0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 25 Jan 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 49      Contents:P %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency i Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms  Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms  Re: DEC Keyboard Question  Re: disk drive spin direction 8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA8 Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: es45 cluster with eva  Fault-tolerant VMS Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Re: Fault-tolerant VMS HP to be SAPed again?  Re: HP to be SAPed again?  Re: HP to be SAPed again?  Re: HP to be SAPed again? 1 Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement / Re: mrtravel's next cruise - to Divorce Court.. 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS 7 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS ! Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? ! Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page?  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: RFA string format  Re: TCP/IP on OpenVMS 7.3 " TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files??& Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files??& Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files??  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:31:39 -0800 $ From: John Hixson <john@divinix.org>Y Subject: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency i 0 Message-ID: <5-Cdnfchyb9RemjcRVn-vg@inreach.com>   Hello VMS users,H    I am getting this error when attempting to install alot of software. 5 I get this error on OpenVMS 7.3 on a alpha pws 600au:   A %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data  
 inconsistency   C This error shows up when I attempt to install oracle, fortran, and  I compaq's C compiler (cc065) using @sys$update:vmsinstal . Is there a way  B I can fix this? Can I modify a script? This is starting to really  irritate me =).    Thanks,  John Hixson    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 13:54:27 -06004 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)" Subject: Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms3 Message-ID: <g+AwOd5pxSWj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <t3d695Scz4w9@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: ^ > In article <41F2BB04.706220F7@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > G >> Last week, there was an announcement by Ann Livermore that HP wasn't Q >> interested in growing VMS and was happy just keeping the installed base happy.  >  > 	Spin. > K >> Yet, this week, this was announced, and people seemed resigned to accept   >> it without much of a comment. > < > 	Like CBS, depends on the spin.  JF you've been fudding up" > 	VMS for so long , it's pitiful. > 9 > 	I suppose you care to ignore Mark Gohram's report that = > 	10-15% of VMS customers are new customers and that VMS has  > 	been growing recently.  > C > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/01/18/0435366  > Q > Mark: The OpenVMS business has seen recent growth in the low double digits year I > over year. It should also be noted that between 10 to 15 percent of our 6 > business comes for accounts that are new to OpenVMS. > A >> VMS is being ported to a dying platform nobody wants, HP isn't H >> interested in growing VMS.  Linux is free and growing. Are people nowJ >> resigned to the inevitable and don't have the energy to fight anymore ? > A > 	Look JF , we've seen your drivel for so long.  Here's a clue - G > 	you're in so many kill files you won't get much response either way.   G I have a seventy entry kill file and over sixty of them are JF related. A If we don't feed the trolls, they will eventually starve and die.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:34:50 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> " Subject: Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms, Message-ID: <41F577FD.DD51476B@teksavvy.com>   Marty Kuhrt wrote:I > I have a seventy entry kill file and over sixty of them are JF related. C > If we don't feed the trolls, they will eventually starve and die.   C If I were you, I wouldn't brag about this. Your technical expertise F can't be too high if you need that many filters to filter out anything with "mezei" in it.    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 20:54:54 -0800; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> " Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard QuestionB Message-ID: <1106628894.176258.36870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   Ken Fairfield wrote:  G > I was the instigator of one of those discussions, from Sept.2003. :-)  >    Yes, I remember the name. :)  D > I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queriedC > Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was,  > < >      "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is; >       currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout.  The 0 >       additional keys would not pass through."   That is very bad news. :(    > B > I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin.A > I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a 9 > nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad...    *sigh*   > B > As others have said, all the LK46y-xx keyboards (at least the USB > versions) have the same key layout and are all compatible with aB > standard PS/2 keyboard connection.  IIRC, the LK46W-xx is white.E > I have an LK461-A2 (beige) at work and an LK462-A2 (black) at home. C > The new LK463-xx has a USB connector, plus a USB-PS/2 adapter, so C > it can be used with both Alphas (and older PCs), and with new PCs A > and (presumably) Integrity (IA64) servers.  The only difference E > I've noticed between the various models is that the newer ones feel ! > cheaper/have poorer action. :-(  >  >      Regards, Ken   C After some additional thought I had come to the conclusion that the D LK461's were the beige and the "W's" were white. I didn't know aboutD the black ones and the USB versions.  The LK451's that John MalmbergG mentioned seem to be in short supply.  I have found none listed on Ebay F and only one DEC reseller in the States that lists them in inventory (G http://www.computertradingpost.com/webpages/rjr.htm ).  I haven't had a G chance to call and get the price.  They are not new, but reconditioned.   D I think I will still aquire one of these and try things out, but I'mG not going to have any great expectations.  Thanks for everyone's input.  John H. Reinhardt    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:56:41 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> & Subject: Re: disk drive spin direction, Message-ID: <MeGdnetppsdlz2jcRVn-tw@igs.net>  
 AEF wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote:F >> In article <1106280925.269656.309280@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,) >> "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:  >>>  >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article : > <1106278767.695842.317340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,+ >>>> "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: B >>>>> Which way does a disk drive spin? I vaguely remember hearingB >>>>> something about it spinning IN to the heads, unlike a stereo# >>>>> turntable. Do I recall right?  >>>>> G >>>>> Can anyone here answer this authoritatively? And also answer Why? " >>>>> if it spins IN to the heads. >>>>B >>>> Real disk drives don't have spiral tracks at all.  They write >>> C >>> Yes, I know that. But that has nothing to do with the question.  >>> E >>>> data in concentric circles.  CD's are written in a spiral in the E >>>> opposite direction as an old vinyl record.  I assume DVDs do the G >>>> same.  I don't know the reason for the direction, or even if there  >>>> is a reason.  >>> ? >>> But which way does the platter(s) spin relative to the head E >>> assembly? Imagine -- *except* for the circle vs. spiral aspect of E >>> it -- a disk platter(s) and its head assembly to be like a record C >>> on a stereo turntable. Does the platter(s) spin relative to the C >>> heads in the same direction or in the opposite direction as the  >>> turntable? >>>  >>> Thanks.  >> >>< >> So, you mean does it spin clockwise or counter-clockwise?E >> That I don't know for sure.  I couldn't even guess if they are all " >> the same.  Why would it matter? > E > In the case of a stereo turntable, if you spun the record backwards F > (CCW), it wouldn't work too well! I would have thought that the sameD > would be true for disk drives, but maybe there is some reason it'sG > better to run them "backwards". And if so, I'd like to know, and why.  > E > Why would it matter? Because I'm curious! I like to know how things G > work. I find things like that interesting. I find it fascinating that 0 > such devices could work so well for so little.= > As to my original question: I guess that no one here knows.     L Counter-clockwise in the northern hemisphere, clockwise in the southern  :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:09:08 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA ) Message-ID: <41F5AA20.6020608@swbell.net>    Morten Reistad wrote:   + > In article <41F31CAE.6000803@swbell.net>, - > patrick jankowiak  <eccm@swbell.net> wrote:  >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>B >>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University@ >>>for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from aA >>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince ? >>>the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really > >>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-(? >>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can > >>>come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would also? >>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with : >>>guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >  > < > Corporate sponsors are just as shallow. We need to come up > with a workable museum first.  >  > { >>I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me m >>want to listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep a good mindset but this step is  . >>  getting me down. It has to be done though. >> >>OPCOM  >  > @ > A computer museum will need large amounts of space; as well asA > access to largish amounts of energy when someone decides to run E > the machines. Much can be mocked up for the standard visitor, using C > emulators to show software on the correct terminals. But machines ? > must be kept intact. We also have the issue of documentation.  > D > Such space fast becomes the major problem. It cannot be in or veryG > near major cities, because land is too expensive there. And the scale . > of this is big enough for a full theme park. >  > So why not do this?  > C > Make a theme park around technology development and preservation. A > Remember that the audience is a premium one for many locations. B > The nerds or wannabees that visit such places have above averageA > income, are not very inclined to boozing and gambling, and tend ) > to leave the facilities without damage.  > B > It will have to be located somewhere outside the mainstream, and? > must be the magnet for people itself. Just like Disney World.  >  > -- mrr >  >   / Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, 1 have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. 3 A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see 2 it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks! don't like the hot weather much..   6 The place could become a location of pilgrimages where7 acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform 4 5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon1 while across the park, boy electricians made huge . sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors..  5 Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling - RA81's and during this activity, connected to 6 amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped+ floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" + "Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!!  Watch out for the heads!!") Space mountain's got nothing on this one!   3 Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a 7 minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, 3 that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 6 with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf9 cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. 6 And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights4 dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim,5 AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, 0 machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I1 know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other  stately machines.   7 On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? 1 Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic 3 technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment 4 with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators9 from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure 0 plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a* microwave beam through the plasma chamber?  % The progress of everything high tech: 	 computers  RF audio / Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those)  plain old electricity  tesla coil (very very large) open-frame dynamos
