1 INFO-VAX	Sun, 10 Jul 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 382       Contents: Emacs on VMS5 interchangeability of memory between various machines 9 RE: interchangeability of memory between various machines / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there D Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks& Top Intel architect flees coop for AMD Re: Upgrading VMS  Re: Upgrading VMS  RE: Upgrading VMS  Re: Upgrading VMS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 06:58:55 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: Emacs on VMS ( Message-ID: <opstpaghkpzgicya@hyrrokkin>  5 has anyone tried installing this based on the work of  Thi (Thien-Thi Nguyen)  :     http://www.glug.org/people/ttn/software/emacs-for-vms/   ?    ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:24:14 +0000 (UTC) P From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply)> Subject: interchangeability of memory between various machines$ Message-ID: <dareit$jh4$1@online.de>  G I'm doing an inventory of all my hardware, making notes of what doesn't G work (graphics cards and power supplies are the main things which don't H work) and consolidating things.  If I have two machines which don't work? perfectly, I might combine them into one, for example.  So, I'm E wondering if memory is exchangeable between any of the machines below G (of course, I don't expect anything to be exchangeable between VAX and   ALPHA):    VAXstation   3100/30 VAXstation   3100/38 VAXstation   3100/48 VAXstation   4000/60 VAXstation   4000/90 VAXstation   4000/90A  VAX          4000/100A VAX          4000/105A    DEC          3000/300LX (EV4)  DEC          3000/600   (EV4)  ALPHAserver  2000       (EV4)  ALPHAserver  2100       (EV45) ALPHAstation  255/233   (EV45) ALPHAserver  1200       (EV56)  C When it comes to actually swapping SIMMs, I'll dig out the hardware B documentation.  However, I don't know where it is documented which6 memory actually works in more than 1 type of machine.   F In particular, can I put 4MB SIMMs for a VAXstation 4000/60 (I presumeC that's what it is; part number is 54-19145-AU or 54-19103) in the 4 B empty slots of a VAXstation 4000/90 which has 4 16-MB SIMMs at theH moment?  Can I put 16-MB SIMMs from a VAXstation 4000/90 (or 90A) into aC VAX 4000/105A?  Can I swap SIMMs among the various VAXstation 3100  E models listed above?  Can I swap SIMMs among the various EV4 systems  
 listed above?    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:59:51 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com> B Subject: RE: interchangeability of memory between various machinesR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB65119B@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply=20 - > [mailto:helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de]=20  > Sent: July 10, 2005 11:24 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com @ > Subject: interchangeability of memory between various machines >=20? > I'm doing an inventory of all my hardware, making notes of=20  > what doesn't@ > work (graphics cards and power supplies are the main things=20
 > which don't B > work) and consolidating things.  If I have two machines which=20 > don't workA > perfectly, I might combine them into one, for example.  So, I'm G > wondering if memory is exchangeable between any of the machines below ; > (of course, I don't expect anything to be exchangeable=20  > between VAX and=20	 > ALPHA):  >=20 > VAXstation   3100/30 > VAXstation   3100/38 > VAXstation   3100/48 > VAXstation   4000/60 > VAXstation   4000/90 > VAXstation   4000/90A  > VAX          4000/100A > VAX          4000/105A > =20  > DEC          3000/300LX (EV4)  > DEC          3000/600   (EV4)  > ALPHAserver  2000       (EV4)   > ALPHAserver  2100       (EV45)  > ALPHAstation  255/233   (EV45)  > ALPHAserver  1200       (EV56) >=20E > When it comes to actually swapping SIMMs, I'll dig out the hardware D > documentation.  However, I don't know where it is documented which: > memory actually works in more than 1 type of machine.=20 >=20H > In particular, can I put 4MB SIMMs for a VAXstation 4000/60 (I presumeE > that's what it is; part number is 54-19145-AU or 54-19103) in the 4 D > empty slots of a VAXstation 4000/90 which has 4 16-MB SIMMs at theA > moment?  Can I put 16-MB SIMMs from a VAXstation 4000/90 (or=20 
 > 90A) into a G > VAX 4000/105A?  Can I swap SIMMs among the various VAXstation 3100=20 I > models listed above?  Can I swap SIMMs among the various EV4 systems=20  > listed above?  >=20 >=20  
 Phillip  -  5 Some pointers to assist you: (url's will likely wrap)   H http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/options/mvx/mvx_1_options.html#Opt ListHead  H http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/options/cat/cat_1_options.html#Opt ListHead  H http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/options/vax4/vax4_1_options.html#O
 ptListHead  H http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/options/vaxs/vaxs_1_options.html#O
 ptListHead  A Note - for future reference: Retired VAX systems info:(follow the  options info at bottom of page) * http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/vax/   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:44:13 -0700 ( From: Jeff Cameron <roktsci@comcast.net>8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there0 Message-ID: <BEF611CD.10C46%roktsci@comcast.net>  J Not to quibble, but the Mathematical definition of a Gorham is not 411,000I it is 14,141. It is based on the total population of a town and adjoining D unincorporated area around Gorham, Maine in the 2000 census. Why the: definition is used in mathematical circles, I do not know.  K On 7/9/05 8:30 PM, in article 42d09775$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net, "John  Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  ( > 1 Gorham = 411,000 systems running VMS > ; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/07/07/2013899  > * > HP Ramps Up OpenVMS on Integrity Servers > ...... >  > M > "Blatz says that as far as HP can tell, there are somewhere from 350,000 to L > 375,000 VAX and AlphaServer machines out there in the world still running,N > and about 100,000 of them are VAXen. The vast majority of these machines areM > running VMS and OpenVMS, the Unix-oid update of VMS. Most of these machines J > are not running the former Digital Equipment Corp's Tru64 Unix platform,L > which is good news since HP has put it into maintenance mode and also lastN > year spiked the idea of weaving Tru64 Unix clustering support into its HP-UXJ > Unix platform. (This was one of the reasons that HP claimed to be buyingN > Compaq, but it was just easier for HP to use and promote clustering software1 > and file systems from Veritas, which it did.) "  > J > The numbers above may or may not include systems that are off support. II > somehow doubt that there are enough Hobbyist systems to account for the 
