1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 07 Jul 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 376       Contents:0 Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs STARLET0 Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs STARLET0 Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs STARLET Re: Date to quadword in DCL????  Re: Date to quadword in DCL????  Decnet Plus on a PBXDP-AA  Re: Decnet Plus on a PBXDP-AA ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results 7 IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results ; Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results  Keep that stiff upper lip  Re: Keep that stiff upper lip  Re: Keep that stiff upper lip ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) 5 Re: Network card problems? Or something like that.... 5 Re: Network card problems? Or something like that.... @ Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks Re: ntp not synchronising  Re: ntp not synchronising - OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work. 1 Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work. 1 Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work. 1 Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work. 1 Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work. 1 Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work. ) Re: Performance issue after 7.3-2 upgrade ) Re: Performance issue after 7.3-2 upgrade ) Re: Performance issue after 7.3-2 upgrade  POP Server problem with headers $ Re: The VMS Gateway FAQ is available5 UK folks can you send me email so I know you are safe 9 Re: UK folks can you send me email so I know you are safe 9 Re: UK folks can you send me email so I know you are safe ' Re: VAX software available for download ' Re: VAX software available for download   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:36:58 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com 9 Subject: Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs STARLET - Message-ID: <87ekabalad.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   5 hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) writes:   - > Additions to three libraries ARE supported:   4 >     STARLET.OLB -- IMAGELIB.OLB -- and HELPLIB.HLB  F SO how are you meant to link/compile to additions to the .OLBs withoutF putting their interface definition into STARLET? As SDL I hope. If youE add a foo.olb to sys$share, everone owuld expect a foo.[c,mlb,req...] B to go with it, so shold not the same happen with STARLET/IMAGELIB?   > and also to DCLTABLES.EXE.  B > Supporting changes in other libaries is *NOT* simply a matter ofE > "just merging updates".  Even with these libraries it is an ongoing D > issue to ensure that user/3rd-party/LP changes are compatible withC > OpenVMS and that they remain compatible when OpenVMS is upgraded.   F > If you are aware of the {ahem} "infamous" problem of "duplicate keysA > in STARLTE.OLB" that may give you a hint of just how bad things  > could get.  F > SOoo... If you have a real business problem that cannot be addressedE > with the existing way things are, please make your case and it will F > be considered.  However, please realize that you will most liekly be+ > directed to existing, documented methods.   A Does the facility registration still exist? Or has it also become  `efficient'?   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 06:40:01 +0000 (UTC)3 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> 9 Subject: Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs STARLET ? Message-ID: <daiio1$rma$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>    Hi Paul,  C > Does the facility registration still exist? Or has it also become  > `efficient'?  I I had a lot of trouble tracking down who "owned" it five years ago. Don't  know what it would be like now?   G The only place I've seen reference to it is in the Developer's Guide to K VMSINSTAL. And you know where The Powers That Be have stuck that :-( It may J very well be in th PCSI documentation, but as I'll never have any possible9 reason for "abandoning all hope" I guess I'll never know.    Regards Richard Maher   ( <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message' news:87ekabalad.fsf@prep.synonet.com... 7 > hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) writes:  > / > > Additions to three libraries ARE supported:  > 6 > >     STARLET.OLB -- IMAGELIB.OLB -- and HELPLIB.HLB > H > SO how are you meant to link/compile to additions to the .OLBs withoutH > putting their interface definition into STARLET? As SDL I hope. If youG > add a foo.olb to sys$share, everone owuld expect a foo.[c,mlb,req...] D > to go with it, so shold not the same happen with STARLET/IMAGELIB? >  > > and also to DCLTABLES.EXE. > D > > Supporting changes in other libaries is *NOT* simply a matter ofG > > "just merging updates".  Even with these libraries it is an ongoing F > > issue to ensure that user/3rd-party/LP changes are compatible withE > > OpenVMS and that they remain compatible when OpenVMS is upgraded.  > H > > If you are aware of the {ahem} "infamous" problem of "duplicate keysC > > in STARLTE.OLB" that may give you a hint of just how bad things  > > could get. > H > > SOoo... If you have a real business problem that cannot be addressedG > > with the existing way things are, please make your case and it will H > > be considered.  However, please realize that you will most liekly be- > > directed to existing, documented methods.  > C > Does the facility registration still exist? Or has it also become  > `efficient'? >  > --  > > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. B >                                              West Australia 6076, > comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot0 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 06:45:43 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 9 Subject: Re: A tale of two macro libraries LIB vs STARLET ( Message-ID: <opstjpuhd6zgicya@hyrrokkin>  4 On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:00:50 GMT, Robert Deininger  % <rdeininger@mindspringdot.com> wrote:   5 > In article <81rnFLaMIZAs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . > koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org wrote: > K >> In article <opstf2pycgzgicya@hyrrokkin>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   
 >> writes: >>> H >>> Aren't all the STARLET libs derived from the underlying SDL sources? >>F >>   I'm under the impression (reading through the cracks) the SDL was
 >>   abandon.  > 8 > SDL is used in every VMS build on all 3 architectures. Ditto for PL/I   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:48:44 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com ( Subject: Re: Date to quadword in DCL????- Message-ID: <87ackzakqr.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   4 David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:   > "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote:   . >> On 5 Jul 2005 at 10:45, derek pietro wrote:F >> > Can someone point me to a doc that describes $bintim or somethingE >> > else that would take a (properly) formatted date/time string and   >> > convert it to its quadword? > ? >> You're looking for the "HP OpenVMS System Services Reference D >> Manual", which is hidden under "Systems Documentation" on the web@ >> site.  And the $BINTIM function is hidden under "SYS$BINTIM":   J >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82FINAL/4527/4527pro_012.html#index_x_103    >> (pardon the wrap)  A > Of course, calling OpenVMS System Services from DCL is rather a  > challenge...  E > Based on Derek's post, it seems he could use the technique cited in B > a Google URL in another post, just needing to convert the resultE > back to a string, possibly with F$FAO() to ensure the proper target 	 > format.    > Thinking "out loud"...  F Wasn't this done ages ago by someone by doing examanes and deposits to? `the right place' in DCL? About the time of DCLCMPLT perhaps...    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 04:59:24 -0700 - From: "derek pietro" <djpietro@earthlink.net> ( Subject: Re: Date to quadword in DCL????C Message-ID: <1120737564.152356.140190@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   F Thank you all (again - as this is not my first plea for help here) for$ the pointers and info on this issue.E Between all posts on this and some digging as a result of things read 0 here I've now a workable solution to my problem. Again - thanks all!    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 05:12:35 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>" Subject: Decnet Plus on a PBXDP-AA0 Message-ID: <BEF26A43.10A6C%roktsci@comcast.net>   Hi, . Nice to write you and hope so you can help me. I have following problem: 1 Try to config DECnet_Plus on AS800,OpenVMS v 7.1. L All is o.k,but when try to make connection to other node via PBXDP-AA 2 port. synchr.adapter, modem ,leasing 4 wire line and3 other modem to VAX11/750 ,DMF32 connection refused. 7 Decnet start and work corectlly via DEC600 over TCP/IP. 1 I config PBXDP-AA ports works with HDLS protokol. D Is possible work DECnet via HDLC and DDMCP protocols on VAX system ?E Please send me some advice or some example how to config my PBXDP-AA.  