 what else?   Might cost what $100M to start?   9 The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, . and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates.  . It's wonderful and would probably make tons of" moolah.. Who's going to call Bill?  6 Ok so I was known for wild posts.. but that's the best: thing I've heard of yet, a geek theme park. I'd pay to go.  7 It's not going to happen before June though. That's the 5 timeframe we are looking at about now, so I'm back to  the subject at hand.   Opcom    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:15:41 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA % Message-ID: <41F5ABA9.105@swbell.net>   9 And their website wants me to download something called a 6 "plug-in". I don't trust objects that want to download" and run here, just to view a site.6 Thanks for the heads up. I am asking alot of questions6 of those contacting me (and freely answering alot more too).   5 Even though I definitely have my moments of levity, I " am very serious about this matter.   Opcom        Christian Corti wrote:  D > In alt.sys.pdp11 Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> wrote: > " >>HNF - Heinz Nixdorf MuseumsForum >>http://www.hnf.de/ >  > I > Don't give anything to them if you don't want it to be put somewhere in I > a corner or in the cellar and be handled by a staff that really doesn't L > know what they have. Even though they have lots of money they are not whatI > a real computer museum should be (having technical staff, being able to F > repair and operate the machines, etc.). As the name implies they areB > more a forum for social events (conferences etc.) than a museum. >  > Christian    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:24:51 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA ' Message-ID: <41F5ADCF.10709@swbell.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  + > In article <41F31B4C.9030206@swbell.net>, . > 	patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> writes: >  >>John Smith wrote:  >> >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>>  >>> D >>>>In article <41f284c5$0$812$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>,6 >>>>Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> F >>>>>>In article <41f237b0$0$821$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>,8 >>>>>>Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>& >>>>>>>MoS | Museum of Science, Boston >>>>>>>http://www.tcm.org/ >>>>>>>  >>>>>> >>>>>>E >>>>>>Isn't this the place that trashed all their real computer stuff A >>>>>>including stuff that had been donated by people like Dennis C >>>>>>Ritchie?  I sure didn't see anything vintage computer related  >>>>>>on thier website.  >>>>>>
 >>>>>>bill >>>>>> >>>>> H >>>>>Could be. That is maybe why they are no longer call themselves "TheD >>>>>Computer Museum" (TCM). Then it is good that such proposals are >>>>>discussed in a forum. >>>>>  >>>>>Thanks Bill.  >>>>>  >>>>C >>>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University A >>>>for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from a B >>>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince@ >>>>the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really? >>>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-( @ >>>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can? >>>>come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would also @ >>>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with; >>>>guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again.  >>>  >>>  >>> A >>>The Smithsonian ought to be interested in something like this.  >>>  >>>  >> >>I just shot them an e-mail.  >  > ? > I doubt they are interested and I wouldn't trust them with it  > even if they said they were. >  >  > bill >   > They have not broken down any doors to respond. I am generally; nervous about museums as I have said. We planned to own the 5 eventual property and therefore not be at the whim of : landlords or evil boards of directors. There were over the8 time period many 'almost condemned' buildings in Dallas.7 Almost condemned simply means "needs this or that or we  will tear it down" etc.   : There was a nice 10000 sq ft warehouse with leaky roof for8 $60K, with a loading dock and street access to the front: doors. Problem was the crackheads.. I'd have to be bustin' a cap from time to time.. hehe.    Opcom    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:28:49 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA ) Message-ID: <41F5AEBE.4010802@swbell.net>    John Smith wrote:    > patrick jankowiak wrote: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>B >>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University@ >>>for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from aA >>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince ? >>>the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really > >>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-(? >>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can > >>>come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would also? >>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with : >>>guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>>  >>>bill  >>>  >> >>Bill,  >>C >>I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just D >>   waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me want toF >>listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep aB >>good mindset but this step is getting me down. It has to be done	 >>though.  >  >  > I > Maybe there's an unused hanger at Davis Monthan AFB (the "Boneyard") in C > Arizona that the collection can be housed in  :-)  or Area 51 ;-)  > N > Or maybe Hollywood would want them to use in a sci-fi movie.....sort of likeL > the scene in 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' where Flight 19's planes+ > emerge out of the swirling sandstorm.....  >  > + We know what hollywood would do to them. :(    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:32:58 GMT ) From: patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA ) Message-ID: <41F5AFB6.4050104@swbell.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:  + > In article <41F3196B.4080708@swbell.net>, . > 	patrick jankowiak <eccm@swbell.net> writes: >  >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>C >>>In article <41f284c5$0$812$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, 6 >>>	Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> writes: >>>  >>>  >>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>E >>>>>In article <41f237b0$0$821$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, 8 >>>>>	Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de> writes: >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> % >>>>>>MoS | Museum of Science, Boston  >>>>>>http://www.tcm.org/  >>>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> D >>>>>Isn't this the place that trashed all their real computer stuff@ >>>>>including stuff that had been donated by people like DennisB >>>>>Ritchie?  I sure didn't see anything vintage computer related >>>>>on thier website. >>>>> 	 >>>>>bill  >>>>>  >>>>H >>>>Could be. That is maybe why they are no longer call themselves "The D >>>>Computer Museum" (TCM). Then it is good that such proposals are  >>>>discussed in a forum.  >>>> >>>>Thanks Bill. >>>> >>>  >>> B >>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University@ >>>for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from aA >>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince ? >>>the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really > >>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-(? >>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can > >>>come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would also? >>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with : >>>guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>>  >>>bill  >>>  >>C >>I have some experience with such entities. Unless permanent space 6 >>is allocated, items are often eventually disposed of@ >>unceremoniously and in an ugly manner. I witnessed this at the? >>"texas broadcast museum". The volunteers were suddenly locked ? >>out, and the BOD privately sold off many assets to line their A >>own pockets, and the stuff that was too big to sell was trashed = >>(including the Voice of America broadcasting console and an C >>ancient 5000 watt RCA AM transmitter) and the place now converted B >>to guided tours hands-off, beginning and ending in the gift shop@ >>which had been the tech lab where exhibits were serviced.. May  >>the BOD rot for that disgrace. >>B >>I am not saying that's what would happen, but I am concerned forC >>the future of our historical charges and the legacy they bespeak.  >> >  > = > That can happen  no matter where the items go, as should be : > evident given the history of the Boston Computer Museum.< > I am configdent that so long as I could continue to garner; > corportate sponsorship in the form of small (small to any ; > real corporation) grants to cover operating expenses like 9 > payroll for the workers/curators [mostly drawn from the 7 > ranks of students which would a) keep the cost down,  : > b) make the operation even more in-line with the mission; > of the University, and c) provide experience and learning > > to the students that I personally think would be invaluable]= > and acquisition of additional exhibits, keeping space would  > not be a problem.  >  > bill > ? Well, please contact me if you think you can do this. I am open = to discussion, just send an e-mail to me at the web page with > contact info, and I can call you, we can always talk about it.   Opcom    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:20:48 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> A Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA , Message-ID: <jvOdnZxLhuqCVGjcRVn-oA@igs.net>   patrick jankowiak wrote: > Morten Reistad wrote:  > , >> In article <41F31CAE.6000803@swbell.net>,. >> patrick jankowiak  <eccm@swbell.net> wrote: >> >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>  >>>  >>> D >>>> I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the UniversityB >>>> for a long time.  I figured if I could get commitments from aC >>>> few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince A >>>> the University to give me the necessary space.  But I really @ >>>> don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers.  :-(A >>>> My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can @ >>>> come in and actually play with the equipment.  I would alsoA >>>> make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with < >>>> guest accounts.  But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >> >>= >> Corporate sponsors are just as shallow. We need to come up   >> with a workable museum first. >> >>E >>> I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just C >>> waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me want to G >>>  listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep F >>> a good mindset but this step is getting me down. It has to be done >>> though.  >>> 	 >>> OPCOM  >> >>A >> A computer museum will need large amounts of space; as well as B >> access to largish amounts of energy when someone decides to runF >> the machines. Much can be mocked up for the standard visitor, usingD >> emulators to show software on the correct terminals. But machines@ >> must be kept intact. We also have the issue of documentation. >>E >> Such space fast becomes the major problem. It cannot be in or very H >> near major cities, because land is too expensive there. And the scale/ >> of this is big enough for a full theme park.  >> >> So why not do this? >>D >> Make a theme park around technology development and preservation.B >> Remember that the audience is a premium one for many locations.C >> The nerds or wannabees that visit such places have above average B >> income, are not very inclined to boozing and gambling, and tend* >> to leave the facilities without damage. >>C >> It will have to be located somewhere outside the mainstream, and @ >> must be the magnet for people itself. Just like Disney World. >>	 >> -- mrr  >> >> > 1 > Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, 3 > have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. 5 > A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see 4 > it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks# > don't like the hot weather much..  > 8 > The place could become a location of pilgrimages where9 > acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform 6 > 5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon3 > while across the park, boy electricians made huge 0 > sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors.. > 7 > Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling / > RA81's and during this activity, connected to 8 > amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped- > floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" - > "Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!!  > Watch out for the heads!!"+ > Space mountain's got nothing on this one!  > 5 > Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a 9 > minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, 5 > that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 8 > with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf; > cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. 8 > And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights6 > dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim,7 > AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, 2 > machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I3 > know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other  > stately machines.  > 9 > On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? 3 > Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic 5 > technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment 6 > with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators; > from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure 2 > plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a, > microwave beam through the plasma chamber? > ' > The progress of everything high tech:  > computers  > RF > audio 1 > Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those)  > plain old electricity  > tesla coil (very very large) > open-frame dynamos > what else? > ! > Might cost what $100M to start?  > ; > The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, 0 > and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates. > 0 > It's wonderful and would probably make tons of$ > moolah.. Who's going to call Bill?    J You'd probably have more luck with Allen, Wozniak, and Ellison. Maybe even Ross Perot.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:43:19 -0600 2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: es45 cluster with eva+ Message-ID: <41F5A436.966D9BAF@comcast.net>    ugex wrote:  > 
 > Hi Guys: > I > I want to assembly a cluster with es45 and ds25 under ovms 7.3-r1 but I  > have an Eva storage. > F > Some one know any documentation about to how configure clusters with > eva..?  G You'll be doing what's known as an "NI" (network interconnect) cluster. 4 Otherwise, both machines simply access the same SAN.  1 The cluster configuration manual is on-line. See:   . http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os732_index.html   ...and on that page...  - Guidelines for OpenVMS Cluster Configurations 8 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6318/6318PRO.HTML   OpenVMS Cluster Systems 8 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/4477/4477PRO.HTML   --   David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: " http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/    Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:59:31 -0500 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Fault-tolerant VMS , Message-ID: <28adndddVsRe8mjcRVn-ow@igs.net>  K There was a post back in October about a FT810 VAX along with the following  comment,  H "The system runs OpenVMS with a small optional package to make the faultL tolerant hardware work. Once that is installed, all software that runs on itJ is fault tolerant, completely. No funny link libraries or special software" packages to build into your code."    C Now that VMS 8.2 is formally released and that IA64/NSK hardware is J scheduled for release later this year, is there any reason why (aside fromK politics) that the old Fault-Tolerant Software Services for VMS couldn't be  dusted off?   G It would seem to me that given HP's focusing on the top global users of L VMS - Gorham's 660 accounts - that many of them could probably use and wouldI like to use FTSS on shiny new FT-Itanics if they could get their hands on 
 them for VMS.   G I'm certain that 'lesser' customers could also use the functionality of J FT-VMS and clusters for their $500MM businesses too - right along side all/ those nice spiffy Unix portability initiatives.   H You never know what kind of demand could be generated, especially if VMS were advertised.  @ http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/1990-1.htm  2 Digital Technical Journal Vol. 3 No. 1 Winter 1991I http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ100/tp-introduction.txt B http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ108/DTJ108SC.TXT   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:36:22 GMT A From: "Colin Butcher" <colin_DOT.butcher_AT@xdelta_DOT.co_DOT.uk>  Subject: Re: Fault-tolerant VMS = Message-ID: <WDfJd.18199$GG1.7693@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>   F The VAXFT was special hardware (completely duplicated  CPU, memory, IOL controllers, discs etc. all running in lockstep, neatly split into two zonesF with separate power, UPS etc.) capable of surviving unplanned hardwareD failure. VMS ran on it quite happily without noticing the underlyingL hardware. The VAXFTSS additional software allowed an application to be awareJ of additional functionality and thus be able to do something about partialH hardware failure that didn't take the box out, but where the failure had< reduced it from full duplication to something nearer normal.  H One very hairy trick was upgrading the OS - you could split the hardwareK zones (thus losing hardware level redundancy), then cluster them, then do aFA rolling upgrade, then stitch it back together as a single machine  afterwards.   H I know at least one such box still running with scorch marks up the backF where part of it caught fire - and it never stopped working due to theH built-in UPS, even when the entire room around it had been powered down.  H Doing that trick with an Integrity server would require a completely newE hardware platform design to deliver hardware level fully redundant FT H capability. That's what the non-stop range pretty much does, just runs a* different OS that is transaction oriented.  E There are other ways of solving this type of problem. I sometimes usePJ small machines, each dedicated (in at least pairs) to a specific function,I all keeping each other up to date with which machine is in charge of whatrK function. Best result so far is just over 16 years without loss of service,pE including complete hardware replacement (several times), OS upgrades,e application changes, etc. etc.  E As for advertising VMS' capability in this area - why don't you writeMG something and get it published? I'm sure that Ken Farmer et al would be  happy to do so.s   -- a   Hope this helps, Colin. ) colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uknL Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and	 networks.e. "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message& news:28adndddVsRe8mjcRVn-ow@igs.net...C > There was a post back in October about a FT810 VAX along with thee	 following 
 > comment, > J > "The system runs OpenVMS with a small optional package to make the faultK > tolerant hardware work. Once that is installed, all software that runs ont itL > is fault tolerant, completely. No funny link libraries or special software$ > packages to build into your code." >  >nE > Now that VMS 8.2 is formally released and that IA64/NSK hardware isuL > scheduled for release later this year, is there any reason why (aside fromJ > politics) that the old Fault-Tolerant Software Services for VMS couldn't be
 > dusted off?m >oI > It would seem to me that given HP's focusing on the top global users ofSH > VMS - Gorham's 660 accounts - that many of them could probably use and would@K > like to use FTSS on shiny new FT-Itanics if they could get their hands ont > them for VMS.  >tI > I'm certain that 'lesser' customers could also use the functionality ofVL > FT-VMS and clusters for their $500MM businesses too - right along side all1 > those nice spiffy Unix portability initiatives.  >tJ > You never know what kind of demand could be generated, especially if VMS > were advertised. >hB > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/1990-1.htm > 4 > Digital Technical Journal Vol. 3 No. 1 Winter 1991K > http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ100/tp-introduction.txteD > http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ108/DTJ108SC.TXT >O >x >@ >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:12:39 -0600>' From: "Tom M" <kryios@spam.comcast.net>r Subject: Re: Fault-tolerant VMS60 Message-ID: <b92dnf4qZcFJAGjcRVn-iA@comcast.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message& news:28adndddVsRe8mjcRVn-ow@igs.net...C > There was a post back in October about a FT810 VAX along with then	 followinge
 > comment, > J > "The system runs OpenVMS with a small optional package to make the faultK > tolerant hardware work. Once that is installed, all software that runs onh itL > is fault tolerant, completely. No funny link libraries or special software$ > packages to build into your code." >e >tE > Now that VMS 8.2 is formally released and that IA64/NSK hardware is L > scheduled for release later this year, is there any reason why (aside fromJ > politics) that the old Fault-Tolerant Software Services for VMS couldn't be
