1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 11 Jul 2005	Volume 2005 : Issue 384       Contents:. Re: alpha instruction set - free to implement? Re: DECnet over DSSI Re: DECnet over DSSI Re: DECnet over DSSI Re: DECnet over DSSIP Re: Finding OpenVMS Programming Examples in HP's Natural Language Search   EnginP Finding OpenVMS Programming Examples in HP's Natural Language Search Engine Engi/ Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there / Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) ) Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility) / NetBackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP4 release now available D Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacksD Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program  Re: Upgrading VMS   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 12:24:32 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 7 Subject: Re: alpha instruction set - free to implement? 3 Message-ID: <bsn8ZfOzofqq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <Y4SdnQLk-d42lU3fRVn-rg@rcn.net>, Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> writes:  L > The pdp11 had an ISA patent but as I recall it was on the MARK instructionL > which early pdp11 processor handbooks referred to as essential for the new > pdp11 calling standard.   F    I'd like to get a copy of that calling standard.  MARK was the only<    user-mode PDP-11 instruction not included in the 11/780'sH    compatability mode instruction set.  So I pulled out my PDP-11 manualH    and found that MARK worked on both my 11/34 and my 11/44, but I could?    never figure out a calling standard that made it of any use.   H    I don't have my PDP-11 manuals with me, but IIRC it seemed to requireH    a calling standard that was halfway between stack based and non-stackG    based calling conventions.  I could force it to work on a stack, but <    only if I actually put the MARK instruction on the stack.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:42:52 GMT ) From: Olaf Krugre <olafkrugre@kansas.net>  Subject: Re: DECnet over DSSI 4 Message-ID: <Xns96907454750A8976235896123@68.6.19.6>  G On 08 Jul 2005, "H Vlems" <nospam@what.ever.com> posted some news:7d2ac ) $42cec621$513b9a2c$8296@news.versatel.nl:   C > Years ago it was possible to run DECnet over the CI bus. IIRC it   involved+ > loading the CYDRIVER to make that happen. 4 > The question is: can DECnet run over the DSSI bus? > If so, with what driver? >  > Hans >  >    CI Clusters:  D SYSGEN> CONNECT CNA0 /NOADAPT /DRIVER=CNDRIVER (CI Data Link Driver)  0 NCP> DEFINE CIRCUIT CI-0.1 STATE ON TRIBUTARY 1 0 NCP> DEFINE CIRCUIT CI-0.2 STATE ON TRIBUTARY 2   I Worked fine in a CI based cluster with some 8800's, 8650's, 785, 750 and  G a 4000-300 (With a CIQBA).  Ran DECnet on the 750 and 785 that way for  A years.  The 785 had a DELUA in it.  Getting the circuits defined  0 correctly took a little extra effort initially.   I DSSI runs exactly the same protocols as CI and is identical to CI except  H for the physical connections.  They both use the PADRIVER.  Never tried . to load and use the CNDRIVER on a DSSI system.  I DSSI is kinda slow, maybe 4-5 MBps tops, on a good day, downhill, with a  G very fast mule leading the way...  At least one system would require a  J functioning ethernet adapter.  Might make for an interesting experiment.    G This might help a bit although it contains no mention of DSSI circuits  E employed in the manner which you seek.  It does cover the CI portion  > which if the DSSI bus could be used, should be very similar.    H http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/DECNET_OVMS_NET_ MAN.PDF   I "PORT: A communications device, such as DSSI, CI, Ethernet or FDDI. Each  F CI or DSSI bus is a different local port, named PAA0, PAB0, PAC0 etc. : All Ethernet and FDDI busses make up a single PEA0 port."   * http://mirror.sg.depaul.edu/pub/usenet-by-> group/news./OpenVMS_Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ),_Part_8_9   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:09:33 GMT # From: Beach Runner <bob@nospam.com>  Subject: Re: DECnet over DSSI < Message-ID: <NrsAe.151058$VH2.56436@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>   Beach Runner wrote:    >  >  > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: > + >> "H Vlems" <nospam@what.ever.com> writes:  >> >>E >>> Years ago it was possible to run DECnet over the CI bus. IIRC it   >>> involved- >>> loading the CYDRIVER to make that happen. 6 >>> The question is: can DECnet run over the DSSI bus? >>> If so, with what driver? >> >> >>K >> CYDRIVER. CI and DSSI both use compatable port drivers. There is a short L >> `how to' in the FM I seem to remember. I run it between my home 4000-700s >> for some time.    >  >  > E > Yes, DSSI is still supported, and you can mix, CI, DSSI, ethernet,  6 > memory channel, as long as they call see each other. > G > Since DSSI is so close to SCSI you wonder why SCS didn't run on SCSI  % > clusters.  Maybe FDDI will be next.  >  > The future is 10 gb ethernet.  >  >> >>  + I misread it, no  DECNET over dssi, or scsi    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:39:21 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> Subject: Re: DECnet over DSSI 2 Message-ID: <datp9q$6r9$1@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk>  0 "Beach Runner" <bob@nospam.com> wrote in message7 news:y1gAe.228037$w15.180272@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...   