0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 19 Jan 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 37      Contents: Re: carly(tm) transcipt  Re: carly(tm) transcipt  Re: carly(tm) transcipt  Re: carly(tm) transcipt  Re: carly(tm) transcipt  Re: carly(tm) transcipt  Error log message  Re: Error log message  Re: Error log message 2 Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks6 Re: Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks% Re: HP Press release about 18th event 3 Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only? 3 Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only?  Re: Livermore transcript1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement % RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem 3 New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium  Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file  Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file  Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution1 Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) 1 Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)  VMS portions of ECWC "chat"  Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat"  Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat"  VMS related questions from chat  Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris
 VMS: Paradigm  Webcast and VMS  Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop9 Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:56:37 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: carly(tm) transciptB Message-ID: <1106073956.bfa47c0c401f898cbdaa769eb60e259f@teranews>  E In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I G noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well manicured  face and hair.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:47:48 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>   Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt, Message-ID: <8sSdnZOLdcJ4-nDcRVn-jg@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote: G > In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I ? > noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well  > manicured face and hair.      ( Ok, so you won't make a pass at her now.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 15:53:49 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>  Subject: Re: carly(tm) transciptC Message-ID: <1106092429.233131.267350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote: G > In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I ? > noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well 	 manicured  > face and hair.     Are you for real?    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:42:11 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>  Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt2 Message-ID: <7OjHd.6095$tk5.1540@news.cpqcorp.net>  $ No, he's not except in his own mind.  ; He and a handful of the regulars are simply at the point of # making every snide remark they can.     / "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message = news:1106092429.233131.267350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...  >  > JF Mezei wrote: I > > In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I A > > noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well  > manicured  > > face and hair. >  >  > Are you for real?  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:00:34 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>   Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt, Message-ID: <41EDDB62.7070602@tsoft-inc.com>  
 AEF wrote:   > JF Mezei wrote:  > G >>In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I ? >>noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well  >> > manicured  >  >>face and hair. >> >  >  > Are you for real?  >  >   O Don't go there.  It's a bit like, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might   get it."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:43:56 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>   Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt, Message-ID: <41EDE583.6EA29DC9@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote: > > Are you for real?  > >  > >  > P > Don't go there.  It's a bit like, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might
 > get it."  B Oh come on guys. There have been a constant flow of comments aboutH Carly's presentation, hairdo, private jets etc etc.  Why make such a big0 fuss about yet another comment about her image ?   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:17:23 -0800$ From: "ugex" <edgar_ulloa@yahoo.com> Subject: Error log messageC Message-ID: <1106086643.450509.249310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    I guys:   1 I have a cluster with 2 vax 4500 and one vax 4000 B yesterday one node in 4500 was hang and was necesary push the halt button.   8 The operator log show me a message than I never was see.  = some one knows if I have hardware issue (network card) o some  configuration error..?  " note: my sqlvax is the quorum disk    : Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000: Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX: Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000$ DSA11: shadow set has changed state. Mount verification in progress. : Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000: Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX: Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000   and the error log show me that:     NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VX4500$PEA0:   PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT   & LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X)  LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 00000000045F(X)  ' REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DD(X) ! REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000406(X)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:21:06 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Error log message+ Message-ID: <41EDC411.C78E4145@comcast.net>    ugex wrote:  > 	 > I guys:  > 3 > I have a cluster with 2 vax 4500 and one vax 4000 D > yesterday one node in 4500 was hang and was necesary push the halt	 > button.  > : > The operator log show me a message than I never was see. > ? > some one knows if I have hardware issue (network card) o some  > configuration error..? > $ > note: my sqlvax is the quorum disk > < > Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000< > Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX< > Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000& > DSA11: shadow set has changed state.! > Mount verification in progress. < > Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000< > Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX< > Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000 > ! > and the error log show me that:  > " > NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VX4500$PEA0: > ! > PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT  > ( > LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X)" > LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 00000000045F(X) > ) > REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DD(X) # > REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000406(X)   B Possibly a bad interface (looks like a CI interface) on VX4500, orB something else in its path to the cluster interconnect (bad cable, connection, etc.).   Maybe something else entirely.   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 20:21:59 -0800 From: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Error log messageC Message-ID: <1106108519.572906.119770@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>     NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VX4500$PEA0:  C Would seem to indicate it was using a LAN interface for the cluster G interconnect, wouldn't it?  If so, start checking the networking cards, G cables, switch/hub and the settings on all of these to see if something  has changed or gone bad.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:35:26 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ; Subject: Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks , Message-ID: <41ED730D.7736060A@teksavvy.com>  F http://forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2005/01/17/cx_ah_0117spyfry.html    (if the above doesn't work, try: > http://dw.com.com/redir?edId=3&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fforbes.com%2Fhome%2Fenterprisetech%2F2005%2F01%2F17%2Fcx_ah_0117spyfry.html&lop=mnaw.5540061&oId=2051-12-0&siteId=3&ontId=12&cid=755015   C Essentially, McDonald,s largest suplier in the USA had an employeed G download some spyware, that bit fo code spread throughout the corporate F network and essentially made the company,s it infrastructure come to aD halt. Payroll was delayed and it took 2 weeks to get things back up.    * Good example of the cost of going Windows.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:16:21 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ? Subject: Re: Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks , Message-ID: <_cednY1zpr044XDcRVn-1Q@igs.net>   JF Mezei wrote: H > http://forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2005/01/17/cx_ah_0117spyfry.html > " > (if the above doesn't work, try: >>L http://dw.com.com/redir?edId=3&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fforbes.com%2Fhome%2FenteL rprisetech%2F2005%2F01%2F17%2Fcx_ah_0117spyfry.html&lop=mnaw.5540061&oId=205# 1-12-0&siteId=3&ontId=12&cid=755015  > E > Essentially, McDonald,s largest suplier in the USA had an employeed ? > download some spyware, that bit fo code spread throughout the 9 > corporate network and essentially made the company,s it B > infrastructure come to a halt. Payroll was delayed and it took 2 > weeks to get things back up. >  > , > Good example of the cost of going Windows.    L Nothing that a $40,000 spyware site licence and a $40,000 antivirus licence,L and , and, and, and, etc... can't fix on top of the $1MM in multiple Windows Server licences.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:14:42 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> . Subject: Re: HP Press release about 18th event, Message-ID: <41ED6022.2010006@tsoft-inc.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:   : > In article <41EC9517.8050607@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: >  >  >>John Smith wrote:  >> >> >>>Keith Parris wrote: >>>  >>>  >>>>JF Mezei wrote:  >>>> >>>>5 >>>>>  HP (NYSE:HPQ)(Nasdaq:HPQ) today announced that 4 >>>>>  in its fiscal year 2004 the company surpassed* >>>>>  $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity4 >>>>>  server-related solutions, marking a milestone4 >>>>>  in the growing popularity of the servers as a5 >>>>>  leading choice for business' most demanding IT  >>>>>  workloads.  >>>>>  >>>>> G >>>>This is quite a significant number. And it can only get better with " >>>>the VMS announcement tomorrow. >>>> >>>>A >>>>>(so much about not being allowed to disclose number prior to  >>>>>  >>>>quarterly numbers) >>>>H >>>>Note that this data covers fiscal year 2004. What you aren't hearingH >>>>about here is how much has been sold in Q1FY2005. That would be data" >>>>covered by the "quiet period". >>>> >>>> >>> M >>>"surpassed $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity server-*related* solutions, L >>>marking a milestone in the growing popularity of the servers as a leading4 >>>choice for business' most demanding IT workloads. >>>  >  > ...  >  >  > L >>My only question is how much of the "software, storage, and services" was  >>purchased for Alphas?  >> > F > Evidently none of it, at least as I understand the phrase "Integrity > server-related".    L The way I read it, storage was being lumped together with server sales.  It J didn't read "just storage for Integrity servers".  So, can you answer the L question, is storage for Alphas NOT included in the overall storage numbers?  K > Look out!  There's another chunk of sky falling, and it's headed our way!  >   P Don't have a good answer, so attempt to divert the issue?  Is that the best you  have?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:42:08 -0500 0 From: Peter Sjoberg <peters38@techwiz.spamno.ca>< Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only?> Message-ID: <pan.2005.01.18.20.39.50.397355@techwiz.spamno.ca>  9 On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:26:24 +0000, Kenneth Farmer wrote:   = > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message  ( > news:41EC35E7.EB15E7C2@teksavvy.com...- >> Soem, additional information available at:  >>? >> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2005/integrity/  >>G >> Webcast is 1 hour long, with 30 minutes of presentations starting at ? >> 08:30 PT, and the chat with Ann Livermore starting at 09:PT.  >  >  > Look at the top of that page!  > 3 > "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" H It's not only HP to blame for that. In order for HP to get the big M$ swG discount they have to say that on every page. I think it was up in cort D and now they don't have to recommend MS Windows on platforms that MS doesn't support.J It's just like that HP pay MS one windows license for every intel box theyG sell and then the corporation they sold it to pay the license once more ' with there corporate license agreement.   J Please correct me and tell me that this is (no longer?) true. I have heard7 this so many times but I still don't know if it's true.    >  > Argh!  >  >  >  > Ken  > 
 > OpenVMS.org ' > _____________________________________  > Kenneth R. Farmer <>< ' > SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups E ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 05:43:54 GMT - From: Charlie Luce <lucejr@encompasserve.org> < Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only?C Message-ID: <usmHd.10404$pZ4.2928@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>   0 Direct link to the replay for the Flash-enabled:  ; http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/flashversion/index.html    --   CL   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:46 -0500 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: Livermore transcript = Message-ID: <QdadnWXwyYVh9HDcRVn-rg@metrocastcablevision.com>   D Wow - Ann certainly can shovel the manure with the best of them.  I  especially liked this part:    John Smith wrote:  > Ann Livermore ! > EVP, Technology Solutions Group    ...   J > More than just numbers from a lab, HP Integrity servers produce businessJ > results. For example, HP and Oracle outperform IBM DB2 on important dataG > warehousing benchmarks like TPC-H. These types of superior benchmarks F > continue across diverse workloads.across multiple servers.and across > multiple operating systems.   H Oh, really, Ann?  Let's take a closer look at TPC-H, since you chose to  bring it up:  E The only direct match-up between Superdome and POWER is at the 10000  I scale factor, and there indeed Superdome wins.  Of course, it's a recent  I 128 processor 1.5 GHz/6 MB Superdome cluster pitted against a 2-year-old  H 160-processor POWER4 (not even POWER4+, let alone POWER5) cluster (kind H of reminiscent of the interchange I just had with Fred about the Itanic I vs. Alpha face-off), so you might expect that result - and it's not that   crushing a win, even then.  D IBM doesn't seem to take TPC-H very seriously, at least in terms of G submitting systems for testing at anything like the rate that HP does.  I But it has submitted a top-of-the-line 16-processor POWER5 system at the  I 1000 scaling factor and obtained rather impressive results of 26156 QphH  F (or 1635 QphH per processor) at a cost of only $53/QphH.  The closest I point of comparison Superdome offers is a current 64-processor system at  E the 3000 scaling factor, with results of 45248 QphH (or 707 QphH per  " processor) at a cost of $109/QphH.  F Now, given POWER5's already-demonstrated near-linear scaling in TPC-C F from 16 processors right up to 64 processors, there's every reason to G suspect that at 64 processors it would beat the 64-processor Superdome  A TPC-H result by a factor of more than 2:1 (not the more than 3:1  H advantage it enjoys over Superdome in TPC-C at 64 processors, but still F rather decisive).  The TPC does discourage comparing TPC-H results at G different scaling factors, but a quick glance at the list demonstrates  I that when near-identical systems are tested at the 1000 and 3000 scaling  E factor the QphH results are with a few percent of each other, so the  H burden of proof would seem to be on Ann to prove otherwise if she wants I be met with anything other than derisive guffaws when she claims that HP   out-performs IBM on TPC-H.  F Looks like the frantic spin and outright lies comparing Itanic to its I competition weren't limited to the Compaq crew.  Is it a job requirement  I these days for high-level executives to discard every shred of integrity  I they may once have possessed, or it is just the ones we're unfortunately  $ most familiar with who have done so?   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 12:59:42 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement3 Message-ID: <OVJB1tW4d6r4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   K In article <87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com writes: . > "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes: > . >> Would you like some whine with your cheese? > C > Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the  > work you have done.    What ?  D After all the whining that goes on here, the speculation rather thanA solid technical discussion, you take offense when a VMS developer  reacts ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:20:22 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement* Message-ID: <41ED6176.60201@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Todd wrote:   > Rob Young wrote: > = >> In article <pNudnSvQd5ai3nHcRVn-vA@igs.net>, "John Smith"   >> <a@nonymous.com> writes:  >>= >>> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/17/8991740  >>> C >>> "Alpha customers will see 300 to 400 to 500 percent performance F >>> improvements," said Rich Marcello, HP's senior vice president and  >>> general ( >>> manager of business critcal servers.    O The above is quoted, so I'll assume it's what he said.  Notice that he doesn't  L say that Alpha users will see such improvement over their Alphas.  Possibly 6 they're to see such improvement over an earlier IA-64.  N Ok, I'm unfairly picking apart what he said.  Just having some fun.  I'm sure F that such improvements over MY Alphas is reasonable.  But that little 3 AlphaStation 200 4/233 sure works well for me.  :-)     H >>> I'll bite..... how's this measured..... a NOP loop? Are we going to  >>> have to F >>> wait a while to benchmark a  2001 vintage Compaq Alpha vs. a 2009  >>> vintage H >>> Itanic?  Or are they just going to send  Two-Fingers Vito around to  >>> kneecap  >>> the Alpha? >>>  >> >>H >>     Doesn't really say much does it?  Maybe one of the few benchmarks4 >>     for apples-to-apples would be SAP, we'll see. >>C >>     But from what we see in realworldtech , Montecito will be no I >>     slouch.  So maybe he is thinking or comparing Montecito to current  >>     EV7.  >  > J > Isn't it impressive what the advantage of two full process generations, K > 7 years of additional progress in core technology, and several times the  I > chip area can do?  At least as long as you don't want to compare large  I > systems (but weren't they the niche to which Itanic was supposed to be   > retreating these days?). >  > - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:24:55 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement, Message-ID: <41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com>   FredK wrote:  ; > Come on.  Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must  > have time on his hands.  > < > I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it.    G Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still being  O developed?  If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than the   itanic?    >  > * > <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message) > news:87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com...  > . >>"FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com> writes: >> >>. >>>Would you like some whine with your cheese? >>> C >>Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the  >>work you have done.  >> >>--  > >>Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 >>+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. B >>                                             West Australia 6076, >>comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot0 >>Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H >>EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. >> >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:47:06 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>: Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement2 Message-ID: <eBeHd.6058$lh5.4253@news.cpqcorp.net>  4 "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message& news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... > FredK wrote: > = > > Come on.  Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must  > > have time on his hands.  > > > > > I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it. >  > H > Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still beingL > developed?  If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than the 	 > itanic?  >   ; I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just ! figured out how to make VAX fast.   > Alpha, Itanium.  Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX.8 Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's< speed made it worth the pain.  Itanium is a pain in the ass,: but it will result in lower prices and higher performance.; Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium?  Sure, 8 probably.  But with enough money and enough smart people7 we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems  that outperform Alpha.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:58:00 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>: Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement1 Message-ID: <sLeHd.6060$zk5.769@news.cpqcorp.net>   ; The simple truth is that most of us don't even know what we : "really" think.  