 > difference.  >  > --F > OpenVMS -See what a lack of marketing and advertising can do to your > installed base.  >  >  > F > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==----J > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > NewsgroupsM > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2005 12:40:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there+ Message-ID: <3jcj9pFng4ceU3@individual.net>   4 In article <42d09775$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>,& 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:( > 1 Gorham = 411,000 systems running VMS > ; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/07/07/2013899  > * > HP Ramps Up OpenVMS on Integrity Servers > ...... > M > "Blatz says that as far as HP can tell, there are somewhere from 350,000 to L > 375,000 VAX and AlphaServer machines out there in the world still running,N > and about 100,000 of them are VAXen. The vast majority of these machines are > running VMS and OpenVMS,    G This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would bet F there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are- running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1.   6 >                         the Unix-oid update of VMS.   ; Well, there goes any credibility this article may have had.   L >                                                     Most of these machinesJ > are not running the former Digital Equipment Corp's Tru64 Unix platform,  I Of course not, Ultrix, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, plain old fashioned BSD, ' and Linux are the more likely culprits.   L > which is good news since HP has put it into maintenance mode and also lastN > year spiked the idea of weaving Tru64 Unix clustering support into its HP-UXJ > Unix platform. (This was one of the reasons that HP claimed to be buyingN > Compaq, but it was just easier for HP to use and promote clustering software1 > and file systems from Veritas, which it did.) "  > J > The numbers above may or may not include systems that are off support. II > somehow doubt that there are enough Hobbyist systems to account for the 
 > difference.   J There is a good chanve that there are more systems in his ignored catagoryF than in his target catagory and that doesn't neceddarily mean they are Hobbyist systems either.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 06:44:44 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there( Message-ID: <opsto9suk4zgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 10 Jul 2005 12:40:25 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  6 > In article <42d09775$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>,( > 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:) >> 1 Gorham = 411,000 systems running VMS  >>< >> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/07/07/2013899 >>+ >> HP Ramps Up OpenVMS on Integrity Servers 	 >> ......  >>E >> "Blatz says that as far as HP can tell, there are somewhere from   
 >> 350,000 to F >> 375,000 VAX and AlphaServer machines out there in the world still   >> running, D >> and about 100,000 of them are VAXen. The vast majority of these   >> machines are  >> running VMS and OpenVMS,  > I > This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would bet H > there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are/ > running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1.   J Bill, do you have any basis for that assertion?  I mean, why would someoneJ spend the money to buy an Alpha platform, for example, to run Linux when   theyF can, for much less money get an X86 box that will do the job and run   faster. K IMNSHV, the only reason to own an Alpha is to run VMS or Tru64.  I ran NT    for I a few years on an XL266, and that didn't make a lot of sense, gave away    the box.; FX!32 was a very interesting piece of engineering, however.  > 6 >>                         the Unix-oid update of VMS. > = > Well, there goes any credibility this article may have had.  > F >>                                                     Most of these   >> machines K >> are not running the former Digital Equipment Corp's Tru64 Unix platform,  > K > Of course not, Ultrix, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, plain old fashioned BSD, ) > and Linux are the more likely culprits.  > J >> which is good news since HP has put it into maintenance mode and also   >> last K >> year spiked the idea of weaving Tru64 Unix clustering support into its    >> HP-UXK >> Unix platform. (This was one of the reasons that HP claimed to be buying H >> Compaq, but it was just easier for HP to use and promote clustering   >> software 2 >> and file systems from Veritas, which it did.) " >>K >> The numbers above may or may not include systems that are off support. I J >> somehow doubt that there are enough Hobbyist systems to account for the >> difference. > E > There is a good chanve that there are more systems in his ignored   
 > catagoryH > than in his target catagory and that doesn't neceddarily mean they are > Hobbyist systems either. >  > bill >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:01:41 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there( Message-ID: <opstpiw3cgzgicya@hyrrokkin>  F On 10 Jul 2005 16:24:28 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  * > In article <opsto9suk4zgicya@hyrrokkin>,( > 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:I >> On 10 Jul 2005 12:40:25 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:  >>8 >>> In article <42d09775$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>,* >>> 	"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:+ >>>> 1 Gorham = 411,000 systems running VMS  >>>>> >>>> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/07/07/2013899 >>>>- >>>> HP Ramps Up OpenVMS on Integrity Servers  >>>> ......  >>>>E >>>> "Blatz says that as far as HP can tell, there are somewhere from  >>>> 350,000 to F >>>> 375,000 VAX and AlphaServer machines out there in the world still