Thanks in advance. Best regards Nikolay Zarev    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:33:19 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> & Subject: Re: Decnet Plus on a PBXDP-AA4 Message-ID: <42cd2111$0$12905$626a14ce@news.free.fr>   Jeff Cameron wrote:    > Hi, 0 > Nice to write you and hope so you can help me. > I have following problem: 3 > Try to config DECnet_Plus on AS800,OpenVMS v 7.1. N > All is o.k,but when try to make connection to other node via PBXDP-AA 2 port0 > synchr.adapter, modem ,leasing 4 wire line and5 > other modem to VAX11/750 ,DMF32 connection refused. 9 > Decnet start and work corectlly via DEC600 over TCP/IP. 3 > I config PBXDP-AA ports works with HDLS protokol. F > Is possible work DECnet via HDLC and DDMCP protocols on VAX system ?G > Please send me some advice or some example how to config my PBXDP-AA.  > Thanks in advance. > Best regards > Nikolay Zarev    what what what?   O If you use a modem, the only software you can use (afaik) is real DECnet Phase  J IV via a serial line and of course DDCMP, which is no more available with ! DECnet-Minus, if I remember well.   P If you want to do DECnet with any kind of computer, please get rid of that (non D VMS) Engineering error which is DECnet-Minus and reinstall Phase IV.   (ok Flamers, go for it :-)   D.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 14:04:38 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results+ Message-ID: <3j4r3mFofto9U1@individual.net>   1 In article <qpaze.158$rO4.792@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, - 	"Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes: A > "My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com> a crit dans le message de & > news:7gaze.3940$xE5.2348@fe07.lga...J >> I have applied to the Hobbyist program 3 times and not received any LIC > paksJ >> in weeks.  I have also sent email to each of the entries in the contact > list >> with no response. >> >> Is the site abandoned?  >> >> > H > The Hobbyist program is still active - as assured by people at HP just	 > lately.  > L > I have never used it myself so I cannot speak from experience, but it is aI > big deception that it does not seem to work up to expectations, leading M > people to think it's dead and probably another reason for some to think VMS  > is dead altogether with it.  >  > This is an important issue.    C In the few cases where I had problems getting my PAKS from Montager ; it turned out to be too agressive SPAM filtering on my end.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:41:06 -0500* From: "My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com>@ Subject: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results* Message-ID: <7gaze.3940$xE5.2348@fe07.lga>  L I have applied to the Hobbyist program 3 times and not received any LIC paksL in weeks.  I have also sent email to each of the entries in the contact list with no response.    Is the site abandoned?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:48:42 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results1 Message-ID: <qpaze.158$rO4.792@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   ? "My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com> a crit dans le message de $ news:7gaze.3940$xE5.2348@fe07.lga...I > I have applied to the Hobbyist program 3 times and not received any LIC  paksI > in weeks.  I have also sent email to each of the entries in the contact  list > with no response.  >  > Is the site abandoned? >  >   F The Hobbyist program is still active - as assured by people at HP just lately.   J I have never used it myself so I cannot speak from experience, but it is aG big deception that it does not seem to work up to expectations, leading K people to think it's dead and probably another reason for some to think VMS  is dead altogether with it.    This is an important issue.    --   Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 9.2.0.5H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 14:28:33 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results+ Message-ID: <3j4sghFnspi3U1@individual.net>   + In article <cTaze.13370$Si3.5698@fe06.lga>, - 	"My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes:    But not very well, Chris.  :-)  = > I could agree with that, but nothing from anybody there....   C They do have real jobs too.  And then, this is vacation time. I can D think of lots of reasons why you might not get an answer right away.< Of course, if you want to pay them to man it full-time......   > N > I have experience with several Unixes and AS/400, I want to learn OpenVMS... > 3 > but it seems its hobbyist program poorly managed.   1 As compared to which other OSes Hobbyist Program?    >  > What are my options?  ? Check everythingon your end.  Turn off any email filtering that B may be in effect for a days or so and then request the PAKs again.A Mostly, be patient.  They don't get paid for doing this.  This is A the computer business.  Things go wrong.  Hopefully, someone will  fix it in short order.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:23:03 -0500* From: "My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com>D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results+ Message-ID: <cTaze.13370$Si3.5698@fe06.lga>   ; I could agree with that, but nothing from anybody there....   L I have experience with several Unixes and AS/400, I want to learn OpenVMS...  1 but it seems its hobbyist program poorly managed.    What are my options?   Chris     5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:3j4r3mFofto9U1@individual.net... 3 > In article <qpaze.158$rO4.792@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, . > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:C > > "My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com> a crit dans le message de ( > > news:7gaze.3940$xE5.2348@fe07.lga...L > >> I have applied to the Hobbyist program 3 times and not received any LIC > > paksL > >> in weeks.  I have also sent email to each of the entries in the contact > > list > >> with no response. > >> > >> Is the site abandoned?  > >> > >> > > J > > The Hobbyist program is still active - as assured by people at HP just > > lately.  > > L > > I have never used it myself so I cannot speak from experience, but it is a K > > big deception that it does not seem to work up to expectations, leading K > > people to think it's dead and probably another reason for some to think  VMS  > > is dead altogether with it.  > >  > > This is an important issue.  > E > In the few cases where I had problems getting my PAKS from Montager = > it turned out to be too agressive SPAM filtering on my end.  >  > bill >  > --  L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:42:11 -0500* From: "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com>D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results* Message-ID: <%8bze.4801$x82.4249@fe03.lga>   Bill, I     Oh I understand that, but we are talking a couple weeks.  I'll let it J sit, but I would like some confirmation that all is well.  This is of hugeH importance right now..  I have to start supporting OpenVMS at work (On aJ small scale) and the escalation points are.... well .... not helpful.(Lost is more like it)  A So I obtained a used Alphaserver 1000 5/333 for my home, That has J OpenVMS/Multinet on it, but I need the license and DCPS to get up to speed on the basics for my job...   I So really DCPS will get me out of the jam... but I can't get it anywhere. J Hobbyist looked like the best solution... I want to learn on my own system% so I don't destroy the one at work...    Chris.  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message % news:3j4sghFnspi3U1@individual.net... - > In article <cTaze.13370$Si3.5698@fe06.lga>, . > "My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes: >   > But not very well, Chris.  :-) > ? > > I could agree with that, but nothing from anybody there....  > E > They do have real jobs too.  And then, this is vacation time. I can F > think of lots of reasons why you might not get an answer right away.> > Of course, if you want to pay them to man it full-time...... >  > > E > > I have experience with several Unixes and AS/400, I want to learn 
