > then continues...i    F I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS loyalists,F had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web cast. Not onlyE is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not only is this just adG pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it does nothing to increase: VMS's exposure.m  F The articles and press releases of yesterday had far more content than today's supposed event.@    C In fairness, the choice of flash over microsoft is a good politicaltD move, even if from a technology point of view, it doesn't seem to beC ready for prime time. Flash is available on far more platforms thanu Microsoft media thing.  H Airbus also tried used flash earlier today for its unveiling of the A380C beast.  I did manage to get a couple of frames after about an hour.uF Thankfully the BBC carried a lot of the presentation. But at lea theyd to stream live content.   G It is amazing that web technologies  are fairly mature and there should A be experience on capacity planning and testing of "facilities" toy provide reliable webcasts.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:36:30 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Solution-0 Message-ID: <00A3E0EB.2E96D396@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <41ED55F6.5B2DE9FF@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >Ken Robinson wrote:I >> It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and  >> then continues... >p >tG >I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS loyalists,cG >had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web cast. Not onlytF >is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not only is this just aH >pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it does nothing to increase >VMS's exposure. > G >The articles and press releases of yesterday had far more content than: >today's supposed event. >t ><D >In fairness, the choice of flash over microsoft is a good politicalE >move, even if from a technology point of view, it doesn't seem to berD >ready for prime time. Flash is available on far more platforms than >Microsoft media thing.. >dI >Airbus also tried used flash earlier today for its unveiling of the A380sD >beast.  I did manage to get a couple of frames after about an hour.G >Thankfully the BBC carried a lot of the presentation. But at lea theydn >to stream live content. >nH >It is amazing that web technologies  are fairly mature and there shouldB >be experience on capacity planning and testing of "facilities" to >provide reliable webcasts.     K Hmmm.  Steve Jobs' keynote from Macworld San Francisco '05 plays flawlesslysK and much better quality than the Flash of the "Great HP OpenVMS on Itanium"rK we were asked to tune into today.  Perhaps, HP needs to adopt QuickTime to h( go along with the iPods they've adopted.   -- s< http://www.ProvN.com  for the *best* OpenVMS system security=                       solutions that others only claim to be.k -- p, Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.:M   The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! e --  K VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker   VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:26:03 GMTn& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>: Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)2 Message-ID: <vMaHd.6028$215.4283@news.cpqcorp.net>  I I don't think anybody is considering dropping the source listing kit.  I P?   recently had to double-check if there are any listings in my  E facilities that I didn't want to be included in the listings kit for r& V8.2.  So somebody is doing something.     -- e John Reaganl/ HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leadern Hewlett-Packard CompanyT   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:43:03 -0800s# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>e: Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)( Message-ID: <opsks4p1dbzgicya@hyrrokkin>  I On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:26:03 GMT, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote:r  L > I don't think anybody is considering dropping the source listing kit.  I  B >   recently had to double-check if there are any listings in my  H > facilities that I didn't want to be included in the listings kit for  ( > V8.2.  So somebody is doing something. >h >m4 Can you tell me what the part number is to order it?     -- rC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/a   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 11:31:25 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r: Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)3 Message-ID: <opNL5IAdtYmG@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  N In article <opsks4p1dbzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:K > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:26:03 GMT, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> wrote:e > M >> I don't think anybody is considering dropping the source listing kit.  I  dC >>   recently had to double-check if there are any listings in my   I >> facilities that I didn't want to be included in the listings kit for  n) >> V8.2.  So somebody is doing something.u >> >>6 > Can you tell me what the part number is to order it?  9 From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF :a   	Source Listings Kitsi  : 	QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License8 	QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License    	OpenVMS Source Listings Service  2 	QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service0 	QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings Service  ? QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX)n. and QT- gets you updates as they are released.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:25:50 GMTl& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>: Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)2 Message-ID: <OwcHd.6041$Vb5.3242@news.cpqcorp.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  ; > From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF :i >  > 	Source Listings Kitst > < > 	QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License: > 	QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License > " > 	OpenVMS Source Listings Service > 4 > 	QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service2 > 	QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings Service > A > QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX)c0 > and QT- gets you updates as they are released.  G I'm guessing that soon you'd get V8.2 for Alpha and the addition of an eE I64 kit.  And no, I don't know the part number for I64.  I'm just an n4 engineer and don't see that level of product detail.     -- r John Reagant/ HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leadera Hewlett-Packard Companyd   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:01:51 -0500 ) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>t Subject: Re: vms versus solaris : Message-ID: <Hv2Hd.23475$W33.714909@news20.bellglobal.com>  ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message -& news:41EC8466.D1702D22@teksavvy.com... [...snip...] > J > Sorry, C is often portrayed by some as some evil dangerous language with- > C programmers considered satan worshippers.S >d+ > And yes, I am guilty of programming in C.   L I too am a "C" programmer. However, my employer prefers that programmers in L our division stick with Compaq-BASIC which means that only 5% of my work is M done in "C". Since those that pay the piper call the tune, we do what we are fK told unless we can justify otherwise. My only real beef these days is that uF people don't comment their work sufficiently. One of our team members H recently left us (promotion) and we discovered that almost all his work H since 1999 was undocumented so maybe my employer should bring back code  reviews.  L Despite all the ripping that both "C" and UNIX get, I see places where both 