 >>>> running, D >>>> and about 100,000 of them are VAXen. The vast majority of these >>>> machines are  >>>> running VMS and OpenVMS,  >>> K >>> This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would bet J >>> there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are1 >>> running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1.  >>2 >> Bill, do you have any basis for that assertion? > E > Which assertion? The 5 to 1?  I just go in the other room and count  > them. :-)  Sorry, missed the 'here' > G >>                                                  I mean, why would   
 >> someoneK >> spend the money to buy an Alpha platform, for example, to run Linux when  >> they G >> can, for much less money get an X86 box that will do the job and run 
 >> faster. > E > Really?  I got my last couple of Alphas for nothing.  Can a current G > x86 beat that price?  And I aslo thought that Alpha was still holding H > it's own against the other processors.  In any case, the last issue of7 > Linux Journal I saw still had Alpha System ads in it.  > K >> IMNSHV, the only reason to own an Alpha is to run VMS or Tru64.  I ran    >> NT  >> forJ >> a few years on an XL266, and that didn't make a lot of sense, gave away >> the box.  > G > We had a professor here who bought an Alpha back then in order to run G > Windows.  After about two weeks he put Linux on it and has been happy 
 > ever since.  >  > bill >    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2005 12:35:26 -0500- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there3 Message-ID: <BWsr3c$3D060@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3jd0dsFpe6h1U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:* > In article <opsto9suk4zgicya@hyrrokkin>,( > 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:I >> On 10 Jul 2005 12:40:25 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:   K >>> This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would bet J >>> there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are1 >>> running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1.  >>  4 >> Bill, do you have any basis for that assertion?   > E > Which assertion? The 5 to 1?  I just go in the other room and count  > them. :-)   1 I tried that technique and got a ratio of 0 to 6.    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2005 17:41:32 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there+ Message-ID: <3jd4ucFpdlpfU1@individual.net>   3 In article <BWsr3c$3D060@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:X > In article <3jd0dsFpe6h1U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:+ >> In article <opsto9suk4zgicya@hyrrokkin>, ) >> 	"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: J >>> On 10 Jul 2005 12:40:25 GMT, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > L >>>> This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would betK >>>> there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are 2 >>>> running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1. >>> 5 >>> Bill, do you have any basis for that assertion?    >>  F >> Which assertion? The 5 to 1?  I just go in the other room and count >> them. :-) > 3 > I tried that technique and got a ratio of 0 to 6.   E Yes, but the question then becomes, which of us in the norm and which E the anomaly?  Considering that BSD had it's biggest support on VAXen  F and that they are still supported by both NetBSD and OpenBSD, I assumeD the demand exceeded critical mass.  Then we have FreeBSD, which onlyD supports a couple of architectures (unlike the other BSD's and LinuxE which seem intent on running on everything) one of which is Alpha.  I A would assume they would not have done the port if there was not a C demand.  I wonder if any of these organizations still track numbers C of users?  It would make an interesting compare to the VMS Hobbyist & numbers which I am sure are available.? [Also out of curiosity, I wonder if the number of Hobbyists has # exceed the VMS Constant yet! :-)  ]    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:26:15 -0400 . From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spoamnot@teksavvy.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks , Message-ID: <42D0BF71.FE821670@teksavvy.com>   Z wrote:G > Kyoto was far too restrictive and flawed from the outset by excluding ; > major polluters. Thank goodness it will never be adopted.   L Kyoto came into force this year when more that 55% of CO2 producers ratifiedN it.  But the USA, which produces over 36% of the world's pollution with only a< small proportion of the world's population doesn't want to.   K The USA will be forced to sign it (or abide by its targets) eventually. Not N signing it means it cannot take advantage of CO2 credit exchanges whihc can beJ profitable. (Russian companies are taking advantage of this to raise theirM revenus because they cleaned up earlier than predicted and can sell their CO2 . credits to companies who haven't yet complied.    J > A more sane option, and one that doesn't give China and India and Brazil > free passes, has a chance.  H The USA has no right to complain about China and India until it ratifiesK Kyoto. Then it can force China and India to sign and ratify Kyoto as well.  H You're the worst polluter and China isn't YET the worst polluter, but ifI brakes are not put QUICKLY on its energy consumption growth, it will soon 0 becomes a really serious problem for the planet.     > Kyoto is dead.   Kyoto is alive and in effect.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 02:46:21 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks = Message-ID: <jPqdnY24jpGjWU3fRVn-vw@metrocastcablevision.com>   