F > Since DSSI is so close to SCSI you wonder why SCS didn't run on SCSI > clusters.   M As I understand it, electrically they are very much the same but the protocol I layer is much more like CI. It would have been possible, I guess, I doubt 2 commodity cards would be optimized for it, though.   > Maybe FDDI will be next.  # Hmm? SCS over FDDI works just fine.    > The future is 10 gb ethernet.   5 Yeah,  give or take a niche low latency interconnect.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 12:04:57 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: DECnet over DSSI 3 Message-ID: <N7lYGBLQRHsW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <42CEEA2A.EE5D7BE8@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes: > No! No ! No !  > L > Everyone knows that DSSI is just the Digital proprietary implementation of > SCSI. R > Everyone knows that VMS is now able to pass SCS traffic over SCSI between nodes.  .    Guess again.  Only the cables are the same.  O > Therefore, it is perfectly logical to ask whether DECNET could be routed over  > DSSI :-) :-) :-)  A    DECnet could be routed over continuous tape loop if you really I    wanted to.  But you may have to implement the lowest layers yourself.  C    I think the OP was interested in whether DEC supplied the lowest )    layers for DECnet over DSSI and/or CI.      P > Would it be philosophically possible to route DECNET over SCSI between 2 nodesO > ? Is there a huge difference in transport level phisolophy between DECNET and  > SCS ?   G    Yes, it would be possible to implement DECnet over SCSI.  Yes, there H    is a hughe difference between a general purpose networking stack likeK    DECnet which works on high speed LANs and low speed WANs and on a great  D    number of OS, and SCS which works only on high speed networks and    only for one OS.    > And the next question:  3 > 	Will DECNET-4 be updated on VAX to support USB ?   2    I don't theink VAXen will ever get USB support.  P > 	Will HP install support in its digital cameras and printers to support Decnet
 > over USB ?    H    There are already lots of camera and printers supported over USB with1    nothing so complex as an entire network stack.   L > 	Will HP pressure other manufacturers to support DECNET in their cameras ?  F    What possible reason would anyone have for adding any network stack    to such a simple problem?     H > 	(And the next step will be DECNET in mobile handsets via BluTooth :-) > % > Sorry, it's friday afternoon... :-)   F    Maybe you want DECnet support for MASSBUS drives while your at it?     (It's Monday AM).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:01:29 +0200 3 From: Michael Unger <spam.to.unger@spamgourmet.com> Y Subject: Re: Finding OpenVMS Programming Examples in HP's Natural Language Search   Engin + Message-ID: <3jfcgeFpp28nU1@individual.net>   - On 2005-07-11 13:39, "Keith Cayemberg" wrote:   K > As already reported in the following thread HP's Natural Language Search  H > Assistant has made it more difficult to find OpenVMS specific content. >  > [...]  > @ > http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+VMS&source=10005 >                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^ I > You can replace the "Example+VMS" with the keywords you wish to search. = > Important for selecting the VMS Engineering content is the   > "&source=1000" at the end. >  > 3 > Here are my updated Programming Examples links...  >  >  > ACMS Examples - Ask VMS A > http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+ACMS&source=1000              ^^^^^^^^^  >  > [...]   2 Is "ciber.net" a part of HP?? I don't think so ...   | Ciber Network Services, Inc. | 252 Fernwood Avenue  | Edison, NJ 08837 | US |  | Domain Name: CIBER.NET |  | Administrative Contact: ! |    Edelman, Jeff		...@CIBER.NET  |    Ciber, Inc. |    252 FERNWOOD AVE  |    EDISON, NJ 08837-3839 |    US % |    (732)225-1700 fax: (732)225-1973  |  | Technical Contact: |    CIBER, Inc.		...@CIBER.NET  |    252 FERNWOOD AVE  |    EDISON, NJ 08837-3839 |    US # |    732-225-1700 fax: 732-225-1973  |   | Record expires on 23-Jun-2010.  | Record created on 24-Jun-1997.4 | Database last updated on 11-Jul-2005 09:30:58 EDT.  # (From "whois.networksolutions.com")    Michael    --  ; Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. 5 My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:39:51 +0200 0 From: Keith Cayemberg <keith.cayemberg@arcor.de>Y Subject: Finding OpenVMS Programming Examples in HP's Natural Language Search Engine Engi B Message-ID: <42d25a88$0$18016$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net>  I As already reported in the following thread HP's Natural Language Search  F Assistant has made it more difficult to find OpenVMS specific content.   http://tinylink.com/?B7PUXhhdNH   A Many years of OpenVMS Engineering support documentation was once  0 directly available from the Ask VMS Site here...   Ask VMS T http://web.archive.org/web/20020201224123/http://www3.compaq.com/support/ask/askvms/  L However, is now buried in the HP's Natural Language Search Assistant here...   http://h71029.www7.hp.com/  G A couple years ago, I made a list of Programming Examples available at  I the Ask VMS site organized by language or utility. These links no longer  H work correctly, so I have done some experimentation on the HP's Natural F Language Search Assistant and found the following formula which works @ much better (not perfect) at limiting the search to the OpenVMS  Engineering Support content.  > http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+VMS&source=10003                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^ G You can replace the "Example+VMS" with the keywords you wish to search. ; Important for selecting the VMS Engineering content is the   "&source=1000" at the end.    1 Here are my updated Programming Examples links...      ACMS Examples - Ask VMS ? http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+ACMS&source=1000    ADA Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+ADA&source=1000   APL Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+APL&source=1000   ALL-IN-1 Examples - Ask VMS G http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+ALL%20IN%201&source=1000    BASIC Examples - Ask VMS@ http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+BASIC&source=1000   BLISS Examples - Ask VMS@ http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+BLISS&source=1000   C++ Examples - Ask VMSB http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+C%2B%2B&source=1000   CMS Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+CMS&source=1000   COBOL Examples - Ask VMS@ http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+COBOL&source=1000   Datatrieve Examples - Ask VMS E http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+Datatrieve&source=1000    DCL Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+DCL&source=1000   DECforms Examples - Ask VMS C http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+DECforms&source=1000    FMS Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+FMS&source=1000   Fortran Examples - Ask VMSB http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+Fortran&source=1000   GKS Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+GKS&source=1000   Lexical Examples - Ask VMSB http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+Lexical&source=1000   LISP Examples - Ask VMS ? http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+LISP&source=1000    LSE Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+LSE&source=1000   MACRO Examples - Ask VMS@ http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+MACRO&source=1000   Motif Examples - Ask VMS@ http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+Motif&source=1000   OPS5 Examples - Ask VMS ? http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+OPS5&source=1000    Pascal Examples - Ask VMS A http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+Pascal&source=1000    PHIGS Examples - Ask VMS@ http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+PHIGS&source=1000  / PL/I Examples - Ask VMS (search for Example+PL) = http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+PL&source=1000    SORT Examples - Ask VMS ? http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+SORT&source=1000    TDMS Examples - Ask VMS ? http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+TDMS&source=1000    TPU Examples - Ask VMS> http://hp.ciber.net/hp/match.asp?query=Example+TPU&source=1000     Cheers!    Keith Cayemberg    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 12:29:40 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there3 Message-ID: <BRk1SB5zeV4X@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3jcj9pFng4ceU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > I > This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would bet H > there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are/ > running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1.   C    Universities are not representative.  We run no Linux and almost E    no UNIX on Alpha here, almost all VMS.  But I but DECstations from >    UMD loaded with Linux and write VMS over them all the time.  7 >>                         the Unix-oid update of VMS.   > = > Well, there goes any credibility this article may have had.  >   D    The attribute is proper.  VMS was renamed OpenVMS when two things    happened:  "       1)  the POSIX system shipped0       2)  the Alpha port was about ready to ship  >    Calling VMS with POSIX loaded "Unix-oid" is understandable.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2005 17:45:22 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)8 Subject: Re: Less than 1 Gorham of VMS systems out there+ Message-ID: <3jfphiFp8pj4U1@individual.net>   3 In article <BRk1SB5zeV4X@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X > In article <3jcj9pFng4ceU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>  J >> This I doubt.  I don't know how many systems there are, but I would betI >> there are a lot more VAX and Alpha's running Unix/Linux than there are 0 >> running VMS.  The ratio here is about 5 to 1. > + >    Universities are not representative.     E May not be representrative of your world, but they make up a a goodly B number of the existing systems.  Probably also account for a large* percentage of the hobbyist computer users.  D >                                         We run no Linux and almost- >    no UNIX on Alpha here, almost all VMS.     E Don't know where you work, so I can't draw any conclusions from that.   