 > dusted off?l >i, The NSK hardware may not be appropriate. See  k http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3044&Thread=113&entryID=45371&roomID=11     I This uses loosely-coupled duplex or triplex MPUs, with separate memories,iL voting only at bus-synchronized I/O events. This works for our message-basedB OS and transaction workloads, but it won't generalize to Unix etc.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:03:34 +0800k From: prep@prep.synonet.comr Subject: HP to be SAPed again?- Message-ID: <87ekgaxla1.fsf@prep.synonet.com>    From the register.  3 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/d   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:14:50 -0500e# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> " Subject: Re: HP to be SAPed again?, Message-ID: <2e-dnfQHktYgWmjcRVn-vw@igs.net>   prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: > From the register. >-5 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/y    F "Now, one source has revealed that HP will likely have to take anotherI charge - on the order of tens of millions - when it reports first quarterhL earnings. The charge will cover lost inventory - HP simply has no idea where" some of its server hardware went."   ...i  H "Some of these problems stem directly from the top - CEO Carly Fiorina - said the same source.eJ "Carly is very, very aggressive in how she sets her goals, and she doesn'tI like to hear 'no'. I think people try to tell her about the problems, but K you don't get anywhere. That kind of percolates its way down to the rest of ( the company and is sort of a disease." "   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:51:26 -0500k- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>u" Subject: Re: HP to be SAPed again?, Message-ID: <41F5D044.28EB036F@teksavvy.com>   prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: >  > From the register. > 5 > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell//  A I can't understand how a company such as HP was unable to take an6A enterprise server order and transmit this to the shop to have theKE unit(s) assembled as ordered. Digital was able to do that back in thes 1980s , wasn't it ?a  E How come HP waited so long to implement software that could do that ?v   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 04:49:43 GMTt  From: CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net>" Subject: Re: HP to be SAPed again?* Message-ID: <41F5CFE8.8080804@prodigy.net>   JF Mezei wrote:  > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: >  >>From the register. >>5 >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/e >  > C > I can't understand how a company such as HP was unable to take an C > enterprise server order and transmit this to the shop to have the G > unit(s) assembled as ordered. Digital was able to do that back in theo > 1980s , wasn't it ?  > G > How come HP waited so long to implement software that could do that ?t  9 How can they be credible selling such services to others?a   -- tD The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt toC minimize spam.  Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:38:57 +0800y From: prep@prep.synonet.com : Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement- Message-ID: <87sm4qy5v2.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:0  < > I seem to remember reading a report of the research into aC > many-processor concept that carried the 'EV10' label.  The little6E > I've seen about 'project Z' also mentions many cores, if I remember1; > correctly.  Interesting tidbits to possibly tie together.   @ EV10 was being work on at Barcellona, it was an EV8 core plus 16D vector pipes all hooked up to a crosspoint switching connect and big) caches. Aka, Tarantula. HUGE performance.r  E The MPU unit was the EV9. Lots of pretty dumb low power units with an>E interconect. Interesting contrast to `traditional' take no prisoners,>' lock up you power supply Alpha outlook!t   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 25 Jan 2005 00:55:14 -0000@ From: mrtravel is a piece of shit <whatapieceofshit@mrtravel.is>8 Subject: Re: mrtravel's next cruise - to Divorce Court..3 Message-ID: <YS2LF47938377.3716898148@reece.net.au>p  C Gregory Morrow <gregorymorrowODDOGGPLAYSBALL!@earthlink.net> wrote:>   >y# >mrtravel is a piece of shit wrote:n >-F >> Checked you bed lately?  There might be another man there trying toB >> satisfy your wife while you're here 24 hours a day trolling and >> harassing posters.  >  >nM >Yeah, maybe JF...lol.  But he is awfully busy hisself trolling newsgroups...t >a( >Perhaps JF and Mr Travel could hook up!  F Yeah, they'd be perfect for each other.  Just imagine, the two of themE sitting side by side, pounding furiously on their keyboards, crankinguC out those troll posts 24/7 in JF's maman's basement.  Troll heaven.e  F Plus, mrtravel is circumcised, he said so right here a few years back,D so JF doesn't have to worry about that pesky foreskin getting in the way of their lovemaking.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 15:29:56 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSB Message-ID: <1106609396.804582.73470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: >. > > Bill Todd wrote:   [... lots snipped ...]    F > You're feeding Bill.  He thrives on such.  He's also mainly right in thisB > discussion.  Quite feeding him, and save some storage on Google.    @ You're right about my feeding Bill. Responding to his posts is a complete waste of time.l  D I still disagree with some of what he says. I think it is ridiculousB that reducing the VMS base will save it. I think just the oppositeG would happen. It would only give HP an excuse to kill it sooner. It mayeA well be that there is nothing we can do to get HP to promote VMS.lG Still, VMS got better billing in the Web Event than any other HP OS and> I think that is a good thing.a  G OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at leastdC the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outrightn' killed during that period? Just asking.f  F And our argument over JF claiming Ann saying that hp is not interestedB in selling more VMS had degenerated into a failure to communicate.  C I even said that valid criticism is okay. It is the insults and the : hostility that I think are foolish. But that's what he is.  D Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will everD get hp to promote VMS? We should not put ourselves in hp's position,C but instead imagine that we WERE them. It's not the same thing. And A then formulate a strategy that we think might work based on that.t  E I think he is mostly obsessed with punishing the execs that he acuseslF of doing great evils, regardless of the consequences. He'd blow up the9 planet if he could just to punish them. Ok, I exaggerate.,  A I will quit feeding him, and even better, I will quit reading hisgF posts, as they are not worth reading. It's just the same krap over and over.p   Google can take care of itself.n   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 15:35:13 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSB Message-ID: <1106609713.129056.57490@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:e > One more thing:a >tF > Compaq successded in pulling quite a stunt on the customer base with tehpF > murder of Alpha. We were all suspicious of Palmer's true intentions. We2 > had hoped Compaq would be nice to VMS and Alpha. >rG > A strong message must be sent to management that VMS customers do not A > tolerate being played with and require a vendor they can trust.o  " Fine. I have no objection to this.  B > The one reason VMS was not killed in the 2000 timeframe was that@ > Marcello was able to point to some massive discontent from VMS	 customerssG > who would make sure they didn't buy any Compaq gear ever again shouldr- > Compaq go ahead with its plans to kill VMS.i  8 What about the commitment to the U.S. Govt for 15 years?  ? > Despite this, Compaq went ahead with the murder of Alpha, andrE > indicatiosn are that it resulted in dismal performance of VMS sincee then.d >hF > It is in every remaining VMS customer's interest to make damned sureB > that HP know that what it is doing isn't enough to give vMS someE > credibility and stamina in the marketplace and undo the damage froma thenE > Alphacide. It is in every VMS customer's interest to ensure that HPo isB > told in no uncertain terms that HP cannot count on VSM customers> > migrating to HP gear/software from VMS if VMS is not treated	 properly.    Fine. I never said otherwise.t  G > As long as VMS customers act like quiet blind sheep, HP will continuee toD > think that they do not need to marklet VMS and blow some life back intoE > it since they think that they can rescue a sufficient percentage ofu VMSv. > customers and move them to windows or hp-ux.  7 I think there's more to it than that. Maybe a lot more.u  G I still objects to insults and hostility and putting the worst possible G interpretation on someone's words. Interpreting what HP thinks and whatl  Ann said are not the same thing.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 15:56:09 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSB Message-ID: <1106610969.016987.71110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   John Smith wrote:i > AEF wrote: > > C > > If you were hp and you read JF's comments, how would you react?t >  >  > Semi-sarcastically:tD > "Let's kill OpenVMS just because JF is pissed at HP.", because I'm positiveA > that is exactly how senior executives at every company react tot criticism -t > like petulant twerps., >g > G > I think that even the most ardent HP appologists here also think that. there D > is a severe problem with how HP does not advertise and market VMS. Why?A > Because most of us here depend on using VMS to make our living.  > F > Ah ha you say...so why slag HP's [non] advertising/marketing of VMS? >:B > Because not all of us work for organizations where VMS use is so embedded< > that its unthinkable that VMS would be tossed prior to our retirement. ThatA > some of us ISV's and consultants need to have a large, growing,e diverse F > installed base of VMS-using organizations as customers; that not all of usc? > are eligible to even talk to organizations where 'top secret'g clearance isD > required - much less sell them anything or work as consultants for themF > (which further narrows the 'active' customer base); that despite our vastG > knowledge and experience many of us would be painted as 'untrainable'/ orE > 'fossils' when looking for other work if VMS were to disappear from  ourt/ > employers; and probably 28 other reasons too.e >nF > I don't know about you but I only have so many hours in each day forE > working, and I like to make progress in each of those hours. I findo that IF > make better progress by-and-large when my apps are running on VMS or whenE > the consulting work we do is for customers who use VMS. It makes usf look" > like a better value proposition. > E > The ecosystem that springs up around any product eveolves a certainM cachet -G > if you are an aftermarket auto parts manufacturer and you make a high G > quality part but only for Yugo's, the perception of your company will  beE > different than if your company made parts only for BMW's. This is a G > symbiotic thing - both the car manufacturer and the aftermarket parts>E > manufacturer benefit. Each time the car manufacturer advertises and0 each timF > e the parts manufacturer advertises/sets up a booth at a trade show, etc...( > the marketing rubs off on one another. >o? > With HP and VMS it's all a one way street - the ISV's who are4 shoulderingd > all the burden., >> >>& > >And you can't say VMS was not givenB > >good visibility in the chat. In fact, it had top billing, aside >from - > the Integrity servers themselves, of course> >>@ > Of course VMS had good visibility in the chat - a crowd of VMS people,>D > probably mostly participants in c.o.v. dominated the chats. If you had readD > Livermore's scripted presentation transcript (see below) you would not haveC > seen VMS mentioned once. So unless you participated in the chat -y
 which mostG > customer executives who tuned into the webcast would *not* have done,d all 6 > you'd have heard from Ann was HP-UX this and Itanic.  F I admitted that Ann said nothing about VMS. But she said nothing aboutE any other OS either. And while people got stuck in the Carly loop, ifdG some of them would have clicked the New Products link (and that was thedD one I thought would be of most interest mostly out of curiosity, notG with any realistic hopes of seeing much VMS), then they would have seen.D VMS get top billing among all of HP's OSes. Somehow I think that's a8 good thing. Not the best possible thing, but still good.  G Trust me, I really want VMS to succeed in the OS marketplace. I have nohF problem with criticism of hp's lack of promotion of VMS. What I objectF to is the insults and the hostility. I can't believe they would do anyF good. I object to people putting everything that happens re VMS and hp% in the absolute worst possible light.t  A Just how bad are things for those who got "snookered" into buying G Alphas. Are they really in big, big trouble? I agree it was a bad thingbC for HP to have stopped growing Alphas. But it is not the end of the G world for those who have Alphas. They can keep running the Alphas. Theyr> can buy Integritys. OK, they're not the ideal that should haveE happened. OK, maybe they're not as fast as HP claims it is. But don'twG they still benefit greatly simply by still being on VMS instead of sometF inferior OS? Saying no would be saying that VMS isn't that much betterC than the others. Are you going to tell me that Alpha users would be B better off switching to another OS? You want hp to promote VMS yetB Bill, at least, wants to warn people to stay away, hoping for someF polly anna thing to fall from the sky and save the day. You have to beB realistic. And isn't that contradictory? Wanting hp to promote VMS3 while warning against the dire danger of buying it?l  D But it's not the end of the world. Bad, yes, but not the end. VMS isG still here, despite endless dire warnings for well over maybe 10 (or is C it 15) years now. Hopefully that 10-15% growth that was mentioned IrG think by Marcello actually reflects some real growth -- I don't know --IE it is easy to play games with numbers, especially when your statement( is as vague as Marcello's was.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:09:16 -0500q. From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS- Message-ID: <41F5AA4B.944CD0CD@vaxination.ca>l  