 OpenVMS... > > 5 > > but it seems its hobbyist program poorly managed.  > 3 > As compared to which other OSes Hobbyist Program?  >  > >  > > What are my options? > A > Check everythingon your end.  Turn off any email filtering that D > may be in effect for a days or so and then request the PAKs again.C > Mostly, be patient.  They don't get paid for doing this.  This is C > the computer business.  Things go wrong.  Hopefully, someone will  > fix it in short order. >  > bill >  > --  L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 14:51:43 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results+ Message-ID: <3j4trvFo3mhvU1@individual.net>   * In article <%8bze.4801$x82.4249@fe03.lga>,- 	"Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes:  > Bill, K >     Oh I understand that, but we are talking a couple weeks.  I'll let it = > sit, but I would like some confirmation that all is well.     > That's OK, but I really get a kick when people bitch about the= VMS Hobbyist Program when you consider that there is no other < OS Hobbyist Program to match it.  I play with a lot of other= old hardware as well as my VAXen.  I have had to get rid of a > number of them because there is no legal way for a hobbyist to= run them.  The VMS Hobbyist Program is unique and that should  be recognized by everyone.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 08:20:53 -0700  From: fj40dan@gmail.com D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any resultsC Message-ID: <1120749653.175847.246390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>    My name is hidden wrote:N > I have applied to the Hobbyist program 3 times and not received any LIC paksN > in weeks.  I have also sent email to each of the entries in the contact list > with no response.  >  > Is the site abandoned?  E I have almost the same situation, I try to put in my encompass # into G the form at  Hobbyist site and it says that I'm not in the data base. I B havent been able to get as far as you. Is there something else I'm supposed to do?   ; Oddly we almost have the same equipment, alpha 1000a 5/333.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 15:24:59 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results+ Message-ID: <3j4vqbFo3mhvU2@individual.net>   1 In article <LIbze.160$rO4.792@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, - 	"Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes: A > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> a crit dans le message de ' > news:3j4trvFo3mhvU1@individual.net... - >> In article <%8bze.4801$x82.4249@fe03.lga>, / >> "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes: 
 >> > Bill,K >> >     Oh I understand that, but we are talking a couple weeks.  I'll let  > it> >> > sit, but I would like some confirmation that all is well. >>A >> That's OK, but I really get a kick when people bitch about the @ >> VMS Hobbyist Program when you consider that there is no other? >> OS Hobbyist Program to match it.  I play with a lot of other @ >> old hardware as well as my VAXen.  I have had to get rid of aA >> number of them because there is no legal way for a hobbyist to @ >> run them.  The VMS Hobbyist Program is unique and that should >> be recognized by everyone.  >> >> bill  >> >  > L > Instead of relying solely on email (as it sounds is the case), if the siteL > could enable a login procedure for the users and a screen where they could3 > see the state of their requests, that would help.  > G > It takes time to develop such a thing but it may be a good idea to do 
 > eventually.  > N > I just don't like the idea of people thinking the site is inactive. If users > could see somethink like:  > 1-JUL request submitted  > 2-JUL request being processed   E Unless there is a problem, not necessarily on their end, I have never C seen it take more than a few minutes for the PAKS to be mailed out. B Seems like the information above would prove pretty useless as youA would either receive your PAKs before the webpage was updatede or D there is a problem and the above information wouldn't fix it anyway.  ; > That would seem more encouraging than no response at all?   ? I don't believe that "no response" is the intended outcome, but < things do go wrong and as has been stated, this is not their? full-time job and they don't get paid for what they do.  If you ; can point to a better run Hobbyist Program, I would love to  hear about it.  ? By the way, maybe this belongs int he FAQ as well.  It seems to B pop up every once in a while.  Usually a few days pass and someoneC from the program reports in here with a resolution for the problem.    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:17:35 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results1 Message-ID: <LIbze.160$rO4.792@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   ? "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> a crit dans le message de % news:3j4trvFo3mhvU1@individual.net... , > In article <%8bze.4801$x82.4249@fe03.lga>,. > "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes:	 > > Bill, J > >     Oh I understand that, but we are talking a couple weeks.  I'll let it= > > sit, but I would like some confirmation that all is well.  > @ > That's OK, but I really get a kick when people bitch about the? > VMS Hobbyist Program when you consider that there is no other > > OS Hobbyist Program to match it.  I play with a lot of other? > old hardware as well as my VAXen.  I have had to get rid of a @ > number of them because there is no legal way for a hobbyist to? > run them.  The VMS Hobbyist Program is unique and that should  > be recognized by everyone. >  > bill >     J Instead of relying solely on email (as it sounds is the case), if the siteJ could enable a login procedure for the users and a screen where they could1 see the state of their requests, that would help.   E It takes time to develop such a thing but it may be a good idea to do  eventually.   L I just don't like the idea of people thinking the site is inactive. If users could see somethink like:  1-JUL request submitted  2-JUL request being processed 9 That would seem more encouraging than no response at all?   
 My 2 cents   --   Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 9.2.0.5H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:26:26 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results1 Message-ID: <HJWdnfTkAeo41FDfRVn-sg@adelphia.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > A >>"My name is hidden" <ke6rwj@msn.com> a crit dans le message de & >>news:7gaze.3940$xE5.2348@fe07.lga... >>J >>>I have applied to the Hobbyist program 3 times and not received any LICO >>>paks in weeks.  I have also sent email to each of the entries in the contact  >>>list with no response.  >>>  >>>Is the site abandoned?  >>>  >   E > In the few cases where I had problems getting my PAKS from Montager = > it turned out to be too agressive SPAM filtering on my end.   9 I just ran a test and requested the layered product PAKS.   ) The turn-around time was about 5 minutes.   ; For those of you that are using content based spam filters:   K The PAKs are sent in a DCL command file with the License Terms in comments.   E This means lots of '$' and '!' characters which is what many content   based spam filters use.   ' The sender was hobbyist(at)montagar.com   H If you can not turn off the content based spam filtering on your e-mail I account, then you can telnet to encompasserve.org and sign up for a free  J VMS account there.  I have no problems receiving the PAKs at that address.  G You can access e-mail at encompasserve by IMAP or locally, and you can   use FTP to transfer the files.   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:49:31 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results1 Message-ID: <L4adnZOGN86Q0lDfRVn-oA@adelphia.com>    fj40dan@gmail.com wrote: >   G > I have almost the same situation, I try to put in my encompass # into I > the form at  Hobbyist site and it says that I'm not in the data base. I D > havent been able to get as far as you. Is there something else I'm > supposed to do?   E Contrary to their earlier postings, the OpenVMS Hobby site this year  D would not recognize my prior two Encompasserve ID codes which I had $ previously requested licenses under.  H I had to get a new associate member number.  It took about 7 to 10 days : before that information made it to the OpenVMS Hobby site.  F As a test, I just forwarded the hobby paks that I just received to my / gmail account, they arrived almost immediately.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:04:16 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results1 Message-ID: <wocze.161$rO4.835@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   ? "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> a crit dans le message de % news:3j4vqbFo3mhvU2@individual.net... 3 > In article <LIbze.160$rO4.792@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, . > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes:   > > I > > Instead of relying solely on email (as it sounds is the case), if the  siteH > > could enable a login procedure for the users and a screen where they could 5 > > see the state of their requests, that would help.  > > I > > It takes time to develop such a thing but it may be a good idea to do  > > eventually.  > > J > > I just don't like the idea of people thinking the site is inactive. If users  > > could see somethink like:  > > 1-JUL request submitted ! > > 2-JUL request being processed  > G > Unless there is a problem, not necessarily on their end, I have never E > seen it take more than a few minutes for the PAKS to be mailed out. D > Seems like the information above would prove pretty useless as youC > would either receive your PAKs before the webpage was updatede or F > there is a problem and the above information wouldn't fix it anyway. >   J The point was, if you see it was processed, then it may be something wrong