F >                                           But I but DECstations from@ >    UMD loaded with Linux and write VMS over them all the time.  I Ummmm.....  I thought DECStations were MIPS.  How do you run VMS on them? H And if you meant VAXStations, Linux on VAX was never accomplished to theG best of my knowledge. Their page on Sourceforge is still dated 2001 and G seems to point to something less than functional.   So I am, again, not  sure what you mean.    > 8 >>>                         the Unix-oid update of VMS.  >>  > >> Well, there goes any credibility this article may have had. >>   > F >    The attribute is proper.  VMS was renamed OpenVMS when two things >    happened: > $ >       1)  the POSIX system shipped2 >       2)  the Alpha port was about ready to ship > @ >    Calling VMS with POSIX loaded "Unix-oid" is understandable.  5 Heresy!! Heresy!!  Bring out the rack and hot irons!!    bill    --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2005 10:52:00 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)+ Message-ID: <3jf1agFoqhk7U1@individual.net>   + In article <42D1C915.796E3802@comcast.net>, 5 	David J Dachtera <djesys.nospam@comcast.net> writes:  > D > Super! ...though I suspect the hardware that would require (a tapeI > library) might be a bit pricey for hobbyists. The OpenVMS Faithful tend G > to resemble church mice more than executive-types (rolling in dough).    A Not necessarily.  I have a TL812 that I got for nothing and it is A available to anyone near enough to pick it up for the same price.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 06:48:48 -0700; From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> 2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)C Message-ID: <1121089728.921457.179710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    David J Dachtera wrote:  > Jeff Cameron wrote: O > > I'm trying to work out a deal with MONTGAR to provide hobbyist licenses for 2 > > RLM and TapeControl media management software. > D > Super! ...though I suspect the hardware that would require (a tapeI > library) might be a bit pricey for hobbyists. The OpenVMS Faithful tend G > to resemble church mice more than executive-types (rolling in dough).  >   B Sometimes you get lucky... I picked up a fully operational 2-driveG TL892 on Ebay last year for less than $500.  Not "cheap" but well worth C the price.  Since MRU, ABS and SLS are not included in the Hobbyist > license I have been looking for a robot control too.  The onlyD open-source one I can find no longer supports VMS (it's "broken" and> considered "unfixable") so one from MTI would be most welcome.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:39:33 -0400 - From: William Webb <william.w.webb@gmail.com> 2 Subject: Re: Looking for MRU (Media Robot utility)7 Message-ID: <8660a3a1050711093942e47edc@mail.gmail.com>   7 On 11 Jul 2005 06:48:48 -0700, johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com ! <johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com> wrote:  >=20 >=20 > David J Dachtera wrote:  > > Jeff Cameron wrote: L > > > I'm trying to work out a deal with MONTGAR to provide hobbyist licens= es for4 > > > RLM and TapeControl media management software. > > F > > Super! ...though I suspect the hardware that would require (a tapeK > > library) might be a bit pricey for hobbyists. The OpenVMS Faithful tend I > > to resemble church mice more than executive-types (rolling in dough).  > >  >=20D > Sometimes you get lucky... I picked up a fully operational 2-driveI > TL892 on Ebay last year for less than $500.  Not "cheap" but well worth E > the price.  Since MRU, ABS and SLS are not included in the Hobbyist @ > license I have been looking for a robot control too.  The onlyF > open-source one I can find no longer supports VMS (it's "broken" and@ > considered "unfixable") so one from MTI would be most welcome. >=20 >=20   John,  =20 A I believe that the license for MRU was bundled with the TL892; in = other words, much like the DECservers of old, if you have the E hardware, you have the right to run MRU (and it's not a PAK product).    WWWebb   --=20 C NOTE: This email address is only used for noncommerical VMS-related  correspondence. C All unsolicited commercial email will be deemed to be a request for 8 services pursuant to the terms and conditions located at# http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/e/webbww/    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:46:30 +0100 ' From: "Alan Fay" <alan.fay@veritas.com> 8 Subject: NetBackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP4 release now available4 Message-ID: <dau0om$b0c$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>  ( The NetBackup OpenVMS 5.0 MP4 GA Release    C The downloadable 5.0 MP4 (Maintenance Pack Four) upgrade release is C now available for both VAX and Alpha. This release supports 5.0 MP3 A and 5.1 MP3 master and media servers. Please see the full release B notes in the NetBackup User's Guide for OpenVMS which is available from VERITAS support:-  B ftp://ftp.emea.veritas.com/pub/support/Products/NetBackup_OpenVMS/     nbu_v5_0_vms_pdf.zip     Alan Fay VERITAS Software Roseville Engineering    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:20:45 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 1 Message-ID: <TcoAe.198$Qu4.11707@news.xtra.co.nz>   ; "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spoamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message & news:42D151ED.3DD354DC@teksavvy.com...