 are valuable.mI 1. Two years back we did business with a company called PixStream (until  M they were taken over by Cisco and then shut down) who were using an embedded .7 form of UNIX on every one of their video decoder cards.0I 2. The open source movement (LINUX, Apache, ISC, OpenOffice, etc.) is my dK primary example and will probably be the only group of programmers capable mL of taking on Microsoft head to head. This is one reason why I think OpenVMS B engineers where pretty smart with their "OpenVMS UNIX Portability < Initiative". It lets customers have the best of both worlds.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,c Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 04:59:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)W Subject: Re: vms versus solarisP3 Message-ID: <APqtG0CsE$6M@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  f In article <Hv2Hd.23475$W33.714909@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > = > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message r( > news:41EC8466.D1702D22@teksavvy.com... > [...snip...] >>K >> Sorry, C is often portrayed by some as some evil dangerous language witho. >> C programmers considered satan worshippers. >>, >> And yes, I am guilty of programming in C. > N > I too am a "C" programmer. However, my employer prefers that programmers in N > our division stick with Compaq-BASIC which means that only 5% of my work is O > done in "C". Since those that pay the piper call the tune, we do what we are 1M > told unless we can justify otherwise. My only real beef these days is that s/ > people don't comment their work sufficiently.r  C Most languages are equivalent in that regard, although APL and TECOn have a bit of a leg-up.h  N > Despite all the ripping that both "C" and UNIX get, I see places where both  > are valuable.t  K > 2. The open source movement (LINUX, Apache, ISC, OpenOffice, etc.) is my nM > primary example and will probably be the only group of programmers capable o& > of taking on Microsoft head to head.  4 Open Source Software can be written in any language.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:02:09 +0000 (UTC)r( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisu5 Message-ID: <csits1$k9n$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>h  N In article <opskru2en6zgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: > M > There is more to a high-level language than that.  How about strong typing,tL > lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name a   > few.  G One can find some equivalence for those PL/Iisms in C or its libraries.c( ON conditions eg by signal()-mechanisms.  M > How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must do)  l > in C?a  / Relegate that to some library once and for all.m   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:08:11 +0000 (UTC)l( From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: vms versus solarism5 Message-ID: <csiu7b$kge$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>s  e In article <jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:tD > One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports M > quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows cN > processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion daughter 4 > processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc.   Can you say "ulimit" ?/ Modern Unices have file system "quota" as well.n; You - as many in this group - should do some reality check.lA Unix hasn't stopped developing in the 80's, this is 21st century..   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 06:48:04 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: vms versus solarisr3 Message-ID: <OAJ8+Lh30gNl@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  ` In article <csits1$k9n$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:P > In article <opskru2en6zgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: >> 'N >> There is more to a high-level language than that.  How about strong typing,M >> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name a    >> few.  > I > One can find some equivalence for those PL/Iisms in C or its libraries.s  ? I do not understand how an external library can make up for C's : inherent lack of nested subprogram declaration capability.  E Those are not just PL/Iisms -- that one is a basic feature of Pascal,  Ada, and even Bliss !    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 06:52:18 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen). Subject: Re: vms versus solarisu3 Message-ID: <sj+$Wan6z+SN@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  ` In article <csiu7b$kge$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:g > In article <jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:lE >> One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports uN >> quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows O >> processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion daughter v5 >> processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc.s >  > Can you say "ulimit" ?  F Sure, but unless you explain what it means, pronouncing a strange word does not help.  1 > Modern Unices have file system "quota" as well.v  - Ok, so I gather "ulimit" is not a disk quota.w  < Is it a quota on pagefile space ?  Per process or per user ?  F Is it a quota on outstanding I/O requests ?  Per process or per user ?  C Is it a quota on use of non-paged pool ?  Per process or per user ?   8 Is it a quota on open files ?  Per process or per user ?  A Is it a quota on timer queue entries ?  Per process or per user ?s  5 Is it a quota on outstanding ASTs ?  (I guess not :-)d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:53:34 -0500e# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: vms versus solaris , Message-ID: <77ydnQ3d6JFKiXDcRVn-vA@igs.