Get me alone, and pour a pint down me and= you might hear somehing "different" - but don't bet your life < that "it" is what I really think or some better model of the truth.  : HP is my employer, and it is not in my interest to say bad= things about them in public.  But nothing in my job code says < I have to say anything at all in this forum.  If you want to< read between any mythical lines, you would do better to look9 at what I choose to make a comment about, and what I will  not comment on.   ? Bill is simply a well known crank with an axe to grind.  He has < been strangely quiet for a long time, but I have noticed him8 start to turn back up (with the same song book) in other8 forums, and now here.  If Itanium were to come out 1000%; faster than anything else on the planet, his comments would = be that A) Alpha would have been faster, B) You can't believe 5 the numbers, C) The power per mm is too high, D) That . AMD will have something even faster next week.  ? I'll guess that A) the elections are over.  B) some project has ; wrapped up. or C) it's winter -  as my top 3 reasons why he  is back.        - "nobody" <nobody@nobody.org> wrote in message $ news:41ED6B29.DC50E240@nobody.org... > Dave Froble wrote: > > FredK wrote:@ > > > I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it. > > J > > Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still beingI > > developed?  If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall  than the > > itanic?  > F > Don't put DECies in a difficult situation. They have to defend their employer-du-jour.  > F > I am sure that in the correct environment, with the right amount andG > type of liquid, Hoff, Fred and Sue might be able to reveal their true H > feelings. But in here, you can only expect them to work hard to defendH > their employer. It isn't right to corner them and ask them to publiclyH > reveal their own opinions which may not match that of their employers.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:01:59 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement, Message-ID: <886dnZgCOMvV5HDcRVn-tA@igs.net>   FredK wrote:6 > "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message( > news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... >> FredK wrote:  >>= >>> Come on.  Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must  >>> have time on his hands.  >>> > >>> I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it. >> >>C >> Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still F >> being developed?  If it was, would you expect it to still be better >> overall than the itanic?  >> > = > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just # > figured out how to make VAX fast.  > @ > Alpha, Itanium.  Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX.: > Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's> > speed made it worth the pain.  Itanium is a pain in the ass,< > but it will result in lower prices and higher performance.= > Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium?  Sure, : > probably.  But with enough money and enough smart people9 > we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems  > that outperform Alpha.    G Problem is all the smart chip guys are gone, and all the money has been 4 spent twice over (VAX -> Alpha and Alpha -> Itanic).  J So we live with what we've got - EV7z shrunk once again until Itanic has aF wooden stake driven into its cold heart and EV8 is released  ;-)  Just hoping.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:06:44 -0700  From: "E.S." <emu@ecubics.com>: Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement7 Message-ID: <DTeHd.5016$%h1.2477@fe39.usenetserver.com>    FredK wrote:  = > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just # > figured out how to make VAX fast.  > @ > Alpha, Itanium.  Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX.: > Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's> > speed made it worth the pain.  Itanium is a pain in the ass,< > but it will result in lower prices and higher performance.= > Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium?  Sure, : > probably.  But with enough money and enough smart people9 > we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems  > that outperform Alpha.  C With todays technology it would be easy to squeeze few hundred VUPS 9 out of a VAX, probably even 4 digits. THAT would be fun !    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:39:15 GMT * From: "FredK" <fred.nospam@nospam.dec.com>: Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement2 Message-ID: <7mfHd.6066$Rm5.5357@news.cpqcorp.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message& news:886dnZgCOMvV5HDcRVn-tA@igs.net... > L > So we live with what we've got - EV7z shrunk once again until Itanic has aH > wooden stake driven into its cold heart and EV8 is released  ;-)  Just	 > hoping.  >   > Or Itanium, despite derision from its detractors, continues to( move forward, gets faster, gets cheaper.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:17:37 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement, Message-ID: <41EDD151.7020004@tsoft-inc.com>   FredK wrote:  6 > "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message( > news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... >  >>FredK wrote: >> >>< >>>Come on.  Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must >>>have time on his hands. >>> = >>>I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it.  >>>  >>H >>Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still beingL >>developed?  If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than >> > the  > 	 >>itanic?  >> >> > = > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just # > figured out how to make VAX fast.     ) ALL - RRRRRRIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT !!!!!     @ > Alpha, Itanium.  Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX.: > Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's> > speed made it worth the pain.  Itanium is a pain in the ass,< > but it will result in lower prices and higher performance.= > Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium?  Sure, : > probably.  But with enough money and enough smart people9 > we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems  > that outperform Alpha.    C What can I say.  It's beyond anything I could have dreamed of.  :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:31:13 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement* Message-ID: <41EDD481.60201@tsoft-inc.com>   John Smith wrote:    > FredK wrote: > 6 >>"Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message( >>news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... >> >>>FredK wrote:  >>>  >>> = >>>>Come on.  Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must  >>>>have time on his hands.  >>>>> >>>>I'm just tossing him grapefruits.  Trust me, he enjoys it. >>>> >>> C >>>Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still F >>>being developed?  If it was, would you expect it to still be better >>>overall than the itanic?  >>>  >>> = >>I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just # >>figured out how to make VAX fast.  >>@ >>Alpha, Itanium.  Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX.: >>Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's> >>speed made it worth the pain.  Itanium is a pain in the ass,< >>but it will result in lower prices and higher performance.= >>Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium?  Sure, : >>probably.  But with enough money and enough smart people9 >>we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems  >>that outperform Alpha. >> >  > I > Problem is all the smart chip guys are gone, and all the money has been 6 > spent twice over (VAX -> Alpha and Alpha -> Itanic). > L > So we live with what we've got - EV7z shrunk once again until Itanic has aH > wooden stake driven into its cold heart and EV8 is released  ;-)  Just	 > hoping.     K Here's where some of us differ.  Yeah, forcing customers to spend money to  N convert to IA-64, however easy the task is made, was basically bad.  Very bad.  O Hey, now is now.  The itanic is all we got.  If it's working well enough, fine  P by me.  Yes, I think EPIC is rather a stupid thing to do.  So what.  If it runs > my programs, I'm a whole bunch happier than having no options.  Q My big concern is whether the itanic will survive.  If Alpha couldn't survive in  P the low volume world, why would any other CPU?  It's not that IA-32 was as good N as VAX and Alpha, but it could do enough things that people previously did on M VMS that it caused the VMS user base to shrink.  Not so much the serious (my aJ perspective) users, but the trivial users.  I knew of plenty of VAXs that P existed to run Word-11, WPS, and such.  When the PC did it much cheaper, only a D fool would pay more to do it on a VAX with character cell terminals.  L So what's different now?  Not a damn thing.  IA-32 is still there, and dirt M cheap.  Athlon-64 and Opteron are now there to further erode those tasks the tP more expensive systems retained.  Ok, something is different, the tasks for the I itanic are even less.  Only Intel's ego will keep it going, and with the  P Doberman's (AMD) teeth sunk firmly into their ass, they don't have time for ego.   That's my concern.   Dave   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:10:09 +0000 (UTC)s6 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER). Subject: RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem0 Message-ID: <newscache$xk9jai$tfh$1@news.sil.at>  q In article <pan.2005.01.18.18.03.03.727461@techwiz.spamno.ca>, Peter Sjoberg <peters38@techwiz.spamno.ca> writes:eE >On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:31:31 +0000, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:mQ >> No need to sign up at all. ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-1/sK >Probably works also if you know what you looking for or don't mind reading" >all release notes.u  E Which are not that much. Start with the following (mind the wrapping)mQ ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-2/ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txtl   -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERm% Network and OpenVMS system specialists E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atF A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:45:30 +0100 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>< Subject: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSB Message-ID: <41ed756b$0$17612$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>  I Just a "heads-up" for those who missed these links during the OpenVMS on e Itanium announcement today...e  % OpenVMS Version 8.2 announcement page 1 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms82_announce.html   ) HP OpenVMS : Still exceeding expectationsm@ http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/openvms_brochure.htm7 http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5982-9831EN.pdfe9 http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_0105a.pdfs  = HP OpenVMS V8.2 : The evolution and investment continue - PDFp> http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/HP_OpenVMS_V8.2_Wp.pdf  H HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 (OpenVMS I64) Business Practices for HP  Integrity Servers - PDF-? http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_Biz_Prac_wp.pdf,  % HP OpenVMS 2005 Business Solutions CDz4 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/business_solutions_cd.html  < The HP OpenVMS Approach to High Availability Computing - PDF9 http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_HA_WP.pdfh  & HP OpenVMS and the Adaptive Enterprise> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/adaptenterprise/index.html  F This informative new video celebrates the legendary OpenVMS operating F system now available on Integrity servers. "OpenVMS continues to be a F strategic platform for HP. This is demonstrated by the new release of H OpenVMS Version 8.2 for both Integrity servers and AlphaServer systems. D With OpenVMS now supporting Integrity servers, we have expanded our H multi-OS capability" states Ann Livermore, Executive Vice President for D the HP Technology Solutions Group. This video also features several H field-test customers of OpenVMS Version 8.2, as well as Mark Gorham, VP H OpenVMS systems and Jack Novia, Senior VP and Managing Director for the 	 Americas.M@ http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/integrity_video.html  * HP Integrity server family animation video4 http://www.hpbroadband.com/program.cfm?key=integrity   Cheers!h   Keith Cayembergo   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:33:40 GMT+ From: "Doc." <doc.cypher@openvms-rocks.com>s@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS7 Message-ID: <Xns95E2E5B02A22Ddcovmsrox@212.100.160.123>n  G %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Keith Cayemberg wrote in news:41ed756b$0$17612$9b4e6d93o @newsread4.arcor-online.net   ' > OpenVMS Version 8.2 announcement pageo3 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms82_announce.html1  H We get lots of advertising suggestions here, why not put them somewhere 	 else too?l   http://slashdot.org/submit.pla     Doc. -- oG OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:27:07 GMTl6 From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@NOSPAM.spyderbyte.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS= Message-ID: <%2gHd.4237$K72.1023220@twister.southeast.rr.com>h  % Nice Keith.  I posted on OpenVMS.org.e  = Doc suggested Slashdot.org.  I would also suggest OSNews.com.a   Ken    OpenVMS.orgd% _____________________________________  Kenneth R. Farmer <><e% SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.comy      > "Keith Cayemberg" <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> wrote in message < news:41ed756b$0$17612$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... >eK > Just a "heads-up" for those who missed these links during the OpenVMS on E > Itanium announcement today...a >F' > OpenVMS Version 8.2 announcement page 3 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms82_announce.htmla >u+ > HP OpenVMS : Still exceeding expectations"B > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/openvms_brochure.htm9 > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5982-9831EN.pdfy; > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_0105a.pdfa >?? > HP OpenVMS V8.2 : The evolution and investment continue - PDF-@ > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/HP_OpenVMS_V8.2_Wp.pdf >eJ > HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 (OpenVMS I64) Business Practices for HP  > Integrity Servers - PDFwA > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_Biz_Prac_wp.pdfn >n' > HP OpenVMS 2005 Business Solutions CD 6 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/business_solutions_cd.html > > > The HP OpenVMS Approach to High Availability Computing - PDF; > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_HA_WP.pdf  > ( > HP OpenVMS and the Adaptive Enterprise@ > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/adaptenterprise/index.html > H > This informative new video celebrates the legendary OpenVMS operating H > system now available on Integrity servers. "OpenVMS continues to be a H > strategic platform for HP. This is demonstrated by the new release of J > OpenVMS Version 8.2 for both Integrity servers and AlphaServer systems. F > With OpenVMS now supporting Integrity servers, we have expanded our J > multi-OS capability" states Ann Livermore, Executive Vice President for F > the HP Technology Solutions Group. This video also features several J > field-test customers of OpenVMS Version 8.2, as well as Mark Gorham, VP J > OpenVMS systems and Jack Novia, Senior VP and Managing Director for the  > Americas.<B > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/integrity_video.html > , > HP Integrity server family animation video6 > http://www.hpbroadband.com/program.cfm?key=integrity >a	 > Cheers!4 >  > Keith Cayemberg    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:58:38 -0500p' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> $ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium, Message-ID: <41ED5C5E.1070200@tsoft-inc.com>   Robert Deininger wrote:   : > In article <41EC90D7.2020005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble > <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote: >  >  >>Keith Parris wrote:1 >> >>H >>>Integrity Servers cost less than the equivalent Alpha box (thanks to K >>>economies of scale). So it's not hard to convince intelligent people to n >>>purchase them.o >>>L >>1 >>Can you be specific about "economies of scale"?o >> >> >  > ...1 >  > N >>Does an Alpha box really cost more to mfg?  My bet is that HP is charging a Q >>premium for Alpha, since the only customers left don't have any other choices. 0Q >>A bit like a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 costing twice as much as an Alpha that was F >>10 times faster. >> > C > Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar IntegrityED > systems.  You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the? > public.  Since they're not, you're safe with your wild publich > speculations.n    / Nice shot, but is doesn't address the question.n    J > The HP system designers are have traditionally been much more cost-awareJ > than the Alpha system designers at Digital.  Integrity systems have muchG > more re-use of components and subsystems, for example.  The HP design.K > teams are just better at low-cost design than their Digital counterparts,mJ > likely because their managers have pushed for low cost for years.  ThereI > is a cultural difference that couldn't happen overnight even if Digitalh* > had wanted to design lower-cost servers. >   N Your responce seems to indicate that it's the system design, not the CPU chip N that makes the difference.  Does that indicate that the HP design teams could P produce an Alpha CPU based system at a cost comparable to an IA-64 based system?  C If not, then what makes a system using an Alpha CPU more expensive.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:33:36 GMTa5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger)f$ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & ItaniumL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1801052333350001@user-uinj47g.dialup.mindspring.com>  8 In article <41ED5C5E.1070200@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:   >Robert Deininger wrote: >o; >> In article <41EC90D7.2020005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble% >> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:e >> 2 >> F >>>Keith Parris wrote: >>>m >>>=I >>>>Integrity Servers cost less than the equivalent Alpha box (thanks to DL >>>>economies of scale). So it's not hard to convince intelligent people to  >>>>purchase them. >>>> >>>u2 >>>Can you be specific about "economies of scale"? >>>y >>>  >> s >> ... >>   >>  O >>>Does an Alpha box really cost more to mfg?  My bet is that HP is charging a aH >>>premium for Alpha, since the only customers left don't have any other	 choices.  H >>>A bit like a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 costing twice as much as an Alpha	 that was o >>>10 times faster.  >>>n >>  D >> Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar IntegrityE >> systems.  You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to ther@ >> public.  Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public >> speculations. >U >h0 >Nice shot, but is doesn't address the question.   See my reply to J.F.    K >> The HP system designers are have traditionally been much more cost-aware K >> than the Alpha system designers at Digital.  Integrity systems have muchoH >> more re-use of components and subsystems, for example.  The HP designL >> teams are just better at low-cost design than their Digital counterparts,K >> likely because their managers have pushed for low cost for years.  There J >> is a cultural difference that couldn't happen overnight even if Digital+ >> had wanted to design lower-cost servers.e >>   > O >Your responce seems to indicate that it's the system design, not the CPU chip lO >that makes the difference.  Does that indicate that the HP design teams could 0I >produce an Alpha CPU based system at a cost comparable to an IA-64 based  system?h  G Yes, the whole system design determines the cost.  The CPU chip is justo one part of the problem.  J I suspect either team could come up with a lower-cost Alpha server design,F but only if they got to start from scratch and not be tied to existingB design tradition.  And only if low cost was a clear goal backed byD management.  In that situation (which hasn't existed for Alpha for a= decade, maybe never) I don't know which team would do better.e  J Of course, starting from scratch would add a couple of years to the design9 cycle, which might lead to a product with other problems.n  B DS15 was brought to market at breakneck speed.  They had to re-useI (conceptually) almost everything, mainly from DS25 and DS10.  They HAD totI finish quickly, but a secondary goal was to reduce the cost.  They tried,bH but the result is pretty disappointing compared to an rx1600 or rx2600. I If DS15 had abandoned the short design cycle and the reuse, it could haveuI been cheaper.  But a DS15 12 or 18 or 24 months later might have been too 4 weak a product to be interesting in the marketplace.  aD >If not, then what makes a system using an Alpha CPU more expensive.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:10:35 GMTu5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) $ Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & ItaniumL Message-ID: <rdeininger-1801052310340001@user-uinj47g.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <41ED4783.F705C654@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezeit% <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:.   >Robert Deininger wrote:D >> Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar IntegrityE >> systems.  You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the @ >> public.  Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public >> speculations. >e5 >Why should an Alpha box cost more than an IA64 box ?y >Is the the power supply ?   Almost always.   >Is it the case ?    Usually.   >Is it the disk drives ?  