< > Re: Solar panels covering vegetation on a planetary scale. > I > 1- Ever considered micro power generation where solar panels are put on  roofs A > of homes and buildings, thus not covering any vegetated areas ?   G Do you honestly believe there is nothing living on your roof? You can't G get out of it - there is only so much solar energy coming in per square A meter. If you catch it for your own use you've taken it away from  something else.   G > Until they get fusion running, we will not have any magic solution to  energy > problems.   I That's true. But it seems that way too many proponents of the alternative A (aka as green) sources of energy think that they have the answer.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:46:04 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 1 Message-ID: <CAoAe.200$Qu4.12007@news.xtra.co.nz>   5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 7 news:MoCdnf6nxKe_Wk3fRVn-sQ@metrocastcablevision.com...  > Lurker wrote: 9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message ; > > news:FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com...   C I will ignore your insults - looks like it's the best arguments you - have up your sleeve. Let's look at the facts:   > > (I've certainly never seen a solar panel shading anything inH > this part of the world that would have suffered from being deprived of > sunlight).  F Are you serious? What you have said above only allows 2 possibilities:  ( 1: There is no shadow cast by the panel.. 2: Whatever is under it doesn't need sunlight.   Which one will it be?   8 And stop calling names pls, it's not even funny anymore.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2005 07:21:05 GMT$ From: "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 7 Message-ID: <Xns96905FA7A5110dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126>   H %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Lurker wrote in news:CAoAe.200$Qu4.12007@news.xtra.co.nz  7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 9 > news:MoCdnf6nxKe_Wk3fRVn-sQ@metrocastcablevision.com...  >> Lurker wrote:: >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message< >> > news:FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com... > E > I will ignore your insults - looks like it's the best arguments you / > have up your sleeve. Let's look at the facts:  > ? >> (I've certainly never seen a solar panel shading anything in I >> this part of the world that would have suffered from being deprived of 
 >> sunlight).  > H > Are you serious? What you have said above only allows 2 possibilities: > * > 1: There is no shadow cast by the panel.0 > 2: Whatever is under it doesn't need sunlight. >  > Which one will it be?   D What's wrong with putting the solar panels on the roofs of existing F structures?  I believe under the criteria you offer that qualifies as  point 2.  H Funnily enough, anytime I see solar panels that's the usual placement.  ; Not over gardens or farmland as you imply will be required.      Doc. --  G OpenVMS:     Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. G http://www.openvms-rocks.com    Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:37:25 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 1 Message-ID: <_cqAe.217$Qu4.13473@news.xtra.co.nz>   / "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote in message 1 news:Xns96905FA7A5110dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126... J > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Lurker wrote in news:CAoAe.200$Qu4.12007@news.xtra.co.nz > 9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message ; > > news:MoCdnf6nxKe_Wk3fRVn-sQ@metrocastcablevision.com...  > >> Lurker wrote:< > >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message> > >> > news:FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com...  A > >> (I've certainly never seen a solar panel shading anything in K > >> this part of the world that would have suffered from being deprived of  > >> sunlight).  > > J > > Are you serious? What you have said above only allows 2 possibilities: > > , > > 1: There is no shadow cast by the panel.2 > > 2: Whatever is under it doesn't need sunlight. > >  > > Which one will it be?  > E > What's wrong with putting the solar panels on the roofs of existing 
 > structures?   ? Well nothing much, that's how it's done here too with hot-water D tanks sitting on top of the roofs to save the electricity on heating
 them. But ...   H > Funnily enough, anytime I see solar panels that's the usual placement.= > Not over gardens or farmland as you imply will be required.   , Have you looked under those tanks or panels?0 Do you really believe that's what the eco-system8 would be like without those things sitting on top of it?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:59:07 +1200 $ From: "Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 1 Message-ID: <lxqAe.218$Qu4.13939@news.xtra.co.nz>   / "Doc." <doc@openvms-rocks.com> wrote in message 1 news:Xns96905FA7A5110dcovmsrox@212.100.160.126... J > %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Lurker wrote in news:CAoAe.200$Qu4.12007@news.xtra.co.nz  H > Funnily enough, anytime I see solar panels that's the usual placement.