 AEF wrote:I > OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at leasteE > the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outrightn) > killed during that period? Just asking.a  E Nop. Compaq committed to support whatever version of VMS and hardware D had been selected by the customer who was willing to pay extra for aG garantee that the stuff will be maintainable for 15 years.  It makes not? commitment to continue to develop VMS or to continue to developyA hardware. Proof: Compq went ahead and cancelled Alpha, and Compaqi$ seriously considered cancelling VMS.  E Think of this as an extended warrantee contract, whereas the standardsC garantee is 5 years after a product is discontinued, this agreement  extends support for 15 years.-        H > And our argument over JF claiming Ann saying that hp is not interestedD > in selling more VMS had degenerated into a failure to communicate.  F The failure to communicate is on HP's part.  HP is either incompetant,: or they are purposefully avoiding communications with VMS.  D Since HP is quite competant at propagating its "Adaptive Enterprise"G thing, so I know that when they want to communicate something, they are	5 perfectly able to do so at every opprtunity they get.   F > Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will ever > get hp to promote VMS?  E This of it as building barriers to prevent the fire from spreading to>E the core of the forest. Digital, Compaq and now HP have taken VMS for 2 granted, using the profits it generates to pay for@ development/advertising of new platforms, at the expense of VMS.  F If there was any slash and burn, it was the owner of VMS cannabalising# VMS for its money and technologies.n  . >We should not put ourselves in hp's position,( > but instead imagine that we WERE them.  E Maximize the potential of your own products which are more profitableo than other people's products.s  G Do you see HP building Printers that use EPSON cartridges ? The printers division is very profitable.  E Do you see HP building 8086 boxes that run Microsoft's product ? Yes,l: and that division is not very profitahle (or loses money).  B HP needs to focus on its own products and stop sacrificing its own% profits to help intel and microsoft. a  E HP needs to learn that the wintel industry is not a religion. It is aeD stupid commodity industry that will be taken over by the chinese and
 japanese etc.n   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 18:10:43 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSC Message-ID: <1106619043.681411.131860@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>t   Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: >l >t= > > I still disagree with some of what he says. I think it isn
 ridiculousF > > that reducing the VMS base will save it. I think just the oppositeG > > would happen. It would only give HP an excuse to kill it sooner. Its mayoE > > well be that there is nothing we can do to get HP to promote VMS. G > > Still, VMS got better billing in the Web Event than any other HP OS  andi! > > I think that is a good thing.n >h >l! > It's good, if it's a beginning.r >a >-E > > OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for ata least G > > the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outrightm+ > > killed during that period? Just asking.m >n >nG > Don't bet on that.  What does the agreement say.  Possibly they couldk keep oneB > support person on staff, but stop working on VMS, get rid of the engineers, and= > stop selling the OS.  I don't know just what the government  commitment means,oE > and really, what does DEC's commitment to the government mean, whens they're out G > of business?  What's the goverment going to do?  Stop buying any moreo systemsk* > might be their only option.  Don't know.  ? OK. That's why I asked. The devil's in the details on this one.p  C > > Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will  ever> > > get hp to promote VMS? We should not put ourselves in hp's	 position, G > > but instead imagine that we WERE them. It's not the same thing. AndoE > > then formulate a strategy that we think might work based on that.y >t >kF > Bill's upset more about the demise of really good technology (Alpha) than anyA > concerns about VMS.  For that matter, I agree with him.  Give ao beancounteroE > enough room, and he just may be able to show how he'd squeeze a bit  more for theD > current quarter if we all went back to the caves.  Better to shove all the C > beancounters into the cave, toss in a nuke with a short fuse, anda seal it up.a  ? Well, I care more about VMS than Alpha. And I don't see how his0B strategy is going to save Alpha anyway. Additionally, I suspect he% might not even care about VMS at all.   . I think he must be angry about something else.9 A drop of honey gathers more flies than a gallon of gall.d   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 18:26:13 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSC Message-ID: <1106619973.423161.198390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>>   Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: >i >yE > > Just how bad are things for those who got "snookered" into buying E > > Alphas. Are they really in big, big trouble? I agree it was a badN thing G > > for HP to have stopped growing Alphas. But it is not the end of the>F > > world for those who have Alphas. They can keep running the Alphas. TheyB > > can buy Integritys. OK, they're not the ideal that should haveC > > happened. OK, maybe they're not as fast as HP claims it is. Bute don't.F > > they still benefit greatly simply by still being on VMS instead of someC > > inferior OS? Saying no would be saying that VMS isn't that much. betterG > > than the others. Are you going to tell me that Alpha users would bewF > > better off switching to another OS? You want hp to promote VMS yetF > > Bill, at least, wants to warn people to stay away, hoping for someG > > polly anna thing to fall from the sky and save the day. You have ton beF > > realistic. And isn't that contradictory? Wanting hp to promote VMS7 > > while warning against the dire danger of buying it?s >e >jD > There is not black and white.  People are all over the spectrum on
 these issues.s > B > As for Alpha.  That decision was as bad as could be.  The people	 making itSB > basically were telling customers (except I doubt they considered customers) "UpF > yours, we don't care about your concerns, we're going to do whatever
 we want to- > do, and we don't care what it does to you."    OK. That is very bad.,  B > You may ask why.  The main reason was the costs they would force customers toE > incur.  For many the cost may not be such a big thing.  Re-compile,h	 link, andm@ > go.  Great.  But what about customers that may have to perform	 extensive E > conformance testing of their entire environment.  The cost of doinge this in someF > cases could be in the millions of dollars.  (You maybe want a glitch
 in the yea= > or ney on the firing off of a salvo of missles with nuclearg warheads?)  NoteG > saying that example is of concern, but it certainly demonstrates thatr someE > environments do require extensive and expensive validation testing.- Think about B > being in a hospital Intensive Care Unit, and the computer system that's helpingE > keep you alive.  Other issues can arise, such as code that does noto work on thep< > itanic without some amount of re-working.  And validation.   OK.c  B > There are additional reasons why the decision was bad.  Lying to customers ranksnE > high on the list.  But enough about the Alpha decision.  My feelingp is that thec  F I've never seen, heard, or read any good advice about how to deal with those who lie.  A > longer Alphas are produced and sold, the better off we all are.c   I'm all for more Alphas.  F > As for the rest.  Time will tell what Intel will do with the itanic. It couldD > still be what they originaly wanted it to be, a good commodity CPU
 used by many. D >   Their track record to date isn't very good.  Add to that the AMD threat, andlG > the itanic just might not be important to Intel.  At least with Alphaa
 the ownersE > of VMS had control of whether CPUs that run VMS would be available.m >eC > Me, I hope it works out.  I don't want to endure the alternative.n  F Thanks for the explanations. But this is odd. Warning people away fromD VMS because of all this reminds me of cutting off your nose to spiteB your face (or whatever the expression is). I mean, suppose HP doesG start promoting VMS. Do we then forget the Alphacide and let people buy A it? Do we continue to warn them not to buy it? If hp *does* starttC promoting VMS, will cov readers cheer or just write negative thingsh@ claiming it's just another trick by hp to be followed by anotherG Alphacide-type event? Of course some will do one and some the other. IfgE hp makes commitments won't they be blasted as lies by Bill and otherssD in the group? How can any of this lead to something positive? Will aA change in leadership really satisfy the naysayers? Leadership hasn@ changed at least twice now and still there is no fully-proactiveA marketing of VMS. Will a new CEO really help? If the new CEO doesaG appear helpful to VMS at first, will the naysayers shut up and wait and  see?  @ Just exactly what is the Alpha situation? Is hp legally bound byB contract with Intel to not make any more Alphas should they changeF their mind? What about Samsung making Alphas? Can we encourage them to do so?   thanks for your answers5   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:27:28 -0500k- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>u@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS, Message-ID: <41F5BC9B.A4B15551@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:A > Well, I care more about VMS than Alpha. And I don't see how hislD > strategy is going to save Alpha anyway. Additionally, I suspect he' > might not even care about VMS at all.S  H Vendor makes two promises. They brag about how Alpha is superior and how> IA64 is a bloated failed project that will never reach Alpha'sG potential. Then, all of a suffen, they decide Alpha is to be killed and H IA64 is going to be the best chip around and that IA64 would have caught up with LApha very quickly./  A Since one doesn't make such a decision overnight, this means thatmG Compaq, as a corporation, was lying to customers. They outright lied to/E the Quebec government who had placed a huge order for Tru64 Alphas to-F replace IBM mainframes just months before the Alphacide. The low levelC employees may not have known that Alpha was already scheduled to begH killed, but as a Corporation, Compaq already had the plans in the works.  0 Compaq promised Alpha was safe. It killed Alpha.A Compaq promised VMS was safe. It seriously considered killing it.eD HP promises to continue the same policies on VMS/Alpha as Compaq had done. HP even killed EV79.  B And you expect me to have faith that HP still cares about VMS evenE though it doesn't bother including VMS as a core strategic product inaH its marketing, even though it hasn't integrated VMS's niche applciationsM into its web site (vertical industries sections such as telecom, medical etc)t  B Trust is earned. HP should be fully aware that customers have beenD screwed over and over again and don't have much trust. HP could haveD taken simple steps on may 7th 2002 to start to build trust, but theyH instead released Stallard's memo, which was later edited without mention0 to reduce the negative impact of HP's statement.  