 Probably not.-   >Is it the connectors ?    Yes.     >Is it the type of memory ?    Often.    < >Are alpha servers built with gold solder  instead of lead ?   No.s   >?I >If it is just the chip which is different, then I doubt that Alpha chips I >actualy cost more than IA64, especially if HP ordered one large batch of.# >them made for a final production. e  F Alpha CPUs do in fact cost a lot more than IA64.  I don't know why.  I< don't think either benefits greatly from economies of scale.  E But if you spend 5 minutes inside a recent alpha server and a similarsB Integrity server, you will see that it's NOT just the CPU which is
 different.  % >(Higher volum the smaller quaktitiesoI >of IA64s being made in light of the fact that the chip is still evolving A >and you don't want to stockpile years worth of Merced supplies).M >wI >If IA64 and Alpha servers are of same quality, I do not buy the argument G >that the Alpha has to be more expensive. Remember that many were  donesE >under Compaq which also had good "low cost manufacturing" expertise.r    I Alpha systems might not HAVE TO cost more, but they do.  Low-cost designs G were simply not a strength of the Digital server design teams, and were H not a particular interest of the management food chain.  Could they haveF done better?  Yes, but they rarely did in practice.  Alpha servers areD (mostly) excellent designs, but low-cost was not high on the list of8 goals.  That might be one reason Digital didn't survive.  J They merger with Compaq did not affect the way Alpha systems were designedF at all.  The Digital teams pretty much continued as always, until theyG were dispersed.  The supply chain overlap between Alpha systems and the F Compaq PC business was pretty minor -- disk drives, CD-ROMs, sometimes" memory.  Not a heck of a lot else.  @ The Digital and Compaq manufacturing facilities weren't combinedE particularly well either.  Compaq may have had low cost manufacturing@I expertise for PCs, but it never transfered to the server business.  Theres. were some notable failures at trying to do so.  H The HP teams that design and build IA64 systems pay particular attentionF to cost.  There is increasing overlap in the supply chains for PCs andH servers.  There are fewer minor variations in parts, meaning fewer typesG of spares to buy and stock.  HP is just better at low-cost servers thanmJ Digital was, and the prices for customers reflect this.  Folks might enjoyG bashing HP, but they deserve credit for doing a pretty good job in this  area.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:34:18 -0800t! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca>r( Subject: Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file( Message-ID: <41ED64BA.2070802@triumf.ca>   John,b  ?    It's getting away from the original idea of SIMPLE, granted.v<    However, like I tell my students - the only way you don't;    get any complaints or comments about your code is either =    when it's completely perfect to start with, or when nobodyP7    uses it at all.  So if they get no feedback on theirp=    software, the latter scenario is much more likely.  I tell/=    them that when people notice things and request changes ors@    additions, or when people complain, it means that people find=    the software interesting and useful.  Complaints are good.I     *********h  =    Mouse-copying straight into EVE and exiting as BIGVIEW.TPU     gave errors when I ran it asB  V   BIGV*IEW == "EDIT/TPU/READ/COMMAND=SYS$LOGIN:BIGVIEW.TPU/NOINIT/NOSECTION/NOJOURNAL"  @    so I figured TPU must not like some particular line wrapping.?    I concatenated the "set (status_line.... " line.  Works likes    a charm!  Thanks!  ?    I wasn't the original poster/requester on this thread, but Ir?    thought this was just too good a thread to miss....   I'm soa@    glad to see that our good friend Ken Fairfield joined in withA    ideas.  He's another TPU genious (unlike myself who stuck with     DCL).  >    Clever use of split_line moves on the screen but NOT in the    buffer.  Nice.i  D    I think you also have potentially solved the shift-right problem.B    Since you specify the escape#3 / 4  in the copy_text command asB    a string-literal anyway, you many have escaped (pardon the pun)?    the problem that Ken noticed - all one needs to do is take atB    piece of the_line which is shifted to the right by the selected?    shift amount, and put that into the copy_text along with theq?    escape sequence which is already there.  Nice.  This is justs*    getting better and better all the time!  @    I was thinking of changing the coding so that kp9 was page-upA    kp3 was page-down, kp8 was line-up, kp2 was line-down, kp6 wase@    shift-right and kp4 was shift left.  kp7 could be top-of-file@    and kp1 would be exit.  This matches the keypad on my FujitsuA    PC keyboard model FKB4725.  I suppose we would eventually needt=    to find a job for the kp5 key, maybe toggle from normal toe?    double-sized.  I suppose for that one would have to remember ?    where the cursor is and then just rewrite the screen to thatn)    point and restore the cursor position.h  @    Or, maybe kp5 could be the exit key and kp1 could jump to the@    end of the buffer (again matching the keyboard markings), and=    kp+ could toggle between the various double-wide/high/sizep>    options and kp- could restore normal-sized text.  There areA    many options.  I don't think there is any existing VMS programo2    that does what we are designing here, is there?  
    Cheers,  )   .. Fred Bach  music at triumf dot ca ..    Big John wrote:F# > Well I can't resist a challenge..m > B > I decided that I would see if I could do it between the start of> > lunch time and the time the microwave went ping for my food. > = > This is what I threw up. (Sorry, put together). I made some- > assumptions.. > - 'Double size' means both height and width.; > - 'By default' means it displays it only in that size. No:  > clever keystroke to toggle it. >  > Here is BIGVIEW.TPU4 > 5 > input_file := GET_INFO (COMMAND_LINE, "file_name");o6 > input_buffer := CREATE_BUFFER ("input", input_file);' > main_buffer:= CREATE_BUFFER ("main");m5 > window_size := (GET_INFO(screen,"length")+1)/2*2-1;s > ) > position (BEGINNING_OF (input_buffer));e > LOOP/ > exitif (mark(none) = end_of(current_buffer));m > the_line := current_line;l" > position (end_of (main_buffer));& > copy_text (ascii(27)+"#3"+the_line);
 > split_line; & > copy_text (ascii(27)+"#4"+the_line); > position (input_buffer); > move_vertical (1);
 > ENDLOOP; > ( > position (BEGINNING_OF (main_buffer));1 > main_window := create_window(1,window_size,ON);r& > SET (TEXT,main_window,NO_TRANSLATE);) > set (status_line, main_window, REVERSE,eB > "  |Up = 8|  |Down = 2|  |Page Up = 4|  |Page down = 6|  |Exit = > 1|" ); > 3 > the_key_map      := create_key_map ("user_keys");.C > the_key_map_list := create_key_map_list ("keylist", the_key_map);r > 1 > set (UNDEFINED_KEY, the_key_map_list, "abort");m6 > set (KEY_MAP_LIST,  the_key_map_list,  main_buffer);. > set (SELF_INSERT,   the_key_map_list,  OFF); >   > MAP (main_window,main_buffer); > message (ascii(27)+"[?25l"); >  > ! 8 > define_key ("message(ascii(27)+'[?25h');QUIT (OFF,1)",8 > kp1,                                     the_key_map);8 > define_key ("message(ascii(27)+'[?25h');QUIT (OFF,1)",8 > KEY_NAME ("1"),                          the_key_map); > + > define_key ("scroll (current_window, 2)",77 > kp2,                                    the_key_map);w+ > define_key ("scroll (current_window, 2)",d7 > KEY_NAME ("2"),                         the_key_map);e >  > , > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -2)",8 > kp8,                                     the_key_map);, > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -2)",8 > KEY_NAME ("8"),                          the_key_map); > 7 > define_key ("scroll (current_window, window_size-3)",m8 > kp6,                                     the_key_map);7 > define_key ("scroll (current_window, window_size-3)",68 > KEY_NAME ("6"),                          the_key_map); > 8 > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -window_size+3)",9 > kp4,                                      the_key_map);u8 > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -window_size+3)",9 > KEY_NAME ("4"),                           the_key_map);  > + > define_key ("scroll (current_window, 2)",l7 > down,                                   the_key_map);m > , > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -2)",8 > up,                                      the_key_map); > !: >  > Yeah! Bon appetit! >  > - John >  >  >  > Ken Fairfield wrote: >  >>Big John wrote:p >> >> >>>Fred Bach wrote:h >> >>[...]u >>; >>>>  ps.  Is there any way to make TPU display the file in A >>>>       doublesized letters by default?  I know how to do that  >>>>       in DCL.   ..fwb.  >>>> >>>  >>> ? >>>That sounds like a challenge! The answer is - Yes, there is.u >>= >>    But the problem is under-specified!  First, do you want>= >>double-high/wide, or just double-wide, letters?  Second, doi: >>you want to turn this on and off by a keystroke, or just  >>always display the text large? >>< >>    I agree with John that this is a challenge, especially9 >>in the context of SIMPLE.TPU...which was supposed to be57 >>simple but this adds considerable complication... :-)t >>< >>    Two hints are that, for double-wide, each line of text: >>must be prefixed with <esc>#6, but for double-high/wide,: >>each line must be duplicated with the first of each pair? >>prefixed with <esc>#3 and the second with <esc>#4.  Secondly, ; >>one uses SET(TEXT,CURRENT_WINDOW,NO_TRANSLATE) to get thep< >>characters displayed large in the TPU window.  (To revert,& >>replace NO_TRANSLATE by BLANK_TABS.) >>B >>    So you wind up reading the file into a buffer and processing= >>it a line at a time, either in-place or to a second buffer, 9 >>adding the prefix escape sequences as required and then 6 >>displaying the results in a window set NO_TRANSLATE. >>A >>    A final complication is that if you shift the window right,i? >>the text reverts to normal display (the escape sequences havea" >>been shifted out of the window). >>+ >>    Other than that, its just a SMOP. :-)  >> >>	-Kenu >>--8 >>I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >> >>Ken Fairfield-# >>D1C Automation VMS System Support1$ >>who:   kenneth dot h dot fairfield >>where: intel dot com >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:37:15 -0800e! From: Fred Bach <music@triumf.ca> ( Subject: Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file( Message-ID: <41ED656B.7010207@triumf.ca>   Peter,  *   The challenge was for a plain old VT100.    '   --  Fred Bach  music at triumf dot ca       Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote:  
      [ snip ]  >> >>Here is BIGVIEW.TPUe >  > M > Has anyone thought of the MOTIF Interface of EVE and setting bigger fonts ?h >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:39:26 -0500w# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e Subject: Re: Solutiont, Message-ID: <Nf-dneyXPc1DynDcRVn-ug@igs.net>    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:7 > In article <41ED55F6.5B2DE9FF@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezeii( > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >> Ken Robinson wrote:F >>> It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" >>> and then continues...u >> >>> >> I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMSE >> loyalists, had been told to expect great things from this LIVE webeC >> cast. Not only is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and notiE >> only is this just a pre-recorded message devoid of content, but itt+ >> does nothing to increase VMS's exposure.  >>D >> The articles and press releases of yesterday had far more content >> than today's supposed event.i >> >>F >> In fairness, the choice of flash over microsoft is a good politicalG >> move, even if from a technology point of view, it doesn't seem to be.F >> ready for prime time. Flash is available on far more platforms than >> Microsoft media thing.  >>F >> Airbus also tried used flash earlier today for its unveiling of theE >> A380 beast.  I did manage to get a couple of frames after about aneE >> hour. Thankfully the BBC carried a lot of the presentation. But ati$ >> lea theyd to stream live content. >>C >> It is amazing that web technologies  are fairly mature and there ; >> should be experience on capacity planning and testing oft- >> "facilities" to provide reliable webcasts.o >r >eB > Hmmm.  Steve Jobs' keynote from Macworld San Francisco '05 plays > flawlesslyD > and much better quality than the Flash of the "Great HP OpenVMS on
 > Itanium"? > we were asked to tune into today.  Perhaps, HP needs to adoptM > QuickTime to* > go along with the iPods they've adopted.    G Apple isn't ashamed to promote the technology they developed/own. HP isi (VMS....Q.E.D.).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:14:35 +0000 - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>  Subject: Re: Solutionm8 Message-ID: <vrnqu0530uv9gjgrdtchu7i3thb1hl3tug@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:36:30 GMT, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:l  % >Perhaps, HP needs to adopt QuickTimei  D Oh Ghod please no.  QT on Windows is terrible.  iTunes on Windows isF terrible (alone amongst about 8 audio players on my kids PC, it cannotG detect audio tracks on audio CDs).  I'm sure they are all great apps on,# Macs, where they should stay, imho.    -- s. Always forgive your enemies.  They HATE that!    Mail john rather than nospam...e   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:00:50 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: SolutionlC Message-ID: <1106082050.867378.242870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>n   JF Mezei wrote:g > Ken Robinson wrote:uF > > It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and  > > then continues...s >t >i= > I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS(
 loyalists,C > had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web cast. Notk onlyG > is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not only is this just a @ > pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it does nothing to increase > VMS's exposure.:  E Well, VMS is placed prominently on the New Products page. In fact, itcG is placed by itself, second, with the other OS's lumped together in onenD section at the end. Click on the VMS link and you are off into pages that promote VMS and only VMS.   So it is not NOTHING.   E Frankly, while certainly not cause for maximum euphoria, this WebcastA6 was definitely better re VMS than I expected it to be.  D Again, I encourage cov readers to take up Ann's call for suggestionsD for promoting VMS. It is easy to gripe, but griping won't help much.( Please keep it polite and constructive!    [...]e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:47:48 -0500p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: Solution.+ Message-ID: <41EDAE2D.39283C1@teksavvy.com>o  
 AEF wrote:G > Well, VMS is placed prominently on the New Products page. In fact, it I > is placed by itself, second, with the other OS's lumped together in oner > section at the end.     A I went to www.hp.com and to the la fiorina web presentation page.eE Couldn't find a "New Products Page". How does one go hunting for that": page when one knows the page is supposed to be somewhere ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:43:18 -0800i# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>d: Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)( Message-ID: <opsktaagnazgicya@hyrrokkin>  H On 18 Jan 2005 11:31:25 -0600, Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net>   wrote:  ; > From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF :  > Source Listings Kits; > QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License 9 > QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License-! > OpenVMS Source Listings Service 3 > QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Services1 > QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings ServicetA > QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX) 0 > and QT- gets you updates as they are released.  I And we can get these through DSPP?  I think you indicated in an earlier  u post4 that it was no longer available through Businesslink   -- oC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/    ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:49:10 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris)3 Message-ID: <dwFHDHC7$cln@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  N In article <opsktaagnazgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:J > On 18 Jan 2005 11:31:25 -0600, Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net>   > wrote: > < >> From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF : >> Source Listings Kits < >> QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License: >> QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License" >> OpenVMS Source Listings Service4 >> QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service2 >> QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings ServiceB >> QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX)1 >> and QT- gets you updates as they are released.c > K > And we can get these through DSPP?  I think you indicated in an earlier  n > post6 > that it was no longer available through Businesslink  5 Nothing is available through BusinessLink at present.f  @ At least the services are not available through DSPP at present.  $ I don't know about the initial kits.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:33:15 +0000 (UTC)u7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)t$ Subject: VMS portions of ECWC "chat"/ Message-ID: <csjkpb$ors$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>   7 As promised...VMS (or Alphaserver related to VMS) only.   ; Moderator:  The chat has ended. Thanks for your questions! y  dM Q: Any plans to get SAP back on VMS after, like so many large ISVs, they wereaN told by Digital's Bob Palmer in the 1990s to move off VMS because it was being widthdrawn in favour of NT ?  H Rhonda Rubinstein (A): SAP supports HP Integrity across HP-UX, Linux andI Windows. Customers are able to run SAP applications on Integrity on thesee2 operating systems leveraging OVMS on the backend.   n= Q: Is their a program for tru64 users to migrate to OpenVMS?  H Mark Hudson (A): Our AlphaRetain Trust program provides customers with aN complete offering of capabilities, services, and financing to assist customersJ in their evolution...The program has been very well received by customers, analysts, and others.... n   I Q: How can I believe that Oracle will be certified on Itanium in a timely J fashion, when 10g of Oracle still hasn't been certified on OpenVMS Alpha? N Don Jenkins (A): I don't have specific information on Oracle 10G or Alpha VMS,C we can certainly follow-up on that one for you. Send me an email ateL donald.jenkins@hp.com. Regarding Integrity OpenVMS, because Integrity is ourN go-forward platform and Oracle 10G is the latest Oracle database release, bothK we and Oracle expect the majority of our future business for Oracle 10G anduK beyond would be on the Integrity Platform as opposed to the Alpha platform.tN Often times we work with our ISVs to port the latest version of an application! on our most up to date platform. d  oM Q: An Intel executive recently said he didn't see much use for Itanium in theyJ low-end. Please respond to this. For an OLTP (SAP) on Alpha customer, thisL makes it sould like we should only move to Itanium if we are large enough to> warrant a Superdome. Otherwise, just go to Linux on ProLiant. K Don Jenkins (A): We have worked w/Intel to clarify Mr. Otellini's comments.hO Itanium is intended as a broad RISC replacement, mainframe replacement and higheK performance technical computing product from Intel. Intel is addressing allhN markets from large systems to the smallest RISC systems (1 and 2P). In fact weI have an aggressive program to drive down costs for Integrity Servers. The L RX1620 server annuonced in November 04 starts at under $5K. We have deployedL 180 SAP sites on Integrity during the last 6 months, demonstrating excellentL growth in the SAP business. Many of these customers are deploying on 2 - way8 and 4-way servers. So I think it's a very broad market.   