= > Not over gardens or farmland as you imply will be required.   ; It will be. OK, if you only want to have a few odd watts to < supplement your your mains that's probably ok. But you can't> escape the fact that there is only so many watts coming in per9 square meter per second. If you can run your household on 5 the amount of power coming to your roof - good on you = (don't forget there are nights and bad weather btw - where do  you store the extra capacity?)  8 Basically, what you are trying to argue against is a law7 of thermodynamics. Loosely speaking it says that energy ? is only as useful as it it concentrated (you need a heat source : and a heat sink for any engine to work and it's efficiency? is determined solely by the difference in relative temperatures  of the source and the sink)    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2005 10:55:25 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks + Message-ID: <3jf1gsFoqhk7U2@individual.net>   1 In article <CAoAe.200$Qu4.12007@news.xtra.co.nz>, ' 	"Lurker" <nowhere@nothing.com> writes: 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message 9 > news:MoCdnf6nxKe_Wk3fRVn-sQ@metrocastcablevision.com...  >> Lurker wrote:: >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message< >> > news:FoSdnTToh5Ts503fRVn-tg@metrocastcablevision.com... > E > I will ignore your insults - looks like it's the best arguments you / > have up your sleeve. Let's look at the facts:  > ? >> (I've certainly never seen a solar panel shading anything in I >> this part of the world that would have suffered from being deprived of 
 >> sunlight).  > H > Are you serious? What you have said above only allows 2 possibilities: > * > 1: There is no shadow cast by the panel.0 > 2: Whatever is under it doesn't need sunlight. >  > Which one will it be?  > : > And stop calling names pls, it's not even funny anymore.   B I wouldn't expect that.  He is obviously such an elitist that evenC dealing with us ignorant unwashed is unbearable for him.  We should ; just bow down and accept that he knows what is best for us.    bill     --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:32:06 -0400 ( From: Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net>M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks = Message-ID: <soOdnV15mvYlxU_fRVn-pQ@metrocastcablevision.com>    Bill Gunshannon wrote:   ...   ,    He is obviously such an elitist that even: > dealing with us ignorant unwashed is unbearable for him.   Wrong yet again, Bill:  E 1.  I'm not an elitist - just competent, able to recognize those who  , aren't, and not hesitant to call them on it.  H 2.  If I couldn't bear dealing with the likes of you, I simply wouldn't H deal with the likes of you at all.  I do, however, lose interest fairly F quickly when it becomes apparent that you are most likely ineducable,   and have reached that point now.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2005 12:23:51 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks + Message-ID: <3jf6mnFpfgniU1@individual.net>   = In article <soOdnV15mvYlxU_fRVn-pQ@metrocastcablevision.com>, + 	Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > ...  > . >    He is obviously such an elitist that even; >> dealing with us ignorant unwashed is unbearable for him.  >  > Wrong yet again, Bill: > G > 1.  I'm not an elitist - just competent, able to recognize those who  . > aren't, and not hesitant to call them on it. > J > 2.  If I couldn't bear dealing with the likes of you, I simply wouldn't J > deal with the likes of you at all.  I do, however, lose interest fairly H > quickly when it becomes apparent that you are most likely ineducable, " > and have reached that point now. >    I rest my case.  Plonk....   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 08:33:45 -0700# From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks B Message-ID: <1121096025.194455.26960@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > WhoDat? wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote:  > >  > >>WhoDat? wrote: > >>H > >>>But, currently it's the Radical Muslims who are committing the most2 > >>>violent acts of terror on a world-wide scale. > >>/ > >>I guess you have a different point of view.  > >> > >  > > I > > I spoke against the IRAQ invasion before it happened and as I said in ( > > another posting, IMHO it was stupid. > D > The problem is not that it was stupid:  the problem is that it wasL > *wrong*, and that wrong keeps being exacerbated every day we remain there.    F Okay. I say stupid, you say wrong. The fact that it was so wrong in soE many ways and happened anyway contributes to my belief that it was an  act of stupidity.    > > But, the die has been cast.  > J > Indeed - and, as JF observed, the result has since even been ratified by< > the reelection of those leaders who so arrogantly cast it. >   F When someone says "The die has been cast" one usually understands thatD they mean the past is the past and we can't change the past so let'sC not keep dwelling upon it. Let's look ahead and deal with that. So, < stop bitching about the past, it's done, get on with things.  G > So the consequences are not only quite predictable but quite arguably J > appropriate - perhaps not from your point of view, but evidence suggests= > that throughout the world that viewpoint is a minority one.   5 What is my point of view? You seem to have missed it.   