 on your side. K You would have the assurance that the request was processed and could check H if the mail message was lost/dropped somehow by your mail server/client.   --   Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 9.2.0.5H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:29:27 -0500* From: "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com>D Subject: Re: IS the Hobbyist program active, I can't get any results+ Message-ID: <xJcze.13377$Si3.7951@fe06.lga>   I I had the same problem with my encompass ID it took 10 days for the DB to L recognize it.  I read somewhere that the DB's aren't online with each other,H so they have to get a dump from encompass to populate the hobbyist site.  ( keep trying I been at it for a month....  L One other thought about the "Hobyist Program" quality.  I am not knocking itJ at all I think its great, but its difficult to compare the ease of gettingE access to the OS legally when you got linux everywhere.  (this isnt a  compare of linux to OpenVMS!).  K The key to keeping the OS alive is widespread use and supportability.  Both H are fueled by the hobbyist type community...  Big business is inherentlyJ going to go with what works and what can be supported.  the argument aboutL the "best os" or "most Secure" OS has little impact on decision makers theseH days.  They are not technical, they often will choose what they can best support.   my 2.34563 Cents worth.   K And as a discalimer I DO feel that VMS is one of the most secure and stable I OS's ive ever worked with...for the price and I've worked with just about  all of them!   Chris   8 "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message+ news:L4adnZOGN86Q0lDfRVn-oA@adelphia.com...  > fj40dan@gmail.com wrote: > > I > > I have almost the same situation, I try to put in my encompass # into K > > the form at  Hobbyist site and it says that I'm not in the data base. I F > > havent been able to get as far as you. Is there something else I'm > > supposed to do?  > F > Contrary to their earlier postings, the OpenVMS Hobby site this yearE > would not recognize my prior two Encompasserve ID codes which I had & > previously requested licenses under. > I > I had to get a new associate member number.  It took about 7 to 10 days < > before that information made it to the OpenVMS Hobby site. > G > As a test, I just forwarded the hobby paks that I just received to my 1 > gmail account, they arrived almost immediately.  >  > -John  > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 07:21:06 -0500 ; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) " Subject: Keep that stiff upper lip3 Message-ID: <+9nvCxWjUjFi@eisner.encompasserve.org>   >    Our condolences to our friends in London.  And our support.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:26:40 -0400? From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> & Subject: Re: Keep that stiff upper lip0 Message-ID: <11cq7oa7fae8ofb@corp.supernews.com>  & Seems all telecoms are down to the UK.  ? I wonder what's happening with the financial market over there. G Alternate sites running VMS online outside of the home counties area  ?          --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   H "Bob Koehler" <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:+9nvCxWjUjFi@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > @ >    Our condolences to our friends in London.  And our support. >    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 07:56:36 -0700 * From: "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net>& Subject: Re: Keep that stiff upper lipC Message-ID: <1120748195.941374.159270@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>   - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: ( > Seems all telecoms are down to the UK. > A > I wonder what's happening with the financial market over there. I > Alternate sites running VMS online outside of the home counties area  ?   ? No major financial disruption. Comms are all ok apart from some 3 congestion on, especially, cellular phone networks.    --  
 Alan Greig   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 12:25:14 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)+ Message-ID: <3j4l9aFoea2hU1@individual.net>   0 In article <BEF1D4F2.10A31%roktsci@comcast.net>,+ 	Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net> writes: N > On 7/6/05 9:23 AM, in article aATye.145$rO4.813@tor-nn1.netcom.ca, "Syltrem"# > <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> wrote:  > # >> My colleague cannot find his CD. B >> It seems not to be on the layered software library either (CDs) >>  & >> Is it available somewhere you know? >> This is for an Alpha  >> $ robot show version  >> Media Robot Utility V1.4  >>  	 >> Thanks 0 > Better than MRU is MTI's RLM, free evaluation.6 > http://support.mti.com/MTICare/OpenVMS/RLM/index.htm+ > Works in Clustered and networked systems.  > Command line and API.    * Speaking of Media Robots, anyone want one?   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:13:26 -0400* From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)1 Message-ID: <mU9ze.151$rO4.798@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   I "David J Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> a crit dans le message de % news:42CC8414.94FA85F1@comcast.net...  > "Keith A. Lewis" wrote:  > > : > > "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca> writes in articleK <0uUye.146$rO4.820@tor-nn1.netcom.ca> dated Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:24:48 -0400: K > > >In the mean time I installed manually by copying the .EXE's from one = ( > > >machine to the other. Quite simple. > > A > > >I'm only missing the CLD file but that's easy to work around  > > >$ ROBOT:=3D=3D$ROBOT  > >  > > $ verb robot > > define verb ROBOT  > >    image ROBOT > >    parameter P1 $ > >       value (type=$rest_of_line) > > 2 > > >And no HELP either but I don't need it now... > >  > > $ robot help > > gives you a little.  > * > On the system where you "migrated" from: > 7 > $ LIBR/HELP/EXTR=ROBOT/OUT=ROBOT.HLP SYS$HELP:HELPLIB  > / > Copy it to the target system, and once there:  > $ > $ LIBR/HELP SYS$HELP:HELPLIB ROBOT >        Merci beaucoup !   --   Syltrem    OpenVMS 7.3-1 + Oracle 9.2.0.5H http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site, en franais)% ---zulu is not in my email address---    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:49:18 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)/ Message-ID: <00A46661.9B87E82D.4@tachysoft.com>   + >From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>  >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms/ >Subject: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) 
 >Lines: 18 >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal7 >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 9 >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 2 >Message-ID: <aATye.145$rO4.813@tor-nn1.netcom.ca> > ! >My colleague cannot find his CD. @ >It seems not to be on the layered software library either (CDs) >   P Seems not to be, but it actually is.  It is just not listed under its own name. * You can find it in the ABS directory tree.     Wayne O =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O =============================================================================== P Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I can buy that."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:51:35 -0500( From: Wayne Sewell <wayne@tachysoft.com>2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)/ Message-ID: <00A46661.ED2FB340.9@tachysoft.com>   + >From: "Syltrem" <syltremzulu@videotron.ca>  >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms3 >Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)  >Lines: 181  >MIME-Version: 1.0% >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; C >              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01C5822E.1563B690"  >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal7 >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 9 >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 2 >Message-ID: <0uUye.146$rO4.820@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>% >Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:24:48 -0400      >  >Hi  >  >Thanks for that.  > % >Looks like we have to order. No FTP.  >   J No, you don't, if you have the software library CDs.  As I said in another message, it's bundled with ABS. O =============================================================================== N Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738   wayne@tachysoft.com; http://www.tachysoft.com/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html    O =============================================================================== P Jake Blues:"You traded the Caddy for a microphone? ...... Okay, I can buy that."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:55:07 +1000# From: "Gremlin" <not-here@all.mate> > Subject: Re: Network card problems? Or something like that..../ Message-ID: <42cd1825$1@duster.adelaide.on.net>    Hi Kerry  C Network port - I assume you mean NIC via LANCP?  The switch is not  I manageable, so it does what it wants :)  SRM set to FastFD, LANCP set to  I /speed=100/full doesn't work, LANCP set to /speed=10/nofull works.  Have  J also swapped cables and plugged a W2K server with an Intel card and a SUN ' box in and both autonegotiate fine.....   M But on a slightly different topic, having patched everything in sight EXCEPT  L TCP/IP, what is the latest patch I can apply to 7.2-2 (having applied PCSI,  LAN, UPDATE etc.)?E -  DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0504-151-4.PCSI-DCX_AXPEXE  - mentions 7.2-2 H -  DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0504-152-4.PCSI-DCX_AXPEXE  - mentions 7.3 and  above H -  DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0504-154-4.PCSI-DCX_AXPEXE  - mentions 7.3 and  above H -  DEC-AXPVMS-TCPIP_ECO-V0504-155-4.PCSI-DCX_AXPEXE  - mentions 7.3 and  above   G I expect that it is the first because it is the only one that mentions  L applying it to 7.2-2, although in the other .txt files, I can't see the VMS  version prerequisite.    This may help me, maybe not!   TIA   3 "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote in message  L news:FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB6510F0@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net...   > -----Original Message-----* > From: Gremlin [mailto:not-here@all.mate] > Sent: July 6, 2005 5:14 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ > Subject: Re: Network card problems? Or something like that.... > 