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:B > In article <Hv2Hd.23475$W33.714909@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil' > Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:g >>= >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message1) >> news:41EC8466.D1702D22@teksavvy.com...3 >> [...snip...]c >>>uG >>> Sorry, C is often portrayed by some as some evil dangerous language.4 >>> with C programmers considered satan worshippers. >>>0- >>> And yes, I am guilty of programming in C.  >>? >> I too am a "C" programmer. However, my employer prefers thattG >> programmers in our division stick with Compaq-BASIC which means thatoD >> only 5% of my work is done in "C". Since those that pay the piper> >> call the tune, we do what we are told unless we can justifyG >> otherwise. My only real beef these days is that people don't commentd >> their work sufficiently.) >nE > Most languages are equivalent in that regard, although APL and TECOa > have a bit of a leg-up.l    I My APL programs tend to have more in-line documentation than actual code.a  L We always have two people who have never seen a piece of new code written byL a third person walk through it and the associated comments to ensure that itL is reasonably clearly documented and that the comments actually reflect whatA the code does. We are also a bit anal in that we use a 'standard'nJ documentation header template for each module/routine/method which forms aK part of the source code in addition to comments inserted in the body of thec source.h   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:49:41 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris , Message-ID: <354m04F36sk1oU1@individual.net>  , In article <41EC88AA.6040702@tsoft-inc.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > ' >>>>Wether the user wants it to or not.  >>>> >>> R >>>No, can't say that.  Using QIO you have access to files without any of the RMS R >>>overhead.  You can implement whatever type of file handling you wish, and have A >>>the DLM to easily implement whatever type of locking you wish.d >>>n >>  E >> But which is the default when I say "OPEN" in Pascal or some other,A >> language? Yes, you can get around RMS, but VMS starts with theeE >> everything including the kitchen sink.  Unix starts with the least,? >> and lets the user add on additional requirements.  DifferentpA >> approaches to the same problem caused by the difference in theF> >> underlying paradigm of the OS.  Neither one is better, just
 >> different.h >  > N > When you say "OPEN" in Pascal, you're now talking about what a language and L > compiler offer, not what the OS offers.  What happens when you open a VMS O > channel to a file from Pascal?  You can now do I/O at the QIO level.  What's o
 > your point?-  D Actually, I'm talking about what a Pascal Programmer is going to putH in his code. QIO isn't Pascal.  Just for grins, tell me which is faster.G Using QIO or using the default IO provided by Pascal?  I am pretty surewD I already know the answer to that.  And the result is everybody getsC overhead even when it really buys them nothing.  Unix philosophy is,H the other way around.  If you want more, use it, but everybody (probably# the majority) don't really need it.    >  >  > H >>>>There are alternatives that provide records and thus record locking. >>>> >>>BQ >>>Can you be a bit more definitive about "thus record locking"? Care to look at nQ >>>it in a multi-system configuration?  With the exception of some IBM software, aT >>>I'm not aware of anything that can be considered in the same catagory as the VMS  >>>DLM.e >>>d >> FM >> First, in order to have useful "record locking" you have to have something-M >> that handles data as records.  It has already been stated (and accepted by.I >> the Unix camp) that the default file system is just a stream of bytes.1 >  > Q > So Ok, from within a program on Unix, I implement code that treats the file as cP > records, calculating the record offset and bytecount and such.  Now, how do I R > take out a lock on the string of bytes I am accessing that will be respected by > > cooperating programs?  On VMS I can very easily use the DLM.  H If you are implementing a system, it's up to you. If your using a systemF someone else implemented, use theirs.  Obviuosly, Unix can't provide aC record locking mechanism for a system it is unaware of.  And if thepH programs are "cooperating" it seems a trivial problem.  The real problemI becomes locking out that program that doesn't want to cooperate.  I think   that is what things like DLM do.   >  > G >> As for multi-system configurations, I freely admit that no Unix I amMK >> aware of can do what VMS does in that arena.  However, because everybody N >> isn't flocking to VMS from Unix, apparently it isn't really that important. >  > R > Maybe Unix users have given up, or have devised workarounds, or don't even know S > that such is possible.  All three possibilities make their work harder, and less  	 > useful.e  G Hardly.  There are just a lot of things that have come out of computingnK research that actually affect a lot less people than you think.  of course,aG another one of the advantages to unix is that if you want something andmG no one else does you are free (and it is technically possible) to do it F yourself because there are unixes available with the entire source andJ the legal right to re-engineer them.  Interestingly enough, you don't find that happening very often.     >  > I >> But, instead of trying to point out all these non-existant Unix short-eG >> comings maybe it wold be better if you just pointed out what VMS caniF >> do that Unix can't.  That way you win and people who know the truthG >> about Unix won't laugh behind your back after you have left the room ) >> from a loosing sales presentation. :-)o >  >  > Partial list:n >  > Distributed Lock Manager  H There's one. (Although there actually is a DLM for Unix.  It's just that; most unix people haven't really found much use for it yet.)   ! > Robust development environment.   9 How is it more robust than the ones available under unix?a   > VAX/DEC BASICl  C Dykstra would say that was a strike against VMS.  And why is it any0. better than the BASIC(s) available under unix?  K > Clustering, as it was originally defined, shared everything, not falloverd  G Now you have two.  But this one only affects a small handfull of users.o   > DECnet  G What is the advantage of DECnet over other networking protocols?  ThereeE are lots of disadvantages.  Oh yeah, that has been available for unix>C since the Ultrix days and while I have even used it, unless you areAG also running VMS (or PDP-11's :-) it really hasn't much use in the unix0 world.   > E > Since I don't know Unix, some of the following may not be VMS only:a >  > Global sectionsh  G If this is Systemwide Logicals, unix can do that, but not as gracefullyr as VMS.   % > Access to system calls outside of Ci  D ??  Outside in what way?  Any language can call any library.  If youD mean from a shell, I've never seen it done and because of the nature@ of the unix system calls I am not sure it would even make sense.  