 >  After all, H > when polled back in mid-2002 the vast majority of Canadians (well overG > 80%) felt that the U.S. was at least in part responsible for the 9/11 C > attacks - and that was *before* our Iraq debacle became continual  > front-page reading material. >   G Oh, a Canadian poll. Well, how could anyone argue with a Canadian poll? 9 I guess that's that on the subject, then. Close the book.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 10:07:00 -0700# From: "WhoDat?" <whohe@whoever.com> M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks C Message-ID: <1121101620.483037.285480@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>    Bill Todd wrote: > WhoDat? wrote: >  > ...  > 4 > > The non-Muslim world can NOT solve this problem. > J > How facilely you attempt to avoid responsibility simply by claiming thatH > we couldn't affect things anyway.  But, of course, you're wrong - and,L > as the law makes clear, ignorance is no excuse (or in this case, defense). >   D And, how do you know I'm not a Muslim? And, what law are you talkingE about? A law of nature? A law of Islam? All law? Try to be a bit less  obtuse.    > ...  > > >   The withdrawal of troops from Iraq now would not solve the > > problem. > J > Regardless of the truth (or lack thereof) of that assertion, it's really9 > not your decision to make, you know:  it's the Iraqis'.  >   D There again, you aren't looking at the situation through the lens ofG reality. The troops will be there until the troops are withdrawn by the   countries whose troops they are.   > > I > > The war in Iraq has developed into a war between the different Muslim B > > factions and would continue until one side defeated the other. > G > Do you have a few decades of personal experience in Iraqi politics to G > back that statement up with, or are you just blowing more Dubya-style  > smoke out of your ass? >   @ Are you not paying attention to the events in Iraq? Are you onlyE listening to the body counts? Do you really think anyone with decades F of personal experience in Iraqi politics would say that there is not a/ conflict between the different Muslim factions?    > > I > > As long as there are infidels alive, the jihdists will continue their J > > war of terror. It was going on before Iraq and it will continue after. > F > Gee, it's funny how we didn't notice it nearly so much a while back,I > isn't it?  It's not as if 'infidels' had just appeared spontaneously on ? > the face of the planet, like some previously-unknown species.  >   > You don't seem to be making a point here that's related to theD statement I made. What "it" are you talking about? Who didn't noticeD "it"? The world noticed the centuries old Muslim/Non-Muslim conflictF (is that it?). Even John-Q-American noticed it, but when it struck theC USA in such a direct way, it became front page news. By the way: an ? infidel is anyone who isn't Muslim. What is your point, anyway?   B > Being blind to the correlation between our own meddling in theirJ > backyard and the response they make to that meddling really won't changeL > the truth of the matter, but perhaps truth is not a high priority for you. >   F Who are you saying is blind [to the correlation...]? I see many peopleE who have not even attempted to learn anything about the Qur'an making 4 statements about the motivation of the Muslim world.  E Based upon your statements I can only conclude that your knowledge of  Islam is grossly lacking.    > > F > > The solution to eliminating jihad terrorism is in the hands of theF > > non-jhadidist Muslim community. The "moderate" Muslims as you say. > I > There is at least a grain of truth in that statement, but of course you 6 > immediately follow up by misinterpreting that grain: >  >   AsJ > > long as jihadists are tolerated in that community, and certain clericsK > > are allowed to preach jihad, there is nothing that the non-Muslim world  > > can do.  > > > Just why *do* you think that moderate Muslims tolerate (and,N > increasingly, support) jihad?  Something in their breakfast cereal, perhaps? >   , The Qur'an supports jihad. Do your homework.  A I'll snip the rest because your responses are based upon the same  apparent lack of knowledge.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2005 12:18:27 -0500; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) M Subject: Re: Now the UK Has it's own date in the history of al quiada attacks 3 Message-ID: <+uhidTc0FvVk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <1121015153.138110.283490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "AEF" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes: > I > Yeah, that's easy for you to say living in Canada! It's a little hotter  > down here in the States!!! >   5    Yeah, right.  It never gets above 50 F in Canada.       Maybe on your planet.  H    You might actually try traveling north of the Mason-Dixon line before    posting such nonsense.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:26:34 +1200 1 From: Tux Wonder-Dog <wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> " Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobby Program# Message-ID: <42d2486a@clear.net.nz>    Robert Deininger wrote:   4 > In article <42c006fa@clear.net.nz>, Tux Wonder-Dog% > <wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> wrote:  >  > F >>> Give me one improvement you would make - be realistic (every hobbyJ >>> costs something) even if you collected worms you would need a place to