E The launch of VMS on IA64 wa the perfect opportunity for hP to send aMG strong signal that this was more than just another version of VMS, thatyD it meant that VMS was going to be seriously promoted from now on andF that it was "under new management" with HP having taken full ownershipH of the product and having all intentions to fully leverage its potentialC and gicve it back some of the enterprise visibility and gowth it is/ capable of.o  H When you launch a new product, (which for HP, VMS is a new product), youD don't start by stating that it is hard to gain new customers and areC happy with a small installed base). You should start by sating your F would allow VMS to agressively pursue any and all possible markets andH foster its growth. (even if internally you think growth of a proprietary3 OS is limited, you never ever say this publically).l   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 19:36:22 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSB Message-ID: <1106624182.250246.29300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:C > > Well, I care more about VMS than Alpha. And I don't see how hislF > > strategy is going to save Alpha anyway. Additionally, I suspect he) > > might not even care about VMS at all.e >nF > Vendor makes two promises. They brag about how Alpha is superior and howi@ > IA64 is a bloated failed project that will never reach Alpha'sE > potential. Then, all of a suffen, they decide Alpha is to be killede andaC > IA64 is going to be the best chip around and that IA64 would haver caught > up with LApha very quickly.h > C > Since one doesn't make such a decision overnight, this means thatlF > Compaq, as a corporation, was lying to customers. They outright lied toG > the Quebec government who had placed a huge order for Tru64 Alphas todB > replace IBM mainframes just months before the Alphacide. The low leveliE > employees may not have known that Alpha was already scheduled to berC > killed, but as a Corporation, Compaq already had the plans in then works. > 2 > Compaq promised Alpha was safe. It killed Alpha.C > Compaq promised VMS was safe. It seriously considered killing it.hF > HP promises to continue the same policies on VMS/Alpha as Compaq had > done. HP even killed EV79. >yD > And you expect me to have faith that HP still cares about VMS evenG > though it doesn't bother including VMS as a core strategic product inr= > its marketing, even though it hasn't integrated VMS's nicheM applciationsB > into its web site (vertical industries sections such as telecom, medical etc)   No, and I never said I so.  D > Trust is earned. HP should be fully aware that customers have beenF > screwed over and over again and don't have much trust. HP could haveF > taken simple steps on may 7th 2002 to start to build trust, but theyB > instead released Stallard's memo, which was later edited without mentione2 > to reduce the negative impact of HP's statement. >SG > The launch of VMS on IA64 wa the perfect opportunity for hP to send akD > strong signal that this was more than just another version of VMS, thatF > it meant that VMS was going to be seriously promoted from now on and> > that it was "under new management" with HP having taken full	 ownershipn@ > of the product and having all intentions to fully leverage its	 potentialrE > and gicve it back some of the enterprise visibility and gowth it iso
 > capable of.    OK.   F > When you launch a new product, (which for HP, VMS is a new product), yougF > don't start by stating that it is hard to gain new customers and are  G OK, it's not the best thing to say, but I don't think it's quite as badI! as you do. We differ on this. OK.s  E > happy with a small installed base). You should start by sating yourl  F Here I still disagree. She did not say that. I guess we'll continue to@ disagree on this point. She said most sales were to existing VMSD customers so that implies that some sales were to new customers. And0 just what made these new customers purchase VMS?  D > would allow VMS to agressively pursue any and all possible markets and > > foster its growth. (even if internally you think growth of a proprietaryc5 > OS is limited, you never ever say this publically).t  E Yes, that would be the ideal. But even then I bet we would still hear G complaints about it. I never said "Relax, VMS is safe." I just said the3< Web event wasn't as bad as you and others made it out to be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:56:00 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> @ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS, Message-ID: <41F5C349.B0D1F132@teksavvy.com>  
 AEF wrote:D > your face (or whatever the expression is). I mean, suppose HP doesI > start promoting VMS. Do we then forget the Alphacide and let people buyt1 > it? Do we continue to warn them not to buy it? t    F It isn't a question of warning people not to buy VMS. It is a questionH of warning people that HP can't be trusted. There is quite a difference.    H In terms of "what if HP starts to market VMS ?", ther is a simple answer to this:  E Ever since Palmer days, the cycle has been simple: let VMS slide into H oblivion until complaints from customers/cov rose to a certain loudness,= at which point, you do a token piece of marketing to stop thetC complaints, and later revert to the previous policy of actively noto- mentioning VMS, until the cycle begins again.r  F This has happened often enough that a single piece such as last week'sA so called "web event" can't be viewed as a sign that HP is reallyrG changing the way it is handling VMS from now on. Only time will tell if B there is to be a real and permanent change in HP attitudes on VMS.  E HP used to have the excuse that they didn't want to grow VMS on AlphaeG since Alpha was dead. They no longer have any excuses NOT to market VMS $ now that it runs on that IA64 thing.    C Go back to 2000 during the short lived renaissance, and you'll findlD plenty of positive posts about the stuff Marcello was doing for VMS,B including PUBLIC POSTERS in bus stops in a european country (can'tH remember which). But alas, even this didn't l;ast more than a few monthsH and then witherede away, and it took a while before people realised thatF VMS was back to "no markleting allowed" mode in Compaq. Shortly after, Alpha was being killed.g   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 20:00:11 -0800$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>@ Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMSC Message-ID: <1106625611.710038.213090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>h   JF Mezei wrote:  > AEF wrote:E > > OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at  leastvG > > the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outright + > > killed during that period? Just asking.l >rG > Nop. Compaq committed to support whatever version of VMS and hardware F > had been selected by the customer who was willing to pay extra for aF > garantee that the stuff will be maintainable for 15 years.  It makes noA > commitment to continue to develop VMS or to continue to develophC > hardware. Proof: Compq went ahead and cancelled Alpha, and Compaq-& > seriously considered cancelling VMS. >kG > Think of this as an extended warrantee contract, whereas the standardAE > garantee is 5 years after a product is discontinued, this agreementy > extends support for 15 years.r   OK. Thanks for the info!  ? > > And our argument over JF claiming Ann saying that hp is nota
 interestedF > > in selling more VMS had degenerated into a failure to communicate. >o; > The failure to communicate is on HP's part.  HP is either  incompetant,< > or they are purposefully avoiding communications with VMS. > F > Since HP is quite competant at propagating its "Adaptive Enterprise"E > thing, so I know that when they want to communicate something, they@ areg7 > perfectly able to do so at every opprtunity they get.4 >CC > > Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will  ever > > get hp to promote VMS? > G > This of it as building barriers to prevent the fire from spreading to G > the core of the forest. Digital, Compaq and now HP have taken VMS fors4 > granted, using the profits it generates to pay forB > development/advertising of new platforms, at the expense of VMS. >h: > If there was any slash and burn, it was the owner of VMS
 cannabalisingo% > VMS for its money and technologies.  >y0 > >We should not put ourselves in hp's position,* > > but instead imagine that we WERE them. >sG > Maximize the potential of your own products which are more profitabler > than other people's products.-  B That's oversimplfying it. Don't forget the difference I mentioned.   Example:  A A chemist wrote reports to a vice president including unnecessaryeD details oh his research. the VP was not interested in these details.F The chemist said, "But I was just putting myself in the VP's place. IfF I were him, I would want all those details". But when it was suggestedF to the chemist to "Forget yourself and *become* your reader". Then theE chemist said, "Well, if I were the VP without any scientific trainingeD and interested only in results and using them for company decisions,G why then I have to cut out these details. But that's not putting myselfg in the reader's place."   F Do you see the difference? If you or I were in Carly's place, we wouldE of course begin immediate promotion of VMS and if possible, resurrectt> the Alpha line, and do whatever is possible to make up for theD Alphacide of 2001. But you have to work with the execs you have, notG the ones you would like to have! :-) Not that any of this will be easy!   B And even if Carly is replaced, what are the odds that someone moreF receptive to our cause will replace her? Could get better or could get worse.  E The Web event could have been much worse. They could have avoided any-4 mention of VMS at all. At least they didn't do that!  A > Do you see HP building Printers that use EPSON cartridges ? The  printerR > division is very profitable.  ( No. But I haven't kept up with printers.  G > Do you see HP building 8086 boxes that run Microsoft's product ? Yes,a< > and that division is not very profitahle (or loses money). > D > HP needs to focus on its own products and stop sacrificing its own& > profits to help intel and microsoft. >eG > HP needs to learn that the wintel industry is not a religion. It is aeF > stupid commodity industry that will be taken over by the chinese and > japanese etc.r  E I don't think insults will achieve this very worthy goal. RockefellermF was the most hated man in America and one of his companies's employeesG went on strike. There was violence. Bullets were fired. How did it end?nE Rockefeller went to many of the strikers' homes and talked with them,eD letting them express their concerns. Then he gave a moving speech toF the workers and won them over. Not that such a task is easy. But thereD are many stories like this. Look at how much greater success you and8 Dave Froble are having discussing with me than Mr. Todd!   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:09:25 -0500l, From: "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com>* Subject: Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page?, Message-ID: <41f572cf$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>  > The 82 docs are being worked. I expect this week or next week.  L as has been said the 82 ft docs are out there and i've heard not a whole lot isJ changing. yes there will be more docs. some like c, c++ are out already on thew c and c++ areas.    8 "Ryan Moore" <rmoore@rmoore.dyndns.org> wrote in message6 news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0501220041100.15550@jaipur.local...K > Now that 8.2 has been 'officially' released, any chance the 8.2 docs williK > be posted to the web page?  We haven't received our doc updates yet and I G > would like to see the final release notes and new features manuals ata > least. >'	 > Thanks.t >t > -Ryan    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:51:33 +0000 (UTC) 3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com>J* Subject: Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page?0 Message-ID: <ct4q9k$g4i$1@sparta.btinternet.com>   Hi,r  $ >some like c, c++ are out already on > thec > c and c++ areas.  / No there's a surprise :-( Two-speed VMS anyone?   & We get treated like Oracle treats VMS.   Regards Richard Maher   7 "warren sander" <warren.sander@hp.com> wrote in messagew& news:41f572cf$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...@ > The 82 docs are being worked. I expect this week or next week. >EJ > as has been said the 82 ft docs are out there and i've heard not a whole loti > isL > changing. yes there will be more docs. some like c, c++ are out already on > thea > c and c++ areas. >e >s: > "Ryan Moore" <rmoore@rmoore.dyndns.org> wrote in message8 > news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0501220041100.15550@jaipur.local...H > > Now that 8.2 has been 'officially' released, any chance the 8.2 docs willK > > be posted to the web page?  We haven't received our doc updates yet andt I I > > would like to see the final release notes and new features manuals at3