 Lurker wrote: 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 9 > news:FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com...  >  >>Lurker wrote:  >>E >>>He is right about that. Here in New Zealand (which has signed that D >>>protocol) we have plants closing down right now 'cause they can't* >>>cope with additional compliance burden. >>@ >>I guess you just don't have much in the way of entrepreneurial >>initiative down there, then: >  >  > We do   G Ah, then it must be a lack of innate competence, then - a thesis which  ( your own behavior here seems to support.  H That's OK:  the more incompetent the rest of the world is in this area, I the better off those who embrace the opportunity will be.  And that's as  F it should be (at least within reasonable limits:  capitalism needs an F effective companion safety net to keep the truly incompetent from the = more disastrous consequences of their behavior, not only for  A humanitarian reasons but because disasters are seldom completely   confinable).   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2005 12:25:48 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks + Message-ID: <3jciecFng4ceU1@individual.net>   = In article <FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com>, + 	Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > H > Most of the rest of the world has taken a noticeably more responsible A > attitude toward automotive energy efficiency for many decades,    G Really?  VW makes an SUV. Mercedes-Benz makes an SUV, BMW makes an SUV. H Honda makes an SUV.  Toyota makes and SUV.  Need I go on?  And of courseE your prime example, The Hummer is made by Daimler-Chrysler.  Not sure G which side of the ocean owns the bigger part at this time, but it isn't B strictly American.  It's all about the money even for the supposed earth-friendly countries.     H >                                                                taxing D > gasoline (and unnecessarily gas-guzzling vehicles) at a rate that E > encourages use of more energy-efficient products and/or collective  K > transportation (car pools, mass transit, etc.) where it's feasible to do   > so.     C No, taxation raises money for the rulling regime. That is it's only F real purpose.  There have been numerous stories recently on the GermanG radio station I listen to aboutt he high (and rising) cost of gasoline. E Let's see, they are closer to the Middle East so transportation costs D for the raw oil would be less than for the US.  Their entire countryF is smaller than most of our states so the transportation costs for theD finished product would be less.  So if gas cost more there than hereD the only possible reason is taxes.  And guess what, I am not hearingC people thanking the government the "encouragement" it is providing.   I >     For a while, after the 'gas crises' of the '70s (which pale beside  J > what we're going to be in for fairly soon), we seemed to be headed in a C > similarly more responsible direction, but Ronnie Ray-Gun and his  + > ideological successors took care of that.   G No, what "took care of that" was that people found out the "gas crises" G was contrived to find out just how high prices could go without a major . revolt worldwide.  It was all about the money.   > > >> Consider what goes into producing your average solar panel," >> it's anything but eco-friendly. >>   >>  J >>>What americans can't seem to understand is that Bush is misleading them >>   >> when  >>  1 >>>he says that Kyoto would kill the USA economy.  >>   >>  E >> He is right about that. Here in New Zealand (which has signed that D >> protocol) we have plants closing down right now 'cause they can't* >> cope with additional compliance burden. > A > I guess you just don't have much in the way of entrepreneurial   > initiative down there,    D Or maybe he's right and your wrong.  Kyoto was designed to take awayD some of the competitive advantage the US has built up over the years) by being better than the other countries.   K >                        then:  the kinds of technological challenges that  G > reducing greenhouse emissions raises fall into the increasingly rare  I > category of areas in which the U.S. retains an ability to compete very  C > successfully with the rest of the world - so not only would such  E > development satisfy our own market, but we could export it as well.  > G > Perhaps you're just too busy pissing and moaning about the very real  E > need for change to recognize the opportunities that change creates.   F Sounds to me like you are the one always "pissing an moaning".  If allG those other countries are so much better than we are, why are you still  here?    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:44:19 GMT + From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks : Message-ID: <DK8Ae.135503$PR6.135308@tornado.texas.rr.com>  ) Bill Gunshannon (bill@cs.uofs.edu) wrote:  : . : ...The Hummer is made by Daimler-Chrysler.   :     No, it's made by General Motors:      http://www.gm.com/ B    GM Cars - General Motor Corporate Website - GM Customer Service     --Jerry Leslie9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:27:43 -0400 # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 4 Message-ID: <42d12373$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:? > In article <FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com>, , > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >>H >> Most of the rest of the world has taken a noticeably more responsibleA >> attitude toward automotive energy efficiency for many decades,  > D > Really?  VW makes an SUV. Mercedes-Benz makes an SUV, BMW makes anE > SUV. Honda makes an SUV.  Toyota makes and SUV.  Need I go on?  And G > of course your prime example, The Hummer is made by Daimler-Chrysler.     G Not to quibble but AM General makes the original military Humvee, while ' General Motors makes the Hummer and H2.    <snip>   >>> 3 >>>> he says that Kyoto would kill the USA economy.  >>>  >>> F >>> He is right about that. Here in New Zealand (which has signed thatE >>> protocol) we have plants closing down right now 'cause they can't + >>> cope with additional compliance burden.  >>A >> I guess you just don't have much in the way of entrepreneurial  >> initiative down there,  > F > Or maybe he's right and your wrong.  Kyoto was designed to take awayF > some of the competitive advantage the US has built up over the years+ > by being better than the other countries.     K 'Better' than the other countries? That's a somewhat chauvinistic response.   G 'Better' in which way - such as responsible for more pollution than any F other country on earth - is that really 'better'? By not showing moral% leadership - is that really 'better'?   