 > Hi Kerry > B > At SRM, can't set to auto, it gets a message that it defaults to= > TwistedPair, so I set if to FastFD which it is happy about.  > Then, at LANCP, < > auto sets it to 100/full but it won't work, so I set it to > 10/half and itD > works fine.  Tried this on two cards and have applied the PCSI and > 722_update patches.  >   F Just to confirm that you have also set the network port to 100/full as well i.e. *NOT* auto-neg?   F (you typically need the console set to FASTFD, the network port set to# 100/full and the patches installed)   B When you say it works fine at 10/half, I suspect that what you areB seeing is the typical symptoms of a NIC-switch port mis-match i.e.4 "seems to work, but large transfers are ultra-slow".  A Likely already tried, but just in case - switch network ports and ! different NIC-port cable as well.    Interesting prob..   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)   4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:04:42 -0400, From: Carl Friedberg <frida.fried@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: Network card problems? Or something like that....7 Message-ID: <890539d905070710043ffdb50b@mail.gmail.com>    Hi,   2 The key here is surely the unmanaged switch at the other end of the cable.   1 It has been my experience that unmanaged switches 3 follow a non-DEC protocol to determine speed/duplex 9 settings. The rule is that if the result of that protocol 7 is not definitive, the port must be set to half duplex. 1 As a result, it is always safe to use 10mbps/half 1 duplex against an unmanaged port; it is sometimes , safe to use 100mbps/half duplex; and forcing0 100mbps/full duplex will never work, because the5 auto-negotiate will fail against a port (on the Alpha / in this case) which has fixed speed and duplex.   / The expensive workaround is to get a managed=20 . switch, and force the switch port to 100/full.  , Otherwise, you might get 100/half to work at! the Alpha end; it is worth a try.   3 There is history here, with Digital engineers using + one standard, and Hewlett Packard engineers - using the other. I can no longer remember the + names of the protocols, but I think one was & Auto Negotiate, and the other was Auto Detect?   1 On 7/6/05, Main, Kerry <kerry.main@hp.com> wrote:  >=20 > > -----Original Message-----, > > From: Gremlin [mailto:not-here@all.mate] > > Sent: July 6, 2005 8:37 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com B > > Subject: Re: Network card problems? Or something like that.... > > 
 > > Hi All > >  > > <big snip> > > ? > > OK, applied all the patches, rebooted, poor sad Alpha still  > > has no link 4 > > light when setting to 100 or to auto, so........ > > @ > > Ordering new card (DE500), have asked assorted friends for a > > "loan" of a @ > > 7.3-x CD but....no luck as yet, as I am on the other side of > > the worls and a ? > > fair way south, not easy to pop out to CA, NY or MO to pick  > > up a copy :) > >  >=20G > Well, this would make this the first system I have ever heard of with H > the NIC mis-match issue that a patch or console / network port setting > did not resolve. >=20F > Just to confirm, you are saying that with the console set to FASTFD,I > patch applied, network port set to 100 FD, that there are still issues? I > With the console hard set to FASTFD, does LANCP agree with what console 
 > was set to?  >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:12:22 -0400? From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> I Subject: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 0 Message-ID: <11cq6tf6t2tc98f@corp.supernews.com>  C If people haven't heard, now London is getting attacked.  ...7/7/05    --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:39:18 -0400? From: "David Turner, Island Computers US Corp" <david@hpaq.net> M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 0 Message-ID: <11cq8g0crh8k506@corp.supernews.com>  K If one person or 3000 people die because of some misguided extremists, then 
 it is to me ! J We don't know how many people died today - but I am hoping it is only two. (Two too many)  J The magnitude of the crime should not determine people's attitiude towards the reasoning behind it.           --     David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404  Tel: 912 447 6622 X201 Cell: 912 447 6622 X252  Fax: 912 201 0402  Email: dbturner@icusc.com  Web: http://www.islandco.com% ===================================== < All orders are subject to the following terms and conditions. of sale. These should be read before ordering.% http://www.islandco.com/warranty.html   : "Didier Morandi" <prenom.nom@freesurf.fr> wrote in message. news:42cd1fd1$0$31248$626a14ce@news.free.fr.../ > David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  > G > > If people haven't heard, now London is getting attacked.  ...7/7/05  > > . > David, it is not the same "scale" of horror. >  > D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:16:42 -0400 6 From: Brad Hamilton <brMadAhaPmiSlton@coMmcAasPt.Snet>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 0 Message-ID: <h-idncizrfOmtlDfRVn-2g@comcast.com>   Didier Morandi wrote: / > David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:  > F >> If people haven't heard, now London is getting attacked.  ...7/7/05 >>. > David, it is not the same "scale" of horror. >  > D.  D Still too early to tell about the "scale" of the attack - but it is E still disturbing.  My deepest sympathies to all involved, and I hope  F that no one in our "community" who live across the Big Pond have been  affected personally.   --   Bradford J. Hamilton "All opinions are my own" * "Lose the MAPS, and replace '-at-' with @"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:29:52 +0800  From: prep@prep.synonet.com " Subject: Re: ntp not synchronising- Message-ID: <87irznalm7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   8 Martin Hunt <martin.hunt@fairfaxnz.REMOVE.co.nz> writes:  G > I'm told that it is ntp (not sntp) on a Windows system. I'm also told B > that (after a couple of hops) this system gets its time from theH > internet. But it is becoming pretty obvious to me that this is not the > case.   H Windows ntp is know to be a total slag pit. Don't even THINK of trusting it.   @ > I have manually set the VMS clock from radio time signals and,D > according to the Windows system, VMS is running 95 seconds slow. IC > know this can't possibly be true, and have asked the operators of B > the intermediate boxes to verify this synchronisation. Hopefully$ > they will get it working properly.  D > What I want to know now is, what tells the VMS ntp that a clock isC > not synchronised? Which comand and output (on ntpq or ntpdc) will 7 > show this as the reason for the clock being rejected?   ? ntpdc -p will  give you the bumph. You should get the docs from % ntp.org and read and understand them.    $ mc tcpip$ntptrace = LOCALHOST: stratum 3, offset 0.000488, synch distance 0.22771 G k9.prep.synonet.com: stratum 2, offset 0.298446, synch distance 0.18645 T murgon.cs.mu.OZ.AU: stratum 1, offset -0.048752, synch distance 0.00075, refid 'GPS'  G That is from my Alpha, to the MX running Linux, to Melb Uni. You should E be able to do the same and get a trace back to a stratum 1 server. Be 0 interesting to see what sort of a mess you have.   ntp and windows; just say NO!    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 07:19:37 -06006 From: "Michael D. Ober" <obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam>" Subject: Re: ntp not synchronising. Message-ID: <JZ9ze.7$_11.2144@news.uswest.net>  F The time constraints for Windows are based on the requirements for theJ Kerberos Authentication scheme.  Thus, MS decided to embed SNTP instead ofK NTP.  Our network uses a Windows 2000 server that receives it's time from a J public Stratum 2 server.  I have never had our windows systems more than 5I seconds off from WWV and WWVH radio when using the built in SNTP service. F On the other hand, I was never successful at getting a third party NTP server for Windows to work.   G NTP is supposed to be accurate to a few milliseconds.  SNTP accuracy is K rated at a few seconds.  The messages passed between a NTP client and a NTP K server are identical to the messages passed between a NTP client and a SNTP  server.   