 > > least. > >  > > Thanks.n > >@	 > > -Ryan  >j >:   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:30:37 -05006( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: RFA string format= Message-ID: <ysednQ41mMxF0WjcRVn-hg@metrocastcablevision.com>t   John Laird wrote:    ...e  I > Having long-word VBNs is (aiui) the primary restriction on file size (4eH > billion blocks = 2 terabytes), and changing that would be a huge task,N > especially if some backwards compatibility would be maintained.  There seems& > little point updating the RFA first.  H The point of updating the RFA would have been to do so at the same time H the rest of the RMS interface was extended to 64 bits, rather than as a A potentially additionally-disruptive add-on later (assuming there yI actually is a 'later').  RMS was designed at a time when 2 TB files were pF unimaginably large, but it supported them and that support eventually I became first useful and finally now a bit confining (compared with other  I more modern file systems).  Looking similarly ahead when the rest of the nI interface was extended to 64 bits would have been wise, since everything uH else (at least that below RMS) could then have been handled beneath the , covers if/when it became necessary to do so.  '    It might be easier to have a new ODSI > for enormous files.m  E While on-disk structure changes are pretty much required (unless you PH want to handle the whole thing in RAID software that cobbles multiple 2 D TB entities together in an array like a linear volume set which can I externally be addressed as something larger), perhaps you were referring oC to the software between RMS and the driver level.  I find it a bit kF difficult to believe that extending that existing software to address H larger devices in a reasonably backward-compatible manner (e.g., at the C QIO interface) would be anything like as difficult as creating new iG software from scratch which still would need the same kind of backward oF compatibility to allow use of most of the necessary utility functions D that operate on and cooperate with the existing file system, though 5 don't doubt that it would take a fair amount of work.u   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:48:43 -05006- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>  Subject: Re: RFA string format, Message-ID: <41F55117.BAE5BBA7@teksavvy.com>   Jan van der Weijde wrote:tJ >     does anyone have experience with the way an OpenVMS RMS table Record1 > File Address (RFA) is represented as a string ?c    E On ALLIN1, it is/was represented as something like %#17000000100  (12p$ digits, leading zeros NOT supressed)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:21:18 -0500a' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>r Subject: Re: RFA string format, Message-ID: <41F566CE.4010105@tsoft-inc.com>   Jan van der Weijde wrote:    > Hello, > J >     does anyone have experience with the way an OpenVMS RMS table Record1 > File Address (RFA) is represented as a string ?d. > Internally it is a three byte integer value.L > On the internet I only found the string representation RFA(0001,0000,0000)# > (e.g. output of dump/rec <file>).n4 > Is this a format OpenVMS users are familiar with ? > 	 > Thanks,f > Jan  >  >  >   L I've read this thread, and after all the responses, I'm still not sure what N you're asking.  As a simple 30 second excercise in BASIC, the following shows P what's in a RFA.  The RFA is a numeric value.  Not sure what you're asking with O respect to "STRING".  Also note, as posted by others, it's a 6 byte structure, f) comprised of 3 unsigned words, not bytes.    NONAME    24-JAN-2005 16:05l    1       map (F) string Field1=16             map (A) RFA RFA_REC_NUM$          map (A) string RFA_STRING=6           map (A) word R1, R2, R3  ?          open "Temp.tmp" for output as file 1%, relative, map F-            put #1%!          rfa_rec_num = getrfa(1%)o          print r1; r2; r3c  !          put #1%, record "65537"Lo!          rfa_rec_num = getrfa(1%)o          print r1; r2; r3t            close 1%y          kill "Temp.tmp"   Readyt   runf NONAME    24-JAN-2005 16:05p  	   1  0  0u	   1  1  0  Readyh  M As can be seen, the least significant word is in the first 2 bytes, with the e* most significant word in the last 2 bytes.   Was this your question?    Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:57:57 -0500a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>a Subject: Re: RFA string format, Message-ID: <41F56F5A.9FE02E5D@teksavvy.com>   JF Mezei wrote: G > On ALLIN1, it is/was represented as something like %#17000000100  (12t& > digits, leading zeros NOT supressed)  D Additional note: the 12 digits are hexadecimal. So 6 bytes. I assumeE that whenever Allin1 sees a record key that begins with %# it assumeslP the string is an RFA and acesses the record thorugh RFA instead of keyed access.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:01:26 -0500y( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: RFA string format= Message-ID: <YrGdnSqy54-t7WjcRVn-3g@metrocastcablevision.com>d   Dave Froble wrote:   ...n  K > As can be seen, the least significant word is in the first 2 bytes, with u0 > the most significant word in the last 2 bytes.  F Unless the definition of what an RFA is has changed from the original H design, there are no 'most significant' or 'least significant' parts to H it:  it is an opaque 6-byte value which RMS provides to the application H which the application can then return to RMS as a record identifier for I the record in question (though in the case of indexed files only as long aB as the original file has not been reorganized, and in the case of @ sequential files only as long as the original file has not been H truncated to a location preceding that record and then repopulated past G the previous record's location; with relative files, any record in the i. same single-record 'slot' qualifies as a hit).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:27:56 +0000 - From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>e Subject: Re: RFA string format8 Message-ID: <qj0bv0516j594edp0otod1678a3b5u3cbk@4ax.com>  F On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:30:37 -0500, Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:  I >The point of updating the RFA would have been to do so at the same time sI >the rest of the RMS interface was extended to 64 bits, rather than as a gB >potentially additionally-disruptive add-on later (assuming there  >actually is a 'later').  J I'm sure you probably know a lot more about this than I do, but the 64-bitJ changes were all related to locating user and RMS buffers in 64-bit space,I and permitting large data transfers.  While I can appreciate the logic inyI perhaps seizing the opportunity to look ahead to much larger disk volumestI than prevailed at the time, I suspect the parallel need to also amend alleL VBNs to something >4 bytes would have resulted in changes being required allE over VMS.  You might also expect to have to consider record "numbers"iH outside 32-bit range as well, which would knock on into any utility thatG processed files as records.  The 64-bit access changes only impacted on G those apps that were modified to use them (although I seem to recall we I found a bug in our build software resulting from some dodgy use of an RMS  structure).c  I Further to a related post, the 6 bytes represent, I believe, a little bitsK more than just a byte offset.  I don't think the full 48 bits are therefore.H available for use.  (I'd not be surprised if the RVN isn't in there, for	 example.)F   -- <3 Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. R   Mail john rather than nospam...O   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:25:49 +0000H- From: John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk>. Subject: Re: RFA string format8 Message-ID: <je4bv0ljrppt7d22nprpps74668jppprqv@4ax.com>  J On 24 Jan 2005 16:18:04 -0700, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:  : >In article <qj0bv0516j594edp0otod1678a3b5u3cbk@4ax.com>, 4 >    John Laird <nospam@laird-towers.org.uk> writes: >  >> tL >> Further to a related post, the 6 bytes represent, I believe, a little bitN >> more than just a byte offset.  I don't think the full 48 bits are thereforeK >> available for use.  (I'd not be surprised if the RVN isn't in there, forf >> example.) >> dK >    I don't understand why relative volume number would be part of the RMSc? >RFA. Relative volume number is a construct at the ODS-2 level.-  K A guess might be locking, but I'll admit I didn't really think that throught  to see how sensible it might be.   --  6 Secrecy at my job prevents me from knowing what I do.    Mail john rather than nospam...    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:40:45 -0500 ' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>g Subject: Re: RFA string format, Message-ID: <41F5A39D.3030607@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Todd wrote:   > Dave Froble wrote: >  > ...y > G >> As can be seen, the least significant word is in the first 2 bytes,  6 >> with the most significant word in the last 2 bytes. >  > H > Unless the definition of what an RFA is has changed from the original J > design, there are no 'most significant' or 'least significant' parts to J > it:  it is an opaque 6-byte value which RMS provides to the application J > which the application can then return to RMS as a record identifier for K > the record in question (though in the case of indexed files only as long oD > as the original file has not been reorganized, and in the case of B > sequential files only as long as the original file has not been J > truncated to a location preceding that record and then repopulated past I > the previous record's location; with relative files, any record in the u0 > same single-record 'slot' qualifies as a hit). >  > - bill  Q I've used RFA very infrequently.  I'd assumed that it was just a 48 bit unsigned i" integer.  No real reason to do so.  4 Is there a definition of the RFA available anywhere?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:43:13 -0500c' From: Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: RFA string format, Message-ID: <41F5A431.6050208@tsoft-inc.com>   Alan Frisbie wrote:8   > Bill Todd wrote: > I >> Unless the definition of what an RFA is has changed from the original eH >> design, there are no 'most significant' or 'least significant' parts B >> to it:  it is an opaque 6-byte value which RMS provides to the H >> application which the application can then return to RMS as a record H >> identifier for the record in question (though in the case of indexed I >> files only as long as the original file has not been reorganized, and tI >> in the case of sequential files only as long as the original file has tC >> not been truncated to a location preceding that record and then  I >> repopulated past the previous record's location; with relative files,  C >> any record in the same single-record 'slot' qualifies as a hit).a >  > H > This applies to RMS-11, but I'm pretty sure it also applies to RMS-32.G > While the RFA is never actually defined anywhere (that I could find),a# > it is fairly easy to deduce that:s > 6 >   RFA Word 1 = 1st word of VBN of bucket holding RRV+ >   RFA Word 2 = Record ID of RRV in bucket,6 >   RFA Word 3 = 2nd word of VBN of bucket holding RRV > @ > It is interesting to note that even using RFA access, RMS must? > still search through the relevant bucket sequentially to find  > the requested record.g >  > Alan >   O That deduction doesn't seem to fit with the simple example I posted.  How RFAs wK are constructed for Indexed and variable length records very well could be lO different than for a relative file, where it just appears to be a record index.W   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:54:38 -0500E. From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> Subject: Re: RFA string format- Message-ID: <41F5A6DD.29D69A64@vaxination.ca>u  	 Question:u  E For  database systems such as Oracle or RDB, how do they access theirtE data inside their database files ?  Aren't those considered to be rawu data container files by RMS ?  t  H Do these database applications make use of RFAs at all ? Or do they workJ only with raw byte offsets, or just relative block numbers inside a file ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:10:33 -0500r( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: RFA string format= Message-ID: <HoWdnaR3vOwJN2jcRVn-1A@metrocastcablevision.com>    Malcolm Dunnett wrote:   ...m  M >    In that case I don't understand all the fuss about 2TB file size limits.l > J >    Using the "classic" implementation of an RFA ( where two words, or 32M > bits, are used for the "block number" of the record ) I can see the limit -iM > but if one simply treats it as an opaque 6 byte (48 bit) value then you canoI > represent any file offset up to 281,474,976,710,655 ( ie a file of overbJ > 281TB if one uses the "decimal" definition of a TB ). Is that sufficientL > for the immediate future? sure, adding the extra 2 bytes discussed earlierG > could have comfortably pushed the theoretical limit into the petabyteh$ > range, but let's not be greedy :-) > I >    If we've all truly treated it as an opaque value then no applicationsI > programs need be changed in order to change the way RMS internally uses 