 > Logicals  / Got them.  Just don't call them the same thing.n  	 > Symbols-  B Aren't they really the same as Logicals?  (I really don't know the difference.)   > Mailboxess  D Not sure of the real nature of VMS "Mailboxes".  I get my email in aB "mailbox", but VMS seems to have a different meaning. I think thisE is likely the same pty's or some combination of other methods of IPC.    >  >  >> f >>>nG >>>>When Unix users need this feature they use it.  But more oftne thaniD >>>>not, they don't need it.  Neither do they need the overhead such >>>>systems bring with them. >  > Q > How about, they don't use some features because they don't have them available?   F If they really needed them, someone would implement them.  Heck, LinusB Torvalds implemented another whole unix-like system because of hisB warped sense that it was "needed".  And the developers flocked to E him to expand it.  Do you really think that if there wa anything thate< was really seen as important that no one would implement it?   > S >>>As mentioned before, using the QIO interface, VMS can also do low overhead I/O. MR >>>  The difference is with Unix, usually one must acquire additional capability, > >>>with associated costs, while the capability is part of VMS. >>>  >>  D >> Associated costs?  How much does Postgres cost?  Large amounts ofC >> Unix software is available for the taking.  Again, difference in2D >> philosophy.  I will put any package my users need (within reason,D >> you won't find Doom) on our Unix servers.  The people who run the> >> VMS system will not even put up stuff from the Freeware CD. >> >  > S > What some people will put on Unix, and what others will put on VMS, doesn't seem  : > to have anything to do with a discussion on OS features.  H The example was merely meant to show that the biggest difference betweenG VMS and unix is philosophical between the two userbases.  Which is why WH it always seems to be a religous war rather than a technical discussion.   billE PS. Hope it's warmer in your corner of the state than it is in mine!!2   -- 4J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:42:56 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <arua5JjLZYaq@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  W In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:r >  eJ > If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use something= > else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it?t  H    If a stream of bytes can do the job, VMS will provide you a stream of	    bytes.   F    Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comesF    to data.  If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX    is out of luck.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:39:34 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a Subject: Re: vms versus solaris13 Message-ID: <FXL4huwjzfL0@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <3IudnYo-79LDqnHcRVn-3g@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > H > They get taught about 1.5 days of instruction in university about ISAMK > theory, do 2 coding exercise assignments worth 6% of their term mark, andfC > that is....back to stream of bytes for the rest of their careers.w  G    I never hire anybody who can't learn on the job.  And VMS is so easys    to learn.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:41:26 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r Subject: Re: vms versus solaris>3 Message-ID: <0vkL8cAIs54q@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes:   D > One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports M > quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows  N > processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion daughter 4 > processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc.  H    I think you mwan what most of us call process based quotas vs. system    based quotas.  >    You were right up unti the 80's, but nowdays many UNIX have1    implimented process basd or user based quotas.a   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:45:09 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i Subject: Re: vms versus solarisb3 Message-ID: <nr5q6IzcTo8d@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <353do6F4heoajU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >   * > So, I'm not human?  Thanks a lot.... :-)  E    I didn't say you're not human, I said UNIX wasn't designed to deal-G    with you.  You had a bigger learning curve than you would have if it7    was.   G    No English speaker walking up to there first computer thinks "I need-"    to print a file, I'll try lpr."   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:55:19 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)R Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <WxIAUWrHAa60@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  \ In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:9 >> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter.   > E > Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS.o > J > Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMSP > because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM.  G    Not in any shop where I'm the system manager.  I've actually had oneuG    (1), count them : ONE programmer who set up cd, pwd, ... for his VMSf    account.   F    All true VMS users know that sd is the symbol for some command file*    that does nice things with set default.  I > and a "root account" is understood across platforms  much more than therI > "system account"  would be. So there are a lot of Unix terminology thatsA > has essentially become industry standard which allows people ofs1 > different OS religion to understand each other.I  E    My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account".  Some OS %    are even more prevalent than UNIX.4     >    But we've gotten far away from the OP's request to know theB    differences between Solaris and VMS.  We've done a lot of flameA    baiting, but I still stand by my original answers even if Bill.    doens't like them.a  H    Bill knows I think VMS is a superior OS, and I know VMS is a superior;    OS, but he read a lot of what he knows about me into hiskH    interpretation of my original response.  