A Kyoto is an attempt to slow down the rate of pollution and energy J consumption of the whole world so as to buy time for all of us to not makeD the world uninhabitable by humans. Sure the world is a big place butL eventually the arsenic and other pollutants coming from smokestacks in IndiaH and China and the developed world make their way around the globe. Is it@ going to take a massive ozone hole over D.C. before the US acts?       --F OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base.       O ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- S http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups K ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2005 13:53:41 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks + Message-ID: <3jcnj5FoncrfU1@individual.net>   : In article <DK8Ae.135503$PR6.135308@tornado.texas.rr.com>,. 	LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (leslie) writes:+ > Bill Gunshannon (bill@cs.uofs.edu) wrote:  >:  / >: ...The Hummer is made by Daimler-Chrysler.    >:   > " > No, it's made by General Motors: >  >    http://www.gm.com/ D >    GM Cars - General Motor Corporate Website - GM Customer Service  B My mistake, I thought it was a Chrysler product and Daimler boughtD Chrysler some years ago.  I don't follow it that close as I wouldn't: consider owning one.  The vehicle is just too impractical.  ? Oh yeah, and during my trip to germany last year it was rather  > interesting to see the number of SUV's running up and down the? Autobahn.  Considering the dearth pf off-road sites in Germany, A it was an interesting site.  Looks like it's not just an american 
 obsession.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:08:18 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 0 Message-ID: <ZP-dnaxxa7ZPtkzfRVn-jQ@comcast.com>  - David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote:   K >If one really thinks about this whole scenario you know what the answer is  >to this international problem.  > K >Forced evacuation of ALL european, russian and american/canadian interests  >in the middle east.K >Embargo the middle east - blocade their ports, blacklist their banks,  and G >not allow them to ship anything out and only import food and clothing.  > H >You know what that would do to the terrorists, and more importantly the( >financial backers of the terrorists?!?! > L >Guns in the EU/Rest of the world,  are obtainable quite easily in the blackK >market - I know as a Brit that I can go to some shady characters in Camden F >and get one tomorrow (of course I can go to Walmart down the street i  >Savannah GA and buy one today).K >BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE - the average Joe in the UK/EU cannot afford to pay 1 >big money for illegals guns, ammo, RPGs, C4 etc. K >These all cost money - if they can't get cash from Sympathisers (in Saudi, 4 >Yemen Iran Iraq Pakistan, etc. then they are stuck. > J >After all, we only deal with Arab countries for oil - I am sure with  theM >North Sea, Alaska, Canada and the US we have enough oil for a century or two 3 >until solar and fuel cell technology take over....  >  >My 2 cents/pennies/eurocents  >  >  >    > A Ummm. . . .  Enough oil?   Have you noticed what has happened to  H gasoline prices in the last year or two?   This is with the arabian oil I fields pumping like mad.    I suspect that any major interruption in the  I oil supply from the mid-east would result in rationing and, most likely,   an economic collapse.   D What happens to the auto industry when people can't drive their gas F guzzling behemoths any more?  What happens to the steel industry when I the auto industry collapses?  What happens to the big-box shopping malls  G that people can't get to anymore?  All the people who would lose their  D jobs wouldn't be spending much money any more which would mean that # other people would lose their jobs.   E Of course, as an expatriate Brit, you haven't noticed that people in  8 Europe are already paying $4-$5 per gallon for gasoline.  I I don't think a new atomic power plant has been built in the last twenty  E years.   Thermonuclear fusion power is thirty or forty years away if   it's possible at all.   A The loss of mid east oil would create a crisis like you wouldn't   believe!!!!!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:50:23 -0700  From: Z <Z@no.spam> M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks * Message-ID: <2tbAe.2477$5R1.1116@fe07.lga>   JF Mezei wrote: I > The USA will be forced to sign it (or abide by its targets) eventually.   , <sigh>. You DO make this up as you go along.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2005 10:05:53 -0700$ From: "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks C Message-ID: <1121015153.138110.283490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    JF Mezei wrote: < > Re: Solar panels covering vegetation on a planetary scale. > O > 1- Ever considered micro power generation where solar panels are put on roofs A > of homes and buildings, thus not covering any vegetated areas ?  > N > 2-If the USA wasn't so dependant on air conditioned personal tanks to get to  5                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   G Yeah, that's easy for you to say living in Canada! It's a little hotter  down here in the States!!!  F I do agree that most people could do without the SUV's. BUT DON'T TELL/ ME ABOUT A/C BEING THAT YOU LIVE IN CANADA! :-|     I > work or the convenience store, it could have narrower roads/fewer roads K > instead of dozen lane highways and mega interchanges. Think about all the H > vegegation this destroys on a country-wide scale. (this applies to all > countries BTW).   E The area covered by roads is a tiny, tiny fraction of the total area. 3 And how would your idea translate into FEWER roads?    [...]   M > Consider this: the Internatinal Energy Agency had released a paper not long M > ago about emergency measures that could be taken to reduce WORLD oil demand N > should the need arise. The first recommendation is an immediate reduction ofO > the maximum speed in USA highways to 55 mph, which would reduce US demand for  > foreign oil by 3% right away.   + Do you have a reference for this 3% figure?    > N > When you consider that an demand that esxeeds supply by 0.1% causes havok toH > world oil prices, this is a small step the USA can take to make a HUGE" > difference in world oil markets.  7 It's not a small step. Been there, done that. It sucks.    [...]    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:50:58 -0400 . From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spoamnot@teksavvy.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks , Message-ID: <42D151ED.3DD354DC@teksavvy.com>  : Re: Solar panels covering vegetation on a planetary scale.  M 1- Ever considered micro power generation where solar panels are put on roofs ? of homes and buildings, thus not covering any vegetated areas ?   L 2-If the USA wasn't so dependant on air conditioned personal tanks to get toG work or the convenience store, it could have narrower roads/fewer roads I instead of dozen lane highways and mega interchanges. Think about all the F vegegation this destroys on a country-wide scale. (this applies to all countries BTW).     L Until they get fusion running, we will not have any magic solution to energyM problems. But each step can help reduce consumption of pollutiong fuels.  The J USA needs to cut its emissions by 16% to comply with Kyoto which is just aM first step.  You can achieve this without dramatic changes. Just adjustements M to the way people live and the way industries operate to make themselves more  efficient.    K Consider this: the Internatinal Energy Agency had released a paper not long K ago about emergency measures that could be taken to reduce WORLD oil demand L should the need arise. The first recommendation is an immediate reduction ofM the maximum speed in USA highways to 55 mph, which would reduce US demand for  foreign oil by 3% right away.   L When you consider that an demand that esxeeds supply by 0.1% causes havok toF world oil prices, this is a small step the USA can take to make a HUGE  difference in world oil markets.    N Whart is needed is not to rebuild everything. What is needed is the equivalentH of hiring a VMS performance expert to fine tune your system to make much getter use of what you have.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:57:21 -0400 . From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spoamnot@teksavvy.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks , Message-ID: <42D1536C.4143DE72@teksavvy.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:F > Or maybe he's right and your wrong.  Kyoto was designed to take awayF > some of the competitive advantage the US has built up over the years+ > by being better than the other countries.   0 Is this really the way americans see this ? God.  G What will it take for you to wake up ? Lower Manhgattan to be regularly H flooded whenever there are strong winds and waves cover it ? JFK airport! closing often for same reasons ?    N If you start having hurricanes all year long that cost hundreds of millions ofE descruction each, will you still deny that global warming has costs ?   M What happens when the netherland sue polluters because Amsterdam is no longer . able to keep itself dry due to rising oceans ?  H Consider the amount of water currently stored on top of Greenland. It isM starting to melt. That my friend has the potential to inflict on new york far J more damage than the 9-11 terrorists. (Add Boston to the list too, and all other coastal cities)     L > >                        then:  the kinds of technological challenges thatH > > reducing greenhouse emissions raises fall into the increasingly rareJ > > category of areas in which the U.S. retains an ability to compete very+ > > successfully with the rest of the world   N The US  *CAN*. But won't because the Bush regime refuses to take strong actionI to act as the catalyst to make this happen.  It killed Kyoto in its first T couple weeks in office without having had time to really read what it was all about.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:00:12 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> / Subject: Top Intel architect flees coop for AMD ( Message-ID: <opstpiumapzgicya@hyrrokkin>  ) http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24500 & Top Intel architect flees coop for AMD  ' Once more into the breach, dear friends     + By Adamson Rust: Sunday 10 July 2005, 12:01   J SOURCES CLAIMED that top architect Scott Breach, who was a leader of the  K team on the Alpha EV7, is leaving Intel to take a job with the competition.   K Breach, who has a home page that shows he seems to be a cool dude indeed,   I and is highly regarded by chip architects worldwide, recently worked on   < the system interface of Tukwila the Old and Tukwila the New.  J INQ readers will recall that Intel has started to re-use code names with  D Nehalem getting a fresh leash of life as well as Tukwila, of course.  K Many of the people who graduated from the University of Wisconsin are now   I top boffins. It is a great loss for Intel, which inherited him from the    Alpha team.   C According to his home page, his thesis work was on the design and   & evaluation of a multiscalar processor.  G He lists his research interests as computer architecture, multiscalar   J projects, and beer. There are some great places to drink beer in Austin.   Or so we've been told.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:50:20 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: Upgrading VMS0 Message-ID: <UsOdncm8is-AKk3fRVn-pQ@comcast.com>   David D Miller wrote:    >  >  >G'day:  > J >How do you make a decision to upgrade?  Is your decision ruled by Policy?H >By convenience (nothing else to do today)?  Or do you have an objective >criteria that you apply?  > K >Specifically, is 7.3 good enough (in some sense) or is 7.3-2 a better bet?  > K >I suppose the same question could be applied to patches -- but then again, " >maybe you apply the same process. >  >Thanks, dave. >  >    > ( The answer to that one is, "It depends!"  G In some environments; e.g. academia, you can do a VMS upgrade whenever  F you feel like it.  In others, e.g. a production environment where the C business depends on the system and applications being available an  4 upgrade can be a very complex and expensive project.  I I recall one upgrade I took part in a few years ago in which we upgraded  B VMS/VAX V5.5-2 to  6.2 while simultaneously upgrading to the then H current version of RDB, ACMS, and thirty-nine other layered products.   