 > the RFA.  G Save for the small matter of applications which are using the existing oG format and expect new versions of RMS to honor it as long as the files   involved haven't changed..  G There is in fact some maneuvering room - unless RMS-32 implemented the iH 16-bit RRV ID option they were considering a couple of decades ago (RRV ? IDs run out fairly quickly in index-file data buckets in heavy iH delete/reinsert situations, and requiring frequent file reorganizations I has never been popular, leaving aside the fact that such reorganizations  F invalidate existing RFAs anyway).  As you note, in sequential files 7 D bits remain available (one of which would need to be used as a 'new D format' flag to allow old-style RFAs to continue to be honored), in G indexed files (at least if RRV IDs are still limited to 8 bits) 8 bits  E (minus the new-format flag) are available, and in relative files the  = entire 16 bits may be available (I vaguely remember that the sH relative-file RRV was just the 32-bit relative record number, though my & memory could be playing tricks on me).  E Then again, the mention of the RVN rang a faint bell.  It's possible iG that the 'extra' byte in the RFA was drafted because the interface had oE forgotten to include it elsewhere (you only needed 8 bits to specify .F offset-within-VBN for sequential files originally, since records were E required to start on 16-bit boundaries - though whether that changed oG with the advent of additional stream file formats I can't recall), but xF this oversight may have been corrected before RMS-32 got out the door.  H  From other responses here, it appears that I was incorrect in assuming F that things like the VBN and LBN fields used in RMS's allocation XABs ? and block I/O mechanisms had been extended to 64 bits when VMS cD purportedly became a full-fledged 64-bit OS on Alpha, in which case I there's no reason why the RFA field should have been extended by itself. dI   But it does mean that VMS just has that much more work to do before it gH can address > 2 TB files (and devices), and the time isn't far off when F that limitation will start to be a significant constraint (though the C reckoning can be put off at least for a while by application-level  B kludges similar to those employed to support aggregate file sizes . greater than 2 or 4 GB in other environments).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:01:14 +0000 7 From: David B Sneddon - bigpond <dbsneddon@bigpond.com>t Subject: Re: RFA string format* Message-ID: <41F5A86A.4010205@bigpond.com>   JF Mezei mentioned in passing: > Question:n > G > For  database systems such as Oracle or RDB, how do they access theiroG > data inside their database files ?  Aren't those considered to be rawa! > data container files by RMS ?  e > J > Do these database applications make use of RFAs at all ? Or do they workL > only with raw byte offsets, or just relative block numbers inside a file ? >   9 As far as I know, Oracle and RDB do not use RMS thereforeu they would not use RFAs.     Regards, Dave -- IB David B Sneddon (dbs) VMS Systems Programmer dbsneddon@bigpond.comB Sneddo's quick guide ...   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/B DBS freeware   http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:46:05 -0600s2 From: David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net>" Subject: Re: TCP/IP on OpenVMS 7.3+ Message-ID: <41F5A4DD.9FB64475@comcast.net>a   Hunter Goatley wrote:  >  > David J Dachtera wrote:s > >tG > > There seems to be a known problem this year with PSC's hobbyist PAK K > > generator rejecting valid checksums. I did receive a valid Multinet PAK I > > separately, however (many thanx to the one who intervened (Hunter?)).e > >  > F > Actually, the problem is at Montagar.  We send the VMS PAK checksumsJ > to Montagar for verification, but David has had (and apparently is stillG > having) database problems that are causing the checksums to rejected.eC > I've been generating PAKs after-the-fact when there are problems.e   Thanx for your help!   -- a David J Dachtera dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ) Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page::" http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d  " Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/e   Coming soon:& Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jan 2005 13:42:14 -0800" From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com+ Subject: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? C Message-ID: <1106602934.353373.156750@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>a  F On one of my clusters (3 GS140's (A/S 8400's),(running OVMS 7.2-1, andE TCPIP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.1, ECO4), I have a problem whichc looks like file corruption.t  F When the a system boots and runs TCPIP$STARTUP, I get a Register Dump.B When I look at TCPIP, everything looks OK except the NAME Service.F "$ tcpip show name " shows all fields empty.    however when I type "$8 tcpip show config name", all the information is correct.  C My current response to this is to run TCPIP$CONFIG, Select Option 5 > (shutdown TCPIP Services), followed by Option 6 (Startup TCPIP
 Services).  D After doing this, the Name Service show all fields correctly, except. the Domain Paths, which I then enter manually.   TCPIP is now OK.  F The problem with this is that I have to intervene manually every boot.0 I would like to correct the problem if possible.  G The only thing I can think of is to delete the TCPIP$CONFIGURATION filetD and reconfigure from scratch, however I really don't want to have to reconfigure EVERYTHING.c  D I noticed that when TCPIP$CONFIG starts, it checks for configuration= files.    Question, If I delete TCPIP$CONFIGURATION.dat, willo2 TCPIP$CONFIG recreate it from the running system??  C Other than this, does anyone have any ideas about how I can resolvep
 this problem.t   Dave.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:31:47 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>v/ Subject: Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? , Message-ID: <41F57746.E508BA8C@teksavvy.com>  # dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote:hH > When the a system boots and runs TCPIP$STARTUP, I get a Register Dump.D > When I look at TCPIP, everything looks OK except the NAME Service.H > "$ tcpip show name " shows all fields empty.    however when I type "$: > tcpip show config name", all the information is correct.  % What happens if you TCPIP SHOW HOST ?e  H Are you able to TCPIP SET HOST chocolate/address=10.0.0.1 for instance ?  = At the TCPIP> prompt, have you tried SET NAME/ENABLE/SYSTEM ?m  H You may wish to do a SET WATCH FILE/CLASS=DIR to find out which files it! tries to access prior to bombing.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:15:22 -0800n From: JBloggs@acme.com/ Subject: Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files??N8 Message-ID: <lh3bv01lrbfa80an0btg7fc4u0e6176eel@4ax.com>  B On 24 Jan 2005 13:42:14 -0800, dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote:  H >The only thing I can think of is to delete the TCPIP$CONFIGURATION fileE >and reconfigure from scratch, however I really don't want to have ton >reconfigure EVERYTHING.   Yuck.v  E >I noticed that when TCPIP$CONFIG starts, it checks for configurationo> >files.    Question, If I delete TCPIP$CONFIGURATION.dat, will3 >TCPIP$CONFIG recreate it from the running system??e   in my experience, no.d  3 it would be nice, if this file was broken out into b similar, but smaller files.a  D >Other than this, does anyone have any ideas about how I can resolve >this problem.  / perhaps, right before you do the next shutdown,p# try the following (edit to taste). s  - Some of the following lines will show errors;r  ; that's in part (or mostly/all) because my own understandingc2 of when "TCPIP SET [config] NO<mumble>" is needed , (or allowed/disallowed) is somewhat muddled.    
 $ Set NoON $!+ $ tcpip set         comm /domain="Acme.Com"o+ $ tcpip set config  comm /domain="Acme.Com"  $!3 $ tcpip set         name_service /domain="Acme.Com"l; $ tcpip set         name_service /domain="Acme.Com" /system 3 $ tcpip set config  name_service /domain="Acme.Com"c $!, $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=*5 $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=*  /systemH. $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=NS17 $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=NS1 /system  . $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=NS27 $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=NS2 /system  7 $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 ? $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 /systemw7 $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2i? $ tcpip set         name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2 /systemo $!, $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=*5 $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=*  /systemt. $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=NS17 $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=NS1 /system  . $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=NS27 $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=NS2 /system n7 $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1u? $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 /system"7 $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2a? $ tcpip set config  name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2 /system  $!4 $ tcpip set         name_service /server=(127.0.0.1). $ tcpip set         name_service /server=(NS1). $ tcpip set         name_service /server=(NS2) $!4 $ tcpip set config  name_service /server=(127.0.0.1). $ tcpip set config  name_service /server=(NS1). $ tcpip set config  name_service /server=(NS2) $!< $ tcpip set         name_service /server=(127.0.0.1) /system6 $ tcpip set         name_service /server=(NS1) /system6 $ tcpip set         name_service /server=(NS2) /system $!< $ tcpip set config  name_service /server=(127.0.0.1) /system6 $ tcpip set config  name_service /server=(NS1) /system6 $ tcpip set config  name_service /server=(NS2) /system $!* $ tcpip set         name_service /nopath=*2 $ tcpip set         name_service /nopath=* /system $!5 $ tcpip set         name_service /nopath=("Acme.Com") = $ tcpip set         name_service /nopath=("Acme.Com") /systemb5 $ tcpip set config  name_service /nopath=("Acme.Com")e $!3 $ tcpip set         name_service /path=("Acme.Com")r= $ tcpip set         name_service /path=("Acme.Com")   /systema3 $ tcpip set config  name_service /path=("Acme.Com")- $!   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.049 ************************