cH Q: I am very interested to understand the performance of OpenVMS and itsL applications on the Itanium chip versus the Alpha Chip. Are there benchmarks* currently available that compare the two? M Brian Cox (A): Though industry standard benchmarks have not been published onoH OpenVMS 8.2 running on Integrity servers, in-house tests at HP comparingG OpenVMS on Integrity vs. AlphaServer systems show a significant jump inhL performance on Integrity. This has also been the experience of end customers; who used the beta version of OpenVMS on Integrity servers. r  n( Moderator:  The chat ends in 5 minutes.   aN Q: It seems that HP is quite satified with the installed base of OpenVMS. But,K are you looking for *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are your arguments to0A convince a new customer to stay off from Windows and Linux/Unix? aM Ann Livermore (A): What we find today is that it is difficult to convince newbG customers to adopt an operating environment that they do not view as ansM industry standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of new customersMM to OpenVMS. Our greatest sales success comes from those customers who alreadyhI have OpenVMS and choose to expand into new application areas. If you haveo0 suggestions for us, we would love to hear them!   2K Q: Can you share any reactions and insights from HP customers who have beenv/ testing the new OpenVMS and Integrity systems? hI Mark Hudson (A): The response has been very positive, as Gerd Koebschall,vJ Director Head of Department VMS and XETRA/EUREX Operations, Deutsche BorseO Systems AG, recently stated, "We just ported the complete software of the EurexoO Exchange, which currently consist of 5 million lines of source code, to OpenVMSzN on Integrity servers. In the test environment, this migration has already been a success." L  Q: You say HP unix is a great alternative for IBM and Sun customers ... whyN not OpenVMS? Don Jenkins said "OpenVMS is also a great solution - provided ourN customers are open to using an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure thatG the applications (including infrastructure apps) are available that ourpK customers require." Why not actively sell Alpha-based solutions TODAY wheretN apps ARE available, and then transition new customers to Integrity if, as, andH when IA-64 application parity is reached? Not doing so loses you sales. I Don Jenkins (A): Most customers would like to avoid starting on Alpha andnL converting to Integrity. We have had this discussion w/many customers and inM some cases customers have chose to start w/Alpha and later move to Integrity.MO This is typically the exceptiona and not the rule as most customers would electt; to wait until the applications are available on Integrity. l   P Q: How HP is encouraging Alpha OVMS Oracle RDB users to switch to Itanium OVMS? O Don Jenkins (A): Our first job is to make sure that Oracle DB and/or Oracle rDB M are available for openVMS on Integrity and fully certified. Next we will work L with our customers through the Alpha Retain Trust program to provide roadmapI consulting, business practices and services to assist in transitioning tob Integrity. n  :N Q: We are an small alphaserver/alphastation customer and have heard from intelN that itanium will be for large sites only ... what about us customers who need small workgroup servers? gJ Don Jenkins (A): Great question, integrity servers will serve a wide priceN range, includign small servers in the under $10K category, in fact the RX 1620; starts at under $5K an excellent value for small business. r  ) Moderator:  The chat ends in 15 minutes. -  -O Q: If a company with a "Tired mainframe" calls HP today and says that they want"G to replace it with an Integrity server would the sales person send themi8 information about OpenVMS, HP-UX, Windows or all three? O Ann Livermore (A): The sales person would send them information on the solutionuK that best meets their needs. Today we have customers who are migrating fromrN mainframes to HP environments. Sometimes NonStop...sometimes Unix....sometimesO OpenVMS...and sometimes Windows or Linux. The great thing for customers is thatoL we will recommend and deploy the best answer for them, not just the thing we happen to sell.   pN Q: Ann: Can we now expect to see OpenVMS gain more visibility to new customers* now that it has been ported to Integrity? L Ann Livermore (A): We certainly hope so! It's a great operating environment,O and clearly today's Integrity announcement gives the solution a strong future. c  eL Q: When will the higher-ups at HP realize the value of VMS as being not justO another version of a toy operating system, or a billybox OS, and really tout itVN as unique, solid, reliable, mission-critical, etc? Or are you all so caught up$ in towing the Microsoft party line? M Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operating environmentsHN in the industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMS available on IntegrityK speaks to the fact that HP executives understand its value and want it as a1  powerful part of our portfolio.   .K Q: What special porting tools will you make available to move from Alpha totL Itanium. WHen the port of VAX to Alpha was announced, there was not a directM way to move Oracle based applications with embedded SQL to the Alpha. Instead/O the solution was a re-compile and re-link in the new environment. WIll a betterr7 porting tool be available to move Oracle applications? nL Don Jenkins (A): Moving from Alpha to Integrity will require a re-hosting ofN the data base. Oracle is working on improved export/import tools in the OracleK 10g timeframe that will make this transition faster and easier (including anM checkpoint/restart if you need to stop in mid transition for any reason). I'm M not sure about the need to recompile embedded SQL code. Your sales rep should & be able to help you with the details.   ,M Q: Ann, Being an HP SMB partner, I like your answer to the question regardingaN your Consulting Division. What plans does HP have to connect customers in needL with its partners that can deliver these services ? The question is somewhatO OpenVMS specific. We are told that there is lot's of support/migration work outtM there. More with the Integrity now in play. How can experienced partners help3F H.P. in keeping OpenVMS at the best-in-breed level is now exists at ? K Ann Livermore (A): The delivery of great services by HP and our partners isiM what makes OpenVMS customers so loyal. Services around OpenVMS can be a greatdK business opportunity for you. Your local HP sales or marketing contacts cani' help get you any information you need. A  aO Q: You say HP unix is a great alternative for IBM and Sun customers ... why nott	 OpenVMS? nN Don Jenkins (A): OpenVMS is also a great solution - provided our customers areD open to using an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that theM applications (including infrastructure apps) are available that our customersu	 require. t  nO Q: What layered products or products from your ISVs are being made available on O OpenVMS 8.2 on the Integrity platform along with your announcement? If not whenuN is the earliest that we would see other products being available on OpenVMS in the Itanium family? L Don Jenkins (A): We have commitments from our ISVs for over 700 applicationsF for OpenVMS on Integrity. We expect to have 250 or more by this springO (March/April) and over 500 by the end of 2005. ISV support for OpenVMS has beene very positive. a  sM Q: As a highend OpenVMS customer, we need Oracle to support mixed clusters ofeL HP AlphaServers and HP Integrity. Can you help us convince Oracle to support this? K Don Jenkins (A): We are working with Oracle on full support of both rDB andeK Oracle DB on OpenVMS for Integrity. Mixed clusters is on the table. I don'tn6 have specific info at this time on potential support.   nN Q: Carly said one in three servers shipped is an HP server. Can you "slice andJ dice" this further? What percentage are shipped to large enterprises? What' percentage are Linux vs. Unix? Thanks. nK Mark Hudson (A): Thanks for the question...It encompasses all our differentnH types of servers that we offer our customers including Proliant servers,N Integrity servers, AlphaServer, HP9000, and NonStop...About half of servers goL into the enterprise space...Concerning the percentage for Linux and Unix, itM depends if you look at it from a shipment or revenue perspective, bottom line I we have nice distribution across Linux, Window, and Unix depending on thec  customer application needs.....   tG Q: What reassurances can you offer IT executives that HP-UX and VMS are<K platforms on which they can bet the future of their businesses, in terms of 9 support from HP and from the larger developer community? oK Ann Livermore (A): Let me start with OpenVMS. With the announcement we havegN just made with OpenVMS and Integrity, there is no better investment protectionK that customers could possibly have for their Alpha server investments. WithxK HP-UX, the availability of our current RISC offerings and now our IntegrityAM offerings are very powerful for customers. There are many customers today wholF are paying too much for their IBM mainframe environments and their SunM environments. HP-UX on Itanium is a great answer for them. The combination ofmL the performance improvements, the high availability, the virtualization, andG the thousands of ISV applications make HP-UX a very powerful solution. r  lK Q: What are the three main changes and the three main advantages of the newe Itanium 2 processor ? M Brian Cox (A): The three main changes are faster frequency, larger cache sizesK and lower costs for the new Itanium 2 processor line-up. The advantages areaJ faster application performance, even more attractive cost of ownership andI growing OS support (with the addition of OpenVMS)/many new applications. t   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:04:09 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)h( Subject: Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat"3 Message-ID: <HCYebGLJkOvH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <csjkpb$ors$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:r9 > As promised...VMS (or Alphaserver related to VMS) only.    Thanks.   E So what portion of the total content was that VMS-related content you  extracted ?o   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:07:29 +0000 (UTC)b7 From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton)c( Subject: Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat"/ Message-ID: <csjmph$pep$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>s  c In article <HCYebGLJkOvH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:nj !In article <csjkpb$ors$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:: !> As promised...VMS (or Alphaserver related to VMS) only. !h !Thanks. !lF !So what portion of the total content was that VMS-related content you !extracted ?  K Approximately 3/11ths (started out with 11 pages of a M$ Word Doc, ended upy with three pages	:-))h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:50:28 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>i( Subject: VMS related questions from chat, Message-ID: <41ED5A6B.D4A5C247@teksavvy.com>  H I took what I had in the chat window (not sure if 100% complete). I knowG not all questions were fake since one question of mine did make it. Butl many questions didn't make it.     Q: Any plans to get SAP back onx VMS after, like so many large-! ISVs, they were told by Digital's5 Bob Palmer in the 1990s to movem off VMS because it was being widthdrawn in favour of NT ? a Rhonda Rubinstein (A): SAP supports HP Integrity across HP-UX, Linux and Windows.. Customers are able to run SAP0" applications on Integrity on these operating systems leveraging OVMS on the backend. e       Q: Is their a program for tru64o users to migrate to OpenVMS? t Mark Hudson (A): Our AlphaRetain Trust programu provides customers with a " complete offering of capabilities,! services, and financing to assists" customers in their evolution...The program has been very well  received by customers, analysts, and others.... y    Q: How can I believe that Oracle! will be certified on Itanium in ab timely fashion, when 10g ofe" Oracle still hasn't been certified on OpenVMS Alpha?  Don Jenkins (A): I don't havei specific information on Oracle 10G or Alpha VMS, we can certainly follow-up on that onee for you. Send me an email at  donald.jenkins@hp.com. Regarding Integrity OpenVMS, because Integrity is our go-forwarda platform and Oracle 10G is the latest Oracle database release,m both we and Oracle expect they majority of our future business  for Oracle 10G and beyond would  be on the Integrity Platform asd opposed to the Alpha platform. Often times we work with our" ISVs to port the latest version of  an application on our most up to date platform. q        Q: will the HP Integrity Virtual! Machines also provide support forl
 Windows ?  Nick van der Zweep (A): HP Integrity Virtual Machines havee! been designed to support multiples operating systems includingt HP-UX, Linux, Windows andh OpenVMS. We are evaluating the" market for each of these Integrity operating systems on a case by case basis.            Q: I am very interested to understand the performance of, OpenVMS and its applications on ! the Itanium chip versus the Alphai Chip. Are there benchmarks  currently available that compare	 the two? n Brian Cox (A): Thoughu industry standard benchmarks have not been published on  OpenVMS 8.2 running on Integrity servers, in-house tests at HPo comparing OpenVMS on Integrity vs. AlphaServer systems show a significant jump in performancem  on Integrity. This has also been the experience of end customersd who used the beta version of OpenVMS on Integrity servers.        Q: It seems that HP is quite# satified with the installed base ofm! OpenVMS. But, are you looking forp *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are your arguments to convince a new customer to stayi off from Windows and Linux/Unix?  Ann Livermore (A): What we% find today is that it is difficult toh convince new customers to adoptt an operating environment thatf they do not view as an industryr  standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of newt customers to OpenVMS. OurI greatest sales success comes from those customers who already have OpenVMS and choose  to expand into new application" areas. If you have suggestions for  us, we would love to hear them!        Q: Can you share any reactions and insights from HP customers who have been testing the newt OpenVMS and Integrity systems? e Mark Hudson (A): The  response has been very positive,! as Gerd Koebschall, Director Head- of Department VMS and- XETRA/EUREX Operations,  Deutsche Borse Systems AG,  recently stated, "We just ported the complete software of the Eurex Exchange, which currently0 consist of 5 million lines ofI source code, to OpenVMS on Integrity servers. In the test environment, this migration hase already been a success." t       Q: You say HP unix is a greatb alternative for IBM and Sunw customers ... why not OpenVMS? Don Jenkins said "OpenVMS is  also a great solution - provided our customers are open to using, an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that thee applications (including " infrastructure apps) are available  that our customers require." Why not actively sell Alpha-basedt solutions TODAY where apps ARE" available, and then transition new" customers to Integrity if, as, and  when IA-64 application parity is reached? Not doing so loses youa sales. I Don Jenkins (A): MostD customers would like to avoidN  starting on Alpha and converting to Integrity. We have had this discussion w/many customers   and in some cases customers have  chose to start w/Alpha and later move to Integrity. This is  typically the exceptiona and not  the rule as most customers would$ elect to wait until the applications are available on Integrity.    Q: How HP is encouraging Alpha OVMS Oracle RDB users to switchH to Itanium OVMS? i Don Jenkins (A): Our first job is to make sure that Oracle DB and/or Oracle rDB are availableu for openVMS on Integrity and" fully certified. Next we will work with our customers through the Alpha Retain Trust program toe provide roadmap consulting,x business practices and services  to assist in transitioning top Integrity. )       Q: We are an small alphaserver/alphastation customer and have heard from$ intel that itanium will be for large sites only ... what about us customers who need small workgroup servers? h Don Jenkins (A): Great  question, integrity servers will serve a wide price range,e includign small servers in the  under $10K category, in fact the RX 1620 starts at under $5K an excellent value for small 
 business.        Q: If a company with a "Tiredg mainframe" calls HP today and ! says that they want to replace itu with an Integrity server would the sales person send them information about OpenVMS, HP-UX, Windows or all three?   Ann Livermore (A): The sales person would send them  information on the solution that  best meets their needs. Today we have customers who are migrating from mainframes to HPs environments. Sometimesa NonStop...sometimes  Unix....sometimes OpenVMS...andu sometimes Windows or Linux. Thej! great thing for customers is thatg  we will recommend and deploy the best answer for them, not just the thing we happen to sell. h       Q: Ann: Can we now expect to  see OpenVMS gain more visibility  to new customers now that it has been ported to Integrity?  Ann Livermore (A): Wea certainly hope so! It's a great? operating environment, and clearly today's Integritya! announcement gives the solution ac strong future. l          ! Q: When will the higher-ups at HP ! realize the value of VMS as being ! not just another version of a toyw operating system, or a billybox ! OS, and really tout it as unique,t" solid, reliable, mission-critical,# etc? Or are you all so caught up ini! towing the Microsoft party line? a Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerfulo operating environments in the   industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMS available on! Integrity speaks to the fact thatB HP executives understand its value and want it as a powerfula part of our portfolio. (           Q: What kind of performance   jump will I see when moving from Itanium 2 6M to Itanium 2 9M processors?  Brian Cox (A): On the systems_ we just announced we see up to 25% performance gains (varieso