I haven't seen anything thatD    actually factually refutes any one of my points.  He just doesn't    like to hear me say them.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:59:23 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h Subject: Re: vms versus solarish3 Message-ID: <RD1hHw6EgC+a@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  c In article <S8+1lk0Igwib@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:aY > In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > K >> If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use somethings> >> else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it? > E > There are very few real-world applications best modeled as a streamt > of bytes.a  E    No, but you can create a lot of student homework applications withiD    just a stream of bytes.  Or singly-linked lists.  Or other little(    things you should avoid in real life.  C    With all the emphasis on OOP in the last decade, you might thinktG    somebody would realize data needs to be organized.  Oh, maybe that'so,    why Oracle is pulling down so much dough.  D    I know there are applications that need the full power of a DBMS.G    But I also know large numbers of Oracle data bases serving the needs     met by a $2K ISAM package.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:39:54 -0500t' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>r Subject: Re: vms versus solarisa, Message-ID: <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  . > In article <41EC88AA.6040702@tsoft-inc.com>,, > 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>( >>>>>Wether the user wants it to or not. >>>>>m >>>>>yS >>>>No, can't say that.  Using QIO you have access to files without any of the RMS yS >>>>overhead.  You can implement whatever type of file handling you wish, and have eB >>>>the DLM to easily implement whatever type of locking you wish. >>>> >>>>E >>>But which is the default when I say "OPEN" in Pascal or some other A >>>language? Yes, you can get around RMS, but VMS starts with the-E >>>everything including the kitchen sink.  Unix starts with the leaste? >>>and lets the user add on additional requirements.  Different6A >>>approaches to the same problem caused by the difference in thee> >>>underlying paradigm of the OS.  Neither one is better, just
 >>>different.h >>>  >>N >>When you say "OPEN" in Pascal, you're now talking about what a language and L >>compiler offer, not what the OS offers.  What happens when you open a VMS O >>channel to a file from Pascal?  You can now do I/O at the QIO level.  What's u
 >>your point?1 >> > F > Actually, I'm talking about what a Pascal Programmer is going to putJ > in his code. QIO isn't Pascal.  Just for grins, tell me which is faster.I > Using QIO or using the default IO provided by Pascal?  I am pretty sure1F > I already know the answer to that.  And the result is everybody getsE > overhead even when it really buys them nothing.  Unix philosophy is J > the other way around.  If you want more, use it, but everybody (probably% > the majority) don't really need it.1    Q I consider myself a BASIC programmer since I do more of that than anything else. sK   While there is a bunch of Macro-32 stuff, I don't use it enough to claim  O proficiency.  I think you have to do it all the time to be proficient.  As for  Q the Basic stuff, I could post multiple examples where I ASSIGN a VMS channel and :O perform QIO operations.  I can't see why the same couldn't be done from Pascal j when required.     >>I >>>>>There are alternatives that provide records and thus record locking.9 >>>>>w >>>>>oR >>>>Can you be a bit more definitive about "thus record locking"? Care to look at R >>>>it in a multi-system configuration?  With the exception of some IBM software, U >>>>I'm not aware of anything that can be considered in the same catagory as the VMS _ >>>>DLM. >>>> >>>>M >>>First, in order to have useful "record locking" you have to have somethingyM >>>that handles data as records.  It has already been stated (and accepted by1I >>>the Unix camp) that the default file system is just a stream of bytes.  >>>a >>Q >>So Ok, from within a program on Unix, I implement code that treats the file as tP >>records, calculating the record offset and bytecount and such.  Now, how do I R >>take out a lock on the string of bytes I am accessing that will be respected by > >>cooperating programs?  On VMS I can very easily use the DLM. >> > J > If you are implementing a system, it's up to you. If your using a systemH > someone else implemented, use theirs.  Obviuosly, Unix can't provide aE > record locking mechanism for a system it is unaware of.  And if the J > programs are "cooperating" it seems a trivial problem.  The real problemK > becomes locking out that program that doesn't want to cooperate.  I thinko" > that is what things like DLM do.    Q Nope!  Like any type of locking, it's a cooperative thing.  There was a thread a sN while back that discussed locks at the ACP level.  I'm pretty sure that I can K assign a channel and read from a file regardless of what other activity is hA occurring, so without cooperation, there is no effective locking.g  Q What's nice about the DLM is that it's not just something for files.  A lock can aN be taken out for any resource name, and all tasks that will respect that lock  can coordinate their activity.  G >>>As for multi-system configurations, I freely admit that no Unix I amoK >>>aware of can do what VMS does in that arena.  However, because everybody N >>>isn't flocking to VMS from Unix, apparently it isn't really that important. >>>d >>R >>Maybe Unix users have given up, or have devised workarounds, or don't even know S >>that such is possible.  All three possibilities make their work harder, and less :	 >>useful.  >> > I > Hardly.  There are just a lot of things that have come out of computingEM > research that actually affect a lot less people than you think.  