I We had to build a test cluster with cloned disks and benchmark it.  Then  F we upgraded the test cluster and bench marked it again.   Every batch C job was run in both the original and upgraded environments and the  I results compared for accuracy and performance.   A lot of RDB tuning was  D done and benchmarks were repeated.  Then we upgraded the production @ cluster on a long weekend.   We invested 3,250 man hours in the E project.  It was done this way because, if the system had not worked  H properly on Monday morning, we would have been out of business until we " could restore the status quo ante.  F You don't invest that amount of resources unless you bloody well have F to.   If we had not needed some of the features in the new version of  RDB we would not have done it.  I I did another one a couple of years later for a subsequent employer.  We  F needed to upgrade to faster hardware.   The faster hardware would not H run the older version of VMS that we were using so the hardware upgrade F required that we also upgrade VMS.   The VMS upgrade required that we G also upgrade Oracle.   The Oracle upgrade required that we upgrade the  H ERP package.  I was never told just how much that one cost but $500,000 G seems like a reasonable estimate.  About $100,000 of that went for two  ' Alpha server ES40s, the rest was labor.    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2005 12:34:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Upgrading VMS+ Message-ID: <3jciutFng4ceU2@individual.net>   0 In article <UsOdncm8is-AKk3fRVn-pQ@comcast.com>,6 	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes: > David D Miller wrote:  >  >> >> >>G'day: >>K >>How do you make a decision to upgrade?  Is your decision ruled by Policy? I >>By convenience (nothing else to do today)?  Or do you have an objective  >>criteria that you apply? >>L >>Specifically, is 7.3 good enough (in some sense) or is 7.3-2 a better bet? >>L >>I suppose the same question could be applied to patches -- but then again,# >>maybe you apply the same process.  >> >>Thanks, dave.  >> >>   >>* > The answer to that one is, "It depends!" > I > In some environments; e.g. academia, you can do a VMS upgrade whenever   > you feel like it.      Whatever gave you that idea?  G >                   In others, e.g. a production environment where the  E > business depends on the system and applications being available an  6 > upgrade can be a very complex and expensive project.  H And you think academia doesn't have the same requirements?  When classesF are in session, the systems must be available.  Students pay for theirF education and schools have responsibilities in accord with taking thatF money.  Academia is just as much a business as manufacturing, only the end product is different.    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:35:21 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <kerry.main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: Upgrading VMSR Message-ID: <FD827B33AB0D9C4E92EACEEFEE2BA2FB651198@tayexc19.americas.cpqcorp.net>   > -----Original Message-----= > From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net]=20  > Sent: July 10, 2005 1:50 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: Re: Upgrading VMS >=20 > David D Miller wrote:  >=20 > >  > > 	 > >G'day:  > > > > >How do you make a decision to upgrade?  Is your decision=20 > ruled by Policy?@ > >By convenience (nothing else to do today)?  Or do you have=20 > an objective > >criteria that you apply?  > > B > >Specifically, is 7.3 good enough (in some sense) or is 7.3-2=20 > a better bet?  > > @ > >I suppose the same question could be applied to patches --=20 > but then again, $ > >maybe you apply the same process. > >  > >Thanks, dave. > >  > > =20  > > * > The answer to that one is, "It depends!" >=20B > In some environments; e.g. academia, you can do a VMS upgrade=20
 > whenever=20 J > you feel like it.  In others, e.g. a production environment where the=20G > business depends on the system and applications being available an=20 6 > upgrade can be a very complex and expensive project. >=20A > I recall one upgrade I took part in a few years ago in which=20  > we upgraded=20F > VMS/VAX V5.5-2 to  6.2 while simultaneously upgrading to the then=20@ > current version of RDB, ACMS, and thirty-nine other layered=20 > products.  =209 > We had to build a test cluster with cloned disks and=20  > benchmark it.  Then=20J > we upgraded the test cluster and bench marked it again.   Every batch=20G > job was run in both the original and upgraded environments and the=20 B > results compared for accuracy and performance.   A lot of RDB=20 > tuning was=20 H > done and benchmarks were repeated.  Then we upgraded the production=20D > cluster on a long weekend.   We invested 3,250 man hours in the=20I > project.  It was done this way because, if the system had not worked=20 : > properly on Monday morning, we would have been out of=20 > business until we=20$ > could restore the status quo ante. >=20J > You don't invest that amount of resources unless you bloody well have=20J > to.   If we had not needed some of the features in the new version of=20  > RDB we would not have done it. >=20? > I did another one a couple of years later for a subsequent=20  > employer.  We=20J > needed to upgrade to faster hardware.   The faster hardware would not=20; > run the older version of VMS that we were using so the=20  > hardware upgrade=20 J > required that we also upgrade VMS.   The VMS upgrade required that we=20? > also upgrade Oracle.   The Oracle upgrade required that we=20  > upgrade the=20? > ERP package.  I was never told just how much that one cost=20  > but $500,000=20 > > seems like a reasonable estimate.  About $100,000 of that=20 > went for two=20 ) > Alpha server ES40s, the rest was labor.  >=20 >=20  H Yep, while some folks are sometimes amazed at how many VAX's and Alpha'sG running older versions of OpenVMS are out there, he reality is that the B same can also be said for Solaris, AIX and likely even to a larger extent - Windows.   E While there are certainly good reasons for keeping relatively current H (within 1 or 2 point releases), one always needs to balance the costs of the upgrade to the business.