 by workload) 2      " Q: What special porting tools will you make available to move from " Alpha to Itanium. WHen the port of VAX to Alpha was announced,  there was not a direct way tob move Oracle based applications with embedded SQL to the Alpha.E Instead the solution was a! re-compile and re-link in the newn" environment. WIll a better porting  tool be available to move Oracle applications?  Don Jenkins (A): Moving from! Alpha to Integrity will require a  re-hosting of the data base. Oracle is working on improved_! export/import tools in the Oracleh! 10g timeframe that will make thisK transition faster and easier" (including a checkpoint/restart if" you need to stop in mid transition for any reason). I'm not sure  about the need to recompile; embedded SQL code. Your salesa rep should be able to help you with the details.  .    Q: Ann, Being an HP SMBe" partner, I like your answer to the question regarding yourF Consulting Division. What plans  does HP have to connectm customers in need with its partners that can deliver these, services ? The question is somewhat OpenVMS specific. Wee are told that there is lot's of" support/migration work out there. More with the Integrity  now in play. How can experienced partners help H.P. in keeping  OpenVMS at the best-in-breed level is now exists at ? k Ann Livermore (A): The  delivery of great services by HP and our partners is what makes OpenVMS customers so loyal.  Services around OpenVMS can be  a great business opportunity for you. Your local HP sales or  marketing contacts can help geto you any information you need.    Q: You say HP unix is a greatt alternative for IBM and Suny customers ... why not OpenVMS? w Don Jenkins (A): OpenVMS is   also a great solution - provided our customers are open to usingr an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that the  applications (including_" infrastructure apps) are available that our customers require.         Q: What programs are in place to help Tru64 users to migrate to! HP-UX on Integrity, given that it  is both a hardware and software  transition.  Don Jenkins (A): We have a full program for our Tru64 customers under the name "Alpha> RetainTrust". That program covers both free workshops tou help you plan your roadmap and  transitions, to on-site services  and unique business practices to! help ease the financial impact of  the transition. There is information of "Alpha> RetainTrust" on the HP website,e in the BCS section.r0 http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/index.html         Q: What layered products org products from your ISVs arel being made available on OpenVMSt 8.2 on the Integrity platforms  along with your announcement? If  not when is the earliest that we would see other products being available on OpenVMS in thee Itanium family?  Don Jenkins (A): We have commitments from our ISVs fore over 700 applications for  OpenVMS on Integrity. We expect  to have 250 or more by thist spring (March/April) and over# 500 by the end of 2005. ISV  support for OpenVMS has been very positive. f   Q: As a highend OpenVMS  customer, we need Oracle toe support mixed clusters of HP AlphaServers and HP Integrity. Can you help us convince Oracled to support this? h Don Jenkins (A): We are, working with Oracle on fullL! support of both rDB and Oracle DBp on OpenVMS for Integrity. Mixedn! clusters is on the table. I don't," have specific info at this time on potential support. e           Q: What reassurances can you offer IT executives that HP-UX and VMS are platforms on which  they can bet the future of their businesses, in terms of support  from HP and from the largerd developer community? e Ann Livermore (A): Let meo start with OpenVMS. With the announcement we have just made with OpenVMS and Integrity,> there is no better investmentd protection that customers could  possibly have for their AlphaS server investments. With HP-UX,h the availability of our currentt RISC offerings and now our Integrity offerings are very powerful for customers. There0 are many customers today who! are paying too much for their IBM  mainframe environments and  their Sun environments. HP-UX on Itanium is a great answer foro them. The combination of the performance improvements, thet high availability, the! virtualization, and the thousands   of ISV applications make HP-UX a very powerful solution.   h   Q: What are the three main changes and the three main advantages of the new Itanium 2  processor ?    Brian Cox (A): The three main  changes are faster frequency, ! larger cache size and lower costs  for the new Itanium 2 processor  line-up. The advantages arer faster application performance,E even more attractive cost of ownership and growing OS support (with the addition of  OpenVMS)/many news
 applications.d   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:02:08 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris , Message-ID: <3554pgF4j0dtaU1@individual.net>  , In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>,* 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > / >> In article <41EC88AA.6040702@tsoft-inc.com>,d- >> 	Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:> >  >  cL >>>Clustering, as it was originally defined, shared everything, not fallover >>>e >> iJ >> Now you have two.  But this one only affects a small handfull of users. >  > R > Are you saying that because VMS has a small market share?  If not, then justify M > your claim.  It's this capability that allows VMS to scale to the job, and tJ > adjust as job requirements change, all transparent to the applications.   B No, I merely meant that the number of people who actually need theC clustering provided by VMS is very samll. Not even all VMS machineso> are in clusters.  The biggest use I can think of for VMS style@ clustering is probably the least common use.  Disaster survival.  M > Possibly your "small handful" actually do much more work than a very large e > number of Unix users?   A I doubt that.  But there is no way for either of us to prove justs? how much work either side is actually doing. (Is playing NeHackG still considered work?  :-)"   >  > 	 >>>DECnett >>>n >> dJ >> What is the advantage of DECnet over other networking protocols?  ThereH >> are lots of disadvantages.  Oh yeah, that has been available for unixF >> since the Ultrix days and while I have even used it, unless you areJ >> also running VMS (or PDP-11's :-) it really hasn't much use in the unix	 >> world.k >  > Q > Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other TO > operating systems.  Got me on that one.  But, DECnet can be much more secure n7 > than TCP/IP.  That might be of use to the Unix world.d  A Yeah, well if I disconnect the TCPIP machine from the rest of the 4 world (like DECnet is by default) it's secure too.     >  > F >>>Since I don't know Unix, some of the following may not be VMS only: >>>t >>>Global sections >>>s >> iJ >> If this is Systemwide Logicals, unix can do that, but not as gracefully
 >> as VMS. >  >  > Shared sections of memory.  < Unix has had shared memory almost as long as I can remember.   >  > & >>>Access to system calls outside of C >>>g >> wG >> ??  Outside in what way?  Any language can call any library.  If youlG >> mean from a shell, I've never seen it done and because of the nature C >> of the unix system calls I am not sure it would even make sense.  >  > Q > Sometime in the past there was a thread on something similar to this.  I asked  O > how to perform some task, and the replies indicated that the only access was sF > through the use of a C library routine.  Can't remember the details.  E Unless the compiler writer went to the trouble of making his languageeC incompatable (ala RM Cobol) I can't see any reason why you coudln'th* call any system library from any compiler.   >  >  >>>Logicalst >>>S >>  2 >> Got them.  Just don't call them the same thing. >> . >> o
 >>>Symbols >>>G >>  E >> Aren't they really the same as Logicals?  (I really don't know the  >> difference.)t >  >  > No, not the same thing..  D OK, I'll take your word for it.  but without knowing the difference, I can't equate it to unix. >  >  >>>Mailboxes >>>o >> eG >> Not sure of the real nature of VMS "Mailboxes".  I get my email in a-E >> "mailbox", but VMS seems to have a different meaning. I think thisFH >> is likely the same pty's or some combination of other methods of IPC. >  > R > A VMS mailbox is a inter process communication device.  It can be sync or async.  2 Hmmmm....  Unix has pty's, sockets, fifo's, pipes.  H >> PS. Hope it's warmer in your corner of the state than it is in mine!! >>   > Down to 3 last night.  :-(  < Even beat you there.  We went below zero in most areas.  :-)   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   :   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:17:08 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarist, Message-ID: <3555lkF4j0dtaU2@individual.net>  3 In article <RD1hHw6EgC+a@eisner.encompasserve.org>,B> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:e > In article <S8+1lk0Igwib@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:MZ >> In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> yL >>> If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use something? >>> else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it?  >> nF >> There are very few real-world applications best modeled as a stream >> of bytes. > G >    No, but you can create a lot of student homework applications withoF >    just a stream of bytes.  Or singly-linked lists.  Or other little* >    things you should avoid in real life. > E >    With all the emphasis on OOP in the last decade, you might thinkg9 >    somebody would realize data needs to be organized.  e  , http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm9 http://www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/ObjectsHaveFailed.pdf y   Or not......  I >                                                        Oh, maybe that's4. >    why Oracle is pulling down so much dough. > F >    I know there are applications that need the full power of a DBMS.I >    But I also know large numbers of Oracle data bases serving the needsi >    met by a $2K ISAM package.S  5 And unix has both ISAM and DBMS available if needed.     bill  r   -- >J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:08:48 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <8D4T3oQz5TbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  V In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  Q > Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other jO > operating systems.  Got me on that one.  But, DECnet can be much more secure V > than TCP/IP.  $ DECnet _is_ more secure than TCP/IP.  I With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticatednG inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least onv' VMS).  Authentication is the _default_.n   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:21:55 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisi, Message-ID: <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>  3 In article <arua5JjLZYaq@eisner.encompasserve.org>,g> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Y > In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:s >>  K >> If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use somethinge> >> else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it? > J >    If a stream of bytes can do the job, VMS will provide you a stream of >    bytes.  > H >    Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comesH >    to data.  If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX >    is out of luck.  F No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just notG the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying1E an additional commercial package.  What is the difference between VMSeF and pretty much any unix, pricewise?  Basicly, VMS provides it, wetherG you need it or not and makes you pay for it, wether you need it or not.e   bill  o   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:31:45 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solariso, Message-ID: <3556h1F4j0dtaU4@individual.net>  3 In article <FXL4huwjzfL0@eisner.encompasserve.org>,b> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:T > In article <3IudnYo-79LDqnHcRVn-3g@igs.net>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >> sI >> They get taught about 1.5 days of instruction in university about ISAMeL >> theory, do 2 coding exercise assignments worth 6% of their term mark, andD >> that is....back to stream of bytes for the rest of their careers. > I >    I never hire anybody who can't learn on the job.  And VMS is so easy  >    to learn.  H Matter of opinion.  Experience here has been quite different.  But then,G one has to wonder how much of that is "mother duck syndrome".  I knew ahF student from Marist in Poughkeepsie, NY who interned with my office atD West Point a number of years ago.  Couldn't handle Primos, Exec-8 orE Unix.  Couldn't understand how anyone could get anything done withouto/ VM/CMS and APL. (No smiley, I am not joking!!!)g   bill  s   -- uJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:43:07 -0500e  From: nobody <nobody@nobody.org> Subject: Re: vms versus solaris * Message-ID: <41ED66BE.F1CE734B@nobody.org>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:K > With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticated:I > inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least ona) > VMS).  Authentication is the _default_.n  G Not on VMS. You need certain privileges to listen on a port < 1024. (ors) have your app defined in TCPIP Services).t  F However, that still doesn't negate the fact that DECNET is more secure than TCPIP.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:54:11 -0500v# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e Subject: Re: vms versus solarisH, Message-ID: <FKOdnYPXLLz-9HDcRVn-jQ@igs.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:5 > In article <FXL4huwjzfL0@eisner.encompasserve.org>,i? > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:R< >> In article <3IudnYo-79LDqnHcRVn-3g@igs.net>, "John Smith" >> <a@nonymous.com> writes:t >>>tE >>> They get taught about 1.5 days of instruction in university aboutsC >>> ISAM theory, do 2 coding exercise assignments worth 6% of theiroE >>> term mark, and that is....back to stream of bytes for the rest ofi >>> their careers. >>E >>    I never hire anybody who can't learn on the job.  And VMS is soV >>    easy to learn. >oD > Matter of opinion.  Experience here has been quite different.  ButE > then, one has to wonder how much of that is "mother duck syndrome".aG > I knew a student from Marist in Poughkeepsie, NY who interned with mylF > office at West Point a number of years ago.  Couldn't handle Primos,D > Exec-8 or Unix.  Couldn't understand how anyone could get anything> > done without VM/CMS and APL. (No smiley, I am not joking!!!)    ' I'll agree with the bit about APL.  :-)    ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 20:11:23 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisl, Message-ID: <3558rbF4jdo8uU1@individual.net>  , In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>,0 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:9 >> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter.   > E > Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS.a > J > Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMSP > because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM.  E And DIFF.  How about ping?  FTP? VMS is already infected.  It will beo( assimilated.  Resistance is futile.  :-)   > I > and a "root account" is understood across platforms  much more than thetI > "system account"  would be. So there are a lot of Unix terminology thath+ > has essentially become industry standard n  = I wonder why that is?  Especially considering that unix is so + esoteric it wasn't even written for humans.1  B >                                           which allows people of1 > different OS religion to understand each other.d > E > But the more obscure Unix acronyms (that is what Unix commands are,o4 > after all) aren't all understood across platforms.  D Name some.  If you actually have any they are very likely limited toA one vendor who was trying to make his version of unix proprietaryrD (contrary to the unix philosophy) in order to lock customers in onceB they got used to it or wrote a bunch of local scripts.  The commonD commands that must unix people core are (and have been) well definedA for quite some time. (Another body that tried to redefine unix inm? it's own image and likeness was GNU.  It was done for politicale? reasons because of some grudge Stallman had with real Unix and w- luckily, it has not been totally successful.)n   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:24:23 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <3CYU$J8jvMKz@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <3554pgF4j0dtaU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:o  D > No, I merely meant that the number of people who actually need theE > clustering provided by VMS is very samll. Not even all VMS machinesn@ > are in clusters.  The biggest use I can think of for VMS styleB > clustering is probably the least common use.  Disaster survival.  @ Lots of people do not have _disaster_ tolerant clusters but have# "minor incident tolerant" clusters.m  = I have a common disk for source which is compiled on separatet machines for VAX and Alpha.o   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:26:05 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o Subject: Re: vms versus solarist3 Message-ID: <$j45Nf3zsBcb@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  W In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:   I >>    Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comesoI >>    to data.  If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIXn >>    is out of luck.e > H > No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just notI > the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buyingd# > an additional commercial package.p  G The cost is infinite, because as a software vendor I cannot choose whatdG other pieces my customer chooses to buy.  On VMS I can depend (heavily)e< on RMS and count on it being there on every customer system.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:30:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <VvbwIYojd7X5@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  M In article <41ED66BE.F1CE734B@nobody.org>, nobody <nobody@nobody.org> writes:S > Larry Kilgallen wrote:L >> With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticatedJ >> inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on* >> VMS).  Authentication is the _default_. > I > Not on VMS. You need certain privileges to listen on a port < 1024. (ors+ > have your app defined in TCPIP Services).I  C But no privilege to listen on a port with a higher number.  I coulduC conspire with others to all be listening on port 12345 and we couldaB set up some supposedly (by our individual managers) valid businessD application that totally bypassed the organization's security rules.  B DECnet requires privilege to receive _any_ unauthenticated inbound connection.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:51:02 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: vms versus solaris5, Message-ID: <41ED76B4.682F0652@teksavvy.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  B > Lots of people do not have _disaster_ tolerant clusters but have% > "minor incident tolerant" clusters.   F And you are forgetting clusters setup to support workstations. Decades< ahead of what Microsoft was able to do with its file server.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:12:19 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisi, Message-ID: <355cdiF4ik1fqU1@individual.net>  3 In article <WxIAUWrHAa60@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:^ > In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:.: >>> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter.  >> rF >> Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS. >> PK >> Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMScQ >> because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM.m > 4 >    Not in any shop where I'm the system manager.    $ No bias in your opinions about unix.  H >                                                  I've actually had oneI >    (1), count them : ONE programmer who set up cd, pwd, ... for his VMSt