of course,eI > another one of the advantages to unix is that if you want something and I > no one else does you are free (and it is technically possible) to do ittH > yourself because there are unixes available with the entire source andL > the legal right to re-engineer them.  Interestingly enough, you don't find > that happening very often. >  >  >  >>I >>>But, instead of trying to point out all these non-existant Unix short-tG >>>comings maybe it wold be better if you just pointed out what VMS can F >>>do that Unix can't.  That way you win and people who know the truthG >>>about Unix won't laugh behind your back after you have left the room ) >>>from a loosing sales presentation. :-)h >>>y >> >>Partial list:e >> >>Distributed Lock Manager >> > J > There's one. (Although there actually is a DLM for Unix.  It's just that= > most unix people haven't really found much use for it yet.)  >  > ! >>Robust development environment.a >> > ; > How is it more robust than the ones available under unix?     H Don't know.  I don't use Unix.  I do know that I can use many different I languages on VMS, including mixing together modules written in different xJ languages in the same application.  The common calling standard on VMS is P something I should have included in the list.  Don't know if Unix has the same. Q   However, the only language on VMS that can cause some problems is C.  Gotta be I> real careful when calling a C routine, or when calling from C.     >>VAX/DEC BASICh >> > 2 > Dykstra would say that was a strike against VMS.     Another bigot, like me?O   > And why is it any 0 > better than the BASIC(s) available under unix?    K For me, because I have a hugh amount of code, which probably wouldn't work fP without some conversion on another system.  Admittedly, that reason is specific P to me and other users of VAX/DEC BASIC, but there are more than a few, and it's  a very big issue to us.     1K >>Clustering, as it was originally defined, shared everything, not fallover: >> > I > Now you have two.  But this one only affects a small handfull of users.w    P Are you saying that because VMS has a small market share?  If not, then justify K your claim.  It's this capability that allows VMS to scale to the job, and iH adjust as job requirements change, all transparent to the applications. K Possibly your "small handful" actually do much more work than a very large O number of Unix users?a     >>DECnet >> > I > What is the advantage of DECnet over other networking protocols?  There0G > are lots of disadvantages.  Oh yeah, that has been available for unixnE > since the Ultrix days and while I have even used it, unless you areiI > also running VMS (or PDP-11's :-) it really hasn't much use in the unixo > world.    O Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other tM operating systems.  Got me on that one.  But, DECnet can be much more secure i5 than TCP/IP.  That might be of use to the Unix world.8    E >>Since I don't know Unix, some of the following may not be VMS only:  >> >>Global sections  >> > I > If this is Systemwide Logicals, unix can do that, but not as gracefully-	 > as VMS.-     Shared sections of memory.    % >>Access to system calls outside of Co >> > F > ??  Outside in what way?  Any language can call any library.  If youF > mean from a shell, I've never seen it done and because of the natureB > of the unix system calls I am not sure it would even make sense.    O Sometime in the past there was a thread on something similar to this.  I asked >M how to perform some task, and the replies indicated that the only access was >D through the use of a C library routine.  Can't remember the details.    
 >>Logicals >> > 1 > Got them.  Just don't call them the same thing.> >  > 	 >>Symbols  >> > D > Aren't they really the same as Logicals?  (I really don't know the > difference.)     No, not the same thing./     >>MailboxesD >> > F > Not sure of the real nature of VMS "Mailboxes".  I get my email in aD > "mailbox", but VMS seems to have a different meaning. I think thisG > is likely the same pty's or some combination of other methods of IPC.     P A VMS mailbox is a inter process communication device.  It can be sync or async.    H >>>>>When Unix users need this feature they use it.  But more oftne thanE >>>>>not, they don't need it.  Neither do they need the overhead sucha >>>>>systems bring with them.n >>>>>  >>Q >>How about, they don't use some features because they don't have them available?g >> > ; > If they really needed them, someone would implement them.:    O The problem here is that probably many people each do a custom implementation, nP which can be significant work.  With the capability already in VMS, the need to O implement is gone.  It's like 2 C libraries, one with minimal support, and one nE with a robust selection of capabilities.  Which would you rather use?    >  Heck, LinusD > Torvalds implemented another whole unix-like system because of hisD > warped sense that it was "needed".  And the developers flocked to G > him to expand it.  Do you really think that if there wa anything thatd> > was really seen as important that no one would implement it? >  > T >>>>As mentioned before, using the QIO interface, VMS can also do low overhead I/O. R >>>> The difference is with Unix, usually one must acquire additional capability, ? >>>>with associated costs, while the capability is part of VMS.5 >>>> >>>>D >>>Associated costs?  How much does Postgres cost?  Large amounts ofC >>>Unix software is available for the taking.  Again, difference inJD >>>philosophy.  I will put any package my users need (within reason,D >>>you won't find Doom) on our Unix servers.  The people who run the> >>>VMS system will not even put up stuff from the Freeware CD. >>>  >>>d >>S >>What some people will put on Unix, and what others will put on VMS, doesn't seem ": >>to have anything to do with a discussion on OS features. >> > J > The example was merely meant to show that the biggest difference betweenI > VMS and unix is philosophical between the two userbases.  Which is why eJ > it always seems to be a religous war rather than a technical discussion. >  > billG > PS. Hope it's warmer in your corner of the state than it is in mine!!y >  >    Down to 3 last night.  :-(   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:43:36 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Webcast inifinite looptB Message-ID: <1106066616.200231.21480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>  E I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of G Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do Id? have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button?.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:49:09 -0800) From: "Ken Robinson" <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com>e# Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop C Message-ID: <1106066949.904624.104460@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>p  