 Mike Ober.  ( <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message' news:87irznalm7.fsf@prep.synonet.com... : > Martin Hunt <martin.hunt@fairfaxnz.REMOVE.co.nz> writes: > I > > I'm told that it is ntp (not sntp) on a Windows system. I'm also told D > > that (after a couple of hops) this system gets its time from theJ > > internet. But it is becoming pretty obvious to me that this is not the	 > > case.  > J > Windows ntp is know to be a total slag pit. Don't even THINK of trusting > it.  > B > > I have manually set the VMS clock from radio time signals and,F > > according to the Windows system, VMS is running 95 seconds slow. IE > > know this can't possibly be true, and have asked the operators of D > > the intermediate boxes to verify this synchronisation. Hopefully& > > they will get it working properly. > F > > What I want to know now is, what tells the VMS ntp that a clock isE > > not synchronised? Which comand and output (on ntpq or ntpdc) will 9 > > show this as the reason for the clock being rejected?  > A > ntpdc -p will  give you the bumph. You should get the docs from ' > ntp.org and read and understand them.  >  > $ mc tcpip$ntptrace ? > LOCALHOST: stratum 3, offset 0.000488, synch distance 0.22771 I > k9.prep.synonet.com: stratum 2, offset 0.298446, synch distance 0.18645 J > murgon.cs.mu.OZ.AU: stratum 1, offset -0.048752, synch distance 0.00075, refid 'GPS'  > I > That is from my Alpha, to the MX running Linux, to Melb Uni. You should G > be able to do the same and get a trace back to a stratum 1 server. Be 2 > interesting to see what sort of a mess you have. >  > ntp and windows; just say NO!  >  > --  > > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. B >                                              West Australia 6076, > comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot0 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:33:42 -0500* From: "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com>6 Subject: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work.+ Message-ID: <vNcze.13378$Si3.3578@fe06.lga>   L I go the lic PAks by using a non-MSN account..  Hotmail and MSN both did notJ receive the email.  and the webmail interface showed no indication that it
 even arrived.   ! Where do I get the DCPS software?    Chris    ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:01:32 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk: Subject: Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work.) Message-ID: <dajn5c$sjn$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>   X In article <vNcze.13378$Si3.3578@fe06.lga>, "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes:M >I go the lic PAks by using a non-MSN account..  Hotmail and MSN both did not K >receive the email.  and the webmail interface showed no indication that it  >even arrived. > H Since the PAKS are in a dcl file would the attachment by any chance have a filetype of .com  ?   J To Microsoft .com is an executable attachment and hence may well be being  dropped.  
 David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University      " >Where do I get the DCPS software? >  >Chris >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:29:47 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> : Subject: Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work.1 Message-ID: <6MSdnZu9m_gW-1DfRVn-oA@adelphia.com>    Christopher Story wrote:N > I go the lic PAks by using a non-MSN account..  Hotmail and MSN both did notL > receive the email.  and the webmail interface showed no indication that it > even arrived.  > # > Where do I get the DCPS software?   E You can make a copy of it from $dayjob.  The other alternative is to  L indicate where you are geographically and see if you can get a copy locally.  F You will need a supported PostScript printer (or try your luck with a C non-supported PostScript printer) in order to really use it.  DCPS  B generally requires a two way communication with the printer.  The 8 parallel port on Alphas and I64 systems is one-way only.  H For two-way communications you need a serial or a raw TCPIP connection, 9 as I do not think that USB connections are supported yet.   I My faulty memory is that the people running the Hobbyist licensing asked  D for permission to set up an FTP site and were turned down, but were E given permission to sell CD-ROM collections.  I do not remember if I  C heard that at a DECUS convention or saw it as a discussion in this   newsgroup/mailing-list.   D By the way, the convention for this newsgroup/mailing-list and most A others that I participate in are for not top-posting, but to add  F comments under the applicable text and trim any previous text and all # signatures from the previous posts.   = Links about posting style can be found in the OpenVMS FAQ at   http://www.hp.com/go/openvms.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:31:46 -0400 - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> : Subject: Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work.1 Message-ID: <6MSdnZq9m_if-lDfRVn-oA@adelphia.com>    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:  > J > Since the PAKS are in a dcl file would the attachment by any chance have > a filetype of .com  ?   C I have always received them as a pain text message, no attachments.    -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 17:31:53 GMT ( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon): Subject: Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work.+ Message-ID: <3j5788Fnfj6fU1@individual.net>   ) In article <dajn5c$sjn$1@news.mdx.ac.uk>, ! 	david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: Z > In article <vNcze.13378$Si3.3578@fe06.lga>, "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@msn.com> writes:N >>I go the lic PAks by using a non-MSN account..  Hotmail and MSN both did notL >>receive the email.  and the webmail interface showed no indication that it >>even arrived.  >>J > Since the PAKS are in a dcl file would the attachment by any chance have > a filetype of .com  ?  > L > To Microsoft .com is an executable attachment and hence may well be being 
 > dropped. >   ? Unless they have changed things since I got my last set of PAKS @ mine always came as the body of the message rather than attached? so that wouldn't be it.  My guess is content based filtering as  someone else suggested.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:47:46 -0500? From: "Christopher Story" <ke6rwj@spam-eater-remove-me-msn.com> : Subject: Re: OK!, Got the Lic, MSN Account would not work.* Message-ID: <YSdze.4058$xE5.3979@fe07.lga>   John,      Thank you for the help.       % > > Where do I get the DCPS software?  > F > You can make a copy of it from $dayjob.  The other alternative is toE > indicate where you are geographically and see if you can get a copy  locally.  E I am in Birmingham, AL.  What is $dayjob? (please forgive I am a Unix  convert)  G > You will need a supported PostScript printer (or try your luck with a D > non-supported PostScript printer) in order to really use it.  DCPSC > generally requires a two way communication with the printer.  The : > parallel port on Alphas and I64 systems is one-way only.  C I have supported printers for a very long time.  DCPS requires TBCP L Statusing and not all PS printers support it correctly.  I have only seen it used on TCP/IP  E > By the way, the convention for this newsgroup/mailing-list and most B > others that I participate in are for not top-posting, but to addG > comments under the applicable text and trim any previous text and all % > signatures from the previous posts.   < Is this response better, If I understand your comment above.     