 >    account.  > H >    All true VMS users know that sd is the symbol for some command file, >    that does nice things with set default.  B What happened to the idea of making the machine work for the usersD rather than making the users work for the machine?  By the way, justA like my comment on what I will install vs. what the VMS shop willW? install, this is a philosophical difference.  I leave it to theo7 public to decide which one is better for their users.  r   > J >> and a "root account" is understood across platforms  much more than theJ >> "system account"  would be. So there are a lot of Unix terminology thatB >> has essentially become industry standard which allows people of2 >> different OS religion to understand each other. > G >    My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account".  Some OS ' >    are even more prevalent than UNIX.m  	 Name one!s   >    e@ >    But we've gotten far away from the OP's request to know theD >    differences between Solaris and VMS.  We've done a lot of flameC >    baiting, but I still stand by my original answers even if Billp >    doens't like them.r > J >    Bill knows I think VMS is a superior OS, and I know VMS is a superior= >    OS, but he read a lot of what he knows about me into hisaJ >    interpretation of my original response.  I haven't seen anything thatF >    actually factually refutes any one of my points.  He just doesn't >    like to hear me say them.  > I don't argue that there is anything wrong with VMS.  The only? thing that rankles me is when people post drivel about unix andl@ claim it as gospel.  Personally, I don't think either of them isD "better" per se.  There are jobs where each one is the right answer.B It is only when things reach the point of saying there is only oneA true religion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HOS and back it up with the same old,cD tired myths regarding unix.  It only makes it worse that I have seenC the same methods used against other aspects of modern life. I guessvB it's just part of the modern way like the current malleability of  the english language.n  F I am sure (and I certainly hope) that other readers hear realize thereH is no animosity between me and Dave or Bob or anyone else here.  I don'tF know about them, but I enjoy the lively debates and I even learn stuffI from them. (I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the difference$F between Symbols and Logicals as I really thought they were pretty much1 the same except for the method of defining them.)r   bill   -- fJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:25:13 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris , Message-ID: <355d5pF4hkianU1@individual.net>  3 In article <nr5q6IzcTo8d@eisner.encompasserve.org>,o> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Y > In article <353do6F4heoajU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:t >>  + >> So, I'm not human?  Thanks a lot.... :-)h > G >    I didn't say you're not human, I said UNIX wasn't designed to dealnI >    with you.  You had a bigger learning curve than you would have if its	 >    was.o > I >    No English speaker walking up to there first computer thinks "I need $ >    to print a file, I'll try lpr."  F And a german speaker wouldn't think PRINT.  Most people approach theirG first computer like it came from Mars anyway.  I have been dealing withfD students who used both unix and VMS since before the Linux made unixG a household word.  Our students invariably learned unix faster.  Became0G more productive on unix.  And given both systems to use prefered to useeE unix over VMS.  I know many people don't like anecdotal evidence, butu@ I tend to believe what I see myself over what I get second hand.  @ I, personally have been a user of VMS almost as long as unix andD still am more productive using unix.  I am one of the few supporters@ of VMS for academic use here (if I can ever get the power put in@ I have some real killer VAXen to turn the students loose on) andA even have VMS at home.  I still prefer unix and can do a lot moreP a lot faster there.  h  B That's just the way it is.  But I will continue to use and support9 VMS anyway for the resons I stated in an earlier message.t   bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:28:34 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisa, Message-ID: <355dc2F4hkianU2@individual.net>  3 In article <AOmR7iQ+BFGy@eisner.encompasserve.org>,I0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <41EC8C43.2080309@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >> Tom Linden wrote: >>  K >>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:25:53 -0500, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>   
 >>> wrote: >>> G >>>> On a related note, I remember a discussion with my cousin (a "C"  e >>>> programmertN >>>> at a big insurance company in Canada) a few years back; during a HeinekenN >>>> induce debate I stated "C isn't a high level language!" and his reply wasL >>>> "It is when you include the libraries!". He was right; the "C" languageL >>>> doesn't have i/o but it does when you include "stdio.h". Over all you  
 >>>> can'tL >>>> knock "C" because it always seems to be the first thing ported to a newL >>>> platform. The point of all this drivel is that even the language that  	 >>>> UNIXs< >>>> is written in was developed with a minimalist approach. >>>  >>> O >>> There is more to a high-level language than that.  How about strong typing,sK >>> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name t >>> a  few.HJ >>> How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must  >>> do)  in C? >>>  >>  Q >> Simple.  You write or acquire some library routines.  No language/compiler is s1 >> perfect.  None of them provide for everything.n > > > Cobol, PL/1 and Ada all provide built-in decimal arithmetic.< > Calling a library to do that from another language is less! > natural an more prone to error.c    K Don't let the guys at NAG hear you say that.  I spent many years supportingtL users who used math routines from the NAG Library rather than the intrinsicsA in ForTran because they were better and in most cases faster too.I   bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 15:40:53 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i Subject: Re: vms versus solarisn3 Message-ID: <zDGF$Snaq4hE@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  W In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:o > H > No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just notI > the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buyinggG > an additional commercial package.  What is the difference between VMSHH > and pretty much any unix, pricewise?  Basicly, VMS provides it, wetherI > you need it or not and makes you pay for it, wether you need it or not.   @    In the real world, that's like selling soup without the bowl.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 15:42:17 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e Subject: Re: vms versus solarisl3 Message-ID: <Wc+MZiIwbhZg@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  W In article <3556h1F4j0dtaU4@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:s  # > Couldn't handle Primos, Exec-8 or G > Unix.  Couldn't understand how anyone could get anything done without 1 > VM/CMS and APL. (No smiley, I am not joking!!!),  G    Wouldn't last around here.  Those few are mild compared to what we'du    throw at him.   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:38:43 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solariss, Message-ID: <355hfjF4g6skfU1@individual.net>  3 In article <8D4T3oQz5TbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > R >> Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other P >> operating systems.  Got me on that one.  But, DECnet can be much more secure  >> than TCP/IP.e > & > DECnet _is_ more secure than TCP/IP. > K > With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticatednI > inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least ony) > VMS).  Authentication is the _default_.s  E If you are a serious business and you have to worry about your users  B seting up "a receptor to take unauthenticated inbound connections"E you have a problem that no network protocol can fix.  You, obviously, A don't have to worry about hackers on the INTERNET if your runningS DECnet. :-)t   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   m   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:43:57 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solariso, Message-ID: <355hpdF4g6skfU2@individual.net>  3 In article <$j45Nf3zsBcb@eisner.encompasserve.org>,n0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Y > In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > J >>>    Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comesJ >>>    to data.  If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX >>>    is out of luck. >>  I >> No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just not J >> the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying$ >> an additional commercial package. > I > The cost is infinite, because as a software vendor I cannot choose whatsI > other pieces my customer chooses to buy.  On VMS I can depend (heavily) > > on RMS and count on it being there on every customer system.  D You skipped my last part.  They also pay for it, wether they need it or not.n  D If you offer a commercial package that depends on another commercialF package you don't expect to find on the customers machine, you license- that package and provide it along with yours.e  G How many people run packages that require Oracle?  Banner, for example..   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   o   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:46:17 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarise, Message-ID: <355htpF4g6skfU3@individual.net>  3 In article <zDGF$Snaq4hE@eisner.encompasserve.org>,v> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:Y > In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  >> :I >> No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just nothJ >> the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buyingH >> an additional commercial package.  What is the difference between VMSI >> and pretty much any unix, pricewise?  Basicly, VMS provides it, wetheraJ >> you need it or not and makes you pay for it, wether you need it or not. > B >    In the real world, that's like selling soup without the bowl.  H Campbell's has been doing that since before I was born.  The world seemsF to accept the practice just fine.  How many people would be happy withG Campbell's if they had to buy a bowl with every can of soup they boughtm# just in case they didn't have one? c   bill  q   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:53:59 -0500n) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>n Subject: Re: vms versus solarisa: Message-ID: <ksgHd.41307$W33.855142@news20.bellglobal.com>  5 "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message a3 news:jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com...iD > One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports M > quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows pE > processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion  = > daughter processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc.a >H > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html >  >bM As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of UNIX bJ do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experience L came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff has H changed since then). It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup with B experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight.  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,V Ontario, Canada.9 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html h   ------------------------------   Date: 18 Jan 2005 23:09:27 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisi, Message-ID: <355j97F4g6skfU4@individual.net>  : In article <ksgHd.41307$W33.855142@news20.bellglobal.com>,, 	"Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > 7 > "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message n5 > news:jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com...hE >> One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports bN >> quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows F >> processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion > >> daughter processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. >>O > As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of UNIX  L > do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experience N > came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff has  > changed since then). t    You and most of the people here.  I >                     It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup with 0D > experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight.  C I've been trying to do that for years but the same tired myths justc@ keep popping back up.  (Kind of reminds me of "Whack a Mole" :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   v   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:15:51 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>l Subject: Re: vms versus solarist( Message-ID: <opsktmwpo1zgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 18 Jan 2005 21:28:34 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  5 > In article <AOmR7iQ+BFGy@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:= >> In article <41EC8C43.2080309@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble  S  >> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>> Tom Linden wrote:  >>>rJ >>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:25:53 -0500, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> >>>> wrote:y >>>>F >>>>> On a related note, I remember a discussion with my cousin (a "C" >>>>> programmerH >>>>> at a big insurance company in Canada) a few years back; during a   >>>>> HeinekenG >>>>> induce debate I stated "C isn't a high level language!" and his  " >>>>> reply wasCF >>>>> "It is when you include the libraries!". He was right; the "C"   >>>>> languageK >>>>> doesn't have i/o but it does when you include "stdio.h". Over all youx >>>>> can'teK >>>>> knock "C" because it always seems to be the first thing ported to a  M	 >>>>> new1K >>>>> platform. The point of all this drivel is that even the language thato
 >>>>> UNIX= >>>>> is written in was developed with a minimalist approach.p >>>> >>>>J >>>> There is more to a high-level language than that.  How about strong   >>>> typing,K >>>> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to namei >>>> a  few.J >>>> How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must >>>> do)  in C?k >>>> >>>o> >>> Simple.  You write or acquire some library routines.  No   >>> language/compiler is2 >>> perfect.  None of them provide for everything. >>? >> Cobol, PL/1 and Ada all provide built-in decimal arithmetic.x= >> Calling a library to do that from another language is less " >> natural an more prone to error. >f > D > Don't let the guys at NAG hear you say that.  I spent many years   > supportingE > users who used math routines from the NAG Library rather than the  r > intrinsicsC > in ForTran because they were better and in most cases faster too.   B I think you are talking about two different things.  Arithmetic isC ALWAYS done better as intinsics - builtin functions in the compilertF Scientific subroutines is another matter.  It is not common to include1 confluent hypergeometric functions as intrinsics.r >n > bill >o       -- iC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/w   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:04:40 -0500L) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>n Subject: Re: vms versus solaris.: Message-ID: <lCgHd.41337$W33.858874@news20.bellglobal.com>  ; "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message  - news:APqtG0CsE$6M@eisner.encompasserve.org...kJ > In article <Hv2Hd.23475$W33.714909@news20.bellglobal.com>, "Neil Rieck"   > <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> [...snip...]K >> 2. The open source movement (LINUX, Apache, ISC, OpenOffice, etc.) is my"F >> primary example and will probably be the only group of programmers 
 >> capable' >> of taking on Microsoft head to head.o >P6 > Open Source Software can be written in any language.  G Your statement is true. But I think you'd agree that the current "open s% source movement" is dominated by "C".r  8 p.s. I don't know why I forgot MySQL in my previous post  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,  Ontario, Canada.8 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:45:40 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t Subject: Re: vms versus solarisa3 Message-ID: <5ma6JBmy3AVC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <355dc2F4hkianU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 5 > In article <AOmR7iQ+BFGy@eisner.encompasserve.org>,v2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Y >> In article <41EC8C43.2080309@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:m >>> Tom Linden wrote:  >>> L >>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:25:53 -0500, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>   >>>> wrote:r >>>> aH >>>>> On a related note, I remember a discussion with my cousin (a "C"   >>>>> programmerO >>>>> at a big insurance company in Canada) a few years back; during a Heineken O >>>>> induce debate I stated "C isn't a high level language!" and his reply was M >>>>> "It is when you include the libraries!". He was right; the "C" language M >>>>> doesn't have i/o but it does when you include "stdio.h". Over all you  t >>>>> can't M >>>>> knock "C" because it always seems to be the first thing ported to a newgM >>>>> platform. The point of all this drivel is that even the language that  l
 >>>>> UNIX= >>>>> is written in was developed with a minimalist approach.o >>>> d >>>>  P >>>> There is more to a high-level language than that.  How about strong typing,L >>>> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name  >>>> a  few.K >>>> How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must   >>>> do)  in C?  >>>> l >>> R >>> Simple.  You write or acquire some library routines.  No language/compiler is 2 >>> perfect.  None of them provide for everything. >> c? >> Cobol, PL/1 and Ada all provide built-in decimal arithmetic. = >> Calling a library to do that from another language is lessi" >> natural an more prone to error. >  > M > Don't let the guys at NAG hear you say that.  I spent many years supportingnN > users who used math routines from the NAG Library rather than the intrinsicsC > in ForTran because they were better and in most cases faster too.   @ Certainly implementation quality varies, but there is nothing toC naturally associate a higher quality implementation with a clunkiert
 interface.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:59:39 -0800h# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>m Subject: Re: vms versus solariso( Message-ID: <opsktoxpk4zgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:53:59 -0500, Neil Rieck <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>  s wrote:   > 6 > "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message5 > news:jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com....D >> One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supportsH >> quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This  	 >> allows:E >> processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillionu> >> daughter processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. >>