 AEF wrote:G > I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of.G > Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do/ IeA > have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button?k  D Same problem here...  Must be running a MicroShaft OS. :-) If you goD back to the launch page, launch the HTML version. There you can read the transcripts.   Ken    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:54:20 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com># Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loopkC Message-ID: <1106067260.930503.255010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>m  D Actually, I've found that if you relaunch the multimedia window, andF click on the spearker you want early enough, you get that speaker. ButD I just heard Marcello say something about "here's what our customers- say" followed by a repeat of the whole thing.   D This is the big Web cast? A bunch of hard-to-run taped speeches? I'dC try to see the Online chat, by Websense here forbids here. Oh well.y   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:10:06 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com># Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loopoC Message-ID: <1106068206.795318.167600@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   B Actually, Marcello's video stops short of what his HTML transcript gives.  D Triple digit growth? That could mean 200% increase from 1 to 3 total- servers sold. I'd like to see better numbers.   = 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good:S  G "With our third announcement for today, the list of available operatinglE environments just got longer, as we are releasing OpenVMS version 8.2.E on Integrity. The production release of OpenVMS 8.2 not only provides-G you with outstanding price/performance, reduces total cost of ownership D and offers investment protection for OpenVMS operating environments,< but also ensures greater adaptability and flexibility for IT environments in general."r   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:20:02 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com># Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite looppB Message-ID: <1106072402.106003.89600@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:s > AEF wrote:A > > 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good:i >l >mF > You went and looked for it. The average guy just heard the repeatingE > broken Carly loop that said nothing and went away. That loop didn'td > mention anything about VMS.-   Yes, that is unfortunate.    >0: > And of the few questions about VMS tha were allowe to beG > displayed/answer, there must have been plenty that weren't published.7G > But at least Livermore and company go to read the questions, and thato is > a way to send a message.  F Well, now we know why they don't advertise VMS! It's because they findC that customers don't view VMS as an industry standard! Fascinating.W   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:16:49 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>r# Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop., Message-ID: <41ED528A.7414BA90@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:? > 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good:a    D You went and looked for it. The average guy just heard the repeatingC broken Carly loop that said nothing and went away. That loop didn't4 mention anything about VMS.o  8 And of the few questions about VMS tha were allowe to beE displayed/answer, there must have been plenty that weren't published.tH But at least Livermore and company go to read the questions, and that is a way to send a message.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:28:24 -0800e# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>h# Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop>( Message-ID: <opsks9lm1mzgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On 18 Jan 2005 08:49:09 -0800, Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn@rbnsn.com> wrote:a   >  > AEF wrote:H >> I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop ofH >> Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do > ItB >> have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? >cF > Same problem here...  Must be running a MicroShaft OS. :-) If you goF > back to the launch page, launch the HTML version. There you can read > the transcripts. >r > Kena >uJ It continues refreshing making rather difficult to read, solution Select   all,! Copy and Paste into Emacs window.e     -- eC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/0   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:33:01 -0800 From: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.comB Subject: Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly)C Message-ID: <1106073181.412907.265100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    John Smith wrote:l; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/18/2302980a >g: > some additional comment and questions asked/not answered >  > F > Probably should continue in this thread by contributing questions we each! > asked that didn't get answered."  G Okay. Here's one from the Q&A chat that I captured... I know one of you 1 is responsible, I just want to know who to thank.r  C Q: When will the higher-ups at HP realize the value of VMS as beingsE not just another version of a toy operating system, or a billybox OS,eE and really tout it as unique, solid, reliable, mission-critical, etc?i? Or are you all so caught up in towing the Microsoft party line?   @ Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operatingD environments in the industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMSG available on Integrity speaks to the fact that HP executives understand-: its value and want it as a powerful part of our portfolio.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:28:09 -0500i# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> > Subject: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly), Message-ID: <Q4WdnQb4JvGnyHDcRVn-sQ@igs.net>  9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/18/2302980s  8 some additional comment and questions asked/not answered    I Probably should continue in this thread by contributing questions we eachn asked that didn't get answered.a   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:07:57 -0800& From: sales@pdflib.com (Karl Obermayr)< Subject: [Ann] Automatically generate PDF on VMS with PDFlib= Message-ID: <aa44851a.0501180907.1420291c@posting.google.com>e  - PDFlib GmbH releases PDFlib 6 for VMS/OpenVMSs  ; Munich, January 18, 2005 - PDFlib GmbH, leading producer ofyE internationally selling PDF-based document processing tools, recentlydC released PDFlib 6 for VMS on Alpha. PDFlib is a vastly enhanced newmA version of the popular multi- environment programming library forp, automated and server-centric PDF processing.  > PDFlib is a programming library which allows the programmer toE generate and manipulate PDF files and integrate this ability into anyoD application or server environment. PDFlib is available for all major< operating systems and development environments - now also on VMS/OpenVMS.  E PDFlib 6 adds many new features to the PDFlib product suite - PDFlib,t> PDFlib+PDI, PDFlib Personalization Server (PPS) - and improves> features that have already been highly appreciated in existing	 versions.G   Highlights are::  ? * Fonts: Font engine with full Unicode handling and support foreE Chinese, Japanese, and Korean fonts; Kerning for PostScript, TrueType@? and OpenType fonts; Subsetting for TrueType and OpenType fonts.h  F * Personalization using Blocks: Blocks are customized fields on top ofE PDF files, that can automatically be filled with variable data comingo? from a variety of sources. Blocks are interactively created and C designed using the PDFlib Block Plugin and can be filled with text, : images, or PDF pages in a subsequent server based process.  E * Layers: PDFlib supports all layer control features available in PDF D 1.5, including various controls which are not accessible in Acrobat.  D * Text formatting: The textflow formatter offers a powerful facilityD for formatting text according to a variety of options: Unicode text,F ragged or justified text, arbitrary font changes, multi-line body text or large tables.  B * Linearized PDF: PDFlib 6 generates linearized PDF, also known asF web-optimized PDF. This enables page-at-a-time download (also known asD byteserving) when viewing PDFs in the Web browser, and significantly enhances the user experience.t  C * Tagged PDF: Tagged PDF is the key for accessible PDF according toaB section 508 in the USA and similar regulations in other countries.E PDFlib is the first PDF library for general use which supports TaggedbE PDF generation. For the first time ever, PDF generated dynamically onh5 the Web server can satisfy accessibility regulations.y  @ * Form fields: All types of PDF form fields can be generated andF enhanced with JavaScript and other actions. This can be used to createD PDF forms dynamically subject to user input or database information.  E * PDF/X for Prepress: PDFlib 6 is the first software on the market tonC support generating and processing PDFs according to the latest 2003i@ editions of the ISO PDF/X standards for prepress (PDF/X-1a:2003,  PDF/X-2:2003, and PDF/X-3:2003).     General Product InformationaA The PDFlib 6 product line is available in different functionalitye levels:r  4 * PDFlib offers functions for generating PDF output.  ? * PDFlib+PDI includes all PDFlib functions, plus the PDF Import ? Library (PDI) for including existing PDF pages in the generatedf output.   C * The PDFlib Personalization Server (PPS) includes PDFlib+PDI, plusrA additional functions for automatically filling PDFlib blocks. PPStA includes the PDFlib Block Plugin for creating PDF personalizationf) templates interactively in Adobe Acrobat.d  C * PDFlib Lite is a subset of PDFlib. It is available as source code  and free for personal use.  D All products are distributed within a single binary package which isE fully functional for evaluation, but displays a demo stamp across allf? pages. All packages contain full documentation and examples fortD various programming languages. A valid license key will activate theE product levels accordingly. The PDFlib product suite is offered undert& several licensing and support options.    @ For further details please see: www.pdflib.com/products/vms.html    ----------------------------- PDFlib GmbHv Tal 40 D-80331 Mnchen> GERMANYo phone +49 89 29 16 46 87 fax  +49 89 29 16 46 86t sales@pdflib.com www.pdflib.com ------------------------------ e  E Munich-based PDFlib GmbH, founded in 2000, develops and sells leadingeF edge development tools for server-centric generation and processing ofC PDF documents. With currently 10 employees a revenue of 2.3 millioneE Euro was generated in 2003. Customers of PDFlib GmbH use the softwaree> for automated and high volume generation and processing of PDFB documents in business and prepress workflows or for online billingC systems. The development tools of PDFlib GmbH are readily availablet> for all common environments (operating systems and programmingF languages) as commercial versions and partially as open source. PDFlibD GmbH sells worldwide with main markets in North America, Germany andB Japan. PDFlib GmbH is led by Thomas Merz, internationally renowned expert on PDF.( ----------------------------------------   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.036 ************************