 >>> put them.  >>L >>What I would like to see is the source code for the old-and-all-but-buriedD >>VMSes, the early numbered editions, say 3.xx or 5.xx but no later,
 >>releasedJ >>under a version of the MPL or CPL or suchlike.  (In other words, if it'sJ >>too old for anyone to get "trade secrets" out of, it's ripe for a publicH >>license release - IMHO ;)  It'd also be a neat alternative to *BSD for" >>code jockeys and kernel hackers. > < > Interesting idea, but I think it would be quite expensive. > L > To have a hope of protecting intellectual property, each module would haveL > to be evaluated by someone fairly familiar with the technical details.  ItI > would have to be an HP employee, or someone under contract with HP.  In E > practice, this means a VMS engineer would have to do the evaluation H > (probably consulting with lawyers frequently).  The project would thusJ > necessarily take away from future VMS functionality that the engineer(s) > could be working on instead. > K > There seem to be plenty of opportunities for hobbyist VMS code jockeys in I > getting popular applications ported to VMS.  Would expaning the playing > > field to include old versions of the OS itself help matters? >  > G >>A second wish - that reminders of the license get emailed to one from ? >>Encompass/DECUS, with the option to update/renew by replying.  >  > I like that idea.   . Thanks.  Sorry for the lateness of this reply.  H I think it could help.  It'd put the survival of VMS in the hands of itsH users, and out of the hands of bureaucrats.  And judging from VMS users'K comments, it's a task they are very well qualified for.  In that regard, my F proposal is just a subset of the original Hobbyist proposal - that theH actual users and hobbyists, are well served by having it in their hands,F and the company is also well served because it means more use of their	 software.   H Why I would make it only for the older releases, I've already explained.  I As far as taking a VMS engineer's time away from future enhancements, the F last few years have had a plethora of disquiet on the question of VMS'H survival.  If VMS's survival has been under threat, there must be a fairJ number of VMS engineers not doing a lot because of VMS' difficult past few years.  H I can't claim to speak for any, but I can imagine there are a number whoH would leap at the opportunity to get their hands on a project as big andJ complex as this would be.  I can imagine that HP's lawyers would also find it a fascinating opportunity.   - Just my 0.02c, inflation-adjusted, of course!   
 Wesley Parish  --  O "Good, late in to more rewarding well."  "Well, you tonight.  And I was U lookintelligent woman of Ming home.  I trust you with a tender silence."  I C get a word into my hands, a different and unbelike, probably - 'she D fortunate fat woman', wrong word.  I think to me, I justupid.G Let not emacs meta-X dissociate-press write your romantic dialogs...!!!    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:43:16 GMT  From: Evan <Evan@anonymous.ca> Subject: Re: Upgrading VMS- Message-ID: <EkxAe.226150$El.192759@pd7tw1no>    David D Miller wrote:  >  >  >  > G'day: > K > How do you make a decision to upgrade?  Is your decision ruled by Policy? I > By convenience (nothing else to do today)?  Or do you have an objective  > criteria that you apply? > L > Specifically, is 7.3 good enough (in some sense) or is 7.3-2 a better bet? > L > I suppose the same question could be applied to patches -- but then again,# > maybe you apply the same process.  >  > Thanks, dave.  >     B No one has mentioned the Sarbanes-Oxley type influence. Is this a F non-issue? Some friends were recently commenting that they were being I forced to upgrade other pieces of software (Oracle in particular) as the  H auditors would no longer certify the business as 'stable' (or whatever) H because it was reliant on software that had gone off support. Is this a > red herring or just a specific instance of agressive auditors?   Tx.    Evan   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2005.384 ************************