 >> Neil Rieckq  >> Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, >> Ontario, Canada.c; >> http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.htmle >> >>K > As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of  e > UNIXK > do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experiencetK > came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff    > hasjI > changed since then). It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup withnD > experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight.      E ulimit(1)                                                            .	 ulimit(1)s   NAME  ,    ulimit - Sets or reports a resource limit   SYNOPSIS  !    ulimit [-HSacdfmnstvw] [limit]   	 STANDARDSl  E    Interfaces documented on this reference page conform to industry  c	 standardsM    as follows:      ulimit:  XCU5.0, XBD5.0  H    Refer to the standards(5) reference page for more information about   indus-%    try standards and associated tags.    OPTIONSn  G    -H  [Tru64 UNIX]   The limits specified for the resources are hard  a limits. 7        A hard limit cannot be increased once it is set.y  G    -S  [Tru64 UNIX]   The limits specified for the resources are soft  e limits. G        A soft limit can be increased up to the value of the hard limit.   J    -a  [Tru64 UNIX]   Lists all of the current resource limits.  The limit1        operand is not permitted with this option.<      -c limitsH        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of 512-byte        blocks for core dumps.I      -d limitVK        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes  t fort        the data area.n      -f limitaJ        The limit operand specifies the number of 512-byte blocks for filesB        written by child processes (files of any size can be read).      -m limit K        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes    for #        the size of physical memory.e      -n limit F        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of file   descrip-        tors.      -s limitdK        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes  t form        the stack area.      -t limitoL        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of seconds to   be        used by each process.      -v limitnK        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes    foreJ        virtual memory.  This option is supported only if RLIMIT_VMEM has   been>        defined in /usr/include/sys/resource.h at compile-time.      -w limit K        [Tru64 UNIX]   The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes    for1L        the swap area.  This option is supported only if RLIMIT_SWAP has been>        defined in /usr/include/sys/resource.h at compile-time.   OPERANDS      limitL        If no options are specified, this is the number of 512 byte blocks toL        use as the new limit to file size. Otherwise, it is the limit applied.        to the resource indicatd by the option.  E        [Tru64 UNIX]   This operand is not allowed with the -a option.e  F        If this operand is omitted, the current limit for the indicated        resource is reported.   DESCRIPTION-  L    This command sets, or reports, the limit on the size of system resources,    as indicated by the option.  L    [Tru64 UNIX]   If neither the -H option nor the -S option is specified,   theGH    limit applies to both hard and soft limits.  If only the -a option is'    specified, soft limits are reported.   J    If there is no limit on a resource, the limit is reported as unlimited.     >  > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,t > Ontario, Canada.: > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html >o >g       -- sC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/t   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:43:49 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)M Subject: Re: vms versus solariso3 Message-ID: <0q6pjqA4eQDb@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  W In article <355cdiF4ik1fqU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 5 > In article <WxIAUWrHAa60@eisner.encompasserve.org>,t@ > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:_ >> In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:e >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:; >>>> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter. u >>> G >>> Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS.T >>> L >>> Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMSR >>> because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM. >> J5 >>    Not in any shop where I'm the system manager.  G > & > No bias in your opinions about unix.  J Not in _my_ shop, due to my biases about _VMS_.  SYS$SYLOGIN is undefined.H >>    My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account".  Some OS( >>    are even more prevalent than UNIX. >  > Name one!e   1. Windows.a  	 2. Linux.:   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:46:41 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <j1gUrrJEXRfV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <355hfjF4g6skfU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:t5 > In article <8D4T3oQz5TbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Y >> In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >>  S >>> Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other  Q >>> operating systems.  Got me on that one.  But, DECnet can be much more secure a >>> than TCP/IP. >> r' >> DECnet _is_ more secure than TCP/IP.a >> aL >> With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticatedJ >> inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on* >> VMS).  Authentication is the _default_. > G > If you are a serious business and you have to worry about your users eD > seting up "a receptor to take unauthenticated inbound connections"G > you have a problem that no network protocol can fix.  You, obviously,.C > don't have to worry about hackers on the INTERNET if your running 
 > DECnet. :-)n  J Although DECnet can be run over the Internet, there are plenty of security' risks that do not require the Internet.m   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:48:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <kaXgtZTpzrNv@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  W In article <355hpdF4g6skfU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:r5 > In article <$j45Nf3zsBcb@eisner.encompasserve.org>,g2 > 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Z >> In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  K >>>>    Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comesoK >>>>    to data.  If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIXh >>>>    is out of luck.  >>> J >>> No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just notK >>> the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buyingr% >>> an additional commercial package.e >> mJ >> The cost is infinite, because as a software vendor I cannot choose whatJ >> other pieces my customer chooses to buy.  On VMS I can depend (heavily)? >> on RMS and count on it being there on every customer system.v > F > You skipped my last part.  They also pay for it, wether they need it	 > or not.5  C So VMS Development could have made VMS a System Integrated Product, = embedded in the system but only available with a license PAK.   F > If you offer a commercial package that depends on another commercialH > package you don't expect to find on the customers machine, you license/ > that package and provide it along with yours.h  G That works if the product is the reason people are running the machine,nI but not for utility programs.  Consider all the VMS Freeware that dependsw on RMS.r   ------------------------------   Date: 19 Jan 2005 00:09:56 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solarisu, Message-ID: <355mqkF4g5ne2U1@individual.net>  3 In article <0q6pjqA4eQDb@eisner.encompasserve.org>,@0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:Y > In article <355cdiF4ik1fqU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:E6 >> In article <WxIAUWrHAa60@eisner.encompasserve.org>,A >> 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:t` >>> In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: >>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:u< >>>>> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter.  >>>> iH >>>> Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS. >>>> eM >>>> Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMSoS >>>> because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM.s >>> 6 >>>    Not in any shop where I'm the system manager.   >> t' >> No bias in your opinions about unix.t > L > Not in _my_ shop, due to my biases about _VMS_.  SYS$SYLOGIN is undefined.I >>>    My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account".  Some OS1) >>>    are even more prevalent than UNIX.@ >> v >> Name one! > 
 > 1. Windows.   G I'm sorry, I thought that we were talking about real operating systems.rD Actually, current Windows technology does  not have any account thatC is specifically the admin account.  Anyone can be an administrator.gF And MS has even gone so far as to recommend the removal of the default account named "Administrator".   >  > 2. Linux.-  = And just what exactly is the "admin" account called on Linux?l   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   6   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:40:41 -0500l' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: vms versus solarist, Message-ID: <41EDC8A9.5060005@tsoft-inc.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  O > In article <41ED66BE.F1CE734B@nobody.org>, nobody <nobody@nobody.org> writes:a >  >>Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>L >>>With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticatedJ >>>inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on* >>>VMS).  Authentication is the _default_. >>> I >>Not on VMS. You need certain privileges to listen on a port < 1024. (ore+ >>have your app defined in TCPIP Services).  >> > E > But no privilege to listen on a port with a higher number.  I could E > conspire with others to all be listening on port 12345 and we couldeD > set up some supposedly (by our individual managers) valid businessF > application that totally bypassed the organization's security rules. > D > DECnet requires privilege to receive _any_ unauthenticated inbound
 > connection.e >     M The default on VMS it to grant TMPMBX and NETMBX to a user.  I'm a bit fuzzy aL about DECnet at this time, so I'm not sure, but I think this gives non-priv 5 users capability to send and receive DECnet messages.l  O Perhaps you're being a bit too picky.  I'm not sure what you're refering to as fL "unauthenticated inbound connections".  From my perspective, which is NOT a N super sensitive with respect to security perspective, a TCP/IP listener on an Q unprived port isn't a big issue.  It's still got to be a valid user.  If you set tM up a user, that user doing whatever he/she is allowed wouldn't be a security a issue, at least to me.  O As for an organization's security rules, if you set up a non-captive user, and  O that's Ok according to the rules, then anything that user can do is also Ok by b
 the rules.  N If it's a captive user, then they can't invoke their own code/programs anyway.  M Ok, my entire experience has not been in any environment that requires heavy  < security, and therefore my perspectives may not be relavent.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:48:12 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>l Subject: Re: vms versus solaris,, Message-ID: <41EDCA6C.8020900@tsoft-inc.com>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  Y > In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:y >  > I >>>   Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comeshI >>>   to data.  If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIXs >>>   is out of luck.e >>>fH >>No, it's not.  ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just notI >>the default.  And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying)# >>an additional commercial package.e >> > I > The cost is infinite, because as a software vendor I cannot choose whatoI > other pieces my customer chooses to buy.  On VMS I can depend (heavily)(> > on RMS and count on it being there on every customer system. >   L In an educational environment, a system manager runs HIS systems however he Q wants.  However, a software product may have certain environmental requirements,  K which is a problem if the vendor cannot be sure the environment will exist.n  O And then there are windows vendors that just assume a system exists solely for yJ their product, that place files in system directories, and an icon on the Q desktop.  Oh, and load without asking additional items onto your system.  Sorry, ) couldn't resist.  :-)u   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:05:11 -0500d' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>s Subject: Re: vms versus solaris * Message-ID: <41EDCE67.50107@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:    H > I am sure (and I certainly hope) that other readers hear realize thereJ > is no animosity between me and Dave or Bob or anyone else here.  I don'tH > know about them, but I enjoy the lively debates and I even learn stuffK > from them. (I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the difference H > between Symbols and Logicals as I really thought they were pretty much3 > the same except for the method of defining them.)     . I wish someone else would do this.  Oh well...  N Symbols exist within a process.  They can be global to the process, or can be O local to a DCL procedure.  Symbols have a value, and can be evaluated, set and  # re-set by DCL and library routines.u  P Logicals are entries in various tables, process, group, system, cluster, and at P various levels in some of the catagories.  A "logical name" can also be used to P represent another logical name.  It can represent multiple values, as when used P to represent multiple disk/directory locations.  Logical names are evaluated by  the filespec parser.  L And now you probably know less than before.  It's a bit tough for me, I use O logical names, but have never gave much thought to a formal definition of what  K they are.  I'm sure someone else could give a better 'design view' of what i logical names are.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:37:30 -0800-# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>c Subject: Re: vms versus solaris ( Message-ID: <opskty0sgszgicya@hyrrokkin>  G On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:05:11 -0500, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  e wrote:  0 > I wish someone else would do this.  Oh well...K >  Symbols exist within a process.  They can be global to the process, or  .F > can be local to a DCL procedure.  Symbols have a value, and can be  8 > evaluated, set and re-set by DCL and library routines.D >  Logicals are entries in various tables, process, group, system,  I > cluster, and at various levels in some of the catagories.  A "logical  aE > name" can also be used to represent another logical name.  It can  JA > represent multiple values, as when used to represent multiple  rJ > disk/directory locations.  Logical names are evaluated by the filespec  	 > parser.>L >  And now you probably know less than before.  It's a bit tough for me, I  C > use logical names, but have never gave much thought to a formal  aK > definition of what they are.  I'm sure someone else could give a better  w* > 'design view' of what logical names are. >  Dave  >d Don't symbols also have a type?v     -- uC Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:02:56 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>r Subject: Re: vms versus solarisi, Message-ID: <41EDDBE9.3540BF6D@teksavvy.com>   Dave Froble wrote:N > The default on VMS it to grant TMPMBX and NETMBX to a user.  I'm a bit fuzzyM > about DECnet at this time, so I'm not sure, but I think this gives non-privm7 > users capability to send and receive DECnet messages.o  F You need privs (I believe SYSNAM) to create a decnet object anyone canH connect to without any authentication. (or have read/write access to the) NCP database to define the object there).v   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 03:51:17 GMTt9 From: Bob Harris <nospam.News.Bob@remove.Smith-Harris.us>  Subject: Re: vms versus solarisyD Message-ID: <nospam.News.Bob-F38BA1.22511618012005@news.verizon.net>  * In article <41EDCE67.50107@tsoft-inc.com>,)  Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:    > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > J > > I am sure (and I certainly hope) that other readers hear realize thereL > > is no animosity between me and Dave or Bob or anyone else here.  I don'tJ > > know about them, but I enjoy the lively debates and I even learn stuffM > > from them. (I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the difference5J > > between Symbols and Logicals as I really thought they were pretty much5 > > the same except for the method of defining them.)q >  > 0 > I wish someone else would do this.  Oh well... > P > Symbols exist within a process.  They can be global to the process, or can be M > local to a DCL procedure.  Symbols have a value, and can be evaluated, set e > and % > re-set by DCL and library routines.y > O > Logicals are entries in various tables, process, group, system, cluster, and   > at mO > various levels in some of the catagories.  A "logical name" can also be used a > to sM > represent another logical name.  It can represent multiple values, as when k > used  O > to represent multiple disk/directory locations.  Logical names are evaluated 4 > by 6 > the filespec parser. > N > And now you probably know less than before.  It's a bit tough for me, I use L > logical names, but have never gave much thought to a formal definition of  > what nM > they are.  I'm sure someone else could give a better 'design view' of what x > logical names are. >  > Dave  C More on symbols.  Local symbols have what I like to call "Umbrella  B Scope"  that is to say, a sub procedure can look up and see local I variables created in a parent procedure, unless the subprocedure creates -" a local symbol with the same name.  I UNIX script variables do not have this characteristic.  And while script  F variables can local or global (depending on which shell is being run) I they are not the same kind of global as a VMS Global Symbol.  That is to lD say they are only visible to scripts running in the current process = which and not to any subprocess or program that might be run.   B A shell symbol that needs to be visible to a child process and/or D program invoked from a script can be made an environment variable.  G Environment variables are passed down (inherited) by child processes.  TF BUT, unlike a Global Symbol, changes to the environment variable by a I child process are _NOT_ visible to the parent.  Changes are only visible  E to the child process that changes the environment variable or to any sH child processes that it creates.  This is because environment variables H are copied from the parent onto the stack of the child process, and the F parent does not have access to that address space, and when the child I terminates, the child's stack is deleted.  So any return information has oD to use a different means (and we have all kinds of tricks, the most E common of which is to have the parent read what we write to standard y out).a  E And another point about logicals is that there does not need to be a  F parent child relationship for some classes of logicals to be seen (or I there can if you use the right class).  And logicals can be used to pass  B information from the child back to the parent, if that is desired.  H And Global Symbols can also be used to return information to the parent C when running a program that does not spawn a subprocess, because a dG program is run in the same process space as DCL, just a different mode.b  I Passing information from child to parent or to non-related processes can  H not be down via variables or environment variables.  Child to parent is F frequently done by the parent establishing a pipe between the child's F standard out and reading that to capture any information to be passed H back.   Non-parent/child information passing could use the file system, H as in either the name of a file, the contents of a symbolic link (which H does not need to be a file spec, but rather can be almost anything), or I the content of a file, or a named pipe, a message queue for interprocess y" message passing, or shared memory.  D I would say the closest thing to a logical name would be a symbolic F link.  I'm not saying it does everything a logical does, just that it H can be used to pass information around, as well as be used to hold file G spec information.  And a symbolic link is accessible anywhere the file lG system can be seen, such as Tru64 TruCluster or even NFS server/client iG mounted disk. Although not too many applications actually use symbolic rH links to pass information.  File and shared memory are much more common  for unrelated processes.  , And just to put my credentials on the table:  B o  12 years OpenVMS as System Admin, Applications programmer, and F PATHWORKS for Mac file server developer (with a smidge of kernel code  for intrusion detection).o  E o  12 years UNIX as System Admin, Applications programmer, and Tru64 w; UNIX AdvFS file system developer working inside the kernel.s  H I have _ALWAYS_ had SYSTEM or ROOT access (and the scars to prove it :-)  G And for the most part I tend to agree with most of the stuff that Bill  I Gunshannon has been try to say.  OpenVMS has its strengths, and UNIX has kH it strengths.  If you know one and not the other, you are going to tend  to favor the one you know.  H And since this is comp.os.vms, I say, buy more OpenVMS systems and keep  the ZKO3-4 fully populated :-)  2                                         Bob Harris   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:16:19 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>e Subject: Re: vms versus solarisl+ Message-ID: <41EDDF0C.A7AC067@teksavvy.com>f   Dave Froble wrote:O > Symbols exist within a process.  They can be global to the process, or can be|P > local to a DCL procedure.  Symbols have a value, and can be evaluated, set and% > re-set by DCL and library routines.n    C Would it be more precise to state that symbols exist at the CLI/DCLdH level, whereas logicals exist in various tables, including a process and job tables ?  @ Is it correct to state that RUN/DETACHED image.exe will not give9 image.exe access to any symbols for reading and writing ?0   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:46:49 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)b Subject: Re: vms versus solaris(3 Message-ID: <0rF4L0yqRgL6@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  N In article <opsktoxpk4zgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:  L >> As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of   >> UNIXlL >> do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experienceL >> came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff   >> hasJ >> changed since then). It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup withE >> experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight.f >  >  > G > ulimit(1)                                                            o > ulimit(1)  >  > NAME > . >    ulimit - Sets or reports a resource limit  E I did not see anything in that description specifying the name of theh user affected.  B Does this mean that all users on the system have the same quotas ?   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:49:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i Subject: Re: vms versus solaris 3 Message-ID: <ktwwB54Wn1Q+@eisner.encompasserve.org>F  V In article <41EDC8A9.5060005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > P >> In article <41ED66BE.F1CE734B@nobody.org>, nobody <nobody@nobody.org> writes: >> d >>>Larry Kilgallen wrote:l >>>lM >>>>With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticatedbK >>>>inbound connections.  With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least onw+ >>>>VMS).  Authentication is the _default_.n >>>>J >>>Not on VMS. You need certain privileges to listen on a port < 1024. (or, >>>have your app defined in TCPIP Services). >>>o >> oF >> But no privilege to listen on a port with a higher number.  I couldF >> conspire with others to all be listening on port 12345 and we couldE >> set up some supposedly (by our individual managers) valid businesshG >> application that totally bypassed the organization's security rules.u >>  E >> DECnet requires privilege to receive _any_ unauthenticated inbound  >> connection. >>   >  > O > The default on VMS it to grant TMPMBX and NETMBX to a user.  I'm a bit fuzzy  N > about DECnet at this time, so I'm not sure, but I think this gives non-priv 7 > users capability to send and receive DECnet messages.e  G Yes, to send and receive messages, but not to set up a service that cans, receive unauthenticated inbound connections.  Q > Perhaps you're being a bit too picky.  I'm not sure what you're refering to as -N > "unauthenticated inbound connections".  From my perspective, which is NOT a P > super sensitive with respect to security perspective, a TCP/IP listener on an S > unprived port isn't a big issue.  It's still got to be a valid user.  If you set nO > up a user, that user doing whatever he/she is allowed wouldn't be a security r > issue, at least to me.  C And that is the difference between IP security and DECnet security.s   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:50:24 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a Subject: Re: vms versus solaris>3 Message-ID: <zNWqsTiaytT1@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  V In article <41EDCA6C.8020900@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  Q > And then there are windows vendors that just assume a system exists solely for n > their product,  7 Database products for VMS used to make that assumption.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:17:52 -0500i( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: vms versus solaris = Message-ID: <266dnSKD594SZnDcRVn-3w@metrocastcablevision.com>M   Larry Kilgallen wrote:Y > In article <355hpdF4g6skfU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:t   ...a  F >>If you offer a commercial package that depends on another commercialH >>package you don't expect to find on the customers machine, you license/ >>that package and provide it along with yours.r >  > I > That works if the product is the reason people are running the machine,hK > but not for utility programs.  Consider all the VMS Freeware that dependsw	 > on RMS.u  I And if RMS weren't there, either those utilities wouldn't depend upon it e4 or they would bundle in whatever they did depend on.  I Look, guys:  I'm about as record-biased as one can get.  While I believe tH that RMS could (and should) be made much more approachable and possibly E more streamlined internally to avoid imposing overheads on those who sA don't need them (the implicit system cost of bundling it in is a rG separate, though similar, issue, but I firmly believe that if RMS-type  I facilities were *standard* in the industry the industry would appreciate nE them - and I tried to get DEC to take the lead in standardizing them cD across Unix and Windows almost 20 years ago), when it comes to data 8 management I think byte streams represent the stone age.  D But the incontrovertible fact is that most of the world doesn't see ? things that way.  They're quite happy with Unix- and (shudder) -G Windows-level byte-stream file systems, plus add-on packages when they "C need them such as dbm (free, I think), Postgres and IBPhoenix (nee DG Interbase), both free and the latter with a relatively small footprint lH and excellent reputation, Berkeley db and C-ISAM-like products (free or D at least low-cost), and Oracle (not free at all, but still popular).  F Given its splendid isolation from the rest of the industry, just like H many other useful aspects of VMS RMS simply doesn't constitute anything G like a decisive plus, save perhaps (if you consider this an advantage)  F to the degree that it locks in VMS customers who can't easily migrate E applications which depend on it elsewhere.  Just one more example of  A where Digital Had It Then but failed to turn it into the lasting o> leverage of a true (sanctioned or de facto) industry standard.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:28:49 -0600w2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> Subject: VMS: Paradigm+ Message-ID: <41EDC5E1.214ABAA5@comcast.net>r    I wasn't sure how to title this.  F The thought occurred to me today (told you I'm rather slow) that thereG is perhaps a larger difference between the incumbent OpenVMS managementlA and the denizens of this group than is immediately obvious at they surface.  F Quite possibly, the incumbents are "pacificists"; that is, play along,H don't rock the boat, get into retirement position then quietly slip into VMS history.  H The denizens of this group, on the other hand, are entrepreneurs in someE part, but in large measure, we are "fighters". Evidence in the GoogletH archives of this group shows that we will stick to our guns to the last, and then some.  C Perhaps HP management would do well to consider recruiting the next>D generation of VMS custodians from groups like this, and seek out the* "wolves", the fighters, the entrepreneurs.  6 We now return you to your regularly scheduled reality.   -- o David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/l   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:50:15 -0500i  From: Dave <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Webcast and VMS* Message-ID: <41EDD8F7.40709@tsoft-inc.com>  E You asked for suggestions for improving the perception of VMS in the  5 marketplace.  At least I think that's what you asked.u  B I think you've already said what's required. A quote from the Q&A:  M "OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operating environments in the industry."t  C All you need to do is continue to say this publically.  Often.  In >M advertisements.  Every salesman should make this statement to a customer, at s: least once, regardless of what the customer is looking at.  M If a customer had to choose between a perceived "industry standard" and "the eQ best", how many people do you know that want second best.  All you have to do is yJ make sure that they know that "the best" exists, and is available from HP.  Q It's my perception that HP makes more on a VMS sale than most other HP products. ,L   Most VMS customers buy lots of support.  Good support, forget about India.   Dave   -- o4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com 170 Grimplin Roada Vanderbilt, PA  154860   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:48:48 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com># Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loopeC Message-ID: <1106074128.862063.134240@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote:s > AEF wrote:A > > 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good:m >  >.F > You went and looked for it. The average guy just heard the repeatingE > broken Carly loop that said nothing and went away. That loop didn't  > mention anything about VMS.d >e: > And of the few questions about VMS tha were allowe to beG > displayed/answer, there must have been plenty that weren't published. G > But at least Livermore and company go to read the questions, and that  is > a way to send a message.  D Actually, there *were* a fair number of VMS questions, including oneB that made references to other stuff as "toy operating systems" andC "billy boxes". Also, at least one answer contained an "unsolicited"1A mention of VMS (VMS was not at all in the question). The word VMSSF occurred in at least 46 lines of the chat. I counted 18 questions thatG included VMS. That's more than a few. I copied and pasted the chat texta$ if you require proof -- let me know.  C I am not asking you to put on rose-colored glasses (or whatever thea> phrase is), but instead to take off the doom-and-gloom shades!  E We need to take the positive aspects of this and make the most of it!rG Ann *specifically* asked for suggestions about expanding the market for 8 VMS. Let's give her some polite, constructive responses!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:39:19 -0500v  From: nobody <nobody@nobody.org># Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loope* Message-ID: <41ED65DA.C66C5E52@nobody.org>  
 AEF wrote:F > Actually, there *were* a fair number of VMS questions, including one@ > that made references to other stuff as "toy operating systems"  ( I'd bet that was was asked by VAXman ...  C I suspect that they were bombarded by VMS questions, but decided to D provide a more balanced output since the audience was supposed to beH wider than VMS folks. I think Sue may have in fact done a very strategicK and succesful move with her letters, as well as Ken Farmer's publicity etc.i  G Perhaps Sue saw this not as an opportunity for HP to talk to customers,pH but rather the opposite. An opportunity for VMS customers to voice their* concerns/questions to HP's top management.  H It would be very interesting to see what Livermore and Company would say& about the chat in a pst event meeting.  E Livermore did one HUGE mistake in her answers though. She essentiallynB admitted that they don't expect VMS to grow because customers wantA "industry standard" solutions.  How the <xxx> how you supposed tof@ attract new ISVs when the vendor publicly states they don't haveF intentiosn to grow that OS and are happy just maintaining the existing customer base ?r  G While it may have been a frank and honest answer, this one may turn out ( to be almosts as bad as Stallard's memo.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:50:49 -0500A# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c# Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop , Message-ID: <5qGdnRXsGqcH9XDcRVn-tg@igs.net>  
 nobody wrote:s > AEF wrote:G >> Actually, there *were* a fair number of VMS questions, including onesA >> that made references to other stuff as "toy operating systems"o >o* > I'd bet that was was asked by VAXman ... > E > I suspect that they were bombarded by VMS questions, but decided tocF > provide a more balanced output since the audience was supposed to be@ > wider than VMS folks. I think Sue may have in fact done a very? > strategic and succesful move with her letters, as well as KenN > Farmer's publicity etc.i >n> > Perhaps Sue saw this not as an opportunity for HP to talk toF > customers, but rather the opposite. An opportunity for VMS customers; > to voice their concerns/questions to HP's top management.t >lF > It would be very interesting to see what Livermore and Company would, > say about the chat in a pst event meeting. >.G > Livermore did one HUGE mistake in her answers though. She essentiallypD > admitted that they don't expect VMS to grow because customers wantC > "industry standard" solutions.  How the <xxx> how you supposed toiB > attract new ISVs when the vendor publicly states they don't haveH > intentiosn to grow that OS and are happy just maintaining the existing > customer base ?i >uE > While it may have been a frank and honest answer, this one may turnA > out0* > to be almosts as bad as Stallard's memo.    K I concurr.  Wait until the trade rags write about this statement - VMS will2, get 2-3 paragraphs of press it doesn't need.   ------------------------------    Date: 18 Jan 2005 12:49:46 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com># Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loopeA Message-ID: <1106081386.822623.4230@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>.  
 nobody wrote:d > AEF wrote:D > > Actually, there *were* a fair number of VMS questions, including oneaB > > that made references to other stuff as "toy operating systems" > * > I'd bet that was was asked by VAXman ...   That's my guess, also.  E > I suspect that they were bombarded by VMS questions, but decided toiF > provide a more balanced output since the audience was supposed to be@ > wider than VMS folks. I think Sue may have in fact done a very	 strategico> > and succesful move with her letters, as well as Ken Farmer's publicity etc. >-> > Perhaps Sue saw this not as an opportunity for HP to talk to
 customers,D > but rather the opposite. An opportunity for VMS customers to voice theire, > concerns/questions to HP's top management. >dF > It would be very interesting to see what Livermore and Company would say.( > about the chat in a pst event meeting. >lG > Livermore did one HUGE mistake in her answers though. She essentially D > admitted that they don't expect VMS to grow because customers wantC > "industry standard" solutions.  How the <xxx> how you supposed toyB > attract new ISVs when the vendor publicly states they don't have? > intentiosn to grow that OS and are happy just maintaining the  existing > customer base ?o >sE > While it may have been a frank and honest answer, this one may turns outt* > to be almosts as bad as Stallard's memo.  F I am not familiar with Stallard's memo and so I won't comment on that.
 However...  @ Would you prefer that she lie? If hp doesn't have an advertisingE campaign in the works, what is she to say? I'd assume the prospectivenG ISV's have already figured this out by now anyway. She said she is openaB to suggetsions and I suggest that we send her polite, constructiveE suggestions instead of obsessing on the worst possible interpretation  of her answer.  ? I admit, though, that she avoided giving a direct answer to then	 question.:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:36:31 -0500v' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>@# Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loopc, Message-ID: <41EDD5BF.6040505@tsoft-inc.com>  
 nobody wrote:s   > AEF wrote: > F >>Actually, there *were* a fair number of VMS questions, including one@ >>that made references to other stuff as "toy operating systems" >> > * > I'd bet that was was asked by VAXman ... > E > I suspect that they were bombarded by VMS questions, but decided to F > provide a more balanced output since the audience was supposed to beJ > wider than VMS folks. I think Sue may have in fact done a very strategicM > and succesful move with her letters, as well as Ken Farmer's publicity etc.o > I > Perhaps Sue saw this not as an opportunity for HP to talk to customers,lJ > but rather the opposite. An opportunity for VMS customers to voice their, > concerns/questions to HP's top management. > J > It would be very interesting to see what Livermore and Company would say( > about the chat in a pst event meeting. > G > Livermore did one HUGE mistake in her answers though. She essentially5D > admitted that they don't expect VMS to grow because customers wantC > "industry standard" solutions.  How the <xxx> how you supposed to B > attract new ISVs when the vendor publicly states they don't haveH > intentiosn to grow that OS and are happy just maintaining the existing > customer base ?a > I > While it may have been a frank and honest answer, this one may turn outp* > to be almosts as bad as Stallard's memo. >   L Well, if she, and others, would continue to say what she did say, something K about VMS being a very robust enterprise environment, that would be a hugh uD improvement.  If they just continue to say that, it might be enough.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:14:23 -0500v# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>rB Subject: Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly), Message-ID: <EfydnXFS2KOS_XDcRVn-vg@igs.net>   johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com wrote:e > John Smith wrote:>< >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/18/2302980 >>; >> some additional comment and questions asked/not answeredm >> >>G >> Probably should continue in this thread by contributing questions weu' >> each asked that didn't get answered.r > E > Okay. Here's one from the Q&A chat that I captured... I know one ofo7 > you is responsible, I just want to know who to thank.D >aE > Q: When will the higher-ups at HP realize the value of VMS as beingmG > not just another version of a toy operating system, or a billybox OS, G > and really tout it as unique, solid, reliable, mission-critical, etc?bA > Or are you all so caught up in towing the Microsoft party line?S >SB > Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operatingF > environments in the industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMS> > available on Integrity speaks to the fact that HP executivesG > understand its value and want it as a powerful part of our portfolio.i    L That one wasn't mine, but a couple I posted made it in part (it appears thatI there was some editing going on at HP's end prior to posting as one of myoK questions had my exact word but also some additional words prefixed...whichL; may have come from another poster with a similar question).     J Q.  It seems that HP is quite satified with the installed base of OpenVMS.C But, are you looking for *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are yourgA arguments to convince a new customer to stay off from Windows andy Linux/Unix?   I Ann Livermore (A): What we find today is that it is difficult to convinceeK new customers to adopt an operating environment that they do not view as an C industry standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of new-K customers to OpenVMS. Our greatest sales success comes from those customersoL who already have OpenVMS and choose to expand into new application areas. If8 you have suggestions for us, we would love to hear them!    ' To which I responded to Ann on-line....tI  " What else do you expect? This is what advertising and marketing does - L none of which OpenVMS has had while owned by HP. Make a list of why VMS is aJ better choice to the datacenter vs. other os'es and then you'll understandL how to market and advertise it. You've eviscerated it on the desktop but theH datacenter is where it really shines. Come to comp.os.vms and you'll getG thousands of positive, actionable ideas on how to market OpenVMS to new  customers."b  I I also politely invited her to visit us from time-to-time to chat and getoI the plain-spoken folk's opinions and have an opportunity to get her views H pushed up our chains-of-command bottom-up. But I'm not holding my breathD that any HP exec will ever participate in a usenet forum for obvious reasons.  E I also asked about positioning VMS with 'Exchange-killer' software tobH service the messaging infrastructure, more numerous success stories thatK actually get advertised, and a few other things that I can't recall at this  moment.e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.037 ************************