=20   H However, one of the biggest issues associated with poor IT Management isG that IT gets ignored for to long, then the costs of being to far behind  become exponentially higher.=20   E What typically happens - all of a sudden there is a critical piece of H new business functionality required that requires new systems and/or newE OS versions. Cust single billing using Web App and/or J2EE/.Net based H requirement as an example. Because the upgrade to this new functionalityH has so many things that need to be changed on so many different systems,H the cost in terms of what needs to be tested is much, much higher. Then,D when the IT shop gets pressured to upgrade in timeframes that do notF allow proper testing, something goes wrong and the business only views# the issue as "IT screwed up again".   B I recently was involved in the multi-platform inventory of a largeG financial institution. They had approx 6,800 servers in their 4 main NA D datacenters, but they had a much larger number if you included theirG regional sites as well. Solaris 2/7/8, Windows NT3.51 (one system), NT4 E (some W2K), AIX 4, HP-UX v10.x, Tru64 V4 was what they were primarily G running. Numerous mergers with different IT environments, lack of focus E on IT (cost vs. competitive advantage), internal politics etc had all < combined to result in a real mess from an IT perspective.=20  F And of course the App's folks thought they had good App inventory, butG ask them for a list of servers where each App was installed and all you H got was the deer in the lights look. "Go talks to the OPS folks" was the< std answer who of course, only knew the OS and HW inventory.  D This may be a case of a company with poor IT management focus, but IG would suggest that there are a huge number of companies out there today 5 that are very much in the same boat as this Customer.   A On a related note, a recent IT magazine was reviewing why so many C Companies were still using W2K and not W2K3. One of the interesting F comments was "fear of the unknown" i.e. Techies were afraid of the newC W2K3 version and after spending so much time getting W2K relatively E stable, were reluctant to start over again with the new W2K3 version.   G Yes, there needs to be a balance between always upgrading to the latest D version and the needs of the business. However, I would also suggestH that the future needs of the business *requires* that the IT environmentF *not* be ignored to the point where it becomes the equivalent of a runD down slum where future support costs rise exponentially and IT is no8 longer viewed as a competitive advantage to the company.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax: 613-591-4477  kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20  4 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:04:20 -0400 3 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net>  Subject: Re: Upgrading VMS0 Message-ID: <M5WdnaAtrY-IyEzfRVn-pw@comcast.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  1 >In article <UsOdncm8is-AKk3fRVn-pQ@comcast.com>, 7 >	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:  >    >  >>David D Miller wrote:  >> >>     >>	 >>>G'day:  >>> L >>>How do you make a decision to upgrade?  Is your decision ruled by Policy?J >>>By convenience (nothing else to do today)?  Or do you have an objective >>>criteria that you apply?  >>> M >>>Specifically, is 7.3 good enough (in some sense) or is 7.3-2 a better bet?  >>> M >>>I suppose the same question could be applied to patches -- but then again, $ >>>maybe you apply the same process. >>>  >>>Thanks, dave. >>>  >>>  >>> 	 >>>        >>> * >>The answer to that one is, "It depends!" >>I >>In some environments; e.g. academia, you can do a VMS upgrade whenever   >>you feel like it.    >>     >> >  >Whatever gave you that idea?  >  >    > G >>                  In others, e.g. a production environment where the  E >>business depends on the system and applications being available an  6 >>upgrade can be a very complex and expensive project. >>     >> > I >And you think academia doesn't have the same requirements?  When classes G >are in session, the systems must be available.  Students pay for their G >education and schools have responsibilities in accord with taking that G >money.  Academia is just as much a business as manufacturing, only the  >end product is different. >  >bill  >  >    > C What gave me that idea was working for Princeton University for 24  I years!!  For the last ten of those years I managed from one to eight VMS  G systems!  My systems, however, were not "business critical".  I was on  B the research side of the house and my systems were mostly used by B faculty, staff, and graduate students.   Those were the days when I backing up an RA81 to reel-to-reel tape (a  TU80 I think), with /VERIFY,  G took about fourteen hours with a new tape being required about once an  G hour!   Failure of an upgrade would not have put the University out of  I business.  It would not even have put the laboratory out of business; it  H would just have meant another fourteen hour day for me while I restored  the system.   I I also worked, for a few months, at the Philadelphia College of Textiles  E and Science (Now Philadelphia University).  I did upgrades there but  C there was a business case for them; they used the system to handle  F E-mail for about 2000 students, faculty, and staff members.  UCX 2.0E A just wasn't up to the job and I was asked to fix it.   Fixing it  I involved upgrading VMS V5.4 to V5.5-2 and UCX from 2.0E to 3.0, 3.1, 3.2  I and then 3.3 and ultimately applying fourteen ECO's to that.  After that  H it almost worked.  I did the VMS upgrade somewhere in the middle of the G UCX upgrades because it was required for the next one.  Karol Zielonko  F (UCX SMTP maintainer) will probably never forget those four months; I 
 wish I could!     H Most of the systems I have worked with in the ten years since then have C been business critical and could not be upgraded without extensive  " planning, and preliminary testing.  H My experience may be atypical but I think there are very few situations C where a business will upgrade a critical system just because a new  D release comes out.  If the new version does not fix problems or add F features that will have a positive effect on the bottom line, it just  doesn't happen.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.382 ************************