Chris    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:07:50 GMT 1 From: Keith Parris <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> 2 Subject: Re: Performance issue after 7.3-2 upgrade2 Message-ID: <azbze.8092$bG3.7977@news.cpqcorp.net>   Jeff Anicker wrote: " > High mp synch and interrupt time  H For the high MP_Synch time, SYS$EXAMPLES:SPL.COM can help you determine , which spinlock is under the most contention.  H For high interrupt-state time, use PC sampling to determine which areas H of VMS code are involved. The SDA extension PCS can do this for you and ! is included in starting in 7.3-2.   + > Deadlock messages at the time in question   E Locks are often held to protect I/O requests. When I/Os are delayed,  H locks get held for longer periods, causing other lock requests to wait. H If a request is queued for longer than DEADLOCK_WAIT seconds, that will B trigger a deadlock search. Are you seeing deadlock finds, or just B fruitless searches? If the latter, you might consider temporarily F raising DEADLOCK_WAIT (it's a dynamic SYSGEN parameter) to reduce the H number of fruitless deadlock searches and the interrupt-state time they / consume, while you chase the slow-I/O problems.    > High tqe sysub  H Sorry -- Looks like a bit of line noise there at the end. What was that  supposed to say?  I The SDA extension TQE (available in 7.3-1 and above) might be of help in  
 tracing TQEs.   G > Increased disk response time and queue length, particularly on system  > disk- > Decreased operation rate on the system disk   H Can you shadow the disks, particularly the system disk, across a couple @ of different controller pairs so if there's a problem with one,  Shadowing can use the other?  E > CPU usage maxes out but the user processes are not getting much cpu G > time.  I don't see any particular process that starts at this time or G > that uses lots of cpu or io.  Decevent is showing no hardware errors.   E May be the MP_Synch and Interrupt time involved here. $MONITOR MODES  # could tell you if this is the case.   H > It might be worth while to note that the upgrade from acs 8.7 to 8.8-2G > caused problems with disks going into almost continuous mount verify. I > This has not been resolved.  The band aid is to present the storage out   > one controller only, not both.  I You didn't say what controller models are involved, but I'll assume HSGs  B for the moment. Are you getting queue-full conditions (do SDA> FC 9 STDT/ALL and look for counts under the "QF Seen" column)?    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 08:30:08 -0700 + From: "Jeff Anicker" <anickerj@comcast.net> 2 Subject: Re: Performance issue after 7.3-2 upgradeC Message-ID: <1120750208.381422.236400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>   C The controllers are HSG80's.  There is a fibre scsi patch that I've A been trying to install.  HP had version 5 which they pulled, then F version 6 which they pulled.  Now I'm a bit hesitant to go for versionD 7 if it comes out and no previous versions are available on itrc.  I> haven't seen the release notes to see what specific issues areA addressed in that patch but HP recommended it to resolve my mount  verify issues.  F The box is 10 cpu's in an 8400.  I know that's probably a couple cpu'sC too many but it has been working pretty well for us until now.  The F other is an 8400 with 8 cpu's.  Fast pathing is enabled and managed by vms.  G The mp sync time does not seem to affect cpu0 but does affect all other E cpu's.  Cpu 5 and 2 are least affected, all the others jump about the 7 same, from an average around 5 to an average around 40.   B Interupt state isn't quite so obvious.  Cpu 0 and 5 are definatelyC affected more than any other with cpu 7 to a lesser degree but more F than the rest.  The rest have only a slightly elevated interupt state.    E CPU 5 is the fast path device for fga0, fibre channel.  Cpu 7 is fast 0 path for PNA0, ci.  CPU 2 is fast path for PEA0.  E I am running tcpip services, version 5.4 eco 4.  It is fast pathed to  cpu 8.  G I am running the dedicated lock manager only on the node that is giving E me problems.  I turned it of yesterday as a shot in the dark thinking A that it was one thing that was a major difference between the two G systems.  It didn't resolve the problem at that time but I have left it , off and have not seen the problem yet today.  * The systems do share a common system disk.  C I have all the level 1 patches.  I'm missing the level 2 fibre scsi E patch as mentioned above.  I was seeing the suppressed opcom messages F (every 30 minutes an opcom message saying 5 mount verification noticesE were suppressed) until I limited the problem disks to being presented  from one controller.  E It would be nice to get a fix for the controller problem to see if it C is the cause of the performance problem.  Hopefully HP will have at D least version 4 of the scsi patch available by this weekend and thatE will resolve this issue with the mount verifies.  It would be nice to 2 know if I have 1 problem or 2 separate problems.     Jeff   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 10:38:36 -0700 , From: "Larry Fahnoe" <fahnoe@fahnoetech.com>2 Subject: Re: Performance issue after 7.3-2 upgradeA Message-ID: <1120757916.391307.9110@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Keith,  G You might want to look at HP calls 3211288205 and 3211144407 as we have & seen very similar issues on VMS 7.3-2.  E Briefly, we observed nodes slow down significantly for 10-15 minutes. C The problem seemed isolated to 3 out of the 7 nodes in the cluster. B During the slowdown we'd observe interupt mode time at around 150%> (dual CPU boxes) with kernel and MP sync equally split for theD remainder.  Needless to say there was no user mode left for anythingD else.  Using T4 I saw a strong correlation with split I/Os.  DFO 2.6G had been stopped since late January, so we updated it to 2.9 and got it A started again.  The performance problem has not cropped up since.   D While we were looking at the fragmentation aspect of the case, I wasG also advised to adjust NPAG_GENTLE and NPAG_AGGRESSIVE from the default F values to 100 for each.  This disables a pool trimming algorithm whichA has been seen to contribute to elevated interupt mode.  Since the > NPAG_* changes we've had one system crash with CPUSPINWAIT andD non-paged pool expansion on another system (case 3211288205).  We'reE awaiting news about a VMS732 SYS patch which is rumored to have a fix E for the non-paged pool problem we're seeing.  From what I understand, D default values of NPAG_GENTLE and NPAG_AGGRESSIVE can lead to highlyC fragmented pool and extreme performance problems, but disabling the B algorithm apparently exposes a leak and the potential for a crash.  * Heavy emphasis on the standard disclaimer!   --Larry    Keith Parris wrote:  > Jeff Anicker wrote: $ > > High mp synch and interrupt time > I > For the high MP_Synch time, SYS$EXAMPLES:SPL.COM can help you determine . > which spinlock is under the most contention. > I > For high interrupt-state time, use PC sampling to determine which areas I > of VMS code are involved. The SDA extension PCS can do this for you and # > is included in starting in 7.3-2.  > - > > Deadlock messages at the time in question  > F > Locks are often held to protect I/O requests. When I/Os are delayed,I > locks get held for longer periods, causing other lock requests to wait. I > If a request is queued for longer than DEADLOCK_WAIT seconds, that will C > trigger a deadlock search. Are you seeing deadlock finds, or just C > fruitless searches? If the latter, you might consider temporarily G > raising DEADLOCK_WAIT (it's a dynamic SYSGEN parameter) to reduce the I > number of fruitless deadlock searches and the interrupt-state time they 1 > consume, while you chase the slow-I/O problems.  >  > > High tqe sysub > I > Sorry -- Looks like a bit of line noise there at the end. What was that  > supposed to say? > J > The SDA extension TQE (available in 7.3-1 and above) might be of help in > tracing TQEs.  > I > > Increased disk response time and queue length, particularly on system  > > disk/ > > Decreased operation rate on the system disk  > I > Can you shadow the disks, particularly the system disk, across a couple A > of different controller pairs so if there's a problem with one,  > Shadowing can use the other? > G > > CPU usage maxes out but the user processes are not getting much cpu I > > time.  I don't see any particular process that starts at this time or I > > that uses lots of cpu or io.  Decevent is showing no hardware errors.  > F > May be the MP_Synch and Interrupt time involved here. $MONITOR MODES% > could tell you if this is the case.  > J > > It might be worth while to note that the upgrade from acs 8.7 to 8.8-2I > > caused problems with disks going into almost continuous mount verify. K > > This has not been resolved.  The band aid is to present the storage out " > > one controller only, not both. > J > You didn't say what controller models are involved, but I'll assume HSGsC > for the moment. Are you getting queue-full conditions (do SDA> FC ; > STDT/ALL and look for counts under the "QF Seen" column)?    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:14:23 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> ( Subject: POP Server problem with headers+ Message-ID: <42CCC83D.DD56BA2@teksavvy.com>   & VAX VMS 7.2 , TCPIP Services 5.3 ECO 2  N APP1  gets message from a foreign POP server, uses callable mail to deposit it on a VMSmail mailbox on node1 W APP2 run on node2, connects to the POP servers on node 1 to access the VMSMAIL mailbox.     K APP1 gets a message that seems ill formatted (spam) and likely only has LFs N between each lines. So when it parses the header, it sees it as one long line,M with an invalid date to boot. It therefore misses out on subject and From and C generates generic "null" header when creating the VMS mail message.   M However, when the header is written to a variable length file, the C run time H automatically splits the header properly, so using and editor or DUMP toN access the actual .MAI individual mail file, it shows the header 100% properlyS formatted with each line of the head in its own variable length record. All kosher.     K When APP2 accesses that message via the VMS pop server however, the VMS pop J server synthetizes a new header instead of using the one which seems to be# properly formatted (example below).   L Does anyone know why this would happen ?  Is it because it sees that the VMSL mail envelope doesn't match the RFC822 header below (subject and From: being different) ?  L What does the POP server key ion to determine if the message being retreivedN has a valid RFC822 header ? In my case, for those messages, it seems somethingH tells it that it is not valid, so it synthetises the header based on the VMSmail envelope.      -------     G Sample POP session log: (note the (null) and <no subject specified> are L generated by APP1 when it doesn't see a From: or Subject: in the header of a received message     +OK 1 messages (3319 octets) 1 3319 .  retr 1 +OK 3319 octets $ Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 05:45:10 -0400 From: <"(null)"@vaxination.ca> Subject: <no subject specified>  To: jfmezei   X-VMS-From: smtp%(null) "(null)"  = Received: from c1m10.emaildefenseservice.com ([216.40.36.43]) N         by mail.teksavvy.com (TekSavvy Mail Server v1.0) with SMTP id JDE74935K         for <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com>; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 05:33:47 -0400 N Received: from BSN-210-246-122.dsl.siol.net [195.210.246.122] (HELO localhost)P         by c1m10.emaildefenseservice.com (mxl_mta-1.3.8-10p6) with SMTP id 485a;-         Wed, 06 Jul 2005 05:33:56 -0400 (EDT) % Date: sre, 06 jul 2005 11:33:47 +0100  Return-path: <hill@yahoo.com> " From: "Feidelberg"<hill@yahoo.com> To: <jfmezei@teksavvy.com>O Subject: Windows XP, All Adobe software Just go and get it for 49.95! Macromedi 6 Message-ID: <002b01c54b50$10e49590$de01a8c0@jdkwd7ssa> MIME-Version: 1.0 
 X-Priority: 3  X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 2 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.21808 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Type: text/html  X-MX-Spam: exempt   X-MX-MAIL-FROM: <hill@yahoo.com>! X-MX-SOURCE-IP: [195.210.246.122]    <html>
 junk follows.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:05:44 GMT % From: "Safir" <axica_nopub@yahoo.com> - Subject: Re: The VMS Gateway FAQ is available 1 Message-ID: <Y77ze.8086$Xw3.712@news.cpqcorp.net>   / They are 4 OpenVMS ambassadors in "HP France" :    Mario Costa 
 Homi Faris Denis Maillard Marc Stefanelli    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 06:41:18 -0700 ! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com > Subject: UK folks can you send me email so I know you are safeC Message-ID: <1120743678.427586.222170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>    I will be worried until I know.    thanks,  Sue    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 06:45:04 -0700 ! From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com B Subject: Re: UK folks can you send me email so I know you are safeC Message-ID: <1120743904.404857.171110@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   & either hotmail or at my hp.com email.    thanks,  sue    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jul 2005 07:50:31 -0700 * From: "Alan Greig" <greigaln@netscape.net>B Subject: Re: UK folks can you send me email so I know you are safeC Message-ID: <1120747830.958479.218300@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   " susan_skonetski@hotmail.com wrote:! > I will be worried until I know.   F Death toll seems to be about 40. Tragic though that is chances are allE UK VMS people are safe. I'm 500 miles away from London about 30 miles D from the G8 summit. I guess everyone expected an attack, if it came,& near the summit rather than in London.   Appreciate your concern.  B What it must be like for folks in Baghdad who experience this on a daily basis...   --
 Alan Greig    	 > thanks,  > Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 08:40:48 +0200  From: Alex <alex@solnet.ch> 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for download8 Message-ID: <4cjpc1tjkf45iko751nuietuu6rau5ab4g@4ax.com>  - On 7 Jul 2005 05:18:36 GMT, "Dave Weatherall" ! <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> wrote:   ; >On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:02:22 UTC, Alex <aaa@bbb.ccc> wrote:   A >> Is this (and the philosophy behind it: socialism / communism / A >> fascism) not the main cause of the unemployment at over 10% ??  >>   >> Alex  >  >No it isn't !!  > G >The main reason for the high rate of unemployment is the way Kohl and  3 >Waigel managed the fiscal side of re-unification.    E It is *one* of the reasons, certainly. In your opinion, what did they 	 do wrong?    >Strangely enough the D >main critic at the time was 'Red' Oskar Lafontaine, along with Fr.  >Matthaus-Maier and me.    What was *their* objection?    Alex   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:04:07 GMT 5 From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) 0 Subject: Re: VAX software available for downloadL Message-ID: <rdeininger-0707050604070001@user-105n82p.dialup.mindspring.com>  5 In article <42CCB41D.FB981E72@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote:     O >There has already been a positive outcome with HP naming Sue as the HP rep for N >the hobbyist programme. Perhaps just a coincidencem perhaps not. But considerN >the timing of the "Hp knows" message from Sue and the subsequent announcement" >that she was the official HP rep.  I That had NOTHING to do with the foolish actions of the person who started ) this thread or the subsequent commentary.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.376 ************************